Coronavirus Death Thread

[Jimmy Floyd]

A fictional killer virus that can be stopped in a day by Brad Pitt would make for a decent film. Real ones are just a massive bore.

[Pepe]

Twelve Monkeys still one of the best things put on film ever.

[Manc]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/23/covid-quiz-listen-alongs-and-lockdown-parties-how-well-do-you-recall-the-pandemic

12/14

[Shindig]

9/14. Feels like a lifetime away.

[Jimmy Floyd]

12 too, legendary stuff. I'm an Eat Out To Help Out truther. Best thing that happened in the pandemic.

[niko_cee]

11.

Never heard of that listen along thing.

[Dave.]

14 for me. Do I win a prize?

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

6, shocking.

[Spikey M]

Just had a Covid Memory pop up on Facebook from May 2020 to see my post about my family going for a walk in the woods and the comments are just beautiful in hindsight. From the gentle "please be careful" from my Aunt, to the "we'll be under lockdown forever if everyone starts doing this" from some cunt I went to school with.

What times they were.

[Manc]

Bovid on the rise in Scotland.

[Magic]

Convinced we've just had it.

[Spikey M]

Probably time to lock the thread.

[Dark Soldier]

No mention of us all soon dying of Monkeypox eh lads. Cannot wait for lockdown 2.0. Will prob tip Giggles over the edge.

[Magic]

I think you'll find that's Mpox.

[Spikey M]

Racist Mancunian gammon.

[Dark Soldier]

Respect your elders, ya cunts.

[Yevrah]

I had Covid again recently. The brain fog it induces is proper odd.

[Manc]

Likewise. I struggled with exhaustion more than anything.

[Manc]

A fictional killer virus that can be stopped in a day by Brad Pitt would make for a decent film. Real ones are just a massive bore.

World War Z begs to differ.

[Pepe]

Twelve Monkeys (Ms?) is a top, top film.

[niko_cee]

It is, but Brad was trying kill the world in that one

[Magic]

I had Covid again recently. The brain fog it induces is proper odd.

Ah that explains a lot.

[Pepe]

:D

[Yevrah]

:D Our discussions were before the vid hit.

[Kikó]

Racist Mancunian gammon.

Mgam actually.

[Waffdon]

No mention of us all soon dying of Monkeypox eh lads. Cannot wait for lockdown 2.0. Will prob tip Giggles over the edge.

It’s in Sweden now. It’s coming home

[Spikey M]

Nothing happened when it was here last year or whenever. Zero deaths. Shite virus.

[Giggles]

I'll make sure to mask up when I'm bumming someone.

[Lofty]

More like Spunky Chops eh

[Dark Soldier]

fuckin bring on the lockdowns son fuckin yes

[Magic]

fuckin bring on the lockdowns son fuckin yes

I hope for this so much. So, so much.

[Shindig]

I'm scoping the new office out on Saturday so ... no.

[Waffdon]

So it’s the opposite of Covid? Younger people have the highest morality rate?

Seems a bit of an overreaction. 15,000 cases in 8 months in DRC who have 100 million fuckers roaming around. We were destroying that in 2020

[Lewis]

The over-fifties would be rioting in the streets if they had to stay indoors for young people.

[Jimmy Floyd]

For the amount of rogue bumming that goes on in Africa, 15,000 cases is pathetic.

[Magic]

Woke disease.

[Luke Emia]

I’m not a scientist… I’m Yevrah.

[Yevrah]

The over-fifties would be rioting in the streets if they had to stay indoors for young people.

The last time was handled so badly with no one in government having the balls to make a balanced decision at any point (obviously including the scientific advice, but not solely limited to it) that I don't think anyone would obey any rules imposed if this happens again in living memory unless there's news footage of people affected coughing up organs in the street.

And borderline forcing everyone to take a dogshit vaccine to unlock fun would not wash for shit.

[Shindig]

Won't we just be asking Africans who have returned form DRC to stay indoors and not touch anyone? Seems like an easier fix than last time.

[Yevrah]

Maybe, I know fuck all about Monkeypox and unless I or someone I care about gets struck down by it I intend to keep it that way.

[Manc]

Avoid the saunas Dark Soldier Jimmy Floyd.

[Magic]

Won't we just be asking Africans who have returned form DRC to stay indoors and not touch anyone? Seems like an easier fix than last time.

Sure better get the wardens on the beaches with survey forms.

[Kikó]

Yev on the ropes - "A team of scientists say it is “beyond reasonable doubt” the Covid pandemic started with infected animals sold at a market, rather than a laboratory leak."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy8095xjg4po

[niko_cee]

hoary bamboo rats

As if being a mere bamboo rat wasn't already a hard enough life.

