U.S. Presidential Election 2016 (Sponsored by Betty Croker's Hamburger Helper)

[Spikey M]

https://i.ibb.co/bM5cBwFT/Screenshot-20250203-080913-Brave.jpg

We'll be fine.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They crucially include crown dependencies in that which includes a lot of 'services'. Saved from Trump's wrath by Brexit and the tax havens, this will spin a few heads.

[Kikó]

Imagine thinking trump thinks logically like this. 🥲

[Magic]

There's nothing to tariff lol. Whisky?

[Yevrah]

Imagine thinking trump thinks logically like this. ��


They crucially include crown dependencies in that which includes a lot of 'services'. Saved from Trump's wrath by Brexit and the tax havens, this will spin a few heads.

Imagine thinking anyone who was against Brexit will ever admit, under any circumstances, that it was a good thing.

[Kikó]

What was a good thing, brexit? 🥲

[Kikó]

The markets have reacted well this morning.

European markets live updates: stocks, news, data and earnings https://search.app/Jt4wVRLNo3Hh6cRG8

[niko_cee]

Brexit was just a thing that happened. It had been coming for a long time. It is pointless to try and rationlise it one way or the other, no one on either side of the divide will be particularly convinced one way or the other. Trying to say it was qualitatively good or bad is like saying it would have been better to let all those people die of covid and just keep on trucking. It has probably been handled pretty badly to date, but that was predictable, the whole process was designed to be as harmful as possible, and I'm not sure not being dragged into some sort of disaster by a madman necessarily gets a massive tick the the it was a good thing column.

Will be interesting how Trumponomics clashes with all the classical economists saying how silly and a bad idea this all is, given that most publicly facing economists are wrong about almost everything almost all of the time.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If one believes that post-1990 liberal consensus lasts forever then Brexit was a bad thing, which is why all the people most invested in that are also the people most invested in Brexit being a disaster. I voted leave because that's obviously not going to be the case, I am a British patriot and believe we will need agility and nimbleness in the future that being part of a 28 nation bloc does not afford.

There are inconveniences and costs and the ledger book doesn't currently add up but it will be worth it.

[Yevrah]

What was a good thing, brexit? 🥲

Thank you for proving my point.

[Kikó]

Objectively Brexit had not been a good thing. Happy to be proven otherwise but it's not really here nor there for this discussion.

[Spikey M]

It hasn't been, but I'm not sure we'd be any better off had Remain won. It's not as if the EU aren't facing most of the same issues we are.

[Giggles]

It was a symbolic thing more than anything, never anything practical. Nobody is better or worse off.

[niko_cee]

You could probably argue the whole thing has been equally 'harmful' the other way in distracting from / ostensibly stopping the drive towards federalism.

[Spikey M]

Imagine thinking anyone who was against Brexit will ever admit, under any circumstances, that it was a good thing.

I mean, I voted remain and given the choice I'd vote to rejoin, but I acknowledge that as with pretty much everything, there are pro's and cons. Not everyone that voted remain became a lunatic.

[Luke Emia]

How long do we have to wait for things to get better? That’s a genuine question, the two biggest things let’s control our immigration and make the NHS better which is what it was all sold on have gotten far worse since we left.

[Luke Emia]

I mean, I voted remain and given the choice I'd vote to rejoin, but I acknowledge that as with pretty much everything, there are pro's and cons. Not everyone that voted remain became a lunatic.

And I’m very much in that camp as well. There is plenty wrong with the EU and I actually do think Brexit could be made to work, but only really if we actually built and made things and if we actually had a degree of competence leading the country.

[Spikey M]

How long do we have to wait for things to get better? That’s a genuine question, the two biggest things let’s control our immigration and make the NHS better which is what it was all sold on have gotten far worse since we left.

They don't get better. All they're interested in is GDP and growth. And for that they either need a massive fluke, like they had with the advent of the Internet (which is why they're so desperate to make AI the nations new religion) or more people.

Mass immigration was not an accident and I don't believe the managed decline of the NHS is either. Slow but steady privatisation is the aim.

[Yevrah]

Objectively Brexit had not been a good thing. Happy to be proven otherwise but it's not really here nor there for this discussion.

Which is all well and good, but have a re-read of what I said.


Imagine thinking anyone who was against Brexit will ever admit, under any circumstances, that it was a good thing.

A hypothetical posed, but you couldn't wait to jump on it being bad. The point being there will still be many people (not all to be fair as Spikey says) that irrespective of the circumstances will never concede it as a good thing.

[phonics]

"Why can't you consider the thing that's been absolutely no good as a good thing. I'm very intelligent"

[Spikey M]

"Why can't you consider the thing that's been absolutely no good as a good thing. I'm very intelligent"

If it allows us to dodge huge tariffs from the Yanks, that's a good thing? No?

[Yevrah]

This is too easy and so unbelievably predictable.

[Kikó]

Which is all well and good, but have a re-read of what I said.



A hypothetical posed, but you couldn't wait to jump on it being bad. The point being there will still be many people (not all to be fair as Spikey says) that irrespective of the circumstances will never concede it as a good thing.

I don't understand what it's got to do with what I said. Trump is a zero sum game person and doesn't care whether the UK has a surplus or deficit.

[Magic]

This is too easy and so unbelievably predictable.

You're going to have to explain this, please.

[Pepe]

All they're interested in is GDP and growth.

Aren't you rolling on zero growth? Probably good that they don't try to fix immigration or the NHS or you would probably all be sent to Haiti and paying 100% taxes to fund the NHS if they did.

[Lewis]

Leaving the European Union was a means to an end, and they have either failed to take advantage of its potential benefits (trade, regulations, etc.) or deliberately fucked things up (immigration). It was always only going to be as good or as pointless as our governments wanted it to be, and we have had dogshit governments since.

[Spikey M]

Aren't you rolling on zero growth? Probably good that they don't try to fix immigration or the NHS or you would probably all be sent to Haiti and paying 100% taxes to fund the NHS if they did.

We are. Hence the immigration. I honestly don't think they know what to do.

[Magic]

Leaving the European Union was a means to an end, and they have either failed to take advantage of its potential benefits (trade, regulations, etc.) or deliberately fucked things up (immigration). It was always only going to be as good or as pointless as our governments wanted it to be, and we have had dogshit governments since.

So how does making it infinitely harder to trade with our closest and biggest trading partner become advantageous?

[Spikey M]

So how does making it infinitely harder to trade with our closest and biggest trading partner become advantageous?

By taking advantage of being able to do things that members of the EU can't do. Norway have done so very nicely.

[Magic]

By taking advantage of being able to do things that members of the EU can't do. Norway have done so very nicely.

Like what and how?

[Spikey M]

Like what and how?

I don't know, I am Yevrah. It was the Leave plan though, wasn't it. Leave the EU, cut up the regulations that stop us from over-fishing, fracking, marrying 9 year olds, etc. Then cash in on the fact that none of our EU rivals can compete.

Now, obviously, we didn't do that and here we are. I will leave the how's and whys to others.

[Magic]

I don't know, I am Yevrah. It was the Leave plan though, wasn't it. Leave the EU, cut up the regulations that stop us from over-fishing, fracking, marrying 9 year olds, etc. Then cash in on the fact that none of our EU rivals can compete.

Now, obviously, we didn't do that and here we are. I will leave the how's and whys to others.

So you stated it as a fact and have no evidence?

[Spikey M]

Evidence? We're talking on TTH, not having a debate at your Student Union you fanny.

[Magic]

Evidence? We're talking on TTH, not having a debate at your Student Union you fanny.

Right. So I had a thing that worked and now I did something and it's shit. But it could have worked. Not sure how but it could have.

[Spikey M]

No, you're right. The EU is paradise right now and it's only everyone outside of it that's struggling.

As already stated, I voted remain. I would vote to rejoin. I'm simply capable of playing devil's advocate and understanding that there were potentially ways that leaving the EU could have worked in our favour if we had capable leaders.

[Magic]

No, you're right. The EU is paradise right now and it's only everyone outside of it that's struggling.

