UK General Election 2017 - 8 June

[Boydy]

Jesus Christ II: looked at the early council results and Labour are getting slaughtered everywhere, mostly by Cons but also by Greens. Total bloodbath.

Not surprising at all tbh. The people who had gone tory before were never coming back and now they're haemorrhaging the left to the Greens.

[Spikey M]

The Corbyn mob are celebrating harder than anyone on Twitter as well. Mental.

[Boydy]

The labour right celebrated 2019. They actively worked for it to happen too. Fuck em.

[Spikey M]

If they ever want their party to be competitive again they should probably stop fucking each other.

[Ian]

Labour are hopeless and even if there is another party who'd do a good job given the chance they're not going to win so it's a Tory shitpit for the forseeable.

[Lofty]

To be fair to them people have been lolling about Corbyn and still are, but he at least effectively opposed the government and forced May into bed with the DUP after the 2017 election. He got rinsed in the Brexit election, and all the Starmtroopers (I know) were giving it large about how it was the worst defeat in history etc. So if Starmer fucks it even worse than Corbyn then the schadenfraude will run riot. A bit like how Spurs went out of the Europa League before Arsenal but Spurs fans are now giving it large for some reason.

[Spikey M]

To be fair to them people have been lolling about Corbyn and still are, but he at least effectively opposed the government and forced May into bed with the DUP after the 2017 election. He got rinsed in the Brexit election, and all the Starmtroopers (I know) were giving it large about how it was the worst defeat in history etc. So if Starmer fucks it even worse than Corbyn then the schadenfraude will run riot. A bit like how Spurs went out of the Europa League before Arsenal but Spurs fans are now giving it large for some reason.

Spurs and Arsenal were never supposed to support the same team though. This is wishing failure on your own team because you don't like the manager.

[Lofty]

True but I meant the more nonsensical aspect of 'lol our season is better because a team that got further than us in the same competition lost' logic. A better analogy might be the people claiming Arsenal shouldn't have sacked Emery this morning. In fact, Emery = Corbyn, Arteta = Starmer.

I didn't vote in the local council elections here, never really bothered to be honest. MP wise it is a tory safe seat that everyone complains about the absentee MP then votes them in again. So whatever I will vote in a GE will be meaningless anyway, but won't vote for Starmer at this rate anyway.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The problem with Corbyn was that he himself was a complete joke rooted in the Cold War era. A more intelligent, modern left wing populism could do better. The main problem they have is they don't want to embrace populism, they want to feel superior to the plebs. They won't get anywhere until they flush that out of the system.

[Boydy]

I think we'll one day look back at the Corbyn period as a temporary halting of the pasokification of the labour party.

[Waffdon]

Imagine living in one of the most deprived areas in the whole of the UK with the highest unemployment rate and still voting Conservative. What a bunch of thick bastards.

England :sick:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Thinking voters are collectively stupid and/or voting against their own interests is the basis of prolonged political failure. Voters NEVER vote against their own interests.

[Spikey M]

Imagine living in one of the most deprived areas in the whole of the UK with the highest unemployment rate and still voting Conservative. What a bunch of thick bastards.

England :sick:

Hartlepool is basically Scotland and you guys have been electing a failing Single Issue Party for more than a decade now.

[Waffdon]

You’re surrounded by Brexit loving, flag shagging right wing’d creeps. I’m not sure Scotland handing a majority to the SNP yet again is the issue. They have the only competent leader for one.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There is only one flag shagging party in the UK and it's the one headed up by Sturgeon. Clue's in the name.

[Spikey M]

Also, how can she be considered competent when she's failed to achieve her one single objective for more than 10 years? I'd have been sacked long ago.

[Waffdon]

How isn’t she? She wins every debate she has and pisses it in the elections every time. I doubt independence will ever happen but their best chance is with her. Helps she speaks out against racists and fascists too, which is a nice change.

I’ve never understood how Jimmy - a proud Gay man - can happily vote in a party where half his party are against Gay Marriage.

[Lofty]

Doesnt speak out about sex zombies though.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yes, let's herd people into groups and labels and tell them what their priorities should be.

Another version of that is why Labour lost its base (on both sides of the border).

[igor_balis]

Yes, let's herd people into groups and labels and tell them what their priorities should be.

Another version of that is why Labour lost its base (on both sides of the border).

You're right of course, but when you talk about politics you always revert to this vague "well you don't just vote in your own interests", like you do genuinely believe you're doing the noble, self-sacrificing thing by voting Tory, but for someone so articulate and intelligent you've never really attempted to explain why.

I feel like the Tories could run on a ticket of killing all people whose name is in the first half of the alphabet and be against a fairly moderate social democrat Labour guy, and you'd still vote Tory and say something eye rolly about the greater good and that.

[Spikey M]

Wasn't it the Conservatives that legalised Gay Marriage?

[7om]

Is the problem with Labour that they have different voter bases that are like oil and water? Your traditional working class and the wannabe socialists who have university degrees. The working class have seemingly gone Tory and I don’t see how they will go back.

[Don]

It's not that deep. People are generally thick and they're not going to sign up for life to some random party in this day and age. If a party has a good leader and good policies it'll win. Labour currently have an average leader with potential to be good but no policies. You're not inciting a revolution with that hand.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You're right of course, but when you talk about politics you always revert to this vague "well you don't just vote in your own interests", like you do genuinely believe you're doing the noble, self-sacrificing thing by voting Tory, but for someone so articulate and intelligent you've never really attempted to explain why.

I feel like the Tories could run on a ticket of killing all people whose name is in the first half of the alphabet and be against a fairly moderate social democrat Labour guy, and you'd still vote Tory and say something eye rolly about the greater good and that.

It basically comes down to the fact that I don't think a socialist or planned society/economy is either plausible, or, even if it were plausible, better than what we currently have. Therefore I'll happily keep voting to keep a country I like roughly the way it is.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything the Tories, or individual Tories, say and do. In fact I hate a lot of it. But small-scale policies and personalities don't matter at all, when put up against the above choice.

[Yevrah]

The damage that Corbyn and his idiot band of followers have done to the Labour party is staggering.

[Spikey M]

I think the youths that are starting to come through now are alot more political than our generation were (on issues they care about(the environment, animal welfare, etc.)) and I suspect the Green Party will continue to increase their support off the back of it. Unless Labour sort their shit out, they could lose any semblance of being "the opposition" over the next couple of elections.