[randomlegend]

What a surprise.

[Yevrah]

It's nice that it's taken scientists over four years to possibly prove a man, with no scientific background whatsoever, who doesn't even have a broom anymore, wrong.

But if they have, then fair enough.

[Spikey M]

What happened to your broom?

[niko_cee]

Racoon dogs happened.

[randomlegend]

It's nice that it's taken scientists over four years to possibly prove a man, with no scientific background whatsoever, who doesn't even have a broom anymore, wrong.

But if they have, then fair enough.

The reason for that is they have to actually prove it. Randomers on the internet such as Yevrah can just make whatever claims they want with no burden of proof. Just because something is wrong doesn't mean it's easy to prove it's wrong.

[Baz]

Got bored of superhero films.

[Yevrah]

The reason for that is they have to actually prove it. Randomers on the internet such as Yevrah can just make whatever claims they want with no burden of proof. Just because something is wrong doesn't mean it's easy to prove it's wrong.

Of course, but they proved the origin of Sars and Mers, in what, a year?

[randomlegend]

I'm sure if you think about your own job, there are tasks which to someone who is clueless would look equivalent but to you who understands them, one is obviously more complex than the other.

[Yevrah]

Again, of course and I am sympathetic, but this works both ways. Scientists were also claiming it hadn't come from a laboratoire when they didn't know it hadn't.

In any case, my real ire against all of this, which was the invited overreach of scientists on government policy and in turn, my life, has long since abated and the sun is shining again.

[randomlegend]

Again, of course and I am sympathetic, but this works both ways. Scientists were also claiming it hadn't come from a laboratoire when they didn't know it hadn't.


They claimed they thought they knew where it came from i.e. a market. They were right. Then people started claiming it came from a lab, so they have worked to prove beyond doubt it didn't.

SCIENCE cannot instantly know everything about everything. The SCIENCEtists made a (seemingly correct) deduction based on the evidence available at the time and have since worked to prove it. That is how it works and there is literally nothing wrong with any of it.

[Yevrah]

Fair points, very well put.

[Magic]

Fair points, very well put.

https://i.imgflip.com/1nhqil.jpg?a479640

[Yevrah]

No no Magic, unlike you I can accept when someone puts a persuasive and very well worded argument forward.

[Spikey M]

He's fishing for a reaction, so no doubt one of his slaves posted that for him.

[Magic]

No no Magic, unlike you I can accept when someone puts a persuasive and very well worded argument forward.

https://www.sideshow.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Mocking-SpongeBob.jpg

[Yevrah]

I don't know why but that made me lol. :D

[Pepe]

Thing with SCIENCE and SCIENTISTS is that there is not one massive group where everyone agrees on everything. While this group has strong evidence of A, another might think that B is more plausible. In any case, from what I remember, Yevrah did not have an issue with scientists doing science things. He had an issue with SCIENCE choosing its messaging based on what was politically palatable, not on what was factual.

Also, reading that article, I see the following statements from the group of scientists:


"We find a very consistent story in terms of this pointing - even at the level of a single stall - to the market as being the very likely origin of this particular pandemic," says Prof Kristian Andersen, from the Scripps Institute in the US.


The samples suggest, but do not prove, that Covid started more than once in the market with potentially two spillover events from animals to humans.


Prof Worobey said: “It's far beyond reasonable doubt that that this is how it happened”, and that other explanations for the data required "really quite fanciful absurd scenarios".


Prof Alice Hughes, from the University of Hong Kong, who was not involved in the analysis, said it was a “good study”.
“[But] without swabs from the actual animals in the market, which were not collected, we cannot obtain any higher certainty."


Prof James Wood, the co-director of Cambridge Infectious Diseases, said the study provided “very strong evidence” of the pandemic starting in wildlife stalls at the market. However, he said it could not be definitive because the samples were collected after the market closed, and the pandemic probably started weeks earlier.

So we have phrases such as "very likely", "very strong evidence", "not definitive", "suggest but not prove", and one "beyond reasonable doubt." I wonder which of those MEDIA will use as the headline?

"A team of scientists say it is “very likely but not definitve"" or "One scientist says it is “beyond reasonable doubt”" would not get as many clicks, I guess.

[Spikey M]

As always with this stuff, I expect there's a right-leaning publication somewhere that has reported this as "Covid Lab Leak Cannot Be Ruled Out".

The Media is quickly becoming pointless.

[Pepe]

Here you go:

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2024/09/19/animals-wuhan-market-covid-origin-coronavirus/stories/202409190096


“The results we see are consistent with infected animals, but we cannot prove that they were,” said Florence Débarre, an evolutionary biologist at the French National Center for Scientific Research and a co-author of the new paper.