As already stated, I voted remain. I would vote to rejoin. I'm simply capable of playing devil's advocate and understanding that there were potentially ways that leaving the EU could have worked in our favour if we had capable leaders.

I never said that. We are now much worse off financially than we were before, and our immigration is fucked.

Devils advocate is fine, but you need evidence to demonstrate how it was incompetent leadership that caused BREXIT to fail rather than it was just a stupid idea with no possibility of being good.

[Spikey M]

In which case you need evidence that we had something that was working while we were in the EU. Because last time I checked the economy has been fucked since 2007.

[niko_cee]

At least, unlike our grown up in the room European betters we aren't going to be voting in actual Nazis, at least not for a few years.

Norway is an interesting example. Their extremist left wing government is coming under increasing pressure to justify things like their wealth taxes. These are the times we are in.

[Lofty]

The proper lefties wanted Brexit as well, just as a reminder.

[Magic]

In which case you need evidence that we had something that was working while we were in the EU. Because last time I checked the economy has been fucked since 2007.

War of the Roses was a right cunt as well, IIRC.

Main point is, after BREXIT, graphs go down, apart from one...how much more wealth was transferred up. COVID caused both of these lines to go in their respective directions even harder.

[niko_cee]

I think Brexit is probably one of the few seismic political spasms of recent times that can't be put down to elite conspiracy, other than in perhaps a very localised/self-serving way for people like Boris. Very much not what was wanted by the establishment and really not in 'their' interests at all.

[Magic]

I think Brexit is probably one of the few seismic political spasms of recent times that can't be put down to elite conspiracy, other than in perhaps a very localised/self-serving way for people like Boris. Very much not what was wanted by the establishment and really not in 'their' interests at all.

It actually seems like anything bad that happens almost always benefits the already rich and fucks the already poor.

For example:

https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/uk-wealth-gains.png.webp

[Spikey M]

I think Brexit is probably one of the few seismic political spasms of recent times that can't be put down to elite conspiracy, other than in perhaps a very localised/self-serving way for people like Boris. Very much not what was wanted by the establishment and really not in 'their' interests at all.

Which is exactly why leave won. First and foremost, it was a middle finger to piggy fucking Etonian.

[Magic]

Which is exactly why leave won. First and foremost, it was a middle finger to piggy fucking Etonian.

Yeah, take even MORE money you pig fucker!

Needless to say, I had the last laugh.

[Spikey M]

It actually seems like anything bad that happens almost always benefits the already rich and fucks the already poor.

For example:

https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/uk-wealth-gains.png.webp

Of course. You only need to look at the 2008 financial crisis. Millionaires and Billionaires bailed out at great expense to tax payers. Not one of them faced any consequences for crashing the economy and we're still paying for it nearly 20 years later

[Kikó]

It actually seems like anything bad that happens almost always benefits the already rich and fucks the already poor.

For example:

https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/uk-wealth-gains.png.webp

I like this graph. Very clear.

[niko_cee]

They need a much more granular breakdown of that. The top 1% will be 100s if not 1000s of percent up, the next tranche to top 5 will be doing very nicely, bet it flattens out a lot after that.

[Spikey M]

I like this graph. Very clear.

But does it look any different to how it would look if Remain had won?

[Lewis]

But does it look any different to how it would look if Remain had won?

It's why Remain didn't win. The 'Top 20%' is basically everybody with a house in the South and pensioners.

[Magic]

But does it look any different to how it would look if Remain had won?

It probably would have still gone up, but not as fast or hard. It came at the worst possible time as well, with the COVID bonfire.

[Yevrah]

Capitalism has been taking the piss for a number of years now and while none of us are anywhere near informed enough on the subject to pass authoritative judgement my hunch would be that Brexit made very little difference with this, either way. Hell, it might have stalled it if anything given the vast majority of people assumed it wasn't going to happen, even on the actual night.

[Yevrah]

Devils advocate is fine, but you need evidence to demonstrate how it was incompetent leadership that caused BREXIT to fail rather than it was just a stupid idea with no possibility of being good.

The only part of that sentence/question any of us can be absolutely sure of is the incompetent leadership bit, as we all know we had that. Offering the referendum in the first place being a prime example.

[Magic]

The only part of that sentence/question any of us can be absolutely sure of is the incompetent leadership bit, as we all know we had that. Offering the referendum in the first place being a prime example.

Lol then you don't change anything, durrr?

[Kikó]

But does it look any different to how it would look if Remain had won?

Look at the graph mate, I can't tell you everything.

[Yevrah]

Lol then you don't change anything, durrr?

You what?

I'm saying that our relationship with the European Union and trade in general is/was incredibly complicated and I can count on one hand the number of people who spoke about it during the run up that sounded like they had any clue at all. For everyone else it was an ideologically driven decision. i.e. they loved/didn't like foreigners, they wanted sovereignty, they wanted open borders etc.

As a result the information to prove whether it could have been a good thing just isn't there, as it wasn't in proving it would be a bad thing. The only thing we know was that in the aftermath of it we had a series of the least competent governments in my lifetime, so it's probably fair to say it had no chance with those people at the helm.

Labour might be messing things up a bit but at least it looks like they're actually working. The rank incompetence and lies overshadowed this point, but I should think July last year was the first time for a while that number 10 saw a full day's work put in.

[Magic]

If things are good/bad/indifferent and your leadership is terrible then you don't change anything.

[Yevrah]

If things are good/bad/indifferent and your leadership is terrible then you don't change anything.

The leadership was fine/tolerable before the vote, it was after that point it all went to shit (as anyone vaguely competent legged it), at which point you simply can't row back on the vote without giving up all pretence that you're an actual democracy.

[Spikey M]

The difficulty with democracy is that it's absolutely right that people should have a say in how they are governed. However, unfortunately, a sizeable portion of the population is thick as pigshit and doesn't know how to vote in their own best interest.

[randomlegend]

When the referendum was looming, every single expert in their field was saying it would be a disaster within their field.

The only people saying it was going to be great were people whose arguments were lies (obviously so at the time and proven to be subsequently).

Surprisingly, it's been shit. Now the people in favour are all "well yeah it's shit like you predicted but that's not it's fault".

[Magic]

The leadership was fine/tolerable before the vote, it was after that point it all went to shit (as anyone vaguely competent legged it), at which point you simply can't row back on the vote without giving up all pretence that you're an actual democracy.

A competent leadership wouldn't have allowed a vote like this.

[randomlegend]

The difficulty with democracy is that it's absolutely right that people should have a say in how they are governed. However, unfortunately, a sizeable portion of the population is thick as pigshit and doesn't know how to vote in their own best interest.


https://youtu.be/QFgcqB8-AxE?si=X7piNFaebYFBBKTZ

Any excuse to repost this.

[Lofty]

A competent leadership wouldn't have allowed a vote like this.

Blair allowing large levels of immigration via the EU gave euroskeptic movements a lot more credibility in the long run, Farage was mocked as a caricature but his movement managed to pressure a referendum vote: if it hadn't have been called it would have just been continually brought up until it did happen in my opinion. Same way as if Remain had won by anything other than a landslide we would be going round and round debating another referendum to the point it was in election manifestos: Scotland wants a do over doesn't it?

[niko_cee]

When the referendum was looming, every single expert in their field was saying it would be a disaster within their field.

The only people saying it was going to be great were people whose arguments were lies (obviously so at the time and proven to be subsequently).

Surprisingly, it's been shit. Now the people in favour are all "well yeah it's shit like you predicted but that's not it's fault".

Doesn't this somewhat, once again, underscore one of the main reasons it happened? All of the experts in their fields were living comfortable lives completely happy with the status quo, and entirely oblivious to the fact that it really hadn't been working as well for a substantial percentage of the population? Why are you voting to make yourself worse off only works if one of the options is presented as being actually better and, for a lot of people, let's just keep doing what we've been doing for 40 years didn't seem like the most inspiring sell.

As Spikey said, a vote to give the ruling class a bloody nose is as good an explanation as any. That said ruling class, including all of the experts in their fields, had no fucking idea it was coming is entirely emblematic of the society they had presided over creating.

