News of the day

[Raoul Duke]

Good luck finding this thing (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-64429375)

If I remember correctly from my GCSE Science, Caesium explodes if it comes into contact with water as well. Probably for the best it's in Australia

[Spikey M]

What happens if it's exposed to Kangaroo piss?

[Disco]

Not quite the same sort of caesium, this is the less fun sort that just gives you cancer. Or a spider finds it and we have to glass the entire continent.

[niko_cee]

:D

The snakes are radioactive as well now cobber.

[niko_cee]

Meanwhile, this story (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-64429565) just gets weirder the further you scroll down, and then you hit the image of the offending artist.

[Lofty]

That lad has been banging the arse off all the old celeb birds too apparently. Yung Gravy indeed.

[niko_cee]

He looks like a not young David Spade/Blades of Glory crossover.

[Giggles]

The article never explained how he got under the jacks. Surely they don’t leave a gap?

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FngrFn1WIAEYqgb?format=jpg&name=large

Splendid stuff.

[Spikey M]

I for one completely buy this as a reason for him not being a nonce. He can't even sweat ffs.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FngrFn1WIAEYqgb?format=jpg&name=large

Splendid stuff.

https://i.imgur.com/ttoSMNy.png

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

:D

[Ben]

I honestly had to check today’s papers to see if that is actually genuine. The gall on those bastards.

[Ian]

This is why there's so little point satirising these people, I saw that last night and assumed it was a joke.

[Don]

Not fully legitimate yet but reports I'm seeing indicate Israel have hit a number of targets within Iran as well as Iranian targets in Syria. Buckle up, boys :drool:

[Yevrah]

Another day, another trans Woman likely to be kept out of a Women's prison.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64438457

The logic around all this, if there ever was any in the first place, is starting to fall apart.

[Lewis]

The party line response is that this doesn't blow the 'logic' of it all up, because nobody who rapes a woman should be in prison with women. Okay. Presumably then you need special Rapist Prisons, but then you can't put male and female rapists together, so you will need separate Rapist Prisons for men and women, and...

[Yevrah]

Indeed and the subject of that article, while a violent scumbag, isn't even a rapist.

How people who've run mad with this can see that it undermines Women's rights in prisons, but can't see at all that it will elsewhere, is absolutely beyond me.

[SincereTheRebel]

:lol:

[Spikey M]

Are we going to send men that rape men to womens prisons? Can't have men that rape men locked up with men, after all. What about women that rape women? What about equal opportunity rapists.

I'm going to start investing in prison building companies.

[Giggles]

I’m always surprised that you pander to all this bollocks so much over there. Of all the places I thought would have some sense.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's flared up because the jockos have brought in new legislation in an attempt to raise the culture war stakes vs England, might have misjudged it this time.

[Lewis]

It's only Stoking the Culture War when you oppose this stuff. The dispassionate, common sense thing to do is to mutilate mentally ill kids and endanger women, and they only want to be left in peace to do so.

[Yevrah]

It's flared up because the jockos have brought in new legislation in an attempt to raise the culture war stakes vs England, might have misjudged it this time.

That was a disgustingly cynical move on Sturgeon’s part and I agree, it may well.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

We've lost the plot but we might be reaching a point where more of the public realise what's going on for the penny to drop for enough of a kick-back.

For me it's pretty unambiguous- if you're male you don't get access to female-only spaces and female sports. Find it hard to believe that there's a chunk of people in the public that view that as bigoted.

[niko_cee]

https://guernseypress.com/news/2023/01/30/pokemon-addict-is-told-gotta-sell-em-all/

Paging Baz

[Spikey M]

That's got to hurt.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I shouldn't be surprised by now, but reading this kind of article is such a bizarre experience if you're at all rooted in the real world, as I like to hope that I am: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-64450851

This passage in particular sums it all up:


Most industry pundits agree that Riseborough gives a strong and memorable performance in To Leslie, but some worry that her best actress nomination came at the expense of black actresses.

Viola Davis was thought to be in the running for The Woman King. But the omission of Danielle Deadwyler, who gives an outstanding performance in Till - a film about the 1955 lynching of 14-year-old Emmett Till in Mississippi - was hardest thing to stomach for many.

