U.S. Presidential Election 2016 (Sponsored by Betty Croker's Hamburger Helper)

[Jimmy Floyd]

People have boiled it far too much to that and JD Vance's Hillbilly Ellegy. It is also this (from one of the best conservative journalists around), which has been happening for much longer. Watching just parts of the accompanying Buckley / Regan debate (Regan comes on at about the 16 minute mark) to see how far debate has fallen since I was a kid is just so sad.

http://freebeacon.com/columns/crisis-conservative-intellectual/

That's not just politics though, everything has become dumbed down and that's because reach is far greater.

Every western country is experiencing this wave of populism in some form and I'm pretty convinced it's for the same reason every time. Populism, incidentally, is a word used by people who don't like the results of democracy.

[mikem]

I agree with you about the populism and the pressures. However, the idea that these economic pressures are something new doesn't fly.

In an American context we know the pressures have always been around because of Upton Sinclair, John Steinbeck, Studs Turkel, Faulkner, Woody Guthrie, the plot of every 80's movie, or Bruce Springsteen song. The Dust Bowl was internal mass migration, people deciding which kid got to eat that day, utter abuse of the poor, and they were completely unconnected from any elites. Nothing today is that bad and the populist response then was at least in part different.

So why has the populist response been only in this direction? Something else has changed.

[Lewis]

Everything has been made thicker for the benefits of the constant and instant news cycle, but the New Deal was basically a giant package of 'post-truth' and 'populist' wank (as was the 'Square Deal', the 'Fair Deal', and the post-war enthusiasm for planning here), and it was taken for granted across the board that foreign things are shit, so you could get your interventionist nativism from more mainstream figures in established parties. For 'The Donald' see Bull Moose-era Theodore Roosevelt, and for Brexit see Imperial Preference.

The difference now is that nobody has been given that option for twenty-odd years, and the mimsy tendency which made itself comfortable on the back of that restrictive consensus doesn't like it, so they have to tie themselves in knots creating a past where the Great British Public loved foreigners, free markets, and cunt politicians until Nigel Farage came along and whipped all the thickos up.

[bruhnaldo]

Australian rich mind you, not American rich.

I laughed harder than I should have.


It's bizarre how an ability to speak in complete sentences is apparently evidence of your suitability for the presidency. I've seen serious political commentators suggesting Michelle Obama as a future POTUS. Whether it's because they're all caught up in THE MOMENT and they repent of it the next day or they actually believe it is anybody's guess.

I was thinking about this the other day, but it's really not that far off. She's probably more qualified than Trump currently is.


I thought it had reached peak hilarity with Palin in 2008. She could barely speak properly, yet the ticket got nearly sixty fucking million votes. And yet here we are.

I'll forever maintain Obama won the election the day Palin was appointed the possible VP. That's when it really took the turn.

[mikem]

I always like how it has to be labeled "nativist" since we can't admit to there being white identity politics.

[Bartholomert]

I always like how it has to be labeled "nativist" since we can't admit to there being white identity politics.

I don't think it's white identity politics so much as wanting to preserve a particular national identity / value system (apart from ethnic background). Trump supporters don't have issues with legal immigration, for example, as long as it can be shown to actually benefit Americans.

[bruhnaldo]

Trump supporters don't have issues with legal immigration, for example, as long as it can be shown to actually benefit Americans.

You don't actually believe this do you

I mean I'm one of these people, personally, but I'm also not the atypical person voting for Trump.

[Bartholomert]

You don't actually believe this do you

I mean I'm one of these people, personally, but I'm also not the atypical person voting for Trump.

America is a country of (legal) immigrants, just because I don't want hordes of Third World refugees doesn't mean I don't welcome thoroughly vetted Egyptian scientists, Pakistani doctors, etc. I would think and hope that most Trump supporters genuinely felt the same way.

[bruhnaldo]

America is a country of (legal) immigrants, just because I don't want hordes of Third World refugees doesn't mean I don't welcome thoroughly vetted Egyptian scientists, Pakistani doctors, etc.

I don't think you understood my question

[mikem]

I don't think it's white identity politics so much as wanting to preserve a particular national identity / value system (apart from ethnic background). Trump supporters don't have issues with legal immigration, for example, as long as it can be shown to actually benefit Americans.

To be clear, I don't think it HAS to be racist. But if the culture and the natives that are the center of it and are what is valued are white it is white identity politics. Identify politics are not inherently racist.

But Trumpism so far is performing well below typical Republicans with all minority groups.
For it to be something other than white identity politics it has to find a way to include others. When you can't get Shapiro, French, or Mandel to feel like they have a place?

[Bartholomert]

To be clear, I don't think it HAS to be racist. But if the culture and the natives that are the center of it and are what is valued are white it is white identity politics. Identify politics are not inherently racist.

But Trumpism so far is performing well below typical Republicans with all minority groups.
For it to be something other than white identity politics it has to find a way to include others. When you can't get Shapiro, French, or Mandel to feel like they have a place?

Hispanics are polling in favor of Trump at about the same levels as Romney. Shapiro, French, etc, are against Trump not because he's promoting White identity politics, but because he's a terrible undisciplined and uncouth candidate who's not a real conservative.

I don't think wanting to uphold the principles enshrined in the Constitution, wanting to uphold rule of law, bring America's immigration policies in line with other Western nations, etc, is a privilege exclusively available to Whites.

[mikem]

You may, I don't believe your candidate does. As liberal as I am, Bush speechwriter and anti-immigration activist David Frum explains my position much better than I can:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/dont-gamble-on-trump/506207/?utm_source=twb

[Bartholomert]

You may, I don't believe your candidate does. As liberal as I am, Bush speechwriter and anti-immigration activist David Frum explains my position much better than I can:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/dont-gamble-on-trump/506207/?utm_source=twb

That's a very misinformed / sensationalist article relying on exhaustively debunked liberal talking points to make emotional appeals. Seriously. Point to any particularly compelling arguments made and I could easily disprove its validity.

[Boydy]

Buffalo woman sues to stop presidential election (http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/04/buffalo-woman-files-suit-stop-presidential-election-saying-neither-qualified/).

Heh.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why is Bernie Sanders still 66/1 with the bookmaker I'm looking at (whilst other non-Clinton/Trump candidates are all 100/1)?

[Byron]

Presumably because on the outside chance Clinton is indicted by the FBI, then Sanders would come back in.

[Jimmy Floyd]

And would he, as a new Democrat candidate, inherit all her postal votes? Can't believe the West Wing didn't think of this.

[Spikey M]

Trump bringing the lulz in Florida :drool:

[Spikey M]

And would he, as a new Democrat candidate, inherit all her postal votes? Can't believe the West Wing didn't think of this.

Voting would have to start over, Shirley?

[Lewis]

http://i66.tinypic.com/2zi1sie.jpg

Healthy society.

[Pepe]

Beautiful.

[Bartholomert]

That map is probably why men didn't give women or minorities the right to vote for so long in many countries, and I guess in a way they were right.

[Spoonsky]

I talked a black guy I delivered pizza to into voting the other night. Doing my part.

[Dquincy]

With all this celeb nonsense part of me hopes Trump wins.

[Adamski]

I'm going to America on VAYCATION in 3 weeks so I hope he wins too, for the pounds sake.

[Shindig]

I never thought of that. I mean, it might make travel to New York unsafe as shit but at least it'll be cheaper.

[Byron]

Assuming you're white then traveling to a Trump administered USA will be fine.

[John Arne]

I don't want to sound like a cynic, but Trump being rushed off stage looks completely fake. In fact, I just watched an interview with his son, where he see's his father being rushed off stage almost live, and he just smirks and blames the liberal left. He couldn't give a fuck.

[Shindig]

Assuming you're white then traveling to a Trump administered USA will be fine.

They'll be in Syria within two months. Also, Trump's mannerisms are camp as David.

[Magic]

I talked a black guy I delivered pizza to into voting the other night. Doing my part.

For Trump?

[Magic]

I don't want to sound like a cynic, but Trump being rushed off stage looks completely fake. In fact, I just watched an interview with his son, where he see's his father being rushed off stage almost live, and he just smirks and blames the liberal left. He couldn't give a fuck.

:D

I bet he's the white, Christian version of Mert.

[Spikey M]

Bunch of beta cucks trying to slay his dad bruh.