[Baz]

I often think about Vince Russo saying CORONA VIRUS DEATH THREAT (https://youtu.be/cVIrwX2nQps).

[Boydy]

Did China ever do anything about those markets?

[Kikó]

Pepe on the ropes.

[Pepe]

https://i.imgflip.com/1nhqil.jpg?a479640

[Shindig]

I often think about Vince Russo saying CORONA VIRUS DEATH THREAT (https://youtu.be/cVIrwX2nQps).

It's a soundbite for the ages and poor Vince was having real second thoughts about his cameo account. :D

[Lofty]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here or not but I totally missed Dr John Campbell going full anti-vax and saying boosters cause cancer.

Only noticed because my mental dad linked me to a video of his about the Turin shroud which rang alarm bells for me early doors when he said 'it was undoubtedly human blood' as if there wasn't an expert who'd been awarded a scientific prize for analysing samples at a molecular level and concluding it wasn't blood.

Makes you wonder if his head popped recently or if his 'just the facts' schtick was always bollocks.

[Spikey M]

I imagine the only people still consuming Covid content are conspiracy nuts, so the choice is either to lean into that or find something else to talk about and risk losing your insane viewers.

[Ben]

We've got someone at work who still talks about COVID. It feels like they bring it up almost weekly still. They're in the "it's a danger and we all must get our boosters" nut camp.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I went to Oxford the other day and I couldn't believe how many people there were zipping around in masks. Haven't seen it anywhere else. Must be the ivory tower complex (or just tower, possibly, they can be made of all kinds of materials).

[Yevrah]

John Campbell is a disgrace. His channel started just giving the fachts but then he quickly realised that wasn’t where the money is so went full conspiracy nut bag almost overnight.

[Yevrah]

Steven Bartlett is also dangerously close to that territory, if he hasn’t landed in it already (I haven’t watched for a while).

[Yevrah]

I went to Oxford the other day and I couldn't believe how many people there were zipping around in masks. Haven't seen it anywhere else. Must be the ivory tower complex (or just tower, possibly, they can be made of all kinds of materials).

Probably tourists.

[Ben]

https://apnews.com/article/congo-unknown-disease-kwango-11c96d7073ae4a0bc8ef9b2575f8d226

Here we go again.

It's Liverpool's year.

[Boydy]

That actually sounds much more worrying than mpox or whatever else gets touted as the next pandemic if it's actually "flu-like".

[Spikey M]

Depends really. Africa has loads of viruses that are flu like. Even Ebola starts out Flu like. Malaria is usually flu like. Most of them are mercifully useless at spreading outside of tropical / superhot shithole conditions.

Your move, climate change.

[-james-]

Isn't it also because people get ill/die before they can give it to anyone outside of their social distancing bubble?

What we really need is a slow burner that only takes you out after a month.

[Magic]

Please please please.

[Spikey M]

How many olfactory senses can one man afford to lose?

[Boydy]

Depends really. Africa has loads of viruses that are flu like. Even Ebola starts out Flu like. Malaria is usually flu like. Most of them are mercifully useless at spreading outside of tropical / superhot shithole conditions.

Your move, climate change.

I was assuming flu-like meant how it spreads here but maybe it just meant symptoms.

[niko_cee]

Bit racist of the WHO and AP to be painting Africa as a place of disease and death. Best to just let them sort themselves out, I'm sure it'll be fine.

[Spikey M]

At Christmas time of all times.

[Magic]

Shut us down for good. :drool:

[Raoul Duke]

At Christmas time of all times.

Do they know it's Christmas time at all?

[Baz]

We using this thread for Human metapneumovirus (HMPV) or starting a new one? :happycry:

[niko_cee]

That sounds like the mother of all false alarms from the people desperate to lock us all down again.

It's basically the cold according to the beeb.

Although I guess the last one wasn't much more.

[Manc]

The Independent going with "mystery new virus." Wrong on both counts. These journos want locking up.

[randomlegend]

The Independent going with "mystery new virus." Wrong on both counts. These journos want locking up.

Media reporting of medical stories is universally absolutely appalling. It's painful to read/watch/listen to.

[Yevrah]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the sort of nonsense imposed during the 2nd and 3rd lockdowns was attempted to be enforced again for something even less threatening.

[Luke Emia]

Are we having a sweepstake on who goes out panic buying first?

[Manc]

Giggles is stocking up on his face masks as we speak.

[Giggles]

Just until I get the all clear from the monkey pox.

[Pepe]

Media reporting of medical stories is universally absolutely appalling. It's painful to read/watch/listen to.

