U.S. Presidential Election 2016 (Sponsored by Betty Croker's Hamburger Helper)

[John]

He does consider himself a Christian above all else though, which would make him an entirely different kind of nightmare.

[phonics]

I do find the need to make up Pence quotes weird, the guys a nutter, you don't need to make anything up.

[Henry]

He never said that. When did you actually stop thinking about these things?

:(
He's said lots of crazy stuff. That one sounds like something he would say.

[phonics]

Pro tip: If it's got a Snopes logo on the side, probably not real.

[GS]

He does consider himself a Christian above all else though, which would make him an entirely different kind of nightmare.

Which is fine isn't it, but let's at least stick to things he's actually said and done.

There's no need to promulgate complete bollocks so you can establish your holier-than-thou credentials.

[John Arne]

I just happened to listen to a speech from Trump (great.. the best...(horrid cadence)) and then switched over to see the King of Spain addressing the Houses of Parliament - the fucking difference in statesmanship. The King has a level of English that Trump could only dream of.

[John]

Which is fine isn't it, but let's at least stick to things he's actually said and done.

There's no need to promulgate complete bollocks so you can establish your holier-than-thou credentials.

I agree. It happens with Trump too, the quote where he references Fox News as if it's the go to news source for Republicans three years before it was even available in all states being the most egregious example. That one still pops up fairly regularly on Facebook, and everyone who posts it seems to believe they've found their calling as an investigative journalist.

Henry immediately buying in to that image is a handy illustration of how willing, almost eager he is to believe literally anything negative about someone he's already decided is an arsehole.

[Magic]

I just happened to listen to a speech from Trump (great.. the best...(horrid cadence)) and then switched over to see the King of Spain addressing the Houses of Parliament - the fucking difference in statesmanship. The King has a level of English that Trump could only dream of.

Like May vs Kingbyn.

[ItalAussie]

Which is fine isn't it, but let's at least stick to things he's actually said and done.

There's no need to promulgate complete bollocks so you can establish your holier-than-thou credentials.

Pence is a paid-up member of the loony religious fringe. You just have to read his articles from when he wrote for newspapers. The one where he goes off on the film Mulan as propaganda for allowing women into the military is a bit special.

[Henry]

Some actual quotes from Mike Pence, which I've had my fact checking team verify this time.

“Global warming is a myth.”
“I’m a Christian, a conservative and a Republican, in that order. “
“Time for a quick reality check. Despite the hysteria from the political class and the media, smoking doesn’t kill.”
“Um … I, do I believe in evolution? Ah, I, I, ah … I embrace the, uh — the, uh — the view, ah, that God created the heavens and the earth, the seas and all that’s in them.”’

[Jimmy Floyd]

The evolution/God thing always baffles me. They must be the two easiest views to reconcile and yet nobody ever does. Who but God could have designed a universe where beings adapt to their environment over time.

[Henry]

The evolution/God thing always baffles me. They must be the two easiest views to reconcile and yet nobody ever does. Who but God could have designed a universe where beings adapt to their environment over time.

It's not evolution and God that they can't reconcile. It's evolution and biblical literalism.

[ItalAussie]

Having been raised in some pretty serious 7-day creation biblical churches, I honestly don't believe the inerrant model of scripture is compatible with an old universe. And I spent the best part of a decade fruitlessly trying to reconcile the two in my head, so this isn't coming from a place of ignorance.

It's not just because of the first part of Genesis either. It's the entire philosophy of a fallen world, created in a state of perfection but fallen through human choices. The scriptures treat this idea as a literal fact from start to finish, including ideas and direct statements that came from the prophets, from Jesus in the gospels, and from the letter-writers post-gospel. Christian philosophy is constructed with this idea unavoidably built into the foundations.

Rejecting a young earth is more than just rejecting the first couple of chapters of the Bible. It cuts to the foundation of things like substitutionary atonement and original sin, and when you get to that point you're cutting into the very core of what Christianity is.

[GS]

It depends whether you take the bible literally in all aspects or consider it to reflect the best wisdom of its time. A lot of the doctrine on original sin is attributable to Saint Augustine, but you're going back to the 5th century.

I'd suggest reading the Meier series on the real Jesus, which delves into the gospels in serious detail to work out what can be attributed to the real Christ and what were post-Easter additions by the evangelists.

[GS]

To return to Pence, he's one of the reasons why the Democrats shouldn't be trying to 'get rid' of Trump, as such. Trump's a basic populist with no actual belief in anything but his own celebrity. You could probably make him change his mind if you co-ordinated some of the press of TV coverage. Pence is a true believer, and that's inherently more dangerous to the Democrats.

[Henry]

It's not just because of the first part of Genesis either. It's the entire philosophy of a fallen world, created in a state of perfection but fallen through human choices. The scriptures treat this idea as a literal fact from start to finish, including ideas and direct statements that came from the prophets, from Jesus in the gospels, and from the letter-writers post-gospel. Christian philosophy is constructed with this idea unavoidably built into the foundations.

Although I agree that the issue cuts to the core of what Christianity (particularly a lot of Protestant sects) is about, I'd dispute some of this. Original sin and atonement are Christian concepts that weren't even fully developed until the 5th century (see Augustine). Scripture can be read with them in mind, but it isn't riven through with them from start to finish. Or else Jews, for example, would have these concepts.

EDIT: I see that GS basically said the same thing. Not often we agree, and against Ital!

[ItalAussie]

I specifically mentioned the inerrant model of scripture, which is what the vast, vast majority of evangelical Christians (particularly in the US) follow.

I agree that there are other models of Christianity (although they were strongly philosophically informed by ideas that are often now rejected, which is interesting, but another discussion entirely). However, claiming that these are in any way the dominant cultural form of Christianity just isn't true. There's a reason the likes of Tim Keller, Al Mohler, Chris Tomlin and Hillsong are all so successful, and it's not to do with their subtle theology. But these are the figures who shape the practice of Christianity now.

Trying to make an old universe work with total scriptural inerrancy in its most common form is, I am inclined to believe through exhaustion, basically impossible. If you relax inerrancy, then you can start to fit things together, but that'll probably get you kicked out of any US Baptist church you care to name.

Nutshell: Thoughtful rejection of literal scriptural inerrancy is quite sensible in many cases, and has little to do with mainstream evangelical Christianity.

[Henry]

But it just isn't true that scriptures "treat this idea [the fallen world] as a literal fact from start to finish".
So that isn't anything to do with inerrancy. It's just a doctrine that they like for whatever reason.

I do agree with your general point though. It challenges a core doctrine.

[GS]

Well, yeah. If you adhere to scriptural inerrancy, you're not going to be able to square too many circles. That said, much of the doctrine is based on later writers interpreting the scriptures as they understood them at the time, those views being 'retrospectively' applied, and later generations accepting them - usually because it was the best explanation anybody had come up with up until that point. That some branches of Christianity no longer accept those interpretations or explanations (e.g. Aquinas advocating the first mover theory) doesn't mean they're rejecting fundamental tenets of Christianity.

[ItalAussie]

Well, yeah. If you adhere to scriptural inerrancy, you're not going to be able to square too many circles. That said, much of the doctrine is based on later writers interpreting the scriptures as they understood them at the time, those views being 'retrospectively' applied, and later generations accepting them - usually because it was the best explanation anybody had come up with up until that point. That some branches of Christianity no longer accept those interpretations or explanations (e.g. Aquinas advocating the first mover theory) doesn't mean they're rejecting fundamental tenets of Christianity.Which is fine; there are plenty of other reasonable options aside from literal biblical inerrancy. But if you're discussing the practice of mainstream evangelical Christianity, then the other options aren't what actually happens.