[Shindig]

A man holding a sign saying Republicans Against Trump was tackled by security agents, after shouts that he had a gun.

Look out, he's got a sign.

[Foe]

The FBI have come out and confirmed the latest batch of emails doesn't change their findings.

So what the fuck were you doing putting that sort of doubt into potential voters that close to the election. How many people will have voted for someone other than Clinton assuming there was some sort of wrong doing.

What a fucking shambles.

[Shindig]

They're investigating their own twitter feed too, aren't they? Russian hacks. Even if it's not, there's a ready-made excuse.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The FBI being hapless retards isn't exactly news.

As if the ever yank-dazzled Blair/Cameron wanted to have an imitation bureau over here :face:

[Lewis]

The Royal Unified Constabulary, to save on having to buy new Land Rovers.

[Bartholomert]

The FBI have come out and confirmed the latest batch of emails doesn't change their findings.

So what the fuck were you doing putting that sort of doubt into potential voters that close to the election. How many people will have voted for someone other than Clinton assuming there was some sort of wrong doing.

What a fucking shambles.

Here's your answer:

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/10/29/rush-limbaugh-offers-cynical-view-comeys-probe-still-helping-hillary-405805

"Limbaugh said Comey could be likened to the “Lone Ranger,” riding to Hillary’s rescue because he is “still carrying water for Clinton and is trying to get everybody to stop paying attention to the Wikileaks dump because it’s starting to have an impact.”

If Limbaugh is correct, in a few days the FBI will announce that this was a “false alarm,” and in the meantime, everybody has forgotten about the Wikileaks dumps that have virtually proven that the Clintons profited considerably from something nobody should profit from, a charity."

[John]

Trump profited from his charity. He used charitable donations to pay off lawsuits against him.

And if the FBI were trying to ameliorate the Wikileaks stuff why would they resurrect a damaging and lengthy investigation which will remind plenty of people of all the things they don't like about Clinton rather than, say, have someone leak that Trump was about to be formally charged for sexual assault?

[Bartholomert]

Trump profited from his charity. He used charitable donations to pay off lawsuits against him.

And if the FBI were trying to ameliorate the Wikileaks stuff why would they resurrect a damaging and lengthy investigation which will remind plenty of people of all the things they don't like about Clinton rather than, say, have someone leak that Trump was about to be formally charged for sexual assault?

If you truly think that Trump's activities involving his charity are in any way comparable in scope and nature to the Clinton Foundation, you are an idiot consumed by his partisan prejudices.

[John]

That quote you've posted just says that nobody should profit from a charity. Presumably Limbaugh has had a pop at Trump for doing the same thing on his show at some point, or you'd be calling him a twat under the same bizarre 'equal time' rules you use to smack anybody who says something negative about Trump without balancing it with something negative about Clinton.

What are my 'partisan prejudices'? Since you appear to know both what they are and how they're affecting me, why don't you enlighten us.

[Bernanke]

http://election.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/autographics/EV_history.png

It's over.

Senate is the interesting part.

[Bartholomert]

http://election.princeton.edu/wp-content/uploads/autographics/EV_history.png

It's over.

Senate is the interesting part.

Lol. Princeton University. Keep coping libs.

[John Arne]

https://gyazo.com/5f75d8178edc1491412ecb8d82cce2fc.png

[Byron]

To be fair, Nate has said that a Trump win is within the polling margin of error so entirely possible.

Might stay up tomorrow to watch the results come in.

[John Arne]

Clinton currently at 1/6 with most bookies, Trump at 4's.

[phonics]

Why is the front page of The Daily Mail dedicated to Hilary's e-mails?

[ItalAussie]

It's over.

Senate is the interesting part.

I'm not as confident. Fivethirtyeight have very little margin for error; if one state they've got as blue goes red, the result changes. It's true that polling has underestimated the Democratic vote by 1-2 points for the last three elections. But this is a different beast altogether, so some of the conventional wisdom seems like it's out the window.

[ItalAussie]

Lol. Princeton University. Keep coping libs.
:D

You're great. Although in fairness, the town is a dump.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why is the front page of The Daily Mail dedicated to Hilary's e-mails?

They're having a bit of a meltdown at the moment. These things can normally be attributed to internal politics.

[mugbull]

That map still has Nevada as 50/50, leaning slightly Republican, but based on early polling numbers there it's nearly impossible at this point for it not to go Democrat, and if Nevada goes Democrat (and so heavily), then that changes all the other state predictions as well, esp Florida, Arizona, etc. So whatever the real likelihood of Trump victory, it's way lower than the 35% he has in that 538 graphic

[ItalAussie]

If 538 have it right, then it looks like the critical states are going to be Nevada and New Hampshire. If Clinton gets one of them she should bring it home, with the latter being more likely.

Also, there's going to be a public transport strike in Philadelphia on election day. It's like some kind of fictional country, seriously.

[ItalAussie]

That map still has Nevada as 50/50, leaning slightly Republican, but based on early polling numbers there it's nearly impossible at this point for it not to go Democrat, and if Nevada goes Democrat (and so heavily), then that changes all the other state predictions as well, esp Florida, Arizona, etc. So whatever the real likelihood of Trump victory, it's way lower than the 35% he has in that 538 graphicEarly voting has been good for Clinton, and they flipped Nevada back to very marginally blue in the last hour or so.

I'm a bit of a pessimist though, so I'm hedging my bets. If Trump loses Florida though, it's game over there and then. If multiple states wind up being close, I wonder if it could end up being days until we know the winner.

[phonics]

Also, there's going to be a public transport strike in Philadelphia on election day. It's like some kind of fictional country, seriously.

This has been called off.

[ItalAussie]

Good. Because that's just nuts.

That said, any country that doesn't have elections on a Saturday is basically running a shambolic early draft of democracy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm debating whether I'm going to attempt to watch any of this at fuck knows o'clock. The answer is probably no. Hillary will win very easily.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwoX_ZAUkAEFBjn.jpg:large

Ah yes, I can just imagine in the History books, the Donald Trump election will be referred to as "Brexit Plus Plus Plus"

P.S. Why is he still saying bigly like it's a word?

[Bernanke]

Riggedly bigly.

This could be a useful link tomorrow:

http://votecastr.us/

[Disco]

Bigly :D (which my autocorrect changes to bigot, just saying)

Sounds like a mascot, although I'm not sure you could have a mascot for Trump, anything you came up with would be more believably human than he is.

[leedsrevolution]

I think Trump will win. I'm not political expert or owt, just a hunch. Got a fiver on it.

[Spammer]

He really won't. He can't. Can he?

Nah, fuck it. He won't.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I thought he was meant to be saying 'big league' rather than bigly? Still not exactly the height of statesmanlike verbosity.

[phonics]

Nah, it's definitely bigly.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwnBAOmXAAI0cK5.jpg:large

[Pepe]

Still hope he does.

[Offshore Toon]

I'd rather see Trump in. If the system is fucked, Trump getting elected gives a better chance of the system changing. I feel like there's something more sinister with Hillary's systematic lying, as opposed to Trump's off-the-cuff lunacies. Plus, if things are fucked either way, Trump as President would be a lot funnier.

[Spammer]

That Zizek bloke has come out saying he wants Trump to win as it'll trigger a hard reset for a lot of American politics in general. I'm not buying it though and I don't think it'll be worth the risk.

[Boydy]

This American Life had quite a good section on Minnesota and its Somali immigrants last week.

[Giggles]

If Trump gets in will we see Americans get even more openly racist and knocking the shit out of foreigns in the streets like has happened in the UK? It'll be the greatest TV show of all time if it does.

[bruhnaldo]

While Trump is a deplorable individual, I quite honestly think that Clinton is the anti-Christ.

Good luck, us.

[Lewis]

As for Mrs. Clinton, as for all she’s done for us, and after all she’s suffered on our behalf, she feels she’s owed the presidency and who could possibly disagree? Her life is meaningless if she doesn’t get at least a shot and one can only sympathize. Unless you think, as I do, that people should be distrusted, who are running for therapeutic reasons.

:cool:

I wonder if the CLINTON CRIME FAMILY had him killed.

[7om]

QE Douglas Murray on the US media secretly loving the Trump - Hilary shitfest:


For the networks and media, the increasing polarisation and void are desirable: a necessary part of business. The worse the better. These bosses have encouraged the transformation of politics into WWF wrestling: a fake 'sport' in which participants and observers seem complicit - except some poor saps mistake it for real life.

