So things seem a bit mad in France

[Giggles]

Explosions, shootings in restaurants. 18 dead so far apparently.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34814203

[Lewis]

Gutted, Harold.

[Boydy]

Gutted, Harold.

He'll have an alias in a few minutes.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

He'll have an alias in a few minutes.

After finishing up his wank over all of this.

[Henry]

You beat me to it.

Deja vu here. What's best for breaking news these days?

[Waffdon]

jesus. 665286332349087744

[Giggles]

You beat me to it.

Deja vu here. What's best for breaking news these days?

BBC I'd imagine. Well, correct breaking news anyway.

[leedsrevolution]

Rumours of 60 hostages according to twitter.

[-james-]

jesus. 665286332349087744

"Wheeeeeey!"

[Lee]

At least 26 dead with hostages taken at a concert hall. Mental.

[leedsrevolution]

jesus. 665286332349087744

That's fucking awful.

[CJay]

How come the players don't react to the sound of a massive explosion?

[Boom-Boom]

Fucking hell.

[Davgooner]

Fucking cunts.

[Lewis]

How come the players don't react to the sound of a massive explosion?

The French instinctively passed it backwards.

[P_3]

This is scary shit.

[Giggles]

This lot just need to be wiped out, no more pussy footing around. The western world has disappeared up it's own PC arsehole that things like this still continue to happen.

[leedsrevolution]

Hostages at an Eagles of Death Metal gig.

[Henry]

This lot just need to be wiped out, no more pussy footing around. The western world has disappeared up it's own PC arsehole that things like this still continue to happen.

What lot?

[Waffdon]

Friday 13th.

[-james-]

60 being held hostage at an Eagles of Death Metal gig. :cab:

[Lee]

Sixty. Fucking hell.

[Pen]

How come the players don't react to the sound of a massive explosion?

They probably thought it was one of those bombs (smoke bombs maybe) that people sometimes manage to smuggle in to the stadium.

[Lewis]

Don't move, don't speak, even whisper
There's something happenin' but don't be scared
I'm too smooth, you never see me coming
I'm never in a hurry, I'm just movin' fast

I said, haow
Oh yes, you know I said, haow
I came to make a bang

Encore.

[Spoonsky]

Fuck, a friend of mine is visiting Paris at the moment. Don't think she's an Eagles of Death Metal fan but still I'm worried.

[Shindig]

hostages at an eagles of death metal gig.

i really want to make a joke but timing is not appropriate!

[P_3]

Up to 100 hostages now.

[Giggles]

Seems to be up to 30 dead now and the stadium looking like it's going to break into riot.

[Lee]

"We don't know who the perpetrators are."

We do though.

40 dead and 100 hostages now according to Sky. Jesus.

[Dquincy]

Fuck. 35 dead and 100 taken hostage.

[Giggles]

"We don't know who the perpetrators are."

We do though.

Henry doesn't seem to have twigged yet.

[Lewis]

How do a hundred people get taken hostage? Play the percentages and pile on.

[leedsrevolution]

How do a hundred people get taken hostage? Play the percentages and pile on.

101 hostage takers?

[Spoonsky]

How do a hundred people get taken hostage? Play the percentages and pile on.

By being French?

/Jimmy

[Byron]

Considering it's obvious who the perpetrators are, we really shouldn't be fucking about here. Boots on the ground, jets in the air above and let's grind these cunts into nothing more than a bloody smear.

[Giggles]

By being French?

/Jimmy

Jimmy has just opened the bottle of 1967 he's been saving for such an occasion.

[Dquincy]

Considering it's obvious who the perpetrators are, we really shouldn't be fucking about here. Boots on the ground, jets in the air above and let's grind these cunts into nothing more than a bloody smear.
Knee jerk reactions are never the best.

[Henry]

The perpetrators are no doubt some or other group of Islamic extremists. But we don't know which ones, so who are we proposing to wipe out again? It probably isn't ISIS, you know.

[Lewis]

Knee jerk reactions are never the best.

Unless you're an Uber driver. :drool:

[Byron]

Knee jerk reactions are never the best.

I've been saying this for a while, pretty much after every one of these attacks/executions that they've done.

[Shindig]

Why don't the Eagles of Death Metal satiate their anger with musi.... hang on...

Are the band part of the hostage number? Because then my feelings are torn.

[Giggles]

The perpetrators are no doubt some or other group of Islamic extremists. But we don't know which ones, so who are we proposing to wipe out again? It probably isn't ISIS, you know.

You're right. Better to chop down all the extremists just to be sure to get the right ones. Better to be proactive anyway.

[Henry]

You're right. Better to chop down all the extremists just to be sure to get the right ones. Better to be proactive anyway.

How do you propose to do that? You appear to want to do it with boots on the ground and jets in the air. Where?

[Shindig]

You can't really wallop extremism when they're part of a religion with a vast current and growing popularity. You need the faith to fall out of favour, much like Christianity's dilution over the last 200 years.

[Giggles]

How do you propose to do that? You appear to want to do it with boots on the ground and jets in the air. Where?

I said no such thing.

[Dquincy]

How do you propose to do that? You appear to want to do it with boots on the ground and jets in the air. Where?
In terrorville.

The lack of camera footage at the concert would suggest the worse.

[Henry]

I said no such thing.

Sorry, Byron did.

[Pepe]

Considering it's obvious who the perpetrators are, we really shouldn't be fucking about here. Boots on the ground, jets in the air above and let's grind these cunts into nothing more than a bloody smear.

What ground? Which cunts?

[Giggles]

Sky News saying more shootings at a shopping centre now.

[Boom-Boom]

Another shooting reported at a shopping mall.

[Magic]

Fucking unbelievable.

[Pepe]

There are currently 22 users browsing this thread. (22 members and 0 guests)
Pepe, Boom-Boom, Browning, CJay, cyril the white somalian, Davgooner, dino, Dquincy, eric, Foe, jkb, Jonas, Keep it Real, Lee, leedsrevolution, Lenny henry, Magic, Manc, randomlegend, Reg, Shindig

:wave:

[Boom-Boom]

Surprised they didn't wait and attack the metro after the football match. Would have been thousands of people around.

