Putin On the Ritz

[Lewis]

'In Putin's Russia, Western sanctions cripple you.'

[Magic]

It's a weird missile strike that just immediately sets fire to the entire building whilst barely killing anyone in it.

Staged by the Ukranians.

[Lewis]

More like they were either storing things they shouldn't have been in it, or it caught fire from another building that was a clear cut military target.

[Kikó]

Yeah, I doubt the Russians would do such a thing.

[Shindig]

"Sorry, we were aiming for the Sainsbury's petrol station."

[Don]

1542404744500707330

Yes, Bernie, my don.

[Spikey M]

Someone should have provided that bullet decades ago. Horrible old cunt.

[Yevrah]

How we've reached the stage where Bernie Ecclestone is being given a platform to talk to the nation about the war in Ukraine is beyond me.

[Spikey M]

Getting on the most controversial guests is their whole model to be fair. And it should come as no surprise that he's on Putins side. Doing business with dictators and authoritarian states is how he got where he is in life.

[Waffdon]

1542404744500707330

Yes, Bernie, my don.

1542567051608334336

‘Well I don’t know, it depends if you’re fat’ :lol:

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

That line to end it was incredible.

[niko_cee]

I sort of agree with Hamilton [maybe this should be in the F1 thread] in asking why, other than to provoke outrage and division, people like Ecclestone are given the oxygen of publicity.

[Ben]

It's incredible how Hamilton manages to rile up a good percentage of the population (including non-F1 fans) just by being right. Is it just because he's black while he's doing it?

[Ben]

Well the BBC aren't helping. Their headline basically says Hamilton wants old people cancelled when he's actually said:


"I don't know what their [the broadcaster's] goal is. To hear from someone that ultimately believes in the war, displacement of millions of people and the killing of thousands of people; the person who's doing that, they support him. And I can't believe that's what I heard today.

"This is going to put us back decades, but we have yet to see the real brunt of the pain, We don't need to be supporting that any more. There are plenty of people out there who want to be positive. If they don't want to be positive, don't give them the space.

"No more can we be amplifying these voices that are creating that divide."

[niko_cee]

He's right about cancelling old people as well.

[Shindig]

It's not just his race, it's his wallet. Thick people really can't deal with rich people preaching to them. Bill Gates got shit for the same thing through covid. "What does the computer man know about viruses, HUH!?!?!?"?"!?"@??"?"!QW?>"£Q@?>£Ed

Sorry, I got carried away there.

[Yevrah]

It's incredible how Hamilton manages to rile up a good percentage of the population (including non-F1 fans) just by being right. Is it just because he's black while he's doing it?

More because he's rich from a sport that has the carbon footprint of a medium sized country.

He's right on this occasion though.

[Yevrah]

He's right about cancelling old people as well.

Hardly, if he even said that. It should more be the case that Bernie Ecclestone has no more place on GMTV talking about Ukraine than I do about talking about Formula One.

[Giggles]

It's incredible how Hamilton manages to rile up a good percentage of the population (including non-F1 fans) just by being right. Is it just because he's black while he's doing it?

It’s because he’s a wanker. Being black doesn’t give him a free pass even though he thinks it should.

[Lewis]

You can see how Bernie Ecclestone used to end up on record with a load of wacky comments made during Formula 1 interviews and the like, but he's retired and ninety now, so why is he giving up his valuable shagging time going on morning telly?

[Yevrah]

You can see how Bernie Ecclestone used to end up on record with a load of wacky comments made during Formula 1 interviews and the like, but he's retired and ninety now, so why is he giving up his valuable shagging time going on morning telly?

It is odd. I assume the time difference wherever his Bond villain style island is lends itself to breakfast appearances, but like you say, why bother?

[Shindig]

He's up that early to look after his 3 year old son.

[Don]

Let's not forget Lewis Hamilton is a dirty tax evading piece of shit.

[Disco]

Do tell.

[Don]

Nah got nothing, I just enjoy the fact he has that label and gives it the big one about morals.

[niko_cee]

He was in on the Isle of Man Private Jet VAT scam wasn't he?

Or, should I say, his advisors were.

[Disco]

Oddly Jackie Stewart never caught the same amount of flack for the same thing.

[niko_cee]

Aye, funny that. Nor the people who dreamed up or waved through the concept.

[Jimmy Floyd]

My mum (a middle class boomer who doesn't watch sport) instinctively hates Lewis Hamilton, ostensibly because he wears silly clothes, has a dickhead accent and goes on about BLM, pride etc. That guttural dislike is hard for logic to overcome.

Hamilton's a good man.

[Shindig]

I do like hearing young Lewis when he sounded like a clone of his dad.

[Spikey M]

I think it's a bit of a reach to say it's to do with his skin Colour. For some people it may be, but on the whole people just don't like Multimillionaires that piss and moan about social causes, when they're quite happy to stand in Bahrain and Qatar waving around giant bottles of Champagne. It's a bit disingenuous.

Bono caught the same flack for his endless droning about Poverty whilst being fantastically wealthy. Then there was that executive at Pantene or somewhere telling all the plebs that we should take shorter showers, while their supply chain wastes and polutes billions of gallons a year.

People just don't like smarmy hypocrisy.

[Shindig]

But we're all hypocrites. Granted, the wealth amplifies it.

[Disco]

It isn't just racism but it is partly racism.

[Yevrah]

It isn't just racism but it is partly racism.

I'm sure there are some people who dislike him because he's black and they would be racists, but for the vast majority that do surely it's because of some of the incredibly hypocritical things he says.

Like DiCaprio, you simply can't lecture people on the environment when your carbon footprint is that big, it's utterly ridiculous.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Him being black is just another way in which he is different from what the massed British middle class want from their racing drivers.

Hamilton's ability and record absolutely shits on previous British racing heroes - D.Hill, Mansell and Hunt being his immediate predecessors in this regard - and yet all three of those occupy a totally different and far more beloved cultural space than Hamilton. If you convince yourself that's because he lived in Monaco / had a private jet / likes music / wears clothes then that's you desperately reaching, because they all did the same.

Interesting that Taz takes the gammon line on this one.

[Disco]

If Jenson Button had his record he would probably be King by now, it's beyond obvious if you pay even the slightest bit of attention and it isn't limited to racing drivers.

[Spikey M]

Him being black is just another way in which he is different from what the massed British middle class want from their racing drivers.

Hamilton's ability and record absolutely shits on previous British racing heroes - D.Hill, Mansell and Hunt being his immediate predecessors in this regard - and yet all three of those occupy a totally different and far more beloved cultural space than Hamilton. If you convince yourself that's because he lived in Monaco / had a private jet / likes music / wears clothes then that's you desperately reaching, because they all did the same.

Interesting that Taz takes the gammon line on this one.

All sportsmen live audacious lifestyles, but they don't all do so while moaning that their audacious lifestyle is funded by taking payments (indirectly) from war criminals and dictators. That's what gets my eyes rolling. Atleast with Rashford he grew up poor. He's fighting for a cause he has experienced. Hamilton is just biting the hand that feeds him inbetween mouthfuls.

If you want to take the blood money, then take the blood money, being aware of it and vocal about it doesn't make you somehow a good person.

