U.S. Presidential Election 2016 (Sponsored by Betty Croker's Hamburger Helper)

[phonics]

Even if true (which I don't think it is) I literally couldn't give less of a shit. The entire economic balance of life is fucked due to the rich repeatedly stealing from everyone else. That's the issue with the world.

[Yevrah]

Nick Griffin was on Question time in 2009.

Which the left also failed miserably at dealing with given the whole show was a questioning cavalcade of his abhorrent opinions (which anyone still supporting him by that point was obviously fine with, therefore pointless), rather than exposing him for the awful politician he was.

[randomlegend]

Bofe sides m9

[Yevrah]

Even if true (which I don't think it is) I literally couldn't give less of a shit. The entire economic balance of life is fucked due to the rich repeatedly stealing from everyone else. That's the issue with the world.

I agree. The best trick the devil ever did was to pretend that the biggest divides are caused by race or sex, when it's clearly classs/wealth you're born into rather than your skin colour etc. So we all spend 10 years arguing about that, get absolutely nowhere with it and all the time the rich get richer, no doubt while fuelling up the roflcopter.

[Lofty]

He's pardoned a load of people who tried to stage a violent insurrection and he also tried to steal an election.

Two things which even ten years ago would've been seen as completely fucking insane.

Somehow now everyone is just hand-waving.

The pardoning stuff is mental, especially when cops died on the back of that and the people trying to break in were packing those restraints so absolutely no doubt what was going to happen if they had succeeded. I do wonder what happens with them all now, reportedly in Russia criminals who volunteered to fight in Ukraine are back in Russia committing crimes and acting untouchable because they are 'war heroes', could see similar with these people.

Trump has also 4D chessed Biden into setting a precedent regarding pre-emptively pardoning family and key government figures so the way has been paved for full corruption and crime with no consequences.

[randomlegend]

Biden set a precedent? Didn't Trump pardon about 300 of his closest family, friends and attorneys on the way out the door last time?

[niko_cee]

I’d also mind less if it was outright hatred that was being silenced but we’ve just lived through years of being told that even questioning immigration policies, for example, is racist, which absolutely bonkers.

Whilst this may or may not be the case [I don't think it is but I understand the sentiment] is it not also a bit bonkers that for the duration of that same period and longer we have had governments with fairly overtly anti-immigration/anti-foreigner rhetoric and simultaneously pro-immigration policies? How were they not cancelled sooner by one side or the other? 14 years of hard work trying to get net migration into the tens of thousands has yielded what? How are Nige and co in their now not racist zeitgeist going to make the difference when they get in in five years? Look over here hand waving?

There is no spoon.

[Kikó]

Yes, but what’s controversial also changes with the times.

The left’s and your entire argument seems to boil down to “well I don’t like those views so I agree with the current consequences of them being aired”, which is remarkably short sighted.

I’d also mind less if it was outright hatred that was being silenced but we’ve just lived through years of being told that even questioning immigration policies, for example, is racist, which absolutely bonkers.

No my argument boils down to having hateful positions that are shouted on public platforms can impact your employment. No one forces Laurence Fox or me or you to post your opinions online. That can have an impact on potential employment if the person hiring you thinks you're detrimental to the company being hired for.

[Yevrah]

Whilst this may or may not be the case [I don't think it is but I understand the sentiment] is it not also a bit bonkers that for the duration of that same period and longer we have had governments with fairly overtly anti-immigration/anti-foreigner rhetoric and simultaneously pro-immigration policies? How were they not cancelled sooner by one side or the other? 14 years of hard work trying to get net migration into the tens of thousands has yielded what? How are Nige and co in their now not racist zeitgeist going to make the difference when they get in in five years? Look over here hand waving?

There is no spoon.

Well, we could use being labelled as racist for voting Brexit if that sits better with you as an example of this madness.

But to answer your question, my suspicion is that it was in everyone's interest whether they were in government or might be to try and mask the zero underlying growth (or actually significant decline) in GDP per capita by just chucking more people at it to get overall GDP up. No one, including this government seems to have a plan as to how to do it otherwise.

Other aspect is that mass immigration benefits business, business circles that politicians move in and who doesn't want to do a favour for a mate?

[Yevrah]

No my argument boils down to having hateful positions that are shouted on public platforms can impact your employment. No one forces Laurence Fox or me or you to post your opinions online. That can have an impact on potential employment if the person hiring you thinks you're detrimental to the company being hired for.

But again, it's not just hateful opinions (by any sensible measure) we're talking about is it.

[niko_cee]

Yes, Brexit is a much better example of the extremely poor read of the country that infects a large portion of the progressive establishment, but even that isn't localised to that wing of thought. Giggles, for example, is a full adherent to the Little Englander theory, and he's a reactionary bigot who wants to set fire to brown people apparently. That said, if Little Englander is taken to mean just not liking the EU on base level it is probably a quite good/accurate read of British public opinion c.1975-2015.

[niko_cee]

This brewing row over Mandelson could be quite interesting.

Can you not have an ambassador? Doubt the UK would have the balls for it, or the US 'deep state' would allow it, but it would be an interesting look for them to accept ambassadors from enemy states but not a closest ally.

[Magic]

No my argument boils down to having hateful positions that are shouted on public platforms can impact your employment. No one forces Laurence Fox or me or you to post your opinions online. That can have an impact on potential employment if the person hiring you thinks you're detrimental to the company being hired for.

My old boss was forced in to retirement because he kept posting tin foil hat stuff on LinkedIn of all places lol.

Edit: in fact it was probably the most sane content on the platform. He still does it now.

[Boydy]

1881513509680505199

He's a prick (and he's surrounded by far more dangerous cunts) but he is funny.

[Bernanke]

Yeah, the saving grace is that there really is no one like him. Unless The Rock suddenly starts calling for Mexican cartel heads, none of the supporting cast will be able to continue his legacy.

[Pepe]

The US really has a cultural stronghold of the world, doesn't it?

[randomlegend]

These pardons for the January 6th rioters are genuine Banana republic level insanity. Someone serving 22 years for inciting and organising insurrection just walking free. 1600 people. It's utterly, utterly mental.

[niko_cee]

Those people who died were just faking it for political purposes, get over it.

[randomlegend]

Don't worry though he won't actually do anything crazy, it's all talk, it was fine last time, stop being ridiculous.

[Shindig]

It is all talk. It just so happens crazy people act on it.

[Pepe]

Those people who died were just faking it for political purposes, get over it.

Wasn't it like four rioters and one cop? Not minimizing the cop's death, but it was not a massacre or something.


Don't worry though he won't actually do anything crazy, it's all talk, it was fine last time, stop being ridiculous.

The pardons are pretty wild, I'll give you that. That it is even an option is mental. Still don't see how it affects you on the other side of the world.

[randomlegend]

It is all talk. It just so happens crazy people act on it.

Releasing them isn't talk.

[niko_cee]

Wasn't it like four rioters and one cop? Not minimizing the cop's death, but it was not a massacre or something.



The pardons are pretty wild, I'll give you that. That it is even an option is mental. Still don't see how it affects you on the other side of the world.

I have literally no idea but agree the whole pardon process is mad. Promising to be tough on dangerous criminals and then releasing 1600 on day 1 is also 'pretty wild'.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The pardons are wild until you see that Biden used the last hours of his presidency to pardon all of his family members against crimes they may or may not have committed up to that point, and then you realise that the presidential pardon is a proper banana republic / medieval king weapon and the founding fathers were making quite a lot of assumptions with it.

[randomlegend]

The pardons are pretty wild, I'll give you that. That it is even an option is mental. Still don't see how it affects you on the other side of the world.

People being emboldened to do this stuff in the most powerful nation and democracy on earth sets the stage for it to happen elsewhere.

[randomlegend]

The pardons are wild until you see that Biden used the last hours of his presidency to pardon all of his family members against crimes they may or may not have committed up to that point, and then you realise that the presidential pardon is a proper banana republic / medieval king weapon and the founding fathers were making quite a lot of assumptions with it.

Yes, Biden being able to pardon his family is also wrong. As it was when Trump did it.

No, it is not even remotely in the same universe of insanity as Trump pardoning 1600 people who staged a violent attack on the Capitol.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I mean, it can't happen here because we don't have a president and thanks to Oliver Cromwell our king doesn't have pardoning powers. But I'm sure 'the stage is set' nonetheless.

[Shindig]

Didn't that already get tested over here in the summer? We just don't pull off shit like the Capitol riot.

