UK General Election 2017 - 8 June

[Lewis]

He ('Chappers') will either have a book out soon, or he wants a bit of that sweet Ian Dunt/Nick Cohen MELTDOWN money has to make up for lost time.

[Jimmy Floyd]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40952224

I get that Labour are idiots, but why is that a resigning matter?

[Lewis]

For the same reason they half-arse the anti-Semitism stuff.

[GS]

We're in bother if the statement of fact is suppressed because it goes against the prevailing view of 'diversity', 'tolerance', and other such wooly concepts.

[Yevrah]

There was a top copper on the news the other day refusing to single out the usual (majority) suspects behind these things.

I don't even know who's driving the boat on whitewashing that sort of thing away these days.

I mean, take the article Jim's posted and this bit:


Among the article's critics was fellow Labour MP Naz Shah, who said it was "irresponsible" and "setting a dangerous precedent".

Does he agree with the sentiment and would just have preferred fluffier language to be used, or is he actually disputing the basic premise of her point?

[Lewis]

She is the MP for Bradford West, so, whilst I would go with the latter, I suspect they actually lean more towards not wanting to know either way.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm sure Peter Oborne will be along shortly with a mental thinkpiece in support of the bearded burghers. Oh well, at least Rod Liddle will be able to spin three columns out of it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Oh and it seems 'Chappers' has finally gone over the edge, calling Theresa May a Nazi and then having his account deleted. Goodnight, sweet prince.

[phonics]

It's early and I don't follow UK politics twitter as closely as the US.

I thought you were talking about this Chappers.

http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article9304472.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Mark-Chapman-presenting-MOTD2.jpg

[phonics]

MPs are holding a minutes silence for Big Ben. We are literally mourning the passage of time at this point.

[Raoul Duke]

#bellend

[GS]

I don't think they were being serious.

Much of this is simply because there's nothing else of consequence happening during the summer recess, and they need something to write about.

[Lewis]

The people moaning about it were taking it more seriously than the people doing it, which, when you think about it, sums up most of the past seven years.

[phonics]

The people moaning about it were taking it more seriously than the people doing it, which, when you think about it, sums up most of the past seven years.

This is an MP literally crying over it.

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article11025745.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/DHv6NTMXsAESe0V.jpg

[GS]

One MP (a Labour one, no less) out of 650.

Definitely a mass movement.

[John]

We are literally mourning the passage of time at this point.

Figuratively. You mean figuratively.

[phonics]

Figuratively. You mean figuratively.

Take it up with the Webster, MacMillian and Cambridge dictionaries.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think there's a scintilla of a chance that the MP pictured above may be taking the piss.

[GS]

I think there's a scintilla of a chance that the MP pictured above may be taking the piss.

He says he wasn't, but then you'd expect he's simply engaging in a mass trolling exercise to trigger idiots.

If it was Peter Bone, it may have been different.

[John]

Take it up with the Webster, MacMillian and Cambridge dictionaries.

The dictionaries bowing to idiots who want to use words incorrectly doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

[John]

I'm almost certain that MP is one of two who popped up on BBC news last night to say we needed to find another way to protect the hearing of those working on it. The bell is 'part of what it means to be British' and 'must keep bonging', apparently.

[Lewis]

There was a top copper on the news the other day refusing to single out the usual (majority) suspects behind these things.

I don't even know who's driving the boat on whitewashing that sort of thing away these days.

I mean, take the article Jim's posted and this bit:

Does he agree with the sentiment and would just have preferred fluffier language to be used, or is he actually disputing the basic premise of her point?


She is the MP for Bradford West, so, whilst I would go with the latter, I suspect they actually lean more towards not wanting to know either way.

It was a few days ago, but the papers are leaning into this (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4299167/corbyn-ally-shares-message-telling-rotherham-sex-abuse-victims-to-be-quiet-for-the-good-of-diversity/) now. As if I was right.

[John]

Naz Shah is a cunt and an idiot who should have been booted out of parliament a long time ago, but it'd be incredibly lol if she got punted for that.

[GS]

When you live in a country where you're forced to apologise for eating meat (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-41012135), you probably can't get away with that sort of thing.

[Yevrah]

It was a few days ago, but the papers are leaning into this (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4299167/corbyn-ally-shares-message-telling-rotherham-sex-abuse-victims-to-be-quiet-for-the-good-of-diversity/) now. As if I was right.

Interestingly, that story hasn't made the BBC website.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

The only good thing that bint has done was unseating Galloway just to get his reaction.

[John Arne]

Can somebody explain one thing to me.
Regarding the Ireland / N.Ireland border.... I believe that the UK has said it wants to keep the current no border option, Ireland has said that it wants to keep the no border option - yet the EU are coming out with comments such as "clown ideas" - is this just a case of the EU being difficult as to not encourage other countries to leave the EU (as is their right, I guess).

If the above is the case, just how much power does the EU have other the border controls of it's nations? Ireland is still a sovereign state...

[Henry]

Can somebody explain one thing to me.
Regarding the Ireland / N.Ireland border.... I believe that the UK has said it wants to keep the current no border option, Ireland has said that it wants to keep the no border option - yet the EU are coming out with comments such as "clown ideas" - is this just a case of the EU being difficult as to not encourage other countries to leave the EU (as is their right, I guess).

If the above is the case, just how much power does the EU have other the border controls of it's nations? Ireland is still a sovereign state...

The point is that the UK can't leave the customs union and restrict immigration while leaving the border open. Their position is contradictory.
Not sure what "power" the EU have in this area but one assumes that it's substantial.

[Dave.]

The point is that the UK can't leave the customs union and restrict immigration while leaving the border open. Their position is contradictory.
Not sure what "power" the EU have in this area but one assumes that it's substantial.

What's the Ireland position on this? Am I correct in assuming they want to leave the border open?

[John Arne]

The point is that the UK can't leave the customs union and restrict immigration while leaving the border open. Their position is contradictory.
Not sure what "power" the EU have in this area but one assumes that it's substantial.

Cheers.

So what if it's contradictory? It's up to the UK and Ireland to strike a deal on the border - if both countries decide then to have more stringent border controls with other countries - surely it's their prerogative - contradictory or not?

EDIT: that said, I do appreciate the realistic issues with this, being that tourists or immigrants just casually walking over the border into N.Ireland.

[phonics]

Cheers.

So what if it's contradictory? It's up to the UK and Ireland to strike a deal on the border - if both countries decide then to have more stringent border controls with other countries - surely it's the prerogative - contradictory or not?

The UK/Ireland want an open border. The EU don't because then you could just smuggle goods across that border or get into the EU via Ireland.

[GS]

The point is that the UK can't leave the customs union and restrict immigration while leaving the border open. Their position is contradictory.
Not sure what "power" the EU have in this area but one assumes that it's substantial.

They can if there is a full free trade deal with mutual standard recognition. You could use electronic methods for registering shipments outside a trade deal, but some customs checks become inevitable.

The issue is an attempt to frame the border as a 'primary issue' prior to discussing the trading arrangement. The border will be entirely dependent on the outcome of that. The immigration issue is a nonsense, as outlined below.


