The EU Referendum thread - sponsored by Harold's YouTube videos

[Disco]

A great number of people from the world of cosy London creativity that I follow on twitter have had massive spazmaloid seizures. Come on, guys. It's only politics.

I didn't consider it before this morning but it is mildly enjoyable to see the reaction to London not getting it's way just once

[elth]

If Auclair is based in the UK as an EU citizen, he does have a personal interest in the outcome of Britains membership of the EU and the right to freedom of movement and work, to be fair.

[niko_cee]

Hopefully they put Hannan, Carswell and Redwood in charge of the renegotiation.

Can just see old alien head bowling in there next week with a "we'll keep it all but fuck the movement or paying for anything gambit".

[Disco]

Mark Carney almost called it The Bank of Eggland, that would have topped off the morning nicely.

[phonics]

746307297979281408

The look on his face :D

[Jimmy Floyd]

The pound seems to have rallied, or at the very least steadied since business opened today. Certainly against the Euro and also against the dollar.

[phonics]

It begins:

746315661593423872

HSBC will more than likely follow. So that's the financial sector gone and an inability to hire developers fucked for the creative sector. What are you lot going to have left? Greggs?

edit:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CltVc6WWMAER8qd.jpg:large

[niko_cee]

BNP Paribas' HQ is already in Paris.

:/

[Disco]

If I had a pound for every time various institutions were going to desert 'The City' I'd be able to offer my own robust package of financial support.

[Bartholomert]

746307297979281408

The look on his face :D

Mainstream media selectively promoting its own view of Leave voters shocker.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Paris, the absolute epicentre of European stability.

[Lewis]

As if the Jocks are going to vote to leave Britain. They shat the bed last time because they couldn't use our currency, so they aren't going to stroll into the euro.

[Dquincy]

746307297979281408

The look on his face :D

Mert this one wasn't the bbc.

[Jimmy Floyd]

As if the Jocks are going to vote to leave Britain. They shat the bed last time because they couldn't use our currency, so they aren't going to stroll into the euro.

Quite, the more you think about it the less it makes sense. Doubt they'll even have a referendum.

[Disco]

Nicholas Durgeon has a free run at it though, have Leave not basically rubbished all the economic arguments?

[Lewis]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

:harold:

[Lewis]

lolol independent London is good as well, as if it wouldn't be run straight into the ground by communists and Muslims.

[Disco]

Where's GS in all of this, has he even been on today?

[niko_cee]

When was that petition created? I can't say I particularly understand it - you'd need 60% of the vote and 75% turnout for a result to be legit? You'd, perhaps literally, never get a decision one way or the other.

[Davgooner]

Apparently under 30s turnout was 29%.

Wankers.

[Lewis]

Where's GS in all of this, has he even been on today?

He's preparing a massive essay to finish Boyd off. :drool:

[Henry]

Ironically, sterling has apparently fallen so much that the UK no longer have the 5th largest economy in the world having slipped to 6th...behind France.

[Lee]

Roy will probably still pick him against Iceland.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Football is the big winner (loser) in all this. Sam Allardyce to seize control of the FA and impose 1 foreign player per squad. Coefficient to plunge and the FA Cup to return to being the biggest prize in our national game.

Arsenal to be broken up into several smaller entities.

[Byron]

Apparently under 30s turnout was 29%.

Wankers.

When in doubt, assume the students will let you down. Tossers.

[Bartholomert]

Apparently under 30s turnout was 29%.

Wankers.

I wonder what percentage of the social media posts on the subject they were responsible for though :harold: ?

[7om]

What an absolute shambles social media is this morning. I've seen one comparison of a potential Boris Johnson PM candidacy with the rise of Hitler.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm going to write a long, deathly dull post at some point about this but what's happened is there is a total divide between London and England.

[GS]

Lads.

I didn't think we had a hope of winning, so I'm genuinely surprised.

I'd quite like to see a national government of some description to see through the renegotiation / withdrawal. We won, but 48% of people didn't agree with the decision and you need to bring them on board. Whatever else it is, I do genuinely think it's a win for 'democracy'.


When you try and break it down, I get to this:

Leave
- Tory heartlands
- Labour heartlands, particularly in the post-industrial areas
- The South East and East
- Wales excl. Cardiff
- Coastal areas of Scotland
- Protestant / unionist community in Northern Ireland

Remain
- London
- Scotland (outside the coastal areas)
- Cardiff
- Catholic / nationalist community in Northern Ireland
- Major urban areas, particularly in the north west

In terms of where it was won, the above seems to have proved quite accurate. The big 'swing' was in the Labour heartlands in the north, north east and the midlands. Labour have lost this for the remain side, and this really is the political equivalent of one sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. It's been brewing for years. I reckon they're finished.

[Sam]

So the FTSE is predicted to finish 1pt higher, a first gain since the last week of May.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Surrey voted to Remain. Not sure where this fits into the narrative. Should we declare independence?

[Bartholomert]

Alpha af:

http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1466769787627.png

[Dquincy]

No need, you've just done it in crica 27 words.

[Lewis]

It makes you a member of the out-of-touch elite.

[GS]

I'm just catching up on Twitter from earlier (I didn't look at it all night) and the level of seething is absolutely incredible.

The idea that "the old" have somehow shafted "the young" by refusing to vote the way the latter want them to seems to be particularly prevalent, alongside shouts of SHAME and DISGRACE.

Even if I'd wanted to remain, it would almost have been worth it to see the mask slip with some of these cunts.

[phonics]

So the FTSE is predicted to finish 1pt higher, a first gain since the last week of May.

Because the Bank of England guranteed them another 250 billion if they experience a downturn. Leaving the EU is saving us a bundle.

[phonics]

Alpha af:

http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1466769787627.png

You realise 4chan deletes images after an hour, right?

[Sam]

I'm just catching up on Twitter from earlier (I didn't look at it all night) and the level of seething is absolutely incredible.

The idea that "the old" have somehow shafted "the young" by refusing to vote the way the latter want them to seems to be particularly prevalent, alongside shouts of SHAME and DISGRACE.

Even if I'd wanted to remain, it would almost have been worth it to see the mask slip with some of these cunts.

It's the high and might type despite not voting that are tickling me the most.

[GS]

Because the Bank of England guranteed them another 250 billion if they experience a downturn. Leaving the EU is saving us a bundle.

As they should do. There was always going to be a short-term shock from this, because markets hate uncertainty. The BoE stepping in to provide assurance that the world isn't about to end is what it's there for. The market is trading where it was a few months ago:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CltXtv_WIAA0Bt2.jpg

Yes, there's been a shock. It was inevitable. But if one refused to do anything on the grounds that there might be some market volatility then you'd be completely fucked. To complete the campaign tour of unacceptable analogies, there were no doubt many people in America who advocated the continuation of slavery on the grounds that the economic systems of southern states would be subject to severe shock and stress.

All of this PANIC narrative from the campaign becomes self-fulfilling, really. It was deeply, deeply irresponsible of the remain side to suggest some of the things they did in this area.

[Bartholomert]

You know really Bush is to blame for all of this.

If he hadn't insisted on invading Iraq, Iraq and Syria wouldn't have become destabilized, this wouldn't have created a refugee crisis, if there wasn't a refugee crisis (combined with subsequent dealings with Turkey for visa-free travel) probably on the margin Remain might have won over enough people to come out on top.

#JustLeftistThings

[GS]

It's the high and might type despite not voting that are tickling me the most.

It's your left intellectual liberal elite types again. As if because people haven't voted the correct way, they're somehow evil. There's some fucking extract from an FT article that seems to have appeared about eight times, and it suggests that our pulling out of the EU means that there will be "so many lost opportunities" to live, work, study etc. in 27 other countries. Do they know many people from here going to live in Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, Romania? I doubt it.

[Bartholomert]

I think deep down the psychology has to do with fear and a lack of confidence in being self-sufficient. The EU provided them some sort of emotional security. Srs.

[phonics]

It's your left intellectual liberal elite types again. As if because people haven't voted the correct way, they're somehow evil. There's some fucking extract from an FT article that seems to have appeared about eight times, and it suggests that our pulling out of the EU means that there will be "so many lost opportunities" to live, work, study etc. in 27 other countries. Do they know many people from here going to live in Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, Romania? I doubt it.

I know of at least seven. Then if we include the people I know who own property over there the number gets into the 20s. Not saying I'm representative but this was just people I met at Swansea uni.

[GS]

I know of at least seven. Then if we include the people I know who own property over there the number gets into the 20s. Not saying I'm representative but this was just people I met at Swansea uni.

It's very small for everywhere behind what would have been the iron curtain:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/17496/production/_90028359_eu-chart-tweaked-again.png

Really what they mean is that they can't go and live in the significantly more economically developed areas of western Europe if they fancy it.

[GS]

EDIT: Scrap that, they've corrected their workings.

[Lewis]

746312550598455296

[Bernanke]

746312550598455296

Jesus wept. :D

[Lewis]

By contrast, Hedon centre was like Cocoon earlier. All these old people breathing in freedom on their skateboards and breakdancing.