:uhoh:

[Bartholomert]

QE Douglas Murray on the US media secretly loving the Trump - Hilary shitfest:

:uhoh:

It makes you wonder...maybe those Jewish media elites really just do want to destroy Christianity / White nations...because if that was there aim they sure as heck are doing a great job of it...

[Bartholomert]

If Trump gets in will we see Americans get even more openly racist and knocking the shit out of foreigns in the streets like has happened in the UK? It'll be the greatest TV show of all time if it does.

I don't think Trump is racist, in fact I think by explicitly stating that America is a single unified nation of people (rather than the Democrat identity politics approach), he would do a lot in calming racial tensions in the country.

[Bartholomert]

He really won't. He can't. Can he?

Nah, fuck it. He won't.

It's got a 1 out of 3 shot, to put that into perspective Romney had a 1 in 10 shot statistically.

[Spammer]

It's got a 1 out of 3 shot, to put that into perspective Romney had a 1 in 10 shot statistically.

Romney didn't get in though, so I fail to see what your point is.

[Bartholomert]

Romney didn't get in though, so I fail to see what your point is.

That it could happen.

[Adamski]

Will you be a defence lawyer or prosecution?

[phonics]

"Jewish Media Elites"

:D

Not even bothering with dog whistles anymore.

[Spammer]

That it could happen.

Of course it could happen. Using Romney, who didn't in practice get in, as in example for that is a bit silly though, isn't it.

[Pepe]

The best part of this ending is that mert will finally be able to reveal what none of us has managed to figure out yet which is that he has been trolling all along and he will be able to go back to talking about sloots and cucks and those other things he like.

[Bartholomert]

Will you be a defence lawyer or prosecution?

I'll be defending evil corporations with money (usually against other evil corporations so it's not that bad).

[Bartholomert]

"Jewish Media Elites"

:D

Not even bothering with dog whistles anymore.

My girlfriend is Jewish, many of my close friends are Jewish, I have no issues with Jewish people, I support Israel and above all I don't believe there is any sort of mass concerted conspiracy among the Jewish people to undermine Western Civilization.

But the results of decades of the promotion of progressive ideology is alarming, America (and Europe) is imploding, racial tensions and political polarization is unparalleled in our history, etc. If there were evil shadowy figures in the background who were trying to destroy the West, they are succeeding fantastically. It's probably just this:

http://i.imgur.com/pGKI8om.png

[Disco]

Alan Moore, the voice of reason. Oh no hang on, that's Alan Moore who worships a Roman snake god that he made up himself (or something).

[mugbull]

Racial tensions and polarization are unparalleled precisely because of people like Mert. The types who will go to incredible lengths to stay loyal to ideologues and uneducated, ignorant demagogues, no matter what they say or do, just because they want to feel "part" of something, attached to some goal or concrete plan, no matter what it entails or how wrong it is. The only people I've met who support Trump are the rural, uneducated working-class, for whom Trump might legitimately be the better candidate, and fairly intelligent upper-middle class to wealthy people with an incredible lack of self esteem and a vendetta against certain types of people and certain types of thought, in general quite angry at the world and looking to express themselves as uniquely insightful individuals through faux-intellectual justifications they claim as truth. There is so much hatred and disdain for others coming out of these peoples mouths it really is scary. I've never met someone who is actually sympathetic towards the rest of humanity, and who understands issues in a global and historical context, that is voting for Trump.

That's the real tragedy of this election. He won't win tomorrow, but he'll have made so many people bitter and hateful.

[Bartholomert]

Racial tensions and polarization are unparalleled precisely because of people like Mert. The types who will go to incredible lengths to stay loyal to ideologues and uneducated, ignorant demagogues, no matter what they say or do, just because they want to feel "part" of something, attached to some goal or concrete plan, no matter what it entails or how wrong it is. The only people I've met who support Trump are the rural, uneducated working-class, for whom Trump might legitimately be the better candidate, and fairly intelligent upper-middle class to wealthy people with an incredible lack of self esteem and a vendetta against certain types of people and certain types of thought, in general quite angry at the world and looking to express themselves as uniquely insightful individuals through faux-intellectual justifications they claim as truth. There is so much hatred and disdain for others coming out of these peoples mouths it really is scary. I've never met someone who is actually sympathetic towards the rest of humanity, and who understands issues in a global and historical context, that is voting for Trump.

That's the real tragedy of this election. He won't win tomorrow, but he'll have made so many people bitter and hateful.

Lol change Mert with Mokbul, Trump with Clinton, rural for urban and it's the same thing. You are detached from reality or any semblance of objectivity.

And lest we forget, Trump voters are more educated and have higher median income than Clinton supporters.

[Pepe]

What were everyone's favorite moments? Christie donning Rubio is probably mine.

[Pepe]

'Hillary' chimping out at a black girl was good too.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Re Mert above, there was a good quote I saw earlier, which is actually by Ken Clarke about Brexit but just as well applies to Trump and his voters I think:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cwpy6OrXgAELql1.jpg

[Byron]

Christie's remorseful stare at that Trump rally. I was just waiting for him to blink twice into the camera.

[Bartholomert]

"Because you'd be in jail" retort was a classic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj78yWOiKkw

[bruhnaldo]

There was no highlights for me because it's all incredibly saddening.

[7om]

My supervisor voted last week and apparently he didn't even get ID'd to get his ballot.

I might pop along and try my luck.

[Lewis]

What were everyone's favorite moments? Christie donning Rubio is probably mine.

That was good. I also liked all of those times 'The Donald' was DESTROYED by bloggers and comedians and he had to quit the race.

[Pepe]

"Because you'd be in jail" retort was a classic.

Oh yes, that one was great too.

[Pepe]

Jeb (!) probably still has nightmares of the Donald donning him senseless.

[Bartholomert]

My supervisor voted last week and apparently he didn't even get ID'd to get his ballot.

I might pop along and try my luck.

When I voted in NC they asked me for my address, I gave a wrong one, asked if I had ID, I said yes, they never checked it. Democrats gunna Democrat.

[ItalAussie]

And lest we forget, Trump voters are more educated and have higher median income than Clinton supporters.
I think those numbers flipped over in the back end of the campaign. Certainly there was a stage where it looked like he might be the first Republican candidate in ages to lose college-educated white voters. He steadied the ship, obviously, but it's not so clear cut. He's still doing worse with that demographic than either Romney or McCain did. He's really ring-fenced non-college-educated white voters in a way that none of his predecessors pulled off.

[Bartholomert]

I think those numbers flipped over in the back end of the campaign. Certainly there was a stage where it looked like he might be the first Republican candidate in ages to lose college-educated white voters. He steadied the ship, obviously, but it's not so clear cut. He's still doing worse with that demographic than either Romney or McCain did. He's really ring-fenced non-college-educated white voters in a way that none of his predecessors pulled off.

Ya, also I was relying mostly on articles relating to the primary:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/?ex_cid=story-twitter

[Spoonsky]

I'm debating whether I'm going to attempt to watch any of this at fuck knows o'clock. The answer is probably no. Hillary will win very easily.

I watched David Cameron resign on my computer at one in the morning. There's something to be said for other countries' politics as entertainment, especially this shitshow.

[Boydy]

I've booked Wednesday off to stay up all night watching it.

[Offshore Toon]

What time would be best to wake up and see if its getting interesting or not? If its clear-cut it'll be as good as over by about 3am won't it?

[Pepe]

If true that is even more pathetic than having to take sick days to help someone you don't like.

[Magic]

I've just had this e-mail through from Ryanair. Pretty lol:

https://s18.postimg.org/72588u9c9/lol.png

[Shindig]

I wouldn't take time off for this. Any outcome will result in a sour recount.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've already booked my annual leave for the French elections in April (both rounds).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_2017

You start off thinking 'ooh no not Marine' but then you look at the other options and think you know what, France has had it.

[Bartholomert]

Trump up 2...in MICHIGAN:

https://twitter.com/trfgrp/status/795728426770567169

[Pepe]

What is there to watch?

[Pepe]

I've already booked my annual leave for the French elections in April (both rounds).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_2017

You start off thinking 'ooh no not Marine' but then you look at the other options and think you know what, France has had it.