You may think they're doing it wrong, but Tim Keller will outsell Paul Meier thousands of times over. That's contemporary evangelical Christianity as it is actually practiced, rather than the works of intelligent thinkers who like to believe they're steering the ship, but are actually just coming along for the ride.

[Henry]

Meier is not an evangelical. He's a Catholic IIRC.

And I think you're missing the point.

[ItalAussie]

I realise there is intelligent, informed Christianity that has no trouble whatsoever squaring scientific truth with scriptures. But this conversation started because Jim couldn't understand how there could be Christians that couldn't do that, and I'm saying that it's a consequence of the model of scriptural inerrancy that is the dominant force in contemporary evangelical Christianity.

I am very aware there are other models and approaches (I did spend ages trying to get on board with more intellectual Christianity as well, after my break with the mainstream evangelical stuff). But they're also incidental to the conversation, because they aren't the people who have the trouble Jimmy was talking about. I'm very familiar with that form of Christianity, because I was raised in the worst kind of literal evangelicalism, and it took me years to break the mould.

The incidental fact that intelligent Christian thinkers (of which there are plenty, and who have no trouble reconciling science and scripture) have negligible influence on mainstream contemporary evangelical Christianity is an aside, but an aside worth making.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Well evangelicalsm is more of a business than anything with an intellectual basis, as far as I can see.

[phonics]

My favourite Trump dialogue tick is the "A lot of people don't know that" which invariably means "I didn't know that".

For example:
885542467579392000

[John]

'Nobody knew...' is better, because it tends to precede something everyone knows. 'Nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated' is a particular favourite.

[phonics]

Amazed to see that, after his posts earlier in the thread that mert seems to be representing Trump on the Russia thing.


Marc Kasowitz, President Trump’s personal attorney on the Russia case, threatened a stranger in a string of profanity-laden emails Wednesday night.The man, a retired public relations professional in the western United States who asked not to be identified, read ProPublica’s story this week on Kasowitz (https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-russia-lawyer-marc-kasowitz-alcohol-security-clearance) and sent the lawyer an email with the subject line: “Resign Now.’’

Kasowitz replied with series of angry messages sent between 9:30 p.m. and 10 p.m. Eastern time. One read: “I’m on you now. You are fucking with me now Let’s see who you are Watch your back , bitch.”

In another email, Kasowitz wrote: “Call me. Don’t be afraid, you piece of shit. Stand up. If you don’t call, you’re just afraid.” And later: “I already know where you live, I’m on you. You might as well call me. You will see me. I promise. Bro.”

[John]

'Bro' aside, that reads nothing like Mert. It's closer to Ant after a beer and a Vidic compilation.

[Disco]

It's like one of Smiffy's PMs.

[Bernanke]

So two more Russia connections were in the meeting with Junior, which he failed to disclose up until now. One with connections to the GRU, and a lobbyist.

Also present but not yet mentioned:

- Ivan Drago

- a bear

- Shmladimir Shmutin, ordinary USA Rock And Roll Cowboy Guy

- sentient bottle of vodka (denies any connection to Russian government)

[Reg]

On a similar Christianity topic to upthread, if you have Netflix watch Louis CK's new show from 14:28 mins in. https://www.netflix.com/watch/80161109?trkid=14170286&tctx=1%2C0%2Cca0565ec-a113-4719-915b-6f92122c68d6-9809609

And on Trump/Russia, Fox news funny stupidity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCDSqgs8qNo

[phonics]

The healthcare bill failed. Again. It's almost like it's hard to repeal something that was already a Republicans dream healthcare bill.

In other news, this is a wonderful quote.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFBQbdcXYAE7F1i.jpg:large

[Henry]

Where's that from?

[phonics]

This piece from a guy who's wrote about Bannon joining the campaign

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/joshua-green-steve-bannon-trump-campaign

[John Arne]

This piece from a guy who's wrote about Bannon joining the campaign

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/joshua-green-steve-bannon-trump-campaign

The problems with articles like that, is that it could easily just be made up bullshit. Some low level staffer wanting to get a quick $20k so makes up some shit about Trump losing his temper.

[phonics]

Yeah, publishers love paying 20k to low-level staffers to get sued for slandering the most powerful man in the country.

[Bartholomert]

The healthcare bill failed. Again. It's almost like it's hard to repeal something that was already a Republicans dream healthcare bill.

In other news, this is a wonderful quote.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFBQbdcXYAE7F1i.jpg:large

Wut. It failed because Republican 'moderates' would rather get re-elected than unravel an entitlement.

[John Arne]

Yeah, publishers love paying 20k to low-level staffers to get sued for slandering the most powerful man in the country.

Surely we have learnt by now that journalists and politicians staffers have been known to make shit up - on both sides. A story like this comes and goes in 24hrs - Trump will probably never hear about it.

[Shindig]

So ... they're not going to take ownership of something 20 million American people now have some reliance on? Nah, lads. You can't feasibly do that. You can say it, but you can't do it.

[Henry]

The suggestion by Trump is that they now repeal Obamacare without putting in a replacement. I imagine that would cause chaos.

[ItalAussie]

The suggestion by Trump is that they now repeal Obamacare without putting in a replacement. I imagine that would cause chaos.

My political instincts have been off for a little while now, but I still don't think that'll fly. I honestly thought they'd end up pressuring the moderates on this one though, so who knows.

[phonics]

They've openly admitted that the 'attempt' to do that under Obama was purely symbolic knowing he'd veto it. It won't fly.

[Spoonsky]

lol at Mitch McConnell, the owl-faced cunt.

[Bartholomert]

lol at Mitch McConnell, the owl-faced cunt.

You're laughing now, just wait until Democrats are called out on their ludicrous 'Medicaid for all!' agitations.

[phonics]

Not that it matters as anyone who is Medicare/Aid for all will be in prison anyway due to this thing.

http://i.imgur.com/1DcUHj0.png


Now THAT'S economic freedom.

[GS]

There was quite a hilarious example the other day of Ken Loach complaining that some band were going to play in Israel, until it was pointed out to him that his films had been screened in Israel repeatedly during his supposed boycott.

[Bartholomert]

That's fukin retarded.

[phonics]

That's fukin retarded.

Israel and bombing the shit out of anyone near them, the only two bipartisan issues.

[Spoonsky]

You're laughing now, just wait until Democrats are called out on their ludicrous 'Medicaid for all!' agitations.

When the Democrats control the White House and both houses of Congress and still can't pass a fuckin thing (yet), I'll let you lol.

[Spoonsky]

I'm not even being smug, it's not like the Democrats are in a good position at all. Everyone I know is complacent and just assumes that Trump will lose in 2020 without realizing that the Democratic party is even more divided than the Republicans. It's just lol that the Republicans have been going on about the evils of Obamacare since the beginning of time and now they have the chance to change it and they trip on their shoelaces.

[Henry]

And how do the thought police intend to detect "support" for the boycott?

The courts would throw that out anyway.

[Bartholomert]

Israel and bombing the shit out of anyone near them, the only two bipartisan issues.