[Magic]

Albarn. :D

What a sanctimonious prick. Thinks he's fucking Oskar Schindler just because he has hooked up with a refugee Syrian orchestra. Prick.

[Yevrah]

I wonder how many of those people in shock at Glastonbury actually got off their arses and voted?

[Disco]

Don't ask, it'll only make you angry.

In other news the woman at the till in Sainsburys, when I told her I'd been up all night watching the coverage, looked at me like I'd said I was out grooming cub scouts and twisting kittens in half.

[Magic]

Someone made a point earlier on BBC Radio Scotland about "AHA! But it wasn't 52% of the electorate was it?! Ohhhhh no. It was 52% of 72%! That isn't the whole country!"

Imagine that coming from a Scottish Dr Alan Statham. It was a beautiful moment.

[Lewis]

The Lord Ashcroft results (http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/?utm_source=Lord+Ashcroft+Polls&utm_campaign=80ea4229e4-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b70c7aec0a-80ea4229e4-71636377) are interesting. Particularly the main reasons for voting, where sovereignty was the main reason for leaving (immigration second), and where less leavers appear to have bought the Turkey shit than remainers bought into becoming 'isolated'. Who are the deluded cunts now, lads?

[GS]

Apparently under 30s turnout was 29%.

Wankers.

About eight of them, probably. You suspect these are the type of people who didn't know you could postal vote.

Even if we're generous and said that 75% of a 29% turnout voted for remain, you'd still be looking at less than one in four under 30s who actually bothered to go down to the polling station to vote to stay.

The argument that "the old have dragged the young out of Europe" clearly doesn't stack up in this context. If it was that important, the ignorant cunts should turn up and vote then shouldn't they.

[Disco]

The Young screwed The Young.

http://i.imgur.com/GPnuDsN.png

[GS]

The Lord Ashcroft results (http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/?utm_source=Lord+Ashcroft+Polls&utm_campaign=80ea4229e4-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b70c7aec0a-80ea4229e4-71636377) are interesting. Particularly the main reasons for voting, where sovereignty was the main reason for leaving (immigration second), and where less leavers appear to have bought the Turkey shit than remainers bought into becoming 'isolated'. Who are the deluded cunts now, lads?

I was looking at this too. Ultimately the sovereignty issue seems to have been the big vote winner - whether that's in the guise of "making your own laws", "controlling your own borders" or "having little or no choice in further expansion or transfer of power". No doubt there will be many on the remain side who will be determined to try and narrowly define this as "immigration", which would be deeply unfortunate.

[7om]

About eight of them, probably. You suspect these are the type of people who didn't know you could postal vote.

Even if we're generous and said that 75% of a 29% turnout voted for remain, you'd still be looking at less than one in four under 30s who actually bothered to go down to the polling station to vote to stay.

The argument that "the old have dragged the young out of Europe" clearly doesn't stack up in this context. If it was that important, the ignorant cunts should turn up and vote then shouldn't they.

I'm not sure if I saw it on here or Twitter but there was that story floating about that thousands turned up to Glastonbury expecting there to be random polling stations set up for them. If that's the stupidity on display then they're better off not voting anyway.

[Magic]

Lol it's all KICKING OFF BIG TIME on my Facebook, arguments left right and centre. Mostly from the remainists. Anyone who has put up that they are pleased with the result are immediately attacked. Much like the #the45 cunts.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Sounds to me like the continental breakfast types are about to cave in.

:drool:

[GS]

Lol it's all KICKING OFF BIG TIME on my Facebook, arguments left right and centre. Mostly from the remainists. Anyone who has put up that they are pleased with the result are immediately attacked. Much like the #the45 cunts.

There's a post-democratic world developing, where certain sections of the electorate appear to be convinced that the other side must have been conned into voting as they did and are furious as a result.

You only had to look at Tim Farron or Caroline Lucas when they were on the BBC this morning. It was fucking bizarre.

[GS]

The unions have come out in support of Corbyn.

Marvellous.

[Lofty]

I'm at Glastonbury (refuelling the booze at the tent while we speak) and of our group of 4 we are all remain. I voted by proxy, my mates GF voted postal and the other two applied well in advance for postal votes only to never receive them and get fobbed off when querying it. They are regular voters too, not the nobbers questioning pencils.

[7om]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/36620201

More homegrown players = the march to 2022 World Cup glory starts now.

[Lewis]

Sky News sez that the Germans (out of the Holocaust) want to make us an 'associated partner country'. It will be interesting to see how far they go with that, but, even in its weakest form, that is the sort of status that, had they just offered it originally, we would more than likely have voted to stay in. They are shitting themselves. Also:

http://i67.tinypic.com/22kkuc.jpg

:lol:

[GS]

What the fuck does 'associated partner country' status entail?

[Kikó]

We stay in the EU and Boris is PM.

[Lewis]

We'll see, but the point is that they clearly aren't going to act like knobheads to prove a point. In other news, Nick 'Cleggers' Clegg is seething (https://next.ft.com/content/6044d4e8-3a03-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fcommen t_opinion%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct#axzz4CUkryGWI).

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

I'm just catching up on Twitter from earlier (I didn't look at it all night) and the level of seething is absolutely incredible.

The idea that "the old" have somehow shafted "the young" by refusing to vote the way the latter want them to seems to be particularly prevalent, alongside shouts of SHAME and DISGRACE.

Even if I'd wanted to remain, it would almost have been worth it to see the mask slip with some of these cunts.

Does our generation just have a higher proportion of toys-out-the-pram, bitter, bastards?

[Bartholomert]

Sky News sez that the Germans (out of the Holocaust) want to make us an 'associated partner country'. It will be interesting to see how far they go with that, but, even in its weakest form, that is the sort of status that, had they just offered it originally, we would more than likely have voted to stay in. They are shitting themselves. Also:

http://i67.tinypic.com/22kkuc.jpg

:lol:

I think the metaphor in the dating world is not acting like a pussy and standing up to women counterintuitively actually results in you getting way more action and respect / power within your relationships.

[Bartholomert]

There's a post-democratic world developing, where certain sections of the electorate appear to be convinced that the other side must have been conned into voting as they did and are furious as a result.

You only had to look at Tim Farron or Caroline Lucas when they were on the BBC this morning. It was fucking bizarre.

I like this. Did you take this from some article / thesis I could read into?

[7om]

746380355410755584

Jesus.

Dry your eyes and pull yourself together, for fuck sake.

[Magic]

:harold:

[Lewis]

I've just realised that we don't really have anywhere left to go in terms of left-wing seethes. Unless they bring back hanging, this is probably it.

Let's bring back hanging.

[Yevrah]

What do these people think they've actually lost?

It strikes me that the disconnect between the impression they have and the reality is canyon sized.

I was leaning towards leave but as I said last night wasn't convinced, so didn't see it through, but fully expected remain to win anyway and wouldn't have been sobbing into my English breakfast had that transpired to be the case.

[GS]

We'll see, but the point is that they clearly aren't going to act like knobheads to prove a point. In other news, Nick 'Cleggers' Clegg is seething (https://next.ft.com/content/6044d4e8-3a03-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fcommen t_opinion%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct#axzz4CUkryGWI).

30% of Lib Dems voted to leave, according to Ashcroft. Given how pro-EU they are, that's a right laugh.

I think one of the obvious changes post-vote is that the campaign rhetoric falls away. We've voted to leave, these lads have domestic elections coming up where they'd be advocating that they shaft their own industry to prove a point. You can't imagine it would do much for a domestic audience. The concern will always be that they'll be terrified of giving Britain a 'soft landing' in case it emboldens further referenda or Eurosceptic parties, but then if they're going to do that it amounts to nothing more than a distasteful policy of coercion on existing members so fuck them.


Does our generation just have a higher proportion of toys-out-the-pram, bitter, bastards?

Social media becomes an echo chamber for this shite, and reaffirms the bitterness because there's a hoard of people who agree with you. You only need to look at how people are convinced that a Twitter trend is reflective of 'real change', only for said change to be decisively rejected by everybody else when they're exposed to it. See: Corbyn's election and where things are for him now. Exactly as predicted as outside said echo chamber.

I can't comment on how good or otherwise certain newspapers were forty years ago, but you get the impression that papers like the Guardian have taken up the embittered cause with some relish these days. I don't get what they're trying to achieve by constantly making their readership feel like they're quite correct to hold grievances.

[GS]

I like this. Did you take this from some article / thesis I could read into?

It's just my assessment of things over the last few years.

[Yevrah]

It hit peak point with Miband's loss, they simply couldn't understand it.

[GS]

I've just realised that we don't really have anywhere left to go in terms of left-wing seethes. Unless they bring back hanging, this is probably it.

Let's bring back hanging.

I hate banging on about Labour (I really do), but I just don't see what the party exists for right now. Outside your major urban areas where there's a bourgeois liberal viewpoint, what does it have to offer to anybody else? It's routed in Scotland, it refuses to run in Northern Ireland, the Welsh have decisively rejected the official Labour line on the EU and the old Labour heartlands in England are surely facing open 'rebellion' against legacy Labour voting based solely on this.