[Pepe]

The pardons are wild until you see that Biden used the last hours of his presidency to pardon all of his family members against crimes they may or may not have committed up to that point, and then you realise that the presidential pardon is a proper banana republic / medieval king weapon and the founding fathers were making quite a lot of assumptions with it.

Yeah, I meant all of the pardons. I like most of the Constitution but that is just shit.

I read something about 25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada. That'll affect my weekly avocado purchase. Trump out.

[Spikey M]

Still don't see how it affects you on the other side of the world.

Americas today tends to be our tomorrow.

[Pepe]

No, it is not even remotely in the same universe of insanity as Trump pardoning 1600 people who staged a violent attack on the Capitol.

Do you know the crimes that the people who Biden pardoned allegedly committed? Hard to tell what is worse without knowing that, but maybe you do. I sure as hell don't.

[Pepe]

Americas today tends to be our tomorrow.

So you think your prime Minister will start pardoning criminals left and right?

[Giggles]

The whole pardoning thing is fucking mental in itself.

[randomlegend]

I mean, it can't happen here because we don't have a president and thanks to Oliver Cromwell our king doesn't have pardoning powers. But I'm sure 'the stage is set' nonetheless.

I wasn't referring specifically to pardoning people, merely leaders being emboldened to wield their powers way beyond the boundaries of what's previously been attempted to their own ends.

"Yeah but nobody is ever actually going to do that" is very much a tenet being tested.

[Spikey M]

So you think your prime Minister will start pardoning criminals left and right?

I have no idea what the legalities of that would even be. But, I mean in a wider context, anyway. We tend to follow America's lead on many things, and people are concerned because as funny as it is watching the freakshow, we don't want our own British version of one in 4 years time.

[Giggles]

Americas today tends to be our tomorrow.
Hopefully so, because your today tends to be ours. So, sense eventually I'd hope.

[randomlegend]

Do you know the crimes that the people who Biden pardoned allegedly committed?

None. He's pre-emptively pardoned them to prevent Trump coming up with something to go after them for - as Trump did last time and found no criminal wrongdoing. They haven't actually been accused of anything.

The pardon of Hunter previously was related to gun and tax charges i.e. nothing vioent.

[niko_cee]

I wonder what would have happened if the riot had been January 6th 1821?

I'm assuming attempts to pull that shit over here in the past would have been met with the whole hung, drawn and quartered business, although maybe not in the 1800s. 1600s yes.

Cromwell is properly underrated [the Irish despise him don't they?], how did the yanks end up such a bunch of retards after it was his sort that started up their country?

[Pepe]

The American Constitution is quite good as far as books of laws go. This pardon thing a shit outlier that a proper Congress could take care of, but the current lot could never pass a constitutional reform, no matter how obviously good.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Unwritten constitutions :cool:

[Lofty]

So you think your prime Minister will start pardoning criminals left and right?

No but it's likely our next prime minister will be your current president and his billionaire mate's pick.

[Lewis]

Not sure we can complain about politically-motivated pardons in light of certain approaches to certain crimes that have been in the news recently.

[Dquincy]

"Throw out love to the crowd", apparently. Which might be more cringe than doing a Nazi salute.

It's his weird facial expression when doing it that gets me. He's comical gold.

[Dquincy]

You are massively unaware of swathes of people. You live in a fantasy world hence why I mentioned that Quincy post.

There are thousands of people in this country alone with swastika tattoos. Do you think they don’t quite understand?
You come across as an emotional retard incapable of discussing opposing views without getting somewhat emotive on the matter. A real shame. Have you always been like this?

[Dquincy]

They’d soon grow bored and start to hoot and holler over your posts from your over inflated and pathetic sense of self Importance and intelligence. You’re just another inbred failure from Hull. Enjoy your life you total dirtbag.

Surely you see the irony in your post, right?

[Dquincy]

This election has really hit them hard. More than I could ever have even hoped for really.

:D this is a cracking read. :lol:

[randomlegend]

Team Quiggles has got to be a new low for intelligence when it comes to TTH double acts.

Barely a step up from inanimate objects.

[Shindig]

It's his weird facial expression when doing it that gets me. He's comical gold.

It's the quickness of the arm raise that gets me. He's really keen.

[Dquincy]

Team Quiggles has got to be a new low for intelligence when it comes to TTH double acts.

Barely a step up from inanimate objects.

Stick to posting photos of food, mate.

[phonics]

You come across as an emotional retard incapable of discussing opposing views without getting somewhat emotive on the matter. A real shame. Have you always been like this?

Emotional retard > actual retard.

[Dquincy]

Emotional retard > actual retard.
If we're both retards, perhaps we can be friends?

[randomlegend]

Stick to posting photos of food, mate.

They are more intelligent than you as well to be fair.

[phonics]

If we're both retards, perhaps we can be friends?

I’d rather blow my brains out.

[niko_cee]

Just don't go to Texas.

[randomlegend]

https://i.imgur.com/84cQqOx.png

This is so good. Their wording makes absolutely zero biological sense whatsoever.

[Shindig]

Moments like this make you realise a forum meet-up is impossible. :D

[randomlegend]

I bet we'd all get on fine in real life.

[Dquincy]

1881513509680505199

[Dquincy]

1881422081331761588
Musk :D

[Dquincy]

1881557788524171536

:lol:

[niko_cee]

That is quality.

The stony face of the sword's owner and then the other one getting his ready in case Melania wants to join in makes it.

[Shindig]

It's going to be one hell of a ride. Unless he dies tomorrow.

[randomlegend]

1881557788524171536

:lol:

That's some impressively homo-erotic imagery.

[Boydy]

Melania actually looks happy for once.

[Lewis]

lol he stripped John Bolton of his security detail. Priorities for the new Golden Age.

[Pepe]

That little dance of his is top quality stuff.

[phonics]

Moments like this make you realise a forum meet-up is impossible. :D

I've met the people I like on the forum multiple times.

[igor_balis]

lol he stripped John Bolton of his security detail. Priorities for the new Golden Age.

Lol is he the guy who sat next to the guy from cumtown on some weird fox news chat show? That was pretty cool.

[igor_balis]

I've met the people I like on the forum multiple times.

<3

[Lofty]

So he pardoned Ross Ulbricht aka Dread Pirate Roberts who was convicted of murder for hire, and the pastor who was giving it big licks at the inauguration has launched his own crypto coin :D

[Yevrah]

https://i.imgur.com/84cQqOx.png

This is so good. Their wording makes absolutely zero biological sense whatsoever.

Where were you with the ‘zero biological sense’ take over the last 10 years?

[Yevrah]

Not sure we can complain about politically-motivated pardons in light of certain approaches to certain crimes that have been in the news recently.

Ouch. Game, set and match with that one.

[Spikey M]

https://i.imgur.com/84cQqOx.png

This is so good. Their wording makes absolutely zero biological sense whatsoever.

Doesn't it? The Y chromosome is present at the point of conception. Saying it doesn't kick in until later doesn't change that.

[Yevrah]

Either way, such an egregiously selective use of science.

[Giggles]

Science wouldn't be top of the list for someone who probably thinks the number of genders is in double digits.

[Spikey M]

I couldn't really give a shit about the law change, but using it as a backdoor to ban abortion when these people don't give a single fuck about the child once it's born, is pretty scummy, if that is the intent here. You're definitely going to need a better counter argument than "they're not a boy until 6 weeks" though. Most people - if they're not actively trying to get pregnant - don't know they're pregnant until after then anyway, for starters.

[randomlegend]

Doesn't it? The Y chromosome is present at the point of conception. Saying it doesn't kick in until later doesn't change that.

Nobody produces any reproductive cells at the point of conception so their way of defining what sex is is incompatible with the point at which they are defining it from.

Having a Y chromosome doesn't automatically mean you'll be born phenotypically male.

Etc.

[randomlegend]

Where were you with the ‘zero biological sense’ take over the last 10 years?

Huh? I'm not giving an opinion on the trans debate. I'm saying their way of trying to word this has resulted in them coming up with a definition which biologically is total nonsense.

[Spikey M]

Nobody produces any reproductive cells at the point of conception so their way of defining what sex is is incompatible with the point at which they are defining it from.

Having a Y chromosome doesn't automatically mean you'll be born phenotypically male.

Etc.

That's a massive reach. It's like saying the child might be born without 2 legs, therefore children don't have 2 legs.

The sperm is an X or a Y before it even leaves your chap.

[-james-]

I can't wait to hear from Ross Ulbricht. Rare Donny W.

[Shindig]

The main problem is it being in black and white. If the law isn't technically correct, the law is useless in court.

