UK General Election 2017 - 8 June

[Pepe]

I find the 'anti-semitism' crew very boring, but I am very ignorant in those matters. A friend of mine teaches classes on anti-semitism and is chimping out because a course called Nazi Culture in her own department (German) has more students than hers. :lol:

[Magic]

It's not to make light of anti-semitism, but it does seem a bit like they're specifically targeting Corbyn and the Labour party.

It's almost like they as a community stand to pay a bit more in tax and may find it harder to hide their wealth under a Labour government dead set on ending austerity and tax avoidance. But I'm sure that's nothing to do with it.

:henn0rz:

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Tories would definitely be on safer ground with this if they had literally any other leader, although, that being said, Twitter seems to have 75% of the population as a PROVEN RACIST these days.

[Yevrah]

It's ridiculous. The entire agenda of "Is Corbyn a secret racist?" is laughable when you look at Boris' track record. He's got a proven history of speaking and writing sexist, homophobic and racist views. Yet Corbyn get's crucified by the media for apparently "not doing enough" to prevent racism.

You can see by the way he answers questions and the responses he gives that he's not done/doing enough. He even said last night that he's had to tighten up the process over the last few months.

Boris being a racist twat doesn't change this.

[Magic]

So he's taking steps to ensuring it isn't tolerated? How dare he!

[Yevrah]

So he's taking steps to ensuring it isn't tolerated? How dare he!

He's not actually doing anything as far as I can see.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Corbyn is an anti-semite in the same way Boris is a racist. Neither want anyone lynched, but they both hold unhealthy prejudices that seep out from time to time

[Boydy]

Corbyn is an anti-semite in the same way Boris is a racist. Neither want anyone lynched, but they both hold unhealthy prejudices that seep out from time to time

This is complete horseshit.

[Henry]

Hello.

Jeremy Corbyn is probably the least racist person in the world, and one of the more prominent anti-racist campaigners of the last several decades. That this shit can be made to stick is a fucking shambles.

It'll be interesting to see how the BBC (rapidly also becoming a disgrace) get themselves out of having lied to Labour about Johnson having also agreed an interview with Andrew Neil, which apparently he hadn't and won't.

And yes, it's the policies that count (or should count) not the charisma or other personality bullshit. Corbyn could be a one-eyed mute and it would still be right to vote for this Labour manifesto.

[Lewis]

I'm one of the least prominent anti-racist campaigners of the last several decades, and yet the amount of anti-Semites/anti-Semitism that I've felt the need to defend is less than that of the most prominent. Weird.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

It’s an answer you’d get from any politician trying to dodge the question.

Which makes it look like he’s fine with all that jazz.

Even if he is, just lie for fuck’s sake.

Even if you concede Corbyn himself is not an anti-Semite, the question that needs answered is why are many anti-Semites attracted to a Corbyn led Labour party.

[Henry]

Even if you concede Corbyn himself is not an anti-Semite, the question that needs answered is why are many anti-Semites attracted to a Corbyn led Labour party.

I'm sure you have data showing that there are "many" such people. So much of this shit is being taken at face value, and most of it either the tired canard of classing criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism, or trumped up bullshit. Like when Chris Williamson was kicked out merely for suggesting that there wasn't much of an issue.

[Lewis]

He's an ocean-going retard whose definition of anti-Semitism is a very narrow one of right-wingers attacking Jews as a minority group. If somebody smashed up a synagogue he would be right on it because he would see a vulnerable community under siege. All of the other stuff about British Jews having dual loyalty to Israel or Jews controlling world finance and governments is merely part of the debate. After all, banks do control governments, and a lot of bankers are Jewish, so... Hence that wanky 'it's an anti-Semitic trope' defence last night. He accepts that claiming one particular Jewish family controls the world could be anti-Semitic, but the author might have gone on to make some good points about inequality and Israeli settlements so you really need to see it in context.

[Baz]

You don't vote for prime ministers. I *can* vote Corbyn as he's my constituency.

In which case, Marie “Shinkicker” Rimmer is an even worse choice.

Greens it is.

[mugbull]

Israel is a 51st state of America by proxy and it’s specifically because plenty of American Jews have split allegiances. It’s not like there’s some underground cabal of bankers secretly siphoning money, it’s out in the open completely. It’s similar if less extreme in the UK. Realistically, you would want to be able to discuss whether such ties are problematic in normal public discourse, but you can’t because Conservative parties the world over (as well as Dem establishment in the US) have been able to convince the average person that such talk is racism, tantamount somehow to whatever stupid cunts like Boris and Trump say about other minority groups who aren’t protected by the strongest, most unified special interest bloc in modern politics.

[Lewis]

Would you say 'Rothchild Zionists run Israel and world governments' is closer to your points or to outright racism?

[7om]

Hello.

Jeremy Corbyn is probably the least racist person in the world.

I hope you’ve got data to back that up. We don’t want any of that “at face value” wank.

[Shindig]

It doesn't matter how racist he is. The fact is, he's not apologising for alleged racism happening on his watch. It's the kind of thing it should be easy to apologise for, too. He's putting his foot down in the worst way.

[mugbull]

Would you say 'Rothchild Zionists run Israel and world governments' is closer to your points or to outright racism?

That's a conspiracy theory for simple people. Nobody runs the world.

[Boydy]

The Tories are already plotting the sell-off of the NHS in a post-brexit US trade deal and Boris Johnson is pulling out of doing an interview with Andrew Neil.

[Lewis]

Didn't David Cameron already privatise it all?

[Yevrah]

Big poll news:


The Conservatives will win the general election with a majority of 68 seats, according to a YouGov poll.

Were the election held tomorrow, YouGov projects the Tories would win 359 seats - 42 more than they took in 2017.

Labour is on track to lose 51 MPs by securing 211 seats, the poll suggests.

The poll suggests that the Conservatives would pick up seats from the Labour heartlands of the Midlands and the North.

YouGov's MRP model was hotly anticipated because it is the method that first accurately projected a hung parliament in 2017.

Remember, there are caveats to this and any prediction should be treated with caution.

The difference between this model and ordinary polling is that it applies national trends to constituencies, using demographics and previous results. This means it's more specific than national polling but will miss any truly local issues.

And like other polls, the data can change between now and the election.

[Magic]

I think Scotland will be a mix of SNP and Tory again
What a hole.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This is complete horseshit.

Nope, you and others just want it to be because he's left wing and you want him to win. It's just like football club tribal wank arguments.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Also Cummings has just put another mental blog up, jesus christ the man has some front.

[Baz]

Big poll news:
How does this work (using national trends and previous results) when the Brexit Party didn’t even exist until about six months ago? :cab:

[Spikey M]

They are using the results of recent national polls presumably. Plus, the Brexit Party aren't running in any Tory seats.

The Brexit Party will probably just inherit the UKIP votes anyway. They won't get a seat.

[Henry]

All of the other stuff about British Jews having dual loyalty to Israel or Jews controlling world finance and governments is merely part of the debate.


There are vanishingly few in the Labour party who go on about that stuff. Again, unless you twist it to say that not wanting bombs dropped on children in Gaza is anti-Semitic.

Corbyn's error has been not to call this out for what it is, and to try to placate those pushing the narrative. Like refusing to challenge that head rabbi dickhead, who has form on this.

[Lewis]

The vanishing few are weirdly over-represented in official and semi-official positions though, which is what makes it unusual, and he nonces around the issue because he's a moral and intellectual idiot.

[Henry]

The vanishing few are weirdly over-represented in official and semi-official positions though

Name them.

[Lewis]

I can't because there aren't any.

[Henry]

I can't because there aren't any.

What?

Meanwhile, your PM has a long history of being an actual racist himself, and isn't getting half the grief about it.

[Lewis]

As Floyd said, it seems quite comparable from the they're both shit side of the fence. The constant referrals to the piccaninnies stuff and the Muslim women looking like letterboxes is all harmless in its actual context, but then you have things like today's chimp out(!) about him once saying that Nigerians are obsessed with money. Is that more or less racist than saying that British 'Zionists' haven't adapted to English irony? More than likely they're just soft-peddled idiocy, although I reckon Johnson would at least have the good sense not to sit on the telly and nitpick over racism vs 'racist tropes' for fear of looking like a cretin.

