So things seem a bit mad in France

[Spoonsky]

I had a subdued lol at "urban farmer", but that Twitter page really is good. Gets very hard to read after a dozen or so, especially when they've got kids.

The real question, though, is where is @BeirutVictims??

[phonics]

My friend who was in Paris last week took a plane to Porto with her brothers for a day's jaunt on Friday morning and then came back Saturday morning. Lucky bastard she is, in more ways than one.

Mate, it's not a village. It has 2.5 million people over 100km.

'I know a John in London, you're from London. Do you know John?'

[Pepe]

I was in Paris last winter (or was it the one before?) Still getting palpitations at night, imagine what could've been.

[Spoonsky]

She was staying in Paris for the whole week except literally the one day terrorists attacked. They weren't staying far from where one of the attacks happened. That is lucky.

[phonics]

Where 'isn't far'?

[Spoonsky]

She said three blocks away, I think? I could be wrong. I didn't ask her for the address obviously.

To leave Paris on the day this happens and then come back the next day is lucky, that doesn't seem like such a hyperbole to me.

[Lewis]

By failed miserably I mean that, compared to the plan they put out there, they met none of their principal objectives. In particular if you look at the original plan for the Pacific it didn't involve losing several hundred thousand men or taking 4 years...same for Korea...same for Vietnam.

While Patton careened around Europe cutting off supply chains and outmanoeuvring the enemy, MacArthur walked his troops into every ambush (armour or no armour) and carpet bombed the bejeezus out of the jungle to no avail other than killing indigenous life.

That's what Schlicter is espousing. Not smart tactics, just the usual indiscriminate boots on the ground and hope that the badguy does what we think it will while we drive around in our impervious tanks (not) carpet bombing the sand into dust.

Watch the Russians. If they don't do it, the US certainly shouldn't.

Their principle objective was kicking fuck out of Japan, which they did with about as much effectiveness as could be expected given the Japanese strategy and the fact that the Pacific didn't offer much scope for out-manoeuvring beyond starving the twats out. The failure of their initial plan to goad the Emperor into a winner-takes-all eating contest doesn't invalidate what won it for them.

I should say I was half-joking in my initial response. It's the Syrians who should be wiping them out. Not us. But the basic idea of killing them all is sound.

[elth]

Imagine this place during 9/11? Was it around?

Sure was, it was how I found out about it as it was happening as someone posted a bit after the first plane hit.

[Lewis]

I read a while back that if London had the population density of Paris it would house thirty-million people. I've never been to Paris (phew), so does that sound right? Is it lol packed everywhere? Maybe that's why our last terrorism only took out roughly a third as many people.

[phonics]

I read a while back that if London had the population density of Paris it would house thirty-million people. I've never been to Paris (phew), so does that sound right? Is it lol packed everywhere? Maybe that's why our last terrorism only took out roughly a third as many people.

The entire city is 6-10 story flats whereas there is about 3 people actually living in Kensington at this point.

edit: don't go to Paris, it's a dive.

[John Arne]

Looks like they have a couple of them surrounded, large explosions heard - several still alive, apparently.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60wDzZt8yg

[Bernanke]

2 dead, 3 caught. Woman with suicide vest didn't go off.

[John Arne]

Apparently the women's vest did go off.... and also a passer-by on the street was somehow killed also. The other guy was taken out by a police sniper.

Sky News are all over the place. Th3e "reporter" on the ground has got a fucking clue what's going on, whilst Eamon is just claiming all sorts of bullshit.

[Lee]

Hold on, the bloke who planned this is in there, not in Syria? Well that's a bit special.

[Yevrah]

Hold on, the bloke who planned this is in there, not in Syria? Well that's a bit special.

Looks like there are so many of them over here now that they probably don't need much help from HQ.

[Yevrah]

The news "people may wonder how on earth he got back into France"

Yeah, it's a mystery. :Sherlock:

[Dquincy]

She said three blocks away, I think? I could be wrong. I didn't ask her for the address obviously.

To leave Paris on the day this happens and then come back the next day is lucky, that doesn't seem like such a hyperbole to me.

If anything it's suspicious. Can she confirm her whereabouts on Friday night and her reason for travel?

[Dquincy]

I read a while back that if London had the population density of Paris it would house thirty-million people. I've never been to Paris (phew), so does that sound right? Is it lol packed everywhere? Maybe that's why our last terrorism only took out roughly a third as many people.

You've never been to Paris. You should, it's a beautiful city...though very scummy and scuzzy it areas. Far more so than London.

[Lee]

The news "people may wonder how on earth he got back into France"

Yeah, it's a mystery. :Sherlock:

It might not be what it seems. He got back over in January as well at the time of the Charlie Hebdo attacks and there was no huge migrant crisis to hide behind then. It has to be questioned whether he went back at all now.

Brilliantly I've just heard on Sky News that he was wanted in connection not only with the attempted train shooting but also with the Madrid bombings. That was eleven years ago, for fuck's sake.

[Raoul Duke]

Seems like it's coming to an end - I'm amazed they've captured any of them alive.

[John Arne]

Even without the recent mass refugee movement, I reckon moving over land borders is a lot easier than we imagine. Especially in places like Turkey and Eastern Europe... just throw $500 at someone, and away you go (I imagine).

[niko_cee]

I doubt the goats need the $500 in all honesty.

[John Arne]

They might need it for the kids.

[Spoonsky]

You've never been to Paris. You should, it's a beautiful city...though very scummy and scuzzy it areas. Far more so than London.

I've always said - visit Paris for a week, visit London for a month. If you just want beauty and monuments then Paris is by far the better, but London is a nicer place to become familiar with, a place where it's easier to feel like you actually live there. From the perspective of an American tourist kid at least.

[Toby]

I didn't realise that France had enacted a state of emergency that basically allows police to arrest anybody they like. The 100+ people they've arrested since this happened mostly aren't connected to these incidents at all (explicitly, at least), but are just people who have been on a watchlist for a while due to connections to Islamist groups.


I've always said - visit Paris for a week, visit London for a month. If you just want beauty and monuments then Paris is by far the better, but London is a nicer place to become familiar with, a place where it's easier to feel like you actually live there. From the perspective of an American tourist kid at least.

:D

The authoritative tone of that opening sentence made me lol, so I'm glad you acknowledge it at least.

[Magic]

I've noticed Spoon province name dropping also. Visit France frequently, m8?

[Davgooner]

The BBC were such dons this morning. Ignored what was going on pretty much until anything concrete was announced.

Sky/Fox just had a shot of a police van for two hours straight.

[Benny]

I just read the news from the BBC site, the rest are bollocks.

[phonics]

Good piece on Corporations trying to 'stand with' people.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/merci-amazon-mais-nous-navons-pas-besoin-de-ta-solidarite?CMP=twt_gu?CMP=twt_gu

I've linked the French version so John Arne doesn't get his nickers in a twist but you can just click below the lede for a English version.

[John Arne]

Completely different scenario, you complete mong.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If you go outside the historic areas of Paris it's basically a complete dump. French cities tend to be opposite to English ones in that the further away you go from the centre, the shitter it gets.

They basically bulldozed the whole place in the early 19th century too, so even the historic bits leave a lot unsaid.

[Lewis]

You've never been to Paris. You should, it's a beautiful city...though very scummy and scuzzy it areas. Far more so than London.

I'll go when it calms down a bit.

[Boydy]

I'll go when it calms down a bit.

Isn't this your approach to holidays?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6f/d0/9c/6fd09c98c406dfb1b3fbcd8fcbded129.jpg

[Lewis]

Pretty much, although I wouldn't mind having a mooch around Paris.

[Benny]

I've never 'got' Paris, I've been loads of times on school/uni trips and it's never been a nice time away. I do like the South of France, so I'm going to give Marseille a go in the near future with the missus.

[Mazuuurk]

The whole of Marseille is like if you mixed Porthsmouth with Edgware Road. Nice and eclectic in a way, but not much variety. It has a very limited amount of traditional tourist targets (the odd cathedral, the old port), if that's the sort of thing you're after. Great stuff to see and visit within very close reach though, like Aix, Cassis, etc. Wrong thread I suppose.

[Magic]

Superimposed a pic of the NZ flag on to my Facebook profile pic in the wake of the Lomu tragedy. United we stand, divided we fall.

[Kikó]

A guy who posts on another forum was saying the person who let of the firecrackers that shit everyone up the other day, got his head kicked in. Lucky the idiot want taken down by French plod.

[phonics]

Marseille's a shit Naples.