I generally support the idea of Israel as an ally but that sort of state-sponsored suppression of speech / freedom of association / liberty generally is absolutely sickening. I would feel the same way about a bill banning anti-Palestinian boycotts.

[GS]

The Supreme Court would strike it down, presumably.

[John]

John McCain has brain cancer. Trump will be laughing his head off.

[Bernanke]

"I like people that don't get brain cancer."

[Spikey M]

Bomb Bomb Bomb, bomb bomb McCain.

[Magic]

Must have been all that microwaving.

[ItalAussie]

Now THAT'S economic freedom.
Are they members of Congress? You can basically be an illiterate mouth-breather and get elected to Congress. It is not where they keep their best and brightest.

[John]

Trump said Mueller would be 'crossing a red line if he delved into Trump family finances unrelated to Russia'. So of course the first thing Mueller did was expand the probe to include his other business dealings. It's like telling the police they can look in all your pockets except the back right one, they can't look in there and they shouldn't ask why. He is indescribably thick.

[Adamski]

Sounds like Muellers definitely turned a Corner.

[Henry]

He also revealed that he doesn't know the difference between health insurance and life insurance, stating that it costs about $12 per year.

[Boydy]

He's got dementia.

[John]

He's got dementia.

Almost certainly, which makes it all the more incredible that he's taking hour long meetings alone with Putin and his translator. I wouldn't let my grandmother take a meeting alone with someone who came to the door selling double glazing.

Supposedly his first action after leaving that meeting was to stop selling arms to the anti-Assad crowd in Syria, which Putin has wanted for years, so he's very openly and obviously being manipulated. It's quite sad, really, because seeing him so chuffed when he got to sit in that fire engine the other day he's basically just a toddler.

[Reg]

Also think he's got dementia. I posted about it last month or something when I was reading some pretty convincing stuff on it. You can also just watch an interview with him from the 80s then watch him now. The difference is striking.

[Henry]

If that's true, how much longer can he function?

[Shindig]

How long did Ronnie go?

[Byron]

Sean Spicer has quit.

[John]

His replacement follows one hundred and seventy thousand people on Twitter and has publicly said that Russia is a 'legitimate threat to American interests'. This should be fun.

[John]

888482564851335169

All the :Ds.

[Magic]

Any cunt that works in 'communications' or 'PR' is a disgusting, untrustworthy, shameless individual.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This bloke is straight out of Parks and Rec.

[phonics]

If that's true, how much longer can he function?

Reagan was pretty much a vegetable 2.5 years into his first term and served 8 years. As long as you cut off enough access, it doesn't matter.

[Henry]

Yeah, Reagan was well protected from himself. But Trump clearly is more difficult to do that to...

[Shindig]

All it takes is an outgoing member of staff to spill the beans. It's easier than impeachment.

[Magic]

Also think he's got dementia. I posted about it last month or something when I was reading some pretty convincing stuff on it. You can also just watch an interview with him from the 80s then watch him now. The difference is striking.

His message is exactly the fucking same. Principals!

[Bartholomert]

888482564851335169

All the :Ds.

They are self-parodying to fuck with the media. I think.

[John]

You hope.

[Byron]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40692709

You have to wonder at what point he'll realise that attacking the 'leaks' only serves to give the impression that they are true.

[GS]

889217183930351621

The bastards!

[John]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40692709

You have to wonder at what point he'll realise that attacking the 'leaks' only serves to give the impression that they are true.

He regularly talks about things being 'leaked' and calls them 'fake news' in the same sentence. He just doesn't know how words work.


889217183930351621

The bastards!

Protecting him is pretty much all they've done for the last six months.

[John Arne]

Not sure why I have only just discovered this, but 14 year girls can get married in North Caroline if they are pregnant :D

What a country.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/north-carolina-law/north-carolina-marriage-age-requirements-laws.html

[Lewis]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/25/donald-trump-speech-boy-scouts-jamboree

How people can not enjoy this is beyond me.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The William Levitt 'story' :D

'And I saw him at a cocktail party and it was very sad. Because the hottest people in New York were at this party.'

[Magic]

This is a much abbreviated version

Fuck sake.

[ItalAussie]

I mean, he's the President of the United States, so it's a bit rich for me (ie. a nobody) to say that I feel a little bit sorry for him, but he's clearly both wildly insecure about a lot of things, and also losing his marbles in a really public way.

On the other hand, he's a complete tit, so it's a little bit schadenfreudery.

[GS]

We're not American, so it's great theatre if nothing else.

[Bartholomert]

Tbf I don't think a neurotypical human would take on the Establishment, which was absolutely necessary, in the way he has.

[Henry]

Please explain how he "taken on the establishment" other than to call them nasty names at times?

[GS]

At least he doesn't support taking on the establishment through armed resistance. Right, Henry, mate?

[Kikó]

GSbot strikes again.

[GS]

Yes, I suppose we could abandon reason and fact instead but that wouldn't be very sensible would it.

[Spoonsky]

He literally disgusts me.

[Shindig]

Boy Scouts putting America first is great. Their private organisation, contrary to belief, is not a line of the United States' defense. :D

Nor does such a line of defense concept exist.

[phonics]

John McCain is an absolute scumbag, Even if we ignore him bringing Sarah Plain to relevancy, him coming out of his fucking brain tumor scan to vote against a shitty middle of the road healthcare insurance subsidy because the government shouldn't be paying for peoples healthcare is disgusting. The guy was born to a Navy Officer (Free healthcare) joined the army (Free healthcare) and then became a Senator (Free healthcare).

He pretends to be a maverick while voting the party line every time. The guy's never paid a health bill in his life. I'll dance on his grave. Scum.

[Lewis]

Yeah alright.

[GS]

Many jobs in America come with health insurance. He has a job, therefore he gets health coverage. Just because 535 federal representatives have health coverage doesn't automatically mean that 320m Americans should.

Also, lol at the idea that serving members of the armed forces shouldn't get health coverage.

[phonics]

Also, lol at the idea that serving members of the armed forces shouldn't get health coverage.

Yep, the clear meaning of my post was that even less people should get health coverage. I think it's a good thing that 25 million people will lose coverage.

TBF, the only good thing to come out of this whole thing is that the concept of health insurance won't exist anymore and the Dems will have nothing to argue for but single payer.

[Bartholomert]

He literally disgusts me.

Oh shut it pussy. Look at all these based patriots shouting "We Love Trump":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSele0D2m5g

[Bartholomert]

Yep, the clear meaning of my post was that even less people should get health coverage. I think it's a good thing that 25 million people will lose coverage.

TBF, the only good thing to come out of this whole thing is that the concept of health insurance won't exist anymore.

They're not losing coverage you mongoloid, they are choosing not to buy it because THAT IS THEIR PREROGATIVE IN A FREE COUNTRY.

[phonics]

They're not losing coverage you mongoloid, they are choosing not to buy it because THAT IS THEIR PREROGATIVE IN A FREE COUNTRY.

That's like saying people starve because they choose not to buy food. I pray you impregnate someone only for their to be health complications and it bankrupting you.

[Bartholomert]

That's like saying people starve because they choose not to buy food. I pray you impregnate someone only for their to be health complications and it bankrupting you.

Yep. If you have the money to buy food and you choose not to do it, that's not the governments responsibility that's YOUR responsibility.

[phonics]

I think people not having the money to pay for it is more the issue there.

Hey, if you want to force Walmart to pay wages that don't leave employees able to apply for food stamps, I'm happy to hear it.