[Jimmy Floyd]

In France it's gone from a pretty standard Labour/Tory divide 20 years ago to a choice between the Le Pen lot, the Emmanuel Macron 'I'm a twat' party, and some old trot reds. The Labour and Tory equivalents are now 4th and 5th parties at best.

We're not France, thank god, but you could see Labour go the way of that lot, while the Tories continue to reap the rewards of having seen off all challenges to their right since about 1665.

[Lewis]

The Labour Party is run by and for saddos, and the average person in the 'deprived' parts of the country probably does better than their direct London equivalent, which skews what political people actually think these areas are like and produces shitheaded solutions and priorities. This has been true for at least ten years, probably more like thirty, but it needed the perfect storm of Brexit (voting against the Labour Party) and Jeremy Corbyn (keeping them away from the Labour Party) to accelerate the re-alignment that Ed West was writing about a decade ago.

It's not particularly great for me since, for all the lolling at socialism, we'll equally never see a small state government ever again; but what can you do.

[Pepe]

Has a government ever become "smaller"? Seems like a one-way street.

[Lewis]

I think we're long past expecting spending to fall, but it would be nice for it to do less banning and regulating of everything under the sun.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Labour Party is run by and for saddos, and the average person in the 'deprived' parts of the country probably does better than their direct London equivalent, which skews what political people actually think these areas are like and produces shitheaded solutions and priorities. This has been true for at least ten years, probably more like thirty, but it needed the perfect storm of Brexit (voting against the Labour Party) and Jeremy Corbyn (keeping them away from the Labour Party) to accelerate the re-alignment that Ed West was writing about a decade ago.

It's not particularly great for me since, for all the lolling at socialism, we'll equally never see a small state government ever again; but what can you do.

Everything boils down to home ownership, which is actually quite high in 'deprived' areas, and will also dictate a lot of the probably narrative-busting London result that you'll see over the weekend.

[Pepe]

I think we're long past expecting spending to fall, but it would be nice for it to do less banning and regulating of everything under the sun.

Agreed, but, again, does that ever happen?

[Lewis]

Everything boils down to home ownership, which is actually quite high in 'deprived' areas, and will also dictate a lot of the probably narrative-busting London result that you'll see over the weekend.

Yeah, basically - which makes you wonder why they aren't as desperate as they should be to make home-buying easier across the country. New Labour was essentially born out of expanded home ownership (I seem to remember Neil Kinnock saying as much), so they just need to shake the nonces off and hope the Conservative Party finds a way of completely discrediting itself at some point over the next decade.


Agreed, but, again, does that ever happen?

1979 to 1997 looks like a golden age of relatively light-touch government now, and there was about six months in 2010 where the coalition pretended it was going to burn a load of shit agencies and regulations out but never did.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Early perusal of 'nice places' in the north suggests the Tories doing far less well there, often losing votes to the Lib Dems (as us posh folk don't vote Labour, that's for the plebs).

[Lewis]

Tim Farron hangs on in the Lake District, and Harrogate could go in a general Lib Dem surge.

[Magic]

Imagine living in one of the most deprived areas in the whole of the UK with the highest unemployment rate and still voting Conservative. What a bunch of thick bastards.

England :sick:

Reminds me of the poorest bigoted freaks in what was it Irvine or something voting in a Tory MSP because of THE UNION.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Nicola not looking so hot for her majority here.

[Waffdon]

Nicola not looking so hot for her majority here.

Huh? They held onto the seat in the biggest pro brexit area in Scotland and have already gained East Lothian. They’re rumoured to have gained Edinburgh Central and Tories aren’t confident on Eastwood. Get them two and you’d think it’s in the bag.

The Greens are just echo friendly SNP’s anyway. I had them getting 63 seats with Greens getting 9/10. Pissing it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Huh? They held onto the seat in the biggest pro brexit area in Scotland and have already gained East Lothian. They’re rumoured to have gained Edinburgh Central and Tories aren’t confident on Eastwood. Get them two and you’d think it’s in the bag.

The Greens are just echo friendly SNP’s anyway. I had them getting 63 seats with Greens getting 9/10. Pissing it.

I was going off her own quote today, but no doubt she was lying as always.

[niko_cee]

Another, who spent a lot of time on the town's doorsteps, said the party was afflicted by the phenomenon of "long Corbyn".

:harold:

[Magic]

Long Corbyn. :D

Love it.

[Lofty]

I think as others have touched on a major issue not factored in is people's perceptions of themselves. Class systems seem more fluid too, but it is funny seeing militant train drivers think they are middle class when they are rabid about the union and coming in for 2am shifts.

[Boydy]

1390687211184705541


Loooooool.

You can still get good odds on Bailey winning on Betfair Exchange. I stuck a fiver on at 25/1. Probably won't happen but worth a punt.

[Waffdon]

Reminds me of the poorest bigoted freaks in what was it Irvine or something voting in a Tory MSP because of THE UNION.

SNP gain Ayr. Lolz.

[Lewis]

Shaun Bailey is literally an idiot, so imagine London not getting noticeably worse with him as mayor. They could just put anyone in charge.

[Ian]

1390685349341548547

Take that, Boris.

[niko_cee]

In fairness to Our Kier there's absolutely no point having good policies in opposition as they'll just get nicked by the government of the day and used to beat you with down the line.

[phonics]

Bernie Sanders brother won lol.

[Lewis]

Scotland looks like a lot of SNP wins on forty per cent, which is obviously just great. Meanwhile, Leanne Wood looks like she is out so lmao at her.

[Shindig]

In fairness to Our Kier there's absolutely no point having good policies in opposition as they'll just get nicked by the government of the day and used to beat you with down the line.

And you can't really campaign on much when the last year has been all about covid. And it's not like they're in a position to influence policies on that. For all the Labour infighting, there's been a real anonymity to them in the last year.

[7om]

Why are Labour so strong in Wales?

[Lewis]

It's twenty years behind England.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Looking at twitter tonight, I think they've finally lost the plot. Left wing bubble just will not accept that not everyone is as ANGRY about the Tories as they are.

Seen a lot of 'Remember the 2012 Olympics?' tweets as well, fucking hell are people this pig ignorant?