[Pepe]

You want a top tourist destination? Try Beirut you racist fuckers.

[Henry]

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/follow-the-money-and-all-radical-islamist-roads-lead-back-to-saudi-arabia-34211501.html

Leaving this here. Fucking Saudis.

[Magic]

Fucking Muslims*

[John Arne]

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/follow-the-money-and-all-radical-islamist-roads-lead-back-to-saudi-arabia-34211501.html

Leaving this here. Fucking Saudis.

That's a really interesting article, however, it doesn't really provide any evidence that private donors come from Saudi Arabia. It sets the scene really well, and then the article suddenly ends without any sort of evidence. I'm not doubting that's it's true, of course, just hoping for something a little more concrete.

[leedsrevolution]

Going a bit Jeet here but this tickled my pickle.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12235044_10153747677139859_4169208455104195294_n.j pg?oh=7f39c37d78a9144dfa030c94c5caeb19&oe=56B5CE33

[Luca]

Bill De Blasio (no potential relation) just said that we need to punish any private companies whose services might be aid and abet terrorists, in reference to messenger services that they used to coordinate the attacks. Alright, mate. By that logic, you may as well just shut down search engines, all social media, and anything accessed by anyone in Syria. He then went on to say that he didn't "understand the technology very well." No shit.

[phonics]

Considering HSBC were found guilty of money laundering for Al Qaeda, he might have some issues getting that one through.

[leedsrevolution]

Considering HSBC were found guilty of money laundering for Al Qaeda, he might have some issues getting that one through.

Did they? When was that?

I'm not saying it isn't true but it's not something I recall. They had issues with laundering money for mexican drug dealers if I remember correctly?

[phonics]

A report compiled for the committee detailed how HSBC's subsidiaries transported billions of dollars of cash in armoured vehicles, cleared suspicious travellers' cheques worth billions, and allowed Mexican drug lords buy to planes with money laundered through Cayman Islands accounts.

Other subsidiaries moved money from Iran, Syria and other countries on US sanctions lists, and helped a Saudi bank linked to al-Qaida to shift money to the US.

So not quite but pretty much. They also moved money for Hezbollah which the US counts as a Terrorist Org.

[leedsrevolution]

Didn't know that. Not exactly a suprise mind you.

[Magic]

Love how Joe makes these wild claims because he read some student tin hat blog the he ends up dismissing them by reading the facts which he should have done in the first place. :harold:

[Yevrah]

Jeans, flak jacket and a balaclava is such a :swoon: look.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34853657

And despite the detail and even diagrams in the link below, I struggle to get my mind around the absolute horror that the Bataclan on Friday night must have been.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34827497

[Magic]

Just need the terrorists in desert combats, flannel shirts and yellow Cats and we've got CS Source IRL.

[phonics]

While we're here, absolutely loved this bit from Obama

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUFsRHPU8AADpvs.jpg:large

[Mazuuurk]

Apparently the Swedish secret service has raised the "terror threat" from 3 to 4 (out of 5) in Sweden which means a "high risk" of a terror attack. It's allegedly based on some guy being in Sweden which may be a threat somehow.

What I can't keep but wondering a bit is why that is made public just after a deed like this? Will that not just make any potential terrorists more stressed about finishing their job before they get caught?

I've also been thinking on how the French police raided 100 people or whatever during the day. How did they - just after the attacks - all of a sudden know who to raid / arrest / hunt, and where? Am I missing something?

[phonics]

They found the St. Denis location based off a cellphone they'd binned earlier found on CCTV.

As is well known, the last 10 major terrorist attacks have been committed by people they were already watching, so you just pull the rest of the strings.

[Mazuuurk]

OK that makes sense I guess but, how come they don't do anything about them before? It sounds a bit like a dick question but what I mean is... if they are watching someone - at what point can they just go : right, we need to bring this fucker in now?

[Henry]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/17/russia-pounds-isis-with-biggest-bomber-raid-in-decades.html


Putin’s air force just used its nuclear bombers to lay waste to the capital of the ‘Islamic State.’ But they also hit areas that have little to do with ISIS.

The Russian air force just pulled off one of the biggest and most complex heavy bomber missions in modern history—sending no fewer than 25 Backfire, Bear, and Blackjack bombers on a coordinated, long-range air raid against alleged ISIS forces in Syria.

The Tuesday mission, which launched under the cover of darkness from a base in Ossetia in southern Russia, signaled a significant escalation of Moscow’s air war in Syria—and heralded the rebirth of Russian heavy bomber squadrons that once had withered from a lack of funding.

Jesus.

[Davgooner]

Stop calling this cunt a 'mastermind' for fuck sake.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think Russia deploying air strength very much comes under 'he's fit, but is he match fit?'

[Jimmy Floyd]

OK that makes sense I guess but, how come they don't do anything about them before? It sounds a bit like a dick question but what I mean is... if they are watching someone - at what point can they just go : right, we need to bring this fucker in now?

When they have evidence that they can charge them with a crime. Most/many of these will get released but it does at least send a message at a time like this that they know where all the bad guys are.

[Henry]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/18/turkey-cut-islamic-state-supply-lines-erdogan-isis?CMP=fb_gu

Fuck the Turks as well.

All the posturing and speech-making is worth fuck all when politicians don't address these things.


How could Isis be eliminated? In the region, everyone knows. All it would really take would be to unleash the largely Kurdish forces of the YPG (Democratic Union party) in Syria, and PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ party) guerillas in Iraq and Turkey. These are, currently, the main forces actually fighting Isis on the ground. They have proved extraordinarily militarily effective and oppose every aspect of Isis’s reactionary ideology.

But instead, YPG-controlled territory in Syria finds itself placed under a total embargo by Turkey, and PKK forces are under continual bombardment by the Turkish air force. Not only has Erdoğan done almost everything he can to cripple the forces actually fighting Isis; there is considerable evidence that his government has been at least tacitly aiding Isis itself.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Is liveleak not working? I couldn't get onto it yesterday either.

[Yevrah]

While I'm sure there are more things middle Eastern nations could be doing/should stop doing, these constant articles about them smack more than a bit of 1,2,???, profit.

Stopping ISIS won't completely stop these type of attacks either.

[Lewis]

I read that article about the Kurds earlier. What makes him think you could 'unleash' them beyond the territory they give a shit about?

[phonics]

The Turks are definitely neck deep in it, that's for sure. It's such a shady government.

[leedsrevolution]

I say this to my better half a lot. I'm not racist but I've been to Turkey about 5 times and I've never once met a nice Turkish guy. I thought I did once but when we got back to the UK he'd sent my (ex) better half messages about leaving me for him.

Basically they're all cunts.

Edit: I'm not racist but. As if I just said that.

Edit edit: This whole post is just a mess, ignore it.

[Yevrah]

@ Phonics.


They may well be, but stuff like this, said with absolute authority, (based on what?) really pisses me off.


Had Turkey placed the same kind of absolute blockade on Isis territories as they did on Kurdish-held parts of Syria, let alone shown the same sort of “benign neglect” towards the PKK and YPG that they have been offering to Isis, that blood-stained “caliphate” would long since have collapsed – and arguably, the Paris attacks may never have happened.

A thousand word article (most of which is preamble) apparently lays down enough to 'defeat' ISIS without any Western boots on the ground and no more bombing. Who knew?

[Magic]

The Kurds are a bit I'll have some of that too aren't they? In short; anything to do with Islam is fucking revolting.

[Henry]

A thousand word article (most of which is preamble) apparently lays down enough to 'defeat' ISIS without any Western boots on the ground and no more bombing. Who knew?

Everyone knew. It's been obvious for ages that ISIS is recieving crucial support from several important players in the region, and that the west doesn't care enough to upset them about it.

[Yevrah]

Yeah, several, and this chap's claiming getting Turkey alone to do the decent thing would be enough.

[phonics]

A thousand word article (most of which is preamble) apparently lays down enough to 'defeat' ISIS without any Western boots on the ground and no more bombing. Who knew?

Western boots on the ground is exactly what they want. It allows them to claim it's a war on Muslims. If you don't have your Kurds/Turks/Saudis actively fighting them, they win that propaganda war and you get yet another generation of fighters for them to recruit.

On bomibng: The West bomb a terrorist and nine civilians (these are the official stats of the Drone Program as found in The Drone Papers released by The Intercept, 90% casualties are civilian) and you've more than likely just radicalised a couple of people. Whats the point? It's cutting the head off a Hydra.

[Henry]

Maybe he's right. ISIS are a ragtag bunch of irregulars with a few stolen tanks. They're not even a proper army.