The great irony of the time being that there was an actual old fashioned socialist primed to take advantage and he/they bottled it, and were then lampooned for believing in a magic money tree which it turned out was real and was able to see an extraordinary transfer of wealth away from the government just 2 years later.

The same 'but economy graph goes up' logic led to the collapse of the democrats in the face of Trump.

[Magic]

Blair allowing large levels of immigration via the EU gave euroskeptic movements a lot more credibility in the long run, Farage was mocked as a caricature but his movement managed to pressure a referendum vote: if it hadn't have been called it would have just been continually brought up until it did happen in my opinion. Same way as if Remain had won by anything other than a landslide we would be going round and round debating another referendum to the point it was in election manifestos: Scotland wants a do over doesn't it?

Legal immigration. Farage was using images of Syrian refugees trapsing in to Romania or somewhere shit.

[Lewis]

The referendum was preceded by a decade of stagnation and worsening living standards for large parts of the country, all overseen and endorsed by the 'experts', which is always strangely absent from any analysis attempted by the losing side which prefers to imagine that everyone woke up one day and got conned by a bus.

[Yevrah]

Surprisingly, it's been shit. Now the people in favour are all "well yeah it's shit like you predicted but that's not it's fault".

I don't doubt this, but it would be nice to see a quantum of that shit. It's all well and good saying our economy has stagnated (it has), prices are ridiculous (they are) and public services are shite (yep, het-trick), but doesn't this repeat across all of Europe too?

It's a measure of how badly the argument was handled from both sides that there aren't simple measures to demonstrate just how shit it has been. Instead, I'm left listening to Jame's O'Brien take callers detailing paperwork issues.

[Yevrah]

The difficulty with democracy is that it's absolutely right that people should have a say in how they are governed. However, unfortunately, a sizeable portion of the population is thick as pigshit and doesn't know how to vote in their own best interest.

I hate that argument as it's the political equivalent of blaming 'the players' - and while it's true, nobody, not a single person, gets into politics without knowing this so to be good at their job they need to allow for that.

[Magic]

The referendum was preceded by a decade of stagnation and worsening living standards for large parts of the country, all overseen and endorsed by the 'experts', which is always strangely absent from any analysis attempted by the losing side which prefers to imagine that everyone woke up one day and got conned by a bus.

It was because rich people wanted to make more money, which they did. And not content with that, they wanted to make even more money, which they have.

Tale as old as time.

[Pepe]

I like this graph. Very clear.

:lol:

[Yevrah]

A competent leadership wouldn't have allowed a vote like this.

Well yeah, it transpired that he was very much not confident. First rule of offering a referendum, you need to know what the result will be.

That said, we very nearly did something worse a few years before by offering that stupid AV referendum.

[Yevrah]

Doesn't this somewhat, once again, underscore one of the main reasons it happened? All of the experts in their fields were living comfortable lives completely happy with the status quo, and entirely oblivious to the fact that it really hadn't been working as well for a substantial percentage of the population? Why are you voting to make yourself worse off only works if one of the options is presented as being actually better and, for a lot of people, let's just keep doing what we've been doing for 40 years didn't seem like the most inspiring sell.

As Spikey said, a vote to give the ruling class a bloody nose is as good an explanation as any. That said ruling class, including all of the experts in their fields, had no fucking idea it was coming is entirely emblematic of the society they had presided over creating.

The great irony of the time being that there was an actual old fashioned socialist primed to take advantage and he/they bottled it, and were then lampooned for believing in a magic money tree which it turned out was real and was able to see an extraordinary transfer of wealth away from the government just 2 years later.

The same 'but economy graph goes up' logic led to the collapse of the democrats in the face of Trump.

The bloody nose explanation is, in my view, wrong. People who had nothing chose to role the dice as they knew they'd still have nothing by not rolling them. They also knew they might lose a bit by rolling them, but if you already have nothing, who cares.

[Pepe]

Someone please clarify something for me:

After Brexit, what regulations have changed that wouldn't have been possible under the EU? Surely that is the reason to get out of the EU stronghold. If you just leave but keep all your idiotic regulation in place, then of course it won't turn out well, will it?

[Spikey M]

The bloody nose explanation is, in my view, wrong. People who had nothing chose to role the dice as they knew they'd still have nothing by not rolling them. They also knew they might lose a bit by rolling them, but if you already have nothing, who cares.

It's not wrong, it's just not true for everyone. There won't be any single correct answer. For example, plumbers, they were 10 a penny when we had a Polish people hiding under every rock. You struggle to find one now, and they want £100 just to turn up when you do, so Brexit has worked quite well for Dagenham Dave who didn't want them comin' over 'ere, stealin' ah jobs.

Now... delivery drivers on the other hand.

[Spikey M]

Someone please clarify something for me:

After Brexit, what regulations have changed that wouldn't have been possible under the EU? Surely that is the reason to get out of the EU stronghold. If you just leave but keep all your idiotic regulation in place, then of course it won't turn out well, will it?

That's pretty much what happened, yeah. We have all of the downsides of being a member of the EU, with none of the Benefits. A tale that is told throughout the last 14 years of Tory Leadership in many different fields.

[Magic]

Well yeah, it transpired that he was very much not confident. First rule of offering a referendum, you need to know what the result will be.

That said, we very nearly did something worse a few years before by offering that stupid AV referendum.

Closely followed by exactly what to do.

[Magic]

Remember when they kept telling us austerity was like house hold debt and cutting back on your Sky package?

[Kikó]

Someone please clarify something for me:

After Brexit, what regulations have changed that wouldn't have been possible under the EU? Surely that is the reason to get out of the EU stronghold. If you just leave but keep all your idiotic regulation in place, then of course it won't turn out well, will it?

The challenge is when Europe is your biggest market, you still need to produce products to their standards so you end up keeping the majority of the rules from before. Similarly, EU companies aren't going to change their standards to sell to the UK market (relatively small) so you end up at mostly status quo.

[Jimmy Floyd]

UK market isn't relatively small for EU. 2nd biggest behind US, and will now only increase in importance if there are US tariffs.

Main reason EU have been hostile to date in terms of trade concessions is that they don't want to encourage any other countries and their various populist movements to leave the bloc. That can only go so far, though.

[Boydy]

The great irony of the time being that there was an actual old fashioned socialist primed to take advantage and he/they bottled it, and were then lampooned for believing in a magic money tree which it turned out was real and was able to see an extraordinary transfer of wealth away from the government just 2 years later.

Our current Cunt-in-Chief was one the main ones behind torpedoing that.

[niko_cee]

Yes, Mr literal knight of the realm establishment status quo thank you very much, what a shocker.

[niko_cee]

The bloody nose explanation is, in my view, wrong. People who had nothing chose to role the dice as they knew they'd still have nothing by not rolling them. They also knew they might lose a bit by rolling them, but if you already have nothing, who cares.

I meant it more in the sense that you have stated, where you feel the current offering has failed you, then you are inclined to choose the other even where that choice appears nonsensical to the experts in the field.

[Bernanke]

Looks like Mexico folded. :lol:

[Pepe]

I mean, "folding" is the right thing to do here, especially if it fucks the cartels in any way. Trudeau retaliating with tariffs shows that he is as stupid as Trump, just a bit more refined.

[Pepe]

Avocado back on the menu. :cool:

[Magic]

"Mexico had agreed to send 10,000 members of its national guard “to prevent drug trafficking from Mexico to the US, in particular of fentanyl”. In return, the US had agreed to work to prevent high-powered weapons crossing the border into Mexico."

I mean...lol.

[Pepe]

She should have set 50% tariffs on US products instead. Make Mexicans even poorer. That'll show him!

[Kikó]

Ontario is full out war on the US. OUT goes American booze, OUT goes starlink, OUT goes provincial contracts to US companies.

[Pepe]

Make Canadians poorer! Cut their internet! That'll show him!

[Lofty]

Lancashire has retained it's population of Polish bargain tradesmen and nymphomaniac psychopathic blondes and I'm all in favour of it.

[Giggles]

All this better not stop me being able to get Atomic Torpedo.

[Magic]

Ontario is full out war on the US. OUT goes American booze, OUT goes starlink, OUT goes provincial contracts to US companies.