[Lewis]

Didn't Hill and Mansell drive at a time when Formula 1 was relatively bigger in the British sporting life/culture than it is now (particularly as a live event that people actually sat and watched) and when all of our other sports were crap? The two are no doubt linked.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It has never been bigger than it is now, I would venture to say. Football was on its arse then which I guess made a difference.

[Spikey M]

Worldwide, sure. In the UK, no chance. F1 was on terrestrial TV back then, there were only 4 channels and hardly anyone had Sky. It was huge in the 90's. I can't remember the last time I heard about F1 from someone in the real world.

[Lewis]

From what I can find the viewing figures are down (and then obviously per person), and I would be interested to know how it ranks in terms of what people actually follow as second, third sports etc. These days there is football, daylight, then whatever else. I don't know if they was true thirty years ago. It just doesn't feel right. Everyone knew who Nigel Mansell was when I was a kid, and that won't be because we had collectively decided to elevate him as a solid middle class chap who kept his mouth shut.

There will be some racism in it, but I think Idiotmouse is generally right. Similarly, I think a lot of people defending him is race/class-motivated. If any footballer (particularly one born outside of London) or golfer was cutting about like him you would be calling them a thick chav and/or a wannabe American tool.

[Manc]

His personality is the issue, not the colour of his skin.

[Spikey M]

It's a bit of everything. I wouldn't say it's nothing to do with it, because we've all seen what happens if a black footballer misses a penalty. There's racists out there, and they won't like him. But the geezer is also just a bit of a dickhead.

Imagine if I turned up at work every Monday and gave a speech about how evictions are evil and the companies that do them should be shut down, before putting on my stabproof vest (adorned with Landlord Association and Locksmith sponsors) and went to kick Mrs Buttersby out of her house. Stood outside afterwards, hosing the Bailiffs down with Blue Nun. That's the person Lewis Hamilton is.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It doesn't need out and out racism. It just needs treating people differently as a default because they don't look, dress or sound like you think they should. That's how a lot of British society operates.

And I think it's better he speaks out about stuff, and is a hypocrite, than is Lee Westwood/Ian Poulter and says fuck you I'm taking the Saudi cash because I love cash. Bizarrely, people go on about 'respecting their honesty' when that happens.

[Spikey M]

But he's doing exactly the same thing.

They say: "They're horrible bastards, but I'll take the money".

He says: "They're horrible bastards:( :( :( :mad: :mad:.... But I'll begrudgingly take the money #EndPoverty #LGBTLivesMatter #BLM"

What's the actual difference? He apologises for taking the money?

[Jimmy Floyd]

The difference is that one of them succeeds in drawing attention to those issues and the other one doesn't. If it's a game of 'Who's the most morally consistent in every action in their lives' then he may well lose, but it isn't that.

Again, part of the reason for the lashing out at Hamilton for talking about those things (and reaching for 'hypocrisy' reasons to dislike him for it) is less about hypocrisy that the average white person isn't interested in racial equality/gay rights issues and is often deeply frustrated by having to hear about them.

[Yevrah]

Spikey has it. No one other than its actual fans gives a rat's arse about Formula One since it moved to Sky. The SHOWDOWN brought some transcendent interest, but beyond that your average Joe just doesn't give a shit.

Possibly a wider point as well, but it is a shame how racism is always jumped to as a catch all explanation for the perceived ills in Britain by some. Brexit? Racism. People disagreeing with the bilge Lewis Hamilton spouts from his diamond plated privilege tower? Racism. We're far from perfect, but even a far right lite party could only get an MP in the House of Commons through a defection. Meanwhile, actual countries in Western Europe are fending off genuine far right outfits from actually winning power and huge swathes of Eastern Europe would make how things were here in the 80s look progressive.

We may have a shambolic habitual liar in charge at the moment, but Britain is still pretty good.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Spikey has it. No one other than its actual fans gives a rat's arse about Formula One since it moved to Sky. The SHOWDOWN brought some transcendent interest, but beyond that your average Joe just doesn't give a shit.

Drive to Survive changed that. I would guess that in terms of engagement it's now probably the number two spectator sport in the UK after football. I don't have any numbers to back this up but it feels completely different to three or four years ago.

[Foe]

Do you think Putin likes Hamilton?

[Kikó]

He'd take a bullet for him.

[Lewis]

The problem with 'raising awareness' is that your actions have to be in proportion to the seriousness of the issue, otherwise you just look like a tosser paying lip service to it all. Wouldn't he have raised infinitely more awareness if he had done something significant? If he had refused to race in discriminatory countries, it would have cost him money (which he has loads of), but then Mercedes have a decision to make when their main man walks out, every other team has a decision to make depending on what Mercedes do, the sport has a decision to make based on what the teams do...

Muhammad Ali wouldn't have got within a hundred miles of a firefight had he joined the US Army, but he blew his career up to make a point, and people will remember it forever. Mercedes painting their car black (careful not to obscure the logo of the state-owned oil company of a country where homosexuality is banned) not so much.

[Spikey M]

Nail on head.

[Jimmy Floyd]

A tosser paying lip service to it all is still better than basically agreeing with the fuckers. Hypocrisy doesn't ultimately matter.

[Ben]

A politician, then.

[Pepe]

A tosser paying lip service to it all is still better than basically agreeing with the fuckers.

In which way is it better? Neither has a single effect on anyone affected. The only advantage in this case seems to go to the tosser, who can now claim to be on the good team.

[Yevrah]

Not sure what's happened to Jim here, he was a founder member of team sniffing out bullshit (along with Lewis, John (RIP) and me), but this a real blow to his membership renewal.

[Lewis]

A politician is a good comparison, except people are allowed to think they're wankers without it revealing their secret prejudices.

[Spikey M]

Hypocrisy doesn't ultimately matter.

I can't understand this mindset at all.

[Giggles]

There’s no argument that will win here because when it’s sport or politics you have fans and non fans. And nobody will ever change the mind of either no matter what they do.

Look at most of the posters here and Johnson.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Mohammed Ali example was a good one - Hamilton probably doesn't want to go to those lengths in terms of career suicide, but wants to at least mention it. Why does that make him the villain? Why does it have to be all or nothing? How on earth are people who take the dirty cash and fuck the morals the 'honest' good guys?

Seb Vettel goes much further than Hamilton on the messaging, is equally 'hypocritical', but good on him for doing what he can whilst still doing what you have to do in this era to race full time at the highest level, i.e. turn up to dictatorships.

[Shindig]

I do think when Hamilton talks about racism, he's perfectly suited to chip in. He must get that shit on a regular basis from twats on twitter.

[Giggles]

A cause can be righteous even if the person preaching it is awful.

For me Hamilton is a medial polished turd, but the jagged edges slip out the odd time. A person with absolutely no substance trained to say exactly what they should say at all times, all while cleaning up but pretending not to be.

But then again, if someone is a fan then the above won’t change their mind. Nor will some gushing from a fan change mine.

[Pepe]

No need to be a 'good guy'. Do your job, make your money, get on with life.

[Spikey M]

The Mohammed Ali example was a good one - Hamilton probably doesn't want to go to those lengths in terms of career suicide, but wants to at least mention it. Why does that make him the villain? Why does it have to be all or nothing? How on earth are people who take the dirty cash and fuck the morals the 'honest' good guys?