You can't troll your way out on this one because it's such a simple issue. People don't make enough money to pay for health insurance, so wait until last minute and go to A&E. Hospital pays bill. Your insurance goes up. It's that simple.

Prevention = Cost-effective Treatment. You see it across a whole range of health issues.

[Bartholomert]

I think people not having the money to pay for it is more the issue there.

Hey, if you want to force Walmart to pay wages that don't leave employees able to apply for food stamps, I'm happy to hear it.

You can't troll your way out on this one because it's such a simple issue. People don't make enough money to pay for health insurance, so wait until last minute and go to A&E. Hospital pays bill. Your insurance goes up. It's that simple.

Prevention = Cost-effective Treatment. You see it across a whole range of health issues.

They CAN afford it...they are paying for it right now.

The vast majority of people 'losing' (3/4ths) their health insurance are just healthy individuals who don't go to the doctor anyways choosing not to buy health insurance without the penalty. Look at the numbers:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/449765/leaked-cbo-numbers-73-gop-coverage-losses-caused-individual-mandate-repeal

[phonics]

Walmart employees can afford stuff but still qualify for food stamps? Interesting.

This is upping your premiums so that a minority of a minority can get a tax cut. Just admit it. It feels better.

Edit: Damn, actually just opened the link and it's written by Avik Roy, who runs a think tank but won't say where he gets the money for it from and is known as the person who wrote the bill. I'm shocked he would be such a backer of it.

Got any independent evidence? No wait I just remembered the bill hasn't even been released or scored by an independent body.

I simply don't understand a world where Single Payer works for Senators, Congressman and Veterans but not for anyone who hasn't murdered people in the government of the days name.

[GS]

This is a truly risible contribution.

[Lewis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_aLESDql1U

See how far you can get.

[John Arne]

Billy Ings?

[Bartholomert]

Walmart employees can afford stuff but still qualify for food stamps? Interesting.

This is upping your premiums so that a minority of a minority can get a tax cut. Just admit it. It feels better.

Edit: Damn, actually just opened the link and it's written by Avik Roy, who runs a think tank but won't say where he gets the money for it from and is known as the person who wrote the bill. I'm shocked he would be such a backer of it.

Got any independent evidence? No wait I just remembered the bill hasn't even been released or scored by an independent body.

I simply don't understand a world where Single Payer works for Senators, Congressman and Veterans but not for anyone who hasn't murdered people in the government of the days name.

What are you talking about. Premiums will go down.

Single payer DOESN'T work for veterans, are you delusional, the VA is insanely broken and inefficient:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Health_Administration_scandal_of_2014

[Henry]

Saying premiums will go down doesn't mean that they will.

And when they don't, you'll just blame Democrats, or immigrants or someone else.

[Bartholomert]

Saying premiums will go down doesn't mean that they will.

And when they don't, you'll just blame Democrats, or immigrants or someone else.

Capitalism says they will. If they don't I'll stand corrected.

[Henry]

If capitalism worked like that, then costs would already be lower than in other countries and they aren't.

[randomlegend]

Has Trump actually banned trans people from the army...?

"Decisive and overwhelming victory" :D

He talks like a computer game character.

[niko_cee]

I particularly enjoyed the use of the term 'lethality'.

[Magic]

'Private Parts is not a rank' had me on the floor.

[GS]

In the interests of balance:

890233643179716608

Not that I particularly care either way, but this strikes me as a perfect example of the need for evidence over "feeling". Just because something strikes you as a "nice" idea doesn't mean it's good policy. I don't know enough about it either way to reach a personal view, but suggesting it's a travesty before one has engaged with the facts / evidence strikes me as being a bit daft.

[Lewis]

You can't have mentally ill people around guns lads.

[randomlegend]

Reading through that guys tweets he seems like a total cunt.

[GS]

Why's that, then?

Presumably you have experience of a combat zone and can refute the seemingly fair points he's making.

[randomlegend]

Presumably you have experience of working in a hospital and can refute the seemingly fair points doctors make.

[GS]

My points were financial and misrepresenting the reasons for their strike.

Now, answer the question.

[randomlegend]

Now, answer the question.

Fuck off :D

[Magic]

What's your experience of battlefield 2 Migraine? Xx

[randomlegend]

None at all, I'm rubbish at FPSes tragiclolson Xx

[niko_cee]

Presumably being on a "12 man firebase in the middle of nowhere in the desert" is a problem for a transgender person, but why? Would the redbloods not be able to restrain themselves?

[GS]

We really are completely fucked if the collective moron crowd continue to consider 'feeling' sufficient basis for policy decision.

[Bartholomert]

If capitalism worked like that, then costs would already be lower than in other countries and they aren't.

Our current system isn't a market economy.

[Yevrah]

Where's 'feeling' being cited?

[Bartholomert]

Presumably you have experience of working in a hospital and can refute the seemingly fair points doctors make.

So doctors for the entirety of human history had it wrong but because some doctors in some Western countries they changed their mind on the topic under overwhelming political pressure now it has the seal of endorsement of SCIENCE?

Fucking lol.

[randomlegend]

So doctors for the entirety of human history had it wrong but because some doctors in some Western countries they changed their mind on the topic under overwhelming political pressure now it has the seal of endorsement of SCIENCE?

Fucking lol.

You've completely and utterly got the wrong end of the stick here, but your point is lol as fuck regardless.

Presumably you still believe homosexuality a disease? You probably do tbh.

[Bartholomert]

You've completely and utterly got the wrong end of the stick here, but your point is lol as fuck regardless.

Presumably you still believe homosexuality a disease? You probably do tbh.

It's a psychological disorder.

[mikem]

GS
Meh, I had six years in between Desert Storm and Bosnia. Most of the people in my unit were damaged prior to service. Broken homes, abusive parents, poverty, join up or go to jail (literally), being told you were the kid who was never amounting to shit, or there from Brazil / Guam / the Philippines for a green card. Everyone is 17-24 and mentally unprepared to tie their shoes. People want to blame the people who break but it is like cancer. It helps us explain how it can't happen to us. The vast majority of jobs are non-combat anyway. Let people serve who want to serve.

[Bartholomert]

GS
Meh, I had six years in between Desert Storm and Bosnia. Most of the people in my unit were damaged prior to service. Broken homes, abusive parents, poverty, join up or go to jail (literally), being told you were the kid who was never amounting to shit, or there from Brazil / Guam / the Philippines for a green card. Everyone is 17-24 and mentally unprepared to tie their shoes. People want to blame the people who break but it is like cancer. It helps us explain how it can't happen to us. The vast majority of jobs are non-combat anyway. Let people serve who want to serve.

Why should my taxpayer money go towards mutilating someones genitals? That's fucking stupid.

[Lewis]

The list (http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html) of things the military can reject you for is good.


Deformities of the skull, face, or jaw of a degree that would prevent the individual from wearing a protective mask or military headgear.

Unlucky, Idiotmouse/Tobias.

[Spoonsky]

In the interests of balance:

890233643179716608

Not that I particularly care either way, but this strikes me as a perfect example of the need for evidence over "feeling". Just because something strikes you as a "nice" idea doesn't mean it's good policy. I don't know enough about it either way to reach a personal view, but suggesting it's a travesty before one has engaged with the facts / evidence strikes me as being a bit daft.

Maybe I'm being thick, but what point is the tweet making and how is it relevant?