Poor sales guy must be suicidal. 100m contract ripped up, ouch.

[niko_cee]

Given the subtext/justification for this tariff business with Mexico and Canada is immigrants and fentanyl flowing across the land borders, and China is apparently supplying the raw materials for drug manufacture, what is the rationale for a trade war with the EU? Can the President really just do whatever the fuck he likes? Got to say I'm rather loving the bonfire of the checks and balances they lecture the rest of the world about, but at the same time am slightly confused as to how they aren't checking and balancing unfettered executive power.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The constitution was designed by and for high-minded men of state, it has holes for a gangster-president to exploit.

[Pepe]

Fiscal policy is an executive thing. Unless you can claim he is not respecting the Constitution somehow, what can the judicial do? The birthright thing got lolled by the courts immediately.

[niko_cee]

Fiscal policy is an executive thing. Unless you can claim he is not respecting the Constitution somehow, what can the judicial do? The birthright thing got lolled by the courts immediately.

Doesn't fiscal policy require legislation to implement it at some point? Or does the stupidly bloated ledger of historic laws they maintain essentially allow anything by the aforementioned rogue gangster president?

[Pepe]

Doesn't fiscal policy require legislation to implement it at some point? Or does the stupidly bloated ledger of historic laws they maintain essentially allow anything by the aforementioned rogue gangster president?

I don't really know very well. I think he can set tax rates and tariffs and things like that, while the budget needs to be approved by the legislative.

Of course laws only apply while people respect them and enforce them. After that all bets are off.

[Yevrah]

Which nameless/faceless bureaucrat has the joy of picking this one up for the EU? Time to earn your money son.

[Luke Emia]

The referendum was preceded by a decade of stagnation and worsening living standards for large parts of the country, all overseen and endorsed by the 'experts', which is always strangely absent from any analysis attempted by the losing side which prefers to imagine that everyone woke up one day and got conned by a bus.

True. But, it’s now getting on for two decades and Brexit definitely hasn’t helped that. As I said if we actually had non spastics in charge we could make it work. Problem is the Tories way of making it work is just letting loads of Asians in, which regardless of how you voted was definitely not what you wanted.

[Luke Emia]

I don't doubt this, but it would be nice to see a quantum of that shit. It's all well and good saying our economy has stagnated (it has), prices are ridiculous (they are) and public services are shite (yep, het-trick), but doesn't this repeat across all of Europe too?


Scandinavian countries? They seem to be well run.

[Shindig]

So he's doing the tariff stuff but are there any plans for the US to become more self-sufficient in manufacturing, agriculture, etc?

[Spikey M]

Problem is the Tories way of making it work is just letting loads of Asians in, which regardless of how you voted was definitely not what you wanted.

What's most frustrating about this, is that we're now stirring up anti-immigrant hatred to ridiculous levels and it's the immigrants we do want - skilled workers - that cop the flak. All because these fucking idiots can't see a world outside of GDP LINE GO UP and the easiest way to achieve that is to open the floodgates to anyone and everyone as long as they're out there consuming shit. Which, of course, is all we could ever want.

[Magic]

So he's doing the tariff stuff but are there any plans for the US to become more self-sufficient in manufacturing, agriculture, etc?

They've really put every single one of their eggs in the AI basket.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Now just waiting for President Xi's tweet announcing that he's sending 10,000 troops to Shanghai port to check for any fentanyl leaving docks.

[randomlegend]

Trump getting conned by Mexico and Canada. The art of the deal indeed.

[Magic]

But he's claimed it as a win and also distracted everyone from Musk.

[John Arne]

Yeah, a quick glance on X, and everyone is claiming "Canada caves"... He can't do anything wrong in their eyes.

[Ben]

Ecuador joining the party by imposing 27% tariffs on Mexico because why the fuck not. Tariffs are in vogue now.

[Yevrah]

If you like/support Trump he's won, if you don't he hasn't.

The reality (whatever that is) doesn't really matter.

[Pepe]

If the tariffs don't happen then at least no one loses. Nothing there to win in this stupid game. You could claim that the US 'won' by forcing the others to tighten their border security (even though it's all obviously a bit performative) I guess, but I cannot see how the US got 'conned' in any way, shape, or form.

[Pepe]

Ecuador joining the party by imposing 27% tariffs on Mexico because why the fuck not. Tariffs are in vogue now.

:lol:

The only response that should merit is a 'who?'

[randomlegend]

If the tariffs don't happen then at least no one loses. Nothing there to win in this stupid game. You could claim that the US 'won' by forcing the others to tighten their border security (even though it's all obviously a bit performative) I guess, but I cannot see how the US got 'conned' in any way, shape, or form.

Because they've got Trump to back down on his threats by promising to do stuff they were either already doing or had already agreed to do.

[Pepe]

Link to where Mexico and/or Canada committed to deploying 10k soldiers to their respective borders before yesterday?

[randomlegend]

Link to where Mexico and/or Canada committed to deploying 10k soldiers to their respective borders before yesterday?

Mexico, 2021:

https://apnews.com/article/guatemala-honduras-mexico-immigration-border-patrols-917c0fea87c0a807b371da207d34c8cc


According to White House press secretary Jen Psaki, Mexico will maintain a deployment of about 10,000 troops,

Canada, December 2024:

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2024/12/government-of-canada-announces-its-plan-to-strengthen-border-security-and-our-immigration-system.html


Backed by an investment of $1.3 billion

Which is the same plan as they've sold to Trump to stop the tariffs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c87d5rlee52o


Trudeau said Canada was implementing a $1.3bn (£1bn) border plan that included nearly 10,000 frontline workers and more resources to halt the flow of fentanyl, a synthetic drug 50 times stronger than heroin, which Trump has cited as a major concern.

...

Much of the border security plan had already been announced by Canada in December.

[Magic]

“Tariff,” Donald Trump has said many times, “is the most beautiful word in the dictionary.”

:D

[Pepe]

So he made them expedite their promises. WIN.

This is basically it:


If you like/support Trump he's won, if you don't he hasn't.

The reality (whatever that is) doesn't really matter.

[Pepe]

“Tariff,” Donald Trump has said many times, “is the most beautiful word in the dictionary.”

:D

See you in a month for round 2 lol.

[randomlegend]

Did he? Link to where Mexico and/or Canada committed to expediting anything.

This is Trump's grift. Invent a crisis. Find some way of selling to complete morons that you've solved the crisis you invented. Profit.

[Pepe]

This is Trump's grift. Invent a crisis. Find some way of selling to complete morons that you've solved the crisis you invented. Profit.

This is true. Yet certain people always panic like if the world will end tomorrow.

For me, anything that leads to 'not tariffs' is good. If what the other countries need to do is 'nothing,' even better.

[randomlegend]

The shit he's letting Musk do is not remotely the same.

[Spikey M]

Did he? Link to where Mexico and/or Canada committed to expediting anything.

This is Trump's grift. Invent a crisis. Find some way of selling to complete morons that you've solved the crisis you invented. Profit.

Correct. And yet you've spent the last week or so shitting yourself about the rise of the Fourth Reich.

[Pepe]

The shit he's letting Musk do is not remotely the same.

So far nothing has happened, but in theory he is letting Musk reduce the federal government. Trump is the head of the federal government. Maybe if federal bureaucrats didn't spend his last term being very proud about ignoring his orders this wouldn't be happening. I would prefer if they cut regulations instead of firing people, personally. Firing bureaucrats but keeping the same regulations will just make processes even slower.

[randomlegend]

Correct. And yet you've spent the last week or so shitting yourself about the rise of the Fourth Reich.

Not over the stupid tariffs. That's just his opportunity to masturbate in front of his idiot supporters.

There's no point arguing about it. You're all completely entrenched in the idea that a government overthrowing democracy in a country like America can't happen these days. You'll see.

[randomlegend]

So far nothing has happened, but in theory he is letting Musk reduce the federal government. Trump is the head of the federal government. Maybe if federal bureaucrats didn't spend his last term being very proud about ignoring his orders this wouldn't be happening. I would prefer if they cut regulations instead of firing people, personally. Firing bureaucrats but keeping the same regulations will just make processes even slower.

