The Cricket Thread

[Jimmy Floyd]

In the stupid opinion stakes this series it's been hotly contested between:

- The Root conversion rate saga
- WHY DON'T WE PICK OUR QUICK BOWLERS (clue: they are shit)
- 'Moeen Ali isn't getting any turn, why don't we pick a specialist spinner instead'
- That 48 hour period when everyone decided Mark Wood was the panacea, before he played in a warm up game and the thought receded
- Drop Cook now / Cook coming to the end
- Blaming batsmen for scoring loads of runs then getting out (linked to the Root thing)
- Bring back KP (seen this a ridiculous amount)
- Too many counties / not enough quality (this is always a catch all dreadful argument whenever England lose)
- Why isn't the series on free to air TV (away Tests have NEVER in history been on free to air TV)

[Ian]

Definitely sounds like Malan's fault for only getting 140-whatever. What a bastard.

Is Pietersen even still playing? If so is it just for the Pune Pulverisers or whatever?

[Waffdon]

Just hipsters like me who only watch the more important Series.

What a guy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There was a truly classic Pietersen innings this last summer when he came back and attempted to play some T20s for Surrey. He clearly wasn't fit for the game with a knee injury, but played anyway because I'm pretty sure our marketing department picks the T20 XIs. He came out to bat (against McCullum's Middlesex), completely fucked his knee on the first ball and had to call for a runner, which I think was a seething Jason Roy who'd just been out himself. KP then waddled on for about five balls before being caught in the ring flailing at a short one.

But no, apparently he should still be in England's Test team says about 30% of Twitter. Suppose we could get Gower back in as well.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Random BBC comment with 19 upvotes and 1 downvote:


64. Posted by Yogi on
2 hours ago
If Wood is remotely fit Broad has to be dropped in 4th and 5th tests.

STOP BEING WRONG

[Jimmy Floyd]

These aren't even the moron comments, these are the highly voted ones.


What on earth are our last 6 batsmen up to. Really poor batting. M y 14 year old grandson can bat better than all of them. Always the same story with our tail. No bottle. No support for our two centurions. Typical.
He can't.


Cook out cheaply again. Coming to the end of his career I think. And Moen out for a duck. He is in the team as a batsmen who can bowl spin. Yet he is not getting any spin on the flat wickets, unlike Lyon. If he is not getting any runs either, we might as well bring in a specialist spinner who bats at 11
WHO?


Time to give Broad a rest to see if he can recover his appetite for the game. At the moment he’s like Moeen, cant bat can’t bowl. Eddie Jones wouldn’t keep him in an England side. Seems like some people are undroppable.
Eddie Jones is a RUGBY coach, if he was in charge it would be quite worrying. What would Pep Guardiola do? Have mid off a bit straighter?


Champion bowlers adapt to the conditions they're playing in....unfortunately Anderson on numerous tours to Aus has been not much more than a glorified net bowler...16 Test Matches down under at a bowling average of almost 37 is miles away from being worthy of being called a top class strike bowler.
He's NOT A STRIKE BOWLER, he's a swing and seam prober.


I think Moeen needs to remember what he's in the side for - and it's certainly not just his bowling. For him to get out for 0 after the 2 innings before him is frankly a disgrace. A good 30 or 40 would have made all the difference and could certainly be the difference come day 5.
Jesus.


Where are our options, the occasional leggie, the Graham Gooch type golden arm partnership breakers, do top order batsmen not bowl at all any more??
'Change of bowling from the Nullarbor Dinkum End... James Vince'. That will get the fear into them.


The endless stream of off-pitch stories has created a sense that the players aren't taking it too seriously - which would be tolerable if the on-pitch performances were better. Hence frustration at the players.
Endless stream of... they've been to a bar. TWICE.

[niko_cee]

What would Pep Guardiola do? Have mid off a bit straighter?


:D

He'd probably have the fielders throw the ball between themselves until the batsmen and/or umpires got bored and walked off.

[Kikó]

He'd press high so you'd have 6 slips and the rest around the bat.

Wicket keeper as a fake ball playing keeper.

[Waffdon]

Just hipsters like me who only watch the more important Series.

What a guy.

To add to this, he’s genuinely my first sporting memory. Running home from school to see him smashing 157(?) to take home the series in 2005, arms aloft with that horrific blonde striped hair (obviously copied it though). I think that, alongside the fact he’s clearly one of the most naturally gifted and exciting batsman helps. Attempting and failing his switch shot in high school when it had all it’s controversy :drool:

Monty and Anderson at Cardiff (I think) donning them senseless was also a beautiful moment.

[Jimmy Floyd]

158.

He was a great batsman although he was helped by playing in a lineup which always had top grinders around him (Cook, Trott, Collingwood etc) which allowed him to play the way he did. If he played today he would get volleys for chucking his wicket away, as started to happen in the 13/14 series.

Stokes is quite like him in a lot of ways, different players obviously but same draw. The ECB always waste the flair players, but the ECB are categorically morons from top to bottom so it's no surprise.

[Danny]

Wouldnt he fit right in with this new brand of cricket we play?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I dunno. He's one of those players where the peaks were so good that we probably slightly overrate his overall output in our minds. Statisically he's the almost exact equal in every respect of Ross Taylor, make of that what you will. I mean Ross Taylor's a good player and all, but you know.

If Peak Kevin were in this team I guess he and Root would be the axis and Root would score more and get out less, but lack the spectacular matchwinning 150s that Kevin came up with every 30 games or so.

[niko_cee]

lol

This is what we should have done yesterday.

Very much fucked out of fuck now.

[ItalAussie]

I'm beginning to think that the selectors could call me up for the Melbourne test and I'd put in a match-turning first innings score at this rate.

[ItalAussie]

Random BBC comment with 19 upvotes and 1 downvote:



STOP BEING WRONG

Broad has been basically unthreatening all match, and most of the series to be honest.

[ItalAussie]

I dunno. He's one of those players where the peaks were so good that we probably slightly overrate his overall output in our minds. Statisically he's the almost exact equal in every respect of Ross Taylor, make of that what you will. I mean Ross Taylor's a good player and all, but you know.

I was just the other day commenting that Ross Taylor might be the most underrated player in test cricket. I really rate him.

[niko_cee]

Wood is, genuinely (and somewhat oddly), the least 'threatening' bowler in test history though. He averages nearly 45 in England. :|

[niko_cee]

Holy shit, it's Mitch Marsh who's piling them on.

[ItalAussie]

From Andy Zaltzman:


STAT UPDATE. Mitchell Marsh has scored more 1st-innings runs in this Ashes than Cook & Root combined.

:D

[ItalAussie]

If another wicket goes down before the end of the day, I'd bring in Starc and tell him to have a proper crack at it. He gets out for 12? No worries. But the pitch is flat and true, so he could easily be on 50 off about 30 balls if he comes off.

England's heads have been down since Shaun Marsh started looking settled, even though they were still 150 ahead. There's a mental issue in play here. I reckon they legitimately don't believe they can dismiss Steve Smith.

[Kikó]

We might be able to make Australia bat again.

Only joking.

[Max Power]

Not really much excuse for not drawing this Test. But we all know what’s going to happen.

Ugh I really can’t be arsed with this shit anymore. Wake me up in 20 years when some other Marsh child is 100*.

[niko_cee]

Are there any more Marsh siblings who fancy a test 100?

What's Geoff up to these days?

[Ian]

England's heads have been down since Shaun Marsh started looking settled, even though they were still 150 ahead. There's a mental issue in play here. I reckon they legitimately don't believe they can dismiss Steve Smith.

British sportspeople (notably in team sports, I suppose?) having issues with their mentality is not a surprise.

I was talking to somebody during this series (might have been Cord) about how you can see it even when we're better than Australia. There have been series where if we'd played our best the whole time we could have swept the series or at least won it to nil. As it is Australia always win at least one even when they lose and it's more likely to be 2-1 or 3-1.

Specifically with cricket we're not determined enough in victory or defeat. In the case of the former not determined enough to grind an opponent into the mud and the latter not determined enough to make life difficult for the opposition or find a way to win.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've always thought it's because we're the imperial power, invented all these sports, and don't have that visceral hunger or have anything to prove. Other countries have something to prove.

That said, we aren't the only team Australia have scored 500/4 against on a flat one in recent times. This Test should be a bore draw, the problem is only two of our batting lineup turned up. We are poor at batting.

[ItalAussie]

And your bowlers can't do much if the pitch doesn't give you sideways movement. That's your real problem.

A team can win getting 400 in the first innings if their bowlers can make things happen - it's enough runs.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yeah but we know that coming into the game, so the batsmen need 550 instead of 400 and then hope that scoreboard pressure does part of the job. These are the best bowlers we have.

[Shindig]

I figure with cricket, there's a ton of time to think which, if you're already in that frame of mind, must be harrowing.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You're spot on - cricketers have a disproportionately high level of mental illness/suicide.

On the other hand you get amazing friendships out of it.

[ItalAussie]

Yeah but we know that coming into the game, so the batsmen need 550 instead of 400 and then hope that scoreboard pressure does part of the job. These are the best bowlers we have.
Presumably you should be training your bowlers to deal with away conditions, rather than letting them rely solely on a style that gets them as far as the English channel.

It's not like it can't be done. Flintoff was a real handful on pitches with bounce, and I feel like Broad at least should have the tools to do the same.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Labelling all overseas pitches the same is not right though, we won easily in South Africa two years ago knocking them over repeatedly. Australian pitches are the flattest in the world, Broad and Anderson are now both past 30 and we don't currently have anyone rapid who is also consistent enough to play Test cricket.

If I were in charge coming into this series, I'd have been a lot more defensively minded than Bayliss is prepared to be - I'd have brought batsmen (such as Rory Burns and Haseeb Hameed) who are prepared to grit it out for hours. In the bowling department, unfortunately we just don't currently have a quick, aggressive bowler like Flintoff or Harmison, or Bob Willis - these things are rare. Remember when Australia couldn't find a top class spinner between Warne and Lyon, because there just wasn't one out there? It's like that.

There are a couple of good ones in the youth ranks at the moment, Saqib Mahmood and George Garton. Sam Curran is also a superb all-rounder who bowls skiddy aggressive left armers. We'll be back but it's just not there at the moment.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Also, I blame the ECB for ruining Steven Finn in their total incompetence in every arena. There's a developing belief that bowlers get slower and worse once they've been into the ECB centre at Loughborough.