As appalling as their reporting on anything else. Only Gell-Mann Amnesia can make anyone think otherwise.

[randomlegend]

As appalling as their reporting on anything else. Only Gell-Mann Amnesia can make anyone think otherwise.

Don't think that's actually entirely true. I would suspect it's far more likely you get journalists in certain areas who actually have a background education which is relevant to what they report on.

I will prove this beyond reasonable doubt with my sample size of one from the BBC. Economics editor Faisal Islam has a degree in economics. Health editor Hugh Pym has a degree in Philosophy, Politics and Ethics.

I'd imagine it holds for most science content though.

[niko_cee]

Economics is largely a load of made up pseudo-scientific wank though.

[randomlegend]

Economics is largely a load of made up pseudo-scientific wank though.

True.

[Jimmy Floyd]

When you see anything you know deeply about talked about in the media it's embarrassing, health is no different to anything else in that regard.

[Spikey M]

Can confirm. Every time they run one of those "I can't afford to live" articles I spot atleast a couple of obvious liars that you only need a basic understanding of the benefits system to spot.

[Lofty]

Like when it had already been debunked about the MMR Wakefield stuff but the news just ran and ran with it because it did numbers.

[Spikey M]

Pretty much, and again with that YouTube doctor that started out reviewing the Covid data with genuine insight, before pivoting to conspiracy nonsense because the conspiracy spergs are the only ones thinking about Covid 4 years down the line.

[Yevrah]

Pretty much, and again with that YouTube doctor that started out reviewing the Covid data with genuine insight, before pivoting to conspiracy nonsense because the conspiracy spergs are the only ones thinking about Covid 4 years down the line.

He's pivoted to conspiracy stuff because it's what gets views and branched out from solely focusing on Covid a long time ago.

[randomlegend]

Pretty much, and again with that YouTube doctor that started out reviewing the Covid data with genuine insight, before pivoting to conspiracy nonsense because the conspiracy spergs are the only ones thinking about Covid 4 years down the line.

Nurse.

[Ben]

Touchy.

[randomlegend]

Touchy.

We've got enough of our own nutters without adopting them from other professions.

[Mike]

Who wouldn’t love another lockdown, glorious days!

[Ben]

The roads during that first month. :drool:

Bulleting to work on the A roads with not a soul in sight.

[Giggles]

I could go for a bit of that again in fairness. Traffic was a dream.

[Shindig]

Walking down the A690 never felt so serene.

[Lofty]

Nurse.

Dr John Campbell?

[Yevrah]

Dr John Campbell?

It's a PhD doctorate. Which I suppose was the first clue that the guy was a chancer as he was more than happy to let people think otherwise.

[niko_cee]

It's not like you even need an actual PhD to be going about doctoring things up, you can get a novelty purposes only (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20n3xlye6mo) one.


the BBC has discovered Mr Scott is not medically trained. He said he "naively and regretfully" bought an honorary doctorate in business consultancy online and displayed the certificate in his clinic.

"naively and regretfully"

:D

Come on mate.

I never really understand why those things, and stuff like Lord of the Manor of wankever exist, other than as both a scam themselves, and a way for others to use them in scams. Like fake IDs, but I assume there aren't businesses that actually sell those over the counter.

[Spikey M]

One of my old tenants was a "doctor". Went round to do a home visit, stacks of porn sat on the coffee table, a "collection" - hoarding - of empty coffee jars and a cat litter tray that hadn't been emptied in months.

Riddled with the tism. Thankfully he moved to Wales and he's someone else's problem now.

[Giggles]

I think I was registered as a Reverend of some church years back.

[Manc]

Nonce.

[Spikey M]

Can you marry people Giggs?

[randomlegend]

It's not like you even need an actual PhD to be going about doctoring things up, you can get a novelty purposes only (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20n3xlye6mo) one.



"naively and regretfully"

:D

Come on mate.

I never really understand why those things, and stuff like Lord of the Manor of wankever exist, other than as both a scam themselves, and a way for others to use them in scams. Like fake IDs, but I assume there aren't businesses that actually sell those over the counter.

Plenty of PAs and nurse practitioners doing this in the NHS to mislead patients. It's crazy.

[Spikey M]

Plenty of PAs and nurse practitioners doing this in the NHS to mislead patients. It's crazy.

How is that even legal?

[Giggles]

Can you marry people Giggs?

I probably could in some of those mad American states.

[randomlegend]

How is that even legal?

Because doctor is not a protected term in law.

"Hi I'm Dr Smith, one of the medical team".

Patients will assume the person is a medical doctor, the person introducing themselves has successfully misled the patient without doing anything strictly illegal.