[Magic]

The only thing that will stop IS is a legitimate government and troops willing to fight for their country.

[Yevrah]

Western boots on the ground is exactly what they want. It allows them to claim it's a war on Muslims. If you don't have your Kurds/Turks/Saudis actively fighting them, they win that propaganda war and you get yet another generation of fighters for them to recruit.

On bomibng: The West bomb a terrorist and nine civilians (these are the official stats of the Drone Program as found in The Drone Papers released by The Intercept, 90% casualties are civilian) and you've more than likely just radicalised a couple of people. Whats the point? It's cutting the head off a Hydra.

Oh I agree on bombing. It can be filed in the "seen to be doing something bin" and is a complete waste of time.

[Spoonsky]

Go on then: http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/18/3723440/france-refugees/

The Republicans candidates are now calling to stop any Syrian refugees from entering the country. Not a lot of things make me genuinely angry, in politics or in life, but that does.

[Yevrah]

Maybe he's right. ISIS are a ragtag bunch of irregulars with a few stolen tanks. They're not even a proper army.

You don't need to be a proper army when you have a large group of people completely committed to the cause, that don't give a shit about dying.

[Weaver]

Sky reckon a Jewish teacher has been 'threatened, insulted and stabbed' by three people (on scooters!), with one wearing an IS shirt, in Marseille.

[leedsrevolution]

You don't need to be a proper army when you have a large group of people completely committed to the cause, that don't give a shit about dying.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTA7ma9V3-m_1H4z52MwWsjvSwD-zZI1pEPagOeBwiEeAoeSoJN

[Spoonsky]

Sky reckon a Jewish teacher has been 'threatened, insulted and stabbed' by three people (on scooters!), with one wearing an IS shirt, in Marseille.

Talk about adding insult to injury.

[phonics]

You don't need to be a proper army when you have a large group of people completely committed to the cause, that don't give a shit about dying.

Any time they've attacked a base with a single Special Forces member there, they've fled. They run all the time and say on their websites that it was a 'tactical retreat'. This attack just so happens to coincide with them losing 3 cities in the last week.

[Henry]

You don't need to be a proper army when you have a large group of people completely committed to the cause, that don't give a shit about dying.

It's not that large a group.
They're where they are because they have outside support and money, have no co-ordinated enemy (arguably until recently) and because they have some level of support/tolerance within the Sunni community.

This isn't the fucking Werhmacht, and it is frustrating that they should be relatively easily defeated.

[Magic]

Wonder if their merch is decent quality. Can you get IS pencil cases?

[leedsrevolution]

Wonder if their merch is decent quality. Can you get IS pencil cases?

http://i.imgur.com/BUjlJG6.jpg

This is top shit Magic. ISIS self hate condom.

[Lewis]

There is already a reasonably decent army in Syria belonging to the government, but its tanks keep getting blown up with American weaponry.

[Magic]

They've got a penchant for annihilation of their civilians too.

Assad is not a viable alternative.

[Henry]

The Syrian army is fairly shit too, but you're right - they should be able to take ISIS, and would, were it not for the rest of the stuff going on.

[phonics]

666412991500255232

[Magic]

And now they run the world.

[GS]

Assad and the Kurds could level IS with "allied" air support if we actually let them get on with it.

[Magic]

That might be the best bet actually, destroy them fuck the civilians at least it's off our shores.

[phonics]

Assad and the Kurds could level IS with "allied" air support if we actually let them get on with it.

That'll take another half a decade at least. Really, really, don't have that sort of time.

[GS]

That'll take another half a decade at least. Really, really, don't have that sort of time.

IS aren't the fucking Wehrmacht, to quote someone from above. If we (as in the West + Russia) seriously pummelled them from the air and allowed Syrian government forces and the Kurds to take advantage (we'd need to co-ordinate, clearly) then they wouldn't last with as a pseudo-state.

[Henry]

It'd take 6 months at most.

[phonics]

The West + Russia + Assad + The Kurds co-ordinating with each other and it not going horribly wrong?

While we're living in dreamland can we make Corbyn PM during this master cluster fuck of a plan?

[GS]

There are different degrees of co-ordination. You don't need to have a unified high command.

[GS]

From the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12002350/Paris-attacks-Mastermind-Abdelhamid-Abaaoud-killed-in-police-raid-on-Saint-Denis-apartment-live.html

Saint-Denis raid: 5,000 bullets, 8 arrests, and little time to spare
Our team in Paris has the latest on this mornings raid. Gordon Rayner, David Chazan, Henry Samuel and David Barrett report:
French police fired five thousand bullets during a ferocious seven-hour kill or capture operation in which the mastermind of the Paris attacks is believed to have been shot dead.
A dawn raid on an apartment block in the Paris suburb of Saint-Denis was so violent that police must wait for the results of DNA tests to identify the remains of two terrorists who were killed, but the Washington Post claims two intelligence sources have confirmed that one of the dead is Abdelhamid Abaaoud.
A photograph purportedly shows 27-year-old Belgian IS group leading militant Abdelhamid Abaaoud
A photograph purportedly shows 27-year-old Belgian IS group leading militant Abdelhamid Abaaoud Photo: Reuters
Until Tuesday, the French security services assumed the only way to neutralise Abaaoud was through airstrikes on Raqqa, because he was believed to be in Syria, where he had become one of Isil’s most high-profile recruiters.
But then the investigation into the murders of 129 people took an astonishing turn: eyewitness accounts and information found on a discarded mobile telephone suggested Abaaoud was not in Syria, but had all along been holed up in an apartment in Saint-Denis, just a few minutes away from the Stade de France.
Worse still, it appeared he was controlling another terrorist cell preparing for a fresh wave of attacks on Paris.
Paris attacks, St Denis
Paris attacks, St Denis Photo: AP
A vital new lead came from a mobile phone thrown into a bin by one of the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan concert hall on Friday night. The last text message sent from it, at 9.42pm, just as the assault on the Bataclan was starting, said: "Off we go, here we go again." Analysis of the phone's content and its GPS tracker led police not only to a safe house in Alfortville, but also suggested Abaaoud was in Saint-Denis.
A female cousin of Abaaoud, Hasna Aitboulahcn, was placed under surveillance on Tuesday, and at 4.20am local time on Wednesday (03.20GMT), when police assumed their targets would be at their most vulnerable, they moved in with lethal force to the building where she and Abaaoud were believed to be hiding.
Officers from the elite RAID anti-terrorism unit - many of whom had been in action during the attacks on Friday - moved into the apartment block on Rue du Corbillon, hoping to blast their way into the suspects' third-floor flat and capture them before they could react.
The building in the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis where French Police special forces raided an apartment
The building in the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis where French Police special forces raided an apartment Photo: AFP
But their way was barred by a reinforced door which held out against the explosive charges placed against it. What had been planned as a lightning raid was about to turn into one of the fiercest gun battles on French soil in decades.
The sound of automatic gunfire woke the residents on Rue de la Republique and the surrounding streets as police exchanged shots with the terrorists inside.
At 4.45, police got their first breakthrough, when they gained control of a second suspect apartment and arrested three men inside.
But the main target flat was proving impossible. As officers struggled to gain control, Diesel, a seven-year-old German Shepherd police dog, was sent into the building at 5am to tackle the terrorists, only to be shot dead.
Diesel was apparently crucial in the raids, and police reportedly said he 'felt like a colleague'
Diesel was apparently crucial in the raids, and police reportedly said he 'felt like a colleague' Photo: Twitter/PNationale
Stephane Colas, 41, who lives near the Rue de la Republique, said: "I was woken at about 5am by a police helicopter going round and round," he said. "I went outside to see what was happening and the police were going house to house. They were saying 'evacuate, evacuate'."
Aitboulahcn appeared at a window, shouting "help me, help me", perhaps to lure the police in. She was told that if she did not stay where she was, she would be shot, but went back inside.
At around 6am, police began a fresh assault. Their targets were ready for them, wearing their suicide vests. Aitboulahcn was the first to open fire during the fresh exchange, using a Kalashnikov assault rifle.
The police tried to talk to Aitboulahcn, asking her: "Where's your boyfriend?"
"He's not my boyfriend!" she screamed in reply.
A police sniper takes position on a church in Saint-Denis
Photo: AP
Seconds later, she detonated a suicide vest, killing herself and causing the floor of the apartment to collapse. The explosion was so violent that her spine was later found lying in the street outside.
A second terrorist, believed to be Abaaoud, was killed as the battle that ensued, after being "riddled with bullets" and hit by fragments from a grenade.
Unsure how many more terrorists were in the building, the police fell back, and for the next three hours Saint-Denis was the location of a police siege.
Francois Molins, the Paris prosecutor, said: “It was an extremely difficult assault, because the armoured door did not give way straight away to police explosives, thus allowing the terrorists to prepare their riposte. Very heavy, almost uninterrupted gunfire ensued for almost an hour. I can tell you that on the police side we fired almost 5,000 munitions.”
People living in Rue de la Republique and La Rue Corbillon were told to stay indoors as a police cordon was set up around the apartment building.
Then a small robot equipped with a camera, similar to those used in bomb disposal, was sent into the flat to check if anyone was still inside.
French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve (C) arrives at the scene of a police raid in Saint-Denis
French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve (C) arrives at the scene of a police raid in Saint-Denis Photo: Reuters
“It’s as if war has come to our neighbourhood,” said Mohamed Diallo, 22. “It’s like a siege. People haven’t gone to work and everyone is keeping the children at home.”
At around 7.30am local time a series of explosions signalled the start of another assault by the police, now numbering 110 specialist officers.
Five or six explosions were heard, followed by a 90-second pause, then another half dozen blasts.
Police had discovered that two suspects were hiding in the debris caused by the initial assault and suicide bomb, and managed to take them alive.
One of those arrested was brought out naked from the waist down, suggesting he had been ordered to strip off by officers to prove he was not wearing a suicide belt.
Inside the flat was a wealth of evidence that showed another terrorist attack had been foiled. Weapons, explosives, suicide vests and plans for the fresh attack were among the items seized.
With no time to lose, police began questioning the three men arrested in the flat, to establish what they had planned and whether other suspects were still at large.
Paris Prosecutor Francois Molins holds a press conference in Paris
Paris Prosecutor Francois Molins holds a press conference in Paris Photo: AFP
They had reportedly been planning a fresh wave of attacks against La Defense, the financial district of Paris, and Charles de Gaulle airport, Europe's second-busiest, used by millions of Britons each year.
Mr Molins said: "Everything leads us to believe that given their weaponry, and level of preparation they were ready to act."
Jawad Bendaoud, the owner of the apartment, was being interviewed by Agence France-Presse when he was arrested and taken away in handcuffs.
He said: "A friend asked me to let the house his mates for a couple of days. I was asked to help peple out. I had no idea who they were. I don't know them from Adam."
His friend told him the men were coming from Belgium and needed a place to stay for a couple of days.
"I told them there were no mattresses and they said 'That's OK,' they just wanted water and a place to pray," he said.
A friend of Mr Bendaoud – who sentenced to eight years in prison for killing his best friend in a fight in 2006 - said she had slept in the apartment last week and it was a "sort of squat."
Meanwhile police feared the top-floor flat could have been booby trapped with explosives, or that other terrorists were still hiding there.
For the next three hours police planned their next move, evacuating all residents of the apartment and checking their backgrounds to check for any possible links to the terrorists.