Till director Chinonye Chukwu accused the Academy of "unabashed misogyny towards Black women", while awards watchers expressed dismay that Deadwyler had been overlooked.

[Yevrah]

That unabashed misogyny line is a corker. I wonder if these people realise they're actually doing damage to race relations with this nonsense?

[niko_cee]

I was reading the name of that film as 'Toe' Leslie [as was the way I read To Madeira] for longer than I really ought to have been.

[Yevrah]

I was reading the name of that film as 'Toe' Leslie [as was the way I read To Madeira] for longer than I really ought to have been.

:D Likewise.

[Lofty]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64454173

Quelle surprise.

[Shindig]

I bet it was Noel Edmonds.

[Pepe]

Probably Baz.

[Spikey M]

I shouldn't be surprised by now, but reading this kind of article is such a bizarre experience if you're at all rooted in the real world, as I like to hope that I am: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-64450851

This passage in particular sums it all up:

It's like they actually want people to be more racist.

[Manc]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/30/climate-crisis-global-heating-artificial-intelligence

Phwoar.

[Spikey M]

Good shit. We bought a 10 foot paddling pool in the January sales and the kids are already hassling me to get it out of the shed.

[Yevrah]

The party line response is that this doesn't blow the 'logic' of it all up, because nobody who rapes a woman should be in prison with women. Okay. Presumably then you need special Rapist Prisons, but then you can't put male and female rapists together, so you will need separate Rapist Prisons for men and women, and...

On that, this is incredible:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fSEVUMGIKY

[Spikey M]

So fucking transparent :D

[Yevrah]

Slightly more of the lead in on this one, which I think makes it all the more glorious.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E87Jcx_VOBs

[Lewis]

If you ever needed proof that most mainstream supporters of this have never actually given it any thought beyond going with the fashionable view. Why it became the fashionable view is the real question, and I am genuinely confused by its rate of success.

[phonics]

I think that both sides of this culture war taking up 99% of the time for not even 1% of the population is absolutely insane.

[niko_cee]

One for Spikey here (https://uk.yahoo.com/news/man-punched-paramedic-magistrate-mug-court-beer-084605611.html)

[Spikey M]

:D

Some place, Shoebury. :drool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

If you ever needed proof that most mainstream supporters of this have never actually given it any thought beyond going with the fashionable view. Why it became the fashionable view is the real question, and I am genuinely confused by its rate of success.

Promotion of minority rights is a cornerstone of everything in the post cold war West. It's one of the things that (we contend) makes us superior to a Putin or a Xi regime. It just so happens that with some minorities (gypsies being another one) life is more complicated than one would like it to be.

Rosa Parks mate.

[Lofty]

The most toothless quote left until the end 'we have asked Facebook to take the video down'. I imagine if you or I did that in caourt we'd be raped with a custodial sentence.

[Spikey M]

I think it's more to do with this "Trans women are REAL women" stuff. Which, you know, they just aren't. Then they try to rebrand 99.98% of women (the ones with vaginas) as cis-women or "people with ovaries", brand terms like "pregnant woman" transphobic and start taking every woman's world record in existence.

The bullshit had just reached critical mass and people have had enough of it. It's a complete own goal too, because they're increasing "transphobia", not reducing it.

[Pepe]

Anything that is done based on Social Justice tenets always manages to achieve the exact opposite of what their alleged goals are. It really is incredible to see.

[Ben]

It's all about distraction. The country is going to the dogs with recession looming and Government more bent than ever and here we are arguing about a Scottish criminal going to this prison or that.

[Yevrah]

I've just seen Burberry's latest advert. Fuhuhuck me.

[niko_cee]

That the one with all the hugging?


Good luck finding this thing (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-64429375)

Stone the crows cobber, they only went and bloody found it. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-64481317)

[niko_cee]

Is it me or are there seemingly more deaths from people being attacked by dogs these days? Seem to be stories about it happening almost all the time.

[Spikey M]

Probably all the immigrant dogs people keep bringing over.

Are we allowed to be racist about dogs?

[niko_cee]

Pretty sure all those Romanian rescue dogs and what have you are all part of a long con scam by vets/pet insurers, as they invariably need loads of ridiculously costly treatment soon after being rescued.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Is it me or are there seemingly more deaths from people being attacked by dogs these days? Seem to be stories about it happening almost all the time.