The UK/Ireland want an open border. The EU don't because then you could just smuggle goods across that border or get into the EU via Ireland.

Ireland is outside Schengen. Ergo passport controls are in place. Someone could come into NI via the south, but they couldn't work legally as they wouldn't get an NI number. Therefore if they were going to work illegally they might as well just fly into the UK itself. It's a non issue.

The issue is customs, the outcome of which is entirely predicated on the trade deal. Now, when one looks at the issue in terms of actual numbers (for 2015, as the most recent year available), 63% of NI goods are sold within NI. 22% are sold to GB. Only 6% are sold to ROI (and an additional 3% to the rest of the EU).

Northern Ireland actually sells more goods to the rest of the world than to the south. It'll have a disproportionate impact on the border communities who border hop for work but it's hardly the end of all things. It's being whipped up by arch remainers to pretend it'll reopen the troubles and thus we shouldn't go ahead with leaving, and by the nationalists to try and leverage it as an issue to push a united Ireland. The latter is demonstrably failing as evidenced by the latest Life and Times survey on the constitutional question.

In contrast, the south exports around 12% of its goods to the UK. More importantly, it imports not a kick in the arse off 30% from us. Ergo it's a far bigger problem for them. Varadkar isn't helping matters by being belligerent rather than constructive. The taoiseach never helps himself if he uses language designed to appeal to the more disgruntled elements of northern nationalism.

[Lewis]

I appreciate that the remain dickheads 'support' the European Union in all of this, and seem to swallow their negotiation points as if they were coming from a concerned parent, but it does amaze me how them being unwilling to compromise over an actual warzone is seen further proof of their benevolence and our idiocy.

[GS]

It's genuinely fascinating to see some of them seemingly want the entire thing to fall apart just to 'prove' their original warnings.

[Lewis]

I think they just hate Britain. Being 'right' is merely an added bonus.

[GS]

That too. It's fucking bizarre.

[phonics]

lol.

[Lewis]

There is clearly a sub-section of fannies who prefer all things 'Europe' (by which I mean their imagined version of it), and see our being part of it as the only thing stopping us making Nigel Farage Lord Protector.

[Boydy]

Oh yeah, cause the ones who love all things British don't have imagined versions of that in their head.

[phonics]

lol

[Lewis]

Subscribing to a misty-eyed version of history isn't really comparable to thinking that the European Union confers liberal values on sixty million backwoodsmen.

[phonics]

Lol

[GS]

Risible.

Anyway:

902643940863696896

This is a surprise.

[GS]

From the Europe editor of the Telegraph:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIglQfkXcAAQU-j.jpg

No doubt Continuity Remain will demand to know why we're not offering to hand over the full sum with a covering note of apology.

[Lewis]

I wonder who the 'young man from Whitehall' was. Probably the person who leaked the story.

[GS]

He'll be character assassinated in the Guardian soon enough for refusing to genuflect in front of our benevolent European overlords.

[Yevrah]

Presumably you could make that entire story up and no-one would be any the wiser.

[GS]

Well, obviously.

[Yevrah]

Well one wonders why you've chosen to post it verbatim in retarded font size then.

[Lewis]

Because it's funny, which is the whole point.

[GS]

It was also from the Europe editor of the Telegraph, which means it's likely to be on the "probably true" side of the sliding scale of bullshit.

[ItalAussie]

The Guardian of the right.

[Yevrah]

Just caught a bit of it on the news and it sounds like even more of a shitfest than I'd imagined.

We're not leaving.

[McAvennie]

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that in this negotiation one side says they want billions, the other side says you can have nothing, and presumably at some point both sides will settle for something in between that both sides think they can live with.

And regardless of what that amount is the government will be lambasted by all sides for not getting it right.

Which presumably is the pattern for every issue in the Brexit process.

[Raoul Duke]

That article just reads like some cokehead Tory dickwad trying to give it the big 'un.

[niko_cee]

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that in this negotiation one side says they want billions, the other side says you can have nothing, and presumably at some point both sides will settle for something in between that both sides think they can live with.

And regardless of what that amount is the government will be lambasted by all sides for not getting it right.

Which presumably is the pattern for every issue in the Brexit process.

Unless one or both sides are dead set on ideological oblivion regardless of the consequences.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Last night I dreamed that there was an election and the Lib Dems won a huge landslide, reducing Cons and Labour to around 20 seats each. Vince Cable was about to become PM, but then Theresa May stayed in power because the election was 'only advisory'.

Didn't know I had a knobhead satirical subconscious.

[GS]

The Guardian of the right.

The same story is in the Guardian today, mate.

[phonics]

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that in this negotiation one side says they want billions, the other side says you can have nothing, and presumably at some point both sides will settle for something in between that both sides think they can live with.

And regardless of what that amount is the government will be lambasted by all sides for not getting it right.

Which presumably is the pattern for every issue in the Brexit process.

I saw this today and just laughed

903247466413350912

[Jimmy Floyd]

The coverage is laughable. Both sides are doing the same thing which is adopting a negotiating position. The Brit position is obviously 'a deal is close' and the EU position is 'a deal is nowhere near' and this will be the same, regardless of what happens, until the deal is signed. The Remain-dominated media suck EU cock - 'Oh, how clever they are! These continental minds!' (most of these journos should genuinely be fired from their jobs and never work again), while the loony Leavers seethe for reasons unknown.

It's almost as if none of them have ever done a real job.

[GS]

"Being serious" and "making progress" appear to be synonyms for "agreeing with the EU".

I don't know what Continuity Remain are expecting, frankly.

[ItalAussie]

The same story is in the Guardian today, mate.

More a counter-claim to your assessment that the Telegraph is any less unreliable or ideologically motivated.

They're both happy to spin for their own side.

[McAvennie]

What's the opposite of Continuity Remain? the Real Brexiteers?

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Telegraph isn't even a newspaper these days, just a click generation exercise. In fact they both are.

[Raoul Duke]

The Telegraph isn't even a newspaper these days, just a click generation exercise. In fact they both are.

That's all newspapers have ever been, it's just more transparent/measurable now.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I would say that in the past (until 5-10 years ago) they had more than enough room to manoeuvre that they could perform a public service role and produce quality output for its own sake, or to put it another way, people would pay money for the quality output.

[Raoul Duke]

Counter argument: The Sun is the biggest selling paper

[Lewis]

Because it has a sense of humour (probably the only paper with one). People always seem to miss that.

[GS]

The summer recess finishes this week, so the whole thing is kicking off again. I'm sure you're all thrilled.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scots-and-english-hold-similar-views-on-immigration-poll-1-4549780

59% No, with no discernible difference between Scotland and England on the desired level of immigration. It's a shame that Sebo isn't about, to explain away Krankie's dreadful misjudgements earlier in the year.

[Lewis]

Elsewhere, Michel Barnier appears to have said out loud what everybody already knew about their intentions, so we might as well tell them to get fucked, pull our monies immediately, and start rounding up the immigrants.

[GS]

It sort of proves why it was sensible to get out now, really. It's a dreadful organisation.

[niko_cee]

We should educate his people on the consequences of not buying any of their dreadful wine.