Lots has happened, you just desperately rationalise it away.

[Pepe]

You're all completely entrenched in the idea that a government overthrowing democracy in a country like America can't happen these days. You'll see.

Good that they all own guns and are therefore prepared for such an event. The founding fathers. :cool:

[Yevrah]

There's no point arguing about it. You're all completely entrenched in the idea that a government overthrowing democracy in a country like America can't happen these days. You'll see.

Out of interest, what do you think will happen?

And for what it's worth, I absolutely think a government could overthrow a democracy in the Western World and there's probably never been an easier time (in modern history at any rate) to do it and succeed.

[Yevrah]

Oh and the latest Hollywood meltdown.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crr0x4qxxvko

When will these people realise that nobody bar those who already agree with them give a shit what they think?

[niko_cee]

Hey man, his wife teaches disability justice in New York!

[Kikó]

This guy is very knowledgeable on the workings of the US financial system and usually very impartial so if he's having a panic attack about musk then it's probably worth paying attention.

Elon Musk’s Effort to Control the Treasury Payment System Is Dangerous https://search.app/ihWNGjFStbBvjdX57

[Spikey M]

The man that passes judgement on every news source going just posted a RollingStone article.

[Lofty]

Got that news like Jagger.

[randomlegend]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/elon-musk-doge-employees-trump-b2692016.html

:D

[Yevrah]

The idea that government experience is a thing. :D

One of them quit a seven figure job to do it FFS.

[Magic]

The youngest of Musk’s crew, Coristine, is still in college, according to reports, and is the heir to his father’s popcorn brand Lesser Evil.

Lol. Perfect.

Edit: obviously it was acquired by an evil bond trading capitalist who is going to give it to his son.

[Kikó]

The man that passes judgement on every news source going just posted a RollingStone article.

It's the author not the venue ignoramus.

[Pepe]

The idea that government experience is a thing. :D

No government experience probably the main requirement for someone in charge of slashing budgets. Any lifetime bureaucrat will tell you that of course every single dollar given to every single program is absolutely required and they, if anything, are all severely underfunded.

[Pepe]

The trillion dollar question: will the military lose any funding?

[randomlegend]

One of them quit a seven figure job to do it FFS.

You cannot be this irredeemably fucking stupid.

[Magic]

Running a thing for the good of society and the public is absolutely polar opposite of running a thing for corporate profit.

I hope they all die in a private yacht incident.

[randomlegend]

They'll be running a thing directly into their own bank accounts.

[Magic]

Yes they are, he's already said he wants everything in the private sector. The only aim of this is destruction.

[Pepe]

Anarchists. :cool:

[Lewis]

Let's not pretend those lads aren't clever. Luke Farritor sounds smarter than everybody he is sacking combined.

[Pepe]

Let's not pretend those lads aren't clever. Luke Farritor sounds smarter than everybody he is sacking combined.

Being clever is probably what they mean by unconventional.


Senior Democrats, academics, economists and political commentators have sounded the alarm over the unconventional hires

[Magic]

If they're clever they must be super autists.

I think anyone that is autistic is a cunt so should probably be chucked in the chambers for the sake of society.

[Boydy]

Shouldn't be too hard for China to honeypot the nerds anyway.

[randomlegend]

Whether they are clever or not is entirely irrelevant. I'm sure they are very clever.

What is ":D" is that the United States has handed the keys to it's entire purse and enormous amounts it's citizens' most sensitive data to a bunch of unvetted tech bros with no security clearance and no oversight under the instruction of Elon fucking Musk.

They've already hooked it up to their own commercial server so all of that data is now compromised, forever.

[Pepe]

https://media.tenor.com/TY-5qp551-AAAAAM/ron-ronswanson.gif

[Lewis]

Proper envious really. I would do that job for free.

[Pepe]

Didn't musk say he would put the most wasteful departments on Twitter and then we could vote on them or something like that? I hope he does. Might even get an account for it.

[Shindig]

I would say that's too high stakes to let it go to a public vote but we vote in world leaders all the time.

[randomlegend]

I would say that's too high stakes to let it go to a public vote.

We're talking about people who named their "department" after a memecoin for the megalolz here.

[phonics]

As a lefty who has had many dealings with USAID over the years I'm torn.

1) USAID is a massive slush fund to hide CIA/Foreign Interventionism, which is obviously bad
2) USAID also does do alot of really good things. PEPFAR alone had saved tens of millions of lives funding HIV prevention/medication to people who would have absolutely no chance of accessing it otherwise. In Africa, HIV contraction rates total are down numbers wise 50% since the early 2000s despite the population increasing by 3-4% a year. On top of the people who are being treated for it that's another tens of millions who never had to catch it in the first place. It's a truly monumental and moral contribution to the world.

That's the moral side of it. On the realist side of it is

3) The entire point of USAID is soft power, you give out this money because these countries have vast mineral and resource wealth. It's not selfless charity, you give these people money/build projects because in return they sell you the cobalt, the lithium, the platinum etc. Africa contains vast swathes of this stuff. China is currently building them highways and throwing in a palace for the local chief to get access to this stuff. It just speeds up you losing control.

[Pepe]

https://media.tenor.com/TY-5qp551-AAAAAM/ron-ronswanson.gif

[Lofty]

If he doesnt put DOGE as an option he's a coward.

[Yevrah]

You cannot be this irredeemably fucking stupid.

You’ve jumped the shark. Using any argument to support your pathological hatred for the Trumpster, no matter how utterly dumb they are. Where was ‘government experience’ useful during the last x years of absolute shite we’ve just lived through? The rotating cavalcade of absolute fuckwits we endured were dripping with it and all absolutely fucking useless.

Maybe, just maybe, someone who seems pretty well placed to do alright in life (given he’s basically a child and on $100k a year already) might be able to cut through the absolute waste and mismanagement these departments will be swimming in. And we all know they will be - don’t even start pretending otherwise.

[phonics]

Considering the '$50 million dollars for Condoms to Hamas' was actually about Gaza, Mozambique and the latest thing to be deleted was an app that allowed Americans to submit their taxes for free instead of paying TurboTax $400, maybe just maybe they might also be dumb?

Also, where is this same energy for the military. The entire USAID budget was laid out in black and white on a public database (that they deleted) meanwhile the Pentagon hasn't passed an audit in a decade. USAID budget was 10% of the miltary budget last year. I'd try to be more accurate but these geniuses turned off the website that I could check the numbers.

[Yevrah]

They might well be, I don’t know, but that wasn’t the point I was making.

[phonics]

Your point was a completely unprovable hypothetical that's almost immediately debunked by what we've seen so far so it wasn't much of a point to begin with.

[Yevrah]

Jesus fuck.

My point was that RL is using any argument to suit, no matter how dumb they are. He’s better than that.

[phonics]

Jesus fuck.

My point was that RL is using any argument to suit, no matter how dumb they are. He’s better than that.

That's also quite literally what you did back to him. You invented a magical human being to counter his argument.

[Boydy]

Being (very) good at coding doesn't mean you should be put in charge of running a country's finances at the age of 25. Jesus Christ, how is that a controversial opinion?

You expect this kind of delusional arrogance from software engineers themselves. You don't expect other people to buy into it.

[niko_cee]

Much like many of the potential catastrophes humanity is facing, this one is going to be a learn the hard way one. They mostly seem to be these days.

[Yevrah]

Being (very) good at coding doesn't mean you should be put in charge of running a country's finances at the age of 25. Jesus Christ, how is that a controversial opinion?

You expect this kind of delusional arrogance from software engineers themselves. You don't expect other people to buy into it.

Would a 25 year old really have done any worse than Liz Truss?

[Magic]

Being (very) good at coding doesn't mean you should be put in charge of running a country's finances at the age of 25. Jesus Christ, how is that a controversial opinion?

You expect this kind of delusional arrogance from software engineers themselves. You don't expect other people to buy into it.

They'll be replaced by AI soon enough.

[phonics]

Being (very) good at coding doesn't mean you should be put in charge of running a country's finances at the age of 25. Jesus Christ, how is that a controversial opinion?

You expect this kind of delusional arrogance from software engineers themselves. You don't expect other people to buy into it.