[niko_cee]

It's not just movement off the pitch, it's movement in the air as well. It's moved a bit once in this series and Australia were out for fuck all. Why don't their batsmen learn to play the moving ball? Same reason we don't turn out human rocket launchers to wing it down. There are obvious frailties in this England team, but I still reckon you play this series in England and the result is entirely different. Away tours have always been difficult, but I am beginning to wonder if the modern game is exarcebating that to the point where teams are almost completely unable to perform in alien conditions for a sustained period. There is obviously the fact that England have notable absentees (and have also made strange picks). Everyone will look at Stokes, but Roland-Jones was probably the bowler of the summer, and whilst I doubt he would have been supremely effective down under, he'd have been a decent option. A few other injuries in the bowling ranks, added to the fact we don't have a genuine spinner (can't afford to pick one without Stokes in the team in all likelihood - to pick up the 4th seamer spot slack) and it's a bit of a heady mix. Everyone looks at the series we won in Australia, but that was a freak, defined by career-best (defining) performances from a number of players, and the fact Australia rolled out pitches that did stuff (for whatever reason, aside from Brisbane natch).

Mostly we've just played a bit shit as well though. Poor lengths from the bowlers, awful shot selection from many batsmen, and insufficient use from the one major advantage we have had (winning the toss 3 times).

[ItalAussie]

I'm not going to pretend for a moment that we have a barrage of all-condition bowlers by any means, but Lyon learned to bowl on the subcontinent, and it made him an infinitely better bowler. And Starc and Hazelwood have both shown themselves to be perfectly capable in England, at least. I reckon Starc's bowling in particular adapts nicely to English conditions.

International-calibre players should be able to change up their style a little if it isn't working. And Hazelwood shows that rocket pace isn't the only way to get wickets in Australia, too, so it's not just that you came over here with a bunch of medium-pacers who rely on swing but can't swing it here (although that didn't help). But coming on a tour with flat decks without a real spin bowler is an idiotic move - if you don't have a good one, you pick the best you've got, and you trust him to find his feet over time.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Our best one is Moeen Ali.

Taking Mason Crane with clearly no intention of playing him was mental, and our selectors are idiots.

But as far as 'changing up their style' is concerned, what does that actually mean? Bowlers only bowl one way, so you must be referring to the team strategy and plans they bowl to, which is a team decision. As a rule we bowl too short everywhere and we also have a really unhealthy obsession with away Ashes tours requiring some sort of extra aggression. Who was it who won us the series in 10/11, it was Cook and Trott boring the shit out of Australians, and Bresnan boring the shit out of them with the ball 'bowling dry', and they can't cope with it. There's no point trying to fight fire with fire. Bayliss, being Australian himself, massively lacks understanding of this.

[niko_cee]

I guess Cummins must be fairly close to Root in terms of series runs now, and way ahead of Cook.

That probably goes for Vince as well.

Abandon ship.

Why did Australia declare with Paine on 49*?

I don't doubt Australia have the bowlers to do well in England. Not the batsmen though, and that more than levels it up.

I agree the Moeen/Crane thing is difficult. As I said above, I almost feel you have to have Stokes to play Moeen. They can both pick up bowling slack where conditions require, but neither is a specialist. In Australia conditions REQUIRE a spinner who can exercise some control, but without Stokes they can't (or don't feel they can) afford to go in with just 3 seam bowlers (I hesitate to say quicks). It's always harder for an English spinner to do that anyway as Australians tend to play spin much better (well, most of them, at least by comparison to English batsmen). They get away with Moeen in England because the pace bowlers give them control and he can be used more sparingly/situationaly. Take that away and he's being expected to do a job he just isn't up to, but you can't not pick him, because he's a legend.

That stat about England scoring 400 and losing by an innings was telling. Whether it's the aggressive brand or whatever (it probably is) we just struggle when then scoring is heavy. I have long said the best way to beat England is with absolute roads. We never cash in to the same extent as the other team, and then succumb to the fatal scoreboard pressure.

Vince and Malan to 10/11 Brisbane this one . . .

[Jimmy Floyd]

There is one thing I think is often overlooked which is shared by only 2 of the 10 Test nations (now 3 of the 12, I suppose) which is cold weather. It's only us and the Kiwis who play in less than 25 degrees celsius on a regular basis. OK, maybe Hobart and that freak place in Himachal Pradesh, but that's it.

To bat for long periods in scorchingly hot weather and make a career out of it, you need to develop a certain kind of physical concentration which I don't think our players necessarily do.

[niko_cee]

Rain in Perth to save the day.

That truly would be a Christmas miracle. Particularly whilst every other Aussie capital is about 48 degrees.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I see Anderson has inconveniently got his series average down to 26 as well.

[niko_cee]

Aye. Same number of wickets and at a better average than Hazlewood, and way better than Cummins.

Send him home!

[Danny]

Apparently Broad had 5 wickets at 61. Thats legitimately 5 more than I remember.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I reckon Broad will decline before Anderson. I'm not convinced Jimmy doesn't have 600 wickets in him.

[niko_cee]

If this test was being played in England, with the weather forecast as it is, there is almost no chance there would be a result. I don't imagine that will hold for there, but it's a good source of hope.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They'll only need an hour to do us in.

A weather escape here and then a Boxing Day rally to put the panic in them would be on the funny side, I must admit.

[ItalAussie]

Why did Australia declare with Paine on 49*?
Ninth wicket fell, and they decided to spare Hazelwood the bother.

[ItalAussie]

That stat about England scoring 400 and losing by an innings was telling. Whether it's the aggressive brand or whatever (it probably is) we just struggle when then scoring is heavy. I have long said the best way to beat England is with absolute roads. We never cash in to the same extent as the other team, and then succumb to the fatal scoreboard pressure.
I still think the problem is your bowlers, not your batsmen. 400 is defensible - even on a road - if you can reliably take wickets.

I read somewhere that you've conceded 500 runs in an innings eight times since about 2012, and not once in the eight years preceding. Or something like that. Either way, you're conceding more big scores now than you were before.

[niko_cee]

You can't lose 6-35 on a 600 pitch, even if it is the last 6 wickets (nor can you really be 100-4 on the same pitch, although maybe that's an improvement on the 30-3 MO from a few years ago), but yeah, our bowling was better in the preceding 8 years, where we won in Australia and India and pretty much everywhere (although not the UAE or Windies - home of the death roads).

[ItalAussie]

Yep. That 2010-11 tour is the only time your bowlers have managed to come here and look vaguely threatening. You should figure out whatever they did then, and try and replicated it, because it 100% worked.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's not the bowling Ital. It's been the same problem with this side for about five years, or whenever Trott lost it, the batsmen chuck their wickets away and the bowlers get no rest. If anything we're incredibly lucky that Anderson has managed to go on being world class for this long. 400 was an ordinary score on this track and we only got it because 5 and 6 built a partnership and got hundreds. 8 times out of 10 we'd have gone over for 270 there.

You can't just magically create dangerous bowling, but you can ask the batsmen to concentrate.

Stuart Broad is a disgrace by the way and should be batting 11.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yep. That 2010-11 tour is the only time your bowlers have managed to come here and look vaguely threatening. You should figure out whatever they did then, and try and replicated it, because it 100% worked.

What we did then was 'had a world class spinner'. Nothing more nothing less. Same thing you lot have now. In fact I'd say your attack now is better than ours then, in the conditions.

The difference in 10/11 was that Cook and Trott batted you out of the series.

[Ian]

Well this has been an excellent waste of everybody's time.

[Max Power]

368-4 on Day 2 and lose by an innings... amazing

[Jimmy Floyd]

Just for future reference, and further to any shit opinions you may read on Cricket Twitter, this is the root and branch review that should happen (you won't read this anywhere else):

- A lot of people, including the influential ISM crew of Vaughan, Bumble, Buttler etc, seem to want to cut the number of county games because of 'quality over quantity'. This is the most wrong-headed shite going. If you cut the number of counties or games, you are reducing the amount of cricket and cricketers. Why would that be a good thing?

It is the thinking of jock idiots who have cruised from school to county to England to the commentary box on the back of God-given talent - yes, they worked hard but they wouldn't get there without the talent. They don't think about the game and therefore cannot see that to find good players you have to INCREASE the size of the pool of cricketers you are looking at and INCREASE the number of games they are playing in so that their worth can be properly assessed. How many people have been lost to the system because retarded coaches at county academies think they are 'soft', or don't 'rate' their bowling action, or think they are too short/fat/quiet/have a dubious lifestyle, or because they happened to nick off in two important games when they were 18?

We need to have just as much county cricket, if not more, and we also need to beef up minor counties cricket and the top end of club cricket. To find great players you need to take cricket to all of the people and INCREASE the amount played and highlight its importance. It's simple numbers. Australia's great strength is the grade cricket system, and in particular its relationship with the states, but you never hear about that in these end of disaster shakedowns, because no one prominent in cricket here understands how or why it works because they have never been involved in the grass roots and have no interest in it.

- I see Steven Finn has taken to the airwaves saying that the 'county grind' hinders pace bowling. What a load of tosh. The last people you should ask about cricket are professional cricketers - they generally don't understand the game and if they do, their interest is in making a living out of it. Generally that means, like the rest of us, they want to be paid a lot more money to do a lot less work.

The most overs bowled by a seamer in the County Championship this year was Kyle Abbott's 415.3 overs, which is 70 overs a month, which is 2-3 overs a day. Most bowl much less. That is not a 'grind'.

- The 'England setup' is a load of absolute wank and has to go. By the 'England setup' I refer to the idea that certain players are 'England cricketers', and others are not. Increasingly, these players seem to be earmarked almost while sucking on their mother's tit, with the 'Lions' and the 'Young Lions' and all this bullshit. Some of them, inevitably, will succeed but what it has developed on the side is a whole pack of tried and tested failures that make up the edges of the Test side - once again we are picking from a tiny pool which has been selected on dubious grounds, grounds that will very rarely have included actual results. There is no room for late developers and there is no chance for those in the pool to go away and improve without it seeming like they have been cast out into the wilderness.

- When it comes to fast bowling, look no further than this: the ECB Fast Bowling Directives. Again this is never brought up because commentators have either never heard of it, or think it is a good idea based on the above bullshit logic. What the Fast Bowling Directives do is basically limit the amount of overs that can be bowled in a spell/day as you're growing up. Currently it is 7 overs in a spell until you're 19, and that drops as you go down the ages until 4 overs at age 13. In theory this is to prevent back injuries but it has zero effect on that as people can still bowl as much as they like in the nets, so what it does in practice is stop young fast bowlers from bowling enough overs in games. I know, right?