[randomlegend]

That's a massive reach. It's like saying the child might be born without 2 legs, therefore children don't have 2 legs.

The sperm is an X or a Y before it even leaves your chap.

No it isn't. There are far more people around than you realise with disorders of sexual differentiation. If you are writing laws, they need to actually be applicable to all people.

As I also said, their basic premise of defining sex by which reproductive cells they produce also makes no sense "at the point of conception" and for some people never will. What about people do don't produce any reproductive cells?

As Shindig says. Technically and biologically the way that law is worded is nonsense so it won't hold up.

[Pepe]

Wording aside what, exactly, is the law?

[Pepe]

I hereby direct the Administrator of the General Services Administration, in consultation with the Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy and the heads of departments and agencies of the United States where necessary, to submit to me within 60 days recommendations to advance the policy that Federal public buildings should be visually identifiable as civic buildings and respect regional, traditional, and classical architectural heritage in order to uplift and beautify public spaces and ennoble the United States and our system of self-government.

Now that is the kind of law I can get behind. Someone should convince him that the US should build gigantic statues surpassing the Chinese ones. Show them who is the boss.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm trying to imagine what would have to happen before such a law or even sentiment were passed over here. It would probably involve the mass murder of thousands of civil servants.

[niko_cee]

The only thing that would happen would be a significant transitory shift in the supply/demand price dynamic for hanging baskets.

[niko_cee]

I was wondering who the nutter on Newsnight was yesterday and I see he was the QAnon Shaman. Madness peaked when he suddenly lurched into a Matthew McConaughey style southern drawl in an attempt to end the interview. Absolute batshit.

Also interesting on the pardoning front that the guy who 'bear sprayed' [wtf?] the cop who died got let out early, having been sentenced to 80 months. Why months? Who knows, it's like they are allergic to sensible use of numbers. Thirty-two hundred. Anyway, that seems like quite a light sentence for seriously assaulting an officer in the execution of their duties, particularly in the light of the fact that they then died.

I can see how the lunatic fringe might accept these sorts of things, but presumably, given the MASSIVE MANDATE DT has, not all of his supporters can think this sort of shit is acceptable, or is it just *shrug* and move on?

How does the above square with:


The order promises that Trump’s attorney general will seek capital punishment for “all crimes of a severity demanding its use”, specifying that the US will seek the death penalty in every case involving murder of law enforcement and a capital crime committed by an undocumented person, “regardless of other factors”. Trump has also pledged to pursue the overruling of longstanding US supreme court precedents that limit the scope of capital punishment.

Are they just going to spend the next 4 years litigating the fallout from all these executive orders?

[Pepe]

I think that the cop is considered to have died from 'natural causes', which probably explains the light sentence.

Courts will spend the next few months/years saying lol can't do that, yes

[niko_cee]

At least those courts have got their heads screwed on (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15znkk12xjo).

[Spikey M]

:D

[niko_cee]

With the third term shenanigans already underway, are we ready for Trump v Obama in 2028? TLC deathmatch.

Although I see the amendment precludes that as you can only have another term if you haven't had two consecutively already. :D

I mean, these people.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/01/23/heil-musk-projected-onto-german-tesla-factory/

lol.

[randomlegend]

Poor Musk and his autism making him be all awkward and accidentally speak at a German far right rally.

[Magic]

There's too much going on to keep track.

[Spikey M]

Yeah, can we atleast post links?

[randomlegend]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/elon-musk-appears-video-german-far-right-campaign-event-2025-01-25/?utm_source=reddit.com

[Jimmy Floyd]

Much like Obama's disastrous attempt to intervene in the Brexit referendum, it will have the opposite effect to what he hopes. No one in Europe takes kindly to being lectured by self-satisfied yanks.

[Magic]

Much like Obama's disastrous attempt to intervene in the Brexit referendum, it will have the opposite effect to what he hopes. No one in Europe takes kindly to being lectured by self-satisfied yanks.

He's not a Yank.

[Spikey M]

He basically is.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He's more yank than the yanks.

[Giggles]

Not much wrong with his message. Certainly not to warrant the far left shrieking.

[Spikey M]

His message being "immigrants are bad apart from the thousands if Indians I bring into the country because I don't want to pay American wages".

[Jimmy Floyd]

That wage point is very much their Achilles heel. If you're a top boy tech bro / vulture capitalist / northern textile mill owner circa 1870, nothing is as offensive to you as the idea of minions earning well despite not possessing the unique and innate genius that you yourself demonstrate daily.

[Yevrah]

It should be everyone’s Achilles heel really, but somehow suppressing wages by exploiting cheap foreign labour seems to have unanimous cross party support.

[Yevrah]

It’s only really Farage who ever mentions it and even he doesn’t go anywhere near as big on the point as he could.

[Pepe]

His message being "immigrants are bad apart from the thousands if Indians I bring into the country because I don't want to pay American wages".

Foreigners working in tech in the US are not earning less than Americans. There are just not enough Americans going into grad school to cover the demand for highly qualified individuals.

[Pepe]

Even when I was working at a restaurant I got paid as much as the Americans did. Your country might be different, but foreigners in the US are not 'depressing wages'.

[Kikó]

Not much wrong with his message. Certainly not to warrant the far left shrieking.

Which part of his message to the AfD conference did you agree with?

[Spikey M]

Even when I was working at a restaurant I got paid as much as the Americans did. Your country might be different, but foreigners in the US are not 'depressing wages'.

Hmm


On average, immigrants earn less than native-born workers.
Nationwide, the hourly wages of immigrants are 12% lower than the hourly wages of American-born workers. In California, the wage gap is much larger (26%). But for immigrants in California with college degrees the wage gap is much smaller (8%) than for those with high school diplomas or less (27%).


Immigrants are now less likely to be unemployed than native-born workers.
In 2009, 10% of immigrants in California reported being unemployed and seeking work, compared to 11% of native-born workers. Among workers without high school diplomas, immigrants are half as likely to be unemployed as natives (12% vs. 23%).


https://www.ppic.org/publication/immigrants-and-the-labor-market/

[Pepe]

That's gender wage gap level analysis, mate.

[Spikey M]

Obviously, mush can change in 16 years, but I doubt increased immigration / staff availability will have made that situation better. Simple supply and demand.

[Spikey M]

That's gender wage gap level analysis, mate.

Whatever it is, it's clearly talking about immigrant wages vs native workers right there. Feel free to find an alternative study demonstrating equal wages.

[Pepe]

Lmao very next point on that link:


Immigrants are unlikely to drive down the wages of most Americans.
Although debate remains, the vast majority of economic studies find that immigration has little or no effect on the wages of the average American worker. A recent PPIC study estimates that in California, immigration between 1990 and 2004 caused a 4% real wage increase for the average native-born worker. Most agree that low-wage native-born workers face the most competition with immigrants because, on average, these populations have similar skills; yet most studies that focus on the impact of immigration on low-wage workers find zero or very small adverse effects on wages.


The US has a 4% unemployment rate. Oversupply of labor is just not an issue here.

[Pepe]

I don't have to find studies. I am an immigrant working here and I know many (probably hundreds at least) in the same case. We are not offered lower wages. I was not when I had a high school diploma and was doing menial work and I am not now that I have a PhD and do the types of jobs that require such degree.

[Magic]

Putting fries in the bag?

[Pepe]

Putting fries in the bag is probably harder than what I do these days, tbh.

[Lewis]

Which part of his message to the AfD conference did you agree with?

Unless the German press has worse quotes what has been reported here seems a bit mild.

[Kikó]

Unless the German press has worse quotes what has been reported here seems a bit mild.

I'm not sure telling a neo Nazi party to stop being ashamed of their recent Nazi past is that mild.

[Spikey M]

I don't have to find studies. I am an immigrant working here and I know many (probably hundreds at least) in the same case. We are not offered lower wages. I was not when I had a high school diploma and was doing menial work and I am not now that I have a PhD and do the types of jobs that require such degree.

It's not necessarily a question of do they pay you less because you're foreign. It's a question of are they paying everyone less because there are now more people available and some of them are willing to work for less than others?

[Boydy]

H1-B visa holders notoriously get treated like crap in tech (like in companies that use a lot of them work-life balance will non-existent) because it's much harder for them to just leave and find another job.

[Giggles]

Which part of his message to the AfD conference did you agree with?

I wasn’t there but basically anything I’ve seen reported.

[Pepe]

It's not necessarily a question of do they pay you less because you're foreign. It's a question of are they paying everyone less because there are now more people available and some of them are willing to work for less than others?