Also all the good (morally) coders end up being arrested and then forced to work for the government not sign up to to be a cuck for the tech bajillionaire.

[phonics]

Would a 25 year old really have done any worse than Liz Truss?

Wasn't her plan literally described as 'student politics applied to the real world'?

[Yevrah]

Wasn't her plan literally described as 'student politics applied to the real world'?

Yeah, you're right. All 25 year olds ever would apply student politics principles if given the gig.

[Boydy]

Would a 25 year old really have done any worse than Liz Truss?

Stupid question. Liz Truss got to the position she was able to do the damage in via the mechanisms of our democracy. These lot have not. They are not even appointees done through the right channels by an elected official. Neither is Musk.

Had a 25 year old actually got elected in some way (whether by the public or by their own party), maybe they wouldn't have, who knows.

[Yevrah]

And look, ultimately I've no idea whether this approach will be good, a disaster, or somewhere in between. But... we are where we are and career politicians have consistently proven themselves to be useless, the public have spoken and they want to try something else.

Mad? Perhaps. But when you consider that while prices were through the roof, inequality rampant, the last lot of incumbents were telling people "stop whinging, check your privilege and your pro-nouns. Oh and look, here's Beyonce" can you really blame them? I'm not sure I can.

We just need to sit it out, see what happens and it if really is as bad as some of you are expecting then the like of it won't happen again for a very long time and panic over.

[phonics]

See this is kind of what I'm talking about, you're the one making up arguments based on hypotheticals.

So far they've taken a public budget database offline, stopped funding for the most successful HIV intervention programme thats saved millions of lives, complained that a province in Mozambique is Hamas and removed the ability to file your taxes for free. Your counter-argument is 'Liz Truss was bad'.

[phonics]

And look, ultimately I've no idea whether this approach will be good, a disaster, or somewhere in between. But... we are where we are and career politicians have consistently proven themselves to be useless, the public have spoken and they want to try something else.

The public have quite literally not spoken in any way shape or form.


We just need to sit it out, see what happens and it if really is as bad as some of you are expecting then the like of it won't happen again for a very long time and panic over.

I mean this is quite literally nonsense, this is one of the richest men in the world doing what he wants. What will stop it from happening again.

[Yevrah]

Stupid question. Liz Truss got to the position she was able to do the damage in via the mechanisms of our democracy. These lot have not. They are not even appointees done through the right channels by an elected official. Neither is Musk.

Had a 25 year old actually got elected in some way (whether by the public or by their own party), maybe they wouldn't have, who knows.

OK, Dominic Cummings then, or the special advisors that were all over phone hacking.

[Yevrah]

The public have quite literally not spoken in any way shape or form.

Did I imagine the US election result?

[Pepe]

I can still access free tax file websites...

[Yevrah]

See this is kind of what I'm talking about, you're the one making up arguments based on hypotheticals.

So far they've taken a public budget database offline, stopped funding for the most successful HIV intervention programme thats saved millions of lives, complained that a province in Mozambique is Hamas and removed the ability to file your taxes for free. Your counter-argument is 'Liz Truss was bad'.

You're conflating individual parts of posts into one, rather than dealing with them piece by piece. It's an appalling way to discuss something.

[randomlegend]

You’ve jumped the shark. Using any argument to support your pathological hatred for the Trumpster, no matter how utterly dumb they are. Where was ‘government experience’ useful during the last x years of absolute shite we’ve just lived through? The rotating cavalcade of absolute fuckwits we endured were dripping with it and all absolutely fucking useless.

Maybe, just maybe, someone who seems pretty well placed to do alright in life (given he’s basically a child and on $100k a year already) might be able to cut through the absolute waste and mismanagement these departments will be swimming in. And we all know they will be - don’t even start pretending otherwise.

It's got nothing to do with any of this. It's about the fact the US has just handed it's data and financial security over to a bunch of Elon Musk's 18-25 tech goons and it cannot be undone.

You are abjectly failing to understand what the problem is.

[phonics]

Did I imagine the US election result?

Elon Musk was on the ticket?

[Pepe]

If it was not ELON MUSK would anyone notice or care who is looking at government budgets?

[phonics]

OK, Dominic Cummings then, or the special advisors that were all over phone hacking.

Dominic Cummings was shit and got sacked and literally no-one who did actually ordered the phone hacking suffered any consequences whatsoever!

[randomlegend]

We just need to sit it out, see what happens and it if really is as bad as some of you are expecting then the like of it won't happen again for a very long time and panic over.

Oh my god you are so fucking stupid.

What has already happened cannot be undone. Ever. The American peoples data is irrevocably compromised, as is the system used to control all of their money.

[Yevrah]

Elon Musk was on the ticket?

You see, you (and many others) just don't get it. Trump won, Trump has appointed Musk, your average common or garden human who voted for Trump will be absolutely fine with that, particularly given Trump even told everyone that that was what he was going to do.

I'll happily be proven wrong if there's a poll that shows Republican voters at the last election are against this turn of events, but it won't exist.

[phonics]

If it was not ELON MUSK would anyone notice or care who is looking at government budgets?

Yeah no-one cared about untouchable billionaires being involved in the workings of the state before 2023.

[phonics]

You see, you (and many others) just don't get it. Trump won, Trump has appointed Musk, your average common or garden human who voted for Trump will be absolutely fine with that, particularly given Trump even told everyone that that was what he was going to do.

I'll happily be proven wrong if there's a poll that shows Republican voters at the last election are against this turn of events, but it won't exist.

He's the President not the fucking Holy Roman Emperor. We've been here and done this. It's kind of the point.

[randomlegend]

If it was not ELON MUSK would anyone notice or care who is looking at government budgets?

How are you not getting this. If anyone at any time since the advent of computers did what Musk and his squad did over the last week they would have rotted in prison for the rest of their lives.

Well they wouldn't, because they wouldn't have got beyond the threshold of the building.

But Trump has given him free reign to do whatever he wants, sacking and removing anyone who stands in his way, and the safeguards are either under Republican control and so rolling over for him or are just being ignored with no consequences.

[Yevrah]

Oh my god you are so fucking stupid.

What has already happened cannot be undone. Ever. The American peoples data is irrevocably compromised, as is the system used to control all of their money.

Just let me get this clear. Are you saying the data of all American people ever (both now and in the future) is irrevocably compromised and the system used to control all of their money is a system that will forever be in use and that's irrevocably compromised too?

[phonics]

You see, you (and many others) just don't get it. Trump won, Trump has appointed Musk, your average common or garden human who voted for Trump will be absolutely fine with that, particularly given Trump even told everyone that that was what he was going to do.

I'll happily be proven wrong if there's a poll that shows Republican voters at the last election are against this turn of events, but it won't exist.

There's a poll showing Brexit voters are against the turn in events but you still complain about people saying Brexit is shit. You've just gone full contrarian thinking it makes you the rational person.

[randomlegend]

You see, you (and many others) just don't get it. Trump won, Trump has appointed Musk, your average common or garden human who voted for Trump will be absolutely fine with that, particularly given Trump even told everyone that that was what he was going to do.


This is not how any of this works.

In all normal times, the creation of new government departments required the assent of congress. Trump bypassed that by issuing an executive order to repurpose a different department into DOGE.

For Musk to be appointed to run a government department, he would have to be vetted and it would require congressional approval. Musk would obviously not get that approval because of his business interests and ties to foreign governments.

Trump just installed him anyway, illegally, and there's nothing left to stop him.

It couldn't be more outrageously illegal or undemocratic or just plain insane if it tried

[randomlegend]

Just let me get this clear. Are you saying the data of all American people ever (both now and in the future) is irrevocably compromised and the system used to control all of their money is a system that will forever be in use and that's irrevocably compromised too?

I don't know about all American people EVER, but virtually every American alive, yes. And to your second question, yes, unless they want to completely rewrite the entire system from the ground up.

Which with legacy systems is borderline impossible.

[Boydy]

And look, ultimately I've no idea whether this approach will be good, a disaster, or somewhere in between. But... we are where we are and career politicians have consistently proven themselves to be useless, the public have spoken and they want to try something else.