[Lewis]

Marine Le Pen might have won the election tonight.

[Davgooner]

Where are England playing France?

[Boom-Boom]

Where are England playing France?

Wembley.

[Lewis]

Where are England playing France?

Crown Flatt in Dewsbury. :serious:

[Lenny henry]

The home of football, dont worry

[Giggles]

Reported shootings at the Louvre now.

[niko_cee]

Surprised they didn't wait and attack the metro after the football match. Would have been thousands of people around.

This is what I thought. I've been to the State de France. There are (obviously) fucking millions of people about before and after whatever is happening, you'd bomb then, surely?

As for the sky news anchor thinking the shopping centre might be shut. How thick does he think this apparent terrorist is? 11am mo, AM!

I have long thought the best way to waste a load of people, if that is your want, would just be to pitch up with an automatic weapon and go mad. Bombs, particularly of the suicide variety seem like so much more hassle.

[Henry]

I pre-emptively banned Harold's racist alias, in an act of vengeance on behalf of the French.

[Magic]

'Moderate' Islam = extremist.

[Magic]

This is what I thought. I've been to the State de France. There are (obviously) fucking millions of people about before and after whatever is happening, you'd bomb then, surely?

As for the sky news anchor thinking the shopping centre might be shut. How thick does he think this apparent terrorist is? 11am mo, AM!

I have long thought the best way to waste a load of people, if that is your want, would just be to pitch up with an automatic weapon and go mad. Bombs, particularly of the suicide variety seem like so much more hassle.

It's actually far more difficult. Watch LL and see bumbling idiots in Syria etc. Unless you're professionally trained pulling a GTA is difficult. A lot can go wrong.

[niko_cee]

I'm not saying I could do it, but I'd imagine your average American pre-teen could. It can't be that hard.

[Giggles]

The report is two gunmen at the concert and they're shooting the 100 hostages one by one. Surely, as has been mentioned, after the first few you just realise what's happening and bull rush the cunts?

[niko_cee]

The report is two gunmen at the concert and they're shooting the 100 hostages one by one. Surely, as has been mentioned, after the first few you just realise what's happening and bull rush the cunts?

The crowd are probably too busy recording it on their phones to upload.

Do the frogs have an SAS?

[Boom-Boom]

The report is two gunmen at the concert and they're shooting the 100 hostages one by one. Surely, as has been mentioned, after the first few you just realise what's happening and bull rush the cunts?

I bet there's a lot of false rumours going around at the moment.

I imagine if the police were hearing gun shots they'd be storming the place immediately.

[Shindig]

I pre-emptively banned Harold's racist alias, in an act of vengeance on behalf of the French.

Revenge isn't a good motive for anything, Henry. Don't treat Harold like a white whale.

[Giggles]

I bet there's a lot of false rumours going around at the moment.

I imagine if the police were hearing gun shots they'd be storming the place immediately.

Imagine getting those two dragged out into the street alive :drool:

[Dquincy]

The report is two gunmen at the concert and they're shooting the 100 hostages one by one. Surely, as has been mentioned, after the first few you just realise what's happening and bull rush the cunts?

Yeah, hence why I'd take that rumour with a pinch of salt.

What someone said about why nit attack the stade de France when people leaving the match. Good point, are these terrorists idiots or just lack of research?

[-james-]

Closed borders. :|

[Henry]

Revenge isn't a good motive for anything, Henry. Don't treat Harold like a white whale.

He tasks me.

[Magic]

Closed borders. :|

Lucky France.

*harold*

[-james-]

More shootings apparently. This is fucking insane.

[Davgooner]

I'd love to know what's going on over here at the moment. You'd imagine they'll want eyes on every single notable as soon as possible.

[Lewis]

The BBC are getting shit on Twitter for not booting Children in Need for rolling news, but what are we fighting for if not the proliferation of mawkish celebrity-driven crap?

[Magic]

It was only a matter of time, the train one for example. This is going to become more and more common.

[P_3]

I'm not really understanding the point of them taking hostages. What would the negotiations involve? If it is IS, wouldn't they be quite happy to just off the lot of them and then blow themselves up?

[Giggles]

The BBC are getting shit on Twitter for not booting Children in Need for rolling news, but what are we fighting for if not the proliferation of mawkish celebrity-driven crap?

What do people expect? They've a bloody news channel for all that these days.

[Magic]

I'm going to bed. I absolutely dread the final outcome of this. See you chaps tomorrow.

[Kikó]

Precursor for war isn't it.

[Davgooner]

Quite a few yanks in that restaurant according to Fox.

[randomlegend]

https://twitter.com/AnneBayefsky/status/665301921914195972?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Shit that's horrible.

[Boom-Boom]

https://twitter.com/AnneBayefsky/status/665301921914195972?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Shit that's horrible.

I imagine (and hope) that's a false rumour flying around. The police would be straight in there.

You'd imagine there's live CCTV available to the police.

[Davgooner]

Seems now that the suicide bomber got right to one of the entrance gates of the stadium before he totaled himself.

:sick:

[Giggles]

Explosions at concert hall now and gunfire being heard according to Sky News.

[Boom-Boom]

Sounds likes it's going off at the concert. Crazy to think what those hostages must be going through right now.

[Spoonsky]

Marine Le Pen might have won the election tonight.

You are right.

This is Charlie Hebdo times ten. Fucking sickening.

[Kikó]

That video :o Pure chaos at the moment.

[Lee]

Explosions at concert hall now and gunfire being heard according to Sky News.

Hopefully the French going in rather than the terrorists offing everybody.

[Spoonsky]

This is the future. The trends only point to this happening more and more in the next years.

The Euros are probably fucked.

[Kikó]

Calm down spoon.

France24 says the police are storming the batalan.

[Spoonsky]

There's also been a 7.0 earthquake in Japan and 43 killed in bombings in Beirut. Looks like the rapture was three years late.

[Giggles]

The two terrorists killed in the concert venue. No mention of how many people they killed first though.

[Waffdon]

I reckon I'm in one of the safest places in the world, tbh

[Luca]

Mum and aunts are there. Hiding in a hotel as they were out to dinner.