Mélenchon .

[Lewis]

A load of bores boring on about the boring result.

[Pepe]

A load of bores boring on about the boring result.

So the same as in here. Count me in.

[Pepe]

What I'm really looking forward to is the in-depth analysis of the polls afterwards. Who was right? Who was wrong? Can't wait!

Is there a poll on which poll is more likely to be right?

[Boydy]

Nathalie Arthuad looks like she could be one of my left-wing women shameful lusts in that picture but a google image search reveals much worse. Probably still would though. Imagine the pillow talk. :drool:

[Boydy]

A load of bores boring on about the boring result.

Like you have anything better to do or get up for the next morning.

[GS]

It's the end of civilisation in the new world at any rate, and that has to be worth the price of the ticket.

[ItalAussie]

Ryan added that Trump “does actually support our agenda. He may not talk about it or run on it, but he does support our ‘Better Way’ agenda.”

River in Egypt.

America broke politics. That's what happened. I wonder how academics in a hundred years will study this election.

[GS]

When you're electing prosecutors and sheriffs, it's time to consider whether you may have taken 'democratic accountability' just a little bit too far.

[ItalAussie]

When you're electing prosecutors and sheriffs, it's time to consider whether you may have taken 'democratic accountability' just a little bit too far.

Electing judges is the worst. They frequently base their campaigns on how many people they've put in prison.

Just think about that. The public measure for many judges is not how dedicated they are to see the law enforced correctly, or how well they understand its many details. It's how many "bad dudes" they put behind bars. Otherwise their opponent accuses them of being "soft on crime". This is not how judges should be appointed.

[GS]

I agree. Their system is a joke. Some of the gerrymandering in the House is a genuine disgrace for a supposed democracy as well.

[ItalAussie]

http://web.csulb.edu/~astevens/posc100/files/notes/nc12.jpg

Districts 1 and 12 in North Carolina. Look at that shambles. It's not even the worst of it, either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/05/15/americas-most-gerrymandered-congressional-districts/

Eight of the ten worst districts were drawn by Republicans too. I'm kind of getting tired of the false equivalence that both parties would do it if they could, because it really does seem like the Republicans stoop faster and lower when they get a sniff of a chance. Like the fake Clinton mailers with fraudulent voting instructions that have been circulating around of late, and the voter intimidation stuff. Plenty of Republicans have acknowledged shamelessly and publicly that "voter fraud" measures are attempts to reduce the minority vote, which is a truly horrifying sentiment. It's possible that they're just better at fighting dirty, but it really does seem like they don't mind it that much either.


EDIT: Credit where it's due, as there are exceptions. Maryland gerrymandering is a Democratic pastime, and apparently the borders in Republican-controlled Indiana and Nevada are very sensible. But it simply shouldn't be in the hands of politicians at all.

[ItalAussie]

In a fascinating piece in BuzzFeed, Craig Silverman and Lawrence Alexander report that much of the fake Trump news filling your feed is produced by teenagers in Macedonia. The teens don’t actually want Trump to win, and don’t have any real interest in sowing chaos in America. They simply want hits. As the authors wrote, the trolls “learned the best way to generate traffic is to get their politics stories to spread on Facebook — and the best way to generate shares on Facebook is to publish sensationalist and often false content that caters to Trump supporters.”
The best way to measure a people is to see where outsiders put their money.

[Bartholomert]

The reason there are more gerrymandered Republican districts isn't because Republicans are more evil, it's more so because Republicans dominate state-level politics (combined with the Washington Post being your source).

[ItalAussie]

The reason there are more gerrymandered Republican districts isn't because Republicans are more evil, it's more so because Republicans dominate state-level politics (combined with the Washington Post being your source).

Measures of gerrymandering are are simple mathematical geometry. Even I'm not willing to claim that mathematics is inherently liberal.

[Queenslander]

Trump is most welcome to run for one of Queensland's Senate seats after he loses. He can live anywhere North of Rockhampton and spout the same shit and he will be worshipped as a hero by the Boomers.

[ItalAussie]

Trump is most welcome to run for one of Queensland's Senate seats after he loses. He can live anywhere North of Rockhampton and spout the same shit and he will be worshipped as a hero by the Boomers.

He'd probably get on worryingly well with Pauline. Let's just hope they never, ever meet.

[Queenslander]

I reckon she adores him.

[Bartholomert]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_elections_electoral_college_map_no_toss_ups.h tml

Final RCP aggregator of polls shows the electorla college at Clinton 272 - 266 Trump; the only difference between them is NH which is at +0.6 Trump. This is going to be close, anyone who says differently is ignorant or has a blatant agenda.

[Queenslander]

Hey Mert I bet you $50 in Australian currency that Mr Trump will lose the election.

[John Arne]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_elections_electoral_college_map_no_toss_ups.h tml

Final RCP aggregator of polls shows the electorla college at Clinton 272 - 266 Trump; the only difference between them is NH which is at +0.6 Trump. This is going to be close, anyone who says differently is ignorant or has a blatant agenda.

You couldn't make it up.

I trust bookies more than I trust RealClearPolitics, and the bookies have Clinton at 1/5.

[Bartholomert]

You couldn't make it up.

I trust bookies more than I trust RealClearPolitics, and the bookies have Clinton at 1/5.

So exactly where they had Brexit?

[ItalAussie]

I agree that it's going to be close. Polling aggregation suggests that Clinton does have a buffer in New Hampshire, and a narrow one in Nevada (where early vote exit polls have been good for Clinton, apparently). North Carolina and Florida are toss-ups. It's quite possible that every other state is basically decided.

Trump needs to sweep that to win, and it's not impossible that he might. I'd be surprised though.

[ItalAussie]

A bunch of my Harvard/MIT friends in Boston are heading up to knock on doors and get out the vote in New Hampshire. The ones who can't go up are working on phone banks. Everyone's figured out that if it does wind up being that close, New Hampshire is quite likely to decide the election. There's going to be a lot of out-of-state people there that day.

[Bartholomert]

A bunch of my Harvard/MIT friends in Boston are heading up to knock on doors and get out the vote in New Hampshire. The ones who can't go up are working on phone banks. Everyone's figured out that if it does wind up being that close, New Hampshire is quite likely to decide the election. There's going to be a lot of out-of-state people there that day.

Bill Belichick and Tom Brady endorsed him tonight, they are basically religious figures in New England could be a game changer.

Also last rally going on right now on Facebook live, Trump is at 80k viewers, Clinton is at 4.5k. Enthusiasm.

[John Arne]

So exactly where they had Brexit?

And the same as Obama in 2012.

Brexit was the exception, not the norm.

[John Arne]

First Results In

Dixville Notch
Clinton 4
Trump 2
Johnson 1
Romney (:D) 1

Hart's Location
Clinton 17
Trump 14
Johnson 3
Sanders 1
Kasich 1

Millsfield
Clinton 4
Trump 16
Sanders 1

Overall
Trump 35 - 25 Clinton

Why on earth do people write-in vote before a candidate has been chosen for each party?

[John Arne]

Just watching Sky, and apparently these guys are normally hanging around Times Square all the time... is that right? If so, Jesus Christ... talk about a militarising your cities.


https://gyazo.com/3fdf0a1cc01dec2117543176f7be7ecc.png

[Spoonsky]

This is going to be close, anyone who says differently is ignorant or has a blatant agenda.

Idk. I think the election has been so unpredictable that there's virtually nothing that we can say with any certainty, except that Trump won't win by a large margin.

Tomorrow will be an ugly day, in reality if Clinton wins and on the internet if Trump wins.

[Shindig]

America has never gotten past the idea of downscaling military in times of peace. There's too much money involved in all the wrong places.

[Bartholomert]

And the same as Obama in 2012.

Brexit was the exception, not the norm.

Obama was polling much better than Hillary at this stage.

[John Arne]

Obama was polling much better than Hillary at this stage.

Not according to your friends at RealClearPolitics... They have Clinton up more now than they had Obama in the days leading up to the election.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html

EDIT; Unless, of course, you are saying that RCP aren't reliable...

[John]

Electing judges is the worst. They frequently base their campaigns on how many people they've put in prison.