[Yevrah]

Henry dismissing the Chief Rabbi's accusations of antisemitism for "having form" has to be the highlight so far.

I don't think I've ever seen him do that about any other minority leader's opinion on the back of a racism discussion in twenty years of posting here.

[phonics]

Henry dismissing the Chief Rabbi's accusations of antisemitism for "having form" has to be the highlight so far.

I don't think I've ever seen him do that about any other minority leader's opinion on the back of a racism discussion in twenty years of posting here.

I think Henry's referring to his lack of neutrality on politics. Specifically on policies that Corbyn has advocated against.

[edited out]

edit: lol I copy/pasted that from Wikipedia and actually I think I've just copied some propaganda. Deleting it now.

[Lewis]

An un-sourced line like 'As Chief Rabbi of Ireland and before the opening of an Israeli Embassy in Ireland, he represented Israel’s interests at government level and in the media' is a bit suspect.

[phonics]

An un-sourced line like 'As Chief Rabbi of Ireland and before the opening of an Israeli Embassy in Ireland, he represented Israel’s interests at government level and in the media' is a bit suspect.

Would like to note that I noticed this and deleted it before seeing this for exactly that reason.

[Yevrah]

Honestly, this is how it starts gents. If Corbyn were ever to get into power Henry would be along citing the greater good.

[Yevrah]

I can vouch for that Phonics.

[phonics]

Honestly, this is how it starts gents. If Corbyn were ever to get into power Henry would be along citing the greater good.

I mean it already has started for black people and muslims in this country so I'm not sure what the implication is here. Jews wouldn't be persecuted under a Corbyn government in some special way.

On the other hand you have had a large insurgent underground movement based on hatred of ethnic minorities. They're not suddenly voting labour because they think there's a anti-semite in the office, unlike Donald Trump that has had a huge swathe of these non-voting nazis matter to him.

(i've edited this several times to be more accurate, please refresh before replying)

[Lewis]

It's all Muslims and pinko cranks who would vote Labour regardless.

[phonics]

Yeah, I'm sure the bloke who drove a van into Finsbury Mosque is a big Labour voter.

edit: lol I just looked him up and he's Welsh so he probably was.

[phonics]

This is a very funny paragraph in the article though.


Several far right groups are active in south Wales. They include the South Wales National Front. Its leader, Adam Lloyd, denied any connection to the attacker. “The man in question is not known to any of us here in South Wales National Front, and to our knowledge is not and never has been a member,” he said. “Although we will never condone or accept this kind of violent attacks here in SWNF, anyone with a right mind can see this is not a terrorist attack but a revenge attack.”

[Lewis]

I thought you meant the anti-Semites buzzing around the Labour Party.

[phonics]

No the lefts very specific issue with Jews is a seperate issue.

[Spikey M]

Henry jumping the red shark is nice.

[Yevrah]

I mean it already has started for black people and muslims in this country so I'm not sure what the implication is here. Jews wouldn't be persecuted under a Corbyn government in some special way.

On the other hand you have had a large insurgent underground movement based on hatred of ethnic minorities. They're not suddenly voting labour because they think there's a anti-semite in the office, unlike Donald Trump that has had a huge swathe of these non-voting nazis matter to him.

(i've edited this several times to be more accurate, please refresh before replying)

To clarify, I didn't mean how the holocaust starts again, more that Henry's staunch belief that Corbyn is beyond reproach means he gets a free pass on so many issues he otherwise wouldn't and I genuinely believe that even if he was doing some damaging shit to the country Henners wouldn't ever see it that way.

[Magic]

To clarify, I didn't mean how the holocaust starts again, more that Henry's staunch belief that Corbyn is beyond reproach means he gets a free pass on so many issues he otherwise wouldn't and I genuinely believe that even if he was doing some damaging shit to the country Henners wouldn't ever see it that way.

Do you have the same concerns with those who are about to vote the Tories in again? Except that's not a hypothetical situation based on nothing.

[Yevrah]

Do you have the same concerns with those who are about to vote the Tories in again? Except that's not a hypothetical situation based on nothing.

As we've established, it's not based on nothing though, is it?

And of course I have concerns over the Tories. Boris is a complete tool. But ultimately I'd trust them to run the country better than Corbyn and bring some stability back by fudging Brexit rather than going through the shambles of another referendum.

Judging by the polls enough people agree with me. Not sure that'll be enough for me to actually vote Tory, I still haven't to this date I should add, but I sure as shit won't be voting Labour.

[Yeldoow]

I honestly can't understand what about the last 9 years or so of the Conservatives in government would make anyone want to trust them to run the country. The last 3 years in particular have been a complete shambles.

[Yevrah]

I honestly can't understand what about the last 9 years or so of the Conservatives in government would make anyone want to trust them to run the country. The last 3 years in particular have been a complete shambles.

Nothing, but when the alternative is Labour and their current state, what are you going to do?

[Yeldoow]

I'd go with Labour over the Conservatives at the moment.

Labour don't inspire a huge amount of confidence that they won't be a train wreck, but the Conservatives have proved they are.

[Henry]

Henry dismissing the Chief Rabbi's accusations of antisemitism for "having form" has to be the highlight so far.


He does have form, since he equates criticism of Israeli government with anti-Semitism. That's what most of this is about, and it shouldn't be other than a trivial point for me to make.

There was an enquiry in 2016 (Chakrabarti Inquiry) which found “no evidence” of systemic anti-Semitism in Labour. A cross party parliamentary Select Committee in 2016 concluded that “there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of anti-Semitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party.” Incidents of anti-Semitism within Labour account for 0.08 percent of its membership of around 500,000 people, one-third the rate in the general population.

Meanwhile, despite the hysteria, nobody here is naming names as to who the prominent anti-Semites are in Labour.


Honestly, this is how it starts gents. If Corbyn were ever to get into power Henry would be along citing the greater good.

Yeah, fuck you.

[Spikey M]

I honestly can't understand what about the last 9 years or so of the Conservatives in government would make anyone want to trust them to run the country. The last 3 years in particular have been a complete shambles.

The last 3 years have been a cross-party omnishambles.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What has actually got worse since 2010 and how will Corbyn improve those things?

[Yeldoow]

The last 3 years have been a cross-party omnishambles.
The Conservatives are the government, you can't blame the opposition for opposing them.

The Brexit shambles is entirely of the Conservatives own making.


What has actually got worse since 2010 and how will Corbyn improve those things?

Just of the top of my head in my local area:

GPs surgeries closing despite increasing local population leading to increasing inability to get GP appointments.

Increasing A&E waiting times. I've had to go to A&E a few times in the last year and not waited less than 4 hours once.

My daughters school has twice this year sent out letters basically begging parents to buy books for the school.

My wife is a teacher and hasn't had much positive to say about education policy in general for nearly a decade but I couldn't really give you any detail on that (I don't listen that much).

Reduced opening times at the dump and new rules requiring you to prove you live in the county to be able to go there (I know this is a local council issue, but they will of course blame budget cuts).

As for how Corbyn will improve these issues, I don't know. Election manifestoes aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but I'm sure they're making all sorts of promises to chuck more money at it. Ultimately I think that as long as we have an effective two party system then if you're unhappy with the current government, the only alternative is that the other party get in and you hope they do a better job at least for a while (that and hope for electoral reform).

The Conservatives always win around here regardless so I'll probably just vote for whichever party (Lib Dem/Labour) looks like running them closest.

[The Merse]

What has actually got worse since 2010 and how will Corbyn improve those things?

Social (investment in local services etc) and economic disparity across the uk, which for me has given rise to the toxic culture we see everywhere. Social mobility having decreased (some optimism put it at a stagnated level, but that follows growth under the previous government) for starters, albeit I'd probably represent a great outlier in that regard, it's plainly obvious from myriad metrics.