As an aside, I had a baguette from Asda the other day which proudly proclaimed itself to be made from 100% French flour. Seriously, what the fuck is that all about?

[GS]

904294403820314624

:harold:

[Lewis]

The days when 'Lord Adonis' was all the rage seem a long, long time ago. Bald twat.

[Lewis]

We should educate his people on the consequences of not buying any of their dreadful wine.

As an aside, I had a baguette from Asda the other day which proudly proclaimed itself to be made from 100% French flour. Seriously, what the fuck is that all about?

I've always thought that bread is a massive blind spot for Asda. Their bakery is shit compared to their rivals, although Sainsbury's is probably the worst simply for caving to that 'giraffe bread' arsehole.

[Magic]

:sick:

It's great you plonker. LIDL is the best though.

[GS]

The latest tracker poll on the EU vote has it at 52-48 leave if the vote was held tomorrow.

You have to laugh.

[phonics]

He's back on the polls are relevant train folks.

[Yevrah]

I'd be surprised if there hadn't been a swing to remain, which is ultimately what we're going to end up doing anyway, perhaps in all but name.

[GS]

He's back on the polls are relevant train folks.

Polls are useful to identify trend. Try to remember things you're told previously rather than defaulting to your usual idiocy and showing yourself up.

[GS]

I'd be surprised if there hadn't been a swing to remain, which is ultimately what we're going to end up doing anyway, perhaps in all but name.

There has been zero trend towards it in the last 14 months. That's not to say it won't still happen, but those who are predicating their entire strategy on capitalising on a sudden shift towards remain / reversal could be waiting a long fucking time.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'd be surprised if there hadn't been a swing to remain, which is ultimately what we're going to end up doing anyway, perhaps in all but name.

There's been a bit of a swing to remain in the media, as people realise dinner party places are under threat. In the real world, nothing has changed, and why would it.

[GS]

I don't think there's been any discernible change in the media. Everything that's happened has just been used to confirm what everybody already thought.

Articles in the Guardian and the BBC just get shared more because they're not sitting behind paywalls. Continuity Remain are also starting to come unhinged ('Chappers' and 'Lord' Adonis being good examples), exacerbating it.

[GS]

On a separate issue, Tim "Monty" Montgomery has his own website now and has done some polling. The standout is this, where apparently 40% of the YOUTH vote think 'freedom' is less important than 'equality'. Thick bastards.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DI-NcxuXgAAW8F4.jpg

[Lewis]

I reckon Tim Montgomerie is the most overrated pundit in the business. There are worse people, but they get CALLED OUT. Nobody ever seems to point out how shit 'Monty' is.

[Lewis]

And he actually spells it 'Montie'. Closet case twat.

[GS]

The ESTABLISHMENT journos all pile in to praise 'Janan' and that blonde one from the Guardian too, and they're both shite, self-satisfied chancers.

[Boydy]

Isn't his whole website meant to be about not following the herd but then they used a fucking cow for the logo?

[Lewis]

It's a real bag of bollocks, and the fact that there are people willing to sink money into it is baffling.

[GS]

People will pay for anything. There was some story on the BBC earlier about a woman gamer who earns above average wage from charging people to watch her play. I mean really.

[Lewis]

No, as in he has actual donors who pay for the office space and all sorts. Who has that great an interest in microwaved Francis Pym sermons?

[Shindig]

That happens more than you think, GS. It's twitch's entire business model. Almost entirely crowdfunded too so it has the sustainability of a short, wet fart.

[GS]

No, as in he has actual donors who pay for the office space and all sorts. Who has that great an interest in microwaved Francis Pym sermons?

Does he fuck.

[GS]

That happens more than you think, GS. It's twitch's entire business model. Almost entirely crowdfunded too so it has the sustainability of a short, wet fart.

Genuinely baffling.

[Shindig]

Some of it is skill based (speedruns and stuff) but a lot of it is down to personality. It's very dumb and populated by dumb people. Who are bankrolled by a generation of people who will RUIN OUR FUCKING PENSION POT.

[GS]

Are there not wankers who earn a living just by posting YouTube videos of themselves opening Ultimate Team packs?

The fucking state of this country.

[Shindig]

Yup. Although youtube's income is mostly ad-based. All you need is the audience for that.

[Jimmy Floyd]

No, as in he has actual donors who pay for the office space and all sorts. Who has that great an interest in microwaved Francis Pym sermons?

One day I'll take you on a weekend tour of the North London Wanker scene, it's basically about 30,000 people with loads of money, no idea what to do with it, and a massively inflated sense of their own importance. Absolutely ripe for creating a website like that.

[GS]

Perhaps we could get something going and pass our right wing shite off as satire.

[Lewis]

Once upon a time you could have just bought a peerage, but a certain somebody ruined that, so this is his fault.

[Lewis]

https://s26.postimg.org/i9ziz4ht5/DJH9_GB7_XUAQYEs_T.jpg

lol at the middle classes (and affiliated fannies) having a ten point preference over the actual working class. It looks as though it would be more if the C1 people were shunted down a level as well.

[Jimmy Floyd]

No one knows what either of them are.

[Spikey M]

Vomiting or diarrhoea? Tough one.

[Pepe]

What a question. :harold:

[ItalAussie]

That may be the stupidest poll I've ever seen.

[McAvennie]

No option for joining the armed resistance to either?

[Jimmy Floyd]

That may be the stupidest poll I've ever seen.

I worked at YouGov once and have seen this in action. What happens is that the manager of a particular team - a tall, languid, impossibly good looking chap called Freddie - strolls into the office with his soya latte and asks his minions, more the studious types with thick glasses, to throw him ideas for the daily poll.

'Do you prefer glamping or caravanning?'
'What's your favourite mollusc?'
'Which member of the Rolling Stones would be best suited to the post of Environment Secretary?'

He then chews his pen for a bit, says 'What about... preference between communism and fascism? If you HAD to choose?' and they all nod and go back to their data graphics.

[niko_cee]

It's funny a poll like that came about because I was talking to someone the other day about the disproportionate stigma attached to the 'politics of the right'. Ask someone to imagine a fascist and they'll think of a neo-nazi skinhead whereas a communist is much more likely to be a Jeremy Corbyn-esque 'yogurt-knitter', in the words of Wor Yev. It's impressive that Hitler and co so comprehensively fucked a wing of politics (without even being in it) whereas actual communists who were just as bad get an almost completely freehand from tainting their supposed ideology.

There has a to be a point where it becomes quite self-reinforcing as well, almost cultish (see Scotland and Thatcher).

[phonics]

It's funny a poll like that came about because I was talking to someone the other day about the disproportionate stigma attached to the 'politics of the right'. Ask someone to imagine a fascist and they'll think of a neo-nazi skinhead whereas a communist is much more likely to be a Jeremy Corbyn-esque 'yogurt-knitter', in the words of Wor Yev. It's impressive that Hitler and co so comprehensively fucked a wing of politics (without even being in it) whereas actual communists who were just as bad get an almost completely freehand from tainting their supposed ideology.