- The ECB are megalomaniacs. I say that in the nicest possible way. As an organisation, their mission is to take control of all cricket and particularly the marketing of all cricket. Running a cricket club, I can rarely do anything without having to pass a number of ECB checks and sign ECB forms, and follow ECB regulations, which are often for things well outside their jurisdiction. All cricket in this country exists under the ECB's iron fist and worse still, they've decided that the best way to run things is to pack it with Australians, from the England coach, to the marketing people, to the participation manager and many more. Why? Because we have a massive inferiority complex about Australia.

- Which brings me back to Australia. Australia should not be copied. Australia has six states, five large population centres with bustling sporting culture in each, and other than that it's a load of flies, bush fires and pokies. England, on the other hand, is a green land with very even population spread and football is the game of the cities - cricket is the game of the innumerable towns and villages. Just look at the most recent winners of the national club titles: Wanstead & Snaresbrook, South Northumberland, Blackheath, Sandiacre Town, Kibworth. The ECB refuse to acknowledge this because they are all marketing men and marketing orthodoxy tells you that there is more money to be made in cities. They should really be ploughing money into the towns and villages (in both first class and minor counties), creating uniformly great cricket facilities, training up coaches etc and then they will have a huge population of cricket people wanting to part with their cash. Until they get this right, and they won't, I'm afraid we'll keep on being shit.

[Ian]

Jim's cricket rants. :cool:

I don't know enough about it all to be able to agree or disagree with all of it but the bits I do understand I do agree. That sentence is a riot but you know what I know. "The England setup" in particular.

[Lewis]

Does every Ashes defeat provoke an existential MELTDOWN, or is there something especially shit about this? Weren't we setting ourselves up to dominate a few years ago? Why is the bloke who invented the clockwork radio coaching them?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Every one does, but the last three away defeats have all been absolutely shambolic. That said, the Aussies haven't won here in the last four attempts either.

We were last properly good in summer 2011. Then we went to 'Pakistan', got annihilated and have been varying between shit and alright ever since.

[Dave.]

Just for future reference, and further to any shit opinions you may read on Cricket Twitter, this is the root and branch review that should happen (you won't read this anywhere else):

- A lot of people, including the influential ISM crew of Vaughan, Bumble, Buttler etc, seem to want to cut the number of county games because of 'quality over quantity'. This is the most wrong-headed shite going. If you cut the number of counties or games, you are reducing the amount of cricket and cricketers. Why would that be a good thing?

It is the thinking of jock idiots who have cruised from school to county to England to the commentary box on the back of God-given talent - yes, they worked hard but they wouldn't get there without the talent. They don't think about the game and therefore cannot see that to find good players you have to INCREASE the size of the pool of cricketers you are looking at and INCREASE the number of games they are playing in so that their worth can be properly assessed. How many people have been lost to the system because retarded coaches at county academies think they are 'soft', or don't 'rate' their bowling action, or think they are too short/fat/quiet/have a dubious lifestyle, or because they happened to nick off in two important games when they were 18?

We need to have just as much county cricket, if not more, and we also need to beef up minor counties cricket and the top end of club cricket. To find great players you need to take cricket to all of the people and INCREASE the amount played and highlight its importance. It's simple numbers. Australia's great strength is the grade cricket system, and in particular its relationship with the states, but you never hear about that in these end of disaster shakedowns, because no one prominent in cricket here understands how or why it works because they have never been involved in the grass roots and have no interest in it.

- I see Steven Finn has taken to the airwaves saying that the 'county grind' hinders pace bowling. What a load of tosh. The last people you should ask about cricket are professional cricketers - they generally don't understand the game and if they do, their interest is in making a living out of it. Generally that means, like the rest of us, they want to be paid a lot more money to do a lot less work.

The most overs bowled by a seamer in the County Championship this year was Kyle Abbott's 415.3 overs, which is 70 overs a month, which is 2-3 overs a day. Most bowl much less. That is not a 'grind'.

- The 'England setup' is a load of absolute wank and has to go. By the 'England setup' I refer to the idea that certain players are 'England cricketers', and others are not. Increasingly, these players seem to be earmarked almost while sucking on their mother's tit, with the 'Lions' and the 'Young Lions' and all this bullshit. Some of them, inevitably, will succeed but what it has developed on the side is a whole pack of tried and tested failures that make up the edges of the Test side - once again we are picking from a tiny pool which has been selected on dubious grounds, grounds that will very rarely have included actual results. There is no room for late developers and there is no chance for those in the pool to go away and improve without it seeming like they have been cast out into the wilderness.

- When it comes to fast bowling, look no further than this: the ECB Fast Bowling Directives. Again this is never brought up because commentators have either never heard of it, or think it is a good idea based on the above bullshit logic. What the Fast Bowling Directives do is basically limit the amount of overs that can be bowled in a spell/day as you're growing up. Currently it is 7 overs in a spell until you're 19, and that drops as you go down the ages until 4 overs at age 13. In theory this is to prevent back injuries but it has zero effect on that as people can still bowl as much as they like in the nets, so what it does in practice is stop young fast bowlers from bowling enough overs in games. I know, right?

- The ECB are megalomaniacs. I say that in the nicest possible way. As an organisation, their mission is to take control of all cricket and particularly the marketing of all cricket. Running a cricket club, I can rarely do anything without having to pass a number of ECB checks and sign ECB forms, and follow ECB regulations, which are often for things well outside their jurisdiction. All cricket in this country exists under the ECB's iron fist and worse still, they've decided that the best way to run things is to pack it with Australians, from the England coach, to the marketing people, to the participation manager and many more. Why? Because we have a massive inferiority complex about Australia.

- Which brings me back to Australia. Australia should not be copied. Australia has six states, five large population centres with bustling sporting culture in each, and other than that it's a load of flies, bush fires and pokies. England, on the other hand, is a green land with very even population spread and football is the game of the cities - cricket is the game of the innumerable towns and villages. Just look at the most recent winners of the national club titles: Wanstead & Snaresbrook, South Northumberland, Blackheath, Sandiacre Town, Kibworth. The ECB refuse to acknowledge this because they are all marketing men and marketing orthodoxy tells you that there is more money to be made in cities. They should really be ploughing money into the towns and villages (in both first class and minor counties), creating uniformly great cricket facilities, training up coaches etc and then they will have a huge population of cricket people wanting to part with their cash. Until they get this right, and they won't, I'm afraid we'll keep on being shit.

Can we archive individual posts? This one needs to be. Absolute quality.:thbup:

[Jimmy Floyd]

I should add that the para about player development is fuelled by having quite a detailed knowledge of what goes on in my county's academy - which players are retained and let go at what ages, the rationale behind these decisions and the nature of the individuals who are put into coaching positions and who are making these decisions. And that is at Surrey, a rich, successful county - christ knows what goes on at the likes of Derbyshire, and christ knows what happens in minor counties.

Just last month I was told about a 16 year old keeper/bat who scored the most runs for three years but was let go at the end of the season because he was too fat.

[Max Power]

Too fat :D

Have a quick glance down the all time run scorers and you see Inzi, Mohammad Yousuf, Tendulkar, Kallis even. Not too many six packs there

[Jimmy Floyd]

Samit Patel probably should have played 30+ Tests and a lot of ODIs. Oh well.

And my Justice for Cozza campaign is still running.

[niko_cee]

Here's a question.

If Steve Smith was English, would he have made it through, and into, the England Setup?

Bizarre technique, really struggled early in his career (I'm sure Bumble said something about him being picket for the quality of his chat), bit of a chubster . . .

I'm inclined to think it's (at least) arguable he wouldn't have.

[Dave.]

Samit Patel probably should have played 30+ Tests and a lot of ODIs. Oh well.

And my Justice for Cozza campaign is still running.

James Taylor should have played way more too, I'm sure he was discarded for long enough because he was too short. Definitely agreed on Samit Patel also, I've always been a fan of his.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Dan Lawrence is the acid test for that. Plays everything wristily to leg side (even more so than Westley), has excellent first class numbers at a very young age, let's see how we waste him. I've already heard at least one adverse whisper from some insider idiot along the lines of 'well Westley failed, so that technique doesn't work at Test level'.

Smith, for all his early career oddities, was always scoring heavily in the Shield I think and that is the best indicator of whether you're going to hack it in Tests, in spite of how many times people use Hick and Ramprakash to try and say that domestic cricket is irrelevant.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think we discarded Westley too soon anyway. There are people who deserve an 'extended run in the side', like Hick and Ramprakash, if they have excellent background evidence that they can score heavily but for whatever reason aren't getting it together at the top level or need more experience. James Vince, on the other hand, regardless of his punchy 50s where no one bats around him, clearly doesn't have it and there is nothing to suggest that he does, other than somebody rubbing one out over a cover drive in the nets.

[Lewis]

Have you thought about writing a proper report?

[niko_cee]

I see Steven Finn has taken to the airwaves saying that the 'county grind' hinders pace bowling. What a load of tosh.

He's a bit of a tragic case isn't he? It's as if he's got Stockholm syndrome.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Have you thought about writing a proper report?

I could do that and become a well-known crank, but I'm too busy running an actual club, with a budget of zero, which takes about a billion hours a year. That said I've been blocked by Michael Vaughan on twitter for several years now, so I have all the MAVERICK credentials I need.

[Lewis]

How did that happen?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I presume it was because I once replied to him CALLING HIM OUT on dishing out unsolicited praise for Chris Wilder, then Northampton manager, because the two share a management company. Vaughan is famous for using his columns and media gigs to big up other sportsmen in the ISM stable (of which he is a shareholder) without declaring his interest.

It's a bit of a shame the 2005 Ashes happened to him, because he's a gigantic cunt.

[Lewis]

That's about the most cricket scandal imaginable.

[Ian]

Can we archive individual posts? This one needs to be. Absolute quality.:thbup:

Might just add it to my initial Jimrage posts (http://www.thethirdhalf.co.uk/showthread.php?64-The-Cricket-Thread&p=5032&viewfull=1#post5032) saved from the old board.

Hoping for a full player-by-player rant at the end of the series too. :nodd:

This is still one of my favourite things:

one day cricket is about big, swinging testicles and unfortunately Ronald's have to be hoovered out of his ginger perineum every morning.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The one above is cold, hard truth, there's no rage in it. Another couple of disasters may trip the alarm although in truth we haven't been as bad as in 13/14.