Seb Vettel goes much further than Hamilton on the messaging, is equally 'hypocritical', but good on him for doing what he can whilst still doing what you have to do in this era to race full time at the highest level, i.e. turn up to dictatorships.

I take very little interest in F1 - the same as most people - so I have no idea what Vettel is up to. If he's pulling the same shit then he's a dickhead as well. Shit or get off the pot. If you're not going to do something, then just shut the fuck up and drive, rich boy.

[Ben]

No need to be a 'good guy'. Do your job, make your money, get on with life.

That’s how you end up with shit like Brexit and the rest of us stood around dicks in hand thinking how the fuck did that happen. Activists are needed and Hamilton actually does a great job of it, even if his hypocrisy/personality/race annoys some people.

[Spikey M]

He's not an activist. Activists are active. He does nothing.

[igor_balis]

I can't understand this mindset at all.

I think hypocrisy is well overrated, at least in the British psyche. It's why there's still so much mileage in accusing anyone remotely left leaning of being a champagne socialist if they don't live in an actual tent. A not so distant cousin of why we hate divers more than leg breakers, it's a weird thing where an honest cunt is favoured over anyone remotely dishonest. I still think Hamilton is a bit of a nobhead though.

[igor_balis]

No need to be a 'good guy'. Do your job, make your money, get on with life.

Libertarianism is a fucking disease.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think hypocrisy is well overrated, at least in the British psyche. It's why there's still so much mileage in accusing anyone remotely left leaning of being a champagne socialist if they don't live in an actual tent. A not so distant cousin of why we hate divers more than leg breakers, it's a weird thing where an honest cunt is favoured over anyone remotely dishonest. I still think Hamilton is a bit of a nobhead though.

It all comes from how deeply entrenched the class system is here (something rarely understood by foreigners) and how anyone who leaves or even flirts with leaving 'where they came from' is seen as a traitor of one sort or another.

Tim Henman, went to a nice school, talks like how you'd expect, plays tennis to a more than adequate standard, tick tick tick. Lewis Hamilton, black, originally working class but got spotted and helped financially on the way up (very bad news that), dresses like a weirdo, talks like a prat, incredible racing driver, unpopular. Jonny Wilkinson, tick tick tick. Raheem Sterling, black, loads of kids at a young age, gun tattoo, bad. Frank Lampard, would have been beloved in rugby, plays football instead, privileged Tory wanker (Eddie Howe also seen as a 'Tory', ostensibly because he talks in full sentences). Jofra Archer, wins the World Cup, wears a gold chain, 'needs to focus on his cricket'. Alastair Cook, 'right sort of family'. Lando Norris, dad has bajillions which is why he's in F1 and other kids aren't, doesn't hide it, 'honest', social media star, tick tick tick. Emma Raducanu, somehow becomes a culture war battleground through no fault of her own. Wiggo and Froome-dog.

It's just who we are as a country.

[Pepe]

Activists are needed

The modern day activists have a horrible track record, since their only goal seems to be to get everyone to say whatever phrase they decided is important to say, as opposed to finding ways to actually fix anything.


Libertarianism is a fucking disease.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but alright.

[Shindig]

The modern day activists have a horrible track record, since their only goal seems to be to get everyone to say whatever phrase they decided is important to say, as opposed to finding ways to actually fix anything.

That partly depends on how expensive the problem is to fix. Although all I can find on Extinction Rebellion's tree planting efforts is a three-week spell in the Scottish Borders.

[Spikey M]

It all comes from how deeply entrenched the class system is here (something rarely understood by foreigners) and how anyone who leaves or even flirts with leaving 'where they came from' is seen as a traitor of one sort or another.

Tim Henman, went to a nice school, talks like how you'd expect, plays tennis to a more than adequate standard, tick tick tick. Lewis Hamilton, black, originally working class but got spotted and helped financially on the way up (very bad news that), dresses like a weirdo, talks like a prat, incredible racing driver, unpopular. Jonny Wilkinson, tick tick tick. Raheem Sterling, black, loads of kids at a young age, gun tattoo, bad. Frank Lampard, would have been beloved in rugby, plays football instead, privileged Tory wanker (Eddie Howe also seen as a 'Tory', ostensibly because he talks in full sentences). Jofra Archer, wins the World Cup, wears a gold chain, 'needs to focus on his cricket'. Alastair Cook, 'right sort of family'. Lando Norris, dad has bajillions which is why he's in F1 and other kids aren't, doesn't hide it, 'honest', social media star, tick tick tick. Emma Raducanu, somehow becomes a culture war battleground through no fault of her own. Wiggo and Froome-dog.

It's just who we are as a country.

This goes on, but just as Jimmy Savile's background didn't matter, neither does Lewis Hamiltons. The bloke would still be a knob if he had been brought up being breast fed by the Queen.

[Ben]

Aye but the media would be a lot more accommodating of him, which still influences a lot of people.

[Magic]

Just watched the Russian lathe accident. He deserved it.

[Don]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/un-says-ukraine-bears-share-of-blame-for-nursing-home-attack/2022/07/09/ea608b44-ff3d-11ec-b39d-71309168014b_story.html

Bit awks that. Hopefully won't make any of the 54 daily Ukraine updates on The Guardian, I'm still trying to come to terms with Peel being a nonce as it is.

[Kikó]

Did you actually read the article?

[Don]

The tears washing away your blue and yellow face paint. We love to see it.

[Spikey M]

Does it not get boring having to take a performative unpopular opinion on every matter? Because it's fuckng boring reading it. You're edgy Taz. "YOU ARE MASSIVE". We get it. Mission accomplished.

[Don]

Here we go, they've sounded the Whatsapp alarm and are congregating.

[Yevrah]

What I'm finding more interesting is how much longer we're going to keep this up for. Now it's clear that Russia (despite all the Western lol, they're useless bunting, which seems to have died btw) are not going to stop, how much longer are we going to allow the global economy to be tanked, while spending billions supporting an effort that is never going to 'win'? I know there's the human element, which is obviously horrific, but horrific things happen to humans on a daily basis - hell, we're often found causing them.

If what we were doing had some sort of end game that would come within a reasonable timeframe then it'd be reasonable to continue until that's reached, but as it is and despite all of our efforts thousands of Ukranians and Russian's are dying, with no end it sight and everyone else is now having to pay six quid for a supermarket pizza. One really does have to question the point.

[Spikey M]

The Surender Monkeys have already started trotting out the "we must not embarrass Russia" line, it's dropped to third or fourth on the News and Ukraine are repeatedly saying that they've run out of weapons. I think interest is disappearing pretty quickly, and once the public forget about it, the politicians will too.

That Japanese politician being killed and the Sri Lankan President being run out of town will no doubt make a lot of politicians consider their position a bit more carefully too.

[Shindig]

I wouldn't lump the Abe assassination in with a popular uprising. Not unless all politicians think they could be murdered by a 40 year old nonce with a duct-taped pipegun any day of the week.

[Kikó]

The Abe assassination is totally unrelated. https://twitter.com/Shayan86/status/1545790726075813888?t=zVtBEuyLHXjul12GqJzwFQ&s=19

[Kikó]

What I'm finding more interesting is how much longer we're going to keep this up for. Now it's clear that Russia (despite all the Western lol, they're useless bunting, which seems to have died btw) are not going to stop, how much longer are we going to allow the global economy to be tanked, while spending billions supporting an effort that is never going to 'win'? I know there's the human element, which is obviously horrific, but horrific things happen to humans on a daily basis - hell, we're often found causing them.