You can't envisage the old Labour heartlands voting for them again when they're so emphatically dismissed the official party line, which in years past would have been sufficient to bring the vote out alongside a solid ground operation.


What do these people think they've actually lost?

It strikes me that the disconnect between the impression they have and the reality is canyon sized.

I was leaning towards leave but as I said last night wasn't convinced, so didn't see it through, but fully expected remain to win anyway and wouldn't have been sobbing into my English breakfast had that transpired to be the case.

It's somewhat strange. There's no emotional connection to the European Union as an institution, so my assumption (perhaps wrong) is that people think there's going to be economic armageddon and have somewhat bought into the pro-remain argument that a vote to leave is a vote for "Nigel Farage's Britain". They're therefore expecting their friends from outside the UK to be deported within the week.

Anyone with any sense can see that nothing's going to change for at least two and a half years.

[GS]

It hit peak point with Miband's loss, they simply couldn't understand it.

It's more than that. It's the genuine fury that people would vote against, as they see it, their own self-interest. It's not that people didn't vote for Miliband, it's that they went and voted for the Conservatives. There's also this great belief that if you engage non-voters, then you've solved the problem. Not only does it provide a comfort blanket - your message isn't wrong or ill-received, it's just not reaching people - it prevents having to address the real issues.

If you want to see what the great unwashed actually think, just take a look at those who came out yesterday to vote for Brexit when they usually wouldn't bother for a standard general election. They're probably right-wing and naturally UKIP supporters before they'd ever consider voting for a Labour party run by a boring bloke with a beard and a fetish for unilateral nuclear disarmament.

[SvN]

https://www.facebook.com/midlandstoday/videos/10154253730714761/

"It's been the best day of my life today" :D

[Jimmy Floyd]

Jeremy Corbyn is the worst politician in the history of these isles. He's no things to no men.

[Lewis]

The mentality of the English left-wing intelligentsia can be studied in half a dozen weekly and monthly papers. The immediately striking thing about all these papers is their generally negative, querulous attitude, their complete lack at all times of any constructive suggestion. There is little in them except the irresponsible carping of people who have never been and never expect to be in a position of power. Another marked characteristic is the emotional shallowness of people who live in a world of ideas and have little contact with physical reality. Many intellectuals of the Left were flabbily pacifist up to 1935, shrieked for war against Germany in the years 1935-9, and then promptly cooled off when the war started. It is broadly though not precisely true that the people who were most “anti-Fascist” during the Spanish civil war are most defeatist now. And underlying this is the really important fact about so many of the English intelligentsia – their severance from the common culture of the country.

In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box.

That about covers it, and he wrote it in 1941. This is giant kick in the bollocks to their identity.

[GS]

Jeremy Corbyn is the worst politician in the history of these isles. He's no things to no men.

Agreed. The problem, of course, is that they can't get rid of him.


That about covers it, and he wrote it in 1941. This is giant kick in the bollocks to their identity.

That's excellent.

[mikem]

Yevrah

I worked in investment banking (institutional sales) in the City roughly 15 years ago. My email inbox has exploded this morning from former colleagues who think the entire reason for their subset of the industry to exisit in London is gone. Not the entire financial services industry but segments that grew there because of the old forex markets, English language, and ability to be the link between the US and Europe.

No clue if they are right or not - an industry that size is not going to simply vanish, but their clients in the EU can't take the half decade long legal uncertainty. The panic is worse than the crash. It has been published in multiple places so I'll attach the email I got forwarded from someone at JP Morgan along with a "we're fucked." Which may be how a lot of people who don't work with the "local industry" feel.


Britain voted yesterday to begin a new, independent relationship with the European Union. This decision is a seminal moment in European politics and in the history of the United Kingdom. J.P. Morgan has 16,000 employees in the U.K. We are extremely proud of the work they do and our long history in the country. Regardless of today’s outcome, we will maintain a large presence in London, Bournemouth and Scotland, serving local clients as we have for more than 150 years. The framework of the U.K.’s engagement with the EU, including trade agreements, will be negotiated over a period of years. For the moment, we will continue to serve our clients as usual, and our operating model in the U.K. remains the same. In the months ahead, however, we may need to make changes to our European legal entity structure and the location of some roles. While these changes are not certain, we have to be prepared to comply with new laws as we serve our clients around the world. We will always do our best to take care of our people and do the right thing during times of change. We recognize the potential for market volatility over the next few weeks and we are ready to help our clients work through it. As of today, there are no changes to the structure of our clients’ relationships with JPMorgan Chase or their ability to work with our firm, but again this may change in the coming months or years. We are hopeful that policymakers will recognize the immense value created through a continued open economic engagement between the U.K. and EU members. As negotiations offer more clarity over the coming months, we will communicate with you and with our clients regarding any relevant changes. Jamie Dimon, Daniel Pinto, Mary Erdoes

[Magic]

Tl;dr MASSIVE REDUNDANCIES.

[niko_cee]

Orwell was a bit good.

Airstrip One.

:cool:

I assume there must have been things he was wrong about as well.

[Lewis]

Jon Snow is having a MELTDOWN on Channel 4.

[GS]

Jon Snow is having a MELTDOWN on Channel 4.

The state of his Twitter timeline: https://twitter.com/jonsnowC4

[Charlie]

It seems like my entire Facebook friend list, including people from on here, are completely deluded about what this vote was about.

The amount of 'we will welcome foreigners in my house' and calls for protests and riots is pathetic.

Young people in Britain really are shites, and have lost touch with the real world. All incredibly bigoted without knowing it, demanding to reverse a democratic decision because it didn't go the way they wanted it to.

I'm pleased we left and I'm looking forward to the future.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Tl;dr MASSIVE REDUNDANCIES.

What are the best bits from your timeline?

[Lewis]

Now then, Molton.

[Charlie]

Hallo

[Spoonsky]

https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-declare-london-independent-from-the-uk-and-apply-to-join-the-eu

Now then, ignoring the rest of it; how exactly would they join the Schengen Zone?

[Spoonsky]

Will you all need new passports now?

[John]

So Scotland votes one way and we get dragged the opposite way ... I hope the "No" voters realize things will never change unless we gain our independence

Posted from Canada. :harold:

[niko_cee]

Will Self on Channel 4 now.

:D

[Lewis]

They need to get him on suicide watch.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This is so good. Everyone I find annoying is in meltdown.

Nothing will even happen ffs.

[niko_cee]

He is the absolute embodiment of the metropolitan liberal intelligentsia. Bad times for him. I wish he wasn't such a prick. I don't look forward to Stewart Lee's reaction.

[niko_cee]

I can also relate to the palpable sense of grief that is now pouring out of the remain side. It is a sad state of affairs, but the grief (and anger) should be aimed at how this has been allowed to happen, rather than the perceived great unwashed who have foisted it upon the chattering classes.

[Lewis]

Peter Hitchens was having the time of his life (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnCvl2T_o5o) earlier.

[Davgooner]

I do wonder what exactly those who voted Leave are actually celebrating tonight.

[Lewis]

Booting all the foreigners out.

[Lewis]

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit

Anyway, lads, if you can find a minute...

[Shindig]

One thing I took from the vote numbers is how much of the populous is ineligible to vote. We fuck too much. Anyway, I've settled a bit. It's done. Could be interesting to see how Boris manages to scramble together a trade situation that looks similar but different.

It will be him, let's be honest. Teresa May ran the Home Office so she'll be shat on for immigration, George is a chancellor and Michael Gove just looks the kind of puppet you scare kids with.

[Magic]

What are the best bits from your timeline?


I think a few of my comrades are failing to spot the bigger picture! The Tories are fractured, their leader is about to resign, a possible GE on the horizon, yet the sensibilities emerging from the left are hypothetical ' what nows and woe is me'. Not me!! It's GAME ON!!!!


Can't help but feel terrified about what's to come. Can we all just keep the heid please. No nonsense this weekend (yes, England -and parts of Wales! , I'm talking to you!).



This has only got worse. I can't stand Cameron but him stepping down is the next worst thing! Boris and Trump soon to lead two of the biggest nations in the world. Armageddon has arrived!

That's all I can find just now, my Facebook feed is a pain in the arsehole. There was much better stuff this morning.

[SvN]

Facebook highlights:


Cried when I heard. Gutted.


Heartbroken. But mostly angry. Or mostly disappointed. Or simply disgusted. Utterly disgusted.


Numb.


Well, I'm absolutely gutted in every way about this result. Genuinely, completely, heartbroken that this is what the general populace of the UK decided.


It's not often I feel embarrassed to be British but today I am


Completely speechless. And ashamed.

[Chinny Hill]

Just like to say that NONE of the things#Remain said would pass are going to happen.

1 Obama has stated the UK has gone from the back, to the FRONT of the queue regarding trade.
2. Sterling is at the same rate that it was before the post #remain boom.
3. The FTSE is higher than this time last week.
4. The EU want the UK to be an "Associate Member".
5. The border WILL remain in Calais, despite the wishes of a bitter Calais Mayor.
6. Gideon will NOT enforce his ludicrous porkie of a £30B post #Brexit budget. (By the way, where is he?)
7. BMW, VW and Audi have already lobbied the clown Merkel NOT to impose tariffs on the UK. For obvious reasons.
8. Sinn Fein, SNP, TYPICAL OPPORTUNISM.
9. Thank You Wales.
10. Something none of you will know. EU flags will be removed from ALL buildings in one month. An EU request by the way, but they're not sore losers.