There has a to be a point where it becomes quite self-reinforcing as well, almost cultish (see Scotland and Thatcher).

Isn't that more a byproduct of the teaching that Stalin/China aren't/weren't actually communists so get disassociated from the Marxist ideas of the Communist Manifesto. Therefore allowing the argument that there hasn't ever been a communist society outside of a few cults like that weird place in Denmark with no laws.

That's what I was taught growing up at least.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I don't think there's any general doubt that Stalin and Mao were communists. It's more rooted in the absolute obsession with Hitler and Nazis in our culture at the expense of all other history, which oddly, in this context, usually comes from the same people who in other contexts urge us to dismiss World War II from our memories and focus more on the evils of the British Empire.

[phonics]

We concentrate on the Nazis/WWII because it's the only unambiguous Good V Evil war in history.

[niko_cee]

Isn't that more a byproduct of the teaching that Stalin/China aren't/weren't actually communists so get disassociated from the Marxist ideas of the Communist Manifesto. Therefore allowing the argument that there hasn't ever been a communist society outside of a few cults like that weird place in Denmark with no laws.

That's what I was taught growing up at least.

Aye, but I'm not sure gassing Jews and experimenting on the disabled are really central tenets of fascism, or even Nazism, but, as you say, communism gets away with beardy Das Kapital nostalgia and the other side gets skinheads, swastikas and a supposed desire to exterminate anything vaguely different.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You never hear much about the Khmer Rouge, who were surely the worst of them all. I guess that's a natural consequence of non-white lives having literally zero value in the white imagination (left and right wing).

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Khmer Rouge government arrested, tortured, and eventually executed anyone suspected of belonging to several categories of supposed "enemies", including:

Anyone with connections to the former Cambodian government or with foreign governments.

Professionals and intellectuals – in practice this included almost everyone with an education, people who understood a foreign language and even people who required glasses (which, according to the regime, meant that they spent too much time reading books instead of working). Ironically, Pol Pot himself was an educated man with a taste for French literature and spoke fluent French. Many artists, including musicians, writers, and filmmakers were executed. Some like Ros Serey Sothea, Pan Ron, and Sinn Sisamouth gained posthumous fame for their talents and are still popular with Khmers today.

Ethnic Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese, ethnic Thai, and other minorities in the Eastern Highlands, Cambodian Christians (most of whom were Catholic, and the Catholic Church in general), Muslims, and the Buddhist monks. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as forbidden (ḥarām). Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed.

"Economic saboteurs" – many former urban dwellers were deemed guilty of sabotage due to their lack of agricultural ability.

I don't see that as being any better than Hitler and the Nazis, and if anything it's worse.

[phonics]

Wrong continent for people to care about them. Same with Latin America.

What's going on in Brazil should be in the news every other day but you barely hear a peep about one of the worlds largest nations turning into a Banana Republic.

[phonics]

Can I just say the saga of the Tory copycat group of Momentum has been a stellar journey.

When they're not posting gold #social #media #content like this:
http://esquireuk.cdnds.net/17/35/1504088852-screen-shot-2017-08-30-at-112705.jpg

Their infighting amongst each other after banning a bunch of members for making fun of the poor leading to stuff like this
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJJxkmyWsAEFYuI.jpg

No wonder Theresa May would like to just ban the internet.

[Lewis]

The REAL COMMUNISM stuff seems to be based (other than people just kidding themselves) on the fact that the original omelette recipe fails to give explicit mention to breaking millions of eggs. A spectre is haunting Europe. The spectre of hunger. We're all peckish, so if we get some ham in, maybe some cheese... The capitalists are using their ovens for cakes, but people are sick of unhealthy cake, so as long as everybody likes omelette - and why wouldn't they? - we're good to go. Then a bunch of ineffectual fannies sat around in Paris and Berlin for years rowing over whether the cheese or the ham goes in first, and how much you need of each, until Vladimir Lenin came in with a box of eggs and said 'Lads...' That marks the point where it became perverted and wrong; but the intentions were good obviously mate.

Assuming you were a 'normal' person, it's hard to see how you would have been better off under any communist (as in societies influenced by Marxism and subsequent interpretations) society than the fascist (as in authoritarian nationalists) alternatives. Even Nazi Germany only really went apeshit with a war on, by which point the Soviet Union had already done about ten million people in. Italy, Spain, Portugal would all have been better bets, and if you chuck all of the Asian and Latin American strongmen in, which wouldn't be unfair, then for all the excesses you have roaring successes like Chile and South Korea (maybe even Singapore). The only communist countries that don't appear to have been absolute crap were Yugoslavia and East Germany, and in their case only because their residual Germanism meant that most things still worked properly.

It's because, as phonics said, the Second World War (although some ambiguity creeps in when you ask what the Soviet Union was doing for the first two years), and because there are enough idiots who give communist countries a pass because they were murdering millions of people for the right reasons.

[Pepe]

Aye, but I'm not sure gassing Jews and experimenting on the disabled are really central tenets of fascism

Curious to hear what you think are the 'central tenets' of fascism.

[Jimmy Floyd]

European history would have been infinitely better if someone had just torched Paris in about 1800.

[ItalAussie]

Does anyone really give credence to the "not real communism" thing? Aside from idiots on the internet, that is.

I'm a latte-sipping liberal lefty with the best of them, and I'm 100% behind the "we tried it, it sucked, it doesn't work" acknowledgement.

[Lewis]

Curious to hear what you think are the 'central tenets' of fascism.

The Robert Paxton and Stanley Payne definitions are the best ones (here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Robert_Paxton)), and the former has a checklist of 'mobilizing passions' (here (http://theleder.com/docs/Misc/Paxton_Five%20Stages%20of%20Fascism.pdf) [pp.6-7]) that, as an aside, makes the bedroom-dwelling wing of the Trump Train seem rather more fascistic than I had previously considered.

Failing that, just find some pinko pamphlets and replace all mentions of class/people with country/state.

[Pepe]

Wasn't asking you mate.

Still, if we go by 'central tenets,' it is hard to see how fascism is any more appealing than communism.

Throw me in the 'dunno, lol' section of that poll.

[Pepe]

I mostly have an issue with the idea that poor ol' fascism somehow gets the wrong end of the stick while communism gets all the good rep. Both words get misused by the other side to represent all that is bad.

[Lewis]

Does anyone really give credence to the "not real communism" thing? Aside from idiots on the internet, that is.

I'm a latte-sipping liberal lefty with the best of them, and I'm 100% behind the "we tried it, it sucked, it doesn't work" acknowledgement.

Speaking of which, I saw a great 'article' (https://medium.com/@discomfiting/debunking-communism-killed-more-people-than-naziism-7a9880696f67) recently on why the communist death toll is a myth:


If the allegation against communism is that it killed 100 million people, how many people did naziism kill? The Holocaust death toll is estimated to be between 17 million to 20 million people. That is about 1.5 million people killed each year from the year nazi Germany was born until it’s death— compared to communism’s alleged one million deaths. If naziism kept that pace of 1.5 million people killed each year, it would reach 150 million deaths in a century— compared to communism’s alleged 100 million. Comparing the alleged deaths of 100 years of communism to the death toll from 12 years of naziism is intellectually dishonest, you are comparing apples to oranges. When you realize that you are comparing 17 million deaths in 12 years versus 100 million deaths in 100 years, the claim that “communism killed more people than naziism” starts to become more visible as the nazi propaganda that it is.