There are just more dogs about full stop, I think, and a certain percentage of those are the scummy dangerous breeds that should probably be genocided.

Every second moron seems to have a dog and they are far too emotive about them so that probably translates into crap rearing/safety. Any good dog trainer will tell you that dogs need to be treated like irrelevant scum, not like human beings.

[Lofty]

There was a panorama report recently which essentially boiled down to twats breeding more and more exaggerated breeds like Cane Corso/XL Bully aka the horrible chav ones because profit. There's a couple round here but I have a hefty metal torch on me whenever I walk mine that I'm quite confident would dispatch one of the cunts if needed.

[Spikey M]

Any ideas, Giggles? (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11700403/Sportsman-arrested-Ireland-suspected-passing-police-intel-corrupt-cops-gangs.html?ito=push-notification&ci=yucpLlV2kH&cri=GtL-h-4b3M&si=avDRAZsBN0Zk&xi=d133c45f-b498-4de3-a728-373b335ae8e4&ai=11700403)

The obvious p(r)ick is Connor McGregor.

Edit: or not. Not old enough.

[Ben]

Matt Doherty.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I was going to pick Crafty Ken Dockitty but he's 53 now.

Probably a hurler or something.

[niko_cee]

Rugby and Boxing would be the only sports where you could be based in Ireland and pass the mail's 'well known sportsman' test, surely (and I'm not sure about boxing, is that more of a Northern Ireland thing?). I know its in their nature to mislead, but if it's some figure in the world of Irish Sports then you'd have to wonder why they'd be bothering to run the story.

So, in the spirit of speculation, how old is Brian O'Driscoll?

[Ben]

Could be horse racing. Naas and Punchestown are in that area.

[phonics]

Yeah I figured it was Rugby being based in Leinster.

[Waffdon]

Ruby Walsh is my guess

[niko_cee]

Would organised crime and horse racing really be a story?

[Waffdon]

Horse racing is the most corrupt sport going so maybe.

[niko_cee]

Transnational crime group is clearly going to be Kinahan, isn't it?

"County Kildare, eastern Ireland" :harold: is Giggles' neck of the woods, if memory serves.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Horse racing is the most corrupt sport going so maybe.

Yeah but it's so corrupt which means it isn't news worthy. Might as well print that the sky is blue.

[niko_cee]

I see the latest round of cancellations [well, probably not that 'latest', but news to me] sees Delilah striken from the Welsh rugby songbook.

:lol:

Is there any racist or sexist angle we can establish for Sweet Caroline?

[Lewis]

Just say it's sung from a tranny's perspective and then it's alright.

[Giggles]

What was the age? With him being in court in Kildare and being involved in dodge then most likely horse racing.

[Spikey M]

Just says "in his forties".

[Yevrah]

I think it's more to do with this "Trans women are REAL women" stuff. Which, you know, they just aren't. Then they try to rebrand 99.98% of women (the ones with vaginas) as cis-women or "people with ovaries", brand terms like "pregnant woman" transphobic and start taking every woman's world record in existence.

The bullshit had just reached critical mass and people have had enough of it. It's a complete own goal too, because they're increasing "transphobia", not reducing it.

Completely this.

For the sort of cunt who would be horrible to a trans person they're using the levels of nonsense we've waded into on this as a cover to do so and for everyone else, they're thoroughly sick of it. To the point where people who would have been happy to go along with a trans woman being a woman no longer are as that somehow wasn't enough and they've thought "well I'll fuck all of it off then".

As Phonics highlights, it's impossible to escape it now. Everywhere you look someone is spouting absolute horseshit and expecting it to go unchallenged, which would be fine if it was an actual trans person doing so as at least they're living through it, but it never seems to be.

[phonics]

I also said the otherside laps it up so they don't have to talk about stuff that actually matters.

[Yevrah]

I also said the otherside laps it up so they don't have to talk about stuff that actually matters.

I agree. It's tragic that neither side realise or at least focus on what actually matters.

[Giggles]

Sports ‘star’ Anthony Stokes apparently.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

They don't get much bigger.

[phonics]

Makes sense he was at some IRA blokes funeral when he was at Celtic and got done for gambling.

[Spikey M]

>6 pallbearers @Evens.