[Shindig]

Not much drama on mine. Just my brother-in-law a bit fearful of the future and a thick Sunderland fan I work with defending her Leave vote as not a vote for bigotry. I'm alright, though. Covered in the job til 2019 and by then, we'll have millions more claiming disability for depression because it's too easy.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Sterling has collapsed. Farage talking about 'our Independence Day'. The far right are ready to sweep in. I think I'll just stay in bed.


We now have an economic crisis, the pound has crashed, no protection for workers holidays, Scotland already talking about another independence vote, the country is now weaker than ever.
All I can do is apologise to my children and to our former European union friends.
Well done for making our country weaker than ever and our voice has now been silenced in Europe. Well done leavers.


You fucking idiots.


Never felt so ashamed by others in my life. The world is a global one now and we just voted to build walls instead of bridges. Oh well, they'll have to find a new slogan to replace 'Make Britain GREAT again' because the top half is about to tell the bottom to fuck right off and the Island of Great Britain will not be politically United anymore. The name Little Britain perhaps?

Probably my four favourite so far.

[Andy]

I feel sick to my stomach.. All you muppets who have never voted in your life, never cared about it before, have now fucked our country for our children's future.. Just because you have one track minds and think this will sort out immigration. Half of you have never even paid taxes in your life yet you sit and moan about drains on this country's funds!! You're fucking idiots. I'm not even meant to voice an opinion because of my job but I just cannot help it. Our future has been decided by a bunch of misinformed, narrow minded fools. What a shit day for "great" Britain.


Bunch of uneducated chavs spitting their dummies out the pram because they didn't bother trying to make something of themselves. I might be biased but that's what I think of a large number of this population. What happens to the benefit system now? Are people going to get these jobs that they say have been stolen from them? Or are they still going to sit back and take the easy route?

Bed wetting mongs everywhere.

Personally I voted remain, was a really hard decision as I'm hugely against the EU but also massively risk averse. Think it will be a good thing overall.

[Shindig]

This is what happens when someone votes for the first time, feels really right about it, only for the majority (however slim) the tell them otherwise.

[GS]

This sort of holier-than-thou reaction from people is quite frightening really, because it betrays the uncomfortable fact that these people only believe democracy is fine when they agree with the outcome.

I'm starting to see more and more why they weren't prepared to acknowledge the issues around sovereignty or the democratic deficit. You only have to look at the reaction of #the45 or #the48 - both would be on the more left-ish end of the spectrum, and there's a consistent reaction running right through the centre of the losing side. I know I go on about this, but it's a fucking strange reaction to take.

It was a democratic referendum. There was a 72% turnout. Your side lost. Just be magnanimous, for fuck sake.

[Magic]

This sort of holier-than-thou reaction from people is quite frightening really, because it betrays the uncomfortable fact that these people only believe democracy is fine when they agree with the outcome.

I'm starting to see more and more why they weren't prepared to acknowledge the issues around sovereignty or the democratic deficit. You only have to look at the reaction of #the45 or #the48 - both would be on the more left-ish end of the spectrum, and there's a consistent reaction running right through the centre of the losing side.

All the morons and 16 year olds that voted for the first time FOR INDEPENDENCE were terrible for this sort of shit. #nevervotingagain #corrupt

[Shindig]

"Forget it, Roddy. It's Chinatoon."

[GS]

All the morons and 16 year olds that voted for the first time FOR INDEPENDENCE were terrible for this sort of shit. #nevervotingagain #corrupt

It's the absolute broad brush approach that they're on the side of the angels and everybody else is fermenting the overthrow of western political civilisation. Yanis Varoufakis has already got an article up on the Guardian suggesting that we're back to the 1930s, so presumably the Greeks are fortifying the northern border against further invasions by the Germans.

There's also this deeply irresponsible article (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/northern-irish-peace-sacrificed-english-nationalism?CMP=share_btn_tw), again in the Guardian, suggesting that the vote is some sort of insult to Ireland. Again the narrative is we were on the side of the angels and you're bringing the world crashing down. I assume Polly Toynbee is currently being cryogenically frozen, so she can be defrosted in a post-Br-reentry world to tell us how right they were the first time round.

[niko_cee]

Boris' dad is absolutely fucked on Channel 4 right now.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've never seen meltdowns like this. I think there's something in social media / the internet convincing people that they're in a comfortable cocoon of agreement that they're not really in. We even all got touched by it on here during the collective wobble a few days out.

[Yevrah]

He must have been awake for about 40 hours by now.

[bruhnaldo]

I have to say given my hate of both Hillary and /The_Donald , I'm at the point I'd rather see a similarly hilarious meltdown if Trump wins, inspired by what I've witnessed on social media over this EUreferendum

[Magic]

The meltdown would be greater. Far greater.

[Reg]

Labour lost this for the remain side, and this really is the political equivalent of one sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. It's been brewing for years. I reckon they're finished.

Alright mate.

[phonics]

746412178094227456

Was reading through this threa and thought I'd check out Jon Snow seething as angry old men are always worth the price of admission. That first bloke... :D

[Shindig]

Barnsley's where all those Muslim sex gangs are based. 'cos they're from Barnsley.

[Magic]

Rovrem m8.

[Lewis]

David Starkey is on Newsnight patronising the lady historian because why not?

[Lewis]

Talking over the tranny as well. Heroic booking.

[7om]

I've started taking pops at people on Facebook. Fuck it, I can't take some of the shit being spewed.

[Gray Fox]

Today was wonderful. It truly was. Seethe left, right and centre. There are a lot of Polish where I work and most were furious. I'd say 80% were refusing to talk to the English because of the vote. 2 even had MELTDOWNs.

It was glorious.

[elth]

I've never seen meltdowns like this. I think there's something in social media / the internet convincing people that they're in a comfortable cocoon of agreement that they're not really in. We even all got touched by it on here during the collective wobble a few days out.

The internet is echo chambers.

It's one of the reasons a place like this is actually genuinely valuable - you get all sorts here, all sorts of of opinions, and it reminds you that not everyone agrees with you.

[elth]

Two other things - Labor supporters voted 65(ish)% remain. Corbyn's a twat, but he didn't lose this. Cameron did.

The muppets on the news saying they're worried and didn't think their vote would count are right. Their vote didn't count, unless there's about 600,000 of them. Which I doubt.

[7om]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

This shit seems to be gaining traction now. Fuck sake.

[Sam]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

This shit seems to be gaining traction now. Fuck sake.

Talk about toys out of the pram.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Two other things - Labor supporters voted 65(ish)% remain. Corbyn's a twat, but he didn't lose this. Cameron did.

The muppets on the news saying they're worried and didn't think their vote would count are right. Their vote didn't count, unless there's about 600,000 of them. Which I doubt.

Corbz did lose it. Labour voters may have voted in but traditional Labour heartlands, to which he does not speak, went massively Leave when in Tony's day they would (to a much greater degree extent) have gone with what their leader told them.

Corbyn's final campaign event on Wednesday was next to a Waitrose, directly outside Guardian HQ in London.

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

This shit seems to be gaining traction now. Fuck sake.

(from twitter) heat map of where people are signing the petition from:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClvoC84XEAAfcRT.jpg:large

:harold:

[Shindig]

Nothing would ever carry if you needed a 75% turnout. And Labour guys can just cool their jets. Their voted counted towards a national total which was smaller than the other one. So it's accounted for. It's not some constituency safety net like a general election. Its over. It's Chinnytown.

[niko_cee]

For all the leftward seethe at the moment (and it is quite amusing) the unwashed seethe will probably be just as significant when the deal the UK ends up signing up to involves a big chunk of free movement (or perhaps when all the forrins don't disappear by next Tuesday).

[Magic]

Lol negotiating access to single market = free movement? Would be hilarious if that happened. The seethe. :drool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

People are no mugs, they'll give it TIME.

I think my favourite of the many, many styles of Islington seethe is: 'Anti-establishment, eh?! Boris ETON Johnson and Nigel BANKER Farage'. Yeah, and the scum voted for their campaign. Deal with it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The great Michael Deacon (pro Remain, as far as I can tell) getting it right in his sketch as far as where the seething should be directed:


On television, interviews were taking place with ashen-looking pro-EU politicians. “Do we really want Nigel Farage to determine the spirit and the future of our country?” asked Tony Blair, fumbling with the bolt on the stable door.

There was also footage of Jeremy Corbyn, wittering pointlessly about something that it would be a waste of your time to read and my time to transcribe. What a non-campaign from a non-leader. Jeremy Corbyn: a man who descends to the big occasion.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Two other things - Labor supporters voted 65(ish)% remain. Corbyn's a twat, but he didn't lose this. Cameron did.

The muppets on the news saying they're worried and didn't think their vote would count are right. Their vote didn't count, unless there's about 600,000 of them. Which I doubt.