Mad? Perhaps. But when you consider that while prices were through the roof, inequality rampant, the last lot of incumbents were telling people "stop whinging, check your privilege and your pro-nouns. Oh and look, here's Beyonce" can you really blame them? I'm not sure I can.

We just need to sit it out, see what happens and it if really is as bad as some of you are expecting then the like of it won't happen again for a very long time and panic over.

People on the left were screaming at the Democrats to actually offer anything to the working ("middle" in stupid yank nomenclature) class. But you never listen to them, do you? You're as bad as the centrists themselves. But yeah, the centrist melts failed so now we have to let the far right have a go at slashing the state and selling off anything they can to the oligarchs.

[phonics]

Just let me get this clear. Are you saying the data of all American people ever (both now and in the future) is irrevocably compromised and the system used to control all of their money is a system that will forever be in use and that's irrevocably compromised too?

With read and write access it's almost literally impossible to say that it's not.

[Yevrah]

He's the President not the fucking Holy Roman Emperor. We've been here and done this. It's kind of the point.

Trump ran for President, in running for president he literally told people he was going to put Musk in charge of government efficiency (with the other chap), people voted for him. Trump won. The people spoke.

You might not like what they said, but they said "we want that, thank you very much".

[niko_cee]

Oh my god you are so fucking stupid.

What has already happened cannot be undone. Ever. The American peoples data is irrevocably compromised, as is the system used to control all of their money.

Without really having any sort of view on the matter, this does sound a bit like hyperbole.

In other news my wife tells me he's about to blow up the US/EU data bridge, so that'll be fun for her and her kind.

[Pepe]

The 'database' exists and I assume some people had access to it before MUSK. But they were all saints who would never do anything wrong while MUSK and his younguns are the devil and his demons, therefore we are all doomed for eternity.

[phonics]

Trump ran for President, in running for president he literally told people he was going to put Musk in charge of government efficiency (with the other chap), people voted for him. Trump won. The people spoke.

You might not like what they said, but they said "we want that, thank you very much".

Biden won by more than Trump, do you think people shouldn't have been able to say anything bad about his policies either?

[Yevrah]

This is not how any of this works.

In all normal times, the creation of new government departments required the assent of congress. Trump bypassed that by issuing an executive order to repurpose a different department into DOGE.


Hang on, so Trump did actually do this within the rules?




It couldn't be more outrageously illegal or undemocratic or just plain insane if it tried

What would you say to the argument that it's actually very democratic as Trump told the American people he was going to put Musk in charge of this and they voted for him (presumably to do it)?

[Yevrah]

Biden won by more than Trump, do you think people shouldn't have been able to say anything bad about his policies either?

How have you reached that? I think that when Biden won, the people spoke (and they were essentially saying "get this Covid loon out of power now before he does some serious damage") and I now think the people have spoken in putting Trump in charge. He won the election fair and square and by a much bigger margin than a lot of people were expecting.

People are absolutely free to criticise either or both and that's fine.

[randomlegend]

The 'database' exists and I assume some people had access to it before MUSK. But they were all saints who would never do anything wrong while MUSK and his younguns are the devil and his demons, therefore we are all doomed for eternity.

Because they were not allowed to waltz in and connect random servers to it.

Prior to this, if you so much as plugged a pen drive into one of these computers you'd be hauled up on serious charges.

They have connected it up to their own server. The data is now "out there" and it can never be reclaimed.

There's also a reason government employees with access to incredibly sensitive data and systems are vetted and undergo background checks. Someone like Musk - with ties to Putin and the CCP and his own personal businesses which make him obscenely compromised - would never be allowed to be in a role with this kind of access.

I didn't realise people were genuinely this moronic when it comes to data security.

[phonics]

What would you say to the argument that it's actually very democratic as Trump told the American people he was going to put Musk in charge of this and they voted for him (presumably to do it)?

If you want to do this dumb semantic argument, he actually got less than 50% of total votes.

[Lewis]

Didn't Biden spend his first few days Executive Ordering away half of Trump's previous Executive Orders and then Executive Ordering what his voters wanted? Welcome to the future.

[Yevrah]

Dominic Cummings was shit and got sacked and literally no-one who did actually ordered the phone hacking suffered any consequences whatsoever!

Yes, but they were all unelected and playing an integral role in government, just like Musk. Appointing the World's richest man makes it a bit of an outlier, but in almost every other respect it isn't.

I was watching Maggie and Brian the other night (quite good) and even back then (if the portrayal is to be believed) Thatcher's economic and European policies were being shaped/influenced by some chap outside of the cabinet.

[Yevrah]

If you want to do this dumb semantic argument, he actually got less than 50% of total votes.

I don't, but you do because you simply can't cope with the idea that that many people could vote for him, let alone that he could win an election comfortably.

His win was democracy working, just as it did when he lost the time before.

[phonics]

He won the election fair and square and by a much bigger margin than a lot of people were expecting.

He literally won the vote by a smaller margin than any election in the last 20 years against a snap candidate picked without a primary because the actual candidate was suffering from dementia.

https://i.imgur.com/9V9JVCn.png

It's hardly a mandate to enact yourself as King.

[Boydy]

He did win the election by the rules as they stand. Musk doing what he is now doing is not by the rules.

[randomlegend]

Hang on, so Trump did actually do this within the rules?



What would you say to the argument that it's actually very democratic as Trump told the American people he was going to put Musk in charge of this and they voted for him (presumably to do it)?

If Trump said he was going to cut your wife's head off and fuck it on the lawn of the White House and people still voted for him would you just be like "the people spoke"?

Saying you'll do something illegal then winning an election and doing the illegal thing shouldn't mean there are no longer any consequences for the illegal thing you've done.

[phonics]

I don't, but you do because you simply can't cope with the idea that that many people could vote for him, let alone that he could win an election comfortably.

His win was democracy working, just as it did when he lost the time before.

So, to return to it, what's your point? RL can't be worried and think a 25 year old having read and write access to the social security details, budget and payment systems is bad?

[phonics]

If Trump said he was going to cut your wife's head off and fuck it on the lawn of the White House and people still voted for him would you just be like "the people spoke"?

TBF he's probably had to replace the brooms head once or twice in the past few election cycles anyway.

[phonics]

Yes, but they were all unelected and playing an integral role in government, just like Musk.

And nobody liked it at the time! And he didn't have massive financial conflicts of interest in doing it!

[Pepe]

There's also a reason government employees with access to incredibly sensitive data and systems are vetted and undergo background checks.


The Musk allies who have been granted access to the payment system were made Treasury employees, passed government background checks and obtained the necessary security clearances, according to two people familiar with the situation, who requested anonymity to discuss internal arrangements. While their access was approved, the Musk representatives have yet to gain operational capabilities and no government payments have been blocked, the people said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/us/politics/elon-musk-doge-federal-payments-system.html

Seems like these lads have been vetted and undergone background checks. Crisis averted lads, pack up your stuff.

[randomlegend]

This is more equivalent to if Dominic Cummings was given access to the nuclear codes.

[Pepe]

Saying you'll do something illegal then winning an election and doing the illegal thing shouldn't mean there are no longer any consequences for the illegal thing you've done.

Has any court actually deemed what is going on illegal? Don't really pay much attention outside of what is written in here.

[Yevrah]

If Trump said he was going to cut your wife's head off and fuck it on the lawn of the White House and people still voted for him would you just be like "the people spoke"?

Saying you'll do something illegal then winning an election and doing the illegal thing shouldn't mean there are no longer any consequences for the illegal thing you've done.

Woah there cowboy, back to this bit you missed first:


This is not how any of this works.

In all normal times, the creation of new government departments required the assent of congress. Trump bypassed that by issuing an executive order to repurpose a different department into DOGE.



Now the way you've worded that makes it sound like he exploited a loophole rather than did something illegal. So which is it?

[randomlegend]

It's both. He exploited a loophole to created a new department and then illegally made Musk head of it.

[Pepe]

Now the way you've worded that makes it sound like he exploited a loophole rather than did something illegal. So which is it?

Yeah, that is what I am wondering about. A lot of people calling it illegal, but has a court (the Supreme Court for this, I am guessing) said so?