Also we've only used 12 bloody players.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Quality stuff from Liew in the Indy on Bayliss.


Trevor Bayliss’s press conference, on the other hand, was slightly different. For one thing, it was almost devoid of emotion. Perhaps the England coach is the sort of guy who likes to keep his feelings locked up tight. But then, so is Root under normal circumstances. If Root was the shattered reality show contestant struggling to keep things together on live television, then Bayliss was the British Airways operative telling you that they didn’t personally lose your luggage, and would you please fill out this form and go to the back of the queue.

Any changes for Melbourne? “Haven't given it any thought whatsoever.”

Would Ben Stokes have made any difference to the series? “Hard to say.” Why had so many senior players failed to produce their best cricket at the same time? “I wish I knew. You'd have to ask them.” Why does England struggle to produce express pace bowlers? “I haven't got the answers.”

Might as well have a plant pot in charge.

[Max Power]

Whilst the hands-off, big sun hat, “let the lads get on with it” approach has definitely helped unlock potential in our limited overs cricket. We’ve gone backwards in Tests. Need someone who is more plugged in to the domestic game for a start.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think they're consciously prioritising that in order to be on-brand for 2019, to be honest. I also believe that's why they strongly backed the 10-team bollocks, so we don't get knocked out by Papua New Guinea.

After 2019 they should offer Nasser Hussain whatever it takes and just give him the keys. Not convinced Strauss knows what he's doing.

[Max Power]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21805721/ecb-decade-errors-led-ashes-failure

More fire from Dobell.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why does no one else write stuff like that? Is it because their editors are all taken out for a spiffing lunch by Giles Clarke every so often?

[Disco]

That's easy, they're all just reporters rather than actual journalists or writers.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Any of the columnists in papers could write it, albeit most of them are ghosted celebrity things by Boycott, Bumble etc.

The best thing is when football writers like Martin Samuel or Ollie Holt get a rare cricket brief and spout absolute bobbins for 1,000 words.

[Ian]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/42401187

That's the spirit, Mark.

[ItalAussie]

Smith, for all his early career oddities, was always scoring heavily in the Shield I think and that is the best indicator of whether you're going to hack it in Tests, in spite of how many times people use Hick and Ramprakash to try and say that domestic cricket is irrelevant.
Shield cricket has always been the most reliable way to pick test players. I am 100% in favour of Shield form being the most important thing.

I remember the days when basically everyone in Queensland was on the verge of the national team, so you'd have state matches with Matthew Hayden, Martin Love, Jimmy Maher, Andrew Symonds, Andy Bichel, Michael Kasparowicz, and Ashley Noffke all rolling around wiping the floor with the other states. I once had a chat with Kasper on the boundary rope during a match against South Australia.

[niko_cee]

So Mason Crane is in line for Melbourne it seems.

A quote:


"Jos Buttler, the captain, came up and I ask him 'where do I bowl?' He said 'I dunno!' I felt under pressure there, but I came through it, and that's an experience I can use."

Bantz.

[Jimmy Floyd]

For who, Moeen? What we really need is a shorter batting lineup.

God I dislike Buttler. It might be irrational but then on the other hand, it might not.

[niko_cee]

Overton (injured).

[Jimmy Floyd]

Unless the Boxing Day Test has been moved to Chennai, that doesn't make sense, but then nothing since the day they selected the squad has made sense.

I suppose they could be converting Moeen into a part timer, and going with the four man attack. Geniuses to a man.

[Ian]

Is this going to be another Kerrigan situation?

[Jimmy Floyd]

From what I've seen of Crane, he's very good and has a great deal of potential, but I've no idea what he's doing here. He's taken 75 at 44 in first class cricket.

I don't think it'll be a Kerrigan in terms of mental breakdown, but they could easily load him for 6+ an over if they get on top, without him necessarily doing a lot wrong.

[ItalAussie]

I get that we all like Moeen (he is great), but he's been a total waste of space on this tour so far. That said, if you picked a real spinner in the lineup (although Mason Crane probably isn't that spinner), you could get away with him as a bits-and-pieces player if there's nobody else in the squad pressing for a batting spot.

It reminds me of when we went to India with Steve Smith and Cameron White as our spin bowling options. We got pumped 4-0 in the least surprising result ever.

[ItalAussie]

Excellent drama there. Warner spoons an easy catch on 99 to give Curran his first test wicket. But then it turned out that Curran overstepped, and Warner gets his hundred off the next ball.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Watching the day-night Test between South Africa and Zimbabwe as an antidote to the horrors elsewhere in the southern hemisphere. It's been decent stuff and not as one sided as it could have been. Zimbabwe have got Taylor and Jarvis back, and the latter looks a legitimately decent Test match opening bowler. Cremer's leg spinners also looked potent. Aiden Markram scored a nice hundred and he looks to be the solution to SA's opening problem. Quinton de Kock looks well out of nick but still there at the moment.

The problem is that Zimbabwe, Ireland and Afghanistan aren't going to be in the new Championship so Christ knows where they go from here, but nice to see them getting a decent game here anyway.

[Waffdon]

Much better.

Root will fall for 78 in the morning and the batting will collapse to 320 all out though.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's always brilliant watching the backtracking from pundits when Chef ends his droughts, particularly in this age of Kevin Pietersen being allowed to have terrible opinions.

'England in command' from the BBC though - have they learned nothing in the last 70 years?

[ItalAussie]

We haven't really offered much in the way of inspiring play this test. I wouldn't expect a massive turnaround any time soon.

Zimbabwe though. :(

[Jimmy Floyd]

Facing Morkel and Philander with the pink ball in the evening session at a coastal ground, no ta.

[Kikó]

Lovely score to wake up to but as long as we are behind, there is minimal guarantee that we will go in front. Nice to see Cook "prove his doubters wrong" with a hundred though. Root out for 56.

[Ian]

Cook and Root will be gone inside 5 overs.

I'm feeling generous.

[niko_cee]

Answered his critics and back to his best etc

[Jimmy Floyd]

I love all the stuff flooding twitter about 'Didn't do it when it mattered', etc. You can guarantee the same people would not have been saying it was a meaningless innings if he had nicked off for 5.

His mission in life should be to overtake Tendulkar's run total and we should keep picking him until he's 50 if necessary to achieve that aim (Kapil Dev did that to get the wicket record, so they can't complain).

[Kikó]

Great to see Cook score big. Wasn't too far off with Root either, he just hates three figures.

It's probably difficult to lose this one now but you never know.

[Ian]

We're BACK.

[ItalAussie]

I'm not massively worried, to be honest. Cummins is clearly sick and bowling 10km below his normal pace. Bird is bowling medium pace straight, which isn't wildly productive. Lyon and Hazelwood have had their moments, but they can't do it alone.

Not to take away from the English - you can only beat what's in front of you, and it's hard to begrudge Cook a good innings - but I don't think Australia need to click into panic mode by any stretch of the imagination. I reckon Khawaja may have run into the selection axe though. Even his decent innings in this series have been awful and stuttering.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Well you are 3-0 up in the series, so I don't think panic is on the horizon.

I think if we won a Test it would be a fair reflection though, we've not been anywhere near as bad as 13/14. More at turn of the century levels. I think Australia just have a far better team for the conditions, and Smith is a machine.

[ItalAussie]

Well you are 3-0 up in the series, so I don't think panic is on the horizon.

I think if we won a Test it would be a fair reflection though, we've not been anywhere near as bad as 13/14. More at turn of the century levels. I think Australia just have a far better team for the conditions, and Smith is a machine.
Never underestimate the Australian selectors ability to hit that button again and again.

I agree that I don't think we're a whitewash better than your side, for sure. I think marginally better overall, and massively helped by the conditions. I think England beat us on English grounds, and we'd shade it on neutral territory.

The two teams playing in South African grounds would be a series to remember. Fast and swingy.

[Max Power]

South Africa generally best conditions for cricket imo. Neutral grounds would be interesting Let’s play the fifth test in Dhaka.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If I could devise the ideal five Test series, I think I'd go:

Newlands
Adelaide
Trent Bridge
Galle
Bridgetown

All kinds of conditions and lovely grounds. In fact they should do this for the 'final' of the new Championship.

[ItalAussie]

If I could devise the ideal five Test series, I think I'd go:

Newlands
Adelaide
Trent Bridge
Galle
Bridgetown

All kinds of conditions and lovely grounds. In fact they should do this for the 'final' of the new Championship.

Adelaide's a bit boring. Our best ground is the Gabba, and it's not even close. Any brand of player can find success there, but the player has to be very good at their craft - It generally rewards skill.

Australia has a good record there because we know what to expect, but visiting players haven't flamed out if they're good enough.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Adelaide looks nicer though, and that's the real quiz.

[niko_cee]

Used to look nicer.

I'm quite fond of the SCG as far as Aussie grounds go.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This ball tampering stuff from the strayans is properly embarrassing. 'Slats' on TV trying to claim that Jimmy Anderson has been roughing up the shiny side of the ball, because that would obviously make it swing more. Thick as shit.

[Ian]

Probably an idiot question but why is it okay to muck about with the ball by shining it but not by roughing it up?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Because cricket makes no sense. I guess you could say roughing it up is destruction of the ball, and shining it is preservation of its original characteristics (but only on one side, natch).

[ItalAussie]

Isn't the fact that England are great at getting away with ball-tampering kind of an open secret?

I mean, if they don't catch you, then no foul. But it's no great surprise that the English text commentary was very much of the "of course they aren't tampering, but if they were it should be legal anyway so who cares".

Frankly, we should probably learn from your lot in this regard.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Ravi Bopara used to be boss at it, but I don't think the modern side know how.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Liew on top form again nailing the Barmy Army to a post. He is the best sports writer around at the moment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/ashes/barmy-army-england-cricket-ashes-australia-invasion-unabashed-patriotism-a8134056.html

[Ian]

Malan coming in to bowl. Sounds like it's going well.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Root to Warner, OUT, spanked up in the air, and Warner has had a brainfart!

No, Cricinfo, that's just his usual brain.

[ItalAussie]

Cook gets lots of runs: "Heroic effort of talent and application"

Australia defend out the day: "Disgrace of a pitch - flat as a pancake"

Anyone might imagine that maybe the two events are not wholly independent. Pick one, Cricinfo. You don't get both.