There's a lot more complexity to the issue, but the summary is the government (via NHSE and the GMC) have been actively supporting this replacement of doctors by non-doctors and protecting non-doctors who mislead patients in this way through their abject refusal to take action and set clear rules or scope of practice.

I'm telling you it's a fucking scandal.

[Spikey M]

It certainly sounds like one. I'd say you should whistleblow, but you'd only end up unemployed with nothing else changing whatsoever.

[randomlegend]

The whistle is being blown loudly and continuously. Nobody cares. There's slow progress through some of the medical colleges, but from government/NHSE/GMC side they are entirely complicit.

In terms of the public, the message is I think slowly getting out there due to the work of some decent journalists, but I think it's quite a hard issue for people to really understand. Given how shit everything is I think it's also hard for people to allocate much energy to caring. It also comes across as doctor elitism/protectionism to a lot of people.

[Pepe]

Occupational licensing is a racket. :dc:

[randomlegend]

Occupational licensing is a racket. :dc:

Don't even get me started on the GMC, fucking hell. A more corrupt, racist, malicious organisation you will not find.

[SvN]

I might get myself a doctorate.

[Pepe]

I'll sell you mine.

[SvN]

Not sure it's worth anything, given that it's second hand.

[Pepe]

It's like new though. Never even framed it. Still in the envelope it came in.

Come to think of it, I don't even know where it is.

[Spikey M]

Come and work for the NHS Pepe.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They need a new word either for the medical doctors or for the non-medical ones.

I for one vote that medical doctors should now be known as boctor.

[Spikey M]

Just to double down on the retarded titles, a surgeon is simply a "Mister".

I for one vote that surgeons should now be known as Fister.

[niko_cee]

Isn't 'Mister' for consultants?

Is Mrs the female equivalent? It's a bit of a daft system, but then that appears everywhere. You can be a 60 year old 'junior' barrister if you never get KC'd for example, I think. A senior junior.

[Spikey M]

Dunno. It's a stupid title for whatever they are, anyway.

[randomlegend]

Mr/Mrs is for surgeons, generally I think they start using it post college membership exams.

Medics remain as Dr (even as consultants).

Physician and surgeon are a legally protected titles, as is "Doctor of Medicine". Apothecary as well, but technically I think that would refer to pharmacists.

[niko_cee]

Interesting, always thought it was consultants in general, but then the only ones I know are obstetricians, and they have always been called Mr/Mrs, but then I guess they do perform surgery.

[randomlegend]

Yeah obs and gynae is a bit of an unusual speciality in that it very much has both medical and surgical parts to it. But yes, they do indeed call themselves Mr/Mrs.

[Pepe]

Come and work for the NHS Pepe.

I reckon that I could, armed with ChatGPT, do a better job than the vast majority of the current lot.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Saw some guy in ASDA car park today, after loading his shopping into his boot he started spraying disinfectant all over the bags/items in said bags.

This whole thing really did break some people.

[Dquincy]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd9qjjj4zy5o.amp

Confirmation that the kung flu likely came from a lab in Wuhan, China.

Would love to read back some of the comments in this thread when people were getting emotional about this claim, amongst all the other bat shit crazy guidelines.

[randomlegend]

Did you even read beyond the headline?


But the intelligence agency cautioned it had "low confidence" in this determination.

Not even the Trump stooge spouting this is prepared to put any weight behind it. Wonder why Trump's government might suddenly be claiming this now?

You are thick as shit. Like fucking hell.

[Magic]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd9qjjj4zy5o.amp

Confirmation that the kung flu likely came from a lab in Wuhan, China.

Would love to read back some of the comments in this thread when people were getting emotional about this claim, amongst all the other bat shit crazy guidelines.

Knew it. Thanks for the info Quincebear.

[niko_cee]

Without clicking on it wasn't that report made public ages ago?

[Spikey M]

It's funny how the evidence always "suggests" what the people making the claim would like it to. It was all but guaranteed to have made a natural leap a few months back.

[Kikó]

Case closed.

[Dquincy]

Did you even read beyond the headline?



Not even the Trump stooge spouting this is prepared to put any weight behind it. Wonder why Trump's government might suddenly be claiming this now?

You are thick as shit. Like fucking hell.
I included the word "likely". What's wrong, your chubby eye lids affecting your reading ability?

[randomlegend]

I included the word "likely". What's wrong, your chubby eye lids affecting your reading ability?

Unlike you I have basic reading comprehension.

"Low confidence" in intelligence community terminology means:


Low confidence generally means questionable or implausible information was used, the information is too fragmented or poorly corroborated to make solid analytic inferences, or significant concerns or problems with sources existed.