'I have had more hot dinners than a five year old.'
'Hmm. Seems a bit intellectually dishonest. What if he lives to two-hundred and doesn't require any sleep?'

[phonics]

Does anyone really give credence to the "not real communism" thing? Aside from idiots on the internet, that is.

I was literally taught it in the same school Mert went to. But thinking about it, he did wear socks and sandals.

[Adramelch]

Does anyone really give credence to the "not real communism" thing? Aside from idiots on the internet, that is.

I'm a latte-sipping liberal lefty with the best of them, and I'm 100% behind the "we tried it, it sucked, it doesn't work" acknowledgement.

I think the argument is more of a "no social change succeeds in one try" nature, no? At least that's what I typically hear.

[niko_cee]

Wasn't asking you mate.

Still, if we go by 'central tenets,' it is hard to see how fascism is any more appealing than communism.


I quite like that Payne one, but I'd have probably said something less comprehensive/refined, and as to your second point, that's not really what I was getting at, more that one is seen as inherently evil, whilst the other inherently decent (if we could only do it properly!) and that this bias/attitude permeates a good deal of society, which I think is odd.

[Pepe]

A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

Does sound a bit 'inherently evil' don't you think?

[Pepe]

I think I might understand what you mean, in that there is an 'all right-wingers are bad ones' speech. But then there is also an 'all left-wingers are stupid' speech, so it all evens out.

[niko_cee]

Only if being evil and being stupid are equivalent, which I'm not sure they are.

[Pepe]

They're not, but they are stupid generalizations done by stupid people based on dodgy team allegiances.

I might have to brush up on my Communism 101, but does any of the 'central tenets' sound as 'inherently evil' as that definition of fascism?

[Lewis]

In the Communist Manifesto no, but when Lenin sought to 'organise violence in the interests of the people' simply to make it work you can see how it all unfolded as it did.

[Pepe]

For sure, but then one can separate the ideology from the application, which is what justifies the different treatment they get, even if historically they were both a bit shit.

See Ital's post up there. It's fair to say 'it doesn't work' but then I think it's also fair to say that fascism is a bit evil.

We'll get it right next time. ;)

[Lewis]

Not really. If you just went off what was written down then fascist doctrine is also much milder than what came about. The Doctrine of Fascism (half written by Benito Mussolini) is hardly extreme; what Oswald Mosley imagined for a fascist Britain just reads like a modern 'progressive' programme (mind you, that was before he started indulging anti-Semitism; but even then it was not really violent); and even all of Adolf Hitler's balls, whilst obviously openly anti-Semitic, contains nothing to suggest that they were going to set about doing them all in.

Other than the nature of the collective, does the Paxton definition - which is based on what happened rather than what little written doctrine existed - you quoted actually sound any different from communism (as realised)? If anything the 'uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites' necessitates that it is inherently less violent.

[Pepe]

Not really. If you just went off what was written down then fascist doctrine is also much milder than what came about. The Doctrine of Fascism (half written by Benito Mussolini) is hardly extreme; what Oswald Mosley imagined for a fascist Britain just reads like a modern 'progressive' programme (mind you, that was before he started indulging anti-Semitism; but even then it was not really violent); and even all of Adolf Hitler's balls, whilst obviously openly anti-Semitic, contains nothing to suggest that they were going to set about doing them all in.

That's why I asked, because I don't really know what the good fascists are supposed to stand for.


Other than the nature of the collective, does the Paxton definition - which is based on what happened rather than what little written doctrine existed - you quoted actually sound any different from communism (as realised)? If anything the 'uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites' necessitates that it is inherently less violent.

Not really.

[Lewis]

What, you mean the fascist equivalent of somebody who believes in Marxism in its pure (and impossible) form? I suppose they would just be into benevolent dictatorship and everybody putting the country first. Mosley's The Greater Britain was a bit like that. It isn't necessarily repressive and violent in theory, but it would obviously have to be in reality.

[GS]

It isn't necessarily repressive and violent in theory, but it would obviously have to be in reality.

Like socialism, then.

[Pepe]

Or capitalism.

[GS]

I don't see a Gestapo-like organisation rounding up dissenters for imprisonment and execution.

[Pepe]

What, you mean the fascist equivalent of somebody who believes in Marxism in its pure (and impossible) form?

Yes.


I suppose they would just be into benevolent dictatorship and everybody putting the country first. Mosley's The Greater Britain was a bit like that. It isn't necessarily repressive and violent in theory, but it would obviously have to be in reality.

Everything seems to fail when a dictator is needed in charge.

[Lewis]

Well, yeah. There is probably something in there being less theoretical stuff around (by the important people then, and by people going on now) to cling to. If there was a fascist equivalent of the Communist Manifesto that just went 1) globalists ruining it mate; 2) everyone becoming patriots; 3) .....; 4) profit then maybe everyone could just come back to that and say Mussolini and Hitler weren't real fascists.

[Pepe]

Lots of campaigns run on that, so I reckon you're right.

You should get on it.

[Lewis]

When 'The Donald' implodes people can say it wasn't real Bannonism.

[GS]

Martin Lewis is continuing to fight the good fight on tuition fees, this time with regards to the supposedly high interest rates. It's been met by a wall of idiots who don't understand mathematics.

[Yevrah]

Is this Twitter again?

[GS]

It is. He means well too, given he doesn't want thick people making thick decisions based on misinformed bollocks but there surely comes a point where you just have to leave them to it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Deadly Dom is back and firing twitter darts at all comers. It's both surprising and not at all surprising that no one listens to him, given the magnitude of his influence on the referendum.

[Lewis]

I wonder what he normally does all day.

[GS]

He's baiting Continuity Remain now, too.

[Lewis]

lol at that. Speaking of polls, the consistency of them is pretty interesting. Both parties are locked on 41/42 each, and have been for months. Normally the government would be shitting support right about now, so I am pretty convinced by 'Peak Corbyn'.

[GS]

Vince is doubling down here. They're in serious bother.

[GS]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4518860/theresa-may-eu-brexit-deal

This all appears to be perfectly sensible and reasonable, so we can expect howls of outrage from Brussels and Enemy Within types.

[Lewis]

911693129522302976

The Dream Team.

[GS]

Her majority is 346, so we'd be faced with the unwelcome prospect of an entire campaign narrative built around the Prime Minister desperately trying to save their own seat. What joys.

[Jimmy Floyd]

911693129522302976

The Dream Team.

They would literally all be better PMs than her.

[Yevrah]

Why can't Tim Shipman string a gramatically correct sentence together?

[niko_cee]

Is that Major as in John?

[GS]

Presumably so. He probably hasn't recovered from Maastricht, the massive twat.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why can't Tim Shipman string a gramatically correct sentence together?

His Brexit book is genuinely brilliant.