Just think about that. The public measure for many judges is not how dedicated they are to see the law enforced correctly, or how well they understand its many details. It's how many "bad dudes" they put behind bars. Otherwise their opponent accuses them of being "soft on crime". This is not how judges should be appointed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJoHuJ3KTB4

Leave them to it.

[Magic]

Newby as a second name.

[ItalAussie]

America has never gotten past the idea of downscaling military in times of peace. There's too much money involved in all the wrong places.

Eisenhower figured this out in the '50s, and gave one of the great orations on the topic. The military-industrial complex one.

America promptly said "great speech" and then ignored it entirely.

[Mazuuurk]

I'm with Mert here. I reckon this will be super close. Looking at how much the polls have swayed, it's clear that a shitload of people are undecided and also quite clueless what either person stands for. The fact that anyone evens sways back and fourth between them is a little insane in itself.

What I make of it is that Trump would have had this bagged if he could have just controlled himself a little bit, and that Pussy tape (etc) wouldn't have come out. Basically - it doesn't matter that he seems batshit crazy and never really seems to say anything of context to, well, anything.

Looking at the graph on this site, for example, you can clearly see each time Trump fucks something up:
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

It's like he's the slowest racing car in a racing game you know - once he gains momentum he's hard to stop, but each time he takes a bump he has to sort of restart from scratch to catch up.


I dunno what I'm on about, but I have a nasty feeling that everyone will walk around thinking "it's probably fine and Clinton seems like an idiot but at least she seems fairly normal" and then, just like with Brexit, we'll wake up tomorrow to a Trump victory because a bunch of people thought "ah fuck it, my vote isn't important anyway" in the booths and just voted out of anger.

[Boydy]

Maybe democracy isn't very good.

[John Arne]

Hillary starting to pull out on 538

https://gyazo.com/a7bda450a33768ffb3a1d687e1081556.png

[ItalAussie]

What I make of it is that Trump would have had this bagged if he could have just controlled himself a little bit, and that Pussy tape (etc) wouldn't have come out. Basically - it doesn't matter that he seems batshit crazy and never really seems to say anything of context to, well, anything.
I disagree. The single biggest game-changer in terms of the post-convention running percentages was the first debate. That was 100% just Trump being Trump. That was the point where he was judged on his temperament, his policy, and his communication.

[Yevrah]

Brillo is fronting the Beeb's coverage. :cool:

[Pepe]

'mon Donnie, give us the liberal tears we've been waiting for. :drool:

[7om]

Brillo is fronting the Beeb's coverage. :cool:

Interesting.

Maybe the Beeb are worried Dimbleby won't make it through the night this time. He looked to be hanging on by a thread for the referendum.

[Spammer]

Who's brillo?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Dimbleby should have gone out to pasture and been replaced by Brillo years ago.

[Spammer]

Andrew Neil. Righto.

[Bartholomert]

I disagree. The single biggest game-changer in terms of the post-convention running percentages was the first debate. That was 100% just Trump being Trump. That was the point where he was judged on his temperament, his policy, and his communication.

I honestly think if Trump had delivered a Pence like performance in that first debate, he might have been cruising to victory right now. He was just bad.

[Kikó]

Who's brillo?

Andrew Neil.

[Disco]

As Hammer only just discovered the nickname and Kiko appears to have been aware of it for some time I wonder if anyone has a picture that might demonstrate such a disparity in time or even perhaps age?

[phonics]

795996654033862656

Democracy!

[Mazuuurk]

I disagree. The single biggest game-changer in terms of the post-convention running percentages was the first debate. That was 100% just Trump being Trump. That was the point where he was judged on his temperament, his policy, and his communication.

Wait, so you're saying the American people were actually making some fairly normal judgement calls? I'm not buying that.

[Spoonsky]

I wonder if we'll see a lot of write-ins for Cruz, Kasich, Romney, etc.

About to go and vote.

[bruhnaldo]

Voted this morning, was relatively easy and painless. I did, however, skip president, go do the entire rest of the ballot, and then spend 20 minutes staring at president though before finally locking in a selection. At that point, I went home, cried in the shower because of how stupid our country is, then went on about my day.

All and all a great morning.

[phonics]

Trump getting booed in his own polling place as he turns up to vote :D

I know he's never been a politician and Clinton is from there too but what's the record for a Presidential Nominee losing his home state?

[Spoonsky]

Voted this morning, was relatively easy and painless. I did, however, skip president, go do the entire rest of the ballot, and then spend 20 minutes staring at president though before finally locking in a selection. At that point, I went home, cried in the shower because of how stupid our country is, then went on about my day.

All and all a great morning.

Clinton?

I envy you, your vote counts a fuckton.

[phonics]

Did you do your civic duty and vote for Evan, Spoons?

[Yeldoow]

795996654033862656

Democracy!

Did they only count the Romney vote because there where only 8 votes so why not? Or do they actually count the write ins?

[Yevrah]

Trump's going to win.

[Byron]

I did see the BBC have recorded much closer polling for Clinton in Colorado, which was seen to be a bit of a banker for her.

I fear the unthinkable may be about to happen.

[Pepe]

Trump's going to win.

:drool:

[Pepe]

Can't imagine a person that suits the role of President of the US of A better than Trump. Maybe Hulk Hogan.

[mugbull]

I did see the BBC have recorded much closer polling for Clinton in Colorado, which was seen to be a bit of a banker for her.

I fear the unthinkable may be about to happen.

I mean, it still has her up by almost 3%

[Byron]

I mean, it still has her up by almost 3%

Yeah but if a home banker is now only a 3% win, then a similar swing elsewhere will see states like Florida and North Carolina going to Trump.

[Giggles]

This is the only fucking thread that'll be posted in until about Friday won't it? :(

And we only have around four Americans here anyway. What's the big deal for everyone else or is it just comedy value?

[bruhnaldo]

Clinton?

I envy you, your vote counts a fuckton.

Honestly I did end up going with Trump but it honestly wasn't easy at all.

I have found myself seriously considering Hillary in recent weeks because she does have a pretty good record when it comes to caring about children and families in general. But that was the best I could do when it came up with reasons to vote FOR her.

I kept coming back to "But can I really vote for Donald Trump?"

The reasons I ended up voting for Trump are:



1. While I accept that being a world superpower comes with great responsibility to mankind in general, I don't really feel we should have to take the lead when it comes to humanitarian issues, such as the immigration of displaced refugees.

While I certainly sympathize and could never imagine the horror those people are going through in Syria, for me, the responsibility of government is to take care of our own people that are already here. If the entire population was living comfortable, healthy lives, that would be one thing.

But then I stop and think about all of the times I see our Veterans (and you know America's penchant for the military) standing on street corners begging for change... When I hear stories from my cousin who works at a Veterans Administration hospital about sick, dying Veterans who should be getting much more expansive coverage to help them deal with the debilitating issues that they have to deal with. When I, at my own hospital, see people who have worked their entire life and given their hard-earned dollars to the government in form of taxes being basically left for dead once they reach retirement age or their bodies stop working for them in such a way they can make a good, honest leaving because they barely can put $50 in their pocket after Social Security pays out their Medicare premiums... and on top of that, Medicare only covers 80%, so they're left with 20% of the bill and only $50 to make payments toward their medical responsibilities. Often leaving them afraid to utilize medical facilities in general.

And I think about how, while it's not a bad thing to help people, but how we spend so much money subsidizing other country's poor people who come to this country. This has nothing to do with how hard-working or honest they may be, as someone who works in public benefits I realize more than many that everyone just needs a helping hand every now and then.... but by giving them that leg up through different programs and subsidies, taking government funds that are paid for by the current tax-payers in this country that could in turn help the very people who are either from this country or have legally immigrated to this country and are hard-working, tax-payers who believe in our system.

But the fact of the matter is, in most cases, people don't emigrate to America because they are coming from a decent situation in their own country. Usually these people are dirt poor, have little to no opportunity whatsoever, and that is quite frankly awful. But as I mentioned before, the responsibility, in my eyes, of the government is to it's own people. The governments of these countries' that we experience this type of illegal immigration from should be held more accountable.

I also realize it's not that easy at all, but maybe if these leaders had to actually answer to their own people it would start political uprising in those very countries' and help kickstart the rebuilding of those countries themselves.

I'm not saying we should deport everyone who is here illegally. I would much rather give people better, more inclusive avenues to legally migrate. Once legal, these people will be able to pay into the tax-pool and help us fund more expansive programs that can in turn help our poor, disabled, and disadvantaged.