I feel sick.

[Giggles]

Explosives had already been used on hostages in the concert venue 'in a confined space' according to reports.
Police are describing the scene as carnage.

[Spoonsky]

I reckon the terrorists are as likely to have come from the Banlieus as from Syria.

[Adam]

Islam the religion of peace strikes again.

[Lewis]

That major Calais migrant/refugee camp is on fire as well.

[Waffdon]

100 dead in the Bataclan apparently.

[Lewis]

Hundred dead at the concert. Gear up, France.

[Giggles]

I presume that'll be deleted too. But say what you like, our Hazza is a tryer.

[P_3]

100 dead is absolutely horrifying.

[Giggles]

That major Calais migrant/refugee camp is on fire as well.

Not sure if that's real or not. I presume not though as there hasn't been a word on the news about it.

665320021942472704

[Lewis]

I would normally moan about it, but there is something kind of lol about Harold having his posts deleted.

[Giggles]

I would normally moan about it, but there is something kind of lol about Harold having his posts deleted.

Even Spoons post where he quoted him too. Quite blanket.

[Vim]

I had read that the Calais fire thing is not real. BBC just mentioned it now for the first time, but said it was "reports" from social media.

[Spoonsky]

Fuck you Henry.

100 is a bloody lot. Hard to imagine a worse death than that, waiting in fear while they shoot people one-by-one only to get blown up at the last. This seems pretty unprecedented in its scope and coordination, doesn't it? Usually the big death tolls come from one-off explosions or plane hijackings.

[7om]

118 dead in that club alone. Dread to think what number we're going to wake up to in the morning.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

140 being mentioned now.

This is fucking mental but at the same time I'm surprised so few (comparatively) people have been killed in other recent attacks.

[Spoonsky]

On the other hand, my friend is still alive.

[CJay]

My cousin is in Paris with a group at the minute. Thankfully they made it back to their hotel safely.

The death toll from that concert is sickening.

[Luca]

Someone from the hotel that my mum/aunts/friends were hiding in called his relative, who came (presumably) with a van and brought them all back to their apartment.

They're now going to get absolutely wasted and try to sleep.

[Manc]

Shocking to the system.

[Lewis]

I think the manner of these things stick rather than the actual kill count. Maybe I'm too historically-minded (lol) and see things being blown up as more normal (even acceptable) than labour-intensive shooting galleries. Similarly, numbers are pretty hard to grasp once they get past a couple and become impersonal. I always think the leap from five dead to thirty dead is a lot more 'shocking' than thirty to a hundred and thirty, at which point it is just more of a massacre rather than a mere incident.

[Spoonsky]

The coordination also makes it seem a lot worse to me. One nutter, or group of such, is always at some level easier to understand than something like this. This just seems like warfare.

[P_3]

I'm more worried that what started as groups of men in cars and whatnot, ended in just two dead terrorists. Oh, plus the two suicides.

[ItalAussie]

I think the manner of these things stick rather than the actual kill count. Maybe I'm too historically-minded (lol) and see things being blown up as more normal (even acceptable) than labour-intensive shooting galleries. Similarly, numbers are pretty hard to grasp once they get past a couple and become impersonal. I always think the leap from five dead to thirty dead is a lot more 'shocking' than thirty to a hundred and thirty, at which point it is just more of a massacre rather than a mere incident.
I think we notice the number of digits in a death count, and each extra digit is almost the "same" degree of shockingness. Human brains tend to process numbers logarithmically - it's the only way we can deal with very large numbers.

Makes you wonder if we'd have been a more peaceful society in base 2 rather than base 10.

[ItalAussie]

I'm a little bit staggered that they let the football match play out, rather than calling it off. Although on thinking about it after the fact, it may be that they didn't fancy 60,000 people out on the streets in a panic straight away.

[Lewis]

I think we notice the number of digits in a death count, and each extra digit is almost the "same" degree of shockingness. Human brains tend to process numbers logarithmically - it's the only way we can deal with very large numbers.

Makes you wonder if we'd have been a more peaceful society in base 2 rather than base 10.

That would make sense. Is there any reason to believe that at a certain point it just becomes meaningless?

[ItalAussie]

That would make sense. Is there any reason to believe that at a certain point it just becomes meaningless?I don't know, to be honest. I could make an argument that there would be a drop-off after six or seven people, and that most people would stop being "more" shocked after six or seven digits of death count (above which it just gets bracketed into "unthinkingly horrifying"). This would be based on the fact that humans can only process individual numbers instantaneously up to six or seven (everything above that kind of gets sorted as "many; 10ish", or "many; 100ish", etc.).

That's all spit-balling based on very loose hypothesis though, so don't read too much into that. But the fact that we process large numbers logarithmically is solidly established.

[randomlegend]

I think once it reaches a number where people become unable to picture that many people or relate it to something, then it pretty much becomes meaningless.

Up to 10s of thousands people can relate it to a football stadium or whatever. Once you start getting into 100s of thousands or millions it becomes very difficult to do that and people can't really comprehend it.

We had to do some stuff on communicating risk to patients and this was how it came across, at least.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I saw this on the TV over someone's shoulder in a pub (140 dead by this point) and my first reaction was oh no, this one's the end. People simply aren't going to tolerate any form of Islamism anymore and if they want to, unfortunately they'll have to be made not to.

[Bernanke]

So, just woke up. This is a bit mental isn't it?

I always wondered why no one had been successful in Europe with Mumbai-style attacks. Well, now they have.

[elth]

People have been "tolerating" violent Islamism?

[John Arne]

Yeah, just woke up... This is mental.

[Boydy]

Spent most of the night in work just watching BBC news in disbelief and trying to ignore customers. This is mental.

Was it the Bataclan where 100+ ended up dead? What happened there? Did they blow it up when the police/army/whoever started coming in?

[Boydy]

Feels a bit like this sums it all up as well:

665344309202415616

Why do we (the west) keep cosying up to the biggest promoters of this shite?

[Bernanke]

Spent most of the night in work just watching BBC news in disbelief and trying to ignore customers. This is mental.

Was it the Bataclan where 100+ ended up dead? What happened there? Did they blow it up when the police/army/whoever started coming in?