Also see
Fall in real terms earning
Increase in real terms poverty - particularly increase in children born into poverty
Number of food banks (instances) across the uk
Number of attendees of food banks
Number of rough sleepers
Increases in NHS waiting times

That's off the top of my head and purely around my terms of reference for performance of a governments primary duties.

[Magic]

Jesus what's changed since 2010? Are you living in a bubble?

[John Arne]

I mean, I hate to defend Henry here - but nobody is actually providing any evidence of the systematic anti-semiticism. Someone even said that prominent members of the party are at it - yet still didn't provide anything.

Just provide it, and then we can either lol at Henry or we beg for forgiveness and vote Labour.

I genuinely don't know where I stand on this... So I look forward to the links and stories.

[Yevrah]

Merse, you raise some valid points, but I'm simply not having the poverty one. The measure is a complete nonsense.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Social (investment in local services etc) and economic disparity across the uk, which for me has given rise to the toxic culture we see everywhere. Social mobility having decreased (some optimism put it at a stagnated level, but that follows growth under the previous government) for starters, albeit I'd probably represent a great outlier in that regard, it's plainly obvious from myriad metrics.

Also see
Fall in real terms earning
Increase in real terms poverty - particularly increase in children born into poverty
Number of food banks (instances) across the uk
Number of attendees of food banks
Number of rough sleepers
Increases in NHS waiting times

That's off the top of my head and purely around my terms of reference for performance of a governments primary duties.

How will Labour (or even any hypothetical new government) reverse these trends?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think education funding is the most obvious and easily changeable thing, as that is basically about amounts of money. I think the NHS is a lot more complex than that.

Btw I wasn't claiming above that nothing has got worse, I just think discourse has slipped into everyone screaming about life being terrible without explaining why and how it can be improved.

[Lewis]

Those points might make the basis of an argument if you were talking about a bit more taxing 'n' spending to round off some edges instead of letting actual mongs borrow hundreds of billions a year for the rest of time.

[The Merse]

How will Labour (or even any hypothetical new government) reverse these trends?


Allow me to be slightly tangential in the context around this, as I don’t really care all that much at this stage.

I’ll vote for those whose high level, conceptual deliverables are aligned with my mode of thought right now. For me, it’s a relatively easy choice of Labour for the very simple reason that they’re promising higher public expenditure, and higher taxes with remediation of many of the societal issues I mention above at the top of the agenda. Also, I live smack bang in the middle of Jezza’s constituency so If I get run over by a bus tomorrow I know my vote wouldn’t really have done a damned thing anyway.

I’ve previously obsessed on the exact ‘hows’. However, since managing bigger portfolios of big projects over the next 3/4 years, I’ve come to realise that just as when I sit at the start of that programme with finger in the air figures on how much it’ll cost and value it’ll deliver etc, the solutions will change and be challenged and take on a more tangible form only after lots more work.

That’s what you’re electing, and similar to me asking for investment on my educated hunches in my place, really we’re backing a portfolio of proposals that you wouldn’t possibly want a govmnt to be inflexible with over their tenure - otherwise why not just vote on policies and let civil servants dutifully put them in practice?

Of the specific policies on offer from them, I don’t see a panacea, no one should, but I see good things working towards those remediations. I see things that look more like some of the progressive nations I admire, and I see little which concerns me overly (like anytime lowering of taxes and specifically inheritance tax would).

One thing I am concerned about is that I don’t feel they’re being ambitious enough - I don’t hit the 5%/80k p/a earnings they’re targeting the 45% rate at, but I’d welcome it coming down to my level - I pay a far bit of 40% and would welcome that whole band being moved to 45%. I think I’m not alone in the younger City workers from non-Surrey/Posh Kent/Posh Essex/SW London backgrounds too... There’s broad agreement that we’d pay more to live in a better, more cohesive environment.

In general terms, I’ve become a lot more anarchic (in the loose/emotional sense of simply wanting to rip up the whole make up of British politics) over the past few years, and in particular, I really have come to be very cynical about FPTP and our insistence on electing a singularly mandated, majority government. In my youth I’d trot out the same old response of ‘look at those lot in XXX over the channel with their silly coalitions never getting anywhere, we don’t want to be like them!’. Time, Germany, the SNP majority in Hollywood, the Tories somehow being bigger cunts without the Lib Dem’s temperance after all... I’d welcome some form of PR/AV and more coalition govmt for sure.

[Lewis]

Why not just pay more tax off your own back?

[The Merse]

Merse, you raise some valid points, but I'm simply not having the poverty one. The measure is a complete nonsense.


I’ve had this conversation before, and ten years ago I’d poo-poo it due to being someone that apparently was in relative poverty from birth to age ten or eleven and giving it the ‘it weren’t that bad in’t those days’...

I think the problem I had, which you might, with the term is that it conjures images of Dickensian poverty or of third world poverty and of course, the standards of living are disparate. But the term is valid, it is relative, it’s academic, and it’s not going away. As such, I’ll keep using the term, but I do see where your objection comes from.

[The Merse]

Why not just pay more tax off your own back?

Technically have been, as it happens, anonymously no less. But that’s another uninteresting story...

[Yevrah]

it is relative

That's the problem I have with it. Poverty can't be measured relatively.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think that's a good and fair post, and in particular I completely agree with you on the point about 'how' being a loaded question because the goalposts inevitably change. A good government is about strategy and not tactics. Thatcher's government and Blair's government both had a mission and both accomplished it, even if both may have had detrimental effects depending on one's opinion. For the first time since perhaps 1987, at this election with Johnson and Corbyn I think we are seeing both the main parties actually standing for a way of approaching the national future and in both cases that should count for more than 'policies' or manifesto pledges.

At the same time, it also has to be recognised that under globalisation things like real terms wage decreases are just not within the gift or control of national governments.

I personally think we are further away than ever from PR. As Labour and the Lib Dems have demonstrated in this campaign, no one is willing to work with anyone else.

[The Merse]

I
That's the problem I have with it. Poverty can't be measured relatively.

In literal terms it very much can be, I’d argue. But I get it’s a more emotive word than that for most.

[The Merse]

I think that's a good and fair post, and in particular I completely agree with you on the point about 'how' being a loaded question because the goalposts inevitably change. A good government is about strategy and not tactics. Thatcher's government and Blair's government both had a mission and both accomplished it, even if both may have had detrimental effects depending on one's opinion. For the first time since perhaps 1987, at this election with Johnson and Corbyn I think we are seeing both the main parties actually standing for a way of approaching the national future and in both cases that should count for more than 'policies' or manifesto pledges.

At the same time, it also has to be recognised that under globalisation things like real terms wage decreases are just not within the gift or control of national governments.

I personally think we are further away than ever from PR. As Labour and the Lib Dems have demonstrated in this campaign, no one is willing to work with anyone else.

Agree totally on all points. The latter leading me more into my anarchic rants in the pub. It’s an odd dichotomy - I’d argue the more polarised a nations interest groups, the more the need for bipartisan consensus, and that’s not exactly a ground breaking concept. Yet, we’re seeing an increased appetite for the precise antithesis of that idea.

Fucked, I tell thee.

[Pepe]

That's the problem I have with it. Poverty can't be measured relatively.

How do you measure it absolutely? Is there a physical law that establishes the range of poverty? If not, then it cannot be anything else but relative. You are free to choose whatever definition you like, of course, but then so does everyone else.


I’d welcome it coming down to my level - I pay a far bit of 40% and would welcome that whole band being moved to 45%. I think I’m not alone in the younger City workers from non-Surrey/Posh Kent/Posh Essex/SW London backgrounds too... There’s broad agreement that we’d pay more to live in a better, more cohesive environment.

I sympathize with this view, but the problem with the "I'd gladly pay more taxes" view is that it always assumes an honest government that would pursue the policies you want. Instead, you are stuck with a crappy government that you hate. So the actual question should be: Are you willing to give more money to the current government? Because that is what you are stuck with.