If what we were doing had some sort of end game that would come within a reasonable timeframe then it'd be reasonable to continue until that's reached, but as it is and despite all of our efforts thousands of Ukranians and Russian's are dying, with no end it sight and everyone else is now having to pay six quid for a supermarket pizza. One really does have to question the point.

Russia have readjusted to the after the initial shitshow but Ukraine now seem to be able to strike longer range Russian positions so you're seeing more ammo dumps being blown up.

We should stay in the war for as long as is necessary to stop Russia winning. Even if it means you have an expensive pizza.

[Yevrah]

Russia have readjusted to the after the initial shitshow but Ukraine now seem to be able to strike longer range Russian positions so you're seeing more ammo dumps being blown up.

We should stay in the war for as long as is necessary to stop Russia winning. Even if it means you have an expensive pizza.

As things stand I can afford the expensive pizza, so not much of a big deal, but not everyone is accustomed to the lifestyles you and I have. Why should we stay in the war for as long as necessary? Is it actually in Ukraine's benefit (on the whole) to keep this going for as long as possible? And as has been pointed out many times in this thread, we're not actually even in the bloody thing.

[Shindig]

I can't imagine throwing guns at this is actually a big spend.

[Yevrah]

£1.3b has been pledged, which is a bit Amber Heard, but the bigger issue on the money side domestically (and internationally) is the impact the war itself is having on inflation.

[Ben]

We’ll be involved as long as it provides an adequate distraction to the domestic shitshow.

[Lewis]

The problem is that Russia winning isn't something we really get a say in. Their baseline now is polishing off the rest of the Donbas by September/October and declaring. Run a couple of dodgy referendums, annex them, fill them with troops and equipment while they rebuild them. Then what? We won't recognise it, but they (and half the world) don't recognise Kosovo, and attacks against now official Russian territory are exactly the type of things that are liable to get the gas fully turned off just in time for the cold months. Germany and Italy will start becoming a lot more overt in wanting this over within the next month, and then the others will follow. It will only be us and America left pushing it by then, and if we're involved we want to be getting guarantees from America about liquid gas supplies (either direct or through them leaning on the likes of Qatar).

[Spikey M]

Lockheed Martin are making bank, who cares if the Dierdre and Barry have no heating.

[7om]

Is that the end point to all of this then, Russia takes eastern Ukraine as their own and it becomes “disputed” and we all go back to normal petrol prices? Putin doesn’t actually want all of Ukraine, does he?

[Lewis]

Pretty much. I think the current frontlines won't be a million miles away from the new border once you add the rest of Donetsk.

[Bernanke]

Pretty much. I think the current frontlines won't be a million miles away from the new border once you add the rest of Donetsk.

1546150585463881728

HIMARS are by all accounts already tearing the Russians a new one (I'm teeing that one up for you), and they are adding 3-4x capacity of that combined with the M270s, so we'll see how that works out in the coming months.

[Lewis]

They are liable to have more effect now (which they are doing) than once they have dug in, because then you can better disperse your equipment and remove their function.

[Yevrah]

Gas prices soar as Russia cuts German supply https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62318376

Russia really are on the ropes here… :uhoh:

[Lewis]

They bealing is quite revealing, like sanctioning us back is somehow unfair and an unreasonable escalation.

[Don]

It's a truly laughable state of affairs.

"Critics accuse the Russian government of using gas as a political weapon."

Cretins are swallowing this up whole.

[Spikey M]

It is a bit lol. Or it would be if WW3 wasn't the end result of this shit going tits up.

[Ben]

The BBC comment section is especially gammony. West must stand firm against Russia comments getting loads of upvotes and the sensible ones saying this will end around a table are getting laughed out the room.

[Boydy]

At least when the nukes start falling we won't have to worry about the price of gas.

[Yevrah]

Gas heating supplies now being rationed in Hannover.

At the same time as supplying all these weapons, we are actually pushing for talks to happen, right?

[Lewis]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/28/viktor-bout-brittney-griner-paul-whelan-prisoner-swap

Ed Woodward doing the talks.

[Ben]

Gas heating supplies now being rationed in Hannover.

At the same time as supplying all these weapons, we are actually pushing for talks to happen, right?

I think a not insignificant amount of people would say they would rather go cold than be warmed by Putin’s gas.

[Yevrah]

I don’t doubt it, but then reality bites and they’ll soon change their tune.

I should imagine that particular reality will strike here when it’s five grand to power a house and mortgage rates hit 4-5 %.

[Spikey M]

I'm in the "privileged" position of working with some of the poorest people in the country, and Energy prices are brought up every day. There are some willing to lump it, but attitudes are increasingly turning to "Fuck Ukrainians suffering, I'm suffering".

Putin will be bright enough to know that too.

Meanwhile 500% profit increase at Centrica.

I'm going to start wrapping tinfoil around my head soon because frankly, all of this shit stinks.

[Boydy]

Yeah, never mind the war in Ukraine, we need to be pointing a few of those HIMARs at Centrica's (and the rest) boardroom.

[Yevrah]

The bit I don’t get as I said unthread is that there’s no conceivable endgame to this in the short term. The general public must have been caught up in all the bunting over how useless Russia were (hell some here were) and how their people wouldn’t stand for it, which bought a bit of early momentum, but in supplying weapons we’re prolonging something that will still never be won and in the meantime almost everything our societal structure is based on has caught fire.

[Shindig]

I can only think they're trying to prolong it long enough for Putin to die of old age. An unlikely scenario.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm really surprised that only the lefty papers (and the Star, legends that they are) have the Centrica profits on the front page. It will bring down the government very rapidly and easily if the Tories and their clients don't start expectation-managing the energy price stuff. Truss could be in for weeks at best.

[Don]

Martin Lewis keeps planting seeds with his talk about civil disobedience and refusing to pay bills. I am truly buzzing to see the next 6-9 months play out.

[Boydy]

I don't get why everyone (including other businesses) isn't up in arms about it. How is it good for the economy if people are spending all (or at least substantially more than before) of their income on basic necessities like heating?

This winter is going to be grim.

Edit: what Taz said. I want to see riots and the House of Commons stormed in December.

[Lewis]

Hard not to lol at all the Very Serious People who were predicting an imminent Russian collapse back in March. I thought Ukraine would have been done by now, but otherwise, armed with little more than a functioning brain, I've got so much more right than all of the official channels. If I could access a crumb of that Bellingcat CIA/MI6 money I could become a prominent 'OSINT' bluffer in no time.

'...information gleaned from Russian Faceparty accounts, I think we're looking at somewhere in the region of eleven million Russian casualities.'
*two months of Russian advances and Ukraine needing another entirely new army*
'...we found that, having cross-analysed our earlier Faceparty findings with, Grindr heatmaps...'

[Lewis]

The government will end up nationalising the energy companies and eating the costs directly.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I know one gets laughed at for comparing incomparable countries, but look at where Sri Lanka have got to. I don't see why we would be much different in a few months' time other than in the fact that we're not as corrupt but at the same time our population is far less resilient and needs energy for more things than theirs.