Concert hall filled with 1000-1500 people. They come in at the back of the crowd and just open fire. Place was packed so people weren't realizing what was happening, and even when they did, escape routes weren't exactly easily accessible.

Oh, and they blew themselves up when police came in.

[Boydy]

Concert hall filled with 1000-1500 people. They come in at the back of the crowd and just open fire. Place was packed so people weren't realizing what was happening, and even when they did, escape routes weren't exactly easily accessible.

Oh, and they blew themselves up when police came in.

Was that the same place they were killing people one by one as well?

[Bernanke]

Was that the same place they were killing people one by one as well?

Yeah, Bataclan.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5030/5588493926_75a403fc6f_b.jpg

[Shindig]

What do people expect? They've a bloody news channel for all that these days.

And last time they cut into BBC1's feed was probably Stockwell or Michael Jackson's death. Y'know, the stuff that matters to more or is closer to home. Next time they do it will be for the Queen's death.

[Magic]

I'm going to bed. I absolutely dread the final outcome of this. See you chaps tomorrow.

Wow. I think as Spoon said if it turns out they are home grown which is increasingly likely...

[Lee]

Why always France? I know there's a large muslim population and there's a lot of history that goes with that but you could make the same argument about the UK. Is our security just better? I mean the French are no mugs, are they?

[John Arne]

Why always France? I know there's a large muslim population and there's a lot of history that goes with that but you could make the same argument about the UK. Is our security just better? I men the French are no mugs, are they?

Things such as banning face covering (for example, burqa's) probably plays a part.

[Spoonsky]

The French Muslims tend to come from the Maghreb countries with a greater tendency toward Islamist violence. Bangladeshis don't have quite the same history, and even Pakistanis don't seem as bad.

There's also the fact that the Parisian Banlieus are the perfect melding pot for terrorists. Low-income Muslim families in public housing, segregated from central Paris and surrounded by others who are similar; the alienation is in-built. It's where the Charlie Hebdo brothers were radicalized and I'd place money on at least some of these guys coming from the suburbs as well.

[Lee]

The French Muslims tend to come from the Maghreb countries with a greater tendency toward Islamist violence. Bangladeshis don't have quite the same history, and even Pakistanis don't seem as bad.

There's also the fact that the Parisian Banlieus are the perfect melding pot for terrorists. Low-income Muslim families in public housing, segregated from central Paris and surrounded by others who are similar; the alienation is in-built. It's where the Charlie Hebdo brothers were radicalized and I'd place money on at least some of these guys coming from the suburbs as well.

Yeah, sorry, all that is what I meant by 'history'. But there's segregation here and the Pakistanis are pretty shit. I just wondered of there's something about Paris in particilar which makes it an easy target.

[niko_cee]

Having (open) land borders probably makes it lot easier to get hold of things like automatic weapons.

[Henry]

Fuck you Henry.

Sorry, what?

But yeah, good call on Saudi Arabia.

[Lee]

You would think it won't be that long until somebody decides it's ground war time in Syria. They've just blown a Russian plane up and now this. The Russians in particular, right or wrong, aren't likely to fuck about.

[Giggles]

Why always France? I know there's a large muslim population and there's a lot of history that goes with that but you could make the same argument about the UK. Is our security just better? I mean the French are no mugs, are they?

Britain panders to them a bit more by trying to be ridiculously PC about most of their crap.

[Henry]

You would think it won't be that long until somebody decides it's ground war time in Syria. They've just blown a Russian plane up and now this. The Russians in particular, right or wrong, aren't likely to fuck about.

What would the war aim be? As unpalatable as it is, the only realistic one is probably to back Assad (presumably with concessions from him) which is what the Russians are doing.

[Lee]

What would the war aim be? As unpalatable as it is, the only realistic one is probably to back Assad (presumably with concessions from him) which is what the Russians are doing.

What is it now? Everybody knows that chucking a few bombs on Raqqa won't end IS. A properly co-ordinated ground war (with a real plan for what happens afterwards) would work far better and I'd be amazed if there aren't contingency plans for that eventuality already. I think you are correct in that to make it as clean and quick as possible it would have to happen alongside Assad. I dunno, it's a shit option but then they all seem a bit shit at the minute.

[Henry]

What is it now?

Fuck knows. I don't think TPTB give much of a shit about ISIS, despite the rhetoric.

[elth]

You would think it won't be that long until somebody decides it's ground war time in Syria. They've just blown a Russian plane up and now this. The Russians in particular, right or wrong, aren't likely to fuck about.

The Russians are already on the ground in Syria.

As for "the West" not knowing that Saudi Arabia is the source of all the problems - firstly, that's horrendously naive (everyone and their dog loves a good meddle in the ME) and secondly, they know perfectly well where all of the trouble comes from. They just think putting up with Saudi Arabia's support for nutjobbery is worth the cost. Who else can "the West" side with in the Middle East? Iraq's a failed state, Iran's spent 30 years preaching Death to America, Syria is Israel's main enemy, Jordan's got all the political clout of Belgium and the Gulf States are minnows. They prop up Saudi Arabia because there's nobody else.

[Lee]

Fuck knows. I don't think TPTB give much of a shit about ISIS, despite the rhetoric.

I agree with that; if they did they'd already have gone in. Much better a couple of hundred dead Parisians now and then than for any of OUR BOYS to be captured and beheaded on a live stream with the government being blamed.

[Lee]

The Russians are already on the ground in Syria.

And the Americans and Brits were on the ground long before any bombing. I meant a ground invasion with proper numbers.

Who is saying the West doesn't know the part the Saudis play in all this? Have I missed a post?

[Henry]

You forget - there already was a "ground invasion with proper numbers". It was called the Iraq war, and when it started there was no such thing as ISIS.
Why do you think that a repetition is going to improve anything?

[Lee]

You forget - there already was a "ground invasion with proper numbers". It was called the Iraq war, and when it started there was no such thing as ISIS.
Why do you think that a repetition is going to improve anything?