[Lewis]

You could give the money to charity, or to the nearest poor person (where it would actually do the most direct good). It's normally a thing wankers say to look good, knowing they will never have to back it up, but if Merse has been then fair play.

[Pepe]

Or to this bunch:

https://www.effectivealtruism.org/

[The Merse]

I sympathize with this view, but the problem with the "I'd gladly pay more taxes" view is that it always assumes an honest government that would pursue the policies you want. Instead, you are stuck with a crappy government that you hate. So the actual question should be: Are you willing to give more money to the current government? Because that is what you are stuck with.

I understand that, but I’d say firstly, yes - I would actually support paying more tax with whichever party is in power. Albeit, I’d rather it wasn’t for an increased spend in outdated notions around national defence for instance, but broadly speaking none of the parties (maybe the mentalists left in UKIP who’ve genuinely gone past the point of reason) would likely spend the vast majority of the money all that dissimilarly - that is, that primarily that we’re mainly funding key services and welfare.

[Magic]

Merse, you raise some valid points, but I'm simply not having the poverty one. The measure is a complete nonsense.

What is the measure? Take a look at the schools. Take a look at education. It is as bad as it's ever been. This is the next generation, absolutely fucked.

At it's most destitute level in Dundee, the kids that are lucky enough (yes lucky) to be taken in to care are far safer than those at risk (massive). There are not enough services, and that's the effect of the cuts. The parents are fucked, the kids are even more fucked. It'll get worse before it gets better. Austerity seemed sensible at the time, but only now are we starting to see the real, horrific effects on a massive social scale. This will take just as long, if not longer, to turn around.

[Henry]

I mean, I hate to defend Henry here - but nobody is actually providing any evidence of the systematic anti-semiticism. Someone even said that prominent members of the party are at it - yet still didn't provide anything.

Just provide it, and then we can either lol at Henry or we beg for forgiveness and vote Labour.

I genuinely don't know where I stand on this... So I look forward to the links and stories.

Still waiting. At most what we'll get is a few isolated incidents about words being chosen poorly. Nothing to justify the hysterics about "what will become of the UK Jewish population?", as if the pogroms are ready to start up.

Also LOL at Lewis trying to pretend that taxation and charity are the same thing.

[Henry]

How will Labour (or even any hypothetical new government) reverse these trends?

Ensuring that everyone has shelter and enough food is very easily solved, just by giving them those things or the means to get them. Wages and waiting lists are harder to tackle, but the starting point has to be to want to tackle them, which the Tories fundamentally don't.

[Lewis]

Also LOL at Lewis trying to pretend that taxation and charity are the same thing.

The difference is coercion, but you and everyone else who wants to pay more taxation could quite easily set up a system where you redistribute your wealth without having to submit yourselves to that. You could call it iCommune. Something commune-based anyway.

[phonics]

People who say 'If you think people should pay more taxes, why don't you volunteer more' is a fucking braindead moron. It's up there with 'You should have to pass a test to be able to vote/have children' as ways to spot someone who thinks they're much smarter than they are.

[Lewis]

It's right though isn't it. That Toby Ord geezer does it, although I've no idea whether he's literally a communist.

[phonics]

Yeah we could all gather up in a commune, and everyone that lived inside the commune... lets call them borders, could say how much they and others within the commune contribute by... signalling their opinion with some sort of vote. They're likely working so obviously they couldn't take all that time to get involved in the nitty gritty and the various... citizens of the commune could nominate a delegate to represent their views at the meeting. Then whoever got the most votes could decide how much they pay. They could then use these contributions to make the commune a better place by piling their money together to spend on services for the commune.

Does this concept remind you of anything?

[mugbull]

Or to this bunch:

https://www.effectivealtruism.org/

Effective altruism is the stupidest “fad” of the last few years.

[phonics]

Effective altruism is the stupidest “fad” of the last few years.

What a load of nonsense that is.

"Effective altruism encourages individuals to consider all causes and actions and to act in the way that brings about the greatest positive impact, based upon their values."

So murdering 50% of the population then?

[Lewis]

Yeah we could all gather up in a commune, and everyone that lived inside the commune... lets call them borders, could say how much they and others within the commune contribute by... signalling their opinion with some sort of vote. They're likely working so obviously they couldn't take all that time to get involved in the nitty gritty and the various... citizens of the commune could nominate a delegate to represent their views at the meeting. Then whoever got the most votes could decide how much they pay. They could then use these contributions to make the commune a better place by piling their money together to spend on services for the commune.

Does this concept remind you of anything?

If you only do things that the commune says you have to do, do you also not do things that the commune says you can't do?

[phonics]

To continue being a part of the commune, I guess so. They could write up a list of rules that you could be punished for if a group of your peers agreed you had broken one. Maybe set-up a sort of series of locked rooms for those that had strongly gone against the rules.

Does any of this, literally any of it, remind you of anything?

[Lewis]

No. If you're only refraining from doing things the commune disapproves of in order to retain your liberty then you are being coerced into doing so. You should want to live within the laws of the commune (as to commune a better place), and wouldn't, for example, dabble in illegal drug use, because that would suggest that you don't consider yourself to be bound by communal norms and have taken unilateral action.

[Spikey M]

Lewis is going to start a cult. :cool:

[Lewis]

Club Lewis: Taxation Optional

[Henry]

Lewis is going to start a cult. :cool:

He thinks that taxation is theft, he's already in one.

[Pepe]

What a load of nonsense that is.

"Effective altruism encourages individuals to consider all causes and actions and to act in the way that brings about the greatest positive impact, based upon their values."

So murdering 50% of the population then?

I think that, mostly, they just want you to throw a few bucks on the way of poor people. As far as stupid fads go, I thought it might not be the absolute worst, but I am glad that mokkers has set me straight.

As if I would donate my money to anyone.

[Shindig]

Sounds alright to me. It's a little soulless but then so is most politics.

[mugbull]

I think that, mostly, they just want you to throw a few bucks on the way of poor people. As far as stupid fads go, I thought it might not be the absolute worst, but I am glad that mokkers has set me straight.

As if I would donate my money to anyone.

I went to a talk some effective altruist Oxford philosophy professor gave and she spent much of the lecture trying to multiply zero with infinity and calculate expected utilities for improbable events. All this wannabe science to just say “do what’s best for the world” at the end. Great. I guess we’re all gonna go buy mosquito nets for african kids now.

[Spikey M]

I reckon it must be piss easy to start a cult. People will throw money at any old shite. We should start one.

[Shindig]

Just go into any twitch channel. The internet's full of massive, massive doormats.

[Queenslander]

I reckon it must be piss easy to start a cult. People will throw money at any old shite. We should start one.

Northern NSW is the place to go for peak cult action.

[randomlegend]

On the "what's got worse" question, the NHS is obviously struggling but schools are absolutely fucked beyond belief.

The school my fiance works appears to have someone in charge of finance who is a master of some sort of financial witchcraft and they were breaking even until the latest round of cuts. Following their implementation they project going tens of thousands into debt. Most schools were already in a massive financial hole even before that so God knows what they'll do; mass layoffs of support staff like teaching assistants seems to be one of the answers.

The stories about schools begging parents or having teachers buy basic supplies are not a few isolated incidents in deprived areas, it's becoming the norm. It should be a source of national shame but because there's a prevalent Jimmy and Lewis "moaning teachers lolololol" attitude, it seems to fly under the radar (I guess teachers etc. are put off shouting about it for the same reason).

[Yevrah]

I don't know why anyone would go into teaching these days, it looks like an appalling job. Which it really shouldn't be and is probably a source of national shame that it is.

[randomlegend]

There's also a fucking insane amount of money wasted in the NHS because of a lack of social care funding.

You cut social funding which prompts people to be admitted to hospital. At which point the NHS is rightly obligated to care for these people and you spend orders of magnitude more money doing so than you would have if you paid for the social care in the first place. It is mind-blowingly stupid.

As a real world example; young patient with end stage renal disease on dialysis. Ex-IVDU who somehow managed to get themself clean. Horrific history of abuse with little social network and so usually homeless.