[ItalAussie]

It's so clearly a ploy to distract people from the healthcare stuff. Couldn't be more blatant without Trump pulling out a sign that says "LOOK OVER THERE".

Something stupid but reliably newsworthy; something that'll get back on side the religious social conservatives who do sometimes worry about the obvious and dramatic negative consequences of the health bill, but are reliably distracted by the thought that someone, somewhere, might be doing something with their genitals of which they disapprove.

[Lewis]

Maybe I'm being thick, but what point is the tweet making and how is it relevant?

It's a thread mate, the tl;dr version of which is that doing a war puts everyone under massive stress and makes them borderline mental, so chucking somebody with all of their actually mental tranny issues into the mix would push them/everyone around them over the edge.

[ItalAussie]

It's a thread mate, the tl;dr version of which is that doing a war puts everyone under massive stress and makes them borderline mental, so chucking somebody with all of their actually mental tranny issues into the mix would push them/everyone around them over the edge.

Presumably the military has mental health checks in place already. They don't just hand you a gun and a hat when you walk in the recruiting booth.

(It's the US, so they might. But they shouldn't.)

[Spoonsky]

Gotcha, read all of it now. Seems like it's based on feeling instead of engaging with facts and evidence.

[Lewis]

Yeah, you would think it would be fine if assessed on a case-by-case basis. The Israelis let them in, and they're literally the last people on Earth who would force POLITICAL CORRECTNESS on their armed forces for the sake of it.

[Magic]

It's a thread mate, the tl;dr version of which is that doing a war puts everyone under massive stress and makes them borderline mental, so chucking somebody with all of their actually mental tranny issues into the mix would push them/everyone around them over the edge.

Haven't they got over their issues if they are full trans?

[Spoonsky]

It would take some balls to get your weed whacked tbf. They might be the mentally strongest of all.

[mikem]

Why should my taxpayer money go towards mutilating someones genitals? That's fucking stupid.

And I don't like prisons.

Suck it up snowflake.

[Bartholomert]

And I don't like prisons.

Suck it up snowflake.

Prisons are necessary to maintain order and enforce rule of law in our civil society. Sex reassignment surgery is not.

[Bartholomert]

It would take some balls to get your weed whacked tbf. They might be the mentally strongest of all.

Most of them regret it and it doesn't improve their suicide rate in the slightest. It should be illegal, and it's enabling the mental illness of an individual who is not in a position to give informed consent.

[mikem]

Yeah, you would think it would be fine if assessed on a case-by-case basis. The Israelis let them in, and they're literally the last people on Earth who would force POLITICAL CORRECTNESS on their armed forces for the sake of it.

There is screening when you sign up and predeployment screening. It is a mass organization so I'm sure it is more sledgehammer than scalpel. But didn't the Ottomans have eunuchs? They did ok.

[randomlegend]

Don't forget the unsullied.

[Lewis]

That list of disqualifiers includes 'Absence of both testicles, either congenital, or acquired, or unexplained absence of a testicle', as well as 'Penis, amputation of, if the resulting stump is insufficient to permit normal micturition'. Unlucky.

[randomlegend]

Jesus Christ...

[Offshore Toon]

Where are all these depressed trannies? They always look like they're having a great time when I see them.

[mikem]

Hilariously, two of our brightest Congressmen, Steve King and Louis Gohmert, had a whole death of western civilization bit on camera last week that centered around how the gays in the Turkish army couldn't push the cannons up the hill at the Battle of Vienna.

They were competing with Dana Rorbacher (who cares how his name is spelled) asking for more time in a NASA committee meeting to specifically ask twice if they thought they would find evidence of an ancient super civilization on Mars.

We have some real winners in congress.

[Shindig]

Prisons are necessary to maintain order and enforce rule of law in our civil society. Sex reassignment surgery is not.

Bleaching your skin isn't necessary either. No matter how much your dad insists. :dc:

[Henry]

Our current system isn't a market economy.

Ergo, unless society is entirely restructured to look like libertopia, you've got a get-out clause when the policies fail.

[-james-]

Why should my taxpayer money go towards mutilating someones genitals? That's fucking stupid.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/wonk/wp/2017/07/26/the-military-spends-five-times-as-much-on-viagra-as-it-would-on-transgender-troops-medical-care/

[Spikey M]

Isn't Viagra used by mountain climbers and others that need to function at altitude? I didn't read the article (because I don't really care) but is there a chance that's why they're using it?

You know, rather than them being a load of floppy Merts.

[-james-]

I read it was mostly for veterans. The point is though that framing it as a financial thing is a load of bollocks, they just don't like transexuals.

[ItalAussie]

538 reckon it's possibly part of a deal to get someone onside in the Senate vote.

Which makes you wonder who, given all that they could have asked for, hates the idea of transsexuals serving in the military so much as to make it their thing. The right is really messed up.

[John Arne]

In more serious news, these eyebrows, tho....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhXNDfmhD3g

[Jimmy Floyd]

Every time I think our government are being twats, a cursory glance at this thread reassures me they are in fact a paragon of good practice.

[GS]

Best argument you'll ever have for our current constitutional settlement.

[Bartholomert]

I read it was mostly for veterans. The point is though that framing it as a financial thing is a load of bollocks, they just don't like transexuals.

There are legitimate financial expenditures, and there are illegitimate financial expenditures.

[Bartholomert]

Ergo, unless society is entirely restructured to look like libertopia, you've got a get-out clause when the policies fail.

It's a sliding scale, right now it's nowhere even close, but you move the dial far enough and you will get consumer-benefiting competition.

[-james-]

There are legitimate financial expenditures, and there are illegitimate financial expenditures.

So the emotional well-being of a trans person is an illegitimate expentidure, a.k.a. you don't like them.

[Henry]

And it goes without saying that killing people for your government is unquestionably legitimate.

[Bartholomert]

So the emotional well-being of a trans person is an illegitimate expentidure, a.k.a. you don't like them.

1. You don't have a right to employment within the army, there are plenty of requirements prior to being allowed to enlist including mental health assessments.
2. There is no evidence to suggest individuals with gender dysphoria actually experience positive changes in their mental state following gender-reassignment surgery. There is evidence to suggest individuals suffering from erectile dysfunction experience positive changes from using viagra.

I personally don't care what trans people do in their own life. But, my taxpayer dollars should not go towards elective treatments for their mental illness, and if their condition detracts from our combat capabilities, I do not want them in the army. It's not about bigotry, it's about what is best for the army, sorry if that conflicts with the emotions of certain people.

[-james-]

I'm fine with you not wanting them in the army, I just think it's lol to dress it up as a financial issue when it's chump change.

[Spikey M]

If it's purely a financial matter, why not just discontinue funding their treatment. Then they can continue to serve if they so wish.

When you decide to just kick them out of the Army it almost comes across as if you're using it as an excuse.

[ItalAussie]

If it's purely a financial matter, why not just discontinue funding their treatment. Then they can continue to serve if they so wish.

When you decide to just kick them out of the Army it almost comes across as if you're using it as an excuse.

It's the whole "employer-provided health insurance" thing, right? That whole seething pile of insanity has screwed up the US so badly.

[Spikey M]

It's the whole "employer-provided health insurance" thing, right? That whole seething pile of insanity has screwed up the US so badly.

I thought employers over there opted out of all sorts? Especially contraceptives et al?

[bruhnaldo]

We still get insurance through our jobs. Ironically, we wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise.