[Lewis]

lol at Nicola Sturgeon saying she will take her second referendum to the Supreme Court. I would simply bait them into holding an illegal one, and then execute the thousand most influential party members.

[Ian]

As ever, your Twitter feed will always contain whatever flavour of crank you choose. They're always there, and they're very stupid.

If you so desire you'll find plenty of the right wing reply guys telling them to fuck off and live elsewhere if they're not constantly on the cusp of climax with every aspect of British life.

[Waffdon]

lol at Nicola Sturgeon saying she will take her second referendum to the Supreme Court. I would simply bait them into holding an illegal one, and then execute the thousand most influential party members.

U ok hun

[Jimmy Floyd]

lol at Nicola Sturgeon saying she will take her second referendum to the Supreme Court. I would simply bait them into holding an illegal one, and then execute the thousand most influential party members.

She won't even win it, unless there's an economic crash.

[Lewis]

They can't have one without Westminster allowing it, and doing so would be idiotic, especially on similar grounds to the last one that gamed it all entirely in their favour. Just tell them to fuck off at every turn, and stop offering more concessions and/or money to incentivise the hamster wheel.

[Queenslander]

Imagine living in one of the most deprived areas in the whole of the UK with the highest unemployment rate and still voting Conservative. What a bunch of thick bastards.

England :sick:

Sounds like rural QLD

[Kikó]

They can't have one without Westminster allowing it, and doing so would be idiotic, especially on similar grounds to the last one that gamed it all entirely in their favour. Just tell them to fuck off at every turn, and stop offering more concessions and/or money to incentivise the hamster wheel.

Union of equals 🤤

I don't think Labour did that bad yesterday in the cold light of day. They had a big ship to reverse but it's not quite stuck in the middle of the Suez.

[niko_cee]

Wait a minute, Liverpool's suspended and under criminal investigation Labour [?] mayor Joe Anderson has been replaced by new Labour mayoral candidate Joanne Anderson?

:saywhat:

[Lewis]

Union of equals 🤤

I don't think Labour did that bad yesterday in the cold light of day. They had a big ship to reverse but it's not quite stuck in the middle of the Suez.

The United Kingdom isn't a 'Union of Equals'. It's one country ('forever after be United into One Kingdom'), which was why national devolution was stupid. Elsewhere, this (https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1390970448066842626) is going to end up like when rogue states welcome delegations of mental Western leftists.

'The Scottish Government is delighted to receive the backing of the Ecuadorian...'

[Shindig]

Wait a minute, Liverpool's suspended and under criminal investigation Labour [?] mayor Joe Anderson has been replaced by new Labour mayoral candidate Joanne Anderson?

:saywhat:

I have looked to confirm they are two very different people. :D

[niko_cee]

https://www.yst.am/movies/screenshot/big-mommas-house-2-2006-large-screenshot3.jpg

[7om]

Sturgeon being interviewed just now, again reiterating that the decision of Scottish Independence is purely for Holyrood and the Scottish people. And that Westminster has nothing to do with it. That’s not true is it, so why does she keep saying it?

[Kikó]

Or it is true?

1390958073523675136?s=19

[7om]

I have no idea. They had a constitutional law expert on the BBC just now and I’m still clueless.

[Kikó]

From what I've read, it's constitutionally untested if Scotland decided to go without Westminster's approval.

[Lewis]

The Claim of Right deposed James VII as King of Scotland, and the Kingdom of Scotland was then rolled into the Kingdom of Great Britain, so the Acts of Union would supersede it in reserving such matters for Westminster regardless of what the Scottish Constitutional Convention and opposition day debates claim. The Scotland Act is very clear about what the Scottish Parliament cannot do, and they can no more interfere with the United Kingdom or its parliament than they can declare war on somebody or change the line of succession. They could obviously organise a vote and claim whatever they wanted from it, but it would get about as far as starting your own tax haven.

[Lewis]

1391111269999169536

Yeah that should do it.

[Lewis]

GS doing a Michael Stone to keep his best bird Lisa Nandy in.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The London result was a lot closer than I thought it would be. Peter Gammons (UKIP) managing to come 13th was possibly the most impressive achievement of the night.

[Shindig]

Durham's in. NOC but Labour still have the most seats. Tories are the biggest winners but not enough to overhaul the Independents in 2nd. The local Green guy got in for their only seat by a mere 15 votes. Labour second, Green (the bloke's wife) third.

I only found his name on the ballot, to be fair. They would've smashed it if they weren't splitting the vote. Labour got the Police Commissioner spot which was inevitable.

[igor_balis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX8ETTAWwnI

fucking love this guy

[Jimmy Floyd]

He won handily, too.

[phonics]

This voter fraud thing is so funny. Like if this is an important issue and you’ve been in power for 4 governments, doesn’t that imply you’re the one doing the fraud?

[Jimmy Floyd]

They've probably worked out that x% of it is done by Asians who don't vote for them.

[Lewis]

1394564641850896386

It's over.

[Ian]

Not one person is going to watch that other than to lol at him.

It'll birth plenty of memes though.

[niko_cee]

It should be in the style of People Like Us (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_Like_Us_(mockumentary)) preferably with Langham on board if he's not still inside.

[Spikey M]

The Thin Of It.

[Lofty]

It's going to be like Brendan and the envelopes except it's Corbyn's name not Henderson.

[niko_cee]

John Bercow coming out as Labour is equal parts entirely expected, lol and probably damaging to 'the Labour brand'. :sick:

[Lewis]

If George Galloway wins tonight. :cool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

If Galloway wins there needs to be ethnic cleansing in wherever that shithole is.

[Lewis]

1410594630828060681

Why didn't her sister just decide not to be killed?

[Boydy]

This national insurance rise is a joke.

[Spikey M]

And his approval rating is still better than Starmers.

[Yevrah]

This national insurance rise is a joke.

What's your rationale?

[phonics]

Gavin Williamson saying how he met Marcus Rashford only for his team to later reveal that he spoke to a rugby player called Mario Itoje...

Eton, they're not sending their best.

[Lewis]

What's your rationale?

The country is run for pensioners and property owners, which, yes, are the Conservatives' main vote; but when Theresa May came up with a vastly superior system cunts called it a 'Dementia Tax' (which at least stopped her winning).