Your own link says "no," but I understand the potential mechanism. I don't think that we have a way of knowing for certain, but we should we wary of zero-sum thinking. In any case, my boy Bryan Caplan (https://www.amazon.com/Open-Borders-Science-Ethics-Immigration/dp/1250316960) has me convinced.


H1-B visa holders notoriously get treated like crap in tech (like in companies that use a lot of them work-life balance will non-existent) because it's much harder for them to just leave and find another job.

This is true. You can even see it in grad school. The foreign students are willing to work a lot more (not me, lol), which is in no small part why so many Americans quit. "Treated like crap" is a bit of an exaggeration. In grad school we were paid $40k, which isn't a lot in the US but for someone recently arrived from China/India/Mexico feels like a fortune. Some of my grad school mates went to work for Intel. Yes, they had to work a lot. They were also paid $150,000 per year. They were not complaining.

[Spikey M]

Your own link says "no," but I understand the potential mechanism. I don't think that we have a way of knowing for certain, but we should we wary of zero-sum thinking. In any case, my boy Bryan Caplan (https://www.amazon.com/Open-Borders-Science-Ethics-Immigration/dp/1250316960) has me convinced.



It's basically impossible to know in many cases, granted. Over here it's clear in instances like Lewis' Car Washes and Jimmy's Deliveroo economy, but in proper jobs? Who knows. Immigration could just be an easy excuse to keep them low and explain away terrible growth.

[Pepe]

I think "let's be really strict and not let anyone in unless they are very skilled and fill a proven need and, even then, they should wait a while before they can get benefits" is a reasonable immigration stance. Inferior to open borders, of course, but reasonable.

[randomlegend]

https://i.imgur.com/natJqpp.png

This is absolutely fucking crazy. Medicine in this country is on a one way trip to disaster. If I wasn't already in training I'd be plotting my route out, whether into another career or to another country (yes I appreciate the irony).

[Spikey M]

What's that actually showing RL? Applications to study something medical? What's IMG?

[Shindig]

I'm assuming it's immigrants versus native applicants.

[randomlegend]

What's that actually showing RL? Applications to study something medical? What's IMG?

Applications to speciality training from UK medical graduates (i.e. anyone who graduated from a UK medical school) vs international medical graduates (i.e. anyone who graduated from medical school in another country).

How the pathway through medical "training" works is a bit impenetrable unless you're in it, but essentially this is doctors who have completed medical school and (if they are a UK medical graduate) have completed at least two years of post-graduate training/working as a doctor in what's called the "Foundation Programme) who are then applying for further training. If you're an IMG hilariously there's no requirement for you to have that experience and you can start a training post as your first ever job as a doctor. Perhaps more pertinently, I can ve your first ever job in the NHS/the UK, which is fucking deranged.

Examples of speciality training would be GP training at the end of which you'd be a GP, or paediatric training at the end of which you'd be a paediatric consultant. For other adult medical/surgical subspecialties it's a bit more complicated because you initially do Core medical/surgical training and then have to apply again for subspecialty training but same principal.

Last year more than half of GP trainees appointed were IMGs. Meanwhile there's UK graduates wanting to do GP training who not only can't get a place, but can't even get a non-training job to tide them over until they can apply again. All whilst there aren't actually enough doctors in posts to staff departments properly. And not enough qualified GPs. And not enough GPs coming out of training to fix there not being enough GPs. But there are also qualified GPs who can't get jobs because the government will pay for them to employ paramedics and PAs to cosplay as GPs but won't pay for them to employ actual GPs, so financially practices have basically no choice but to employ these people over GPs.

I could rant on and on. The bottom line is it's all fucking broken.

[Pepe]

Meanwhile there's UK graduates wanting to do GP training who not only can't get a place, but can't even get a non-training job to tide them over until they can apply again.

That right there is the issue. Stupid regulation. The immigrants are irrelevant.

[randomlegend]

What do you mean by that? I agree, I'm just curious where the stupidity in regulation lies in the eyes of someone looking from the outside.

[Kikó]

I wasn’t there but basically anything I’ve seen reported.


https://youtu.be/ERUngQUCsyE?si=t2SroWIzzGqYy7Y7

[Pepe]

What do you mean by that? I agree, I'm just curious where the stupidity in regulation lies in the eyes of someone looking from the outside.

That someone who wants to become a GP can't because 'not enough seats'. Open more seats, especially if there are not enough doctors, as you said.

This part:


But there are also qualified GPs who can't get jobs because the government will pay for them to employ paramedics and PAs to cosplay as GPs but won't pay for them to employ actual GPs, so financially practices have basically no choice but to employ these people over GPs.

Also an obvious case of government doing stupid government things.

[Spikey M]

It's a shame Lewis is too busy angerbanging one of our NHS heroes to post on here anymore, because once upon a time this page would have tipped him over the edge. Open borders, foreign doctors getting special treatment over British doctors, taking up training places at twice their rate and increasing.

Can we unban Harold for a bit?

[Pepe]

@Taz, mate, we all know that you lurk. Come tell us how you feel about the whole thing. We will support you.

[Magic]

Trump hitting Colombia with 25% tariffs because a plane full of migrants was rejected by Colombia. :harold:

Enjoy that coffee bois.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Don't think he understands the mindset of South American socialists, they will revel in the attention.

[niko_cee]

Doubt tariffs really impact most of Colombia's exports.

[Pepe]

Major exports (the obvious one + cheap plastic surgery) will go untouched, but there is also coffee.

[Pepe]

Someone create the "predict how many countries end up with a tariff thread."

[Foe]

Do the American public really back trumps claim to Greenland?

Read today some republic senator calling him out on the capitol rioter pardons.

Going to be pretty impossible the next 4 years if nobody knows whether he’s being serious or joking, as many of the republicans asked seems to think about Greenland. The Danes sound pretty spooked.

[randomlegend]

He's always being serious.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm bang up for a US tariff war with China, will be great for my business, as long as our idiot government doesn't follow them into it.

[Lewis]

I'm not sure telling a neo Nazi party to stop being ashamed of their recent Nazi past is that mild.

I thought he was saying that Germany as a whole shouldn't be sat around wringing their hands about what their grandparents were doing. That and some boilerplate multiculturalism is bad stuff that Angela Merkel said once upon a time. All a bit of a non-event really, and you have to wonder what he hopes to achieve.

[Pepe]

I'm bang up for a US tariff war with China, will be great for my business, as long as our idiot government doesn't follow them into it.

You would assume that it would be good for everyone but the US and China, but then everyone else will somehow manage to fuck up the great opportunity given to them.

[Lofty]

The Colombians shat em and backed down already.

[Kikó]

Major exports (the obvious one + cheap plastic surgery) will go untouched, but there is also coffee.

Plus fresh flowers apparently.

[Ben]

The Colombians shat em and backed down already.

Fucking fannies. :nono:

Everyone is getting tariffed now.

[Giggles]

The Colombians shat em and backed down already.

:cool:

Stupid to try playing the big shot in the first place.

[Spikey M]

I don't really understand what their position was in the first place?

"We don't want our people back. They're scum"?

"You can't send them back to this shithole"?


:

[Jimmy Floyd]

I thought he was saying that Germany as a whole shouldn't be sat around wringing their hands about what their grandparents were doing. That and some boilerplate multiculturalism is bad stuff that Angela Merkel said once upon a time. All a bit of a non-event really, and you have to wonder what he hopes to achieve.

I think he just gets his rocks off influencing world affairs.

[Pepe]

I don't really understand what their position was in the first place?

"We don't want our people back. They're scum"?

"You can't send them back to this shithole"?


:

President said he didn't like that they were sent back in military planes and regular planes would have been alright. Basically they tried to act the big man.

[niko_cee]

1 insurrectionist down, god bless US police violence.

[phonics]

1 insurrectionist down, god bless US police violence.

Another one just got a 17 year sentence for killing someone drunk driving.

It's like Final Destination.

[Boydy]

I saw something about one being arrested for being a nonce as well.

[Ben]

If you're prepared to storm a top level government building without fear of repercussion then you're obviously tapped. Not surprising to see all this come out at all.

[randomlegend]

In the latest episode of "stop being so alarmist bro he won't actually do anything", Trump is turning Guantanamo bay into a concentration camp.

[Pepe]

Isn't that what it has always been?

[randomlegend]

Arguably I suppose, but the increase from a current occupancy of around 15 (and a total of 780 people across it's more than 20 years existence) to an intended 30,000 immigrants is somewhat noteworthy.

[Pepe]

The kind of density we need if we are to solve the housing crisis.

[randomlegend]

A few more years and you might be getting "offered" a free trip there yourself.