[Spikey M]

Yes, but if employers can refuse it covering contraception, what is stopping them from not covering hormone replacement pills etc?

[bruhnaldo]

It's not really up to the employer, though? It's up to the insurance company what they do and don't cover?

Apologies if I'm missing it?

[ItalAussie]

It's not really up to the employer, though? It's up to the insurance company what they do and don't cover?

Apologies if I'm missing it?

I thought it was up to the employer which set of benefits they provide, within limits set by the ACA, unless they get special treatment for being religious (re: the Hobby Lobby case).

It's still a pretty messed up system. I don't see what business my employer would have choosing my healthcare provider.

[GS]

Not that I agree with their system, but if the employer is paying for it you're going to have to accept that some limitations will exist. You can always go and work somewhere else.

If you want to pay for it yourself, then fine.

[bruhnaldo]

I thought it was up to the employer which set of benefits they provide, within limits set by the ACA, unless they get special treatment for being religious (re: the Hobby Lobby case).

It's still a pretty messed up system. I don't see what business my employer would have choosing my healthcare provider.

Ok ya ok that's right. They generally will offer you a few different plans through their group rate, that's true.

[Bartholomert]

If it's purely a financial matter, why not just discontinue funding their treatment. Then they can continue to serve if they so wish.

When you decide to just kick them out of the Army it almost comes across as if you're using it as an excuse.

100% agree tbh.

[Kikó]

Not that I agree with their system, but if the employer is paying for it you're going to have to accept that some limitations will exist. . You can always go and work somewhere else.

If you want to pay for it yourself, then fine.

You always peddle this. Not everyone is an accountant who can pick and choose jobs and quality of employer.

[Spikey M]

If I were an accountant I'd want the least health insurance possible.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If I were an accountant I'd kill my family and then turn the gun on myself - by far the most economical long term option.

[GS]

Perhaps they could start their own company, then, and it won't be a problem.

Not every employer exists so that their staff can hoover up ever increasing amounts of free cash flow in benefits and salary. Most are small businesses, where private individuals have assumed significant personal financial risk. They must be allowed to exercise as much control as possible over how they spend their own money. No staff member is "entitled" to everything they may want, and their redress is to find alternative employment or start their own company.

The rhetoric from some really does overlook that it's the people starting and running private sector companies that generate tax revenues and create the jobs in the first place.

[Spikey M]

GS is right, people that aren't a) business owners or b) self-employed should have absolutely no rights. Broken leg Roy? Can't afford to feed your kids? Lisa needs braces? Tough shit. Should have started your own business, because there can never be too many freelance window cleaners.

[bruhnaldo]

It honestly just annoys me that a lot of this "data" has been (presumably) wildly corrupted for public consumption.

The amount of people that "got on" healthcare benefits because of Obamacare but then subsequently lost said benefits because they never made the first initial payment has to be astronomical considering the amount of said patients I deal with on a daily basis.

But if you put a neat bow on the initial sign up and use that number to come up with the idea that "x million people will lose health insurance!" it sounds a lot better than discussing the actual issues of the Obamacare programs to begin with.

Nevermind the fact most of these folks also opted-in to bronze/silver level plans simply because of the federal mandate/penalty attached to being uninsured. Bronze/silver plans being the cheapest and least comprehensive when it comes to actual coverage.

In all actuality, if people wanted to rail against "BIG BUSINESS!" or whatever they'd assume folks remain uninsured so that hospital corporations have to treat them and subsequently write off large portions of these bills.

For example, the uninsured discount at my facility works out to 87% off of the final bill. 87% ! How the fuck can these billion dollar corporations manage to continuously turn a profit when 87% of the charges can be written off without a blink of an eye?

And I'm sure many of you have heard me pining on about the madness that is "facility/insurer contracts". You can have a 120k bill and the "contractual rate" will leave your insurance to pay a measly 10k whilst you pay a 2k deductible.

What in the fucking world kinda shit is this?!

Anyways.

[Lewis]

'The Mooch' seems like quite the geezer.

[GS]

GS is right, people that aren't a) business owners or b) self-employed should have absolutely no rights. Broken leg Roy? Can't afford to feed your kids? Lisa needs braces? Tough shit. Should have started your own business, because there can never be too many freelance window cleaners.

You would have to be a complete moron for that to be your interpretation. However, employees have no right to demand more and more from their employers.

[Boydy]

You ever think of starting your own business, GS?

[Spikey M]

It's called exaggerating for effect dear boy.

[John]

Why should my taxpayer money go towards mutilating someones genitals? That's fucking stupid.

The military spends five times as much on viagra as it does on the healthcare needs of trans people. In tax terms it's a negligible amount of money.

EDIT - New page, and this has been covered. As you were.

[GS]

You ever think of starting your own business, GS?

No, but I recognise that requires accepting certain restrictions. Like no mandatory tea breaks.

[bruhnaldo]

I'm not trying to be THAT guy but I don't understand how it's a "healthcare NEED" for someone to transition from male to female.

I'd imagine these people WANT to be female. I WANT things in life, too. Doesn't necessarily mean I'm entitled to it?

I just don't really understand how it's the government's job to ostensibly give people the avenue to, for lack of a better word, mutilate their physical bodies and/or chemical makeup?

A woman wants bigger boobs because it makes her feel more like a woman, that's cosmetic elective surgery.

A man wants bigger boobs because it makes him feel more like a woman, that's somehow now the responsibility of the government?

Please don't just bash me, help me understand? I truly do not understand.

[Spikey M]

They don't want to be women/men, they feel like they ARE women/men. Do you think you'd want surgery if you were born without a dick?

[Lewis]

They could use the money currently devoted to attracting women into male jobs.

[bruhnaldo]

They don't want to be women/men, they feel like they ARE women/men.

I feel like a panda bear, does that make me a panda bear or a person with a mental illness?

Again, I'm honestly not even trying to be difficult about it. I just feel like some things you can't just pick and choose.

I can't go around "identifying" as Latino just because I really like Spanish music? Why is "gender" the only thing that we throw out any semblance of logic and go strictly on "feeling" for?


Do you think you'd want surgery if you were born without a dick?

In the sense of having no genitalia whatsoever? I mean what would be the point? So I can feel special? I still wouldn't have a dick, I'd have a prosthetic(?).. ?

Again, I'm really not trying to be difficult. I have the utmost sympathy for these folks cause I don't necessarily believe that it's just some kinda fetish thing and that some folks really, truly believe they are not the gender associated with their body. I just don't know if coddling(for lack of a better word) that desire is the right answer?

[Spikey M]

It seems like you very much do understand and have already reached your position, but I'm nowhere near arsed enough about the subject to try to convince you otherwise. You asked someone to explain, I did, I'm out.

[ItalAussie]

You would have to be a complete moron for that to be your interpretation. However, employees have no right to demand more and more from their employers.

Let's remember that US companies are required by law to provide health insurance. It's a stupid system, but it's been the system for longer than we've been alive.

The ACA and other health laws have provisions specifying what must be provided under that insurance. Employees have the right under the law to expect their healthcare to meet certain standards. The fact that their employer is on the hook for that is a stupid artifact of a stupid system.

[ItalAussie]

I feel like a panda bear, does that make me a panda bear or a person with a mental illness?

Again, I'm honestly not even trying to be difficult about it. I just feel like some things you can't just pick and choose.