Just after 11.30 local time, police confirmed that the operation was over. The apartment building was so badly damaged that it had to be shored up before forensic teams could move in.
Two men and a woman were arrested near the scene, bringing the total to eight, including Mr Bendaoud.
Bernard Cazeneuve, the interior minister, paid tribute to the police who have "never before come under such gunfire”. Five police officers were injured.
François Hollande, the French president, described the raid as: "A particularly perilous and heavy police operation, and paid tribute to police who "knew the dangers, yet no doubt still understimated the violence that they would come up against".

[Shindig]

The West + Russia + Assad + The Kurds co-ordinating with each other and it not going horribly wrong?

While we're living in dreamland can we make Corbyn PM during this master cluster fuck of a plan?

Stick legs on Trident and walk into freedom.

[phonics]

Absolute piss poor attempt at copy pasting there GS.

What am I reading?

[phonics]

There are different degrees of co-ordination. You don't need to have a unified high command.
They'd bomb each other within a month and it would all go to shit.

[GS]

Absolute piss poor attempt at copy pasting there GS.

What am I reading?

Click the link instead, it's a paste in case people (Boydy) have used their article limit for the month.

Basically it seems they've shot the "mastermind", and it's a quite detailed run-through of what happened in the raid this morning.

[Magic]

The mastermind lol. Here's some automatic weapons and bombs. Pick a place full of civvys and start shootin' = profit.

[Boydy]

Click the link instead, it's a paste in case people (Boydy) have used their article limit for the month.

Basically it seems they've shot the "mastermind", and it's a quite detailed run-through of what happened in the raid this morning.
You pay for the Telegraph now?

[GS]

You pay for the Telegraph now?

If you put your browser into "private" it seems to bypass the article limit, so I can still get access for some reason. I assume it's because it's not recording the cookies, but fuck knows.

[phonics]

Best way of getting through paywalls is Googling the headline. Works with almost every site.

[Lee]

I'll try that since I get to my monthly limit frustratingly quickly. They have now identifiee the bomb maker who, it would seem, is holed up in Belgium. Who reckons we should encourage the Germans to invade? Be a cracking WW1 centenary tribute.

[Lewis]

Speaking of which, my grandad couldn't get his head around France having war memorials when 'they haven't won any'. I told him that isn't how it works and that they have, but he did National Service so I was overruled.

[Yevrah]

QT this week.

David Dimbleby presents from London. On the panel: Conservative business minister Anna Soubry MP, Labour's shadow home secretary Andy Burnham MP, former Editor of Le Monde Natalie Nougayrede, Daily Mail columnist and former editor of the Daily Telegraph Sir Max Hastings and the broadcaster and Al Jazeera presenter Mehdi Hasan.

I wonder how that filthy apologist Hasan will attempt to spin this one.

[Lee]

I don't pay much attention so may well have missed something but in what way is Hasan a "filthy apologist"? Pretty sure I've only ever seen him slagging off people who go about exploding in the name of islam. I won't deny that it's entirely possible that I'm confusing him with some other quite famous muslim.

[Henry]

It's probably just code for anyone who doesn't just want to nuke the Middle East.

[Lewis]

He wrote a good article (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/russian-bombs-terror-vladimir-putin-syria-david-cameron) yesterday, but he annoys me on telly. He deliberately speaks too quickly so people can't challenge him, and he pulls stupid faces.

[phonics]

Mehdi Hasan is great. Not sure whats got Yev so het-up. He seems incredibly willing to take people to task on things whenever I've seen him.

[Yevrah]

Murray's shown him up a few times on QT and when he condemns the actions of people he always seems to follow it up with, but...

Then there's that clip of him on Youtube slagging off the non-believing infidels, which no one ever seems to challenge him on.

Essentially, I just don't buy his motives and suspect he's very good at playing the game.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

And he believes Mohammed literally flew to heaven on a winged horse.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUIQW4tUYAAFCZw.jpg

Christ, do fuck off with this nonsense?

[leedsrevolution]

As if Jonah wasn't the main story.

[Reg]

What's wrong with that phonics? They're not gonna do it for the rest of the reason, one weekend seems entirely reasonable.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'd like to think that they'd all sing Jerusalem at Metz v Nantes if it happened the other way round.

[phonics]

What's wrong with that @phonics (http://www.thethirdhalf.co.uk/member.php?u=1)? They're not gonna do it for the rest of the reason, one weekend seems entirely reasonable.

It seems like football has to pretend it's in a perpetual state of mourning just so absolutely no-one gets offended. On Rememberance Day there was a Military Salute then a minutes silence and then a minutes applause. At what point is it just mawkish?

[leedsrevolution]

It seems like football has to pretend it's in a perpetual state of mourning just so absolutely no-one gets offended. On Rememberance Day there was a Military Salute then a minutes silence and then a minutes applause. At what point is it just mawkish?

Football on it's best day is mawkish. On it's worst day it's also mawkish. That is football.

[phonics]

Are Newcastle fans still clapping in the 37th minute or whatever that stupid thing was?

[Lewis]

Ant vs manc sean over that cancer thing [The] Villa were doing was an Old Board highlight.

[leedsrevolution]

Are Newcastle fans still clapping in the 37th minute or whatever that stupid thing was?

In memory of the Frenchman they captured on the beach in Hartlepool? Probably.

[phonics]

No, two people on that plane that crashed happened to be Newcastle fans so we got 3 months or so of clapping until everyone forgot as per usual.

[Reg]

Some things are a bit over the top but Friday's attacks were a pretty huge event so it seems sensible.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Just do a fucking minute's silence. Minute and a half if it's really bad.