2. Jobs, I really don't think we do enough in this country to keep jobs in it. Trump is no stranger to this, considering most of his products are made in Cambodia, China, etc. I'd like to imagine (read: dream) that Trump understands the constraints of business and would be able to open avenues in order to help businesses keep and create jobs in this country. The downside to this, of course, is what we saw with the GM / bank bailouts, where greed wins and the people at the top just take a bigger slice of the pie for themselves. Unfortunately that was a risk I was willing to take. While our unemployment rate is at it's lowest in years, that doesn't really paint the entire picture. The division between upper and lower class (there is no middle class in this country now) has never been wider. Raising minimum wage simply isn't enough.

3. Healthcare, specifically Obamacare. As someone who has been a licensed "navigator" for Obamacare and had worked in medical insurance my entire adult life (which only amounts for 9 years of experience but..), Obamacare is the biggest scam I've ever seen. Basically, people with this Obamacare coverages have coverage that barely covers anything at all. There's all this language written into their plans that allow the insurance to deny different bits of the bill.

For example, if they give you a typical aspirin, sometimes they can write that off as a "self-administered drug" (even if the nurse literally gave it to you) and they can write that off. Obviously aspirin isn't wildly expensive, but that's just a very small scale instance.

Plus, if you have insurance, this can keep you from applying for programs at the hospital that help alleviate the bill.

In fact, most times hospitals and providers have specific contracts that allow monetary adjustments of bills themselves. So for example, if a patient has a 30,000$ bill but has Bruh Cross Health Insurance (made up obv.), the contract can say "Okay, we'll only make you pay 10% of that in exchange for being an 'in-network' facility. So, in reality, patients and consumers end up paying the insurance companies thousands upon thousands of dollars more than they have to pay out, which of course is the point of running a business, but at the same time it's not actually helping the previously uninsured.

On top of that, this initiative does little for veterans whose VA benefits have been drying up for decades now.

4. Lastly, abortion. This is a little more personal for me. I grew up actually very much pro-choice, because I thought more "what business is it of mine to tell a woman what to do with their body?" and that's all fine and well, but then I found out my cousin (we have a small extended family as well) was adopted.

Now she has two beautiful children, a happy marriage, a great life, etc. etc. All I ever think about is how none of that would be possible without the courage of her mother to at least follow through with the pregnancy and give us this bundle of joy.

On the other hand, I realize that not all adoption/orphan stories end up this way. A lot of said kids grow up with psychological issues because of abandonment and things like that, which of course is awful, but I can't help but think giving those kids at least a chance is better than not giving them a chance at all.

Also, I recently found out 32,000 rape cases in 1996 (couldn't find an update number) resulted in pregnancy. I could not imagine the trauma of that and I feel abjectly awful again for these women. Personally, I could understand the want to have an abortion in that regard, but would still hope that maybe these women could find the courage to push through and realize the potential of life that the kid may have, even if it's not with that woman in particular.

If anyone actually read all this, thanks for your time. I just feel really comfortable sharing here and hope my perspective is entertaining at the very least.

tl;dr:

1. Immigration / Doing more for our Vets
2. Jobs
3. Healthcare
4. Abortion

[7om]

:drool:

If Trump wins :drool:

I won't be able to stop lolling at all the tears.

[Pepe]

If Trump wins :drool:

I won't be able to stop lolling at all the tears.

The smugness if she wins though. :sick:

[John Arne]

Just on point 1 Bruh, the US isn't anywhere near taking the lead on accepting refugees. In absolute numbers they aren't in the top 10, in % of population they aren't in the top 60 or something.
I'm not arguing here - you made your decision - just wanted to point this out.

[Pepe]

There is also zero connection between refugees and the veterans situation, but whatever.

[Boydy]

honestly i did end up going with trump but it honestly wasn't easy at all.

i have found myself seriously considering hillary in recent weeks because she does have a pretty good record when it comes to caring about children and families in general. But that was the best i could do when it came up with reasons to vote for her.

I kept coming back to "but can i really vote for donald trump?"

the reasons i ended up voting for trump are:



i'm a fucking idiot.

tl;dr:

1. Immigration / doing more for our vets
2. Jobs
3. Healthcare
4. Abortion
ftfy.

[Bartholomert]

Honestly I did end up going with Trump but it honestly wasn't easy at all.

I have found myself seriously considering Hillary in recent weeks because she does have a pretty good record when it comes to caring about children and families in general. But that was the best I could do when it came up with reasons to vote FOR her.

I kept coming back to "But can I really vote for Donald Trump?"

The reasons I ended up voting for Trump are:



1. While I accept that being a world superpower comes with great responsibility to mankind in general, I don't really feel we should have to take the lead when it comes to humanitarian issues, such as the immigration of displaced refugees.

While I certainly sympathize and could never imagine the horror those people are going through in Syria, for me, the responsibility of government is to take care of our own people that are already here. If the entire population was living comfortable, healthy lives, that would be one thing.

But then I stop and think about all of the times I see our Veterans (and you know America's penchant for the military) standing on street corners begging for change... When I hear stories from my cousin who works at a Veterans Administration hospital about sick, dying Veterans who should be getting much more expansive coverage to help them deal with the debilitating issues that they have to deal with. When I, at my own hospital, see people who have worked their entire life and given their hard-earned dollars to the government in form of taxes being basically left for dead once they reach retirement age or their bodies stop working for them in such a way they can make a good, honest leaving because they barely can put $50 in their pocket after Social Security pays out their Medicare premiums... and on top of that, Medicare only covers 80%, so they're left with 20% of the bill and only $50 to make payments toward their medical responsibilities. Often leaving them afraid to utilize medical facilities in general.

And I think about how, while it's not a bad thing to help people, but how we spend so much money subsidizing other country's poor people who come to this country. This has nothing to do with how hard-working or honest they may be, as someone who works in public benefits I realize more than many that everyone just needs a helping hand every now and then.... but by giving them that leg up through different programs and subsidies, taking government funds that are paid for by the current tax-payers in this country that could in turn help the very people who are either from this country or have legally immigrated to this country and are hard-working, tax-payers who believe in our system.

But the fact of the matter is, in most cases, people don't emigrate to America because they are coming from a decent situation in their own country. Usually these people are dirt poor, have little to no opportunity whatsoever, and that is quite frankly awful. But as I mentioned before, the responsibility, in my eyes, of the government is to it's own people. The governments of these countries' that we experience this type of illegal immigration from should be held more accountable.

I also realize it's not that easy at all, but maybe if these leaders had to actually answer to their own people it would start political uprising in those very countries' and help kickstart the rebuilding of those countries themselves.

I'm not saying we should deport everyone who is here illegally. I would much rather give people better, more inclusive avenues to legally migrate. Once legal, these people will be able to pay into the tax-pool and help us fund more expansive programs that can in turn help our poor, disabled, and disadvantaged.

2. Jobs, I really don't think we do enough in this country to keep jobs in it. Trump is no stranger to this, considering most of his products are made in Cambodia, China, etc. I'd like to imagine (read: dream) that Trump understands the constraints of business and would be able to open avenues in order to help businesses keep and create jobs in this country. The downside to this, of course, is what we saw with the GM / bank bailouts, where greed wins and the people at the top just take a bigger slice of the pie for themselves. Unfortunately that was a risk I was willing to take. While our unemployment rate is at it's lowest in years, that doesn't really paint the entire picture. The division between upper and lower class (there is no middle class in this country now) has never been wider. Raising minimum wage simply isn't enough.

3. Healthcare, specifically Obamacare. As someone who has been a licensed "navigator" for Obamacare and had worked in medical insurance my entire adult life (which only amounts for 9 years of experience but..), Obamacare is the biggest scam I've ever seen. Basically, people with this Obamacare coverages have coverage that barely covers anything at all. There's all this language written into their plans that allow the insurance to deny different bits of the bill.

For example, if they give you a typical aspirin, sometimes they can write that off as a "self-administered drug" (even if the nurse literally gave it to you) and they can write that off. Obviously aspirin isn't wildly expensive, but that's just a very small scale instance.

Plus, if you have insurance, this can keep you from applying for programs at the hospital that help alleviate the bill.