[Lewis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5stftd5qv3M

'And we not only thaved the world... Thaved the energy companieth...'

[Yevrah]

I think something that people fail to realise, even when they see glimpses of it, is that how fragile the foundation everything we have is built on and it really wouldn't take much for it to collapse into a pile of shit. There's also the sheer arrogance that we're somehow peak humans and we've learnt from all of the mistakes previous generations have made, which is laughable.

One only needs to look at the absolute crazy shit that happens when an inch of PANIC hits the front pages and let that sink in to realise that if something actually serious were to happen it'd be anarchy.

I'm sure the Boomer accusations will fly, but the state of shit at the moment, which has been building for years, is so much worse than it's been since the Cold War. The internet is being used for truly horrible purposes that are breaking society, people have the memories of a goldfish, priorities are absolutely all over the shop, rich people are ripping everyone else off and we've had a succession of thoroughly useless governments and opposition parties. Something has to give.

[Ben]

The government will end up nationalising the energy companies and eating the costs directly.

Good. It's about time we got out of the "privatise the profits, nationalise the debt" cycle.

[Ben]

I'm really surprised that only the lefty papers (and the Star, legends that they are) have the Centrica profits on the front page. It will bring down the government very rapidly and easily if the Tories and their clients don't start expectation-managing the energy price stuff. Truss could be in for weeks at best.

You're on the money there. It's obviously to keep the heat off the Tories (pun intended) but it will surely backfire. Surely shivering through December will turn people, despite what the Daily Mail tells them.

[Spikey M]

I started looking for a new job last night, because the thought of doing my job this winter is pretty sickening. I hate it at the best of times, but it's going to be genuinely unbearable.

We have always had the "can't payers" who I do my best to help and the "won't payers" who get the door knock. The trouble is the "can't pay" column is filling up thick and fast and there is nowhere near enough resources to deal with it. It is absolutely fucking grim out there. Genuine poverty.

Fancy a job swap Igor, lad?

[Kikó]

Latest weaponry delivered to Ukraine is helping them push Russian forces back and reduce the artillery dominance they were having in occupied areas. It's going to be a long war but I don't see how allowing Russian aggression is an acceptable outcome considering their acts on the battlefield.

[Spikey M]

I don't see how allowing Russian aggression is an acceptable outcome considering their acts on the battlefield.

Well, we managed it every other time.

[Kikó]

Which time was that? Syria?

[Spikey M]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

Take your pick of any of them after 1991. My favourite is Crimea though. Which didn't matter to the same politicians less than 10 years ago.

Outside of Russia, there's also the various poor people the Saudis are killing with our supplies.

Our government don't care about the evil of Putin. Whatever is going on here, it isn't that.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Evil is a subjective judgement. They care about expansion of our enemies / weakening of our allies in the region. Russia are our enemies and have been on a constant basis since 1922 with a short interlude 1941-45.

[Don]

"Heroic gestures may be satisfying. They are not helpful."

Read Chomsky's thoughts on the war if you're still thinking pushing weaponry into Ukraine and banning Russia from Eurovision makes you the hero that will bring about peace and prosperity.

[Lewis]

The Americans reaffirmed their commitment to not changing Taiwan's status last night. Obviously the Chinese aren't bad guys.

[Shindig]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62338543


The money, part of the Energy Bill Support Scheme, will be paid in six instalments.

Households will see a discount of £66 applied to their energy bills in October and November, and £67 a month from December to March 2023.

I'd rather energy companies didn't vastly overestimate customer usage.

[Spikey M]

Evil is a subjective judgement. They care about expansion of our enemies / weakening of our allies in the region. Russia are our enemies and have been on a constant basis since 1922 with a short interlude 1941-45.

But since the end of the Soviet Union we haven't really given a fuck about them. Not beyond head shaking and condemnation. The oil and blood money still poured in.

I'm not having that this government. Boris- friends with KGB members - Johnsons government, cares about Ukraine to the level that he's forcing millionaire Russians out of their poncey West End House's, forcing the sale of football clubs and reducing half the population to fuel poverty. And all of Europe suddenly gives a fuck to the same degree at the same time. Nah. Not having it.

There is something going on beyond the scenes.

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/WWX7YF/man-holding-a-roll-of-household-aluminum-foil-WWX7YF.jpg

[Kikó]

"Heroic gestures may be satisfying. They are not helpful."

Read Chomsky's thoughts on the war if you're still thinking pushing weaponry into Ukraine and banning Russia from Eurovision makes you the hero that will bring about peace and prosperity.

Chomsky is an idiot.

[Jimmy Floyd]

But since the end of the Soviet Union we haven't really given a fuck about them. Not beyond head shaking and condemnation. The oil and blood money still poured in.

I'm not having that this government. Boris- friends with KGB members - Johnsons government, cares about Ukraine to the level that he's forcing millionaire Russians out of their poncey West End House's, forcing the sale of football clubs and reducing half the population to fuel poverty. And all of Europe suddenly gives a fuck to the same degree at the same time. Nah. Not having it.

It's not about giving a fuck morally, it's about strategic interests at home and abroad. If the British government, in a democracy, came out and said 'Putin is a great guy, we support u til the end x' they would be out of office within days. Similarly, Russia invading Ukraine is bad news for us and our allies on all sorts of levels, so it's in our interests to support the Ukrainians.

[Yevrah]

Latest weaponry delivered to Ukraine is helping them push Russian forces back and reduce the artillery dominance they were having in occupied areas. It's going to be a long war but I don't see how allowing Russian aggression is an acceptable outcome considering their acts on the battlefield.

We are allowing it though, these weapons aren’t stopping their aggression but instead, prolonging it.

The simplicity with which this whole thing has been boiled down to is staggering. Russia = bad (as Spikey said, we’ve not really given a shit about this before), Us = good (I mean, seriously, where’s my roflcopter) and Ukraine = heroes (despite the country being levelled and thousands being led to their deaths fighting a war they can’t possibly win).

There are no good realistic outcomes in this situation, none, so surely the best thing to do would be to take the pragmatic approach and encourage talks rather than prop the whole shit show up for as long as possible.

[Yevrah]

It's not about giving a fuck morally, it's about strategic interests at home and abroad. If the British government, in a democracy, came out and said 'Putin is a great guy, we support u til the end x' they would be out of office within days. Similarly, Russia invading Ukraine is bad news for us and our allies on all sorts of levels, so it's in our interests to support the Ukrainians.

How is it in OUR interests to support Ukraine? And if we actually wanted to support them the time to do it was years ago by letting them into the various boys clubs that would have protected them against an invasion. We didn’t, for pretty obvious reasons, yet here we are anyway.

[Yevrah]

Oh and I’m pretty sure Boris’ motivations began and ended with him trying to seize some kind of Churchill moment. It’ll be interesting to see what a serious leader does with the situation, should we ever get one.

[Spikey M]

It's not about giving a fuck morally, it's about strategic interests at home and abroad. If the British government, in a democracy, came out and said 'Putin is a great guy, we support u til the end x' they would be out of office within days. Similarly, Russia invading Ukraine is bad news for us and our allies on all sorts of levels, so it's in our interests to support the Ukrainians.