I can't go around "identifying" as Latino just because I really like Spanish music? Why is "gender" the only thing that we throw out any semblance of logic and go strictly on "feeling" for? If you've ever met someone who suffers from dysphoria, you'll know it's a lot more than just a want or a feeling. It's likely that there's a whole lot of social conditioning involved, rather than it being necessarily inherent, but there's undeniably something there. Being transsexual is not generally seen as a mental illness, but dysphoria is generally seen as a mental condition, I believe. But in terms of treatment, it doesn't really matter which side of that divide you fall on. The whole point of medical treatment is to deal with the condition, and the easiest way to deal with dysphoria is to align the physical to the mental, rather than the other way around.

If you are prepared to acknowledge that there is some kind of mental condition involved, even if you simply think it's a disorder, the whole point of treatment is to fix it. If someone experiences dysphoria, then it's a legitimate mental condition for which the most successful treatment is to change the body to match the mind, rather than to change the mind to match the body (brains are more complicated than plumbing, unsurprisingly).

[Lewis]

'Pissheads should gain weight to increase their tolerance.'

[bruhnaldo]

But if we both accept there is some kind of mental condition involved, wouldn't it also make some sort of sense for that person to seek continued treatment in a controlled environment as opposed to seeking continued treatment, let's say, in the midst of a potential deployment or something similar?

Let me also just say I don't agree with the transgender ban on the military. I think if you want to serve this country you should be able to do so, so long as you are physically and mentally fit.

Where transgender folks fall on the "mentally fit" scale though is a serious issue that should be looked at beyond bargaining chips for other bills (as someone mentioned in this thread before).

It's all very fucked and there are no simple solutions but I certainly appreciate the conversation.

[ItalAussie]

But if we both accept there is some kind of mental condition involved, wouldn't it also make some sort of sense for that person to seek continued treatment in a controlled environment as opposed to seeking continued treatment, let's say, in the midst of a potential deployment or something similar?

Let me also just say I don't agree with the transgender ban on the military. I think if you want to serve this country you should be able to do so, so long as you are physically and mentally fit.

Where transgender folks fall on the "mentally fit" scale though is a serious issue that should be looked at beyond bargaining chips for other bills (as someone mentioned in this thread before).

It's all very fucked and there are no simple solutions but I certainly appreciate the conversation.

Presumably that's why there are professionals who evaluate everyone that signs up to the military. Like many conditions, if it's manageable, then I imagine they'll let you in. All the more so if someone has completely transitioned in the past.

It's not like the entry requirements are a "You Must Be This Tall To Ride" sign and that's it.

If medical professionals have cleared someone, I really don't think we need a second opinion from Donald Trump. I say leave it to the doctors, and stop being busybodies because we're uncomfortable with what people do with their own plumbing.

[Shindig]

It's not something I can really weigh in on or comprehend. When you hear transgenders talk about cross-dressing from the age of eight and stuff, it does baffle me as to whether the kid's just experimenting or making a choice. You then have a decade beyond that where puberty actually hits and they start to think more and more about their sexuality. I know sexuality isn't gender but there is no greater shock in a child's body than puberty.

As acceptance grows, the opportunity to talk about it should become easier. As for the ban, it's bullshit. Men and women can shoot. Transgenders fall into both these categories. Bases covered.

[Bartholomert]

If you've ever met someone who suffers from dysphoria, you'll know it's a lot more than just a want or a feeling. It's likely that there's a whole lot of social conditioning involved, rather than it being necessarily inherent, but there's undeniably something there. Being transsexual is not generally seen as a mental illness, but dysphoria is generally seen as a mental condition, I believe. But in terms of treatment, it doesn't really matter which side of that divide you fall on. The whole point of medical treatment is to deal with the condition, and the easiest way to deal with dysphoria is to align the physical to the mental, rather than the other way around.

If you are prepared to acknowledge that there is some kind of mental condition involved, even if you simply think it's a disorder, the whole point of treatment is to fix it. If someone experiences dysphoria, then it's a legitimate mental condition for which the most successful treatment is to change the body to match the mind, rather than to change the mind to match the body (brains are more complicated than plumbing, unsurprisingly).

Please send me any study which shows that sexual reassignment surgery has a positive effect on mental well-being for transsexuals.

[Shindig]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/

[Boydy]

No, but I recognise that requires accepting certain restrictions. Like no mandatory tea breaks.

I was just asking a question, no need to be a dick.

[randomlegend]

He's been acting a condescending cunt more and more lately, to the point it's actually just quite unpleasant.

[Bartholomert]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/

Self-reported and:

"These findings must be interpreted with caution, however, because fewer than half of the questionnaires were returned"

[ItalAussie]

Don't forget to check out references 2, 5, 6, 7, 20, and 21, which report positive results (as does 3, although this isn't directly referenced in the article). The other early 20's references find positive responses in specific areas relating to self-image and sexual comfort, although the question subjects are far more targeted, so probably can't be treated as broad outcomes.

The response rate is pretty consistent with sociological literature, but is low compared to controlled medical trials, which is why it has to be acknowledged in a medically-oriented journal. It's not ideal, but the responses are consistent with the existing literature, so it's not tripping too many alarm bells there.

[Pepe]

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-conservative-case-for-universal-healthcare/

[GS]

'The Mooch' seems like quite the geezer.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/anthony-scaramucci-called-me-to-unload-about-white-house-leakers-reince-priebus-and-steve-bannon

:drool:

[Magic]

Prince Rebus.

[ItalAussie]

This administration is one bad mood-swing away from going full Colonel Kurtz.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qDAvtgvdk7s/T1UDpretLNI/AAAAAAAAAAY/oQwqzwURW6I/s1600/kurtz-apocalypse-now.gif

[Bernanke]

http://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/anthony-scaramucci-called-me-to-unload-about-white-house-leakers-reince-priebus-and-steve-bannon

:drool:


“I’m not Steve Bannon, I’m not trying to suck my own cock,”

:lol:

[John]

There has to be a not insignificant chance that Fandango is an agent, taking down Trump from the inside. Telling the public that you've seen him be great at many things is probably the easiest and quickest way to get deep into his good graces, and he's trying to get the Chief of Staff binned having been in the door less than a week. If he isn't an agent, he should be, because he couldn't possibly be doing a better job.

[-james-]

It's one of the best things I've ever seen.

[mikem]

Um, were people taking shit about McCain earlier?

If only Trump had built a stock of goodwill ....

[Bernanke]

McCain with the face turn. MAVERICK.

Edit:

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/63/04/04/13386018/4/1024x1024.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Cxo3XxG.gif

[Queenslander]

Where is Turk Mert?

[-james-]

John McCain is an absolute scumbag, Even if we ignore him bringing Sarah Plain to relevancy, him coming out of his fucking brain tumor scan to vote against a shitty middle of the road healthcare insurance subsidy because the government shouldn't be paying for peoples healthcare is disgusting. The guy was born to a Navy Officer (Free healthcare) joined the army (Free healthcare) and then became a Senator (Free healthcare).

He pretends to be a maverick while voting the party line every time. The guy's never paid a health bill in his life. I'll dance on his grave. Scum.

hehe

[Queenslander]

:D

[Henry]

Apart from anything else, it's hard not to get pleasure from watching them fail and fail and fail again.

[ItalAussie]

I have to say, this is the first time I can remember McCain putting in a decisive (or even near-decisive) vote against the Republican line. Did not see that coming.