I saw them admitted probably 10 times over the past year because they had no address so couldn't attend their dialysis, got unwell and ended up attending via A and E. During one admission they spent a month in ITU.

If we were able to house them somewhere safe and stable, most of those admissions could have been avoided. The cost of the ITU admission alone would probably pay to privately rent a flat for the rest of their life.

They are dead now.

I've spent the last 8 months working in care of the elderly and the same thing there; ENORMOUS amounts of wasted money because perfectly well elderly people come into hospital as their care needs aren't being met any more in the community.

In and of itself that's not unreasonable, but it's the fact it can then take weeks and even months to find them suitable social care, all the time the NHS pays for an acute in-patient bed which is just crazy (and my experience is on specialist frailty units with people who are extremely experienced at dealing with the systems; it's even worse on other wards). Then we wonder why A and Es are overwhelmed; they can't get patients upstairs because beds are stuck full of people who've been waiting for placement for 3 weeks who were never actually ill in the first place.

It's not like it's problem solved once they find somewhere either, since a lot of the care homes are acopic shithouses who send people back in to start the cycle again for no fucking reason.

[randomlegend]

I don't know why anyone would go into teaching these days, it looks like an appalling job. Which it really shouldn't be and is probably a source of national shame that it is.

I'm not just saying it because she's my fiance, but she is genuinely fantastic at her job by all measures. She's also working in one of the best schools with regards to working conditions for teachers around. And she's hardcore; she works way harder than I do as a junior doctor.

I'd be stunned if she hasn't left the profession in the next five years. To maintain any sort of standards in your teaching, you have no choice but to live a completely unsustainable lifestyle. It's really sad.

They are treated like expendable resources in a lot of ways. Train them up, flog them into the ground for a few years, let them quit and replace them with new ones who are cheaper.

[Shindig]

Care is knackered as well. Understaffed and underfunded.

[Pepe]

I went to a talk some effective altruist Oxford philosophy professor gave and she spent much of the lecture trying to multiply zero with infinity and calculate expected utilities for improbable events. All this wannabe science to just say “do what’s best for the world” at the end. Great. I guess we’re all gonna go buy mosquito nets for african kids now.

I haven't looked into it, just know that it exists, but wannabe science to say do what's best for the world sounds about right. Still, putting money on mosquito nets does sound more effective than putting it on, say, breast cancer awareness.

[Pepe]

I understand why health care is much more expensive now than it was on the sixties (because it is way better), but why is education much more expensive nowadays? There has not been any improvement in teaching since, probably ever.

[Boydy]

I understand why health care is much more expensive now than it was on the sixties (because it is way better), but why is education much more expensive nowadays? There has not been any improvement in teaching since, probably ever.

Because there's money to be made.

[Pepe]

Isn't it all public over there? Who is making the money?

[Lewis]

We spend the same as/more than comparable countries on education, so it might be down to how it gets spent rather than how much is available.

[niko_cee]

For all the bleating about social care, didn't May basically fall on that very issue at the last election by trying to propose something vaguely sane, only to have Combrade Corbz and all lining up saying how terrible it was people would have to sell their homes to pay for it rather than pass them on to their children?

The Tories are obviously fighting the campaign this time they should have last time (perhaps the reality is they shouldn't have had that election), but whether that's a good idea remains to be seen. It feels like they're clinging on already without any major gaffes.

If you want nice things you have to tax the fuck out of the poor and the middle classes. It's what they do in progressive Europe, where in Germany the investment banker pays the same rate of income tax as the factory worker (if a recent BBC article is to be believed - 47% all round). Middle incomes and consumption (VAT) are the low hanging fruit. Tax evasion and making BIG BUSINESS pay is a red herring.

[Spikey M]

Isn't it all public over there? Who is making the money?

Being a public institution adds about 75 layers of red tape. It also means any work that needs doing or supplies that need ordering all have to comple from a small crop of approved traders. Surprisingly, said traders take advantage of their captive market and triple their prices.

[Pepe]

Being a public institution adds about 75 layers of red tape. It also means any work that needs doing or supplies that need ordering all have to comple from a small crop of approved traders. Surprisingly, said traders take advantage of their captive market and triple their prices.

If that is indeed true (and should be easy to measure) then asking for more money for the schools does not seem like a good solution, at all. Said traders will just soak it up.

[Lewis]

The 'Dementia Tax' was a good idea, and would effectively be replicated anyway if the pinkos reduced the inheritance tax threshold or brought in some sort of sinister 'gift tax'. This is all - not surprisingly - Tony Blair's fault.

[mo]

Isn't it all public over there? Who is making the money?

CEOs of Multi Academy Trusts.

Add in growing class sizes, chucking money away recruiting teachers who don't stay in teaching and cutting government spending in education, etc.

[randomlegend]

Isn't it all public over there? Who is making the money?

Since academisation was brought in (which is being enforced more and more) a lot of schools are actually run by for-profit academy chains...

EDIT: as mo says

[randomlegend]

For all the bleating about social care, didn't May basically fall on that very issue at the last election by trying to propose something vaguely sane, only to have Combrade Corbz and all lining up saying how terrible it was people would have to sell their homes to pay for it rather than pass them on to their children?

I am 100% sure you would save money overall if you improved social care. Acute hospital admissions cost a fucking fortune.

[Pepe]

Will giving them more money solve any issues then?

EDIT: them being the for-profit academy chains

[niko_cee]

I'm sure that's right, but no fucker is going to vote for it if the argument involves even a scintilla of nuance.

[randomlegend]

Will giving them more money solve any issues then?

EDIT: them being the for-profit academy chains

Probably not, but the Tories were the ones who academised all the schools despite massive opposition from the schools/teachers/heads/everyone else but themselves so I don't have much confidence in them doing anything to improve the situation going forward (especially given they continue to cut budgets).

[Lewis]

Also if the government tried re-directing existing resources idiots would start bealing about x thousand nurses being sacked.

[Shindig]

I often wonder if Universal Credit and PIP has actually saved the government money.

[randomlegend]

Also if the government tried re-directing existing resources idiots would start bealing about x thousand nurses being sacked.

Well you can't do it that way round can you, because the social care infrastructure won't go into place overnight no matter what money you throw at it.

But if you invest there, the burden on the NHS falls and you can stop doing things like employeeing 100s of new non-trainee junior doctors from abroad every November or employing bank nurses on higher hourly wages (who can barely do anything because they "aren't signed off for that in this hospital") than consultants to cover desperately overstretched A and Es.

Honestly I bet if you removed all the admissions which could be avoided by better social care and accessible GPs, you could run the hospital I work at without any bank/locum staff which would save a fortune.

But it seems impossible to do anything that 'long'-term.

[phonics]

For all the bleating about social care, didn't May basically fall on that very issue at the last election by trying to propose something vaguely sane, only to have Combrade Corbz and all lining up saying how terrible it was people would have to sell their homes to pay for it rather than pass them on to their children?

You can't build an entire economy around owning a house and then nick it off them when they get Alzheimers.

[Shindig]

Yes, you can. They can't remember.

[niko_cee]

You can't build an entire economy around owning a house and then nick it off them when they get Alzheimers.

It's not really nicking it though, is it?

I mean, if you have half a million in the bank do you get to keep that whilst the state funds your old age care? I realise old age care and social care may not be the same thing.

[phonics]

It's not really nicking it though, is it?

I mean, if you have half a million in the bank do you get to keep that whilst the state funds your old age care? I realise old age care and social care may not be the same thing.

I mean that's literally the point of something called a National Health Service right? If your argument is 'To service your health, sell us your house'. You don't believe in the NHS. It's pretty clear. It's the ultimate proof you don't believe in it and want to privatise their care.

[randomlegend]

I mean that's literally the point of something called a National Health Service right? If your argument is 'To service your health, sell us your house'. You don't believe in the NHS. It's pretty clear. It's the ultimate proof you don't believe in it and want to privatise their care.