Nobody expects him to say Putin is a good guy. The question is why the escalation from the head shaking at the Crimean invasion to a proxy war when it's the Donbas? It's the same region and the same people.

The escalation makes no real sense. Or is the Donbas just the new Poland?

[Boydy]

How is it in OUR interests to support Ukraine? And if we actually wanted to support them the time to do it was years ago by letting them into the various boys clubs that would have protected them against an invasion. We didn’t, for pretty obvious reasons, yet here we are anyway.
Supporting Ukraine weakens Russia, I guess. Maybe a long drawn out conflict (think the Soviet Union in Afghanistan) is the aim.

[Ben]

We need someone who isn't interested in saving face with their war-thirsty populations to initiate it. Whoever backs down first and offers a negotiating table over a missile will be hounded out of their own office. Which is ridiculous but that's where we're at for now, although I'm sure rolling blackouts and freezing homes will shift that stance soon enough.

[Yevrah]

Supporting Ukraine weakens Russia, I guess. Maybe a long drawn out conflict (think the Soviet Union in Afghanistan) is the aim.

But weakens them to what end? What will weakening them not allow them to do that they would have realistically done before? They’re never going to attack anyone in the boys clubs as they’d be wiped off the map if they did.

And perhaps crucially, we’re also being weakened as well and unlike Russians, we’re really not that good at dealing with it. You can bet your fucking arse no one with a Ushanka is upset about a cost of living crisis.

[Jimmy Floyd]

How is it in OUR interests to support Ukraine? And if we actually wanted to support them the time to do it was years ago by letting them into the various boys clubs that would have protected them against an invasion. We didn’t, for pretty obvious reasons, yet here we are anyway.

Because Ukraine is a democracy that broadly embraces the same liberal/democratic/free market/post-Christian outlook that we do, and it is in our interests, both politically and for business and for everything else, for there to be as many of those as possible and as few kleptocratic authoritarian human rights cess pools as possible (also there are obvious military stakes in play, but Lewis knows a lot more about that than me). Now, obviously there are limits to how much intervention you are willing to make in order to further those interests. Tony Blair was bang up for intervening everywhere. With Ukraine, it's taken until a full-blown invasion, but that's realpolitik for you.

Eventually, I imagine it will become worth us saving western Ukraine as the above democracy and chucking eastern Ukraine to the wolves.

And from our point of view, yes, we are the good guys. If that isn't the starting point then we may as well blow ourselves up and save Vlad the trouble.

[Yevrah]

Nobody expects him to say Putin is a good guy. The question is why the escalation from the head shaking at the Crimean invasion to a proxy war when it's the Donbas? It's the same region and the same people.

The escalation makes no real sense. Or is the Donbas just the new Poland?

Indeed. This makes no sense either. If it genuinely is the new Poland we should be going to actual war with Putin now, but nobody really believes it is as nobody can surely believe that if we allow him to take Ukraine he’ll keep moving West. Russia would be Nuked off the map if that ever happened.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You have to remember that Putin started this war with an abortive attempt to blitzkrieg Kiev and enact immediate regime change, it wasn't all the slow trudge in the Donbass. That's why it all changed.

[Yevrah]

Because Ukraine is a democracy that broadly embraces the same liberal/democratic/free market/post-Christian outlook that we do

This is another absolute fight of fancy. It's in Eastern Europe, it's going to be an absolute backward racist shithole. I appreciate it's a bit rich of Russia to accuse them of facism, but the idea that it's a progressive, liberal and tolerant society is convenient at best.

And this clearly isn't in our business interests, not even remotely.

[Yevrah]

You have to remember that Putin started this war with an abortive attempt to blitzkrieg Kiev and enact immediate regime change, it wasn't all the slow trudge in the Donbass. That's why it all changed.

Isn't that the way almost every war has been started by the West since the original Top Gun was made?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Isn't that the way almost every war has been started by the West since the original Top Gun was made?

It's not a point of moral equivalence, I'm saying that's why the reaction was different to Crimea.

Honestly people need to stop thinking about morality and start thinking about strategic interests. The stronger Russia is, the worse news it is for western Europe. Obviously this escaped particularly the Germans over the last 20 years, which is why they are now in an even bigger mess than we are.

[Lewis]

America had a decade or so as the sole superpower and got high on its own farts thinking that it could do whatever it wanted (and all of the satellites went along with it). They got backed off over Georgia, Russia wasn't overly arsed about the Baltic and Kosovo; but Ukraine they care about, so something was always going to happen. That should have seen the West back off, because they care more and will fight for it, but that would have meant getting some fresh air and deciding what really mattered, which the fart-sniffers are as pathologically incapable of doing as any religious maniac.

[niko_cee]

As to the 'who's interests are being served here?' surely it is in the interests of the US to have a prolonged proxy war with Russia which allows them to significantly degrade all aspects of their society, and if a few European countries struggle for gas why do they give a fuck? They can sell them the gas/oil if necessary. And US strategic interest = the interests of the west so everyone else is going to have to suck it up. What's the alternative?

Unwinding European reliance on Russian energy should happen anyway (or perhaps should never have happened). Maybe it'll even be good for the environment.

[Lewis]

A strong Russia only 'threatens' the West insofar as it foils our plans to let al-Qaeda run Syria and the like, which is to say that it doesn't actually threaten us. Especially since its strength allows it to pursue its own ends, rather than simply team up with China, which is what its weakening will encourage. It's proper whack-a-mole short-termist thinking.

[Yevrah]

It's not a point of moral equivalence, I'm saying that's why the reaction was different to Crimea.

Honestly people need to stop thinking about morality and start thinking about strategic interests. The stronger Russia is, the worse news it is for western Europe. Obviously this escaped particularly the Germans over the last 20 years, which is why they are now in an even bigger mess than we are.

I don't particularly see how Russia taking bits of Ukraine (which they've already done anyway and we didn't care) makes them stronger to a point of concern. Fair enough, get their dodgy money out, but we've done that as best we can, so time to move on now.

[Lofty]

This is another absolute fight of fancy. It's in Eastern Europe, it's going to be an absolute backward racist shithole. I appreciate it's a bit rich of Russia to accuse them of facism, but the idea that it's a progressive, liberal and tolerant society is convenient at best.

And this clearly isn't in our business interests, not even remotely.

Yeah didn't they badge up their equivalent of Britain First as police deputies a few years ago?

[Lewis]

The Ukrainian neo-Nazis are a weird bunch. They are clearly a nasty bunch of cretins, but more common-or-garden Eastern European racists than serious Adolf Hitler appreciators. I think they just play as Nazis because they think it offends the Russians, like edgy Scottish separatists soyfacing it to IRA things, except without providing comedy reasons to get invaded.

[Bernanke]

1552886838926479360

[Magic]

See the Russians are castrating Ukrainian Pow. Ouch.

[Lewis]

I could have done without seeing that. A Mongol sniper wearing a bush hat. Probably been waiting his entire life for it.

[Magic]

Same. It's haunting me.

[Bernanke]

This Saky airfield strike is stunning. :drool: A billion dollars in Russian aircraft gone in 30 seconds.

[John Arne]

I had a look on Google, and it looked pretty busy (presumably this was pre-War).

https://gyazo.com/4078a9af16cf0ec37951a8f5d5bff7a8.jpeg

[niko_cee]

An expensive cigarette break.