[Lewis]

I'll just leave a baguette outside.

[phonics]

What was that one for again? People taking pictures of spades or something.

[John]

Jeans, flak jacket and a balaclava is such a :swoon: look.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34853657

And despite the detail and even diagrams in the link below, I struggle to get my mind around the absolute horror that the Bataclan on Friday night must have been.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34827497

It's a good look for smashing deviants, but the 'Angel of Death' bloke tooling around Iraq wiping ISIS out with an axe and a sword is the best.

http://i.alalam.ir/news/Image/Inner-Media/2015/03/13/alalam_635618557852353741_25f_4x3.jpg

[Spoonsky]

Seconds later, she detonated a suicide vest, killing herself and causing the floor of the apartment to collapse. The explosion was so violent that her spine was later found lying in the street outside.

From GS' article. That's pretty hardcore.

[Spoonsky]

Saw this posted on Reddit and it struck me as being written by a much more articulate Harold, so I thought I'd post it for his sake:


This unfortunately ignores that they're bringing Islam with them. So while they personally may be unlikely to become radicals, they plant the seed of Islam in their new communities, build Mosques, blast out the call to prayer every day, have tons of babies, and create these new Islamic communities that inevitably chafe against liberal western values and freedoms and by the 3rd generation or so you have "home grown" terrorists from kids who grew up in these new countries, and an established Muslim community that radicalizes new converts etc.
This isn't even hypothetical. This has already happened in numerous cities in numerous countries, and is continuing right now.
Islam is the "gravitational focal point" of all of these factors. The ideology itself is the greatest danger we face, and mass importing it to avoid giving ISIS better propaganda is the far worse option in the long run because then the problem that was a foreign problem confined to the middle east, north Africa, and Asia, becomes a firmly European problem as well because we've allowed them to flood Europe and basically demographically take over numerous European cities.
The best long term solution is to keep that ideology entirely out of Europe as much as possible so that they don't have as much ability to radicalize from these communities or leverage existing Islamic networks in the region etc... because we don't let it build up in the first place.
Unfortunately it may be too late for that given the suicidally naive politically correct narrative of appeasement we've been seeing (driven in part by purely short sighted economic concerns of business and government who want cheap labor, but I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole right now).
But it is what it is. Avoiding the elephant in the room of these migrants mass importing Islam into Europe by the hundreds of thousands, even millions, is the far greater long term threat to European culture, human rights, stability, and well being. ISLAM ITSELF is fundamentally incompatible with western democracy, freedoms, rights, etc.
It's core tenets regarding being the "one true religion", the "one true god", apostasy, blasphemy, heresy, and the obligations of all Muslims to strive for a global caliphate to rule the world under Islamic law, among others... are all not only mutually exclusive to western culture and freedoms, but are themselves a powerful catalyst for radicalization.
These things cannot be easily changed either, as they lack the kinds of inconsistency and acknowledgements of government authority etc found in the biblical New Testament ("Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" etc). Islam is clear over and over that you can serve only one master ever, and it makes it clear that Islam, and specifically the leader of Islam if one is chosen, are that master. And that you MUST obey or you are "shirk", and may be labeled an apostate and marked for death.
Which I suppose brings me to a final point... the arguments about how Islam says not to kill innocents. The problem is that anyone guilty of blasphemy, apostasy, being an infidel, etc.. are all NOT considered innocent. You become valid targets the moment you are in violation of the commands and will of Islam and Sharia. You are a threat to the law and to the goals of Islam. This is why extremists feel completely justified and right in killing people they see as the enemies of Islam... and they see themselves as like those early Muslims struggling against the infidels in Mecca etc in their attempts to spread the one true religion, the religion of peace, and that only when the whole world is subdued under a global caliphate can there ever be true peace.

EDIT: That looks shit on here. Here's the post: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3tcy91/paris_attacks_the_eight_terror_suspects_named_so/cx5aber

[ItalAussie]

Saw this posted on Reddit, so I thought I'd post it:
Adjusted for accuracy. Let's not bring Harold into this when he's happily banned.

You found it. You posted it. Nothing to do with him.

[Magic]

Yep, looks like Harold alright.

[Giggles]

We're not allowed even mention Harold? :D

[ItalAussie]

Of course you can. But posting "Harold would say this" is a rather dishonest approach. Are you saying it?

[John Arne]

At least you aren't taking this too seriously. :)

[Toby]

I've also been thinking on how the French police raided 100 people or whatever during the day. How did they - just after the attacks - all of a sudden know who to raid / arrest / hunt, and where? Am I missing something?

Because they've declared a state of emergency which gives police more power to detain people on vague suspicions rather than waiting for solid evidence.

[randomlegend]

Fuck off Ital.

[Boydy]

I haven't watched this whole video but Maajid Nawaz is really good here from around the 25 minutes mark:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=465Wt-eX2RY

[Jimmy Floyd]

Maajid Nawaz is always good, particularly considering the number of enemies he has.

I remember he went to a strip club or something on his stag do and got barraged with death threats.

[phonics]

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/nov/19/cloudflare-accused-by-anonymous-helping-isis

CloudFlare accused of helping ISIS. No wonder we got all those CloudFlares, they were trying to stop Harold from fighting the good fight!

[Mazuuurk]

Apparently we're supposed to say Daesh instead of ISIS, cause they hate that.

Unfortunately, I think it sort of sounds cooler. I'm also pretty sure it's the name of one of the assassins that chase Jason Bourne in one of the films.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There's a beauty parlour in my town called 'Isis Hair & Beauty'. I reckon it must have opened no more than six months before Isis became a thing.

Osiris is the real boss anyway.

[phonics]

The dog in Downton was bumped off for being called Isis.

[Jimmy Floyd]

That was Downton Abbey wasn't it? Or as I usually refer to it 'the worst programme ever made'.

Shame there are no jobs in rapid post editing eh.

[phonics]

ninja edit for the win.

[Lewis]

If we're refusing to call them 'Islamic State' we should really be calling them 'Faggy Fag Faggotland' or something that might actually annoy them.

[Disco]

You can't draw silly beards and glasses on them as they've done half the job themselves but we could easily start calling them Jizzlamic State or something.

[Pepe]

Apparently we're supposed to say Daesh instead of ISIS, cause they hate that.

Unfortunately, I think it sort of sounds cooler. I'm also pretty sure it's the name of one of the assassins that chase Jason Bourne in one of the films.

That's what the French call them. Not sure I would be following their example after what happened.


There's a beauty parlour in my town called 'Isis Hair & Beauty'. I reckon it must have opened no more than six months before Isis became a thing.

Osiris is the real boss anyway.

Just yesterday I was reading a paper on plasmons written by ISIS themselves. Didn't know terrorists were that much into optics research.

[Pepe]

This was the one:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v424/n6950/abs/nature01937.html

Massive lols init?

[Yevrah]

I haven't watched this whole video but Maajid Nawaz is really good here from around the 25 minutes mark:

He's really very good.

[Henry]

There's a video going around of a 19 year old Syrian soldier being "executed" by ISIS by running over him in a tank. Not sure why I watched it. Makes you even more angry. :mad:

[Lewis]

I saw that a while back. His body held up better than I expected it would (unlike his head, which literally got mashed).

[Luca]

Lol if this (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/police-called-roma-midfielder-mistaken-6861744) is true.

[ItalAussie]

So I'm a fan of solidarity in general, and I think everyone singing the French anthem at the international match was a nice touch.

This (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/34872166) seems mawkish and an over-the-top ploy for brand attention.

[Spoonsky]

Of course you can. But posting "Harold would say this" is a rather dishonest approach. Are you saying it?

Harold expresses a particular viewpoint which is otherwise largely absent on the board. What I posted expresses the same viewpoint. Why are you even bothering about this?

[DC]

Cracked article that actually bothers to try and learn from our enemy, and learns exactly why a land war in Syria is exactly what they want. (http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/)

[DC]

Their principle objective was kicking fuck out of Japan, which they did with about as much effectiveness as could be expected given the Japanese strategy and the fact that the Pacific didn't offer much scope for out-manoeuvring beyond starving the twats out. The failure of their initial plan to goad the Emperor into a winner-takes-all eating contest doesn't invalidate what won it for them.

I should say I was half-joking in my initial response. It's the Syrians who should be wiping them out. Not us. But the basic idea of killing them all is sound.