To illustrate my point:

http://i.imgur.com/4ltdXan.png

Dan Jarvis campaigned to Remain, with this result:

http://i.imgur.com/gnaw98j.png

[Shindig]

If we tallied this up by local area, Leave would win 68% of them.

[Byron]

Ignoring the Right Wing circlejerk from a few in here (Labour are finished GS? Yeah sure mate, whatever) there are a couple of unavoidable truths here;

Firstly, the Leave campaign one, all this petition bollock about re-running the referendum is properly lol. We're leaving the EU and we'll just need to wait and see how the trade negotiations and whatnot go afterwards. I suspect there will be some fudge that allows the UK to retain single market access but with some limitations on EU immigration, watever noises Juncker is making.

Secondly, Corbyn needs to go. His heart wasn't in this campaign and that's fine if he wanted to Leave, but his leadership in general has been shocking. I voted for him but it's readily apparent he has no clue how to run the Opposition to the Government and is far better as a backbencher along with Skinner, Mann and co. Knife him Tuesday, bring in a swift new election and lets get someone like Jarvis or Umuna in.

[niko_cee]

As regards the punishment envisioned by Claude and Francois, perhaps Angela and co should tell them that Germany, who are going to have to pay for all this in the end, had a €50bn trade deficit with the UK at the last check. That's a big hole to fill if you are having to bail out Greece and the rest at the same time. Trade war. :cool:

[Dquincy]

All of this PANIC narrative from the campaign becomes self-fulfilling, really. It was deeply, deeply irresponsible of the remain side to suggest some of the things they did in this area.
I really don't think either side showered themselves in glory on their campaign trail, so keep the slagging off even please.

Did anyone see that clip of Nigel Farage on the breakfast show with piers morgan? I don't know if Farage is a good mp or a complete charlatan.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

That petition, fuck sake. There would never be an end to referendums with the criteria they've set out just for a start.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Best fb meltdown yet-


People who voted leave what the utter fuck have you done!?? All that "extra money" going to the NHS, yeah?
GULLIBLE, NARROW MINDED, XENOPHOBIC POND SCUM, the lot of you. Remove yourself from my friends list if you're reading this.

:D

[Jimmy Floyd]

I reckon most of my friends voted Remain. Good. I don't give a shit. I have plenty of pretty left wing friends as well. If you mix politics and personal relationships, you are a complete clown.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Ignoring the Right Wing circlejerk from a few in here (Labour are finished GS? Yeah sure mate, whatever) there are a couple of unavoidable truths here;


They probably are unless they do what you say in Point 2, which they can't because there are so many process locks on getting rid of a Labour leader and the trade unions are already swinging behind him.

The best hope of binning him is enough of them electing Umunna on race guilt (for the first time ever I thought he was quite impressive on the results programme).

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

I reckon most of my friends voted Remain. Good. I don't give a shit. I have plenty of pretty left wing friends as well. If you mix politics and personal relationships, you are a complete clown.

It's utterly pathetic but is a concern at how many folk I supposedly know think along those same lines.

[Lewis]

I haven't seen a load of Facebook seething, but somebody was sharing another status about 'guilt by association'. Anjem Choudary voted remain, so...

[Shindig]

The Independent's ran a thing about Cornwall wanting to keep EU funding.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

[GS]

Ignoring the Right Wing circlejerk from a few in here (Labour are finished GS? Yeah sure mate, whatever) there are a couple of unavoidable truths here;

It's a genuine view. They're finished, at least as a party of government which is surely why they exist. They're never going to get the vote back in Scotland, so there's dozens of constituencies they can't win at the next election. They need to sweep up in England and Wales.

In 2015, UKIP came second in many seats in the north and Labour were largely protected because of legacy voting. This campaign has demonstrated a huge gap between the views of the PLP and its base voters in the north (i.e. north of Watford). Jimmy's example is a prime example - Dan Jarvis campaigned for In, Barnsley went hugely for out.

Other examples are:

- Doncaster, where Ed Miliband is one of the MPs and campaigned vigorously for remain - result: 69% Out
- Stoke on Trent, where Tristram Hunt is MP and campaigned for remain - result: 69% Out
- Wakefield, including Yvette Cooper's constituency of Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford - 66% Out

In this vote, the base have completely ignored what the Labour party have told them to do. As Jimmy says, there was a time when Labour could mobilise its base through the unions and a strong sense of identity, but now there are clearly many areas of the country where, on a fundamental issue of 'identity', the Labour party have been diametrically opposed to voters who would have listened to them in the past. They had no credibility or clout on a fundamental issue, and couldn't mobilise the base in any way behind the official party line.

Corbyn was hopeless in the campaign, but even now they're not able to get rid of them. The unions have swung behind him, presumably as part of their continued programme of self-immolation, whilst the structure of leadership elections means he's a) immediately on the ballot paper unless he resigns and b) the membership will just vote for him again. You need him to accept it's finished, and this is someone who seems more interested in fighting for causes he believes in than leading the party to victory. So if he decides to stick about because he wants a vote on trident and so he has a platform for his 'social justice' campaign, Labour don't really have anywhere to go short of a formal break and establishment of a new party.

This is not a 'hysterical' view. Labour are facing an existential crisis, because if they lose heavily across the Midlands, north and north east in the forthcoming general election - eminently possible, given the SNP precedent and the sheer strength of the leave vote in these areas - then they're reliant on their vote in London and other central major urban areas. These areas are voting for them based on the liberal left vote, rather than any sense of identity with Labour as a party for the 'working man' as in decades past. The result of it all is that they simply can't come close to winning an election in any way, shape or form.

We haven't even discussed the potential for boundary changes which could well make it even more difficult for them to establish an electoral 'coalition' to win a majority.

[Shindig]

I just wonder who the personalities are within Labour who can step up and realistically challenge in 2020.

[Chinny Hill]

I just wonder who the personalities are within Labour who can step up and realistically challenge in 2020.

http://cdni.condenast.co.uk/320x480/a_c/019_CUmunna_GQ_21Jan13_rex_b_320x480.jpg

[GS]

Sturgeon is apparently seeking immediate talks with Brussels to "protect Scotland's place in the EU".

It's just a clear example of someone who doesn't understand democracy unless they agree with it. This sort of shite just encourages people to think you can ignore the result of votes you don't like.

[Lofty]

http://cdni.condenast.co.uk/320x480/a_c/019_CUmunna_GQ_21Jan13_rex_b_320x480.jpg

He would be a disaster. Jarvis would be better. Even David Milliband would be better.

[niko_cee]

Sturgeon is apparently seeking immediate talks with Brussels to "protect Scotland's place in the EU".

It's just a clear example of someone who doesn't understand democracy unless they agree with it. This sort of shite just encourages people to think you can ignore the result of votes you don't like.

The best bit is they'll probably just laugh her out of the room.

Although I suppose they do have some tasty fishing grounds and it might serve as a thorn in England's side (it would probably be a benefit unless this new EU Jock nation was also up for a bit of mutually self destructive blockading). 100 years since Jutland etc.

[Byron]

It's a genuine view. They're finished, at least as a party of government which is surely why they exist. They're never going to get the vote back in Scotland, so there's dozens of constituencies they can't win at the next election. They need to sweep up in England and Wales.

In 2015, UKIP came second in many seats in the north and Labour were largely protected because of legacy voting. This campaign has demonstrated a huge gap between the views of the PLP and its base voters in the north (i.e. north of Watford). Jimmy's example is a prime example - Dan Jarvis campaigned for In, Barnsley went hugely for out.

Other examples are:

- Doncaster, where Ed Miliband is one of the MPs and campaigned vigorously for remain - result: 69% Out
- Stoke on Trent, where Tristram Hunt is MP and campaigned for remain - result: 69% Out
- Wakefield, including Yvette Cooper's constituency of Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford - 66% Out

In this vote, the base have completely ignored what the Labour party have told them to do. As Jimmy says, there was a time when Labour could mobilise its base through the unions and a strong sense of identity, but now there are clearly many areas of the country where, on a fundamental issue of 'identity', the Labour party have been diametrically opposed to voters who would have listened to them in the past. They had no credibility or clout on a fundamental issue, and couldn't mobilise the base in any way behind the official party line.

Corbyn was hopeless in the campaign, but even now they're not able to get rid of them. The unions have swung behind him, presumably as part of their continued programme of self-immolation, whilst the structure of leadership elections means he's a) immediately on the ballot paper unless he resigns and b) the membership will just vote for him again. You need him to accept it's finished, and this is someone who seems more interested in fighting for causes he believes in than leading the party to victory. So if he decides to stick about because he wants a vote on trident and so he has a platform for his 'social justice' campaign, Labour don't really have anywhere to go short of a formal break and establishment of a new party.

This is not a 'hysterical' view. Labour are facing an existential crisis, because if they lose heavily across the Midlands, north and north east in the forthcoming general election - eminently possible, given the SNP precedent and the sheer strength of the leave vote in these areas - then they're reliant on their vote in London and other central major urban areas. These areas are voting for them based on the liberal left vote, rather than any sense of identity with Labour as a party for the 'working man' as in decades past. The result of it all is that they simply can't come close to winning an election in any way, shape or form.