[ItalAussie]

I reckon the test team should probably be:

Warner
Renshaw
S Marsh
Smith
Hanscombe/Bancroft
Maxwell
Paine
Starc
Cummins
Lyon
Hazelwood

I realise that Starc isn't as good a batsman as Cummins, but he can give it a whack and if it doesn't come off, Cummins can put up the shutters. Harsh on Mitch Marsh, who has done little wrong, but I really don't believe he'll sustain his Perth heroics. Any two of Bancroft/Hanscombe/Maxwell would be fine, but I'd trust the latter while the former two are developing a little bit more. Khawaja surely has to be replaced by Hanscombe in the next test.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If we win with this bowling lineup, Australia should hand us back the urn.

[Ian]

I can't find the actual line-up. Are there changes other than Crane for Woakes?

[Jimmy Floyd]

No, so we've got seam from Anderson, Broad and Curran, and spin from Crane and Moeen Ali. The first two will have to become bionic men.

[Ian]

Well, I suppose it could be a laugh at least.

[ItalAussie]

Hazlewood replaces Cummins and has a huge shout for LBW against Cook turned down. I think it pitched outside leg stump but Australia are going to review. I doubt they would have reviewed it for a lesser batsman. It’s certainly hitting the stumps - and replays suggest it pitched in line! Cook is out!
They reviewed it because it was out, you wanker.

EDIT:


That appeal against Cook still doesn’t look particularly convincing to the naked eye. But the pitch map suggested that approximately 50.00001 per cent of the ball pitched in line, which is enough for him to be given out.
Taste the salt.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Old school cricket people still absolutely cannot get their heads around reviews. It's like watching your grandad use a smartphone.

[niko_cee]

James Vince also looked in great touch, but then misjudged a wafty cut shot and nicked off.

:D

[Jimmy Floyd]

Still hearing a lot of 'he looks a good player' about Vince. Yeah and the Titanic looked a good ship.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This is what James Whitaker had to say when the squad was announced:


The selectors are backing James Vince to make an impact on his recall to the Test squad. He is a quality strokeplayer and we believe his game will suit the Australian pitches. His understanding of the England set-up will help him settle into the environment quickly and hit the ground running when we arrive in Perth next month.

Surely Whitaker and Bayliss fired after this tour.

[Ian]

It's a shame that "understanding of the England set-up" is something they care about more than the fact that he chucks his wicket away ever single time.

[Danny]

One of the TMS pundits, I think Ed Smith, was surprisingly frank about him. Saying that he had the skill but has shown nothing between the ears and that if we let him, he would still be wafting away outside his offstump in 5 years time.

[niko_cee]

Backing himself to execute his skills

[Jimmy Floyd]

This stuff about talent and 'he has the skill' is horseshit. First class cricket is meant to filter out the people who 'have the talent' but don't deliver on a regular basis. It succeeds, of course, and then the selectors ignore it.

[Ian]

Off the top of your head (or if you can be arsed to actually look, I know you love this shit) how different do you reckon our XI would be if first class form was actually being given its due and used to look at Test cricket qualities rather than some waft-machine like Vince being picked because Trevor Bayliss score a nice 4 in a T20 once?

[Jimmy Floyd]

My team is probably only two or three players different to what they've got - Rory Burns would be in there, for Vince (Stoneman probably to three), and then I'd stick either Dan Lawrence or Liam Livingstone at five (Malan has done well, so a victory for the hat-wearers there, but I'm not convinced long term). The fourth seamer is tough given injuries to Stoke and TRJ, there are trundlers who stat up in FC who probably couldn't play away Tests (like Jamie Porter), and we're quite poorly stocked at the moment beyond Broad and Anderson. We have three immense talents in Mahmood, Curran jr, and Garton but none of them ready yet. With spin, Mason Crane was an absolutely ridiculous shout and they should have gone for Jack Leach or Ollie Rayner instead - people who know their craft and could have bailed out Moeen three Tests ago. Leach is a bit Kerrigan-y, but still.

My reading of how the current regime selects is they absolutely hate having more than one, how can I say this, defensive player in the lineup. There is a very clear recent pattern of them following this rule right through the system from the Test team (where Cook is the designated defender), to the Lions and even the U19s. The biggest statement of this was when they picked Vince to bat number three because he is a 'strokeplayer', whatever that means. You could see how much they hated the idea of Cook and Hameed opening together in the subcontinent - picked Ben Duckett, a genuinely mental choice, over Hameed initially because they were so resistant to it. I can only imagine that this is coming from Bayliss, because no one else in English cricket thinks in this way.

In short - we should pick the best players and then find a way they can win games, not pick players who fit pre-conceived ideas about what the team should look like.

[Ian]

I dunno what the correct balance would be but as you say, it does feel like we just don't want anybody in there who is, for want of a better word, stodgy. It's like they're so obsessed with the idea of a guy who averages 15 but might score a swish-looking 40 every umpteenth blue moon that it doesn't even occur to them that a guy who isn't spectacular but hangs about and helps build partnerships / others bed in for a score shouldn't be discounted just because they think he's boring.

I've definitely said this before and probably recently in this thread earlier in the series, and maybe I'm doing the Jenningses and Vinces of this world an injustice, but when you watch even the less well regarded Aussie batsmen playing they just fucking want to win. They're desperate to beat us in every match and desperate to grind us into dust and usually do have a player or two who look likely to not score a huge amount of runs but become such an immovable source of frustration for our bowlers that other batsmen end up reaping the rewards at our expense while they themselves work towards a century of their own.

Meanwhile we've got these dead-eyed cunts mooching out and taking up too much of our batting line-up who are permitted to use whatever may be between their ears so little that they get out the same way every single fucking time.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think the biggest difference between the sides is less willpower than concentration. The free-spirit approach has had its benefits to us but we've definitely regressed in the mental discipline side of the game. We're lucky we have Anderson and Broad really, without them we'd be going 600/5 every innings.

[ItalAussie]

I've watched more of this series than I have for years, and I'll tell you that Broad and Anderson have both been way below par. Anderson's numbers are flattered by a decent number of wickets he got after the horse had bolted, and Broad was basically useless for the first three tests. Never at risk of being dropped, because you're not going to find a better replacement, but he was basically a waste of space.

Both obviously excepting the second innings in Adelaide, which, under lights, is a totally different kettle of fish.

Your problem in the competitive tests wasn't your batting (although it didn't help things). It was your inability to take twenty wickets in a match, unless the ball is seaming around under lights. If you can't take wickets, you can't win tests, and you didn't remotely look like taking twenty wickets in Brisbane or Perth. Or Melbourne, for what it's worth, but let's focus on the tests where the series was still competitive.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yeah but if you take them out and put in Jake Ball and Mark Wood, we're getting properly eviscerated as opposed to merely well beaten. If nothing else they keep the scoring rate honest.

[ItalAussie]

Yeah but if you take them out and put in Jake Ball and Mark Wood, we're getting properly eviscerated as opposed to merely well beaten. If nothing else they keep the scoring rate honest.

I just don't know how you could say that based on their actual performances in the first three tests*. Broad in particular was a sigh of relief whenever he came on to bowl, and his numbers go some of the way to reflecting that. Anderson did keep it tight, but in a wholly unthreatening manner.

Despite his lack of threat, Anderson probably kept it tight enough that your comment is fair, but anyone would have been an improvement on Broad at the start of the series. Now, he's clearly good enough that he's been able to pull himself together (after it mattered), but he was genuinely worse* than I have to imagine any vaguely competent replacements would have been while the series was alive.

*Adelaide under lights excepted, etc.

[Dave.]

I just don't know how you could say that based on their actual performances in the first three tests*.

He says it because Jake Ball and Mark Wood are shit, even when compared to an underperforming Broad.

[ItalAussie]

The whole "idiot England setup, selectors, system" idea does fall apart when you consider that the biggest disappointments in the live tests (barring the session in Adelaide under lights, etc.) were Cook, Broad, Anderson (whose numbers are flattered by bags of late wickets after innings had gotten completely away), Moeen (who you have to feel sorry for, but has been equally disappointing with bat and ball), and to a much lesser extent, Root (who did fine enough, but you feel he should be doing better).

Can't complain about the selectors when five automatic selections barely turned up.

[ItalAussie]

He says it because Jake Ball and Mark Wood are shit, even when compared to an underperforming Broad.

Then don't select players who are total rubbish, because as long as they knew vaguely which way to aim the ball, they'd have out-performed Broad.

[Dave.]

Then don't select players who are rubbish, because as long as they knew which way to direct the ball, they'd have out-performed Broad.

There is no one else.

[Dave.]

In any case, I thought Broad bowled okay in the first test match, especially compared to Jake Ball.

[ItalAussie]

There is no one else.

If there's nobody in the entire nation of England who can bowl better than how Broad bowled in the first three tests, then you have bigger problems than the Ashes. Because he was diabolical. Not merely "not up to his usual standards" like Root, or "at least able to do a job" like Anderson, but genuinely unthreatening in every way.

Now, Broad is quality, and has found his feet, and I'm not suggesting for one second that you should have dropped him. But it's revisionist history to claim that he had any positive influence on the outcome of the first three tests (Adelaide, lights, etc.)

[ItalAussie]

I will agree that it's all basically moot, due to England not turning up with a full-time spinner.

And I'll also point out that Australia have absolutely been guilty of similar mistakes in the past, so there's no high horse here. Still, being our front-line spinner on an India tour got Smith into the test side, so there's that. :D

[Jimmy Floyd]

If we want to really butcher the mathematical method and exclude the second innings at Adelaide because it swung around a bit, and butcher it some more to exclude dead rubbers, in the three live Tests (Brisbane, Adelaide Part I, and 'here comes Mitch downdoctor'), Anderson was striking every 93 balls, Broad every 120, and the other seamers (Woakes, Overton, and Ball) every 111 balls.

Meanwhile, Anderson was going at .41 a ball (I like to measure things in balls instead of overs, because I'm a maverick), Broad .47, and the others .57. This gives Broad an average of 56, which is crap but still better than the others who averaged 63 (Anderson is at a cool 38 without his pink ball five-for).

If I then artificially juke the stats to stop excluding times when they bowled well, such as Melbourne and Adelaide Part II, then an even more pro-duo picture emerges.

[ItalAussie]

I'm not cherry-picking data though. We all know why the third session at Adelaide was different. They were basically bowling at Edgbaston.

I'm not saying it wasn't a good session for England, but it's entirely unreflective of how the bowlers performed for the rest of the live matches. I'm absolutely excluding dead rubbers because I think it's important to point out that they found their feet when it didn't matter anymore. That's part of the conclusion, not a fudge.