[Pepe]

Considering how cold it's been this January, I might sign myself up.

[Ben]

Cuba is underrated.

[Giggles]

Even the mainstreamers are now starting to get the message :drool:


1884924702952464879

[niko_cee]

Ireland, the world's largest corporate tax haven, the home of Trotskyite politics.

Somebody fetch Mrs Doyle.

[Giggles]

If we can get that lot quaking in their comfortable little boots then things are going in the right direction. That radio show today is most likely the first time a good portion of the country will have heard anything other than everything is wonderful. Every day that goes by shows how important it was for the world that Trump won that election.

[randomlegend]

Cringe.

[Giggles]

Oh go and finger your nose ring you ultra sap.

[randomlegend]

It's quite sweet how you've learned this one insult you really like and then get super overexcited at every opportunity you get to use it.

[Giggles]

Yea. I can't possibly contain myself.

[Yevrah]

Obviously I'd rather Guantanamo Bay didn't become a concentration camp, to add to its heinous list of crimes already, but short of that, have I missed a meeting?

From what I can see Trump's instructed his border Tsar to round up and deport illegal immigrants, but (some) people seem to be reacting to it as if he were deporting all immigrants. Are these people seriously suggesting borders don't matter and it's fine that all of these people are there, even the ones who've committed multiple crimes?

[Spikey M]

Obviously I'd rather Guantanamo Bay didn't become a concentration camp, to add to its heinous list of crimes already, but short of that, have I missed a meeting?

From what I can see Trump's instructed his border Tsar to round up and deport illegal immigrants, but (some) people seem to be reacting to it as if he were deporting all immigrants. Are these people seriously suggesting borders don't matter and it's fine that all of these people are there, even the ones who've committed multiple crimes?

Yes, but only because it's Trump doing it. It was fine when Obama was deporting illegals.

All this stuff is basically just Phonics on Arsenal.

[Dquincy]

In the latest episode of "stop being so alarmist bro he won't actually do anything", Trump is turning Guantanamo bay into a concentration camp.
Fuck me, the spin you put on things to suit your agenda is wearing a little thin.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The tariffs are hitting. Go on Donald my son.

[randomlegend]

Hasn't he delayed them?

[Foe]

Nah, happening.

He talks a lot of nonsense, but I have to say I am aligned with the DEI stuff. Create a fair , merit based process and the system will work fine.

Market didn’t respond well when the tariffs landed so I scooped up a lot of the blue chips (apple, Microsoft, nvidia).

Have been trading nvidia all week. That thing has been absolutely wild this week.

New strategy is focus on the “winners” as a blend to punting on losers.

I recommend everyone buy several pairs of crocs.

[Yevrah]

Gotta tell it how it is, he’s had a cracking start to the 2nd run at the gig.

[Kikó]

The reason dei became a big thing is specifically because "a fair , merit based process" wasn't happening.

[Pepe]

And we ended with an even less fair, less merit based process. Best part is the demographic that was supposed to be helped the most is doing worse by pretty much any metric you choose. At some point you have to admit that your plan doesn't work and move on.

[Pepe]

For example the recent data on reading/writing. On average, slightly worse, with the top performers doing slightly better and the worst performers doing a lot worse. This after at least two decades of schools having as an only priority to help said worst performers at all costs. Turns out that letting them miss school and not turn in homework if they don't want to makes them perform worse. Nobody could have seen that coming.

[Magic]

God, you are annoying. Just a statistic driven process wanker.

[niko_cee]

The reason dei became a big thing is specifically because "a fair , merit based process" wasn't happening.

Yes. Whilst I don't really agree with the quite aggressive US approach to such things [outside opinion, I don't really know] the idea that life is a meritocracy and fair and balanced for all so leave it alone is misguided at best, and more likely pernicious.

This whole FAA thing sounds like most sort of reasonably well-intentioned government initiatives which end up being hijacked by militant interest groups and thereby made a bit of a disaster.

Not that it had anything to do with a helicopter flying into a plane. Those are unrelated events.

The reason why 'the plan' doesn't work is that it misses the point for the most part. Society largely discriminates against the poor. As more and more of society become poor, more and more people will be on the end of this. The solution isn't to try to promote a small percentage of the growing poor into a higher and largely unobtainable social strata.

[Kikó]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/


Learn more aboutRefinitiv
My News


Exclusive: Musk aides lock government workers out of computer systems at US agency, sources say
By Tim Reid
January 31, 20259:21 PM GMT+1Updated 2 hours ago




Item 1 of 2 The U.S. Office of Personnel Management building in Washington June 5, 2015. REUTERS/Gary Cameron/File Photo
[1/2]The U.S. Office of Personnel Management building in Washington June 5, 2015. REUTERS/Gary Cameron/File Photo Purchase Licensing Rights, opens new tab

Musk aides restrict access to federal employee data systems
Musk's team works around the clock, installs sofa beds at OPM
Concerns include cybersecurity and lack of oversight
WASHINGTON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Aides to Elon Musk charged with running the U.S. government human resources agency have locked career civil servants out of computer systems that contain the personal data of millions of federal employees, according to two agency officials.
Since taking office 11 days ago, President Donald Trump has embarked on a massive government makeover, firing and sidelining hundreds of civil servants in his first steps toward downsizing the bureaucracy and installing more loyalists.
As President Trump stated yesterday, he is still committed to placing tariffs on Canada starting as early as tomorrow, possibly.




Musk, the billionaire Tesla (TSLA.O), opens new tab CEO and X owner tasked by Trump to slash the size of the 2.2 million-strong civilian government workforce, has moved swiftly to install allies at the agency known as the Office of Personnel Management.
The two officials, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation, said some senior career employees at OPM have had their access revoked to some of the department's data systems.
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
"We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications."
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

Officials affected by the move can still log on and access functions such as email but can no longer see the massive datasets that cover every facet of the federal workforce.
Musk, OPM, representatives of the new team, and the White House did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
OPM has sent out memos that eschew the normal dry wording of government missives as it encourages civil servants to consider buyout offers to quit and take a vacation to a "dream destination."
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

Don Moynihan, a professor at the Ford School of Public Policy at the University of Michigan, said the actions inside OPM raised concerns about congressional oversight at the agency and how Trump and Musk view the federal bureaucracy.
"This makes it much harder for anyone outside Musk's inner circle at OPM to know what's going on," Moynihan said.
MUSK INFLUENCE
A team including current and former employees of Musk assumed command of OPM on Jan. 20, the day Trump took office. They have moved sofa beds onto the fifth floor of the agency's headquarters, which contains the director's office and can only be accessed with a security badge or a security escort, one of the OPM employees said.

The sofa beds have been installed so the team can work around the clock, the employee said.
Musk, a major donor to a famously demanding boss, installed beds at X for employees to enable them to work longer when in 2022 he took over the social media platform, formerly known as Twitter.
"It feels like a hostile takeover," the employee said.
The new appointees in charge of OPM have moved the agency's chief management officer, Katie Malague, out of her office and to a new office on a different floor, the officials said.
Malague did not respond to a request for comment.
David Lebryk, the top-ranking career U.S. Treasury Department official, is set to leave his post following a clash with allies of Musk after they asked for access to payment systems, the Washington Post reported on Friday.
The new team at OPM includes software engineers and Brian Bjelde, who joined Musk's SpaceX venture in 2003 as an avionics engineer before rising to become the company's vice president of human resources. Bjelde's role at OPM is that of a senior adviser.
The acting head of OPM, Charles Ezell, has been sending memos to the entire government workforce since Trump took office, including Tuesday's offering federal employees the chance to quit with eight months pay.
"No-one here knew that the memos were coming out. We are finding out about these memos the same time as the rest of the world," one of the officials said.
Among the group that now runs OPM is Amanda Scales, a former Musk employee, who is now OPM's chief of staff. In some memos sent out on Jan. 20 and Jan. 21 by Ezell, including one directing agencies to identify federal workers on probationary periods, agency heads were asked to email Scales at her OPM email address.
Another senior adviser is Riccardo Biasini, a former engineer at Tesla and most recently a director at The Boring Company, Musk's tunnel-building operation in Las Vegas.

[Lewis]

I think - although wrong on principle - you can get away with a degree of affirmative action when 1) the minority group is a relatively tiny fraction; and 2) the minority group is relatively coherent. Once you have a load of competing minority groups making up an ever-increasing part of the population is becomes more overtly one specific group paying to have its own opportunities reduced, and that obviously isn't going to be popular.