We haven't even discussed the potential for boundary changes which could well make it even more difficult for them to establish an electoral 'coalition' to win a majority.

If your view of a political party is a collective that aims for government, then why bother with the Greens, Lib Dems, UKIP, SNP, Plaid Cymru, DUP, UUP? They are all political parties that don't have a chance of attaining overall power within Westminster so by your logic they should bother. Politics is about furthering your aims and while Labour are not in goverment, the threat of their return to power has shifted the Conservatives to the centre-right. It's exactly what Sanders has been doing to Clinton in America and in a sense, both sides won. Clinton gets her nomination and Sanders ensures that the candidate is about as left as they could be while being electable.

This Conservative majority is the first in 24 years and I'm sure many across the land were declaring the Conservatives finished when Blair won in 1997. Indeed they looked hilariously incompentent through the late 90's and early 00's but they re-grouped, shifted themselves to the centre and started to be a threat in 2007/2008 before establishing themselves as the largest party of government.

UKIP are finished at this point, even the right-wing media and Chinny have accepted this. When a single issue party wins on their issue, they effectively cease as a threat and I expect major Kippers will now move to the Conservatives. Tribalism is difficult to shake off and those UKIP voters in 2014 will not suddenly move to the Tories, they'll move to a Labour party that (Corbyn and co. aside) recognises that Immigration is a conversation worth having and not something dirty or racist because they simply don't trust the Tories (regardless of if you think that is correct or not)

[GS]

If your view of a political party is a collective that aims for government, then why bother with the Greens, Lib Dems, UKIP, SNP, Plaid Cymru, DUP, UUP? They are all political parties that don't have a chance of attaining overall power within Westminster so by your logic they should bother. Politics is about furthering your aims and while Labour are not in goverment, the threat of their return to power has shifted the Conservatives to the centre-right. It's exactly what Sanders has been doing to Clinton in America and in a sense, both sides won. Clinton gets her nomination and Sanders ensures that the candidate is about as left as they could be while being electable.

This Conservative majority is the first in 24 years and I'm sure many across the land were declaring the Conservatives finished when Blair won in 1997. Indeed they looked hilariously incompentent through the late 90's and early 00's but they re-grouped, shifted themselves to the centre and started to be a threat in 2007/2008 before establishing themselves as the largest party of government.

UKIP are finished at this point, even the right-wing media and Chinny have accepted this. When a single issue party wins on their issue, they effectively cease as a threat and I expect major Kippers will now move to the Conservatives. Tribalism is difficult to shake off and those UKIP voters in 2014 will not suddenly move to the Tories, they'll move to a Labour party that (Corbyn and co. aside) recognises that Immigration is a conversation worth having and not something dirty or racist because they simply don't trust the Tories (regardless of if you think that is correct or not)

You're relying on those individuals to a return en masse to a party that they have already rejected, that has ignored them for decades and where they've been on the wrong side on a major identity-defining political issue. UKIP may have lost its single issue, but one suspects the party will want to reconstitute itself, perhaps rename itself, and fight for its own issues. Whether they would maintain support in such numbers is, of course, a completely different question.

You're also making the mistake of equating Labour with other political parties. The Northern Irish parties only stand in Northern Ireland, Plaid in Wales, the SNP in Scotland. Labour stands in every constituency outside Northern Ireland and is one of the only two parties that has realistically been able to form a government since the demise of the Liberal Party in the 1910s. It can't be considered to have the same aims as other parties, which are more 'parochial' simply by virtue of the number of seats in which they stand candidates and can expect to be genuinely competitive.

But fundamentally, the gap between the Labour heartlands and the PLP is as vast as it's ever been. Would Chuka Umunna - another London-based MP of the Ed Miliband 'liberal intelligentsia' crowd - really motivate turnout and a return to the fold for Labour voter in the north? Would Dan Jarvis, whose own constituents seem to have completely ignored his campaigning in his area? This is a massive existential challenge for Labour.

[Byron]

It is a massive challenge for Labour don't get me wrong and I do think they have relied on the support of the students, who are notoriously fucking useless at turning out for these elections. I wonder how many of the 1.2m petition signatories actually turned out to vote.

But it is still wrong to assume they are finished based off the last couple of years. It's still far too soon for that.

[five time]

students, who are notoriously fucking useless at turning out for these elections

People often say this, are there statistics regarding students being more apathetic to politics than the rest of the under 25 age group?

[elth]

Corbz did lose it. Labour voters may have voted in but traditional Labour heartlands, to which he does not speak, went massively Leave when in Tony's day they would (to a much greater degree extent) have gone with what their leader told them.

Corbyn's final campaign event on Wednesday was next to a Waitrose, directly outside Guardian HQ in London.

Nonsense. If people don't vote Labour any more, don't consider themselves Labour supporters any more, why on earth would they listen to Corbyn?

He delivered Labour voters to his party's position. The only leader who couldn't deliver his party position is Cameron.

[elth]

43% of Tories voted like Cameron told them to, 65% of Labour voted like Corbyn told them to, but it's Labour who have a disconnected base.

Hehehehe.

[GS]

The Tories have always been very Eurosceptic, going all the way back to Maastricht.

Everybody knew there would be very strong support for Leave in the Tory heartlands, so you could pretty much factor that into your voting models from the off.

The big swing here from initial expectation was the Labour heartlands. There's no avoiding this point.

[Shindig]

Finally had a good Facebook one. Annoyingly from a Leave voter.

"Finally, this country can make things so we don't see MADE IN CHINA, VIETNAM, TURKEY!"

I had to correct him. I really did.

[elth]

Yes, everyone did indeed know that Cameron is a miserable failure deeply out of touch with, and unable to lead, the people who voted for him.

I'm glad that's agreed.

[GS]

You can join the list of 'luvvies' and 'liberals' who are SEETHING, it would seem.

This petition is up at 1.5m signatures now. If they'd been this motivated before the vote then perhaps they'd have won.

[Byron]

You can join the list of 'luvvies' and 'liberals' who are SEETHING, it would seem.

This petition is up at 1.5m signatures now. If they'd been this motivated before the vote then perhaps they'd have won.

If disagreement is seen as SEETHING then boy you must be a hoot at work.

[Shindig]

The only way they can rerun it is if there's some electoral fraud on display. And, no, Farage's NHS bullshit doesn't count.

[Byron]

Agreed. The referendum is done, we move on.

If those petition rules were implemented you'd never get a fucking answer.

[GS]

If disagreement is seen as SEETHING then boy you must be a hoot at work.

I'm being facetious. Without wanting to labour the point (pun intended), the key swing in the leave vote is where it is. Cameron didn't carry his party on this, but the Tory split wasn't unexpected. The Labour split was.

Interestingly, it would seem that 36% of SNP supporters voted to leave. That seems high, alongside 30% of the 10 or so lads who still vote for the Lib Dems.

[Byron]

I'm being facetious. Without wanting to labour the point (pun intended), the key swing in the leave vote is where it is. Cameron didn't carry his party on this, but the Tory split wasn't unexpected. The Labour split was.

Interestingly, it would seem that 36% of SNP supporters voted to leave. That seems high, alongside 30% of the 10 or so lads who still vote for the Lib Dems.

That SNP split is high. Also makes a mockery of Sturgeon's claims that the Independence referendum should be re-run because 'Scotland is being dragged out against it's will'

A line needs to be drawn somewhere. The SNP had all the advantages, a easy villain in the Tories, home field advantage (arf.) and a question tailored to them and they still fucking lost.

[elth]

I'm pretty ok with Britain leaving the EU, as it essentially has zilch impact on me personally and I'm always interested in watching economic experiments. Hope it works out.

And, for the record, I think Corbyn's the least effective major party leader in a Western democracy in my lifetime. He's just not responsible this time, despite having campaigned with all the enthusiasm of week old lettuce.

[GS]

That SNP split is high. Also makes a mockery of Sturgeon's claims that the Independence referendum should be re-run because 'Scotland is being dragged out against it's will'

A line needs to be drawn somewhere. The SNP had all the advantages, a easy villain in the Tories, home field advantage (arf.) and a question tailored to them and they still fucking lost.

This does change the dynamics of the next independence referendum. It'll be a choice between two unions, effectively. I still think the pro-Union side would win that argument, especially if it can be established that the UK is going to perform perfectly fine outside the EU. It'll give the latter time to fall apart in its own time.


I'm pretty ok with Britain leaving the EU, as it essentially has zilch impact on me personally and I'm always interested in watching economic experiments. Hope it works out.

And, for the record, I think Corbyn's the least effective major party leader in a Western democracy in my lifetime. He's just not responsible this time, despite having campaigned with all the enthusiasm of week old lettuce.

It'll be hugely interesting to watch it all happen, certainly.

For the record on my side, I'm blaming the Labour party as a whole. Corbyn bears some responsibility, but he's been there less than a year. This has been a long-standing problem - a series of chips in the windscreen that have finally caused it to crack all over.

[Shindig]

They haven't had genuine leadership in almost a decade. Tony Blair could walk back in like he owned the place.