[Yevrah]

The country is run for pensioners and property owners, which, yes, are the Conservatives' main vote; but when Theresa May came up with a vastly superior system cunts called it a 'Dementia Tax' (which at least stopped her winning).

Of course, but what would you do with all these people who need the care (which will be you and I one day)/how else would you fund it?

[Jimmy Floyd]

You basically can't fund anything in the circle of public opinion these days without it being charged non-specifically to 'the rich' or in Starmer-speak, 'those with the broadest shoulders'.

I saw the Spectator agitating for a land tax or something the other day, so we truly have moved through the looking glass.

[Yevrah]

I mean, on face value, not knowing much about the issue/how underfunded it is now, it seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to be doing. Do people (Boydy as one example?) hate it because they just hate anything the Tories do?

As an aside, we need our economy going again big time and an end to any and all residual nonsense still going from when COVID was a genuine problem.

[Don]

Get fucking rid of National Insurance by amalgamating it with IT, bring CGT in line with IT, introduce the wealth tax and let's all fucking have an orgy ffs.

[Spikey M]

They should have just created a new "Covid Tax" or some shit and applied it to any and all income streams at 0.1% or something like that. There's probably many reasons why that won't work but they can all fuck off.

Either way, using NI was not the answer.

[Jimmy Floyd]

When those (I have refrained from saying 'we') who worked through the pandemic, and didn't get furloughed, end up getting charged through the nose for everything in recovery - this is a good example - there will be some kind of culture war vs the work from home slob layabouts who are getting into the 'cyclist' mentality now when it comes to self-righteousness.

[Yevrah]

Either way, using NI was not the answer.

Why not? It's just one tax mechanism. Why does it matter that they picked that one?

Unless you're going to say the wealthy (and I mean actual wealthy, not the 5%, which is a con trick the devil would have been proud of) should be paying it/paying more? To which my answer would be, "yes, that should apply to many things".

[Jimmy Floyd]

Starmer made a good point about care workers getting a tax hike but not a pay rise.

[Shindig]

Isn’t the plan to give it a separate tax from 2023? Not that it makes much difference.

[Yevrah]

When those (I have refrained from saying 'we') who worked through the pandemic, and didn't get furloughed, end up getting charged through the nose for everything in recovery - this is a good example - there will be some kind of culture war vs the work from home slob layabouts who are getting into the 'cyclist' mentality now when it comes to self-righteousness.

I assume your wage is pretty decent from what you do, but I agree with the broad point, if those on minimum wage ever realise on mass that they had to put themselves at risk and contribute towards paying for it all afterwards there could be a genuine riot. It's probably handy for the government that a lot of them are busy with conspiracy theories, FREEDOM marches and other such diversionary nonsense.

[Kikó]

10% tax increase which is falling on the poorest hardest is a pretty turd move.

[Yevrah]

10% tax increase which is falling on the poorest hardest is a pretty turd move.

Not that I disagree with the point, but where do you get 10% from?

[Kikó]

Percentage increase from 12 to 13.5%.

[Yevrah]

Percentage increase from 12 to 13.5%.

Good point, well made. It's worth pointing out that it's much more than 10% for those earning more, but once again we stop at this mythical £100k figure which presumably leads everyone to untold riches once hit.

[Kikó]

Dom is our new leader. Long live the Dom.
1435564437403054080?s=20

[Spikey M]

Why not? It's just one tax mechanism. Why does it matter that they picked that one?

Unless you're going to say the wealthy (and I mean actual wealthy, not the 5%, which is a con trick the devil would have been proud of) should be paying it/paying more? To which my answer would be, "yes, that should apply to many things".

Because it exclusively targets working people. Not landlords, people living off dividends, or whatever other income stream.

[Yevrah]

Because it exclusively targets working people. Not landlords, people living off dividends, or whatever other income stream.

Aren't they doing dividends as well or did I dream that?

[Spikey M]

Aren't they doing dividends as well or did I dream that?

Possibly, I've heard rumours but nothing official. Either way, it's pretty shitty that landlords are unaffected but Debbie working in Next is getting stung. It's deliberate too.

[Yevrah]

Possibly, I've heard rumours but nothing official. Either way, it's pretty shitty that landlords are unaffected but Debbie working in Next is getting stung. It's deliberate too.

The landlord thing is an absolute disgrace, but a disgrace that I've no idea how you rectify. There must be so many of them that if you make it unviable to own and rent multiple houses the market would be affected to the point where your average Joe is also fucked.

[Lewis]

Of course, but what would you do with all these people who need the care (which will be you and I one day)/how else would you fund it?

If it has to be paid for by everybody then just put income tax or VAT up. If you want the people using it to pay have a 'Dementia Tax' that homes in on their assets (and increase that window where people can give their houses away prior to needing care). Everything ultimately comes down to housebuilding effectively having been outlawed over the years. Pensioners only have all the assets because of that. Fix planning regulations and you solve half the problems shitting the country down.

[Spikey M]

VAT would be far fairer, but then you get melts moaning about poor people being more affected by that. Ultimately there is no "fair" way of doing this, just more and less unfair - and using NI definitely falls under the former.

[Lewis]

At least the triple lock has been suspended. They will moan about that as well. 'I've paid into the system all my life'. Why doesn't the system have enough money then you cunt?

[Yevrah]

Isn't house building deliberately broken Lewis? In that supply has to be managed in the way it is to stop millions being plunged into negative equity. I mean, changing regulations and actually building more houses would surely be a piece of piss to do if the motivation was there.

[Yevrah]

At least the triple lock has been suspended. They will moan about that as well. 'I've paid into the system all my life'. Why doesn't the system have enough money then you cunt?

Indeed. Any moans about that from anyone who has actually looked at the numbers is taking the complete piss.

[Lewis]

Isn't house building deliberately broken Lewis? In that supply has to be managed in the way it is to stop millions being plunged into negative equity. I mean, changing regulations and actually building more houses would surely be a piece of piss to do if the motivation was there.

Yeah, it could easily be resolved from an addressing the shortage/sensible house pricing point of view; but, as you say, good luck winning an election on hello voter in the South East I would like to talk to you about reducing your asset worth by thirty per cent.

[Spikey M]

It's amazing when you think of it.