[Shindig]

Yes. Whilst I don't really agree with the quite aggressive US approach to such things [outside opinion, I don't really know] the idea that life is a meritocracy and fair and balanced for all so leave it alone is misguided at best, and more likely pernicious.

This whole FAA thing sounds like most sort of reasonably well-intentioned government initiatives which end up being hijacked by militant interest groups and thereby made a bit of a disaster.

Not that it had anything to do with a helicopter flying into a plane. Those are unrelated events.

The reason why 'the plan' doesn't work is that it misses the point for the most part. Society largely discriminates against the poor. As more and more of society become poor, more and more people will be on the end of this. The solution isn't to try to promote a small percentage of the growing poor into a higher and largely unobtainable social strata.

I think it's also really hard to guard against personal biases, especially in the recruitment process. You're essentially picking one applicant over another and the difference might be entirely on vibes. DEI sounds like a poor way to counter-balance that. If it needs balancing out at all.

[Pepe]

Except that the ATC program had a test and if you passed it (and met the other requirements) you had a job. That was it.

EDIT: A job with a median salary of $140k and that you retired from in your fifties.

[Pepe]

I think - although wrong on principle - you can get away with a degree of affirmative action when 1) the minority group is a relatively tiny fraction; and 2) the minority group is relatively coherent. Once you have a load of competing minority groups making up an ever-increasing part of the population is becomes more overtly one specific group paying to have its own opportunities reduced, and that obviously isn't going to be popular.

I think that, more importantly, affirmative action (which is most definitely not the same as DEI) needed an obvious 'majority advantaged group' to measure against. Whites vs blacks in the 60s worked well. Once some of the minorities started doing better than the whites despite no 'privilege' it all kinda fell apart.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's still about whites vs blacks even if they have to pretend otherwise. Everything in that space is about people grasping for the vanished righteous glory of MLK and the 60s civil rights pioneers.

[Giggles]

If he can stop this trans/paedo thing now too then it'll be a monster success of a term.

[randomlegend]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/


Learn more aboutRefinitiv
My News


Exclusive: Musk aides lock government workers out of computer systems at US agency, sources say
By Tim Reid
January 31, 20259:21 PM GMT+1Updated 2 hours ago




Item 1 of 2 The U.S. Office of Personnel Management building in Washington June 5, 2015. REUTERS/Gary Cameron/File Photo
[1/2]The U.S. Office of Personnel Management building in Washington June 5, 2015. REUTERS/Gary Cameron/File Photo Purchase Licensing Rights, opens new tab

Musk aides restrict access to federal employee data systems
Musk's team works around the clock, installs sofa beds at OPM
Concerns include cybersecurity and lack of oversight
WASHINGTON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Aides to Elon Musk charged with running the U.S. government human resources agency have locked career civil servants out of computer systems that contain the personal data of millions of federal employees, according to two agency officials.
Since taking office 11 days ago, President Donald Trump has embarked on a massive government makeover, firing and sidelining hundreds of civil servants in his first steps toward downsizing the bureaucracy and installing more loyalists.
As President Trump stated yesterday, he is still committed to placing tariffs on Canada starting as early as tomorrow, possibly.




Musk, the billionaire Tesla (TSLA.O), opens new tab CEO and X owner tasked by Trump to slash the size of the 2.2 million-strong civilian government workforce, has moved swiftly to install allies at the agency known as the Office of Personnel Management.
The two officials, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation, said some senior career employees at OPM have had their access revoked to some of the department's data systems.
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
"We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications."
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

Officials affected by the move can still log on and access functions such as email but can no longer see the massive datasets that cover every facet of the federal workforce.
Musk, OPM, representatives of the new team, and the White House did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
OPM has sent out memos that eschew the normal dry wording of government missives as it encourages civil servants to consider buyout offers to quit and take a vacation to a "dream destination."
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

Don Moynihan, a professor at the Ford School of Public Policy at the University of Michigan, said the actions inside OPM raised concerns about congressional oversight at the agency and how Trump and Musk view the federal bureaucracy.
"This makes it much harder for anyone outside Musk's inner circle at OPM to know what's going on," Moynihan said.
MUSK INFLUENCE
A team including current and former employees of Musk assumed command of OPM on Jan. 20, the day Trump took office. They have moved sofa beds onto the fifth floor of the agency's headquarters, which contains the director's office and can only be accessed with a security badge or a security escort, one of the OPM employees said.

The sofa beds have been installed so the team can work around the clock, the employee said.
Musk, a major donor to a famously demanding boss, installed beds at X for employees to enable them to work longer when in 2022 he took over the social media platform, formerly known as Twitter.
"It feels like a hostile takeover," the employee said.
The new appointees in charge of OPM have moved the agency's chief management officer, Katie Malague, out of her office and to a new office on a different floor, the officials said.
Malague did not respond to a request for comment.
David Lebryk, the top-ranking career U.S. Treasury Department official, is set to leave his post following a clash with allies of Musk after they asked for access to payment systems, the Washington Post reported on Friday.
The new team at OPM includes software engineers and Brian Bjelde, who joined Musk's SpaceX venture in 2003 as an avionics engineer before rising to become the company's vice president of human resources. Bjelde's role at OPM is that of a senior adviser.
The acting head of OPM, Charles Ezell, has been sending memos to the entire government workforce since Trump took office, including Tuesday's offering federal employees the chance to quit with eight months pay.
"No-one here knew that the memos were coming out. We are finding out about these memos the same time as the rest of the world," one of the officials said.
Among the group that now runs OPM is Amanda Scales, a former Musk employee, who is now OPM's chief of staff. In some memos sent out on Jan. 20 and Jan. 21 by Ezell, including one directing agencies to identify federal workers on probationary periods, agency heads were asked to email Scales at her OPM email address.
Another senior adviser is Riccardo Biasini, a former engineer at Tesla and most recently a director at The Boring Company, Musk's tunnel-building operation in Las Vegas.

This is absolutely fucking crazy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Any news on whether Musk aides have locked government workers out of computer systems at a US agency?

[Yevrah]

Any news on whether Musk aides have locked government workers out of computer systems at a US agency?

As it happens Jim I have some news for you here.


https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/


Learn more aboutRefinitiv
My News


Exclusive: Musk aides lock government workers out of computer systems at US agency, sources say
By Tim Reid
January 31, 20259:21 PM GMT+1Updated 2 hours ago




Item 1 of 2 The U.S. Office of Personnel Management building in Washington June 5, 2015. REUTERS/Gary Cameron/File Photo
[1/2]The U.S. Office of Personnel Management building in Washington June 5, 2015. REUTERS/Gary Cameron/File Photo Purchase Licensing Rights, opens new tab

Musk aides restrict access to federal employee data systems
Musk's team works around the clock, installs sofa beds at OPM
Concerns include cybersecurity and lack of oversight
WASHINGTON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Aides to Elon Musk charged with running the U.S. government human resources agency have locked career civil servants out of computer systems that contain the personal data of millions of federal employees, according to two agency officials.
Since taking office 11 days ago, President Donald Trump has embarked on a massive government makeover, firing and sidelining hundreds of civil servants in his first steps toward downsizing the bureaucracy and installing more loyalists.
As President Trump stated yesterday, he is still committed to placing tariffs on Canada starting as early as tomorrow, possibly.




Musk, the billionaire Tesla (TSLA.O), opens new tab CEO and X owner tasked by Trump to slash the size of the 2.2 million-strong civilian government workforce, has moved swiftly to install allies at the agency known as the Office of Personnel Management.
The two officials, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation, said some senior career employees at OPM have had their access revoked to some of the department's data systems.
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
"We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications."
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

Officials affected by the move can still log on and access functions such as email but can no longer see the massive datasets that cover every facet of the federal workforce.
Musk, OPM, representatives of the new team, and the White House did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
OPM has sent out memos that eschew the normal dry wording of government missives as it encourages civil servants to consider buyout offers to quit and take a vacation to a "dream destination."
Advertisement · Scroll to continue

Don Moynihan, a professor at the Ford School of Public Policy at the University of Michigan, said the actions inside OPM raised concerns about congressional oversight at the agency and how Trump and Musk view the federal bureaucracy.
"This makes it much harder for anyone outside Musk's inner circle at OPM to know what's going on," Moynihan said.
MUSK INFLUENCE
A team including current and former employees of Musk assumed command of OPM on Jan. 20, the day Trump took office. They have moved sofa beds onto the fifth floor of the agency's headquarters, which contains the director's office and can only be accessed with a security badge or a security escort, one of the OPM employees said.