You can say what you want really, I was watching most of those innings. Neither of them threatened, and Anderson's numbers are deceptive due to the amount of wickets he took after the horse had bolted (again, not bad, but not particularly what he's there for, either). Anderson at best held up an end, and Broad was Jackson Bird levels of entirely unthreatening. That's just the evidence of my own eyes.

[ItalAussie]

Let's remember that, Smith and Warner aside, our batting lineup is rubbish. Nothing should be unthreatening.

[ItalAussie]

I'm not wholly unconvinced that England aren't giving these runs to Khawaja in order to keep him in the side until the return series.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You are though. You're saying wickets only count:

a) when conditions are unfavourable;
b) when the horse hasn't bolted;
c) when there has not been an unassailable lead established by one side in the five-match series.

Even then, however, Broad turned in similar performances to the other seamers (including Chris Woakes, who is pretty good) and taking the first four Tests as a whole, this improves to 'better'. There's absolutely no evidence that we'd be better off without him. And it's all very well going on about eyes but cricket is a game of results, saying someone 'looks unthreatening' is the same as saying James Vince 'looks good'.

[ItalAussie]

I'm not saying they don't count. Clearly the numbers do. But there's a difference between friendlies and the World Cup.

The big players didn't perform when the chips were down. That is precisely when their experience and composure was supposed to give them the most edge. Broad was particularly insipid. I genuinely cannot believe that Joe Anybody from Durhamchester wouldn't have produced at least an comparable performance. Obviously he's miles better than Joe Anybody, and he's started (comparatively) to show that now. But it's too late. If you're going to talk positively about their mental characteristics, then the state of the series is a critical element of the situation.

Again, I'm just talking about the bowling that I watched. When the pressure was on, Anderson was unthreatening and Broad insipid. The only real exception is Adelaide II (already discussed), and even then, an England win was already a wildly unlikely proposition even if they knocked us over for half that total. Both significantly improved once the pressure was off.

This is not a reflection of their skill at all. But you'd expect players with all of that composure and concentration to be at their best under pressure. As it was, Overton was the bowler who emerged with real credit.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm not saying he bowled well, I'm saying having him and his pretty economical insipid stuff there was a lot better for us than having Steve Wide and his wild insipid stuff. Using pure logic, if you replaced Broad with the next best individual in each case we would have taken conceded more runs more quickly, and taken wickets at the same rate or worse (I can't be bothered to remove Woakes from the 'Others' numbers but I think those would be pretty bad).

[ItalAussie]

Just for the record, I know they won't be nearly so tame when we visit for the return leg in a nation of Adelaide II pitches. :D

[ItalAussie]

Also, on a massive sideways tangent, Ricky Ponting turned out to be a very astute and interesting commentator. Might already be one of our best, with Mark Taylor.

Massive, massive bonus points for this, too:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwh5uy7Q69Q

Not helped by the idiot in pink, but Mark Waugh's profound discomfort is hilarious. The best bit is when Ponting hesitates momentarily just before the line about the bookies, and then figures he's already started, so he may as well follow through.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There is only one version of Broad. Like all cricketers, he is human and his performances fluctuate, but selecting Broad is overwhelmingly likely to provide England with a better performance than selecting Replacement.

In fact if you compare Broad to our fourth seamer in each game, let's call him Replacement, you get this:

Broad 10 @ 40, .41 per ball, 99 balls per wicket
Replacement 8 @ 57, .61 per ball, 95 balls per wicket

Now assuming that Replacement is better than those not selected in the team at all, I'd definitely be having Broad ahead of any of them. You can see by the difference in economy rate that over the longer run, his wicket rate is much likelier to improve than is that of Replacement, because as we know, most idiot batsmen don't like 'dot ball pressure'.

We also know this of course because over a long Test career, Broad has excellent results.

[ItalAussie]

Would've been interesting to see how Overton fared in Brisbane, rather than Ball, to be fair.

But yes, Broad certainly has a much, much higher ceiling than Replacement. Much higher.

[Ian]

Regarding willpower vs. concentration, Jimmy, I'm also referring to the fact that while Australia absolutely love to smash us into a bazillion pieces and win a series 5-0 even in home series when the conditions are with us and we are comfortably better we don't have that same desire to ruin them once the series is won.

I do agree with you on the concentration but I think part of that comes back to what you've been saying about Bayliss for ages and his POSITIVE CRICKET which doesn't really encourage the same sort of concentration as an ODI does when you're looking for runs rather than always keeping it in your head that your wicket is incredibly valuable.

Hence all the wickets we're constantly losing to wide trash. What have Cook's wickets been like? He was bad for that for a while but seemed to sort his life out a bit.


Can't complain about the selectors when five automatic selections barely turned up.

The big names have shat the bed too and although they won't be, should be getting held accountable for their own individual performances but some of these criticisms aren't new to this series or some of the individual players in question.

I'm saying all of this having barely had the chance to watch a ball of this so I'm not even armchair-ing.

[Waffdon]

Does Broad not get his wickets in purple patches? He must have got about 6/7 identical wickets in a row in 2015 when Australia were bowled out for about 60.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Regarding willpower vs. concentration, Jimmy, I'm also referring to the fact that while Australia absolutely love to smash us into a bazillion pieces and win a series 5-0 even in home series when the conditions are with us and we are comfortably better we don't have that same desire to ruin them once the series is won.

Dunno. They're generally a bit better than us, all things being equal. Other than a short period from about 2008-2012, and another from Packer until Border in the early 80s, I think Australia have been better than us consistently for almost fifty years. Their cricket culture is better organised, has fewer utter morons in charge on an admin level (I know it sounds strange, Australian readers, but it's true) and the weather is better.

We could/should be as good as them, but we're not going to be until all the marketing cunts get swept out of the ECB.

That reminds me, our new T20, they're not even having any geography in the names apparently. Fucking geniuses, probably cost them a million quid in consultancy fees to go from 'Bristol Thunder' to just 'Thunder'.

[Jimmy Floyd]

For a much better take on this stuff than my toss, pour some fresh and glorious Dobell down your necks: http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21965707/cosmetic-changes-mask-england-deep-structural-flaws

[Ian]

Why on Earth wouldn't you have place names? is that just so if they don't like the gate money in one place they can move it for the next competition?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Presumably it's to avoid the issue of people from Liverpool not wanting to support the Manchester Mad Dogs ('Lancashire' normally solves this problem nicely) but then by the same logic presumably no one at all will support the 'Hamsters' franchise because why should they.

Either that or so they can just tour it around the grounds without any allegiance or concept of home/away, who knows.

[Danny]

Like the NFL without even pretending to have a connection

[Max Power]

India struggling big time at Newlands. Morkel bags Kohli, 27/3.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I thought I heard the sound of newborn lambs leaping around a sunny meadow just then, turns out it was actually Virat Kohli nicking off at Newlands.

They've managed to get Steyn, Morkel, Philander and Rabada all fit at the same time for this one, good luck India.

[Danny]

SA team looking very strong with Steyn fit and AB back

[Jimmy Floyd]

Reckon they have also achieved the amazing distinction, for a Saffer team, of being quite likeable. No more Smith, Kallis or that cabal of angry cunt support seamers they used to have, OR, crucially, Imran Tahir.

Rabada loves a good on-pitch meltdown, but because he looks 12 you still love him for it.

[Blitz]

It was an absolute pleasure to watch AB bat again. It's a bit ridiculous how good he's batting, considering how long he's been out for. That flick over mid wicket was the shit.

Happy about the state of our team, and very excited about Markram. He'll be captain after faf is done. I'm worried about the Hash though, it's really been ages since he scored big and consistently.

Having Steyn back is incredible. He is like poetry in motion, and seeing him run in, is one of my favourite sights in any form of cricket, and having Michael Holding wax lyrical about his stats was a treat to hear.

India are in deep shit, and that makes me happy. How the fuck can a team that played almost exclusively at home, on dustbowls, for like 2 years, rightfully claim to be the best test team? And fuck them for 2015.

I'll try to join the Ashes conversation for a bit, in a bit.
Just a couple thoughts to start off of: What the fuck England. This Aus team isn't close to the 13/14 team, but they've been made to look just as strong. I've enjoyed reading everything Jimmy has posted regarding their broken system, and have also read all related articles on cricinfo.

Then, Steven Smith. Dear god, he is something else. The type of records he keeps on breaking, is staggering. It hurts to say this, cause he is an Aussie, and South Africans are programmed to hate all Aussie sportsmen, but he is the best out there, and I go out of my way to watch him bat.

[Waffdon]

ENgland and their no balls :face:

[ItalAussie]

The always enjoyable blaming of the umpires for England no-ball wickets from the text commentary. Maybe don't overstep, lads.

[ItalAussie]

There's something quite satisfying about an immediate review after no doubt whatsoever which correctly overturns a bad decision. It's what the system should be used for.

[ItalAussie]

Why isn't Adil Rashid still involved in the England team? He seemed alright.

[ItalAussie]

Australia shouldn't be hasty to declare tomorrow, if they don't throw their wickets away. It's going to be a million degrees, and every minute spent in the field is going to be sapping. They should force England to bowl them out - something they've not looked for one minute like doing.

Crane has looked acceptably competent enough, and is doing fantastically for a 20-year old. But some of the commentary has been exaggerating this a little bit, too.

[Blitz]

India have done well to negotiate the first hour, but Rabada has just come in, probably pissed off that he has only bowled 1 out of the first 23 overs. Came steaming in, 145km/h+, bouncers, movement, and got the breakthrough. Ashwin in at 6, lol.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why isn't Adil Rashid still involved in the England team? He seemed alright.

This is a wee bit of a mystery, but either it's more ECB retardedness (probable), or he has a considerable flaw in his makeup (possible).

If you take out Kohli, India aren't that good, are they? Reckon Dhawan, Saha and Rohit are having a laugh being in the Test side. I have a lot of time for Pujara though.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Oh dear, they're going down with all souls here.

[Dave.]

I thought I heard the sound of newborn lambs leaping around a sunny meadow just then, turns out it was actually Virat Kohli nicking off at Newlands.

They've managed to get Steyn, Morkel, Philander and Rabada all fit at the same time for this one, good luck India.

That's an awesome bowling line up. :cool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Dale BACK TO HIS BEST as well, Hardik Pandya looks like he's gone out in front of a firing squad.

[Blitz]

He's been very good this morning. Here's to hoping he can grab a couple before Philander gets carried away.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Big Vern completely unplayable at low to mid 80s lads, 3/19 off 12 must be a scorecard error as he lacks NINETY MILE AN HOUR FIERY PACE.