They're not building houses to allow prices to keep growing.

Then they tax people so that retired people can have care without selling their houses, causing a further lack of housing to be available.

Then they specifically pick the tax option that has no affect on the old cunts that own all the houses to fund it.

:drool:

[Lofty]

Is this a specifically southern problem because they are throwing the fuckers up round here, to an insane degree. £500,000 'detached' houses with a gnat's bollock between plots, sticking thousands of homes on several new estates around an existing town without accounting for the increased amenities needed to accommodate the population explosion.

[Spikey M]

You've identified the problem with the pricetag. They won't have anything built that brings values down.

[Boydy]

What's your rationale?

Others have covered a lot of it since I posted but I also wasn't aware until the other day that on earnings over 50k your national insurance drops to 2%. They could have upped that upper earnings limit a bit/increased the percentage over the upper earnings or just removed it altogether.

I'm also not sure what the big deal about people having to sell their houses for care really is? Are we now asking low paid people to subsidise the inheritance of those with better off parents?

[Lewis]

This is where the MANSION TAX was a missed opportunity. All the crying about 'what about some pensioner who...' If you can't afford to run the house - and taxes are a part of that - why should you keep it? It's the same logic as the BEDROOM TAX. Where they fucked it was saying that they would tax 'mansions' extra, rather than just making council tax - which claims to cover 'adult social care' - sensible enough for me and my sad little flat not to be paying a third of what the million pound houses ten minutes away are.

[Yevrah]

Council Tax has always baffled me. I literally pay only a few hundred quid less than someone living in a mansion and only 25% less than the 8+ people living next door to me do jointly. I don't know the details of the Poll Tax, but it must have been going some to be more unfair than that.

[Lewis]

I think the boundaries/amounts have just barely changed since it was introduced. I would like to see a model of if it was something like 0.5% of the house value. I think mine works out at almost two per cent of the value, which is just laughable compared to the million pound houses.

[niko_cee]

Defining value is the problem though.

I think we do it on a square foot/size basis here, which whilst probably regressive in some other way seems fairer in principle. I never really understood the UK band system.

[Don]

They're currently based on house prices in something like 1990, just update the fucking values to begin with.

[Lofty]

This is where the MANSION TAX was a missed opportunity. All the crying about 'what about some pensioner who...' If you can't afford to run the house - and taxes are a part of that - why should you keep it? It's the same logic as the BEDROOM TAX. Where they fucked it was saying that they would tax 'mansions' extra, rather than just making council tax - which claims to cover 'adult social care' - sensible enough for me and my sad little flat not to be paying a third of what the million pound houses ten minutes away are.

They helped bin that off by putting Miliband on tv against Mylene Klass where whatever he rebutted her with would be seen as negative. Obviously that wasn't why he lost the election but I think that put paid to the idea as a whole.

[Yevrah]

When you legitimise Myleene Klass as a political opponent you should know you're in trouble...

[Lofty]

'You can't just point at things and tax them' was the peak of her argument.

[igor_balis]

Let the councils pay the council tax, I pay the Igor tax.

[phonics]

Can someone explain this policy to me as someone who’s moving back from a country with obligatory private health coverage.

I’ve just seen a headline say something that I understood to be a tax on working people described as ‘a kick in the teeth for pensioners’ and I highly doubt a Tory policy has screwed over pensioners to help young people.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's probably ending the pensions triple lock which was described as that (don't ask me what the pensions triple lock is). Social care being funded by a national insurance rise is the opposite.

[phonics]

That was rather unhelpful.

[Lewis]

1436425928889016324

:happycry:

[Spikey M]

That was rather unhelpful.

I don't really understand the triple lock, but basically it's a guarantee that state pension will rise each year matched to economic performance. However, because of the economic recovery after lockdown this would have given the pensioners a big rise this year. So they've said its a quirk of the system (which it is to be fair) and they're refusing to honour it. So fear not, only poor pensioners are being affected. Tories are still Torying.

On the other hand, they've decided to increase funding for social care and have done so by increasing National Insurance. This means normal working people (earning between £9000 and £50000 per year) will see their NI increased by 12%. Meanwhile Tory voters (the old, the rich, landlords etc) are unaffected because only working people pay NI.

[Giggles]

Colour me shocked.


1437509169968558085

[Giggles]

I really want the antibbctvlicence guy in the replies to be Jimmy.

1438525966565789704

[Lofty]

The government is bringing back imperial weights and measures for fruit and veg as well, for some reason.

Edit: just realised the tweet covers that, was mid way through pushing a turd and just thought it was the crown pint glass shit.

Is it this easy to trick idiots into thinking this is a major victory? Is this what was promised?

I was arguing with some tit the other day who completely refuted that the current issues in haulage are at all influenced by Brexit. 'The haulage industry has been struggling with driver shortages for 15-20 years' he lectured me. 'Funny how there was plenty of drivers working last summer when Covid was rife' I countered, no reply offered. Even my Brexit supporting father in law who works in haulage concedes it's all Brexit.

[Ian]

That's traitor talk, Lofty. To the gallows with you.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It is a major victory if you think that 'Get things back to how they were when I had a libido and a future' should be the basis of all policy, which is basically how boomers think and vote.

[Ian]

Joke's on them, there won't be any food to weigh in imperial measures anyway.

[Lewis]

Why isn't lorry driving generally a more desirable career? It can't ever have been easier with automatics and satellite navigation and all the rest.

[Shindig]

Probably the fear of getting 12 years because some Vietnamese climbed onboard.

[Don]

It's usually night hours rather than usual working hours, right? That, the isolation and the sitting about must wreck your mental and physical health.

[randomlegend]

Why isn't lorry driving generally a more desirable career? It can't ever have been easier with automatics and satellite navigation and all the rest.

Long hours, boring, lot of time away from home.

[Ian]

And it's probably getting harder and harder to get away with the murders.

[Shindig]

And the rape.

[Spikey M]

Why isn't lorry driving generally a more desirable career? It can't ever have been easier with automatics and satellite navigation and all the rest.

Even if Waitrose came knocking and offered me their £50k per year I'd be thinking twice.

Driving for hours on end, in a vehicle too big for the roads, targets that don't allow for traffic, laws that prohibit you from driving more than x hours to catch up and sleeping in your cab at service stations for however long it takes to get Cat food from Turkmenistan to Bolton.