That said, I wouldn't get cocky, because McCain could turn on a dime. It's infuriating that the Democrats compromised all over the shop to get 60 votes, when the Republicans just steamroll the process to bring it in at 51.

EDIT: That said, if McCain votes yes, then I reckon Heller votes no. Sasse maybe as well.

EDIT II: I have to say, it's been an impressive amount of discipline from the Democrats to not have a single member even look like considering stepping out of line on this vote. Someone in there is cracking the whip hard.

[Bartholomert]

Pathetic.

We will hold the House and expand the Senate majority in 2018. This isn't done yet.

[Queenslander]

How will the Republicans expand their senate majority?

Which States will flip?

[GS]

It's almost as if phonics didn't understand what was actually happening but still decided to SEETHE about it anyway.

The left in a nutshell.

[Henry]

Pathetic.

We will hold the House and expand the Senate majority in 2018. This isn't done yet.

Do you understand that taking health insurance away from people is in fact, not popular?

[ItalAussie]

The ACA public response is fascinating. Every provision it contains bar one (the individual mandate) is 20+ points more popular than the law itself.

Almost as if the negative response is kneejerk partisan hackery. But surely not.

[GS]

The ACA public response is fascinating. Every provision it contains bar one (the individual mandate) is 20+ points more popular than the law itself.

Almost as if the negative response is kneejerk partisan hackery. But surely not.

It's almost as if people (on both sides) don't really understand the arguments.

It's rather infuriating, but it's exploited by both sides to further their agendas. This is the consequence of an infantilised electorate.

[Henry]

Insisting that both sides are equally bad is fallacious. The Democrats are far from perfect, but their approach is better than the wrecking ball attitude that the Republicans have adopted.

[Bartholomert]

Do you understand that taking health insurance away from people is in fact, not popular?

You understand that unsustainably rising premium prices are not in fact, popular? You understand the vast majority of people who will 'lose' health insurance are people can currently afford health insurance but will voluntarily choose to no longer keep their health insurance because the penalty is removed?

[Bartholomert]

The ACA public response is fascinating. Every provision it contains bar one (the individual mandate) is 20+ points more popular than the law itself.

Almost as if the negative response is kneejerk partisan hackery. But surely not.

Goods and services have costs. The market operates on the basis of certain basic principles. It doesn't matter how much Leftists cry about equity and access, you can't change objective reality on the basis of emotions.

[phonics]

You understand that unsustainably rising premium prices are not in fact, popular? You understand the vast majority of people who will 'lose' health insurance are people can currently afford health insurance but will voluntarily choose to no longer keep their health insurance because the penalty is removed?

"The CBO score found that their proto-skinny repeal would increase the number of uninsured people by 16 million over baseline estimates by 2026, would decrease the projected federal deficit by $142 billion over the same time period, and would increase premiums in the exchanges by 20 percent."

[Bartholomert]

How will the Republicans expand their senate majority?

Which States will flip?

Indiana, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, and West Virginia, all of which voted for Mitt Romney in the 2012 election and Donald Trump in the 2016 election, as well as Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan, all of which voted for Donald Trump in the 2016 election. Democrats are fucked.

[Bartholomert]

"The CBO score found that their proto-skinny repeal would increase the number of uninsured people by 16 million over baseline estimates by 2026, would decrease the projected federal deficit by $142 billion over the same time period, and would increase premiums in the exchanges by 20 percent."

Skinny repeal is the first step, the next step would be to work with House Republicans to pass a more comprehensive bill.

[ItalAussie]

If the Republicans have half a brain, they'll drop healthcare like it's hot and move straight onto tax reform. Healthcare repeal is unpopular, and making them more unpopular by the day, whereas tax reform will go through easily enough - massive tax cuts at the top can be eased through by incremental tax cuts in lower brackets to keep people happy.

Then they get runs on the board and look like they have some kind of legislative agenda that isn't completely defined by reaction to the previous administration.

[GS]

Insisting that both sides are equally bad is fallacious. The Democrats are far from perfect, but their approach is better than the wrecking ball attitude that the Republicans have adopted.

I'm not talking exclusively about this issue. Democrats were happy to ignore the consequences / precedent of Obama issuing executive orders that were certainly sketchy in terms of his remit. They weren't overly exercised about it because they liked the outcome and it aggrieved the other side.

In the same way that Tony Blair ran a personal fiefdom from the Downing St sofa, and then complains about lack of parliamentary input to the Brexit process.

You can't have it both ways.

[Bartholomert]

If the Republicans have half a brain, they'll drop healthcare like it's hot and move straight onto tax reform. Healthcare repeal is unpopular, and making them more unpopular by the day, whereas tax reform will go through easily enough - massive tax cuts at the top can be eased through by incremental tax cuts in lower brackets to keep people happy.

Then they get runs on the board and look like they have some kind of legislative agenda that isn't completely defined by reaction to the previous administration.

You need to pay for the tax cuts somehow so that it is deficit neutral, otherwise you need 60 votes.

[Henry]

Ital shouldn't have deleted his post upthread. He seems to do that a lot when he's said something that might cause a ruckus.

[ItalAussie]

Ital shouldn't have deleted his post upthread. He seems to do that a lot when he's said something that might cause a ruckus.

You spotted that. I do sometimes do that in order to avoid unnecessary conflict. :D

No point leaving it undone if the cat got out though.


It's almost as if people (on both sides) don't really understand the arguments.

It's rather infuriating, but it's exploited by both sides to further their agendas. This is the consequence of an infantilised electorate.


GS's commentary seems to broadly fall into either a vehement "100% typical of the left and only the left" and a shrugged "well, I guess both sides do it", depending on whether it's the left or the right being idiots on any given issue.

[mugbull]

https://imgur.com/a/2EjjA

The Donald subreddit is the single biggest group of losers anywhere in the world, which is pretty representative of the subset of (educated) people who support him

[GS]

You spotted that. I do sometimes do that in order to avoid unnecessary conflict. :D

No point leaving it undone if the cat got out though.


A fine example of reading what you want to read, and not what's actually being said.

[mugbull]

A fine example of reading what you want to read, and not what's actually being said.

No, he's right. You're a fine example of how some people build up these grandiose visions of themselves inside their heads while remaining completely self-unaware on the outside. Your emotional intelligence is non-existent, and so you have no idea what your biases are.

[GS]

Ital's point can only disintegrate further with you throwing your considerable intellectual weight behind it.

[mugbull]

You have more intellectual weight than I do? You really think that?

[phonics]

I hate polls but

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DF1IfzgXcAEqmvt.jpg:large

[John Arne]

My dad could have your dad.

EDIT: Phonics and his stupid massive image.

[phonics]

It's almost as if phonics didn't understand what was actually happening but still decided to SEETHE about it anyway.

The left in a nutshell.

890947876326711296

sums my thoughts up on it. Happy to be wrong though.

[randomlegend]

Jesus GS, reel it in. You're acting like a complete nob at the moment.

[Bernanke]

at the moment.

:rosebud:

[Lewis]

People do seem to be going out of their way at the moment to respond to GS in the daftest way possible, so good for him.

[Pepe]

Can we swap Harold for GS?

[John]

It's been all systems go on the plebs having a pop at him since at least the election.

[Pepe]

Typical of the left.

[randomlegend]

Yeah poor old bullied GS, fighting the good fight.

[mugbull]

The fuckwits all take sides with each other, which is the main problem. This forum needs a civil war.