[randomlegend]

Any ideas, Giggles? (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11700403/Sportsman-arrested-Ireland-suspected-passing-police-intel-corrupt-cops-gangs.html?ito=push-notification&ci=yucpLlV2kH&cri=GtL-h-4b3M&si=avDRAZsBN0Zk&xi=d133c45f-b498-4de3-a728-373b335ae8e4&ai=11700403)

The obvious p(r)ick is Connor McGregor.

Edit: or not. Not old enough.

Was there an Irish player in one of Baz's FM games?

[Lewis]

I agree. It's tragic that neither side realise or at least focus on what actually matters.

It would be nice if they built some houses and nuclear plants, but compelling everybody to say that a man in a dress is a woman, and then dealing with everything that follows, does 'matter' as well.

[igor_balis]

I think it's more to do with this "Trans women are REAL women" stuff. Which, you know, they just aren't. Then they try to rebrand 99.98% of women (the ones with vaginas) as cis-women or "people with ovaries", brand terms like "pregnant woman" transphobic and start taking every woman's world record in existence.

The bullshit had just reached critical mass and people have had enough of it. It's a complete own goal too, because they're increasing "transphobia", not reducing it.

that bolded bit is exaggerated either through malice or ignorance, in the same way nobody ever actually banned saying Christmas. don't be an idiot.

[Spikey M]

Exaggeration for effect lad. Don't be a fanny.

[Yevrah]

It's not even that exaggerated, well not the first bit anyway. "Women who menstruate" was a thing, no? I mean, come on.

[niko_cee]

I think it was people who menstruate.

[Yevrah]

Ah yeah, was "Women who menstruate" deemed transphobic?

[niko_cee]

It was probably viewed as worse than Hitler JK Rowling TERFism.

[niko_cee]

Meanwhile the Aussies aren't putting KC3 on their money [not that his mum featured that heavily on it].

Something about the whole 'first nations people' stuff really winds me up. I think it was probably being forced to study it as part of property law. Fuck Mabo, Milirrpum and the Torres Strait Islanders.

[Spikey M]

I find it somewhat baffling that we still have a monarch and hope the Boomers dying off will see an end to it. The Aussies et al buying into it is just inexplicable to me though.

Why would you not want to be a Republic? What do they get out of the monarchy? Atleast the Boomers here can trot out a lazy line about tourism. In Australia? No idea. Maybe it's just convenient to keep them around to blame the abuse of the Aboriginals on them.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Aussie family friends we have (who are probably on the conservative end) absolutely love them, and British things in general. I think it's to do with a mindset of being located really far away from what they see as the glamour nations, and wanting to have something to do with them.

Many Aussies love it when famous Brits/yanks visit Australia as well.

[niko_cee]

There are obviously some tricky circles to square when it comes to casting off the shackles of empire. I mean, Australia, conceptually, is entirely a construct of the British [Empire] and, by extension, the British Monarchy.

[igor_balis]

the point is that while attempts at more "inclusive" language are often a bit embarrassing and clumsy, they're not actually DEMANDING it. exaggerating for effect or otherwise, the way the likes of yev and spikey talk about it makes it sound like this is some serious #thoughtcrime thing where the loony left woke police are going round and actually insisting that people use such language. the reality is that certain organisations and companies unilaterally decided to do so, then terfy people and the right wing press picked up on it and said it was a threat to women or something, and then you lot regurgitate it like it's actually true.

it's exactly the same as companies deciding to use the phrases that avoid the word "Christmas" and the daily mail claiming that you will indeed be locked up in prison for saying your English Christmas.

[Spikey M]

Fascinating stuff mate, but we've moved onto discussing the politics of Monarchy and Empire now, so perhaps you could be a fanny about that instead.

[igor_balis]

nah clearly I haven't got sufficient levels of common sense to join in the TTH middle aged games gone discourse. I'll go and watch a load of feminazi slut gets owned by logic YouTube videos and read the Matt Forde book and hopefully I'll be able to keep up a bit better in future!

[Spikey M]

I'll meet you in the comment section.

[igor_balis]

"...misgendering? pronouns? the world has gone absolutely mad! I have so much respect for JK Rowling, a brilliant author, and now having to put up with all these vile blue haired trolls on twitter..."
"okay sir, but this is a festive market, do you want the toffee apple or not?"
"a WHAT market??"