Fuck that.

[Yevrah]

I can't think of many worse jobs.

[Lewis]

If The All New Jobs Thread is anything to go by then most jobs are boring and shit. Lorry driving, now that the pay is on the up, sounds miles better than random office dickhead. Sitting there holding the traffic up, tunes on the go, talking to yourself. All in a big lorry.

[niko_cee]

I had no idea the crown thing wasn't on pints anymore, or do we just get all the non-compliant rejects/old stock over here?

[Ian]

I'm a beer wank and I don't even know what the fuck it means so I'll just assume it's a load of old shit that means nothing but makes our bacony elders happy and gives them a Royalty-powered semi while they're drinking.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It basically means that the Queen vouches that this is an actual pint, and the dastardly commoner landlord isn't having you over by passing off smaller glaases as a pint.

[niko_cee]

Also, I don't think I can ever recall seeing a pint glass with the CE mark on it.

The only thing that sticks in my mind is the number 2043 which I think refers to a French glass manufacturer.

[Offshore Toon]

If The All New Jobs Thread is anything to go by then most jobs are boring and shit. Lorry driving, now that the pay is on the up, sounds miles better than random office dickhead. Sitting there holding the traffic up, tunes on the go, talking to yourself. All in a big lorry.
It depends on how the shifts work, but I basically feel the same way you do. Being by yourself with whatever music you want trumps most other work environments, and worst case scenario you can surely just catch some kip in the back with the prostitutes.

[randomlegend]

Office jobs are (supposed to be) 9-5 in the main though right? My understanding is that lorry driving basically takes over your life.

[Pepe]

Not if it is done locally. Traveling long distances, it does.

In the U S of A, they cannot legally drive for more than eight hours per day. Or at least that's what the driver who delivered my car a while ago told me.

[Spikey M]

If you're happy giving up your life, you're best off just working out on the oil rigg. They earn £50k minimum and only work for 6 months of the year.

[Kikó]

It does make you go bald, see what happened to Foe.

[Pepe]

Someone who rode with the same groups I did all the time was a truck driver. Local deliveries only. He seemed to have plenty of time to ride his bicycle around, and can't have been that poor. He also said that they always had job openings. That does sound better than working in fast food or something.

[randomlegend]

Not if it is done locally. Traveling long distances, it does.

In the U S of A, they cannot legally drive for more than eight hours per day. Or at least that's what the driver who delivered my car a while ago told me.

Do they actually stick to the maximum hours though?

On that note, I can't understand how 48 hour on-calls are still legal in medicine.

[Pepe]

Do they actually stick to the maximum hours though?

He claims they enforced it pretty heavily. He actually wanted to drive longer, since more driving = more money. Driving only eight hours a day means that you start your trip in the morning and then you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do once you've done your eight hours.

[Spikey M]

Presumably they have to use a Tacograph over there too.

A Tacograph is probably a very different thing in Mexico.

[Yevrah]

They've all got tachometers in their vehicles, so if they work for any sort of halfway house reputable organisation they have to stick to the rules.

[Lewis]

On a related note, how much do couriers end up with after their costs? The shitter GIG ECONOMY sob stories tend to tie in to some clown financing a plush van as part of it, but if you had your own banger, like the woman who seemed to do all of it back home from her estate car, it could probably be a decent job.

[Offshore Toon]

I was just chatting to someone 20 minutes ago about that and she said once you know your route you can get £20 an hour. They gave her a van too.

[niko_cee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58593615

I know there's the culture war and all, but what the fuck is this all about?

Labour's former candidate to be Tees Valley mayor, Jessie Joe Jacobs, accused Ms Dorries of "cultural vandalism".


"The Dorman Long tower is one of UK's best examples of brutalist architecture and a proud symbol of Teesside's industrial heritage. This is just tragic,"

It's not, perhaps, not really.

[Spikey M]

It's a fucking eyesore.

[Disco]

It's a cool building but it's about 20 years too late to be trying to 'save' it.

[Shindig]

Yeah, I didn't feel aggrieved when they knocked the Gateshead multi-storey down. It was falling to bits to start with. You can only save something if there's a solid plan for its future.

[Lofty]

The thing with lorry driving is there are not as many secure car parks and truckhavens and drivers like to cheap out on it which is why you seem them parked up everywhere in the evening. They leave the doors open to show thieves they are running empty. My mrs company will pay you £80k annually(probably more now) to run the show yourself so you work for them but provide vehicle, fuel etc. Could be a decent screw depending how you work. But the job is tenuous. I know lads used to pay people a good wedge just to ride out with them for company (and to make sure they didn't fall asleep.

[niko_cee]

You provide the HGV?

[Giggles]

You provide the HGV?

Most places nowadays you have to. Another reason it’s fucked.

[Lewis]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58593615

I know there's the culture war and all, but what the fuck is this all about?

Labour's former candidate to be Tees Valley mayor, Jessie Joe Jacobs, accused Ms Dorries of "cultural vandalism".

It's not, perhaps, not really.

Hull has an old port authority building that the council keeps sinking development schemes over because the various developers refuse to stump up to re-develop some shitty old building full of asbestos in the middle of the otherwise prime development ground.

[Spikey M]

Yeah... what? :D

"Driver wanted.

Excellent rates.

Must provide own transport (20 tonne Articulated Lorry)"

[Baz]

You still see hitchhiking mugs waiting on motorway slip roads needing to be picked up cos they switched shifts and had no way to get home. It’s bizarre.

[Lofty]

Some lad at my mrs work once didn't realise he had cocked up a job until he was having his tea and a lorry turned up outside his house - he'd given his own post code instead of the delivery post code :D He didn't last long in the job after that.

[randomlegend]

:lol:

[Spikey M]

1439341124439707655?s=19

Never mind protesting, we should be going full Guy Fawkes at this point.

[Lewis]

Putting shitty slogans like that in actual government departments is seriously cringe, like when they turned Education into 'Children, Schools and Families'. Embarrassing. It's the sort of thing Sweden would do.

[Yevrah]

The sort of thing Sweden would do. :D

On the plus side, I guess we now have a measure for when we get a proper leader. Anyone renaming all that crap would get my attention.

[Spikey M]

The Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport will be The Department of Ballers and Banter by Christmas.