I don't forget and I understand the genesis of IS. I wasn't talking about a repeat performance which is why I wrote of a proper post-war plan. It can be done; the Americans managed it in Japan. Unfortunately I doubt any major power would be willing to put the effort into the infrastructural and social support which would be necessary.

All options are shit; keep bombing with no impact and innocents dead, support Assad which might kill IS and will result in different innocents dead, or invade without a plan for afterwards which will leave us back where we are now within the decade. It would be nice to think the different sides will just talk to one another (they will eventually, it always ends that way) but we are a million miles away from that scenario now.

[John Arne]

I really hope that cities like Paris and London don't turn into the horrid armed security cities such a Beijing.

[Magic]

My Facebook is a mixture of no more walking on eggshells and nothing to do with Islam. Quite amusing.

[Dquincy]

What would the scenario be if we just left them to it in the middle east and pulled out completely? (Apart from civil war and genocide within those respective countries).

i.e. Is it our responsibility to get involved? Is there a threat to our own national security if we just left them to it?

[Giggles]

What would the scenario be if we just left them to it in the middle east and pulled out completely? (Apart from civil war and genocide within those respective countries).

i.e. Is it our responsibility to get involved? Is there a threat to our own national security if we just left them to it?

They want us wiped out totally don't they? So by leaving them to it you only give them the chance to get stronger quicker.

[Henry]

What would the scenario be if we just left them to it in the middle east and pulled out completely? (Apart from civil war and genocide within those respective countries).

i.e. Is it our responsibility to get involved? Is there a threat to our own national security if we just left them to it?

Involvement in the middle east isn't about security in the first place. It's about domination, and control of oil resources, something that is contrary to security.

[Henry]

They want us wiped out totally don't they?

ISIS? No, they want their caliphate.That doesn't necessitate "wiping out" Europe.

[Jimmy Floyd]

ISIS aren't even at hand, it's homegrown twats partially inspired by them.

The reason it's worse in France is that they have always treated their immigrants, and before that colonial subjects, like absolute shit.

[Dquincy]

They want us wiped out totally don't they? So by leaving them to it you only give them the chance to get stronger quicker.
If that is the case, then you can understand it. Forgive my ignorance, but I genuinely don't know if it is the case. As selfish as it might sound, if they kept themselves to themselves then I'd be inclined to leave them to it. Burying head in the sand maybe.

[Dquincy]

Involvement in the middle east isn't about security in the first place. It's about domination, and control of oil resources, something that is contrary to security.
Fair point. Look at Tony Blair for example.

It's all a big shame isn't it

[Giggles]

Just hearing now that London Gatwick has been evacuated now. Something to do with a grenade. Unsure if related.

665474585958211584

[Giggles]

Just a fella with a gun in his bag, so unrelated.

[Weaver]

665484270153113600

ISIS have claimed responsibility.

[Henry]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTv5lm3WIAATsC1.png

That got posted from an ISIS affiliate about three hours before the attack on Paris.

Could be bullshit, but still.

[John Arne]

Even on a day like this, I see Kay Burley's face and I still want to punch the fucking odious bitch.

[Andy]

They really are horrid cunts. Despicable.

[Lewis]

Alf Garnett has died as well. Fucking hell the foreigners have got the momentum here.

[Bernanke]

In a statement, released in French and Arabic, the Islamic State said that “soldiers of Caliphate" targeted the capital of abomination and perversion.” Soldiers of Caliphate is another word for ISIS militants.

"Eight brothers carrying explosive belts and guns targeted areas in the heart of the French capital that were specifically chosen in advance: the Stade de France during a match against Germany which that imbecile Francois Hollande was attending; the Bataclan where hundreds of idolaters were together in a party of perversity as well as other targets in the 10th, 11th and 18th arrondissement."

lol fuck off

[Weaver]

In a telegram to French President Francois Hollande, Russian President Vladimir Putin said the attacks were "the latest testimonial to the barbaric essence of terrorism which throws down a challenge to human civilization".

"It's obvious that an effective fight against this evil demands a real unity of the forces of the international community. I would like to confirm the readiness of Russia for the closest cooperation with our French partners in investigating the crime that took place in Paris.

"In this difficult time for France, I ask you to pass along words of sincere sympathy and support to the relatives and those near to those who were killed and wishes for a fast recovery to all those who were hurt at the hands of extremists."

A telegram? As if.

[Henry]

The surveillance state remarkable in its ineffectiveness here, it must be said.

[Lewis]

You would think it won't be that long until somebody decides it's ground war time in Syria. They've just blown a Russian plane up and now this. The Russians in particular, right or wrong, aren't likely to fuck about.

Uncle Sam invoked Article 5 of NATO after 11/9, but they could have done it without our moral support, so it would be interesting to see what happens if somebody else does so (of if they're even allowed to do so).

[Jimmy Floyd]

The surveillance state remarkable in its ineffectiveness here, it must be said.

They need a better one, like we have over here.

[Bernanke]

The surveillance state remarkable in its ineffectiveness here, it must be said.

Not that I'm a big fan of it, but a single attack isn't really indicative of its failure. The fact that it took until now for a Mumbai-style attack to happen is incredible tbh.

"You have to be lucky everytime; we only have to be lucky once."

[Henry]

Not that I'm a big fan of it, but a single attack isn't really indicative of its failure. The fact that it took until now for a Mumbai-style attack to happen is incredible tbh.

"You have to be lucky everytime; we only have to be lucky once."

How many similar attacks have been prevented?

[Jimmy Floyd]

How many similar attacks have been prevented?

A lot.

[Bernanke]

How many similar attacks have been prevented?

http://www.france24.com/en/20150116-belgium-terror-cell-was-verge-significant-attack-syria

Countless I'd say.

[Henry]

http://www.france24.com/en/20150116-belgium-terror-cell-was-verge-significant-attack-syria

Countless I'd say.

Had that got anything to do with the NSA/GCHQ style spying on everyone? I have never heard of a single instance where it did.

[Bernanke]

Had that got anything to do with the NSA/GCHQ style spying on everyone? I have never heard of a single instance where it did.

Why would you?

[Henry]

Why would you?

Because they would tell you, to justify the programs.