[niko_cee]

There's your second episode right there yev.

[Jimmy Floyd]

"...misgendering? pronouns? the world has gone absolutely mad! I have so much respect for JK Rowling, a brilliant author, and now having to put up with all these vile blue haired trolls on twitter..."
"okay sir, but this is a festive market, do you want the toffee apple or not?"
"a WHAT market??"

There are certain certainties (great English jimbo, 10/10) that underpin people's sense of security, and one of them is that about 50% of people are men, the rest are women, and which one they are is obvious from appearance and/or name and/or signifiers like 'Mr'. You start unravelling basic stuff like that at a breakneck speed, and don't be surprised when people don't like it.

I mean, how long has it taken for people to get their heads around same sex relationships.

[Spikey M]

"...misgendering? pronouns? the world has gone absolutely mad! I have so much respect for JK Rowling, a brilliant author, and now having to put up with all these vile blue haired trolls on twitter..."
"okay sir, but this is a festive market, do you want the toffee apple or not?"
"a WHAT market??"



:D perfect.

I think the problem is - as ever - that both extremes are ridiculous, and I can assure you that I'm not a Ben Shapiro fan boy. I have no problem with "men in dresses" as Lewis puts it. I can roll with whatever name and pronouns they would like me to use. I don't really understand people that won't, it takes minimal effort. However, it's pointless pretending that there are twat's within the camp speaking absolute bollocks and upsetting people that would otherwise be allies. Balance, lad. Balance.

[igor_balis]

:D perfect.

I think the problem is - as ever - that both extremes are ridiculous, and I can assure you that I'm not a Ben Shapiro fan boy. I have no problem with "men in dresses" as Lewis puts it. I can roll with whatever name and pronouns they would like me to use. I don't really understand people that won't, it takes minimal effort. However, it's pointless pretending that there are twat's within the camp speaking absolute bollocks and upsetting people that would otherwise be allies. Balance, lad. Balance.

yes I do see where you're coming from, and I do acknowledge that you are indeed not a fascist. the problem as I see it is that too often the #discourse acts like this "balance" isn't clearly weighted against trans people. a group of people more discriminated against, marginalised and simply misunderstood than any other in the UK at the moment I'd guess.

there are indeed twats on both sides, but one side are people with actual power and influence (your Rowlings et al), with actual proof of nasty shit they've said, and plenty of space afforded to them to spread their nasty shit (usually involving long columns in national newspapers and interviews on national radio stations where they talk about being silenced, lol), whereas on the Trans Twat side, TTS, it's pretty much always "oh apparently you can't say pregnant woman anymore!", based on some slightly misremembered story in the daily mail about an admittedly cack-handed press release by a company that sells jam or something.

and as is almost always the case, these mentalists on the extreme end of the spectrum are exactly that, and it's just a bit lazy to act like well a few nutters with anime display pictures on twitter who call you evil cis scum if you don't put your pronouns in your bio justifies being all Lib Dem about it?

this kind of "balance" leads to shit like how frequently you see "gender-critical" people who self identify as being left-leaning who will happily team up with actual homophobic, misogynist right -wing politicians and parties, cus they "know what a woman is". if you consider yourself a leftist, and you look at how tiny the trans population is, how much abuse they receive, and then think of all the major issues effecting women and people generally in the world at the moment and think, yeah, all those other things are bad, but I think I'm going to have to vote conservative/campaign alongside a woman who voted against repealing section 28 and opposes abortion....well, you're an idiot.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Away from the culture wars, this one's a bit mysterious: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-64482201

How easy is it to just off yourself and not be found for days in those circumstances?

[Spikey M]

I mostly agree with you. Where I part with your view is the bit about the lunatic fringe being powerless. We started this conversation because a male rapist had started transitioning and was being kept in a female prison, and the Primeminister of Scotland thought that was ok until there were protesters at the door pointing out the dangers of that.

I absolutely take your point on how hard it must be to be openly trans. I think I've said before about the treatment a Trans couple have been receiving from their neighbours at work. It's honestly horrific. But it isn't helped by idiots like Nicola Sturgeon giving the Daily Mail easy headlines. That rapist, even after transitioning, should not be in a woman's prison.