[Lewis]

Maybe 'Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office' was the end of serious country status.

[Jimmy Floyd]

No government department should have a comma in the name.

[Lofty]

Liz Truss is Foreign Secretary, we are all just living in an Armando Ianucci skit now.

[niko_cee]

Real life surpassed satire in the political world quite a few years ago now.

I'm struggling to put my finger on the precise event, but I'm sure something happened that actually was in The Thick Of It.

[Yevrah]

I don't know if he or Roy Hodgson caused it, but everything started to go irreversibly wrong when Harry Kane started taking corners.

[Lewis]

Foreign Secretary has been a non-job for about sixty years, but you get the big office (which is falling to bits) and a load of foreign travel, so they all think it's a major promotion.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think it was Ferguson leaving Man Utd. The country's been an out-of-kilter mess ever since.

[niko_cee]

Robin Cook was all about the house you get to live in wasn't he? To the point that one of his conditions for resigning/stepping down/whatever happened was that he could carry on living there, no?

[niko_cee]

The French seethe from this submarine thing is the best thing that's happened in politics since ages.

Jean-Yves 'deal down' Le Drian has been coming out with some top tier shit.

Definitely my favourite appropriately named foreign chap since Maurizio Arrivebene.

[Queenslander]

The Rainbow Warrior incident has popped up in conversation this week.

We really should be kicking them with that for the rest of time.

[Spikey M]

The French seethe from this submarine thing is the best thing that's happened in politics since ages.

Jean-Yves 'deal down' Le Drian has been coming out with some top tier shit.

Definitely my favourite appropriately named foreign chap since Maurizio Arrivebene.

I do wonder who the fuck they think they are.

Are we still sharing that aircraft carrier with them? We should demand our half back.

[Spikey M]

1439896456165482498?s=19

Lol

[Lewis]

1439932726463840257

:lol:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Russia dunking the French on twitter, doesn't get any better.

[Spikey M]

https://youtu.be/4EcEuwiPMMo

[Lewis]

Even better than the French seething is the remain nonce seething, playing it down, or making out that we have made some major mistake. Imagine if America, Australia and the European Union had signed a comparable agreement (which they couldn't because we will probably be doing most of the technology transfer). It would be wall-to-wall end of days stuff.

[Lofty]

Just the energy and food crisis instead, eh?

[Lewis]

The energy stuff isn't Brexit-related. Food I don't know. I haven't noticed any shortages of what I buy so what do I care.

[Ian]

Hush, Lofty, it's only The Left who react to news selectively.

[Lewis]

A few supply chain niggles during a casedemic aren't really comparable are they.

[Spikey M]

1440973322355978240?s=19

[Queenslander]

:lol:

[Lewis]

A bit more of his after dinner bollocks falling flat at 'serious' events and I will be back on board.

[Shindig]

"Okay, we have a housing crisis and a climate crisis."
"Treehouses."
"Fuck, that's genius."

[Spikey M]

Just found out Asda and Tesco are both out of petrol and the queue for the petrol station at Waitrose has caused an hour long hold up on the A127.

TEAM FEAR have donned us all. Atleast I voted remain so I can be smug about it in my cold, foodless, dark house.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why are people panic buying fuel? Since when is there a fuel shortage?

[Spikey M]

BP announced that they were having to close some petrol stations yesterday as they don't have enough drivers to get the petrol to the stations.

I imagine this has caused a run on the stations to fill up and Old Barry currently has a barrel of petrol in his shed, despite only driving to the shop for his paper once a day for the last 6 years.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Burn the boomers.

[Spikey M]

1441128701777776642?s=19

Absolutely mental.

[Boydy]

1441346790373003265

[Lofty]

1441128701777776642?s=19

Absolutely mental.

Not really, there isn't any opposition.

[Spikey M]

Not really, there isn't any opposition.

There shouldn't really need to be. There are few parties I wouldn't vote for over this lot.

The new Labour Leader could be a turd, freshly culed out by Jeremy Corbyn and I'd still vote for it over these cunts. An actual shit would be less shit than this.

[Lewis]

An actual shit would merely be similar to this, except with even more immigrants. Hence the polls.

[Giggles]

The actual specifics of these Christmas turkey visas are hilarious. Absolute chancer.

[Boydy]

1442385271031480325

Lol, who'd have thought a shit temporary 3 month visa wouldn't be that attractive?

[Giggles]

1442385271031480325

Lol, who'd have thought a shit temporary 3 month visa wouldn't be that attractive?

It’s for only about 6 weeks pay as well once you take all the charges for application, etc out of it.

[Spikey M]

They're just being unreasonable. Imagine if someone in need politely said to you:

"listen foreign scum, we're in a bit of a sitch, and we need you - We don't WANT you, to be clear - but you are unfortunately our only option."

I for one would be straight over to help.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If the government had any vision re Brexit they would have made loads of visa exemptions for things like truck drivers, toilet cleaners, taxi drivers, chicken stranglers, strip club dancers, roadside murderers etc. A good Brexit, which is possible by the way unless you believe a pan-continental superstate is literally the only way to govern human activities, would be utterly unconcerned about immigration.

Unfortunately the current Tories are in hoc to the weirdo fringe of the party who have no vision beyond the Jaguar logo at the end of their bonnet, and the Telegraph-reading scowling boomers who vote for them on Thursdays and prowl the Marks & Spencers food hall for expensive gravy on the other six days of the week.

[Yevrah]

What I'd really love to know is, Pandemic aside, what do huge swathes of our population actually do for money.

[Boydy]

What I'd really love to know is, Pandemic aside, what do huge swathes of our population actually do for money.

Own houses.

[Boydy]

If the government had any vision re Brexit they would have made loads of visa exemptions for things like truck drivers, toilet cleaners, taxi drivers, chicken stranglers, strip club dancers, roadside murderers etc. A good Brexit, which is possible by the way unless you believe a pan-continental superstate is literally the only way to govern human activities, would be utterly unconcerned about immigration.


Sure but anti-immigration sentiment is what drove a good chunk of the vote, right?

[Lofty]

The UK economy is propped up by coffee shops and phone shops, as Thatcher envisioned. Service economy innit. Thanks to the internet people are more aspirational than ever, regardless of the merit of those aspirations. They see melts like Mrs Hinch getting £25k per instagram ad for pouring bleach down her bog and want the same. Kids want to be pro game streamers. How many 'models' are there now thanks to social media.