[GS]

Clive Lewis subscribing to the David Lammy school of talking complete shite. How the fuck do these people get elected?

911893301820760064

[Lewis]

By his own logic he is racist against non-Europeans.

[GS]

"Logic."

These people are genuine lunatics.

[Lewis]

I like how your bird tries to intervene, gets ignored, so then just sits grimacing for the rest of it. What a perfect metaphor for where most of the party are.

[GS]

Lisa Nandy would probably be the next leader if she wasn't northern.

[Lewis]

She would have been a good bet for the future in 2015 (by which I mean likely to win, rather than actually good), but it's communist idiots all the way now. Rebecca Long-Bailey (Northern) was the Chosen One last time the question came up, but that was on the assumption that they needed Corbynism with a human face. Now they are flush with success they will revert to the natural line of succession as first sketched out in 1986.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Corbyn is Corbynism with a human face, which is literally the only reason he gets away with it, even though he's a fucking weirdo.

[Lewis]

But what about Saudi Arabia?

[Kikó]

The corbyn rallies are bizarre. Not sure how we've got to the situation where most people are fucking idiots.

[GS]

Because people have voted for him without understanding what he would actually do if he won. There's really no excuse.

[McAvennie]

Because people have voted for him without understanding what he would actually do if he won. There's really no excuse.

A bit like everyone who voted for Brexit then?

[niko_cee]

In that they didn't understand the referendum was non-binding and wouldn't be implemented in any meaningful way?

[GS]

A bit like everyone who voted for Brexit then?

And a bit like most who voted for Remain, too. If even a fifth of the electorate grasped the majority of the issues beyond Racism v CONTROL, I'd be surprised.

[Shindig]

"Hey, if you vote to remain in that union we've been in for years, you don't know what you're in for."

Aye. Alright. Sure.

[GS]

Shindig proving the point splendidly here by not understanding that a vote to stay in would have been HIJACKED to justify every subsequent reform and transfer of power as ever-closer union became a reality. All shoved through by the government of the day irrespective of party.

There was no 'static' option.

[niko_cee]

Look, mate, it's HARD brexit, the cliff edge, all worship at the great altar of the single market, alright?

[GS]

Fuck that. The buzzword of the year is "scrutiny". We should all be thrilled that this bunch of wet bastards have decided that scrutiny now matters, but they didn't even pretend to give a fuck when our benevolent European overlords were shovelling shite onto the statute book on our behalf.

[McAvennie]

And a bit like most who voted for Remain, too. If even a fifth of the electorate grasped the majority of the issues beyond Racism v CONTROL, I'd be surprised.

Interesting, I wonder what proportion of the electorate understands just about any political issue?

[Lewis]

The numbers on leave/remain being almost completely static since last June is lol beyond words. All that bed wetting and non-stop SEETHING, millions more words written about it, petrol going up, the clear fact that nobody in charge knows what they're doing... All that, and nobody cares. It does make you wonder how the second referendum whoppers would approach a re-match.

'I know what I said then, but this time...'

Jezza could probably come out for leave as well now he isn't terrified of his party.

[GS]

Momentum have managed to mobilise their gang of upper-middle-class guilt merchants into voting for "safe space" topics like Grenfell and austerity, which means they're somehow managing not to have a debate on Brexit during the entire conference. The usual drones are up in arms, and Chuka Umunna appears close to tears.

It's world class trolling, you've got to concede that much.

[Lewis]

Interesting, I wonder what proportion of the electorate understands just about any political issue?

This (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41349409) thing on the internet and the election contains the following:


In our surveys, we tested people's political knowledge by asking if eight randomly selected statements were true or false and then counted the number of correct answers. The statements included assertions like: "The minimum voting age for UK general elections is now 16 years of age," and "The chancellor of the Exchequer is responsible for setting interest rates in the UK." Though internet usage and political knowledge are only slightly linked, it is clear that, after rigorous statistical tests, how knowledgeable people are about politics had significant effects on how they voted.

Put simply, political knowledge continues to have a strong effect on Labour and Conservative voting even after we take statistical account of all of "the usual suspects" that are used to explain voting - such as social class, age, gender income, people's "left-right" placement and how they voted in the 2016 referendum.

https://s26.postimg.org/ram1veu7d/DKc_E-_ZEWs_AE6v7e.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

:harold:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Tories have a serious branding issue now though.

[Lewis]

Hopefully this kicks off a load of America-style 'conservative/liberals are more intelligent because...' think pieces.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Labour conference sounds like the lunatics have finally taken over the asylum.


Labour delegate Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi speaks up for the rights of Palestinians.

"Comrades, I am not an anti-Semite," the Jewish party member says.

Delegates give her a standing ovation when she declares: "This party does not have a problem with Jews."

Well that's that settled then.

[GS]

This (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41349409) thing on the internet and the election contains the following:

https://s26.postimg.org/ram1veu7d/DKc_E-_ZEWs_AE6v7e.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

:harold:

There's the old adage that a man at 20 who isn't a socialist lacks a heart, but if he's still one at 30 he lacks a head. That's pretty much what you'd expect. One of the issues is that SOCIAL MEDIA has condensed everything down into 140 characters and memes - so try explaining the benefits of a corporation tax cut in 140 characters compared to "THEY'RE PRIVATISING THE NHS!" You haven't a hope.


Tories have a serious branding issue now though.

It's only a branding issue insofar that the likes of that Momentum mob are happy to misrepresent policy to make it look like the Fourth Reich is just around the corner. They obviously haven't helped themselves with some of the shit policies (e.g. dementia tax), but short of having these people imprisoned for libel, sedition (or treason, if they adhere to Wor Jez's IRA views) then I don't see what they can realistically do to stop the tide of shit originating with Momentum and their lunatic fringe groups.

[Pepe]

try explaining the benefits of a corporation tax cut in 140 characters

You spend your life trying and still fail miserably.

[Pepe]

https://i.giphy.com/media/kYsBThMhhalLG/giphy.webp

[Pepe]

Donned.

[Lewis]

There is only a 'branding problem' with young people and twats. The former are a write-off, but - bearing in mind that the next election will be about making Brexit work (or something like that) rather than still pissing the bed about it - winning enough of the latter back round strikes me as an easier task than convincing twice the amount of normal people and pensioners to vote for Team Jezza.

[Magic]

Who gives a toss about BREXIT MANIFESTOS and stuff when you've got a motto like 'FOR THE MANY, NOT THE FEW'. I'll be voting for that shit. :drool:

[Lewis]

For the Muslim, Not the Jew.

[GS]

You spend your life trying and still fail miserably.

On that subject, one need only look at Henry as a good example of someone who feels very strongly on a topic without actually understanding what's going on. When you're accused of "changing the topic" when you cite the difference between on-shore and off-shore revenues, it's clear that they don't have sufficient grounding to discuss the issue properly. This is the issue generally.


There is only a 'branding problem' with young people and twats. The former are a write-off, but - bearing in mind that the next election will be about making Brexit work (or something like that) rather than still pissing the bed about it - winning enough of the latter back round strikes me as an easier task than convincing twice the amount of normal people and pensioners to vote for Team Jezza.