In fact, most times hospitals and providers have specific contracts that allow monetary adjustments of bills themselves. So for example, if a patient has a 30,000$ bill but has Bruh Cross Health Insurance (made up obv.), the contract can say "Okay, we'll only make you pay 10% of that in exchange for being an 'in-network' facility. So, in reality, patients and consumers end up paying the insurance companies thousands upon thousands of dollars more than they have to pay out, which of course is the point of running a business, but at the same time it's not actually helping the previously uninsured.

On top of that, this initiative does little for veterans whose VA benefits have been drying up for decades now.

4. Lastly, abortion. This is a little more personal for me. I grew up actually very much pro-choice, because I thought more "what business is it of mine to tell a woman what to do with their body?" and that's all fine and well, but then I found out my cousin (we have a small extended family as well) was adopted.

Now she has two beautiful children, a happy marriage, a great life, etc. etc. All I ever think about is how none of that would be possible without the courage of her mother to at least follow through with the pregnancy and give us this bundle of joy.

On the other hand, I realize that not all adoption/orphan stories end up this way. A lot of said kids grow up with psychological issues because of abandonment and things like that, which of course is awful, but I can't help but think giving those kids at least a chance is better than not giving them a chance at all.

Also, I recently found out 32,000 rape cases in 1996 (couldn't find an update number) resulted in pregnancy. I could not imagine the trauma of that and I feel abjectly awful again for these women. Personally, I could understand the want to have an abortion in that regard, but would still hope that maybe these women could find the courage to push through and realize the potential of life that the kid may have, even if it's not with that woman in particular.

If anyone actually read all this, thanks for your time. I just feel really comfortable sharing here and hope my perspective is entertaining at the very least.

tl;dr:

1. Immigration / Doing more for our Vets
2. Jobs
3. Healthcare
4. Abortion

Great post. It was really nice (maybe inspiring no homo) to see an American think like a clear-eyed American even though I'd disagree with some of your interpretations. I'm glad you decided Trump in the end :thbup:

[phonics]

ftfy.

That's rude. I vehemently disagree with Bruh and think he's wrong on most points but stuff like the above is exactly why anyone left of Cameron comes across as a complete cunt.

[Boydy]

That's rude. I vehemently disagree with Bruh and think he's wrong on most points but stuff like the above is exactly why anyone left of Cameron comes across as a complete cunt.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/9ohlKnRDAmotG/200.gif#12

[Jimmy Floyd]

Your veterans are on street corners because you live in the West's most callous society. If you want to abide by the sink-or-swim mentality that underpins the whole of American life, then unfortunately veterans are going to suffer the consequences of that. It's not a separate issue to, say, healthcare, it's all part of the same thing. Or at least that's my outsider's perspective.

[phonics]

796003702779867136

http://media0.giphy.com/media/9W4FM9Eis7Vyo/giphy.gif

4Chan has been fun too, a couple highlights

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwwhB2YVEAAus31.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwwMqi5W8AEBqIb.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwwdnYoVEAA-cMu.jpg:large

while we're here, lets have some more fuckery

796054150509379585

[Adamski]

Fuck off Phonics :D

[Bartholomert]

Your veterans are on street corners because you live in the West's most callous society. If you want to abide by the sink-or-swim mentality that underpins the whole of American life, then unfortunately veterans are going to suffer the consequences of that. It's not a separate issue to, say, healthcare, it's all part of the same thing. Or at least that's my outsider's perspective.

If we spent less money on foreign wars and taking care of low skilled illegal and legal immigrants form the third world, then we could spend more resources on taking care of our veterans and, combined with Trump's stance on trade and regulations/taxation, providing them with jobs. That's what Bruh's point was.

[Boydy]

Taking care of people instead of letting them take care of themselves? That sounds like socialism.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Taking care of people instead of letting them take care of themselves? That sounds like socialism.

Are you some student politics idiot or can there be a middle ground?

[Adamski]

If we spent less money on foreign wars and taking care of low skilled illegal and legal immigrants form the third world, then we could spend more resources on taking care of our veterans and, combined with Trump's stance on trade and regulations/taxation, providing them with jobs. That's what Bruh's point was.

You wouldn't though.

[Spoonsky]

I thought it was pretty established that legal immigration is a net benefit for the economy, or at least breaks even?

The argument Bruh should have made is that Hillary is more likely to get us involved in another war which will lead to more veterans.

[Lewis]

Some sort of third way.

[Bartholomert]

You wouldn't though.

I wouldn't, but Bruh would and there's reason to suggest Trump would too.

[Bartholomert]

I thought it was pretty established that legal immigration is a net benefit for the economy, or at least breaks even?

The argument Bruh should have made is that Hillary is more likely to get us involved in another war which will lead to more veterans.

LEGAL immigration. And also net benefit to economy (debatable) =/= net benefit to native born Americans.

[Boydy]

Are you some student politics idiot or can there be a middle ground?

I was making fun of Mert, you gimp.

[Lewis]

Over here the average European immigrant is beneficial (more likely to have a degree and that), and I'm sure you don't get many Americans in council houses, but the third world mob are a massive drain. It's always a pointless talking about the economics of 'immigration' as a whole, but I suppose nobody would want to follow the logic to the obvious conclusions.

[Spoonsky]

LEGAL immigration. And also net benefit to economy (debatable) =/= net benefit to native born Americans.

Bruh was talking about legal immigration, though. He was talking about refugees from war-torn countries, virtually all of which are legal immigrants, surely. It's not like some Syrian is going to be hopping the fence.

To your second point, obviously you can argue it on cultural grounds, whether it's ok that people in Minnesota are getting scared of Somalis. That's got to be one of the biggest differences between Trump and Clinton supporters: whether (legal) immigration is inherently a good thing for the country or not.

[Boydy]

Over here the average European immigrant is beneficial (more likely to have a degree and that), and I'm sure you don't get many Americans in council houses, but the third world mob are a massive drain. It's always a pointless talking about the economics of 'immigration' as a whole, but I suppose nobody would want to follow the logic to the obvious conclusions.

You seem to say stuff along those lines quite a lot (that the non-Europeans are the shit ones). I can understand that argument from a culture perspective but has there been any research done on economic benefit by country of origin or similar?

[Vim]

Bruh what state are you in?

[Adamski]

If we spent less money on foreign wars and taking care of low skilled illegal and legal immigrants form the third world, then we could spend more resources on taking care of our veterans and, combined with Trump's stance on trade and regulations/taxation, providing them with jobs. That's what Bruh's point was.

Aren't you an immigrant?

[Vim]

Does that make a difference? I'm an immigrant and I still agree with some anti-immigration points.

[Magic]

You seem to say stuff along those lines quite a lot (that the non-Europeans are the shit ones). I can understand that argument from a culture perspective but has there been any research done on economic benefit by country of origin or similar?

There's no argument there. Developed country immigrants are miles better than developing. That's not racist it's fact.

[Adamski]

Does that make a difference? I'm an immigrant and I still agree with some anti-immigration points.

It does if you're supporting someone who wants to ban all immigrants...

[Adamski]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58220b22e4b0e80b02ccfcee?

[Reg]

I also realize it's not that easy at all, but maybe if these leaders had to actually answer to their own people it would start political uprising in those very countries' and help kickstart the rebuilding of those countries themselves.
You really think America doing less for immigrants will achieve the above, bruhnaldo?

On point 3, what has made you think Trump will improve healthcare? (Genuine question, I'm pretty ignorant of the situation.)

[Lewis]

You seem to say stuff along those lines quite a lot (that the non-Europeans are the shit ones). I can understand that argument from a culture perspective but has there been any research done on economic benefit by country of origin or similar?

That University College London report (http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf) in 2014, which everybody (including the university (https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration)) loved because it said Europeans added more than they took out, also concluded that non-EEA bods cost us loads. Natives also cost us loads, but PISS OFF WE'RE FULL.

[bruhnaldo]

Just on point 1 Bruh, the US isn't anywhere near taking the lead on accepting refugees. In absolute numbers they aren't in the top 10, in % of population they aren't in the top 60 or something.
I'm not arguing here - you made your decision - just wanted to point this out.

Nah you're 100% right, I just feel like Hillary would open up that pipeline more.


There is also zero connection between refugees and the veterans situation, but whatever.