To be fair, it's probably not that straightforward to draw a line between what constitutes social care and what constitutes healthcare for frail, elderly people. Nobody is suggesting they pay for their hospital admissions for example.

[phonics]

People who thinks electoral politics is about nuance is as dumb as Lewis on the page prior. People don't give a shit. They hear 'Grandma health bad? We'll take her house'.

[John Arne]

I mean that's literally the point of something called a National Health Service right? If your argument is 'To service your health, sell us your house'. You don't believe in the NHS. It's pretty clear. It's the ultimate proof you don't believe in it and want to privatise their care.

Isn't that how it works at the moment? As I understand it, Care Homes and such are means-tested, and the price you pay is dependent on your savings, assets etc.

[phonics]

Isn't that how it works at the moment? As I understand it, Care Homes and such are means-tested, and the price you pay is dependent on your savings, assets etc.

Yes. It's not the Government telling Lewis to get out his Nans house though is it. Like I say, nuance doesn't matter.

[Lewis]

If this stuff is to be paid for then people either need to pay more tax or use their own assets, and if that means selling your house then so be it. It's why I never got main the argument against the 'mansion tax' being that some old people might have to move. And? If you can't afford to maintain your property (taxes and all), then you have to get a cheaper one. It's not a million miles away from the agreeable logic of the 'bedroom tax'.

[phonics]

If this stuff is to be paid for then people either need to pay more tax or use their own assets, and if that means selling your house then so be it. It's why I never got main the argument against the 'mansion tax' being that some old people might have to move. And? If you can't afford to maintain your property (taxes and all), then you have to get a cheaper one. It's not a million miles away from the agreeable logic of the 'bedroom tax'.

Yeah they should probably move to the commune and pay more tax.

The Bedroom Tax was fucking dumb because there was no way for these people to move into places without one so it was just taxing people for existing. It makes sense in a country with loads of 1 bedroom flats being built but not in the UK.

[Lewis]

Well if they didn't ration housebuilding.

[phonics]

Yeah, how has the lot you throw in behind been on that?

[Lewis]

Absolutely shit.

[phonics]

How long will Labour have to be out of power; for whatever the Tories have ballsed up this week to be not Labours fault.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Labour would absolutely piss this election (or the last one) if they had a unifying, charismatic leader. Ed Miliband platform (or even more left of that) with Blair charisma, say.

People know what things are like at the moment but they won't go for change unless the opposition is wholly convincing. Opposition never wins elections for the sake of it, just look at Kinnock. Corbyn is complete poison to around 60% of the electorate and the only way he can be PM would be at the head of an unwieldy coalition which would compromise a lot of his platform.

[Lewis]

We won't be 'unifying' anything until some sort of [electoral] consensus emerges around it being too big a pain in the arse to re-join the European Union, so I'm not sure how some cut-out New Labour tosser would offer anything useful in the current environment.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They wouldn't, but they would get voted in for non-Brexit reasons if they had the Labour apparatus behind them.

[Lewis]

Isn't this just why Boris Johnson is winning nine years into unpopular/crap Conservative[-led] government?

[Yevrah]

This Andrew Neil dodging really has reached pathetic levels.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-50620692/election-2019-boris-johnson-pressed-over-andrew-neil-interview

[Shindig]

A grown man shouldn't squirm that much.

[Yevrah]

Indeed. I don't even care whether he appears or not, just man the fuck up when you're asked about it.

[phonics]

Severely dissapointed no-ones posted the Ken Livingstone getting his foot stuck in a tube door video.

1201452503642099714

"Mr. Livingstone, you know better than this!" :D

[Spikey M]

:lol:

[Shindig]

Wonderful. Also, Labour's finally put their leaflet through the door. It includes an open letter from the Miners Association. You can imagine how steeped in 80s vitriol that is.

[Lewis]

I thought that Ian Lavery thing about stolen pensions was a spoof.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's pretty sad that literally all they have to say in the north these days is harking back to the events of 40 years ago. If the Tories sent round three day week leaflets, Twitter would be ablaze.

[Boydy]

It's pretty sad that literally all they have to say in the north these days is harking back to the events of 40 years ago. If the Tories sent round three day week leaflets, Twitter would be ablaze.

Maybe it's because some of those areas still haven't recovered from that.

[Shindig]

I keep dipping into the Durham Mining Museum website and seeing just how many pits the North East had. And the sheer manpower required to run them.

[Lewis]

The sixties chucked more miners out of work than the eighties. It was dead.

[Shindig]

Aye, their figures say as much. The ones I remember hanging on for dear life are the ones like Easington.

[Lewis]

1203055861188497408

These shit Conservative Party memes are some of the best political content of all time. They're probably the sole reason Dominic Grieve appeared to have aged twenty years on the telly earlier.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If I know Deadly Dom as well as I think I do, he will be firing out some truly egregious shite online during the next 3-5 days and it will be a glorious week.

They will then go on to govern quite well.

[Lewis]

1203071284579651590

They need to publish a book of all these masterpieces.

[-james-]

Those are worse than loljesus.

[Lewis]

1203045532794531840

What the fuck is that gearbox from?

[Lewis]

1202614354408951808

Fair play that's a good one.

[Pepe]

1203045532794531840

What the fuck is that gearbox from?

This maybe?

https://cdn3.volusion.com/nzfzp.aykwu/v/vspfiles/photos/THR-TH8A-2.jpg?v-cache=1420291474

EDIT: No, doesn't match.

[Lofty]

If I know Deadly Dom as well as I think I do, he will be firing out some truly egregious shite online during the next 3-5 days and it will be a glorious week.

They will then go on to govern quite well.

I mean it would be hard to govern worse than spunking £100m advertising a Brexit date that didn't happen and several more million on a ferry fiasco but then we all know Labour are fiscally irresponsable. At least Bozza will be able to play hardball with the political heavyweights post Brexit like he did with Piers Morgan and Andrew Neil...

[Spikey M]

If Labour don't respond with a 'don't put Britain in Reverse' advert, then they don't even want to win.

[Waffdon]

Labour already won and ended the online trolling with their ‘Spotify Wrapped’ Tweet.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What the fuck is that gearbox from?

Something that a C2 in the midlands would drive. Forklift truck?

[Shindig]

I just went to Labour's twitter to see what that spotify tweet was. And then I saw the top Tory quotes one.

Fuck it, lads. You have my attention. :D

[Disco]

Something that a C2 in the midlands would drive. Forklift truck?

A forklift with that many gears would be mental.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Maybe a forklift in a very very big warehouse. What's between a van and a forklift?

[phonics]

You're all overthinking it. It's just easier to draw, I can't find the one from that angle but it's like the 4th picture on shutterstock when you search for gearbox

https://i.imgur.com/zxCskWL.png

[Giggles]

A forklift will have two (three if you count reverse) gears tops.

[Pepe]

Forklift Directional Controls – This basically works just like the transmission of a car. If you want to park the car, you put it in “P” or park, if you want to drive the car, you put it in “D” or drive, and you want to reverse, you switch the transmission lever to “R.” But forklift directional control has only three positions, forward, neutral and reverse. Forklift directional controls can be steering column mounted or foot operated.

http://forkliftlicenseguide.com/blog/237-forklift-controls

Looks like forklifts work like automatics, but maybe it is different over there. We need to investigate this further.

[Giggles]

http://forkliftlicenseguide.com/blog/237-forklift-controls

Looks like forklifts work like automatics, but maybe it is different over there. We need to investigate this further.

I used to drive one that was D1, D2 (faster), P, and R. But yeah, all in a straight line.

[John]

You're all overthinking it. It's just easier to draw, I can't find the one from that angle but it's like the 4th picture on shutterstock when you search for gearbox

https://i.imgur.com/zxCskWL.png

Not the same.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There isn't any car gearbox that looks like that so it must be from some kind of larger vehicle, but the stick is too short to be from a lorry.

[Shindig]

Maybe it's the Brexit bus? Someone should find out where it's parked. Big numbers on the side. Can't miss it.