So no, even by their own definition, not "likely".

"Confirmation" indeed.

[Lewis]

It would reflect a lack of conclusive proof (not a surprise given the environment), but it suggests that generally speaking they find it a more plausible explanation than AIDS magically sprouting out of the one dirty shit market amongst thousands that just happens to be right next to the biggest AIDS factory in the world.

[randomlegend]

Whilst scientists in the field still think it's more likely it came from animals based on genomic analysis.

An intelligence organisation stating they think something is more plausible with "low confidence" is not "confirmation" of anything.

There's nothing "magic" about viruses occasionally passing from animals to humans. In an environment like the market covid is postulated to have come from, it is more a case of when such a jump will happen than if. It's just as big an "aids factory" as the lab, to be honest.

[Spikey M]

We will almost certainly never know either way, but as far as conspiracy theories go, I think "Covid came from that lab" is a pretty compelling one.

[randomlegend]

We will almost certainly never know either way, but as far as conspiracy theories go, I think "Covid came from that lab" is a pretty compelling one.

It's one that gets people going, but I don't think it's taken very seriously by actual scientists who study viruses for a living. There's pretty broad consensus and strong genetic evidence it came from an animal, as did SARS-CoV1 and MERS before it. The only people who've ever really claimed it came from a lab are people with political reasons to do so e.g. the Republican government just as they are trying to start a trade war with China.

[Boydy]

Anyone seen any of this stuff about bird flu in the US? :uhoh:

[Lewis]

When you put it like that you can understand why China went out of their way to lie about it and chimp at the slightest scrutiny. They obviously don't want to see it politicised.

[randomlegend]

I presume you mean lab flu.
Boydy

[randomlegend]

When you put it like that you can understand why China went out of their way to lie about it and chimp at the slightest scrutiny. They obviously don't want to see it politicised.

Yeah and all the nerd virologists in the whole world just have an agenda to protect the CCP.

[Spikey M]

It's one that gets people going, but I don't think it's taken very seriously by actual scientists who study viruses for a living. There's pretty broad consensus and strong genetic evidence it came from an animal, as did SARS-CoV1 and MERS before it. The only people who've ever really claimed it came from a lab are people with political reasons to do so e.g. the Republican government just as they are trying to start a trade war with China.

The problem is, it can be both a naturally occurring virus that made the species jump AND from the lab. That's what happened with the Marberg Outbreak in Germany.

As I said, we will never know, and I'm not about to nail my colours to either mast, but I certainly wouldn't be ruling out some kind of lab involvement. Even if it was just a natural sample that accidentally infected the work experience kid.

[Lewis]

There will be some dispute amongst them for even the 'low confidence' verdict to exist. Trump stooges to a man presumably.

[randomlegend]

The problem is, it can be both a naturally occurring virus that made the species jump AND from the lab. That's what happened with the Marberg Outbreak in Germany.

As I said, we will never know, and I'm not about to nail my colours to either mast, but I certainly wouldn't be ruling out some kind of lab involvement. Even if it was just a natural sample that accidentally infected the work experience kid.

I don't "rule it out" either. I just pointed out Quincy is a moron for thinking that the article he posted CONFIRMED it most likely came from a lab and gave him opportunity to gloat, when it did nothing of the sort.

[randomlegend]

There will be some dispute amongst them for even the 'low confidence' verdict to exist.

You often do this; just state things as facts with no actual evidence they are true. I can well imagine an intelligence agency stating something completely against the scientific consensus. Your position is no more based in evidence than mine. It's just a belief.

[Lewis]

Why would several intelligence agencies independently go out of their way to give credence to something against the scientific consensus?

[randomlegend]

Why would several intelligence agencies independently go out of their way to give credence to something against the scientific consensus?

Because it's politically expedient for them to do so.

Why would the worldwide scientific community engage in a conspiracy on the origins of a virus for the benefit of the Chinese government?

[Lewis]

Because it's politically expedient for them to do so?

[niko_cee]

I always thought that lab leak theory was more along the lines of they [China] knew about this a lot earlier than they will admit and were studying it/lying about it rather than it having been an accidentally or intentionally manufactured thing which originated in the lab.

[Pepe]

'Worldwide scientific community' is just not a thing.

[randomlegend]

Because it's politically expedient for them to do so?

How? What's the motivation?

[randomlegend]

'Worldwide scientific community' is just not a thing.

Well yes that's more of less the point. Scientists all over the world have independently come up with the same results and same conclusions, and yet apparently they are all one giant network colluding for the benefit of China.