Funding. Everything costs money. I probably should've made them two separate points but my overlying point was the money spent could be better spent elsewhere.


ftfy.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion though I will say I've never once claimed to be an expert in politics or anything. I was just being open and honest about my selection. Thought it could drum up some conversation and I think it did.


Your veterans are on street corners because you live in the West's most callous society. If you want to abide by the sink-or-swim mentality that underpins the whole of American life, then unfortunately veterans are going to suffer the consequences of that. It's not a separate issue to, say, healthcare, it's all part of the same thing. Or at least that's my outsider's perspective.

Very valid, thank you for taking the time.


Taking care of people instead of letting them take care of themselves? That sounds like socialism.

Taking care of veterans who risk their lives for our country isn't exactly giving handouts to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who asks for one.

This country should do more for it's veterans before it takes care of another country's poor. Maybe that's misguided, maybe that's wrong. I don't know.

I'd rather open my opinion up for discussion, get opposing viewpoints, take in that information, and then form new, better informed opinions. I think that's the only way you really learn.

Thanks for those who took the time to discuss.

[bruhnaldo]

You really think America doing less for immigrants will achieve the above, bruhnaldo?

On point 3, what has made you think Trump will improve healthcare? (Genuine question, I'm pretty ignorant of the situation.)

1. I sincerely doubt it.

2. Hillary loves Obamacare and Trump wants to repeal it. Mind you, Trump hasn't shared any kind've plan in which to improve the healthcare system, but expanding/continuing Obamacare is def. not the answer.


Bruh what state are you in?

Florida :)

[Boydy]

That University College London report (http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf) in 2014, which everybody (including the university (https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration)) loved because it said Europeans added more than they took out, also concluded that non-EEA bods cost us loads. Natives also cost us loads, but PISS OFF WE'RE FULL.

Interesting. I didn't think it'd be that much different since within the EU anyone can come in whereas I assumed it'd be more difficult to get in from outside.

[phonics]

Trumps lawyers have tried to get the early vote of Nevada thrown out in a really embarrassing attempt. The judge is taking a giant shit on them.

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/breaking-live-news

[Pepe]

Disagreeing with something because the money would be better spent elsewhere is the shittest argument possible.

[Spoonsky]

I also realize it's not that easy at all, but maybe if these leaders had to actually answer to their own people it would start political uprising in those very countries' and help kickstart the rebuilding of those countries themselves.

Political uprising in those countries is why we have the refugees in the first place.

[Vim]

It does if you're supporting someone who wants to ban all immigrants...

Does he want to ban all immigrants?

[Vim]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58220b22e4b0e80b02ccfcee?

Linking Huff Post is basicallly like linking Breitbart. :D

[phonics]

This is SO good. It's like a real life episode of The Good Wife :drool:

[bruhnaldo]

Disagreeing with something because the money would be better spent elsewhere is the shittest argument possible.

I kinda feel like my argument was more it being the government's responsibility to govern and worry about it's own people first and foremost. thereby using available funds for the people already in this country, and then, if we can afford to, expand our humanitarian efforts. Again, maybe that's misguided or a bit fanatical for lack of a better word.

I concede you can't exactly say "ok, everyone else just hold on while we figure this other shit out". The world doesn't work that way.


Political uprising in those countries is why we have the refugees in the first place.

This is valid but it's not the only reason people emigrate to America. But you do have a very valid point.

[phonics]

I take it back. There's a serious lack of 'OBJECTION!' 'Sustained' but apart from that. It's great.

[phonics]

796076676480434176

Have you seen Twitter? :D

[Shindig]

Part of me wishes Hilary didn't rise to any of Trump's bullshit from the start. It's all gone a bit Attitude Era.

[Bartholomert]

Bruh was talking about legal immigration, though. He was talking about refugees from war-torn countries, virtually all of which are legal immigrants, surely. It's not like some Syrian is going to be hopping the fence.

To your second point, obviously you can argue it on cultural grounds, whether it's ok that people in Minnesota are getting scared of Somalis. That's got to be one of the biggest differences between Trump and Clinton supporters: whether (legal) immigration is inherently a good thing for the country or not.

Not all legal immigration is created equal. Why take shitty immigrants who hurt our economy and are culturally incompatible with our values? Fucking why?

[Pepe]

'Your values' are not a thing.

[Shindig]

Culturally incompatible? People move for financial reasons. Ask your Dad.

[Bartholomert]

'Your values' are not a thing.

They are outside of multicultural liberal cesspools.

[Bartholomert]

Culturally incompatible? People move for financial reasons. Ask your Dad.

My family moved for cultural / religious / ethnic reasons as much as financial considerations. Both of their families are very well off and many of their classmates were very successful.

[Adamski]

Who's family doesn't move for all of those reasons?

[SvN]

Ethnic reasons.

[7om]

:harold:

796081813944995841

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Just came across this-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZI1VwWFAI

[Spammer]

It's not going to happen but it'll be pretty lol if Trump wins.

We'd be talking Brexitx10 levels of shitstorm.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

It's not going to happen but it'll be pretty lol if Trump wins.

We'd be talking Brexitx10 levels of shitstorm.

My head says I shouldn't want him to win but part of me also just wants it for the comedy factor.

[Vim]

Clinton winning is just too boring.

[Magic]

I think I desperately want Trump to win now. Like, desperately. I actually think he may well be the lesser of two evils.

Also the fact these absolute cunt libtard European leaders hate him makes me even more :drool:

[Shindig]

You need boredom in politics. Seriously.

"Man, this Brexit sure is exciting." Is what the crowds say as they go to France on a marmite run.

[Mazuuurk]

My head says I shouldn't want him to win but part of me also just wants it for the comedy factor.

I get this. I'd definitely not want him to win, obviously, but I can't help but feel slightly intrigued by what the hell would actually happen (supposing he doesn't go off and start a war with someone, which I'm loath to believe he will anyway).

It's a bit like how you don't really feel you should at least make an effort to be smelling your own farts, but you kinda do anyway because it just feels weird if you fart and then not smell it, you're curious which smell it was that particular time, you know?

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Top analogy.

[leedsrevolution]

Top analogy.

He might become president on that though.

[Spikey M]

I genuinely do want Trump to win. Clinton would be boring as shit and fuck market stability. Bring the lulz.

[Bernanke]

https://s15.postimg.org/wcwiyb4vv/14947617_1774298049487810_3616260270387680940_n.jp g

[John]

For someone that thick I imagine it's a reflex to have a peek at what someone else is putting when asked any sort of question.

[Spammer]

Coral are doing a 25/1 offer on Clinton to win for new customers.

Maximum bet is a quid but you can get £25 out of it. You get it back as credit too, but you can easily turn that into proper cash by sticking half each on black and red on the roulette table.

Advertised here: http://www.oddschecker.com/

[Bartholomert]

:harold:

796081813944995841

That's not an official licensed hat.

[Smiffy]

.....

[Magic]

For someone that thick I imagine it's a reflex to have a peek at what someone else is putting when asked any sort of question.

Police Scotland clerical assistant living in a tiny flat in Drumchapel vs billionaire and next president of the most powerful country on earth?

[Smiffy]

.....

[Adamski]

https://s15.postimg.org/wcwiyb4vv/14947617_1774298049487810_3616260270387680940_n.jp g

That was my link on the last page you plum.

[Adamski]

Police Scotland clerical assistant living in a tiny flat in Drumchapel vs billionaire and next president of the most powerful country on earth?

Worse than that. Pollok mate.

[John]

Pollok > The Drum.

[Lewis]

I've repeatedly asked my friend to get me one of those red hats, but he keeps letting me down and claiming he's busy with his divorce. More like you don't want your pussy liberal mates seeing you with one, you fat mess.

[Bartholomert]

I've repeatedly asked my friend to get me one of those red hats, but he keeps letting me down and claiming he's busy with his divorce. More like you don't want your pussy liberal mates seeing you with one, you fat mess.

I wore my hat to class today because I'm no cuck.

[Smiffy]

.....

[Adamski]

If it's a landslide then around 4am real time.

[Magic]

This is ridiculous. First our own shitty elections are announced through the night and now Muricas? Bastards.

[Shindig]

5am, then. Then immediately disputed at 5.01.

[7om]

If Trump wins I'll buy the 'Make America Great Again' caps for myself and Pepe and I'll ship one to Lewis. Bants.