[7om]

Stunning news just days before the election: Lord Buckethead has fought and lost a copyright claim against his identity and will instead be standing as Count Binface.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/count-binface-who-lord-buckethead-boris-johnson-general-election-2019-constituency-1335042

[phonics]

It happened weeks ago...

[Waffdon]

Jelly and Ice Cream when Boris loses his seat in Uxbridge.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Not a chance of that. Labour topped out in 2017.

Swinson to lose her seat is not impossible.

[Lewis]

Wor Boris taking one for the team and Priti Patel becoming Prime Minister could conceivably add to the general shit fit.

[Smjffy]

Not a chance of that. Labour topped out in 2017.

Swinson to lose her seat is not impossible.

I really hope she does. I don't know what it is about her but she strikes me as evil. Every time I see her I just focus on her eyes whilst hoping she shuts her gob.

EDIT: As a side note, Labour are 8/11 for Alyn & Deeside. It was the same in the last election as we're mainly Labour and it didn't change then and it won't change this time round either. Conservatives are 11/10 but it simply won't happen. Chaps round here tend to stick with what they know despite saying otherwise.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think my favourite thing in this campaign has been people on twitter earnestly lolling at the dogshit graphic design used by the Tories. Don't you think maybe they're being deliberately non-slick? This thought doesn't seem to cross people's minds, it's like a microcosm of why Remain has failed from 2016 onwards. They cannot conceive of a world in which sophistication is not everyone's main aim.

[Boydy]

I think my favourite thing in this campaign has been people on twitter earnestly lolling at the dogshit graphic design used by the Tories. Don't you think maybe they're being deliberately non-slick? This thought doesn't seem to cross people's minds, it's like a microcosm of why Remain has failed from 2016 onwards. They cannot conceive of a world in which sophistication is not everyone's main aim.

Alright, Laura Kuenssberg.

[phonics]

Alright, Laura Kuenssberg.

Her referring to that as ‘shitposting’ like she knew what that was when her definition was completely wrong is what proved to me she just burbles you whatever some ‘insider’ tells her.

[Lofty]

Wor Boris taking one for the team and Priti Patel becoming Prime Minister could conceivably add to the general shit fit.

Patel would happily sign the death warrant of someone who committed the same offence she did (conspiring against the government with a foriegn power), truly the worst timeline we live in. Mert will be the next Chancellor at this rate.

[Giggles]

Patel is the only one of them all, including the knuckle draggers in the DUP, that comes across as the evil in its purest form.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Reckon Gove would be caretaker PM if Boris croaked in Uxbridge but the Tories still won (pretty much an impossible scenario as if they lost there, they would lose in general).

Either that or they could immediately make him Lord Johnson and he can be PM from there.

[phonics]

https://i.imgur.com/jkrCRGM.png

Do you think she ever reads back any of this and thinks, 'God I really do make myself look like a fucking idiot for the sole benefit of these chumps in 10 Downing St who will throw me under the bus as soon as it becomes politically expedient to them.'

[Lewis]

Throughout the entire process 'checks' has been shorthand for stopping the van and having a rummage around, so they can't suddenly start defining it as any additional administrative bullshit.

[phonics]

Even if so, I'd say slightly more important to be on the straight and narrow about it than whether Corbyn WATCHES THE FUCKING QUEEN AT CHRISTMAS.

[Lewis]

It was more that he felt the need to try and lie about watching it than the fact he goes down the shelter for a wash and a new tracksuit instead.

[Manc]

The debate on channel 4 yesterday was horrific. Well dodged by the Tories.

[Giggles]

Didn't Johnson yellow out of all the debates and interviews? In fairness, if people can't see through that then they deserve him.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He did two head to heads with Corbyn and one of the other ones I think.

There are far too many of the things anyway, all absolutely dreadful, if we're going to have them it should be a single two-hour event taking place about now (not a month ago) between the three leaders putting up enough candidates to win a majority. Scots and Welsh are regional parties and until they vote themselves independent are minor factors nationally, and the Greens/Farage's loons can fuck off.

[phonics]

LauraK going BIG on a Tory adviser being ASSAULTED by NHS ACTIVISTS.

Here's the video of the assault

1204093532727914497

Suddenly the tweet is nowhere to be found. Fucking incredible she's allowed to keep her job.

[Yevrah]

He bottled out of the Andrew Neill one Giggles, which was pathetic.

[Waffdon]

Laura Kuenssberg is something else. She’s lost the plot.

[phonics]

Laura Kuenssberg is something else. She’s lost the plot.

Quite the opposite, she's made the career decision that repeating whatever CCHQ asks is good for business.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Journos really need to get off twitter. It isn't an important arena.

[phonics]

Journos really need to get off twitter. It isn't an important arena.

She has her own TV show on the Beeb because of Twitter.

[Shindig]

I'm sure the years of work prior with the BBC had more to do with it.

[phonics]

I'm sure the years of work prior with the BBC had more to do with it.

It's literally a TV version of the podcast that is only popular with the weirdos on Twitter.

[Jimmy Floyd]

She has her own TV show on the Beeb because of Twitter.

If this is true, it's only because her bosses are also needlessly obsessed with Twitter.

[Lewis]

Laura Kuenssberg seems to have replaced Israel/Palestine as the thing that both sets of mongs think is biased against them, so she must be alright really.

[niko_cee]

Yeah, I was going to say the only redeeming feature of this election has been the revelation that leftie twitter hates her as some sort of establishment/right-wing patsy.

[Smjffy]

LauraK going BIG on a Tory adviser being ASSAULTED by NHS ACTIVISTS.

Here's the video of the assault

1204093532727914497

Suddenly the tweet is nowhere to be found. Fucking incredible she's allowed to keep her job.

Are you being serious? That's the assault? It came through as breaking news on one of my apps and I assumed it was a full on case of fist to face X 10. FML. They are all such massive cunts who simply cannot be believed. It's unbelievably frustrating.

EDIT: You're serious. :moop:

[phonics]

1204110491242643457

"I'm not corrupt, I'm incompetent"

[Spikey M]

She's probably both.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Of course she isn't corrupt. Having contacts in the government doesn't make her corrupt, it's her job.

People don't want her to be unbiased, they want her to be biased towards their favourite party. Add in that she's on telly a lot and a woman and you have the perfect storm for internet seething frustrated men to abuse her for no reason on a daily basis.

[phonics]

Oh I don't think she's 'corrupt' in the sense that she's being paid off, I think being shit at her job benefits her so she continues to do so.

What's that line again? "If someone tells you it's wet, and someone tells you it's dry your job is to look out the window"?

Jim, describing the above video as someone 'being punched' because two Tory senior advisors told you is not being unbiased. It's just repeating spin.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think that's a problem common to all Twitter journalism, not just Laura Kuenssberg. If they think the expectation is to tweet out as quickly as possible rather than to tweet out quality content (if such a thing is even possible) then half of it is going to end up being shite.

[Waffdon]

Absolutely beaming with excitement to wake up on Friday morning with a Conservative majority. I don’t think I will even bother with the all nighter this time.

[John Arne]

Genuine question... How is Kuenssberg still employed? Surely she is breaking every BBC rule under the sun? I don't agree with those rules, but they exist, and surely she is being way too partisan??

[phonics]

Genuine question... How is Kuenssberg still employed? Surely she is breaking every BBC rule under the sun? I don't agree with those rules, but they exist, and surely she is being way too partisan??

She does it well because she's just quoting 'Senior Party Sources' so it's just 'reporting the news' when it's actually just repeating spin. Peston did a whole essay on it when Oborne called him a twat. He didn't come out looking great.

[Jimmy Floyd]

BBC rules are you double source everything and she did. It's just that both her sources were shite.

Also the left need to be very careful adopting Peter Oborne, he has gone mental and is clearly being funded by the Muslim Council among others.

[Lofty]

Always confused me how TTH has been seemingly so right leaning over the years, whilst I never expected this to change I can't tell if it is just bantz at this point or serious when the quality of government is this inept. I'm not saying Labour would be any less inept but if you or I was this shit at our respective jobs regarding cabinet minister performance we would have been binned long ago.