The shit jobs have never been as unappealing to people, and it will only get worse. Even if it isn't a shit job for the money, people are averse to hard work. I remember when I was training for the railway I saw a documentary where they followed the european veg pickers, showing them do 6-6 and getting £10 and hour. The crew then went to the job centre and local college offering people work for that wage, everyone was interested until they found out what it was. This was 2008.

The best bit is all the naysayers on social media claiming it's nothing to do with Brexit despite the industry experts and the goverment policy to remedy the problems suggesting otherwise.

[Yevrah]

But what are the £10 an hour brigade who were born here and don't want to do shit jobs actually doing? They can't all be streamers and cam models.

When I was much younger me and my friends worked in retail and McDonalds for cash, I just don't get what that's been replaced by.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Sure but anti-immigration sentiment is what drove a good chunk of the vote, right?

Probably. We have collectively despised immigrants for two thousand years, so why stop now.

[Jimmy Floyd]

But what are the £10 an hour brigade who were born here and don't want to do shit jobs actually doing? They can't all be streamers and cam models.

When I was much younger me and my friends worked in retail and McDonalds for cash, I just don't get what that's been replaced by.

'Studying'

I know a couple of people my age (33) who still don't work full time as they have dragged out their education via bank of mum and dad, the odd stint working in a bar/shop, and repeated dropouts / masters / etc. I've long since decided they just don't fancy work.

This option presumably isn't open to those without the family means, so god knows what they do.

[Spikey M]

Aren't a large proportion of "employed" people done so on a 0 hours contract too? I can't remember the stat, but there's a fair number of employed people that are only employed on paper and haven't had work in a long time.

[Boydy]

But what are the £10 an hour brigade who were born here and don't want to do shit jobs actually doing? They can't all be streamers and cam models.

When I was much younger me and my friends worked in retail and McDonalds for cash, I just don't get what that's been replaced by.

People do still work in McDonalds and retail.

[Spikey M]

People do still work in McDonalds and retail.

You can hardly call them people.

[Lofty]

A lot are online shopping warehouse slaves or employed some way or another in non clinical NHS roles it seems. The ones milking the thursday night claps and using their work ID to queue jump despite working at home on cushy hours during the pandemic.

I do think aspiration shifts have caused a lot of problems though. Kids now just grew up with the internet as the omnipresent answer to everything, available almost everywhere. We are all pretty much the last generation to have grown up without that.

Everyone's view is warped by what their phone is telling them, real or not. It's the same way everyone complains behaviour is getting worse on news articles. In actual fact these things were likely happening in the past but you weren't as plugged in because you didn't have the means. A girl I know vaguely from an old group I used to drink with in a now demolished pub was complaining on facebook about her son getting beaten up in a playground. I could extrapolate that news into the view that all playgrounds are unsafe, that is information I would have never known pre-social media. I think this inability to deal with a flood of information (and disinformation) is what will define our era.

[randomlegend]

But what are the £10 an hour brigade who were born here and don't want to do shit jobs actually doing?

Having loads of kids?

[Ian]

And calling them Khaos.

[Spikey M]

This weekend?

[randomlegend]

And calling them Khaos.

I have seen "Goldenboy" as a middle name and one of the consultants swears they have met a La-a (google says that name is an urban legend but this guy isn't the type to make it up).

[Ian]

Is that 'Ladasha' or something? I've heard tell of multiple variants of that.

[randomlegend]

Yeah, Ladasha.

[Spikey M]

Nobody will ever top Elon Musks cunt kid, so everyone should just give up.

[Boydy]

Nobody will ever top Elon Musks cunt kid, so everyone should just give up.

Speaking of which:

1442280753136558081

:D

[Spikey M]

I'm putting that on the "No you didn't, Shut up" list along with my dickhead ex colleague that claimed she thought the moon was just the sun at night time.

Nobody is that stupid.

[randomlegend]

They definitely are.

[Disco]

The last year or two have made it very apparent that many people are at least that stupid.

[Shindig]

Yep. The internet just makes them slightly more visible.

[phonics]

As someone who’s said they should bump the minimum wage I’m not complaining but I do find it odd that the ones pushing for it are asking for the same number as the left is in America despite the huge difference in Standard of Living. I know a lot of the Bernie people and the Corbyn wing of the party have a lot of people that worked on both campaigns. Just seems too coincidental.

[phonics]

On the job front, there’s an absolutely insane amount of the workforce working in call centres trying to get you to swap your insurance company or gas provider because nothing much actually changes for the consumers apart from the name on the top. The callers get a pittance of commission but anyone that does swap gets locked into two years of that company getting paid not the competitor so it works for them.

[Jimmy Floyd]

£15 an hour is a very high number to get past the electorate at large I think. If you think ten is low then go twelve or something. £15 an hour is, like, £28k salary on full time hours? 30k even? There would be utter chaos if that came in suddenly.

Our current minimum wage is already the world's 7th highest if the PPP-adjusted wikipedia table is at all credible. £15 an hour would be about $20.50, the highest globally at the moment is $16 and that country (Argentina, weirdly) is the only one above $13.

[Yevrah]

Yep. Double the £'s and multiply the result by a thousand and you get the rough annual salary.

[Pepe]

£15 is a whole lot more than $15. Also, the minimum wage might be $7.25 here, but even Walmart is offering $14 minimum right now.

[Spikey M]

Surely this would just increase inflation further anyway? If people are getting paid more, employers will increase prices in line with it.

[phonics]

Surely this would just increase inflation further anyway? If people are getting paid more, employers will increase prices in line with it.

One of the big chains in the US went from 9 dollars to 16 dollars and it resulted in a 12 cent increase on the average order while paying every staff member 7 dollars more an hour and staff turnover dropped from 70% to 30.

Wages haven’t risen in decades while the cost of living has. It barely effects the supply chain.

[Dquincy]

Labour conference motion to commit party to backing PR voting system has been defeated. Constituencies were in favour, but the unions were having none of it apparently.

Shame this opportunity was not taken to start removing first past the post voting.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/27/unions-vote-down-local-labour-parties-call-to-axe-first-past-the-post?__