In fact, they have tried to claim it, but there have been analyses (http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/youll-never-guess-how-many-terrorist-plots-the-nsas-domestic-spy-program-has-foiled) done.

Taking the NSA:


The nonprofit think tank New America Foundation published a report today after investigating the 227 Al Qaeda-affiliated people or groups that have been charged for committing an act of terrorism in the US since 9/11. It found just 17 of the cases were credited to NSA surveillance, and just one conviction came out of the government's extra-controversial practice of spying on its own citizens. And that charge, against San Diego cab driver Basaaly *Moalin, was for sending money to a terrorist group in Somalia. There was no threat of an actual attack.

[Bernanke]

Fair enough.

[simon]

There's only so much that can be taken, isn't there. I'm as anti-war as anybody, but when the situation deteriorates to this state it's about the only option that is left. This kind of stuff can't keep happening.

[Lee]

Cameron saying there are some dead Brits, which I don't suppose is a surprise.

A Syrian passport has been found on one of the murderers, apparently.

[phonics]

Syrian passports are ten a penny apparently.

Here's one for the Dutch Prime Minister

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTxYJwKW4AAkKwd.jpg:large

[Yevrah]

What.in.the.fuck?

I got battered last night (this all passed me by) and have just woke up to see what looked like some sort of horrible Brass Eye skit

[Magic]

Lol at a passport being found. As if you'd carry legitimate identification.

[Yevrah]

There's only so much that can be taken, isn't there. I'm as anti-war as anybody, but when the situation deteriorates to this state it's about the only option that is left. This kind of stuff can't keep happening.

Just catching up and it's very very worrying, on so many levels.

[Yevrah]

Douglas Murray had better get the pro plus ready.

[Henry]

Yevrage? We haven't had that on the new board yet.

[Lee]

What always surprises me with these things (although it hasn't happened this time, yet) is the authorities come out and tell us that they have "been watching xxxxx for some time for known links to *insert muslim mentalist*". Now I'm not going to propose islamic internment camps or anything, but if security services are watching lots of people, presumably these people are dabbling in a bit of terrorism-related crime. Why can't we just pull them in?

[Yevrah]

Yevrage? We haven't had that on the new board yet.

I don't know what to say really....., ok, I do.

There's little point wiping ISIS out because some other band of religious mentalists will fill the vacuum - the reality here is that (whatever 'we've' done to contribute towards it) there are a lot of Muslims who want to take us down.
Europe is now full of them.
Despite increased surveillance, it's not working and the inevitable increase after this won't either
The tinderbox is well and truly primed
It wouldn't take a huge leap of the imagination to envisage a time where attacks are commonplace and internment is the 'solution'.

What a lovely Europe that will be to live in.

[Yevrah]

What always surprises me with these things (although it hasn't happened this time, yet) is the authorities come out and tell us that they have "been watching xxxxx for some time for known links to *insert muslim mentalist*". Now I'm not going to propose islamic internment camps or anything, but if security services are watching lots of people, presumanly these people are dabbling in a bit of terrorism-related crime. Why can't we just pull them in?

Presumably because they're after a larger target, or there simply isn't enough evidence to pull someone.

If this keeps up, internment will happen - there's no doubt about that.

[Bob Sacamano]

How long until The Siege becomes reality? How were Bruce Willis and Denzel Washington in such a shitty film :face:

[niko_cee]

Wash your mouth out. That film was quality.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

What always surprises me with these things (although it hasn't happened this time, yet) is the authorities come out and tell us that they have "been watching xxxxx for some time for known links to *insert muslim mentalist*". Now I'm not going to propose islamic internment camps or anything, but if security services are watching lots of people, presumanly these people are dabbling in a bit of terrorism-related crime. Why can't we just pull them in?

I would imagine along the lines of not enough concrete evidence to get a conviction for anything or waiting to see where/who else they can be led to. In my completely unsubstantiated opinion.

[Yevrah]

Oh and this has all but sealed a 'no vote' in the referendum.

Closing the stable door after the horse and all that, but still.

[Yevrah]

I would imagine along the lines of not enough concrete evidence to get a conviction for anything or waiting to see where/who else they can be led to. In my completely unsubstantiated opinion.

Yeah, it'll be that. We can't have it both ways.

Either you want a free society or you don't - I suspect a shift a little bit more to the latter will occur after this.

[Kikó]

I'm a bit stumped on what the solution could be beyond withdrawing support and trade with Saudi Arabia. You can't go to war with an emotion (I.e. terror) so there has to be some new way of thinking.

[Yevrah]

"We don't know who the perpetrators are."

We do though.

They weren't treading that line, were they? :D

Did "we must not jump to conclusions" come out too?

[Yevrah]

I'm a bit stumped on what the solution could be beyond withdrawing support and trade with Saudi Arabia. You can't go to war with an emotion (I.e. terror) so there has to be some new way of thinking.

You lock people up for being Muslim and having any sort of link to terrorism, even if that link is the most tenuous one possible, I'd imagine.

[Yevrah]

How do a hundred people get taken hostage? Play the percentages and pile on.

It's game theory, isn't it? Obviously 101 people can bum rush 5 with guns, but the ones at the front of those 101 know they're probably going to die, so don't.

[Yevrah]

The perpetrators are no doubt some or other group of Islamic extremists. But we don't know which ones, so who are we proposing to wipe out again? It probably isn't ISIS, you know.

This is so very true. ISIS are just the latest prominent face of these nutters, but, let's face it, they (and their sympathisers) are everywhere.

Sorry for the endless quotes, but fuck it, I'm not stopping and nor I'm I getting into a multiquote shit off.

[phonics]

I don't watch that sort of shit normally but I saw a video of the concert place emptying out as shots go off in the background. People dragging bodies along the street, hanging from windows trying to get out.

Fucking terrifying.

[Yevrah]

I don't watch that sort of shit normally but I saw a video of the concert place emptying out as shots go off in the background. People dragging bodies along the street, hanging from windows trying to get out.

Fucking terrifying.

Yep, just saw that, absolutely mortifying.

Jim's end game comment is probably right. What a bag of shit it's going to be.

[Disco]

I'm a bit stumped on what the solution could be beyond withdrawing support and trade with Saudi Arabia. You can't go to war with an emotion (I.e. terror) so there has to be some new way of thinking.