There is zero point in the Tories targeting young people. They'll fall in behind FOR THE MANY and TAX THE RICH irrespective of how many times you could explain the actual policy to them. The Tories can't out-Jezza Jezza, and no sensible government or government-in-waiting should be advocating nonsense like free tuition. There's no point trying.

They need to go after the 25-45 age range, which is where they managed to shaft themselves this time around.

[niko_cee]

:uhoh:

[Pepe]

it's clear that they don't have sufficient grounding to discuss the issue properly. This is the issue generally.

True, but you make it sound as if it is an issue of only one side of the political spectrum. Truth is, very few people have a good grasp of THE ISSUES (I sure as hell talk out of my arse most of the time) since it is a bit hard to be an expert at everything. Politicians in particular are every bit as guilty of it as anyone else. Politics is their career and their job is to get elected. They could't give a rat's arse about 'the issues.'

[GS]

True, but you make it sound as if it is an issue of only one side of the political spectrum. Truth is, very few people have a good grasp of THE ISSUES (I sure as hell talk out of my arse most of the time) since it is a bit hard to be an expert at everything. Politicians in particular are every bit as guilty of it as anyone else. Politics is their career and their job is to get elected. They could't give a rat's arse about 'the issues.'

I don't disagree, you know. Plenty of experts are wrong constantly, as well. The pre-Brexit meltdown that many economists had should have seen the entire profession discredited.

[Boydy]

I don't disagree, you know. Plenty of experts are wrong constantly, as well. The pre-Brexit meltdown that many economists had should have seen the entire profession discredited.

Still love those laffer curves though, don't you?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Laffer the Gaffer.

[GS]

Still love those laffer curves though, don't you?

From the visceral supporter of Jezonomics, this is quite the intervention.

[John]

I've previously only read Angela Rayner transcribed by what must have been incredibly sympathetic journalists, but I've just heard her speak for the first time and she sounds fucking dense.

'We need to be skilling up our young people, not putting barriers in their place.'

Not really a justification for this absurd 'cradle to grave' education system she's proposing.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

I saw someone on Twitter talking about her as next Labour leader.

[Lewis]

Was it her who said a working class person could never be Prime Minister? Half of all Labour Prime Ministers managed it, love, and there wasn't even tokenism in them days.

[John Arne]

Labour want to ban someone from the party for suggesting that people should be allowed to discuss whether the holocaust happened... not for denying that it happened... simply for suggesting that people should be allowed to discuss it.



Speaking at an event on free speech and Israel, Peled is reported to have said: “This is about free speech, the freedom to criticise and to discuss every issue, whether it’s the Holocaust: yes or no, Palestine, the liberation, the whole spectrum. There should be no limits on the discussion.”

It’s about the limits of tolerance: we don’t invite the Nazis and give them an hour to explain why they are right; we do not invite apartheid South Africa racists to explain why apartheid was good for the blacks, and in the same way we do not invite Zionists – it’s a very similar kind of thing.”


Why on earth would you be criticised, let alone expelled, for saying that? Is it me or are the ANTI-SEMITE!!!! brigade always a little too quick out of the blocks on this?

Let the idiots deny it... laugh in their face... then move on.

[Lewis]

912333620370640897

:|

[Pepe]

Vim.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKzmPZbW4AA_oym.jpg:large

Probably should go instead of sending Amber Rudd next time then.

She also said The Conservative Party wasn't ready for a snap election... errr

[Shindig]

912333620370640897

:|

Christ. Almost expected her to announce she was trans.

[GS]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKzmPZbW4AA_oym.jpg:large

Probably should go instead of sending Amber Rudd next time then.

She also said The Conservative Party wasn't ready for a snap election... errr

Resisting this sort of bollocks American import is one of the few things she did right. They're fucking awful. Why should the Prime Minister be getting equal billing with Leanne Wood, exactly?

[Pepe]

Who are you, anyway?

[GS]

911693129522302976

The Dream Team.

Six percent.

913519081147518982

[Shindig]

Surprised the exit lot have faith in Boris given how sheepish he looked when the vote came in.

[Lewis]

There is a massive pile of Stephen Crabb merchandise biding its time somewhere. Possibly next to an even larger pile of Dan Jarvis merchandise.

[Pepe]

Corbynmania has reached the US.

https://www.thenation.com/article/this-is-what-a-socialist-looks-like/


During the campaign, it was Corbyn who came across as principled, compassionate, and—on the crucial question of Britain’s relations with the European Union—pragmatic, while May and her party increasingly appeared to be in the grip of an ideological obsession compounded of xenophobic fear and chauvinist economic fantasy.

I know who I am voting for.

[GS]

Surprised the exit lot have faith in Boris given how sheepish he looked when the vote came in.

I'm sure Jimmy will be able to confirm this having read the Shipman book, but I believe that Boris and Gove were "jubilant" when they arrived at Leave HQ on the morning. They were, however, aware that Cameron was resigning and didn't want to look like they were celebrating it by the time they were addressing the media. This has given rise to Continuity Remain's conspiracy theory / line of attack that they "realised what they had done", as if they'd just committed a murder in a fit of passion and were staring aghast at the body. Complete horseshit, as these things invariably are. Still, they only have currency because people keep repeating it without questioning its veracity.

Boris would do because he'd see the thing through without giving in to Spreadsheet Phil and his gang of civil service guerrillas. That or Jacob Rees-Mogg. Three of the top four there are Leavers, and the other is basically ineligible so when May goes you're going to have a Leaver storming through on the back of a campaign of telling the Commission to go and fuck themselves and evicting foreigners.

[Lewis]

Toby Davidson would be the best person if she wasn't too busy saving the Union, so just give it to some ethnic/queer and watch Labour shit the communal bed when they start giving it to the old white tosser.

[GS]

Davidson's current role as "Hammer of the Nats" needs to be seen through. It's not practical that she could run anyway, so I don't know why they're bothering to include her in the polling.

[Shindig]

I'm sure Jimmy will be able to confirm this having read the Shipman book, but I believe that Boris and Gove were "jubilant" when they arrived at Leave HQ on the morning. They were, however, aware that Cameron was resigning and didn't want to look like they were celebrating it by the time they were addressing the media. This has given rise to Continuity Remain's conspiracy theory / line of attack that they "realised what they had done", as if they'd just committed a murder in a fit of passion and were staring aghast at the body. Complete horseshit, as these things invariably are. Still, they only have currency because people keep repeating it without questioning its veracity.

Boris would do because he'd see the thing through without giving in to Spreadsheet Phil and his gang of civil service guerrillas. That or Jacob Rees-Mogg. Three of the top four there are Leavers, and the other is basically ineligible so when May goes you're going to have a Leaver storming through on the back of a campaign of telling the Commission to go and fuck themselves and evicting foreigners.

Fair enough. I didn't give the resignation a second though. To be honest, he's the best personality they've got. My big problem with May is you forget she's there.

[McAvennie]

Resisting this sort of bollocks American import is one of the few things she did right. They're fucking awful. Why should the Prime Minister be getting equal billing with Leanne Wood, exactly?

Equal billing? It's not an evening of light jazz.