The sofa beds have been installed so the team can work around the clock, the employee said.
Musk, a major donor to a famously demanding boss, installed beds at X for employees to enable them to work longer when in 2022 he took over the social media platform, formerly known as Twitter.
"It feels like a hostile takeover," the employee said.
The new appointees in charge of OPM have moved the agency's chief management officer, Katie Malague, out of her office and to a new office on a different floor, the officials said.
Malague did not respond to a request for comment.
David Lebryk, the top-ranking career U.S. Treasury Department official, is set to leave his post following a clash with allies of Musk after they asked for access to payment systems, the Washington Post reported on Friday.
The new team at OPM includes software engineers and Brian Bjelde, who joined Musk's SpaceX venture in 2003 as an avionics engineer before rising to become the company's vice president of human resources. Bjelde's role at OPM is that of a senior adviser.
The acting head of OPM, Charles Ezell, has been sending memos to the entire government workforce since Trump took office, including Tuesday's offering federal employees the chance to quit with eight months pay.
"No-one here knew that the memos were coming out. We are finding out about these memos the same time as the rest of the world," one of the officials said.
Among the group that now runs OPM is Amanda Scales, a former Musk employee, who is now OPM's chief of staff. In some memos sent out on Jan. 20 and Jan. 21 by Ezell, including one directing agencies to identify federal workers on probationary periods, agency heads were asked to email Scales at her OPM email address.
Another senior adviser is Riccardo Biasini, a former engineer at Tesla and most recently a director at The Boring Company, Musk's tunnel-building operation in Las Vegas.

[Shindig]

If he can stop this trans/paedo thing now too then it'll be a monster success of a term.

You can't stop that. It's driven by the internet and autism. Even if you get doctors halting them getting surgery, they can deliver some bathtub hormones online.

[Spikey M]

It'll never stop, because it's a legitimate dysphoria that has happened since atleast the days of Rome. The Internet- Social Media, as usual - has made it fashionable though. And like all fashion, it will eventually move on.

It's a bit like all the hand wringing over emo kids cutting themselves when we were young. What the adults / media at the time didn't understand is that the cuts were part of the emo uniform and they weren't self harming in the way most people cutting themselves are.

[Pepe]

You cannot stop it, but he has made it so that any clinic that performs gender changing procedures to minors cannot take government money. Good move, in my opinion. Private clinics can still do whatever they want, of course, and if adult women want to chop their breasts then so be it.

As for that thing Kiko posted. Can someone explain the severity of it to me? Some government officials have temporarily (?) lost access to a database if I understand correctly. What's the evil scheme?

[randomlegend]

An unelected foreign tech oligarch with ties to the CCP and Vladimir Putin who does not have security clearance has not only been given access to sensitive data pertaining to every citizen in the USA, he's also been given the ability to lock out actual government officials from accessing it.

[niko_cee]

Yeah, but he's put a couple of sofa beds in as well.

[randomlegend]

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/31/us/trump-water-california-central-valley.html


Trump administration officials began releasing significant amounts of water from two dams in California’s Central Valley on Friday in a move that seemed intended to make a political point as President Trump continued to falsely blame the Los Angeles wildfires on water policies in the Democratic-run state.

The releases, as ordered, have sent water toward low-lying land in the Central Valley, and none of it will reach Southern California, water experts said. Nonetheless, President Trump said on Friday that the same action would have prevented the Los Angeles wildfires on the other side of mountain ranges over which that water has no way of traveling.

“Photo of beautiful water flow that I just opened in California,” President Trump posted on Friday on social media in an apparent reference to the dam releases. “Everybody should be happy about this long fought Victory! I only wish they listened to me six years ago — There would have been no fire!”

Experts expressed dismay on Friday that releasing so much water now served little use for farmers, who typically have higher irrigation needs in the spring and summer months when agricultural fields are abundant.

Every day is like a greatest hits of the most moronic shit he could possibly do.

[Pepe]

An unelected foreign tech oligarch with ties to the CCP and Vladimir Putin who does not have security clearance has not only been given access to sensitive data pertaining to every citizen in the USA

He is a member of the government. Every single bureaucrat is unelected, so them having access to the database is equally bad, no?

He is a US citizen.

Does said database require a security clearance to be accessed? I don't think that it was mentioned in the thing posted.

It also doesn't say that it pertains to every citizen in the US, but to every government worker in the US.

Again, I don't understand what is going on, it could be VERY BAD, so if someone can explain properly before I panic that'd be great.

[Lewis]

Doesn't Space X do government work? He presumably has some level of security clearance.

Otherwise yes foreigners shouldn't be trusted.

[randomlegend]

He is a member of the government. Every single bureaucrat is unelected, so them having access to the database is equally bad, no?

As I understand it, by the usual standards, he's not actually. His "appointment" should have been subject to a congressional review which it hasn't been. But Trump just does what he wants and there's no functioning safeguards left to stop him.


He is a US citizen.

Pretty sure if Trump's proposed position on immigrants was actually accurately applied to Musk, his citizenship would be revoked because he previously worked illegally in the US.


Does said database require a security clearance to be accessed? I don't think that it was mentioned in the thing posted.

Fair point. You would hope so. But on the subject, Musk's own lawyers had to tell him not to apply for higher security clearance because he'd almost certainly be refused and probably get the clearance he currently has through SpaceX revoked. He's not currently allowed inside his own SpaceX facilities when certain documents are present because he doesn't have sufficient clearance, lol.


It also doesn't say that it pertains to every citizen in the US, but to every government worker in the US.

I've read elsewhere that he's also obtained access to a payment system which includes details of all citizens, but even if it's only government employees, it's still insane.

[randomlegend]

https://i.imgur.com/xOuboai.png

:cab:

[Magic]

We are the product.

[Ben]

Democracy is finished. Hopefully not too long before capitalism follows.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Capitalism's going nowhere. The youngsters are all over it.

[Yevrah]

I mean, he's working for the government as Administrator of the Department of Government Efficiency. Now I know people hate him, but it sounds like everything he's looked as so far as described in this thread is under the purview of that role.

If it was Mr Career Politics, 46, from Long Island doing it nobody would give a shit, social meeja wouldn't be in meltdown and RL wouldn't be another step closer to a breakdown.

[Pepe]

Capitalism's going nowhere. The youngsters are all over it.

Hope you're right.

[randomlegend]

I mean, he's working for the government as Administrator of the Department of Government Efficiency. Now I know people hate him, but it sounds like everything he's looked as so far as described in this thread is under the purview of that role.

If it was Mr Career Politics, 46, from Long Island doing it nobody would give a shit, social meeja wouldn't be in meltdown and RL wouldn't be another step closer to a breakdown.

Trump invented a department and installed Musk at the head of it. In the normal state of affairs, this would require congressional review and approval before it had any authority or remit. This has not happened. This "department" essentially exists outside the US government just because Trump said so and there's no safeguards left to challenge him.. Musk would also absolutely not get approved for a position like this (essentially a cabinet member) if normal processes were followed.

Tampering with government computers is illegal. Musk's aides going in and sticking in their own hard drives is crazy. If you can't see how that's a huge national security risk then you're either brain dead or just wilfully ignoring reality.

If Mr Career Politics did what Musk has done, they'd be in prison for 20 years.

What Trump did literally pissing away all that water - which will be desperately needed for irrigation to produce the country's food in a few months - for political point scoring was deranged. If a terrorist had done it they'd be very pleased with themselves.

[randomlegend]

Denmark increasing the price of Ozempic by 500% only for the USA is top trolling.

[Ben]

:cool:

[Spikey M]

Denmark increasing the price of Ozempic by 500% only for the USA is top trolling.

The average seppo land whale probably needs a dose 500% stronger than any other country tbf.

[Yevrah]

Tampering with government computers is illegal. Musk's aides going in and sticking in their own hard drives is crazy. If you can't see how that's a huge national security risk then you're either brain dead or just wilfully ignoring reality.

The other stuff I don't necessarily disagree with, but on this point, you've just as much idea that this is actually what's happened here as Trump did when claiming employing one eyed, cognitively dissonant dwarves had caused a plane to crash.

Some hysterical people on Twitter have an agenda, which also plays into yours and have landed on 'tampering' and 'sticking their own hard drives in' - what do those things even mean and how do they even work?

"Here's my Tesla ID badge, I've freed up some space on this here 8TB hard drive and I'm going to stick it in your network".

"Er Sir, you what and that says you're a cleaner"

"I'm with Mr Musk's new special unit"

"Oh ok, go on in then, the rabid lefties in the building will raise the alarm if anything untoward is happening here"

[randomlegend]

Trump could be guiding Musk into your wife in front of your eyes and you'd still be standing there going "but do we actually know if anything untoward is going on here".