It comes down to do you (as in the people in charge of 'The West') think that whatever you get, either personally or nationally, from close ties with Saudi Arabia is worth the price we seem to be paying. Given that Sept 11th didn't change a lot in that regard I think we can guess the answer, 70ish years of interventionist policies in regard to the middle east is clearly good for someone.

[Henry]

You lock people up for being Muslim and having any sort of link to terrorism, even if that link is the most tenuous one possible, I'd imagine.

Whoever starts this sort of shit will be responsible for multiplying the amount of radicalised Muslims greatly, and will thus become the victim of more attacks.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Interesting article from a decade ago-

http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-future-of-terrorism-what-al-qaida-really-wants-a-369448.html

[Yevrah]

Whoever starts this sort of shit will be responsible for multiplying the amount of radicalised Muslims greatly, and will thus become the victim of more attacks.

I'm not saying it should happen, but I'm pretty sure it will if this keeps up. When you've got (liberal gents like) Lee asking why these people weren't just pulled in, you know there's not a huge sea change needed before that happens.

[Davgooner]

That's exactly what these cunts want. Best recruitment tool going.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Globalisation is to blame. Islam isn't designed to function alongside other things. It only works if it's the only show in town.

[Kikó]

We lock people up for being Muslim and links to terror surely radicalises more? Where does the line stop? Qur'an quotes? Going to an anti government rally?

What was gained from Guantanamo? Where do you put all of these people?

[Yevrah]

That's exactly what these cunts want. Best recruitment tool going.

They probably do, but it all comes down to the need to do something. There's only so long governments can stand by and watch their civilians getting slaughtered at the theatre before they need to be seen to be doing something.

An attack on ISIS on their own soil (however the fuck that works :cab:) will buy a bit of time, but it's not going to stop the attacks happening (it'll probably exacerbate them) and I can't see any other end game than the one above if they do. If you've another view of what may happen, do share.

Bleating on about tolerance and multiculturalism sure as shit isn't doing anything - that ship sailed years ago. In fact, and as unpalatable as it may be, the most effective thing so far (if the number of foiled attempts in the UK is to be believed) is the increased surveillance powers given to the security services.

I just can't see how this ends well.

[Kikó]

Theresa May must be buzzing at that post Harvey. Trusting the government with even more powers is terrifying in my eyes.

[Yevrah]

We lock people up for being Muslim and links to terror surely radicalises more? Where does the line stop? Qur'an quotes? Going to an anti government rally?

What was gained from Guantanamo? Where do you put all of these people?

Yeah, it's rubbish, I agree, but it's back to be seen to be doing something.

This is probably about right.


Globalisation is to blame. Islam isn't designed to function alongside other things. It only works if it's the only show in town.

But for years no one's wanted to admit it.

[Giggles]

We lock people up for being Muslim and links to terror surely radicalises more? Where does the line stop? Qur'an quotes? Going to an anti government rally?

What was gained from Guantanamo? Where do you put all of these people?

At this stage, in a hole.

[Magic]

Moderate Muslims already hold pretty abhorrent views so it would be extremely easy to radicalise the absolute majority by isolating them further.

Unfortunately there will be no age of enlightenment with Islam.

[phonics]

'We must be seen to be doing something' is the most pathetic thing I've heard.

[Yevrah]

Theresa May must be buzzing at that post Harvey. Trusting the government with even more powers is terrifying in my eyes.

Are you not reading what I'm laying down?

I don't trust the government any more than I trust Keith Chegwin and I'm not saying we should be doing these things, but a lot of attacks have been foiled through increased surveillance - you can still have the argument against doing that whilst admitting so.

[Kikó]

At this stage, in a hole.

So the death of ~140 ( plus the other things) opens the door to genocide? Rational thought man.

[Yevrah]

'We must be seen to be doing something' is the most pathetic thing I've heard.

Then you don't understand the context of it.

It's a product of the electoral cycle in the UK. Politicians are always bending over to take a populist shafting if it will win them votes, whether that's the right thing to do or not.

[Kikó]

Are you not reading what I'm laying down?

I don't trust the government any more than I trust Keith Chegwin and I'm not saying we should be doing these things, but a lot of attacks have been foiled through increased surveillance - you can still have the argument against doing that whilst admitting so.

I've missed the post on how many attacks have been foiled. For the lazy, how many is a lot?

[Davgooner]

You need to go after those who committed the acts, but it needs to be primarily with a view to bringing them to justice, and it need to be targeted so that you don't end up creating 1000 more suicide bombers by smashing the fuck out of whole cities and regions in Iraq/Syria/genericshithole.

I think what we'll probably see is an increase in special forces operations to knock out certain individuals and groups. What would be interesting is whether they'd be willing to put in larger forces if certain opportunities presented themselves.

[Henry]

"Something" is not a good idea.

And there are lots of more sensible "somethings" than that. Stop cosying up to the Saudis. Get a proper deal done with Iran. Try to build an actual settlement between Israel and Palestine instead of blocking one.

These are obvious things that would increase security. They aren't happening because security is not the aim of middle-eastern policy. People need to stop trying to see recent western actions through that lens.

[Henry]

I've missed the post on how many attacks have been foiled. For the lazy, how many is a lot?

None have been foiled. Or we're supposed to take it on faith that they have, but aren't telling us.

[Yevrah]

I've missed the post on how many attacks have been foiled. For the lazy, how many is a lot?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33417300

50 seems a lot to me. Again, if it's to be believed.

IIRC Phonics posted something a while back that had more detail and seemed more legitimate. It stands to reason if you're spying on people you'll catch some wrong-uns plotting things. Which isn't to say that that's a worthwhile benefit to losing your civil liberties, but it is a reality.

[Yevrah]

"Something" is not a good idea.

And there are lots of more sensible "somethings" than that. Stop cosying up to the Saudis. Get a proper deal done with Iran. Try to build an actual settlement between Israel and Palestine instead of blocking one.

These are obvious things that would increase security. They aren't happening because security is not the aim of middle-eastern policy. People need to stop trying to see recent western actions through that lens.