It was established in 1942 by US Intelligence that the only way to make Japan quit was to capture Japan. there was no need to tackle Borneo or any of the occupied islands, they offered almost no threat if the Americans could shut up the naval yards. After the Battle of Midway the call was to go direct at Japan and cut off their manufacturing power, destroy their supply chain, and ignore the few hundred thousand troops now isolated in jungle shit holes (or continue bombing them to fuck and deprive them of their air strips). The preferred option was to actually Pearl Harbour the fuck out of Japan and destroy its harbours then sail right up to Tokyo and shell it into the ground - comfortable in the knowledge that the Japanese home defence was abysmally prepared - the Marianas were identified as essential to this plan but Roosevelt was committed (for some unknown reason I have yet to fathom in any books or documentation) to fighting jungle wars.

Pretty much universally everyone considers the Pacific campaign a complete cluster-fuck where the US military tried to piecemeal itself forwarded bases to launch limited attacks from. The limited range of their bombers prior to the B29 was a factor to be fair, but they spent two years trying to dig the Japanese out of mountains of no strategic value just so that they could island hop some resources in.

Almost as stupid as the British invasion of Burma. :cab:

[Pepe]

There is also this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[DC]

Is a good read. I do find it bizarre that so many, particularly US led media, keep repeating this "US is confused" and "US didn't forsee" and "...the first signs were in 2011..." type of bullshit as if that is factual. The US knew the Iraq army wasn't up to scratch but was powerless to enable them no matter how well equipped they were.

Even the Onion saw it coming (http://www.theonion.com/multiblogpost/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-regio-11534), but so did some quite serious people. (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qaTaAAAAQBAJ&dq)

[ItalAussie]

The Onion has refined "sneaking incredibly acute commentary into ostensible satire" into an artform.

[Magic]

You know what this thread needs? More opinionated articles with the poster claiming it's right.

[Boydy]

Hotel attacked in the Mali capital this morning and hostages taken. I'm sure this will get as much attention from all the 'what about Beirut' tragedy hipsters. They seemed to go pretty big on those Nigerian suicide bombings earlier in the week too.

[Lee]

By the sounds of it it's likely that French and American citizens are being targeted so there will be plenty of coverage.

[Kikó]

What about Beirut?

[Weaver]

Hotel attacked in the Mali capital this morning and hostages taken. I'm sure this will get as much attention from all the 'what about Beirut' tragedy hipsters. They seemed to go pretty big on those Nigerian suicide bombings earlier in the week too.

170 hostages according to Sky via Reuters.

[Davgooner]

For some reason I hunted down that Syrian soldier vs tank video. :serious:

[Henry]

So, turns out that this "mastermind" bloke that they killed spent last weekend after the attacks getting drunk and high. Not very Muslim of him.

You hear things about similar decadence among ISIS fighters in Syria too - multiple women and so forth. Which raises questions about their actual commitment to an ideology at all.

[Toby]

This is brilliant:

https://www.facebook.com/events/912203518918649/

Somebody's made an event page for a "Pyjama Party at Jawad's", mocking the guy some of the attackers stayed with in Belgium, who claimed to Sky interviewer he "didn't know who they were and just agreed to do a favour".

That interview itself was pretty funny because seconds after finishing that line he was hauled into the back of a police van.

[Boydy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUMYhdWW4AA8yYZ.jpg:large

:D

[Henry]

170 hostages according to Sky via Reuters.

The BBC reports that hostages who can recite passages from the Koran are being released.
I could quote a couple of verses - in English. I wonder if that might get me off. :serious:

[phonics]

This is brilliant:

https://www.facebook.com/events/912203518918649/

Somebody's made an event page for a "Pyjama Party at Jawad's", mocking the guy some of the attackers stayed with in Belgium, who claimed to Sky interviewer he "didn't know who they were and just agreed to do a favour".

That interview itself was pretty funny because seconds after finishing that line he was hauled into the back of a police van.

Some of those memes are too good.

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12239485_1700128396887523_1359862635199646798_n.jp g?oh=2e28e2cb858bcbcf9e8f8d10a39f4647&oe=56E2087D

And the one about them coming back from 'Syrie' "I thought they were talking about the iPhone."

[Toby]

What's the one say? My limited French / Google Translate isn't coping well with "Kalash".

There's a great poll on that page I linked. "Jawad began to have doubts about his tenants when..." with options like "one of the terrorists asked if he could pay his rent with Allah's will" and "one of the terrorists asked if his suicide belt made him look fat".

[Henry]

That Four Lions movie is probably more accurate than we realise...

[phonics]

T'as Kalash? (Kalashnikov/AK47) = T'as Quelle Age? = How old are you

I told them 32 years old.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Kalash / quelle age is my guess and it's mocking thick terrorists, Four Lions style. God I'm good.

[Toby]

:D

That's obvious now it's pointed out.

[niko_cee]

Someone has made the error of parking on yellow line in Baker Street and have had their car blown up for their trouble, apparently.

[Lewis]

It was established in 1942 by US Intelligence that the only way to make Japan quit was to capture Japan. there was no need to tackle Borneo or any of the occupied islands, they offered almost no threat if the Americans could shut up the naval yards. After the Battle of Midway the call was to go direct at Japan and cut off their manufacturing power, destroy their supply chain, and ignore the few hundred thousand troops now isolated in jungle shit holes (or continue bombing them to fuck and deprive them of their air strips). The preferred option was to actually Pearl Harbour the fuck out of Japan and destroy its harbours then sail right up to Tokyo and shell it into the ground - comfortable in the knowledge that the Japanese home defence was abysmally prepared - the Marianas were identified as essential to this plan but Roosevelt was committed (for some unknown reason I have yet to fathom in any books or documentation) to fighting jungle wars.

Pretty much universally everyone considers the Pacific campaign a complete cluster-fuck where the US military tried to piecemeal itself forwarded bases to launch limited attacks from. The limited range of their bombers prior to the B29 was a factor to be fair, but they spent two years trying to dig the Japanese out of mountains of no strategic value just so that they could island hop some resources in.

Almost as stupid as the British invasion of Burma. :cab:

It's worth noting that they did ignore plenty of Japanese-held territory, and generally concentrated on what they required for airfields and supplies. That was the main problem given the logistical burdens of supporting any sort of armed forces across an ocean without a proper base to operate from. Similarly, those 'jungle wars' were primarily about alleviating pressure on Australia. Not because they were going to invade, but because unless Australia was completely secured it was hard to maintain a line of communication and concentrate supplies (although I wouldn't discount the idea that the Australians were bricking it). That (in tandem with understandable 'political' reasons) was also why they wanted the Philippines back.

They blockaded and bombed Japan pretty effectively for much of the campaign, and yet they never cracked. So why would sailing up to Tokyo and hammering it have done anything? Unless they were taking a large invasion force. But then you've got the supply issue again. Also, given that the Japanese were still capable of mobilising enough ships and aircraft to mount a decent (if futile) stand at Leyte Gulf in late-1944, it starts to make sense as to why the Americans wanted to control everything and not risk paddling their entire Navy into Japanese waters. If 'universally everyone' thinks that was the wrong way to go about it then shit.

[Henry]

"If anyone shoots at my planes while attacking ISIS, I will make sure that country will be referred to in the past tense, as if it once existed."

“We are going to pursue terrorists everywhere. If they are in the airport, we will pursue them in the airport. And if we capture them in the toilet, that's where they will die"

"Hitler once tried to destroy Russia. Everyone knows how that went"

He's a cunt, but he's got style.

[Magic]

Links to the tank video please?

[Magic]

Found it. Love their production. Miles better than the Taliban vids etc.

[Benny]

If I was a Russian I'd be feeling pretty patriotic right now.

[DC]

It's worth noting that they did ignore plenty of Japanese-held territory, and generally concentrated on what they required for airfields and supplies.

No they didn't. Have you ever actually looked at a map? I mean even a cursory glance at wikipedia reveals more than just a general concentration on airfields and supplies. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/US_landings.jpg) There were some small garrisoned islands that they never landed on, but they instead bombed them to hell and back (largely Nimitz) where MacArthur paid for every inch with thousands of lives.


That was the main problem given the logistical burdens of supporting any sort of armed forces across an ocean without a proper base to operate from.

...and there's the first point of contention - the logistics issue was supporting hundreds of landings on 40 something islands where the US Generals, Navy and Airforce had already identified immediately following Pearl harbour the only one that they really needed to facilitate reducing Japan to rubble.

The US created a logistical nightmare for itself supporting needless campaigns to meet the ego's of several individuals (not least Churchill and MacArthur).