EDIT: Quick Google search only shows me Democrat congresspeople (lol) and 'academics' (double lol).

[Yevrah]

It's both. He exploited a loophole to created a new department and then illegally made Musk head of it.

Thanks for clarifying.

And I'd agree, that he absolutely did not say that he was going to illegally crown musk, so to have done that is bad.

What I don't get is why isn't this story front and centre on the BBC? They did publish it, but it looked like they'd just lifted the piece from those forest people's article and I've seen nothing on it since. It's absolutely ripe for them so I'm a tad confused. Who is actually reporting on it?

[randomlegend]

Next executive order coming along is to eliminate the Department for Education.

Wonder why a government could possibly want an uneducated public? Hmmmm. Difficult.

[phonics]

Thanks for clarifying.

And I'd agree, that he absolutely did not say that he was going to illegally crown musk, so to have done that is bad.

What I don't get is why isn't this story front and centre on the BBC? They did publish it, but it looked like they'd just lifted the piece from those forest people's article and I've seen nothing on it since. It's absolutely ripe for them so I'm a tad confused. Who is actually reporting on it?

Wired did a good article on it, however this being modern media, it's behind a paywall. This is kind of the intrinsic problem with a non existent entity with undisclosed goals and employees. The only people who are going to be able to get to the bottom of it are boots on the ground investigative reporters, a job that's been largely gutted and replaced with people who rewrite Press Releases.

[phonics]

Yeah, that is what I am wondering about. A lot of people calling it illegal, but has a court (the Supreme Court for this, I am guessing) said so?

I love this concept that an instrinsically political project like the Supreme Court is the burden of proof.

[randomlegend]

In data security terms it's the equivalent of asking "yeah but have the Supreme Court deemed it's illegal to blow up the White House with a homemade bomb?"

[Lewis]

Next executive order coming along is to eliminate the Department for Education.

Wonder why a government could possibly want an uneducated public? Hmmmm. Difficult.

I think they want to go back to local authorities being fully responsible for education rather than not educate people. Anyway, if the Department of Education was only founded in 1979, chances are the average Trump voter is a result of its failure.

[Pepe]

Next executive order coming along is to eliminate the Department for Education.

Wonder why a government could possibly want an uneducated public? Hmmmm. Difficult.

The department of education does not provide education.

I am genuinely interested on this one. Will have to read up on it when details are provided. I am assuming and hoping that protected loans for college will be cut, which will be a very good thing.

[Pepe]

I love this concept that an instrinsically political project like the Supreme Court is the burden of proof.

They are the final word on whether something is legal or not, yes.

[niko_cee]

What's actually in all this for Musk and Co? Seems like a lot of effort and fucking about for a continuation of the kickbacks he was already getting. Are they planning to 'succeed' and commercialise this sort of swingeing government cutting to essentially co-opt/gain control of all Western governments? It's obviously not altruism so it must be something.

[niko_cee]

His idea of solving the issue of the Palestine by, ostensibly, building them a golf course/resort somewhere else and, presumably letting Israel annex the West Bank is, erm, interesting.

[phonics]

What's actually in all this for Musk and Co? Seems like a lot of effort and fucking about for a continuation of the kickbacks he was already getting. Are they planning to 'succeed' and commercialise this sort of swingeing government cutting to essentially co-opt/gain control of all Western governments? It's obviously not altruism so it must be something.

1) The last 3 republicans admins have done as many tax cuts as they can afford. They need to slim the state to get another one.

2) they view literally any government spending as their money.

And the key part which is

3) it is immensely harder to put something into law than it is to remove it. If they eradicate 100 things they don’t like it will take decades to reenact 50.

[Pepe]

3) it is immensely harder to put something into law than it is to remove it. If they eradicate 100 things they don’t like it will take decades to reenact 50.

Surely you can't believe that.

[phonics]

Yes. Bush could literally only get away with the creation of PEPFAR due to 9/11 ratings bump.

Do you think you could get 7 billion a year funding for HIV medication in Africa past this current congress and then senate?

Do you think once removed as it clearly will be the CPFB a branch dedicated to sueing people who rip off consumers will be recreated without the 2008 recession?

[Pepe]

You cannot pass anything through the current congress, whether additive or subtractive. Hence the executive decision ping pong that was mentioned earlier.

[phonics]

So your ‘you cannot be serious’ actually meant ‘if they eradicate 100 things they don’t like none of them will ever come back’ and thought that was refuting my point? You contrarians that think you’re the realists might be even dumber than the base voter.

[phonics]

Pepe since you’re very smart and believe that if the Supreme Court deems something illegal then it is fixed overnight. You don’t need anyone to enforce it it just becomes illegal.

If so, Brown v Board which ruled that segregated schools were illegal in 1954, why were 1 in 6 schools still segregated 25 years later?

[phonics]

Hey since were being taught how things work lets just go to the education sector seeing as that’s next on the chopping block after foreign aid and protecting consumers.

What does the department of education do? It has no say on the syllabus and the majority of its budget is spent on financing low income schools that couldn’t exist without it as the property taxes in bumfuck Mississippi don’t cover it. Better get rid of that because it’s making the kids trans.

The rest of it is spent on disabled kids and special education and the rest on scholarships for smart kids from backgrounds that can’t afford to pay their way into the insanely expensive college system. Sounds terrible.

The people against the three sectors I’ve listed are either manevolent actors or idiots being taken for a ride by the former.

[Pepe]

So your ‘you cannot be serious’ actually meant ‘if they eradicate 100 things they don’t like none of them will ever come back’ and thought that was refuting my point? You contrarians that think you’re the realists might be even dumber than the base voter.


Pepe since you’re very smart and believe that if the Supreme Court deems something illegal then it is fixed overnight. You don’t need anyone to enforce it it just becomes illegal.

If so, Brown v Board which ruled that segregated schools were illegal in 1954, why were 1 in 6 schools still segregated 25 years later?

Not sure what you're on about, so I will just carry on.

[Spikey M]

Jesus. Do none of you cunts sleep?

[Kikó]

Ok I'm ready to argue the details with spikey for the next few hours. Thanks for tuning in listeners.

[Yevrah]

Is this true?

https://youtu.be/Pdw31c6HPCI?si=Vu17lBp0zzP9lAIl

:D

[Bernanke]

What's actually in all this for Musk and Co? Seems like a lot of effort and fucking about for a continuation of the kickbacks he was already getting. Are they planning to 'succeed' and commercialise this sort of swingeing government cutting to essentially co-opt/gain control of all Western governments? It's obviously not altruism so it must be something.

They've been open for a while about what the goals are. Dismantling of the federal state. This video is making the rounds now and looks pretty prophetic having been made last fall:


https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no?si=q_tKCTEHlthmQ1JT

[Magic]

$47k on a transgender opera or $5 trillion dollars on tax evasion by Americas richest. I know what I'd rather stop!

[Ben]

Well then. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/clyn05y9x2xt?post=asset%3A2e069d6e-393c-42e9-8cdc-d05e2fb8d441#post)

[Ben]

USPS also refusing all parcels from China.

[Spikey M]

Ok I'm ready to argue the details with spikey for the next few hours. Thanks for tuning in listeners.

What are we debating today?

[Kikó]

How smart is a 25 year old really? And is Rolling Stone a good source of news?

[Magic]

How smart is a 25 year old really? And is Rolling Stone a good source of news?

How do you pronounce 'Reuters'?

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's almost impossible to say in a Scottish accent.

[Kikó]

Royters

[Spikey M]

I also say Royters, but in the interest of keeping the thread going I am willing to start saying Rou-ters.

[Kikó]

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/federal-health-workers-terrified-dei-website-publishes-list-targets-rcna190711

That'll teach them.

[niko_cee]

The people have spoken alright?

[Magic]

Rrrrrrraychhhhhurrrrsss.

[randomlegend]

https://newrepublic.com/article/191153/trump-musk-treasure-government-breach

Good summary.

[Magic]

You know how Trump is actually quite funny? Musk is beyond the opposite of that. What a desperate loser.

[randomlegend]

US flag being hung upside down at the US state department.