[Pepe]

Haven't looked carefully, but I think that there has been enough groups with enough credibility saying that maybe it came from a lab but really hard to tell that we have to leave it as a small but unlikely possibility. Why anyone cares, that I do not know.

[Lewis]

They aren't running direct interference for the Chinese Communist Party, but I don't consider it far-fetched to think that enough of them will have been fretting about the NARRATIVE when it comes to putting their name to something. If you don't think scientists are willing to politicise themselves then I have a lovely bridge with your name on.

[Dquincy]

Knew it. Thanks for the info Quincebear.
At least MJ is on board with this.

[Dquincy]

I don't "rule it out" either. I just pointed out Quincy is a moron for thinking that the article he posted CONFIRMED it most likely came from a lab and gave him opportunity to gloat, when it did nothing of the sort.
Dude, don't get all Daily Mail on me. You're misquoting me.

[Dquincy]

It's one that gets people going, but I don't think it's taken very seriously by actual scientists who study viruses for a living. There's pretty broad consensus and strong genetic evidence it came from an animal, as did SARS-CoV1 and MERS before it. The only people who've ever really claimed it came from a lab are people with political reasons to do so e.g. the Republican government just as they are trying to start a trade war with China.
There is supposedly only 40 or 50 of these labs around the world and you don't question the coincidence that China claimed it came from the local market. These types of markets being in thousands of locations in and around China.

[niko_cee]

At least MJ is on board with this.

You two and Ignatius J. Reilly.

[niko_cee]

Why would several intelligence agencies independently go out of their way to give credence to something against the scientific consensus?

Because it is politically expedient to do so?

[randomlegend]

Dude, don't get all Daily Mail on me. You're misquoting me.

Claiming in misquoting you when your post is right there for all to see is special even for you.

[randomlegend]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd9qjjj4zy5o.amp

Confirmation that the kung flu likely came from a lab in Wuhan, China.

.

In case you've forgotten what you wrote.

[Dquincy]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd9qjjj4zy5o.amp

Confirmation that the kung flu LIKELY came from a lab in Wuhan, China.



In case this helps. x

[randomlegend]

In case this helps. x

Which is exactly what I wrote in the post you've quoted and said I misquoted you in you dribbling fucking idiot :D

[Magic]

Dr RFK Jr will save us. :drool:

[Pepe]

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/16/opinion/covid-pandemic-lab-leak.html?unlocked_article_code=1.4U4.s296.TfiIiWI d6GeF


To this day, there is no strong scientific evidence ruling out a lab leak or proving that the virus arose from human-animal contact in that seafood market. The few papers cited for market origin were written by a small, overlapping group of authors, including those who didn’t tell the public how serious their doubts had been.

:gs:

[Kikó]

I'm not a lab leak denier, I'm yevrah but another :evictory:

[Yevrah]

Pep, the lines have been drawn and they won't change. Even I know this point is futile.

[niko_cee]

Without wanting to pour fuel on the fire, that extremely pithy summary quoted is stated without any evidence as to its central thesis that there is scant evidence for the non-conspiracy, which, if you bother to look into things doesn't appear to be the case.

https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1578
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9420317/
https://www.science.org/content/article/virologists-and-epidemiologists-back-natural-origin-covid-19-survey-suggests

The whole thing seems to argue that, rather than try to successfully state the case you believe and why you believe it, it is better to try to undermine and pour scorn on the contrary/rival position, which seems quite an agenda-led/teleological type of reasoning.

A type of dishonest argumentation, seen in many fields, which should raise suspicion in my view.

[Pepe]

Five years after the onset of the Covid pandemic, it’s tempting to think of all that as ancient history. We learned our lesson about lab safety — and about the need to be straight with the public — and now we can move on to new crises, like measles and the evolving bird flu, right?

Wrong. If anyone needs convincing that the next pandemic is only an accident away, check out a recent paper in Cell, a prestigious scientific journal. Researchers, many of whom work or have worked at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (yes, the same institution), describe taking samples of viruses found in bats (yes, the same animal) and experimenting to see if they could infect human cells and pose a pandemic risk.

Sounds like the kind of research that should be conducted — if at all — with the very highest safety protocols, as W. Ian Lipkin and Ralph Baric discussed in a recent guest essay. But if you scroll all the way down to Page 19 of the journal article and squint, you learn that the scientists did all this under what they call “BSL-2 plus” conditions, a designation that isn’t standardized and that Baric and Lipkin say is “insufficient for work with potentially dangerous respiratory viruses.” If just one lab worker unwittingly inhaled the virus and got infected, there’s no telling what the impact could be on Wuhan, a city of millions, or the world.