[Bernanke]

I had a look on Google, and it looked pretty busy (presumably this was pre-War).

https://gyazo.com/4078a9af16cf0ec37951a8f5d5bff7a8.jpeg

Most analysis seems to put it at about 10-12 aircraft taken out.

[niko_cee]

So is this HIMAR related, sabotage related, or do the Russians just keep piles of munitions under their warplanes?

[niko_cee]

Sounds like another airfield [this time in Belarus] has been experiencing technical difficulties.

[Lewis]

You get the feeling that the Ukrainians are trying to escalate things/get some sort of 'victory' before Europe freezes itself sick of them, along with weirdly throwing everything into Kherson when they ought to be filling the rest of Donetsk.

[niko_cee]

They seem to be dancing round the edges of claiming any responsibility for these 'accidents' [although why I have no idea, presumably those in the know know exactly what is going on here]. The Yanks aren't going to stop sending them these weapons even if the Germans and Italians manage to end up on the wrong side of yet another world war.

[Ben]

You get the feeling that the Ukrainians are trying to escalate things/get some sort of 'victory' before Europe freezes itself sick of them, along with weirdly throwing everything into Kherson when they ought to be filling the rest of Donetsk.

Taking back Kherson is far more achievable (and logical from an ethnic point of view).

[Lewis]

The Russians weren't advancing out of it, and then they're still sat on the western bank of the river if they retake it, which forms a nice natural new border. It's a daft political move.

[Kikó]

Looks like more huge airstrikes by Ukraine tonight on deeply held Russian territories. It's been a pretty impressive few days


1560353242202218498?t=DF93eZw2yoaEl-ucNjHzOw&s=19

[Ben]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62750584

[phonics]

Nothing more dangerous than a Russian balcony.

[Bernanke]

Russian lines are collapsing all over the place. This starts to sound more and more like when they were chased away from Kyiv.

[Bernanke]

1568538887286398976

Spectacular honestly.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Wasn't that taken quite early in the piece? Have the Russian supplies dried up or something?

[niko_cee]

Aren't the Ukrainians getting quite close to a strategic railway that Russia heavily relies on for re-supply?

[Bernanke]

Aren't the Ukrainians getting quite close to a strategic railway that Russia heavily relies on for re-supply?



Yep, Kupyansk. They supposedly are already in the city, and without it everything Russia has southish of Kharkiv is toast.

[Lewis]

It is bad for Russia, but Ukraine has chucked its best [remaining] units at the weakest part of the Russian front because their Kherson operation has floundered, so it hardly screams decisive strategic victory for Ukraine either.

[Bernanke]

It is bad for Russia, but Ukraine has chucked its best [remaining] units at the weakest part of the Russian front because their Kherson operation has floundered, so it hardly screams decisive strategic victory for Ukraine either.

"Floundered"? You sure about that?

1568562901698371584

It's unconfirmed of course, but given the quality the Russians have demonstrated so far, we'll see what gets announced in the coming days.

[Lewis]

They were being hammered there as of a couple of days ago. It was weird that they even had to re-launch the offensive, seeing as, according to the Ukrainians, the August phase of it resulted in a thousand dead Russians, only twenty Ukrainian wounded, and no ground gained.

[Magic]

Kyiv nuked before Christmas.

[Lewis]

Not a great time to be having to sanction Azerbaijan into the ground for attacking its neighbour, what with the whopping gas deal they signed with the EU a couple of months ago coming into play, but what else can you do in these situations?

[Ben]

It seems the EU and Russia are both on Armenia's side here, but Russia (the only country who can probably do anything about it) won't step in at the current time for obvious reasons. Turkey will probably keep arming Azerbaijan to keep it going.

[Spikey M]

We're actually going to end up with WW3 aren't we?

[Kikó]

No.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Putin on the ropes I reckon.

[Spikey M]

No.

We have heard that from Germany before.

[Ben]

The Germans are bricking it. Granted it's a small sample size but from the 15-20 that I know, they're all nervous as fuck.

[Kikó]

Bricking it from what?

[Spikey M]

Female bosses.

[Kikó]

We're actually going to end up with WW3 aren't we?

[Jimmy Floyd]

WW3 isn't in anyone's interests, unless the Chinese want to depopulate I suppose.

[Ben]

Bricking it from what?
You just answered your own question.


We're actually going to end up with WW3 aren't we?

[Kikó]

Oh really. I've not met anyone yet who is even talked about it as their major concern. Admittedly it's a similarly small sample but it doesn't seem to be talked about by anyone around me in Germany.

[Ben]

One German fella I work with is actually retiring and fucking off into the wilderness, citing the "Russia situation" as one of his main concerns. Although he looks and acts like Ted Kaczynski so he's not the best indicator of overall feeling. But the dozen or so others that have spoken up are far more worried than we seem to be; maybe it's an expat thing.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Presumably it's because they're massively exposed to Russia in a way that we aren't.

[Serj]

From what I gather around here, most people are more worried about their energy bills through the winter rather than any large-scale conflict. It still seems too abstract and remote to register as anything that could drag "us" into it.

[Spikey M]

If China fancy Taiwan their time is now. That then equals three wars in Eurasia each with overlapping interests. It may not be in the wests interest to have a world war, but I'm not sure the same can be said for them. Putin wants the USSR back. All of it. China want whatever they want and I won't pretend to understand what Azerbaijan want, but, yeah, it's not helpful right now.

It all depends on how much America will put up with.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I want the US eastern seaboard and the Pas-de-Calais back into His Majesty's overseas possessions, but it's not going to happen. Ditto Putin's hopes and dreams.

[Spikey M]

Reality does not appear to matter too much to Putin.

[niko_cee]

Sounds like everything still going just as planned for Vlad & Co.

Reckon he's got the minutemen to actually bring about nuclear Armageddon or is the order going to be lost in the chain of command [again?]? At least his rhetoric seems to have turned away from the UK a bit, although Brussels getting nuked probably not ideal.

[Shindig]

We had someone on state TV calling for the bombing of the Queen's funeral.

[Don]

Very interesting developments. Hopefully some nuclear fun on the horizon.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Both he and the nation of Russia at large are absolutely useless.

[Yevrah]

I dunno, he seems to have done a pretty good job of thoroughly fucking the West's way of life, which must feature somewhere on his to do list.

[Yevrah]

Oh and if he were to nuke Ukraine, how do people see the aftermath panning out?

[niko_cee]

To the extent that that is a thing [which, let's be honest, it isn't, life is pretty much the same] then it is no more down to the venerable chrome dome in the Kremlin than it is to the West's general approach to things and perhaps particularly the [German led] attempts at rapprochement with the Russian Federation these past 20 years or whatever it has been, but, you know, carry on.

[niko_cee]

Oh and if he were to nuke Ukraine, how do people see the aftermath panning out?

Badly.

[Yevrah]

Is it enough for the West to nuke Russia? I'm not convinced.

[Pen]

Oh and if he were to nuke Ukraine, how do people see the aftermath panning out?
According to the plan™️

[Pen]

Is it enough for the West to nuke Russia? I'm not convinced.

They also aren’t going to nuke anyone.

[Yevrah]

You guys are very boring when it comes to hypotheticals.