[Blitz]

The Indians are just prodding against him, which is the last thing you should do. I remember the Aussies on one of the tours attacked him, moved around the crease changing lengths, and then his lack of pace worked against him. He is just slow enough now that the batsmen follow his balls.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Reckon they could go over by an innings here, there's absolutely no way modern players have the resolve to cope with this attack, especially not in a world where Ravi Trashwin bats six.

[Blitz]

Too late to loose by in innings. This quartet has been everything and more than I expected, we've been waiting for a good 3 years for this to happen.

Pujara's whole innings is a testament to how hard batsmen has to work and concentrate. 29 off 92, very well accumulated, and as soon as he lost concentration, he was dismissed.

I hope we bat until the end of tomorrow, and grind them out. Supersport Park and Wanderers are typically even quicker. I'll be making my way down to Supersport Park next Saturday and Sunday :drool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yeah I was thinking follow on was 150 for some reason.

[ItalAussie]

This is a wee bit of a mystery, but either it's more ECB retardedness (probable), or he has a considerable flaw in his makeup (possible).

If you take out Kohli, India aren't that good, are they? Reckon Dhawan, Saha and Rohit are having a laugh being in the Test side. I have a lot of time for Pujara though.

Pujara's great - one of the best going around at the moment. You know we'll never agree on Ashwin (for the record, one of his big strengths is concentration), but he bowled very well here by the looks of his numbers.

Jadeja is even more of a home-pitch hero than Anderson. Is he injured, or just scared?

[ItalAussie]

Presumably the Indians will complain about the other team putting out "greentops", due to other teams having the temerity of bowling quickly at them.

[Ian]

They should force England to bowl them out

I supposed just batting until the next series starts and beginning the first test by declaring on a five-figure score is one way of doing it.

[Blitz]

Needless to say, I'm not happy that we've let Pandya off the hook twice, with regulation chances. The pitch isn't doing much, so I rate we'll put on a good second innings score, and win easy enough. But this has been a frustrating session.

[ItalAussie]

Needless to say, I'm not happy that we've let Pandya off the hook twice, with regulation chances. The pitch isn't doing much, so I rate we'll put on a good second innings score, and win easy enough. But this has been a frustrating session.

It's hard to imagine you won't bowl them out cheaply if necessary in the fourth innings.

[Blitz]

Yeah, we should. Hopefully Steyns heel won't be a problem going forward.

77 run lead is a lot as the pitch has flattened out. Hopefully the openers can do a good job. Neither of them are the type to miss out twice in a game. Same with Amla. At least one of them will score 50+.

[Danny]

http://www.bigbash.com.au/news/kevin-pietersen-big-bash-league-bbl07-last-season-melbourne-stars-renegades/2018-01-06

Love him or hate him Ill miss watching him play

[Blitz]

Does that mean he'll spend more time in the commentary box? That will be a bigger shame than any shit he's caused in his career. Unless he makes a conscious effort to stop the banter and put his ego aside in everything he says.

[Blitz]

Fuck my life, Steyn probably out of the series.
http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=1-21982910

[Jimmy Floyd]

501 for 4 and Mason Crane gets the third new ball.

:drink:

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think Root is actually taking the piss here. Mo and Mase with the new cherry. Come back Chef, and please feel free to declare as late as you like.

[ItalAussie]

Curran's slow ball seems to be almost comically slow. I'm not suggesting that it's easy to play, but it seems so slow that the batsman must have time to readjust after delivery.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He is a great bowler of slower balls in white ball cricket, not in the Dernbach 'ooh variations' sense, but they always seem to genuinely surprise the batsman.

Meanwhile, almost on cue after the stuff I've been spewing about marketing wankers at the ECB recently, here comes CEO Tom Harrison with some wonderful quotes (when asked about our Ashes shambles):


"The health of the game is more than just Ashes series overseas,” Harrison said. “We’ve had record-breaking attendances in domestic and international cricket, changed our governance structure, hosted two global events, won the women’s World Cup and launched a participation initiative for kids. We’ve had a successful entry into the broadcast rights market out of which we have secured the financial future of the game until 2024.”

We are in a process of delivering cricket across three formats. They’re making huge strides across the white-ball game, up to a place where we’re winning 70% or so of our white-ball matches – the ODI side in particular – and the T20 side is making good progress.

He really is a hateful cunt.

[ItalAussie]

The ODI side has been performing well, and there's a World Cup next year. For what it's worth.

Zaltzman pulled out this stat, which is the one I was thinking about when I said the problem is England's bowling, more than their batting:


Assuming Australia score another 16 runs, it will be the 5th time in 15 away Tests since New Year 2016, that England have conceded 600. They conceded 600+ away from home five times between 1955 2015 (none from 1955 to Dec 2003).

Also, if that Marsh run-out is referred to the third umpire, then why even bother pretending that umpires are even able to give run-out decisions anymore? Out by miles.

[ItalAussie]

I think Stoneman is the new England selection who has really tried to do the wrong job. 24 off 24 is a stupid score for an opener to get.

Between Mike Hussey, Matt Hayden, Adam Voges, et al., and now Shaun Marsh, it seems like picking mid-30 batsmen with lots of Shield runs is Australia's best plan. Michael Klinger should get his pads on.

[ItalAussie]

Ooof. Cook doesn't get bowled very often, does he?

[Jimmy Floyd]

The ODI side has been performing well, and there's a World Cup next year. For what it's worth.

Right, and then what?

It's more the idea of mentioning corporate governance and extracting value from the TV rights cycle as a counterbalance to being shit at cricket.

[Ian]

"We’ve had a successful entry into the broadcast rights market out of which we have secured the financial future of the game until 2024.”

Well I know that's the reason I watch sports.

Better than being competitive in the Ashes, that.

[ItalAussie]

Right, and then what?

It's more the idea of mentioning corporate governance and extracting value from the TV rights cycle as a counterbalance to being shit at cricket.
I didn't say it was worth much. It's certainly not worth an Ashes.

[ItalAussie]

"We’ve had a successful entry into the broadcast rights market out of which we have secured the financial future of the game until 2024.”

Well I know that's the reason I watch sports.

Better than being competitive in the Ashes, that.

This is how I felt during peak "net spend". As if watching Benitez carefully manage money was comparable to actually winning things. It pops up a lot from Indian commenters on Cricinfo, a decent number of whom cheer the BCI bottom line as much as any test victory.

[Ian]

I mean if it's not really his job to directly effect the on-field stuff (I've no idea how these hierarchies work) that's fine, but even the usual "we'll have to see what the failings were once the dust has settled" corporate bobbins is better than trying to go "yeah but the ECB are going to rake in some coin so that's got to be good for everybody, eh?"

[Jimmy Floyd]

The problem with him is he has no ideas to try and improve the game, he has no interest in changing structures/getting in different people to see how we can do things differently whether it be at elite level or development level. His entire raison d'etre is 'how much can we rake in from TV rights' and according to my mole at the ECB, the entire organisation runs on the basis that once the city T20 start in 2020, the streets will be paved with gold.

Thing is it's not having money that counts, it's what you do with it.

[niko_cee]

I hadn't realised Vince had coated Hayden off after the first innings in Brisbane.

:D

[Jimmy Floyd]

Joe Root severely dehydrated in hospital. A fitting end to the tour.

[ItalAussie]

It's quite hot out there, sure. Brings back memories of Sharjah in 2002, and Hayden facing down Akhtar in 50 degrees.

Needless to say, England weren't involved, so we didn't need to "have a conversation" about maximum allowable heat for play to occur.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The way Aussies these days are allowed to shapeshift between BOONY DID FIFTY TWO TINNIES, OOOAAAGH MERV THE SWERVE, SPIDERS? THAT'S NOT A KNIFE on the one hand and Awwww now look mate, Stuart Broad should have walked, our CURATORS are FAIR and we bless this land on the other hand is a real disgrace.

[ItalAussie]

The way Aussies these days are allowed to shapeshift between BOONY DID FIFTY TWO TINNIES, OOOAAAGH MERV THE SWERVE, SPIDERS? THAT'S NOT A KNIFE on the one hand and Awwww now look mate, Stuart Broad should have walked, our CURATORS are FAIR and we bless this land on the other hand is a real disgrace.

Nobody actually thinks Stuart Broad should have walked though. That's certifiable.

I do think our grounds are basically fair though, although some of them have become roads in recent years. Don't forget that we spent two decades losing to rampant West Indies sides at the WACA, because it suited them far more than it ever suited us. The lack of swing is more the ball than the grounds, isn't it? At any rate, good sides can give us a run here - India, South Africa, and your lot have all drawn or won series here in the last decade and change.

[ItalAussie]

Just for the record, Root is being an absolute hero out there today. I honestly can't remember meeting anyone - Australian or otherwise - who dislikes Root. He just seems like a really good guy.

Allan Border would probably be giving him a serve right now, of course. But the rest of us can see he's giving everything and then some.


EDIT: Apparently Root's thing is viral, incidentally, and nothing to do with the heat.

[Danny]

Very interesting considering the timing. You just know he is coming back out to have another go once the next wicket falls too.

Dean Jones has been on twitter saying that cricket should be stopped at certain heat temps. I think they should look at it however I think longer breaks and more frequent drinks would be a better option. Maybe even split the day into 6 sessions with 15 minutes in the middle of the current sessions.

Edit: This should also be Jimmy's last innings in Aus. Last chance for that broken fucking arm then?

[ItalAussie]

In fairness, Dean Jones played the best hot weather innings ever, so if anyone can comment.

[ItalAussie]

Root and Cook were inches away from having identical stats in almost every category. :D

JE Root
9 innings
1 not out
378 runs
771 balls
39 fours
0 sixes

AN Cook
9 innings
1 not out
376 runs
748 balls
39 fours
0 sixes

[ItalAussie]

Combined XI, in my opinion:

Warner
Root (it's my team, and I'll do this if I want)
Smith
Malan
Marsh
Marsh
Bairstow
Cummins
Starc
Hazelwood
Lyon

[John Arne]

Moeen :drool:

https://gyazo.com/67a4321c41500d8fdcf07ae187d957da.png

[Jimmy Floyd]

Jimmy averaging under 28 with no swing, on roads, with that dross support cast must be one of the great fruitless efforts in cricket history.