[Pepe]

Denmark increasing the price of Ozempic by 500% only for the USA is top trolling.

How would that work? They would tariff their own exports? Sounds much like self-hurt, like every other tariff, but I guess when the good guys do it it becomes a good idea.

[randomlegend]

https://i.imgur.com/8KuURDW.jpeg

Very normal behaviour from a government to fire and punish people who correctly pursued prosecution against violent criminals (criminals said government has released).

[Pepe]

The other stuff I don't necessarily disagree with, but on this point, you've just as much idea that this is actually what's happened here as Trump did when claiming employing one eyed, cognitively dissonant dwarves had caused a plane to crash.

Some hysterical people on Twitter have an agenda, which also plays into yours and have landed on 'tampering' and 'sticking their own hard drives in' - what do those things even mean and how do they even work?

"Here's my Tesla ID badge, I've freed up some space on this here 8TB hard drive and I'm going to stick it in your network".

"Er Sir, you what and that says you're a cleaner"

"I'm with Mr Musk's new special unit"

"Oh ok, go on in then, the rabid lefties in the building will raise the alarm if anything untoward is happening here"

I too was wondering how he managed to dodge the security of the building but who am I to doubt "Alt National Park Service" a *checks Google* Non-governmental organization in Sanford, North Carolina. According to their own website:


We are all Rogue Rangers. There is no official or unofficial, no "Alt" or "rogue" that is any more real or less real than any other group. There are no government employees directly associated with this site or Twitter account, but there are many U.S. citizens concerned with actions that jeopardize our open lands and our National Parks. U.S public land conservation and protection is essential to our environment and for our country.

Yup, perfectly credible source.

[randomlegend]

It's virtually the same story as reported by Reuters on the previous page.

"Yeah I admit the pardoning stuff is pretty crazy but I'm sure all the other bad stuff is made up".

[Pepe]

In this moment of hysteria, do you not think that there are things being made up and/or greatly exaggerated? You really do not think that this is a possibility? Am I really the crazy one for being a bit skeptical? If bad things happen, bad things happen and I will gladly accept it. The pardons were bad. The tariffs (if they do happen) are moronic.

Also, I did not say that I did not believe in the OPC thing, but that I did not understand the implications. So far there is one report and all it says is that some anonymous source claims that "Musk aides" have accessed some database and denied access to some other people. That's it. I'll withhold my panic until we know more, but you do you.

[randomlegend]

Yeah, and that level of scepticism (delusion) that someone whose cheated, lied and stolen their way through their entire life is not going to continue to behave in exactly that way in office is how - as a country - you've ended up with a President pardoning violent criminals and then going after the people who convicted them.

By the time you collectively accept what's going on, it's going to be too late. It probably already is.

[Yevrah]

Yeah, and that level of scepticism (delusion) that someone whose cheated, lied and stolen their way through their entire life is not going to continue to behave in exactly that way in office is how - as a country - you've ended up with a President pardoning violent criminals and then going after the people who convicted them.

By the time you collectively accept what's going on, it's going to be too late. It probably already is.

The previous guy pardoned his son and therefore any claim to the moral high ground was lost.

The whole thing is ridiculous and I swear when that Making a Murderer documentary was about the cat abusing twat at the centre of it supposedly couldn't be pardoned by the president. Has something changed since?

[randomlegend]

Yes, everything is absolutely black and white and there is no spectrum BOFESIDESM8

[Pepe]

I'm not American, don't blame me. I don't vote.

I assume that everyone who voted for him knows that he won't follow standard government procedures. People who voted for him are ok with it and I think many voted for him because of it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Loving these tariffs (from a UK business point of view, they're moronic otherwise). Hit the EU too, Donald. Not us, obviously, wouldn't want to put your golf courses at risk now would we.

[Pepe]

Only American-made carb floats for my tractor, thank you very much.

[Kikó]

https://i.imgur.com/8KuURDW.jpeg

Very normal behaviour from a government to fire and punish people who correctly pursued prosecution against violent criminals (criminals said government has released).

This is apparently about 6k people from an organization of 13k. 👀

[Magic]

In this moment of hysteria, do you not think that there are things being made up and/or greatly exaggerated? You really do not think that this is a possibility? Am I really the crazy one for being a bit skeptical? If bad things happen, bad things happen and I will gladly accept it. The pardons were bad. The tariffs (if they do happen) are moronic.

Also, I did not say that I did not believe in the OPC thing, but that I did not understand the implications. So far there is one report and all it says is that some anonymous source claims that "Musk aides" have accessed some database and denied access to some other people. That's it. I'll withhold my panic until we know more, but you do you.

!Remind me 1 week. Lol.

[Spikey M]

Struggling to think of anything I'm as passionate about as RL is about this.

[Kikó]

https://insidemedicine.substack.com/p/breaking-news-cdc-orders-mass-retraction?utm_campaign=post&showWelcomeOnShare=false

The great purge has begun. Free speech for some.

[Magic]

Yay, important stuff.

[Spikey M]

https://insidemedicine.substack.com/p/breaking-news-cdc-orders-mass-retraction?utm_campaign=post&showWelcomeOnShare=false

The great purge has begun. Free speech for some.

They'll just host it all on foreign servers, I imagine. As with most things the orange one says and does, it's performative.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Struggling to think of anything I'm as passionate about as RL is about this.

It's just symptomatic of there being far too much interest in America generally, on our part.

Norfolk county council could be doing anything and he wouldn't know.

[randomlegend]

I read local news, mate.

If it turns out Delia is stepping back from her catering business so she's got time to oversee her Sous chefs' coup of county hall I can assure you you'll be among the first to know.

[Luke Emia]

What are your thoughts on the pedestrianisation of Norwich City centre?

[Magic]

It's just symptomatic of there being far too much interest in America generally, on our part.

Norfolk county council could be doing anything and he wouldn't know.

Of course who cares what our biggest ally and leader of the free world is doing.

[randomlegend]

What are your thoughts on the pedestrianisation of Norwich City centre?

I can barely remember what it was like before.

Probably good?

[niko_cee]

/Partridge

[Luke Emia]

I can barely remember what it was like before.

Probably good?

Wrong answer.

[Spikey M]

Well the pedestrianisation of Southend town centre was and remains a shitshow if you're a driver during rush hour.

[Ben]

Is Norwich still stuck two decades behind the rest of the country?

[Magic]

Is Norwich still stuck two decades behind the rest of the country?

No we're regressing to meet it. Just 1 decade now.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why does he seemingly want to annex Canada? 60 odd electoral college votes to the Dems right there. Unless he's planning to make himself a hereditary emperor.

[niko_cee]

He doesn't understand a world beyond threats. Everything is a negotiating position. Positivism is dead, command theory is back. Might is right. Soft power is over, until you drive all of your once allies into the arms of your apparent enemy.

You could say it's a national scale example of Gary's the function of wealth inequality in action. He wants their assets. He doesn't care about their people.

[Luke Emia]

Is Norwich still stuck two decades behind the rest of the country?

Fuck me if you think Norwich is 2 decades behind you wanna see the rest of the county.

[niko_cee]

Was in Gillingham this weekend and can confirm.

Good lord.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Germans will get absolutely fucked by all this and sell themselves to China/Russia. French in a much better position, no wonder Sir Keir's been over there. Suspect this is where Brexit might come into its own.

[Pepe]

I should have bought more avocadoes yesterday. At least gasoline was still cheap today. Wish me luck, lads.

[Spikey M]

The Germans will get absolutely fucked by all this and sell themselves to China/Russia. French in a much better position, no wonder Sir Keir's been over there. Suspect this is where Brexit might come into its own.

I didn't think our future economy would be in dropshipping American shit to Greece, but here we are.

You're about to make a mint on Seppo tractor parts.

This is probably why they sent David Lammy to Sudan for a bit too.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's great news for me because we have about 7 major American competitors who (like us) get all their product from China and also in their case Mexico, so it absolutely shafts them. The only thing I can think of for them is to find a go-between country but what is there?

The other effect I think it will have for UK is that it will drive the EU back into our caring, bulldog-tattooed arms. We're just too important a market for them.

[randomlegend]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/feb/02/elon-musk-doge-access-federal-payment-system

All good.

[Lofty]

It's alright he is saying we can have some tariffs as well now, presumably unless we bend over for some chlorinated chicken and yank healthcare like Boris promised.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Not a chance he tariffs us. He has two massive golf resorts and god knows what else here. You can tell from his language.