Having a couple of hours of actual debate between the parties would however be desirable over the slanging match that these things descend into, with the "who
won the debate" bollocks.

As for May not going, I think she'd have done better to say "actually I'm a bit crap at this kind of thing so I'll send Amber Rudd", rather than further exposing her as the out of touch elitist.

[John]

Theresa May coined the word 'guaransure' this morning.

[Lewis]

https://s26.postimg.org/pzgvezqax/DK4_HSURW0_AEWFP6.jpg

Who are the thirty-five per cent of cranks who want to nationalise the food supply, and who are the eight per cent that want to do that but think airlines are a step too far?

[phonics]

Nationalising travel agents is... weird?

[Lewis]

There is obviously a constant twenty per cent of nutters who want the government to run everything, but the actual takeaway from that - for all the right-wingers (and pretend right-wingers) freaking out on Twitter - is that the sectors subject to actual market forces are much more popular than shitty over-regulated rackets like gas and trains.

[GS]

I doubt 35% of people would want to nationalise the food supply if they understood what nationalisation actually entailed. It's probably an erroneous poll finding unless you explain the consequences of it; that being, that there would only be one shop to go to, you'd have to queue for five hours, and there would be nothing left worth buying by the time you got in.

[GS]

914231100452597761

I'm coming round to the idea that they should oust her and install Boris without a leadership contest. This sort of thing is such a waste of time.

[phonics]

You have to love when the Conservatives have the knife out for each other. It's much better copy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLARyIIWsAAGZOy.jpg:large

[Lewis]

https://s1.postimg.org/3ysq9yxi9b/DLIk3_E4_Ws_AEO_i_H.jpg

lol

[Jimmy Floyd]

Rees-Mogg is a don. The recent cultism around him is bollocks, but he is a don.

[randomlegend]

He's quite funny but I really find it hard to respect anyone who wants to deny women abortions when they've been raped.

[GS]

His position is entirely consistent with his Catholicism. At least he's not equivocating because it might appeal to divs.

[phonics]

So would be being pro molesting children but I'm not sure it's a position to take.

[randomlegend]

Oh right, it's religion so it's OK.

There's a difference believing something yourself and wanting to impose those beliefs and their consequences onto others who don't believe the same as you.

I believe people who are raped and want an abortion should be able to have it. I do not believe in forcing a Catholic to have an abortion because they got pregnant by rape, even if my personal opinion is that it would likely be best for all involved.

You can't argue that you want freedom to express your (religious) beliefs in one breath, and then try to impose those beliefs on others (and in doing so prevent them from acting in concordance with their own beliefs) in the next. Well I mean you can, but it makes you a massive cunt.

[Henry]

If his religion causes him to spout bollocks, then he should be sneered at as he would be if it was for any other reason. It's no excuse whatsoever. We don't live in the 16th century.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think GS is saying, in his own special way, that at least he's honest about his real opinions, and not putting across fake views in order to win popularity. That's a separate question as to whether we all agree with various items on his opinions shopping list.

[randomlegend]

I think GS is saying, in his own special way, that at least he's honest about his real opinions, and not putting across fake views in order to win popularity. That's a separate question as to whether we all agree with various items on his opinions shopping list.

And it's fine for it to be his personal belief that it's wrong and if he ever gets raped and falls pregnant then I'd be the first defending his right not to have an abortion.

I just disagree with trying to impose your personal beliefs on others in a way which limits their freedom to act according to their own (within certain obvious boundaries).

[Jimmy Floyd]

Is he imposing them on anyone? I suppose you could argue that by being a professional politician and entering a legislative body he is, but that line of reasoning would severely limit the pool of people from whom to choose.

[phonics]

Is he imposing them on anyone? I suppose you could argue that by being a professional politician and entering a legislative body he is, but that line of reasoning would severely limit the pool of people from whom to choose.

The pool should be small and anyone who actually wants to be part of the pool as a career should be automatically refused.

[Lewis]

He merely wants to tell people what to do in the name of some 'Greater Good'. He just has different priorities from the people who want to deny fat people medical treatment or confiscate children from smokers on account of him being a bigot.

[John]

Abortion is one of the few issues where the 'imposing your opinion on others' thing is muddied. If you sincerely believe that life begins at conception then you'd have to be a fucking sociopath to not want abortions outlawed.

[Henry]

If I stood on the street corner raving about gays and abortion and there being too many blacks, I'm presumably being honest about my views but that would be a strange thing to focus on.

[GS]

JRM's position is entirely consistent with the teachings of the Catholic church:


2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

Sources:
Cf. CDF, Donum vitae I, 1.
Jer 1:5; cf. ⇒ Job 10:8-12; ⇒ Ps 22:10-11.
Ps 139:15.
Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19, 5: PG 2, 777; Ad
Diognetum 5, 6: PG 2, 1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9: PL 1, 319-320.
GS 51 # 3.

Regrettably, "RL" has completely misrepresented the issue. Issues on moral questions are put to free votes in the Commons. There is no prospect of a change in the law, because it would never pass the Commons. Even if he was PM, it would be impossible for him to whip the party to vote for a particular view. He wouldn't either, because precedent dictates that these votes are not party political issues. Ergo, he can believe abortion is a sin in all circumstances without there being any prospect of his doing anything to prevent people accessing it. It's not a legal question for JRM - it's a moral one. The legal position is separate. It's also settled, in this country at least, and won't be changing. It's a non-issue, and it's just another excuse for people to engage in faux outrage.

[randomlegend]

JRM's position is entirely consistent with the teachings of the Catholic church:

Nobody cares.

[GS]

Your ignorance isn't something to celebrate, you know.

[phonics]

Nobody had noticed the Catholic church was anti-abortion before you'd illuminated us.

[GS]

Yes, and "RL" wouldn't have went off on his hissy fit if he'd understood the issue properly. "Forcing people!" indeed.

[randomlegend]

Yeah mate, I'm the one having a hissy fit.

Keep showing me who's boss by putting my name in quotation marks.

[phonics]

Theresa Mays speech involved getting Lee Mason'd, having a coughing fit and then the stage started falling apart.

Also saying you're all about a free market and then your three main announcements are price cap/freezes. Lol. These people didn't vote for Ed Miliband so why her people think they'll vote Conservative if she pretends to be him is weird.

[Lewis]

You have to wonder whether these people even understand capitalism, let alone support it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

She'll get great play out of this, as Jeremy Corbyn heads unimpinged for the Sheffield Rally (or even the Nuremberg Rally) and she has gone so shit that she now occupies all the underdog territory formerly enjoyed by him.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You have to wonder whether these people even understand capitalism, let alone support it.

Philip Hammond, demand side Moses.

[phonics]

https://im3.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-3-b3a897d942.gif

This is how it's ended

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLSxgMaXUAACoy1.jpg:large

The imagery of there being a whacking great gap in the middle of it is bellissimo.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Could have been so much worse though, 'country' is playing with fire just for standing in front of the O, never mind letters falling off.

'Building a cunt that works for Ron' would have been good.

[Disco]

I mean it could be worse.

https://i.imgur.com/AduiPP6.png