Similarly, those 'jungle wars' were primarily about alleviating pressure on Australia. Not because they were going to invade, but because unless Australia was completely secured it was hard to maintain a line of communication and concentrate supplies (although I wouldn't discount the idea that the Australians were bricking it).That (in tandem with understandable 'political' reasons) was also why they wanted the Philippines back.

There was initially political pressure to secure Australia, but the process undertaken was prolonged, unnecessary and disproportionate. After the fact they turned into horrendous wars of attrition. The MacArthur campaigns were flag waving competitions from start to finish. When you compare the complexity of the European theatre of war, the closest thing you've got to Philippine campaign is the Sicily -> Italy campaign which again resulted in unnecessary waste of life for superficial advantages rescued by successful execution.


They blockaded and bombed Japan pretty effectively for much of the campaign, and yet they never cracked. So why would sailing up to Tokyo and hammering it have done anything? Unless they were taking a large invasion force. But then you've got the supply issue again.

The Japanese had no home defence and little capacity to re-arm itself, a concerted bombing effort would have finished that off completely. You could have done pretty much anything you wanted. What finally forced Japan to quit was horrifically devastating bombing campaign, followed up with two nukes...the argument is we could have started that process in early 1943, if the US had concentrated on seizing the Marianas, and forced the Japanese to stop trying to support their remote operations almost immediately, and bring their vessels back (which eventually happened nearly 2 years later at Leyte). The Japanese would have been far less able to launch its Manchurian campaign, continue to support Burma or drip feed troops through the Pacific if it had been more focus'd on its own defence. Fewer of the 25 million Chinese needed to have died, fewer of the 2 million Allied soldiers needed to have died. Fewer of the 20,000 planes needed to have been wasted etc.

Tokyo was seen as ideal for its location in the centre of the island and would have allowed the US to divide the country in half and destroy the road and communication network

You should read about Chester Nimitz.


Also, given that the Japanese were still capable of mobilising enough ships and aircraft to mount a decent (if futile) stand at Leyte Gulf in late-1944, it starts to make sense as to why the Americans wanted to control everything and not risk paddling their entire Navy into Japanese waters.

By Leyte the Japanese had already ran out of its production capacity, it was a final throw of the dice to stave off the US advance. A lot of their aircraft were under-fuelled, almost no ammunition, and resorting to teenage pilots conducting suicide bombings. The second in command under Nimitz actually made a bit of a tactical (ego) error in trying to seize the (empty) Aircraft carriers which caused some additional unnecessary losses.

But it still didn't explain why MacArthur was still in the Philippines or about to re-invade Borneo. The US wasted 2/3rds of its resources supporting MacArthurs campaign of PR and flag wanks, while Nimitz led a (largely) flawless campaign with a clear path which saw him support short range island hopping adventures.


If 'universally everyone' thinks that was the wrong way to go about it then shit.

They do. Hindsight is 20:20 but the campaign was highly criticised at the time for its massive waste of resources, and alternative campaigns demonstrated the effectiveness of being direct (particularly those under Nimitz who achieved far more with significantly less).

[Benny]

Seething.

[Magic]

So much for Lew being a published history wanker. :harold:

[Henry]

Found it. Love their production. Miles better than the Taliban vids etc.

They do have some talent, but then you look at things like their response to the Anonymous attacks, which was risible.

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/islamic-state-isis-just-responded-to-anonymous-whoa/

[Henry]

What's Lewis's area of specialty in history, though?

[Magic]

You've got to imagine these hackers join IS for obscene amounts of money rather than the will of Allah or actually helping create a caliphate.

[Magic]

what's lewis's area of specialty in history, though?

tth '05-'10.

[Pepe]

What's Lewis's area of specialty in history, though?

War.

[Lee]

Isn't it something like Britain's foreign policy going to shit in February 1954?

[Lewis]

No they didn't. Have you ever actually looked at a map? I mean even a cursory glance at wikipedia reveals more than just a general concentration on airfields and supplies. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/US_landings.jpg) There were some small garrisoned islands that they never landed on, but they instead bombed them to hell and back (largely Nimitz) where MacArthur paid for every inch with thousands of lives.

You will note the loose order of those landings securing the southernmost extent of the Japanese conquests, preventing them from emerging and/or hassling American communications, and then securing everything in the build-up to smashing Japan. It's not like they pissed about in the Dutch East Indies or everywhere else for its own sake.


...and there's the first point of contention - the logistics issue was supporting hundreds of landings on 40 something islands where the US Generals, Navy and Airforce had already identified immediately following Pearl harbour the only one that they really needed to facilitate reducing Japan to rubble.

The US created a logistical nightmare for itself supporting needless campaigns to meet the ego's of several individuals (not least Churchill and MacArthur).

More on this in a minute.


There was initially political pressure to secure Australia, but the process undertaken was prolonged, unnecessary and disproportionate. After the fact they turned into horrendous wars of attrition. The MacArthur campaigns were flag waving competitions from start to finish. When you compare the complexity of the European theatre of war, the closest thing you've got to Philippine campaign is the Sicily -> Italy campaign which again resulted in unnecessary waste of life for superficial advantages rescued by successful execution.

Prolonged and disproportionate compared to what? The majority of the Second World War was a war of attrition, so you're wrong to make out like it was some sort of exception to the European war. It's just that we fought less of it than we had in the First World War, so we think it was all sweeping tank fantasies. Everything Britain did after Operation Compass was a grinding shitfest decided by superior numbers and equipment (including keeping the Germans occupied whilst the Americans rolled through fields in Southern France).


The Japanese had no home defence and little capacity to re-arm itself, a concerted bombing effort would have finished that off completely. You could have done pretty much anything you wanted. What finally forced Japan to quit was horrifically devastating bombing campaign, followed up with two nukes...the argument is we could have started that process in early 1943, if the US had concentrated on seizing the Marianas, and forced the Japanese to stop trying to support their remote operations almost immediately, and bring their vessels back (which eventually happened nearly 2 years later at Leyte). The Japanese would have been far less able to launch its Manchurian campaign, continue to support Burma or drip feed troops through the Pacific if it had been more focus'd on its own defence. Fewer of the 25 million Chinese needed to have died, fewer of the 2 million Allied soldiers needed to have died. Fewer of the 20,000 planes needed to have been wasted etc.

Tokyo was seen as ideal for its location in the centre of the island and would have allowed the US to divide the country in half and destroy the road and communication network

You should read about Chester Nimitz.

You've just said they only gave in because the Americans nuked them twice (having had to quell an uprising to do so), so what makes you think bombing them even more for another six months would have done the job? It's not like they didn't absolutely flatten the place as it was. Short of literally keeping a ring of ships around Japan there was no way you could stop them supporting their armies on the continent, unless you think they would have brought every soldier home to build bomb shelters, and there was no way of doing that. Not unless the entire region was locked down and ready to re-supply it, anyway.


By Leyte the Japanese had already ran out of its production capacity, it was a final throw of the dice to stave off the US advance. A lot of their aircraft were under-fuelled, almost no ammunition, and resorting to teenage pilots conducting suicide bombings. The second in command under Nimitz actually made a bit of a tactical (ego) error in trying to seize the (empty) Aircraft carriers which caused some additional unnecessary losses.

But it still didn't explain why MacArthur was still in the Philippines or about to re-invade Borneo. The US wasted 2/3rds of its resources supporting MacArthurs campaign of PR and flag wanks, while Nimitz led a (largely) flawless campaign with a clear path which saw him support short range island hopping adventures.

What Nimitz did in support of MacArthur was largely flawless (except when naval caution was slowing MacArthur down and forcing Ernest King and George Marshall to compromise), but, in spite of what navalists like to think, you can't actually starve developed countries out of it without land operations, such as those aimed at taking the great big island complex at the centre of the Japanese Empire (Philippines).


They do. Hindsight is 20:20 but the campaign was highly criticised at the time for its massive waste of resources, and alternative campaigns demonstrated the effectiveness of being direct (particularly those under Nimitz who achieved far more with significantly less).

Who is that then? I'll have to read them.

[Lewis]

My 'specialty' is British nuclear policy-making up until about 1964-ish (at which point it gets boring).

[Waffdon]

Found it. Love their production. Miles better than the Taliban vids etc.

:D

So true.

[Lewis]

Did everyone see Brillo giving it the large'un on This Week as well? Tear to the eye stuff.

[Toby]

They did a better job of it, but the idea of reeling off things that make France great was blatantly lifted from John Oliver.

[Shindig]

Beats John Stewart crying about how his view's changed from his flat.

[Magic]

Lewis donning it. :drool:

[Yevrah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34877683

:cool:

[Ian]

Woof.