[Kikó]

I dunno, he seems to have done a pretty good job of thoroughly fucking the West's way of life, which must feature somewhere on his to do list.

Has he?

[Ben]

Bit of a leap here fellas.

Mobilisation is probably because they're about to annex Kherson, Zaporizhzhia etc. in sham referendums and need some block heads with guns to maintain order. These places are far more Ukrainian than the Russian-heavy cities they previously nicked so no doubt there'll be a lot of internal resistance to the results.

[Kikó]

Mobilisation doesn't resolve any of their issues which is they can't actually repel HIMARs which means their supply lines are being disrupted and their forward lines being pushed back.

The issue isn't going to be solved by throwing more (poorly trained) soldiers at it.

[Ben]

I'm not trying to justify it. I just think that's their main reason for doing it.

As Jimmy said, they're quite useless considering.

[Lewis]

They can shoot down HIMARS rockets, which is why most of them were being directed into the softer sectors of the front to begin with. The problem is destroying the launchers. This [partial] mobilisation should have been done months ago because they need more men, and not because they have had fifty thousand killed or whatever the pretend number is today. They got zerg rushed by Ukraine the other week, which wouldn't have happened with even badly trained numbers in position, which they will be able to be once it all gets re-designated as Russian territory.

[Lewis]

I dunno, he seems to have done a pretty good job of thoroughly fucking the West's way of life, which must feature somewhere on his to do list.

1572263558863327235

[Yevrah]

Has he?

When the cumulative effect of all this bites, he most certainly will have, even if only temporarily. But I can’t see how it won’t be carnage when it does.

[Disco]

Threatening to nuke your neighbours is proper tinpot dictator stuff, Putin trying to do Juche would be pretty lol.

[Kikó]

1573592235324620800?t=dvSudT0Nl23dt2yLSXCLiQ&s=19

Good god.

[Don]

Hope the Ukranian maggots taking bullets from those have their tetanus injections.

[Spikey M]

I don't know why they don't just skip to the part where they call up every man under 50 and send them in with breadknives. Quantity over quality has been the go to Russian strategy for atleast 100 years now.

[Waffdon]

1573592235324620800?t=dvSudT0Nl23dt2yLSXCLiQ&s=19

Good god.

Lewis will be due to come in here any moment now to say this is normal

[Giggles]

Is it the rust or is there something else wrong with them I’m missing? I wouldn’t have the first clue about firearms. Not near as much as all the Twitter experts anyway.

[Bernanke]

The mobilization videos coming out are truly something. Dudes with Mosins, groups of 40 year olds that look like 60 and are 5 vodka bottles in when being collected, recruitment staff that can't keep anyone's attention for even a second.

I imagine there's gonna be a lot of "accidents" happening to Russian unit leaders over the coming months.

[7om]

Is it the rust or is there something else wrong with them I’m missing? I wouldn’t have the first clue about firearms. Not near as much as all the Twitter experts anyway.

Yeah I don’t really get it. It’s a video of a gun on the floor. I feel like I’m missing something.

[Kikó]

AKM usually aren't rusted up from lack of maintenance.

[Don]

Fam this is proper war, not some gammom fancy dress excuse for cleaning guns.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I fought on D-Day (Juno Beach) and my AK47 never rusted despite the 16 hour underwater journey to get there. I call bullshit.

[Spikey M]

I'm no gun expert either, but I imagine anything with moving parts reacts similarly to being covered it rust: poorly.

[Pepe]

If it's surface rust then it is no big deal.

The underside of many cars has plenty of brown spots and they run just fine for years.

[Manc]

It's all part of the plan. Move along.

[Disco]

Fake news, those are assault rifles not machine guns. :dc:

[Ben]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63021117

[Disco]

They ran out of mockbas in his size.

[Bernanke]

1573776034339635206

4 in one day is not sustainable, especially losing the pilots as well.

[Don]

Why do the dirty Ukranians play out the war like this with this tone? Do they need the clicks or are they seeking to push Russians for worse outcomes.

[Lewis]

I find the tone of it all a bit sinister. The official accounts obviously have to twerk for their primary audience of retards, but the responders are all absolute freaks. The sort of people who would normally have a panic attack if they heard a bit of casual racism, but they've been told they can have this little xenophobic moment, and they want to be part of something, so we end up with Radio Rwanda.

[Kikó]

They're playing the information war and know it embarrasses Russia. It's effective.

[Lewis]

Remember when Russia was amazing at information warfare, deciding all of those elections and poisoning politics the world over? Then it just became shit and lame overnight as soon as Western liberals needed it to be. Weird.

[Yevrah]

As if Russia give a shit about being embarrassed. The Western lense with which this whole thing has been looked through since day 1 is, well, you'd have thought we'd have learnt by now.

[Yevrah]

Remember when Russia was amazing at information warfare, deciding all of those elections and poisoning politics the world over? Then it just became shit and lame overnight as soon as Western liberals needed it to be. Weird.

:D And for as absolutely dreadful as they're supposed to be, we're now six months in, the casualties must be horrific (on both sides) and it's showing no signs of stopping, so their uselessness isn't particularly amounting to anything that's going to end this anytime soon. Is this another 'winning the argument' being the most important thing, thing?

[Don]

So is the logic that embarrassement incites resignation? :cab:

[Lewis]

Russian uselessness is an odd propaganda device. What do people think has happened to all the stuff we've given Ukraine? Why are they constantly asking for more? If they have really killed a quarter of the entire Russian invasion force (and therefore wounded at least as many again), whilst claiming to have only lost ten thousand of their own, why haven't they won yet? Are they even trying? I'm not paying double electric bills for slackers.

[Bam]

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1573662086927884288

[Kikó]

Remember when Russia was amazing at information warfare, deciding all of those elections and poisoning politics the world over? Then it just became shit and lame overnight as soon as Western liberals needed it to be. Weird.

Both things can be true to differing degrees. The information war is still winning you over for example as you remain a fully committed Putin apologist.

[Spikey M]

The right becoming Pro-Russia is properly lol.

[Lewis]

I'm pro-realism. Eastern Ukraine is irrelevant to this country, and I've yet to hear a sensible argument for impoverishing ourselves over it.

[Spikey M]

I am more or less with you on that, but I'm not prepared to pretend Russia are anything but a set of useless cunts.

[Ben]

Bar Kherson, the front lines basically divide the majority-Ukrainian and majority-Russian ethnic towns now. Just shake hands and call it off.

[Bernanke]

Bar Kherson, the front lines basically divide the majority-Ukrainian and majority-Russian ethnic towns now. Just shake hands and call it off.

Why should concentrations of ethnicity determine which parts of their country Ukraine has to give up by force? You good with the forced deportations and other genocidal practices in Mariupol?

[Ben]

Not at all. But let self-determination come into it. Is it really worth fighting to take back Luhansk and Donetsk if most of them want to be Russia? We all know it’s going to end with concessions, it’s just a matter of when.

Russia going to court for war crimes is a completely separate issue.

[niko_cee]

Pretty lol to be talking of self-determination in the face of a totalitarian state.

[Ben]

What's the other outcome? Ukraine are never going to take back 100% of their territory so when comes the point that everyone involved stops pouring resources into it?

[Shindig]

Edward Snowdon's just got his citizenship. Get in that front line, mate.