[niko_cee]

The way Aussies these days are allowed to shapeshift between BOONY DID FIFTY TWO TINNIES, OOOAAAGH MERV THE SWERVE, SPIDERS? THAT'S NOT A KNIFE on the one hand and Awwww now look mate, Stuart Broad should have walked, our CURATORS are FAIR and we bless this land on the other hand is a real disgrace.

:D

I Kevin Keegan love how chippy this series has made Ital. It's been a real highlight.

[ItalAussie]

Already noted how Anderson got his average down, but he was certainly economical, and the best of the England bowlers. Great control, as usual, but little penetration.

He'll murder us when he's on pitches that take wickets for him.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Already noted how Anderson got his average down, but he was certainly economical, and the best of the England bowlers. Great control, as usual, but little penetration.

He'll murder us when he's on pitches that take wickets for him.

Also easier for your batsmen to just see him off when there are runs aplenty down the other end.

Mason Crane 1/193. I'm really not sure that was a good idea. In fact, I know it wasn't.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm also disappointed because my main hope for the series, once it had become clear that we'd get battered, was that Steve Smith would get to 333* and declare the innings or leave a straight one.

[ItalAussie]

I don't think they have to do that anymore, post-Hayden. Which is fair.

Crane's got a lot of potential, but he's obviously not there yet. If he has any backbone, he'll learn from this.

[Jimmy Floyd]

208 for India to win, ball doing all sorts. Should be fun.

[Blitz]

I'm sweating bullets. There is no way we should be losing, or even get close, on a pitch like this. Yet, here we are. I'm bleak at our own batting efforts, we were playing balls that really should be left alone when the ball moves around like it does.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You'll piss it, no one lives with this attack, not even the Bestest Player Ever and his increasingly merry men.

[Blitz]

Going better now.

The nerves were more out of frustration than anything.

[Danny]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21984268/india-chase-350-win-cheteshwar-pujara

:happycry:

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's over, not even the great number six batsman Ravi Trashwin (Test batting average just less than that of Rikki Clarke) could save them.

[Dave.]

Philander. :hail:

[Jimmy Floyd]

A veritable tsunami of Indians on cricket twitter in the last two hours declaring the great Vernon to be a green top bully. A joyous sight to behold.

Vern is 18 at home and 27 away, nothing at all like their own hero pie dispenser who is 23 at home and 31 away (34 in England, 55 in Australia, and 66 in South Africa). Of course Vernon has played 23/23 home/away, where for Rav it's 35/21.

[Blitz]

Twitter India also loves to bring up Kohli's home ODI record to prove that he is the GOAT. In all the formats.

Even though we won, our batting was dodgy, you'd expect them to handle these conditions better. I thought the Indians bowled nicely though.

I remember back when Vern made his debut, everyone was like, wtf,, who is this? He then proceeded to dismantle Australia. I'll be honest, for a decent part of his career I couldn't imagine him keeping it up. Here we are, 48 tests later, averaging just a shade under 22. Graeme Smith has given him some criticism regarding his fitness and injury proneness, which I agree with. Other than that, you gotta wonder how he didn't make the team earlier.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Probably because he's a chubby lad who bowls 82mph (or 'mid 130s' as they seem to say in the colonies).

Cricket is terrible for selecting based on irrelevant attributes like 'pace', 'height', 'strokeplay' etc rather than results. You were going through idiots like Charl Langeveldt, Andre Nel et al in that period as well. I reckon somewhere deep in the bowels of CSA there are still people who think Wayne Parnell is a good bowler. Idiots.

[Blitz]

My biggest fear is Parnell getting into our test team again. And I honestly think he is actually in our ODI squad. He must be close to the worst Protea we've ever had on the hype to actual performance scale. I think Nels personality helped keep him in the side. He was a huge crowd favourite. But again, that doesn't win you matches.

I read the beginning an argument on twitter where one guy said he prefers a beautiful 25 from Vince, than a ugly 80 from Ballance. That's insane. I didn't stay for the rest, was scared for my health.

[Max Power]

Love Big Vern.

What;s Kohli series average gonna be friends? And his series average in England this summer?

[Ian]

How did Crane do if you make the obvious comparison against Kerrigan then? I'm sure I asked beforehand whether we thought he'd be that level. And to be fair, me and Cord CONCLUSIVELY proved that statistically he did better with our unquestionable analysis.


Cricket is terrible for selecting based on irrelevant attributes like 'pace', 'height', 'strokeplay' etc rather than results.

Isn't this basically every sport that isn't predominantly American, where stats are the be all and end all once you get to the pros? There are Premier League players earning the better part of seven figures simply for being fast, for example.


I'm also disappointed because my main hope for the series, once it had become clear that we'd get battered, was that Steve Smith would get to 333* and declare the innings or leave a straight one.

I dont get it. :(

[ItalAussie]

Crane managed to not soil himself on the pitch, which is likely more than I could have managed as a 20-year old.

[Ian]

Indeed.

Albeit from a bigger sample size Crane's stats were better and also in much worse conditions / situation than Simple Simon's.

Was there a proper Verdict on Sky or is it basically gone now? I forgot to even check. High Justice Bob would have been excellent value.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I dont get it. :(

334 was Don Bradman's highest score which he achieved at Headingley I think in 1930, and that stood as the highest Australian score for decades. Because of the Don's legendary status in Australian culture, for a long time there was a really bizarre unspoken convention where no one was allowed to score more than that because it's the Don's legendary record. Mark Taylor was famously on 334* overnight and then declared the innings (even though the world record was on the table) in order not to pass Bradman's score. More recently Michael Clarke declared the innings when he was on 329* for the same reason.

In between times, Matthew Hayden had blown through the record with a 380 against Zimbabwe, but because it's Bradman the 334 is still seen as some ghostly untouchable score (apparently).

[Jimmy Floyd]

Isn't this basically every sport that isn't predominantly American, where stats are the be all and end all once you get to the pros? There are Premier League players earning the better part of seven figures simply for being fast, for example.

Yeah but football isn't really a statistical game: big pitch, lots of open space, liberal rules, few scores, and it's very freeform - so the intangibles and possibles and maybes are valuable to a team. You can have excellent players whose contributions are hard to measure using scores. N'golo Kanté comes to mind.

Cricket is purely a statistical game and if you don't produce some form of good scores, at least some of the time, then you are rubbish.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Indeed.

Albeit from a bigger sample size Crane's stats were better and also in much worse conditions / situation than Simple Simon's.

Was there a proper Verdict on Sky or is it basically gone now? I forgot to even check. High Justice Bob would have been excellent value.

Crane is a better bowler than Kerrigan, whose action is very yippy and susceptible to go to pieces under pressure (left arm spinners are very prone to this, for some reason).

It wasn't fair on him to make him play an Ashes Test at the SCG at this point. Looking at the pitch map and reading the reports, he probably got away with a lot of shite. Leg spin is the most difficult thing in cricket and no one has learned it by 20. Even Warne's spell at the very top of his game (he lost the flipper after about 2001) was relatively brief when you compare it to finger spinners who can go on for donkey's years.

[ItalAussie]

334 was Don Bradman's highest score which he achieved at Headingley I think in 1930, and that stood as the highest Australian score for decades. Because of the Don's legendary status in Australian culture, for a long time there was a really bizarre unspoken convention where no one was allowed to score more than that because it's the Don's legendary record. Mark Taylor was famously on 334* overnight and then declared the innings (even though the world record was on the table) in order not to pass Bradman's score. More recently Michael Clarke declared the innings when he was on 329* for the same reason.

In between times, Matthew Hayden had blown through the record with a 380 against Zimbabwe, but because it's Bradman the 334 is still seen as some ghostly untouchable score (apparently).
The story is a little overblown, to be honest. I was watching the Clarke match, and the declaration was fair enough so that we could get India out. The 334 genuinely had nothing to do with it. We were getting a bit antsy that he should have declared earlier to be honest (as you would with a 400+ first innings lead), but apparently they wanted to let Hussey get his 150, and declared immediately after he got it.

Mark Taylor swears blind that he was always planning to declare overnight, but I can't offer anything other than his word on that.

[Ian]

Yeah but football isn't really a statistical game: big pitch, lots of open space, liberal rules, few scores, and it's very freeform - so the intangibles and possibles and maybes are valuable to a team. You can have excellent players whose contributions are hard to measure using scores. N'golo Kanté comes to mind.

I agree, but I do think we're just less inclined towards statistics in that way at the same time. There is an MLS Combine, for example, and combines are basically an attempt to get the things that are normally "gut feel" into a spreadsheet. I imagine it has the Wonderlic test (or something similar) for players invited to the combine, even though there have been some amazing, best-in-the-world type footballers who can barely string a coherent sentence together.

If they didn't already have baseball Americans would probably fucking love cricket. Although if the NFL is anything to go by they're also not keen on players who are statistically good but have crap technique because they fear the technique will cost them in the professional leagues. I wonder who the best player is that an American-run cricket elite would shun because of weird technique that they didn't understand why it worked.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Baseball does that as well, although with them rather than technique it's weird stuff like 'body', and 'makeup' i.e. is he a cunt.

What we do a lot in cricket, because the sample sizes are generally too small, is explain away stats if it suits us to do so - an example is me just upthread working the numbers to dismiss a statistically very good bowler (Ashwin) as a pie thrower because a) it amuses me to do so, and b) he's a fucking pie thrower.

See also: 'It's only county cricket', 'He plays at the Oval', 'GREENTOPS', 'Ah but what did he do when it really counted?' and so on.

Then you have countries doing things differently. In England we are obsessed with orthodox technique. In Australia, they are obsessed with aggression. In Pakistan, they love extremes almost to the point where orthodox players are shunned. And so on.

[ItalAussie]

I do love that cricket has managed to maintain some vestige of 'national styles'.

Reckon S P D Smith would get a game for England?

[Ian]

I was going to say no because he's probably too short to ever make it as a proper batsman but then I learned on Wikipedia that he has an English mother and we do love a player who's only sort of (if that) English so we'd have probably given him a go by default rather than any belief that he was an actual good player.

[ItalAussie]

Tymal Mills is playing in the Big Bash here, and he's doing alright. Quick, too. Was he ever in the frame for England?

[Danny]

Smith would have got a chance as a leggie, failed and never made it back. Hai Scottie Borthwick

[Danny]

Tymal Mills is playing in the Big Bash here, and he's doing alright. Quick, too. Was he ever in the frame for England?

He has a back problem which means he can’t bowl more than the 4 overs.

[niko_cee]

aka the greatest long term injury in sporting history.

Only franchise cricket you say? Well, you're the doctor . . .