:gs:

[Jimmy Floyd]

It was clearly a lab leak, but it's bad for business to embarrass the Chinese government by saying this, so it will remain a fringe position forever.

[niko_cee]

I'm not really sure if the bag head indicates a positive or negative view towards the lab leak but the thing I don't really follow in the logic/argument, as exampled by the opening paragraph:


Since scientists began playing around with dangerous pathogens in laboratories, the world has experienced four or five pandemics, depending on how you count. One of them, the 1977 Russian flu, was almost certainly sparked by a research mishap. Some Western scientists quickly suspected the odd virus had resided in a lab freezer for a couple of decades, but they kept mostly quiet for fear of ruffling feathers.

is that, if you read the lab leak paper directly referenced, it accounts for the escape of existing [or previously extant] viruses. All of these viruses existed, and were prevalent in nature at some point prior to be lab leaked. Isn't that the fundamental problem here - Wuhan lab leak is actually pre-supposed upon it having been lab created, not just lab leaked. If it just 'leaked' out it must have already existed in nature, probably in the fabled wet market or that area generally? Thus making it not really 'leaked' at all. Did the Chinese know about it before the official version says they did? Almost certainly. Did they lie about and or attempt to cover their arses in ensuing investigations? Absolutely. Does any of that have any bearing on the actual origin of covid? Not really.

[Pepe]

I'm not really sure if the bag head indicates a positive or negative view towards the lab leak

Just trying to add fuel to the fire, tbh. I am neither for nor against the lab leak theory. I've never looked at the evidence to have an opinion either way, plus at this point it is clear that we will never know for sure. I do find it interesting that gain of function research seems to have survived the pandemic pretty much unscathed. I would have imagined that someone would try to regulate it more tightly, considering how tightly regulated other much less potentially dangerous things are.

[Yevrah]

It was clearly a lab leak, but it's bad for business to embarrass the Chinese government by saying this, so it will remain a fringe position forever.

It's not only this, but if it did come from a lab it sort of leaves science with a score draw (no away goals) position at best, in that it played a huge part in stopping a pandemic it started.

We will never know for sure, but if hypothetically someone did know the answer for certain and they offered odds similar to the how likely it's portrayed to have come from a lab (what, 10-1 or longer), I'd put a very fair chunk on lab and wouldn't touch 'market' for shit.

[niko_cee]

Aye, who needs rigorous or reasoned research when we can go on gut feeling and the betting markets, be they real or hypothetical.

If Denise super boosts it for me, then I'm sold.

[Yevrah]

Aye, who needs rigorous or reasoned research

If we'd had any of those things we wouldn't be in this position, but as you'll remember anyone even suggesting it came from a lab was labelled a conspiracy theorist. There never has been and never will be any desire in the scientific community or within China to seriously consider if it came from a lab, which as covered above, doesn't take a rocket scientist to speculate why.

[niko_cee]

I still don't really understand what you mean by came from a lab. Do you mean manmade / engineered and then let loose?

I feel there is a level of intentional definitional vaguery around all these things, not from you but in a lot of the reporting, that allows one to 'quite sensibly' transition from what is perceived to be the most likely explanation [it woz nature wot made it] to a much less likely one through a series of steps, well they were researching these things and look we have had lab leaks before so . . .

[Giggles]

It’s over lads.

[niko_cee]

Not for some people (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/labour-long-term-sick-work-benefits-starmer-covid-113204604.html)

[Pepe]

:lol:

[Yevrah]

I still don't really understand what you mean by came from a lab. Do you mean manmade / engineered and then let loose? .

Not necessarily deliberately let loose. But there was a virus, from Wuhan, where the Wuhan Institute of Virology is and it definitely did not come from a lab?

I mean, clearly I’ve no idea where it came from but the total shutting down of that conversation was so surreal it just fuelled the viewpoint that it was of lab origin, whether it was or not.

Chuck in that we nailed the origin of SARS and MERS within 12 months and it just all stinks.

Still, Giggles is right, it’s all over (until the next one at least).

[Magic]

I've no doubt that long COVID is a thing and must be awful for anyone that's got it. Chuck it on the ME/Fibromyalgia bonfire of things nobody cares about.

[randomlegend]

Long covid is absolutely a real thing. There'll be some grifters as there is with any condition we don't have a definitive test for, but there is no doubt it's a real thing. Post-viral syndromes are not even a remotely controversial concept within medicine.

[Dquincy]

Long covid is absolutely a real thing. There'll be some grifters as there is with any condition we don't have a definitive test for, but there is no doubt it's a real thing. Post-viral syndromes are not even a remotely controversial concept within medicine.

Hang on, why haven't you gone aggressive on Pepe's links?