[phonics]

The right will always stick with their side. It's what makes them so effective, the left would rather spend it's time finding flaws in the arguments of those that agree with them instead.

[Smjffy]

She's every bit as impartial as the BBC itself.

I watched the QT U30's yesterday and the best thing to come from it is making it a criminal offence for MP's who spout bollocks and deceive. It won't happen because there will be none left but the good ones are few and far between. No one believes a word that any of them say and that's dangerous.

It will get worse and people will become further disillusioned. I feel that we'll be rioting in a few years and the army will be forced to patrol the streets. I'm convinced of it, in fact.

[Henry]

You cannot hope to bribe or twist
(thank God!) the British journalist.
But, seeing what the man will do
unbribed, there’s no occasion to.

Let's never again here any bullshit about the BBC being a bastion of the left or a counterweight to the Tory newspapers.

[Lewis]

Peter Oborne converted to Islam when he left the Telegraph.

[Shindig]

We don't do that kind of civil unrest, Smiffy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Always confused me how TTH has been seemingly so right leaning over the years, whilst I never expected this to change I can't tell if it is just bantz at this point or serious when the quality of government is this inept. I'm not saying Labour would be any less inept but if you or I was this shit at our respective jobs regarding cabinet minister performance we would have been binned long ago.

Something being bad doesn't mean something else won't be worse.

[Smjffy]

We don't do that kind of civil unrest, Smiffy.

Yet. We hit new lows on a yearly basis and this particular campaign has been absolutely awful. No one comes out looking good.

I'm obviously not massively clued up with politics although I do try and pay attention but from day one of the campaign you had the Conservatives doctoring video's, changing Twitter handles etc. I just want some honesty.

I read something like 88% of the Conservatives ads are lies or half truths, the Lib Dems can fuck off purely because of JS, she's evil and undemocratic whilst Labour have been a joke for years.

You also have to bare in mind I live in Wales, a big Brexit area despite benefiting from being in the EU but it's like a different world living here and living down south as I have done. I don't pay any attention to the polls, opinions and all that rubbish, I prefer to listen to people and that's why I am certain it won't be a majority for the Conservatives.

Politicians should be seen by their actions, not heard. None answer questions, it's always deflecting when I think the majority of the nation would much rather it was told as it is whether it's good news or bad news.

I really want to vote Labour (not Corbyn, although I do like him) but honestly, I don't know who to vote for because I don't know who to believe.

Flintshire, my area, was the first to get Universal Credit, our NHS is run by Labour, I worked in care, I've had to sign on, on and off over the years. Things like the bedroom tax fucked so many of us, obviously my own mental health challenges and the lack of support, facilities. I just feel really bitter at times because I feel our generation got royally screwed.

Watching QT yesterday about buying houses and electric cars etc and it's a fantasy, most struggle to even feed themselves for the month.

[phonics]

https://i.redd.it/2lqelftdzs341.png

lol

[Smjffy]

Probably couldn't find a second point that reflected well tbf.

[Shindig]

"Voting Tory gets Labour in here." says our local Lib Dem candidate. :cab:

[Lewis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkJvnPAuv0

[niko_cee]

:D

Should have kept going into what I assume was the press corps.

[phonics]

That CCHQ one where they parody Love Actually and Boris turns up playing the character who is secretly trying to shag his mates wife seems a bit...

[Ian]

That's very on brand that the words "Get Brexit Done" themselves are BREAKING THE GRIDLOCK given that seems to be the entire Tory strategy.

Well, that and Boris saying OVEN READY a lot.

[Yevrah]

Ok, that is brilliant. He's manifestly awful so it undermines it somewhat, but it's still brilliant.

[niko_cee]

The Jon Ashworth quotes are quite funny.

Many a true word said in jest and all that.

[Lewis]

The idea that he would MIND GAME his [supposed] friend with specifics is lol as well.

[Pepe]

What shifter on that bad boy?

[Jimmy Floyd]

We should have a dedicated gearbox thread. I'm am engine guy but I'll read.

[Boydy]

1204444948088721408

The article in question:
BBC News - General election 2019: Ads are 'indecent, dishonest and untruthful'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50726500

[Disco]

Got to blame the defeat on something.

[mugbull]

That is and has been since at least the 90s the fundamental difference between liberal and conservative political parties in the West. The conservatives lie often and are unashamed about it. The liberals still have shame. It’s also the reason why conservatives are better “lol trolls” than liberals

[Yevrah]

I mean that article has a graph that shows the Lib Dems as being the worst offenders within the 31 ads cited. And lol at 0% of Labour ads being misleading, that article again cites 4.

In any case all lying should be absolutely unacceptable and stamped out.

It reached a nadir for me with this shitshow from the tories at around 5 minutes in:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpcY6HsGmAM

Absolutely ridiculous and simply shouldn't be allowed.

[Lewis]

How are '0% of Labour ads' misleading when their entire campaign is based the government planning to sell the health service to Donald Trump?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Was going to say, that tweet itself being misleading is a bit of an issue.

[niko_cee]

Labour do their dirty work through the twittersphere, which doesn't count as advertising as per that article's metric.

I'm torn over all the online focus. On the one hand, I don't have to see any of it, which is nice (no new labour new danger for me), but on the other there's just so much shit they come out with that you can tell 'plays well' in some way or other (oven fucking ready) and it's just infuriating to have to be exposed to. Like the conservatives sudden desire to apologise immediately for everything, which I assume was originally aimed at juxtaposing Corbyn's dogged refusal to do so over the whole antisemitism fiasco.

[mugbull]

I mean that article has a graph that shows the Lib Dems as being the worst offenders within the 31 ads cited. And lol at 0% of Labour ads being misleading, that article again cites 4.

In any case all lying should be absolutely unacceptable and stamped out.

It reached a nadir for me with this shitshow from the tories at around 5 minutes in:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpcY6HsGmAM

Absolutely ridiculous and simply shouldn't be allowed.

The far left parties definitely resort to similar tactics in their bids to become relevant

[Lewis]

1204511606027276288

If anyone still needed convincing.

[-james-]

The latest YouGov poll. :drool:

[Smjffy]

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1204534050184024064

I don't know how to embed the Twitter ones but yeah.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They needed it to be down to 0 by now, 28 is way too far gone.

[Lewis]

It'll be fine.

[Yevrah]

Honestly, Boris is fisting this. People don't like being lied to and there's an increasing perception/awareness that he's doing so.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Pretty much everything that has happened in the campaign has been irrelevant noise. The only two things that mattered were 1) Farage standing half his candidates down, and 2) the Lib Dems being utterly useless. Those two things have given the Tories and Labour the ability to smash through the smaller party votes, and then it comes down to the Con/Lab marginals in the midlands and north. Unless Labour have a truly outstanding day specifically in that area (their city votes piling up are irrelevant), they will not do enough to prevent the majority.

Farage is still going to cost the Tories maybe 5 seats, so they will hope they have enough in hand for that not to matter.

[Yevrah]

Don't get me wrong, Labour are so spectacularly useless that it most likely won't matter, but the whole thing has been awful, absolutely awful. From all sides.

[Baz]

We having a new “who you voting?” thread tomoz?

I mean this one is still called 2017

[Giggles]

Isn't everyone just voting the same as they did last time (and always did)?

[Giggles]

I mean that article has a graph that shows the Lib Dems as being the worst offenders within the 31 ads cited. And lol at 0% of Labour ads being misleading, that article again cites 4.

In any case all lying should be absolutely unacceptable and stamped out.

It reached a nadir for me with this shitshow from the tories at around 5 minutes in:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpcY6HsGmAM

Absolutely ridiculous and simply shouldn't be allowed.


Has she a brass neck or is she actually thick as pigshit? Either way it's not good. Hilarious though.

[Dave.]

I have been predicting a 30 - 40 Conservative majority since the start of the campaigns and have seen nothing so far that will change my mind.