[niko_cee]

Seeing as every major party (and virtually every political party) were on the side of remain it seems a bit pointless trying to work out who it was wot lost it. How do you even work out voter classification?

[elth]

YouGov and Ashcroft both ran post vote polls which included a question about party voting, and their results are broadly similar.

[Shindig]

It's not a battle fought on party lines. It's hearts and minds. I feel like the majority who voted in this knew for certain how they were going.

[The Merse]

Sturgeon is apparently seeking immediate talks with Brussels to "protect Scotland's place in the EU".

It's just a clear example of someone who doesn't understand democracy unless they agree with it. This sort of shite just encourages people to think you can ignore the result of votes you don't like.

You don't think that the result in Scotland makes it quite clear that she is protecting the democratic wishes of those she represents as FM?

[elth]

Sturgeon should probably wait until there's some evidence that the Scots will put the EU above the UK before she tries running an independent negotiation with the EU, to be fair. No point guaranteeing Scotland's place in the EU only to get another no vote in the inevitable second independence referendum.

[Lewis]

Labour will be fine (or at least no worse off) as long as they accept that we're out of the European Union. If they stand in 2020 wanting to take us back in, as a couple of wankers have suggested, then UKIP will demolish them in their supposed heartlands; but if they just peddle their usual pish as 'making it work for working people' then why would the Doncasters of the world be any more likely to ditch them than last year? It's not like the SNP, who can capitalise on a running grievance, and Jezza, whilst highly unlikely to deliver the sort of seats needed for a majority, is probably more 'in touch' with crap places than that pleb Ed Miliband was.

Speaking of which, I'm flying out tomorrow to seek talks on protecting my interests in Europe.

[GS]

You don't think that the result in Scotland makes it quite clear that she is protecting the democratic wishes of those she represents as FM?

Those same people also voted for Scotland to stay in the UK, and this was a UK-wide referendum.

Until such time as Scotland is independent, she must be guided by Westminster on this - as the democratic wishes of voters in the independence referendum confirmed.

This is without getting into political issues. Why would the Spanish allow Scotland to negotiate when it's still a component part of the UK? It would set a precedent for Catalonian independence, which they want to give no encouragement whatever for.

[GS]

Sturgeon should probably wait until there's some evidence that the Scots will put the EU above the UK before she tries running an independent negotiation with the EU, to be fair. No point guaranteeing Scotland's place in the EU only to get another no vote in the inevitable second independence referendum.

There's also this. There was a poll in Scotland before the vote which suggested that 38% would vote yes in a new referendum if Scotland left, compared to 48% who would vote no. Maybe that would change now it's no longer in the abstract, but when 36% of the SNP vote is also for leave, it suggests there's not going to be a huge landslide towards yes as a result of this.

[Shindig]

Let's be honest, we can keep the Irish and Scottish borders loose as fuck. It's only Dover that matters.

[John]

You don't think that the result in Scotland makes it quite clear that she is protecting the democratic wishes of those she represents as FM?

Less than half the electorate voted to stay. Comfortably the largest group was those who didn't care enough either way to bother voting.

[Lewis]

Somebody needs to sit her down and explain her logic back to her. So you're going to convince ten per cent of the people who chose Britain over Scotland to choose Europe over Britain. Right. Where do you even start?

[GS]

The idea of 'speeded up' membership is clearly not on - again, the Spanish wouldn't allow it to avoid giving succour to Catalonian independence and it would be important to other acceding states that they were seen to be treated fairly. So it's effectively a choice between two unions - one extant for 309 years and the other where you will apply and join through the appropriate channels.

The question for Scotland then becomes whether it's better to be in the UK's new 'single market' or the EU's. Sixty-four percent of Scottish exports go to the UK, compared to less than 15% to the EU. For population, you have half a million UK nationals living in Scotland versus less than a third of that from the EU. There will be far more people living in the rest of the UK from Scotland than in the other 27 member states. You're not even onto the choice between sterling and the euro, or the choice between a British and European identity. On a purely practical level, the UK's single market far exceeds the EU's in terms of importance to the Scottish economy and the Scottish populace.

It's nowhere near a clear and easy sell for the Nats. If anything, this referendum result is a serious problem for them because it takes control of the circumstances out of Sturgeon's hands. She's having to react to circumstance to keep the base happy.

You get the really quite unfortunate impression that for many it boils down to a simple dislike of England, and the determination for independence, even if it be in name only, is fuelled by that anti-English sentiment.

[GS]

Separately, these are the latest turnout statistics:

746700869656256512

36%. That's just tough shit really, isn't it lads.

[Gray Fox]

Separately, these are the latest turnout statistics:

746700869656256512

36%. That's just tough shit really, isn't it lads.

That low below age 34? You're right, tough fucking titties.

[Davgooner]

Separately, these are the latest turnout statistics:

746700869656256512

36%. That's just tough shit really, isn't it lads.

Fucking wankers.

[Byron]

Aye. Someone needs to outright ask these petition wankers if they voted and if they didn't tell them to shut the fuck up.

[Lewis]

lol behind the scenes account (http://www.politico.eu/article/how-david-cameron-lost-brexit-eu-referendum-prime-minister-campaign-remain-boris-craig-oliver-jim-messina-obama/) of the fail campaign. In short, Agent Jezza made a wanker campaign even less effective by refusing to work with the Conservatives, and Boris Johnson donned it.


Stronger In watched in frustration as Leave rose in the polls. "They said they wouldn’t, but their whole fucking campaign has been based on immigration," one staffer said.

:harold:

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

https://s31.postimg.org/a2xpgsc8b/lammy.jpg

[Dquincy]

I voted Remain, but the anger from some is quite amusing.

Either way, near half of the population was always going to be upset with the result as it was so tight. I'm just glad it's over.

Also, Farage said this referendum is a win for the lower/working class. But if (big if) this does edge us towards another recession, that criteria of people will be one of the first to start complaining.

Once the leaving process is well underway, I also hope 'they' take on these jobs/ocupations that the foreigners have apparently been taking and stopping them from working.

[Luke Emia]

https://s31.postimg.org/a2xpgsc8b/lammy.jpg

There are no words...

[Lee]

Lammy is a cunt.

[GS]

He's fucking mental. How does he really think that would end for him.

[GS]

746694000262905856

746699388823683072

:harold:

[Disco]

In the interests of balance should they not also be holding Osborne to his BUDGET OF FEAR?

[Lewis]

It would like to see it managed by a national government, but I don't know whether the numbers would work given all the Conservative bitters.

[Gray Fox]

Petitions on petitions, on petitions right now.

[QE Harold Flair]

The poll results on here are exactly as I would expect. TTH is out of touch with normal people. It's very much in line with London, trendy, hipster feeling. What a heroic effort from the working class people of this great country. Let's hope those threatening to leave will follow through.

Oh, and lol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9tcVBsxK30


Look at the state of the cunt. :happycry:

As for Brexit being held to its promises? How? They are not the government, they are a group of polticians and non politicians fighting the good fight.

[Davgooner]

What a heroic effort from the working class people



Probably the biggest success of the Leave campaign is to push this, and the anti-establishment angle. Seems to have been swallowed across the board.

[QE Harold Flair]

Probably the biggest success of the Leave campaign is to push this, and the anti-establishment angle. Seems to have been swallowed across the board.

Yes, because it's true. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

[Lewis]

Didn't we establish on the old board that the 'working class' are a small minority these days? How did they manage this with such shitty numbers?

[QE Harold Flair]

Didn't we establish on the old board that the 'working class' are a small minority these days? How did they manage this with such shitty numbers?

No, I think that was a few of the out of touch twats on here who made the claim, and it was based on 'well if you have a pc you're not working class'. Yea, okay.

[Davgooner]

Yes, because it's true. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Come on now.

[QE Harold Flair]

Come on now.

What? They were going on all night about there being much higher turnout in council estates regions and traditional working class areas. The much higher turnout, overall, also suggests the notoriously disconnected working class came out to vote in numbers. I'm not sure why you doubt it.

[Lewis]

No, I think that was a few of the out of touch twats on here who made the claim, and it was based on 'well if you have a pc you're not working class'. Yea, okay.

You made a thread about London and said UKIP represented 'most of the working class'. Henners said that means they would win a majority at the next election, to which you replied that the working class were a 'minority'. It was based on you quoting a class survey (having lolled at Taz for posting the exact same survey) that said the 'traditional working class' was about fifteen per cent, and then refusing to accept that half of their categories were still working class. The old board is dead, but there is a cached version here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XECUIsgct34J:www.thedugout.tv/community/archive/index.php/t-92590.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk).

http://i64.tinypic.com/vmyfyp.png
http://i67.tinypic.com/b6dajb.png

So out of touch.

[Max Power]

What a shame. This thread was quite interesting to read for the past few weeks, now I guess it'll be a boring Harold thread.

[QE Harold Flair]

What a shame. This thread was quite interesting to read for the past few weeks, now I guess it'll be a boring Harold thread.

You enjoyed Lee and GS wanking each other off, did you? Tell me what I said that object to?