It's gone beyond just middle-eastern policy, these nutters are living among us.

[Henry]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33417300

50 seems a lot to me. Again, if it's to be believed.

IIRC Phonics posted something a while back that had more detail and seemed more legitimate. It stands to reason if you're spying on people you'll catch some wrong-uns plotting things. Which isn't to say that that's a worthwhile benefit to losing your civil liberties, but it is a reality.

No claim is even made in that article that any of the 50 were due to GCHQ omni-spying.

[Yevrah]

None have been foiled. Or we're supposed to take it on faith that they have, but aren't telling us.

None? NONE? NONE?

Seriously.

[Henry]

It's gone beyond just middle-eastern policy, these nutters are living among us.

The radicalisation is happening in and because of the middle-east. One needs to address the source.

You smash the shit out of the place for decades, and you're going to get nutters with crazy ideas.

[Yevrah]

No claim is even made in that article that any of the 50 were due to GCHQ omni-spying.

How do you think they've done it then?

[Henry]

None? NONE? NONE?

Seriously.

Yes, none. Read my source on the previous page about the NSA.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

I suspect special forces are doing stuff all the time, it's not exactly going to be announced given its nature.

[Yevrah]

The radicalisation is happening in and because of the middle-east. One needs to address the source.

You smash the shit out of the place for decades, and you're going to get nutters with crazy ideas.

So you don't think there's any element of Islam just not being compatible with Western beliefs and people being prepared to die for that as a result? It's ALL down to our absolutely hatstand middle eastern policy?

[Henry]

How do you think they've done it then?

"Intelligence" is a broad field which was around long before the Tempora program.

[Magic]

Its both Yev.

[Toby]

There's only so much that can be taken, isn't there. I'm as anti-war as anybody, but when the situation deteriorates to this state it's about the only option that is left. This kind of stuff can't keep happening.

War with whom?

[Henry]

So you don't think there's any element of Islam just not being compatible with Western beliefs and people being prepared to die for that as a result? It's ALL down to our absolutely hatstand middle eastern policy?

There are plenty of Muslims who manage to live in the west without being terrorists, so it isn't because of some fundamental incompatibility.
That said, you can't reduce complex things to single causes. But we can only address the things that are under our control, and the things I mentioned are clearly major factors.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There's too much concentration on American shit like the NSA and other stuff that attracts internet wackos. Americans are completely incompetent at the best of times and have nothing to do with internal security in Europe anyway. Nor are GCHQ sitting there in Cheltenham popping terrorists as they listen in to their pizza orders.

These people get caught and attacks get foiled by very simple local intelligence and if there's evidence that crime is being committed then they can be arrested. If there isn't then they can't and sometimes people will be able to slip through the net like this. The question is therefore a fundamental one of how do you look at enough people and get that evidence 100% of the time. That isn't about necessarily about making SNOOPER laws and crap agencies, but it is about giving them the resources they need to do their jobs to the fullest extent. Theresa May is determined to do the opposite.

[Yevrah]

There are plenty of Muslims who manage to live in the west without being terrorists.

Yeah, course. I wasn't suggesting otherwise, even if my post wasn't that well worded.

[Magic]

What we need is a well timed poll of British Muslims to see if they agree with this attack.

[Yevrah]

What we need is a well timed poll of British Muslims to see if they agree with this attack.

There's little point, the results will just be misrepresented, as they always are.

How can this American twat on Sky be advocating more air strikes? They're fucking useless.

[randomlegend]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is none to be honest. People aren't planning terrorist attacks through Facebook messenger and (despite what you lot seemed to think before) everything I've read says that encrypted communications can't just be lolled into by security forces

[Dquincy]

Whoever starts this sort of shit will be responsible for multiplying the amount of radicalised Muslims greatly, and will thus become the victim of more attacks.

Couldn't agree more, that mindset would only cause to make things worse, in my opinion.

[Yevrah]

Couldn't agree more, that mindset would only cause to make things worse, in my opinion.

It no doubt will.

[Dquincy]

Globalisation is to blame. Islam isn't designed to function alongside other things. It only works if it's the only show in town.

Hence, why we give them their town far away, leave it alone, monitor it and make sure they don't want to make their town any bigger.

[Magic]

There's little point, the results will just be misrepresented, as they always are.

How can this American twat on Sky be advocating more air strikes? They're fucking useless.

It was a joke, you mental.

[Dquincy]

Theresa May must be buzzing at that post Harvey. Trusting the government with even more powers is terrifying in my eyes.

Why does that terrify you? I would happily allow the government to monitor the porn and forums I use on the internet if it meant a safer country.

[Dquincy]

You need to go after those who committed the acts, but it needs to be primarily with a view to bringing them to justice, and it need to be targeted so that you don't end up creating 1000 more suicide bombers by smashing the fuck out of whole cities and regions in Iraq/Syria/genericshithole.

I think what we'll probably see is an increase in special forces operations to knock out certain individuals and groups. What would be interesting is whether they'd be willing to put in larger forces if certain opportunities presented themselves.

There's that SAS programme on at the mo (which is great by the way!). I have no point, it's just a great show. :)

[DC]

None of my Muslim friends agree with any of this shit because they rightly identify the individuals with the compatible IS views as idiots. In conversations like this they do not control the narrative amongst the Islamic communities any more than we can control the narrative amongst Britain First, or the Irish can control the militants over there, or the Ukrainians, or the Spanish, or Russians with their own segregationist nationalists. The Saudi's and such are shitting themselves, they know they have control in their own states through wealth alone and rigid control over the narrative (as with Iran and N. Korea).

This is not an "Islamic" problem.

These are people possessed with an ideal, and willing to kill for it. Any ideal would do. Telling them that it is wrong isn't any more likely to succeed than telling a Republican that the free market and God aren't their their ultimate saviours.

[Dquincy]

I also feel that these 'groups' who carry out such attacks are several hundred years behind the western world in terms of society development and their approach to politics and governance. Barbarians, bit like Genghis Khan.

[Yevrah]

What sort of person sees this on the news and thinks "I need to get down there to take some pictures"?

[Dquincy]

Journo's and pervo's.