[Magic]

Did that remind anyone else of Watson's Stewart Cosgrove impressions on Only an Excuse?

[randomlegend]

So yeah....we're changing our new years plans.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Belgians are absolutely fucking useless.

[GS]

Brussels in lockdown.

[randomlegend]

Is Basel nice and relatively unlike to get bombed?

[phonics]

Go to Zurich instead of Basel if you're going for the German part. Much more fun.

[Giggles]

Go to Zurich instead of Basel if you're going for the German part. Much more fun.

Is Zurich not in Switzerland?

[phonics]

Is Zurich not in Switzerland?

Yeah but it's basically three different countries smushed into one.

[Giggles]

Yeah but it's basically three different countries smushed into one.

Ah right. The main rule is just to avoid the French part of Belgium anyway, I'd presume Switzerland is the same.

[randomlegend]

Will have a look, thanks.

[Magic]

Who have thought that these newly founded Muslim areas in European cities would be hot beds of anti-Western views and extremism.

[Shindig]

Anonymous have taken down 20,000 'ISIS' accounts.

[Weaver]

The Daily Mail is reporting that Anonymous have 'spoken to' the International Business Times to reveal a list of ISIS targets for tomorrow night, including WWE Survivor Series.

I call bullshit, but here's the list and link anyway:

Cigales Electroniques with Vocodecks, RE-Play & Rawtor at Le Bizen (Paris)

Concrete Invites Drumcode: Adam Beyer, Alan Fitzpatrick, Joel Mull at Concrete (Paris)

Demonstration by Collectif du Droit des Femmes (Paris)

Feast of Christ the King celebrations (Rome/Worldwide)

Al-Jihad, One Day One Juz (Indonesia)

Five Finger Death Punch (Milan)

University Pastoral Day (Holy Spirit University of Kaslik, Lebanon)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3328612/Online-activist-group-Anonymous-uncovers-ISIS-threat-against-Atlanta-WWE-event.html

The FBI have since got involved with the WWE part, saying they've recieved no 'credible information' about it, and Triple H has posted a tweet to say "@TripleH: .@WWE Survivor Series is currently scheduled as planned while we investigate reports with authorities."

Odd.

[Lewis]

Barrett jobbing to ISIS. :drool:

[Byron]

Are you sure you'll be okay? I mean you were in Tunisia a year before the shootings there so it could be a dangerous situation for you.

[Weaver]

Barrett jobbing to ISIS. :drool:

1...2... Cena kicks out!

[Magic]

Are you sure you'll be okay? I mean you were in Tunisia a year before the shootings there so it could be a dangerous situation for you.

:harold:

[Benny]

Going to Ghent in two weeks, can't wait to headbutt an ISIS.

[Davgooner]

I'm in Brussels next Sunday. The fuckers need to get things sorted.

[Boom-Boom]

Can you drive to France from Belgium without being stopped? Are there border checks?

[Lee]

There are since the attacks. There weren't before.

[Boom-Boom]

Is that the same throughout Europe now?

I'm guessing this guy who's on the run can't just drive straight into Germany?

[phonics]

You can get stopped at any time, it's just up to the border. There are 5 borders to France within 20 minutes of here, 1 is constantly manned and searched, 2 occasionally have people and the other is permanently empty.

[ItalAussie]

You can get stopped at any time, it's just up to the border. There are 5 borders to France within 20 minutes of here, 1 is constantly manned and searched, 2 occasionally have people and the other is permanently empty.

A friend of mine uses the empty one when he buys alcohol in France.

[phonics]

Quite. I'd do all my shopping in France if I could be bothered.

[Lee]

When we drove through Western Europe a few years back the only borders we were stopped at were when we were entering Switzerland (we left through Germany) and the UK. Be interesting to see how much that has changed.

It will be a massive shame if it has done so permanently. Having to wait around for ages between Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro in the summer was a pain in the arse and made you glad to have freedom to travel through (most of) the EU. We ought not to give that up; securing the external borders (after a period of validating who is currently inside) and sharing intelligence should be the priorities.

[Magic]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=79e_1448251628

Islamist nut job tries to grab French cops' gun. Why on earth he didn't trigger the fuck out of the cunt I'll never know.

[Magic]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f28_1448234536

Guy from Bosnia gets caught out trying to be a Muslim in Bradford. :D

[Lewis]

The headlines from the government's defence review seem to indicate that they got the previous one (2010) wrong. Good going, lads.

[John Arne]

A friend of mine uses the empty one when he buys alcohol in France.

You sure do have a lot of friends...

[Magic]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3330368/Chinese-police-use-FLAMETHROWER-terror-suspects-grenades-tear-gas-fail.html

:drool:

[Disco]

Can using grenades really be said to be 'luring'?

[Henry]

http://www.theguardian.com/media/reality-check/2015/nov/23/does-the-suns-claim-about-uk-muslims-sympathy-for-jihadis-stack-up?CMP=fb_gu

Top class polling by The Sun. Hi Harold!

[Jimmy Floyd]

Survation are the pollster you use if you have a preset agenda and want to 'prove' it. See also its rampant business from the nats.

Kind of works for them. They must get shitloads of business from companies wanting to plant things in industry rags and the like.

[Henry]

But why would a reputable and "brilliant" newspaper do such a thing?

[Yevrah]

Putting aside the dodgyness of the Sun's polling source, there do seem to be a constant leaps to the defence of the polled opinions of 'moderate Muslims', disputing or manipulating any evidence that may show that there's a significant minority that hold some pretty fucked up beliefs or sympathies.

[Yevrah]

But why would a reputable and "brilliant" newspaper do such a thing?

Have any legitimate polls been done on opinions about the Paris attacks yet?

[Jimmy Floyd]

You wouldn't get big enough Muslim samples in a normal poll for it to be meaningful (if it was Muslim attitudes you were after). You'd need to do an Ashcroft-style special which is more expensive than a national paper would bother with.

Instead you can get Survation dredging up Asians from their rubbish panel, which is better than basing it on 4 Muslims that rock up for the standard poll, but still not worth looking at. That said, 1 in 5 wouldn't be an outrageously out there figure if you worded it broadly.

[Yevrah]

You wouldn't get big enough Muslim samples in a normal poll for it to be meaningful (if it was Muslim attitudes you were after). You'd need to do an Ashcroft-style special which is more expensive than a national paper would bother with.

Was this one not legitimate either?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196

[Jimmy Floyd]

Was this one not legitimate either?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196

That's fine as they seem to have actually found 1,000 Muslims. Given that there aren't actually that many Muslims in the country they must have proper gone at it to get a proper sample in just three weeks, mind. Probably stood outside mosques with clipboards.

[Lee]

"Some sympathy for motives" is a shit phrase though. Having sympathy with motives is nothing like sympathy with actions and even further from agreement. I'd like to see a poll which asks the straight question; do you think what Muslims did in Paris was okay?

[Yevrah]

That's fine as they seem to have actually found 1,000 Muslims. Given that there aren't actually that many Muslims in the country they must have proper gone at it to get a proper sample in just three weeks, mind. Probably stood outside mosques with clipboards.

Well it's comforting to know that 240 of those 1,000 disagreed with this statement = acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhammad can "never be justified".

Lovely stuff.

[Yevrah]

"Some sympathy for motives" is a shit phrase though. Having sympathy with motives is nothing like sympathy with actions and even further from agreement. I'd like to see a poll which asks the straight question; do you think what Muslims did in Paris was okay?

As would I.

[Henry]

Decent program on Channel 4 right now about these cunts.

A dirty kuffar am I, apparently.

[Magic]

There's nearly 2 million Muslims in the UK?

[Jimmy Floyd]

There are supposed to be 2.7 million in fact. Fuck me, I thought it would be less than a million. There ain't no black in the union jack, support the National Front.

[Magic]

Probably more than that even. Most will support ISIS.

[Toby]

Survation are the pollster you use if you have a preset agenda and want to 'prove' it. See also its rampant business from the nats.

Survation polls for last year's referendum were mostly commissioned by the very Unionist Daily Record, and one or two by Better Together themselves. The SNP typically used the even less reputable Panelbase.

[Lewis]

Decent program on Channel 4 right now about these cunts.

A dirty kuffar am I, apparently.

Say what you want about the wankers going out there, but at least they're making the effort and living up to their shite. Being ISIS' man on housing benefit is just cowardice.

[Yevrah]

There are supposed to be 2.7 million in fact. Fuck me, I thought it would be less than a million.

It's 5%, no? So that sounds about right. Maybe a little low if anything.