[QE Harold Flair]

You made a thread about London and said UKIP represented 'most of the working class'. Henners said that means they would win a majority at the next election, to which you replied that the working class were a 'minority'. It was based on you quoting a class survey (having lolled at Taz for posting the exact same survey) that said the 'traditional working class' was about fifteen per cent, and then refusing to accept that half of their categories were still working class. The old board is dead, but there is a cached version here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XECUIsgct34J:www.thedugout.tv/community/archive/index.php/t-92590.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk).

http://i64.tinypic.com/vmyfyp.png
http://i67.tinypic.com/b6dajb.png

So out of touch.



I'm not going through all that. The only one I remember about what constitutes class was when Fry said if you own a computer, you're not working class. And that was about 10 years ago. Of course UKIP are much bigger now than they were back then. So it looks like I was on the train early again.

[Magic]

What a shame. This thread was quite interesting to read for the past few weeks, now I guess it'll be a boring Harold thread.

I know it's easy to knock the Bish but come on, it's been boring shite.

[Chinny Hill]

Anyway, about this petition.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl0nCiKWIAUWRhI.jpg:large

[QE Harold Flair]

Anyway, about this petition.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl0nCiKWIAUWRhI.jpg:large

Photo isn't showing up for me.

[Chinny Hill]

Photo isn't showing up for me.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl0nCiKWIAUWRhI.jpg:large

[Lewis]

I'm not going through all that. The only one I remember about what constitutes class was when Fry said if you own a computer, you're not working class. And that was about 10 years ago. Of course UKIP are much bigger now than they were back then. So it looks like I was on the train early again.

This was my weekend, lads. You've ruined it.

[Lewis]

746788138392096768

You can't keep a good man down.

[Raoul Duke]

He might as well. He's totally fucked otherwise.

Who do you think will get it/want?

[Dquincy]

Should the poor be allowed to have only half a vote per person, whilst the middle class and above have a full vote each?

Just some musings.

[Lewis]

Boris Johnson will surely end up getting it, but Theresa May would be the better long-term bet. Gisela Stuart should be the National Prime Minister with Johnson being the Stanley Baldwin backroom Chancer-in-Chief making it all work.

[Magic]

A PM called Gideon...

[Chinny Hill]

I think Fox are getting a bit carried away.

http://a2.img.talkingpointsmemo.com/image/upload/c_fill,fl_keep_iptc,g_faces,h_365,w_652/qldjia554qln4pyo5aef.jpg

[GS]

Boris Johnson will surely end up getting it, but Theresa May would be the better long-term bet. Gisela Stuart should be the National Prime Minister with Johnson being the Stanley Baldwin backroom Chancer-in-Chief making it all work.

I'm fully on board with the national government. If you get everyone involved, you prevent it being used for leverage in future. The democratic will of the country needs to be implemented, and tough shit if you don't like it. The key is to get the best possible arrangement to make it work now.

We can exclude noted ideologues like Angela Eagle, who would be incapable of working with anybody else.

[GS]

746788138392096768

You can't keep a good man down.

He's fucking insane, isn't he.

Has he reappeared since the result?

[Lewis]

It would just be the Conservatives [and Unionists] and the Labour people willing to make it work (I was thinking 1931-40 rather than the wartime one), since the Liberal Democrats are irrelevant and clearly want to be the party of #The48, but it would also allow Johnson to look like less of an opportunist wanker if, whilst leading the Conservatives, he 'lets' somebody else be Prime Minister until 2018.

[Shindig]

Could we use Article 50 as some daft blackmail tool? Like, keep EU membership with some immigration fiddly bits and then threaten to trigger the exit if they get testy? Seems like nobody wants to be the PM that pulls the plug (Thanks, Dave.) so maybe grabbing a bit more out of the EU is the best of both worlds.

The whole referendum feels like both sides thinking, "Aye, they'll never vote for this."

[GS]

We couldn't.

The problem for the EU is that any concession, before or after Brexit, is considered to 'encourage' dissent and blackmail. Therefore they're not prepared to concede anything of consequence to anybody for fear of contagion. It's an organisation that's effectively being held together through coercion, seemingly, which is never going to end well for it.

I did laugh at the 'original six' finance ministers meeting and deciding that the UK must urgently take steps to remove itself from the EU. Alright, lads. You might have wanted to think about that when you wrote Article 50 into the Lisbon Treaty that you rammed through all of the member states irrespective of its rejection in referenda.

[Shindig]

That's the terrifying thing, really. For whoever's in power, we need to be fucking sorted if they trigger it. Unless they're willing to trigger it, lose the next election and exit quietly.

[GS]

There's no rush. It's in the UK's hands to decide when to trigger it. There's a view that we should wait until the French and Germans get their domestic elections out of the way, so it doesn't become a political football there. We should really be starting preliminary discussions over trade deals with some of the Commonwealth countries now as well - we can sell the Aussies a sense of humour in exchange for kangaroo steaks.

[GS]

Lads, don't worry. The Liberal Democrats are intending to fight the next general election (which could well be later in the year) with a 'clear commitment' to rejoining the EU.

:harold:

[Lee]

Lads, don't worry. The Liberal Democrats are intending to fight the next general election (which could well be later in the year) with a 'clear commitment' to rejoining the EU.

:harold:

To be fair there's clearly a gap in the market. Nothing wrong with having a pro-EU party. And if ever a party needs a gap in the market it's the Lib Dems right now.

The timing of the triggering of article 50 will be interesting. Boris is apprently briefing that he'll have an immediate election should he win the leadership. I'm assuming that "immediate" means spring next year as opposed to dark and rainy November. Anyway, if that's trie then it won't be invoked until after the election. Presumably he'll campaign on his exit plan, which presumably will be similar to what Norway have. I guess Labour will have a new leader who will be at least vaguely pro-EU.

Farage will explode, the Lib Dems will probably mount a minor recovery and we'll probably have the hungest parliament ever. Then what?
Never underestimate the willingess of politicians to fudge things.

[GS]

They'll get a load of disaffected Remain voters, almost certainly students and other young people, who then won't turn up to vote for them.

[Lee]

They'll get a load of disaffected Remain voters, almost certainly students and other young people, who then won't turn up to vote for them.

The young remain voters didn't turn out anyway.

[GS]

Indeed.

On a separate issue, I'm starting to get incredibly pissed off by the state of the coverage in some of the press. It's happened now. You may not like it, but raking over the embers of it and forecasting the end of civilisation and a 'right wing takeover' is the sort of shite that encourages OUTRAGE without genuine basis for it. If you keep telling young people "you woz robbed", they're going to start believing it. If you keep telling your readership that "we've been duped", they're going to start believing it. It encourages a complete disregard for the results of democratic processes where you don't like the results.

Just get a fucking grip on yourselves and start considering how to make the best of it.

[Lee]

I don't like your tone, mate.

We're #the48. Stick your 52 up your arse.

[Lewis]

The sort of people who will prioritise getting back into Europe when they vote presumably already vote Green or form the vanguard of the Jezza movement (and will have other priorities by 2020), and it will kill them in the rest of the country, so it strikes me as a pretty stupid thing to base your entire policy programme on.

[GS]

In related referendum fallout, Hilary 'one good speech in his life' Benn is canvassing support (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/hilary-benn-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-eu-referendum-brexit) for a mass resignation to force the good ship Jez to dock at the nearest port.


Leaked internal Labour party polling suggested that Labour would attract nearly 3 million fewer votes than it did in the 2015 general election if one were called today.

It shows that just 71% of those who voted for Ed Miliband’s Labour party in May last year say they would vote Labour now, and this drops further – to 67% – among working and lower middle-class C2DE voters.

[Lee]

Three fucking million. They are absolutely fucked.

[GS]

If Corbyn refuses to go, they'd need to consider nuclear options like breaking away and declaring themselves "official Labour".

[Lee]

Haven't they already decided that they'll set up a stalking horse even if he doesn't go quietly?

A breakaway though. :drool:

[GS]

They can, but technically they have no way of forcing him out unless he decides to a) resign and b) refuse to stand again. He's automatically on the ballot paper again unless he decides not to stand, so you're relying on Jez to recognise the game is up. He strikes me as someone who believes the Momentum hype, so we'll see. If he stays, we could be looking at 1983 in turbo. At least Foot had gravitas.

[Gray Fox]

To be fair, having voted Labour the past 2 elections and being from about as Labour dominated a place there is, I would not vote Labour with Corbyn as party leader.

[GS]

On the subject of Corbyn, I did rather enjoy this anecdote:

746798494611021824

[GS]

Fuck me, he's sacked Hilary Benn.

[7om]

The meltdowns just keep on coming :drool:

[Lewis]

I love it. Double down, Jezza, lad. Don't let them take you alive.

[Gray Fox]

At 1am on a Sunday? Mental.

Do we think Benns fellow shadow ministers will leave too, or sit there in silence?

[GS]

1am on a Sunday. Seamus Milne probably read the Guardian story and exploded with rage.

The rest of the shadow cabinet need to get some bollocks here and resign en masse. It's the only way to sufficiently discredit him that he has to accept it's done.

If he gets to a point where he's incapable of filling a shadow cabinet, he'd have to concede the point. If he still doesn't, then it really is time for another SDP.