[Ben]

I'll need Nick Ross to introduce a reconstruction of this one. Very strange.

EDIT: out the way you

[Ben]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64489145

Water now going up record amounts.

I know the comments sections are always pish but they're very pro-nationalisation/anti-corporation on a lot of things now, including this. I can't say they used to be this unanimous. Public opinion definitely seems to be shifting (YouGov polls reflecting this too). I suppose Shell announces record profits this morning got them all riled up for this one.

[Ian]

Away from the culture wars, this one's a bit mysterious: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-64482201

How easy is it to just off yourself and not be found for days in those circumstances?

The phone bit is a headscratcher. Leaving it on a work call is reasonable way for your colleagues to not notice you've gone walkabout but if that's part of a premeditated plan why not do that but hide it somewhere too?

Curious.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Public opinion is all very well but to sort all these things out with the population as it is (10 million more people live here now than they did when water was privatised) as well as NHS funding, public sector pay, schools etc people will have to accept enormous hikes in general taxation. I haven't seen that question even put to people, let alone be affirmed.

[Ben]

The rise in tax would in theory be less than the reduction in bills, because you're not supplementing some fat cat extortionate profits.

[Lewis]

Weird how such a simple formula failed every industry it was ever applied to in this country.

[niko_cee]

The missing woman is definitely an odd one, particularly how the police seem to have been briefing from the off that this isn't an abduction situation.

[Jimmy Floyd]

My first guess was she was eloping in a pre-arranged fashion, but that also wouldn't tally with them getting the scuba divers out, as they presumably have access to her phone records and so on.

I don't see how you could lob yourself in the river without leaving a trace.

[niko_cee]

You'd have to be some sort of mentalist to drop your kids at school and then just casually saunter off into another life. Although, actually, thinking about it . . .

[randomlegend]

Public opinion is all very well but to sort all these things out with the population as it is (10 million more people live here now than they did when water was privatised) as well as NHS funding, public sector pay, schools etc people will have to accept enormous hikes in general taxation. I haven't seen that question even put to people, let alone be affirmed.

It would also help if so much money wasn't literally just pissed up the wall by morons/corrupt morons.

[Spikey M]

If you were abandoning your family I think you'd leave the dog at home. I don't think you'd set it free in a field then chuck your phone on the floor.

It's either a major mental health issue that's seen her run off / do herself in or someone has kidnapped / murdered her

[niko_cee]

First thing to obviously check is if there were any MET police officers in the region at the time.

[Spikey M]

The WhatsApp group is currently blowing up.

[Lofty]

Has JK Rowling actually said anything evil? I thought she was annoyed about the 'people who menstruate' thing and then nutters started doxxing her address.

The rapist tranny has definitely, er, had Sturgeon and co's pants down, wont be the last to conveniently transition when the chips are down.

The missing woman I still think her dog has gone into the river, got stuck, she's gone in after and predictably the dog ended up fine whilst she was washed away.

[Yevrah]

the point is that while attempts at more "inclusive" language are often a bit embarrassing and clumsy, they're not actually DEMANDING it. exaggerating for effect or otherwise, the way the likes of yev and spikey talk about it makes it sound like this is some serious #thoughtcrime thing where the loony left woke police are going round and actually insisting that people use such language. the reality is that certain organisations and companies unilaterally decided to do so, then terfy people and the right wing press picked up on it and said it was a threat to women or something, and then you lot regurgitate it like it's actually true.

it's exactly the same as companies deciding to use the phrases that avoid the word "Christmas" and the daily mail claiming that you will indeed be locked up in prison for saying your English Christmas.

No it's not the same at all. People are being cancelled or having huge amounts of abuse thrown at them for daring to disagree with the notions put forward, most of which are absolute nonsense. Nonsense which you appear to have fallen foul of, categorising people as "terfy people" as you have.

And of course, this whole movement brought about a culture where it was ok to mutilate children, hundreds if not thousands of children.

[Pepe]

Has JK Rowling actually said anything evil?

Of course not.

[Yevrah]

yes I do see where you're coming from, and I do acknowledge that you are indeed not a fascist. the problem as I see it is that too often the #discourse acts like this "balance" isn't clearly weighted against trans people. a group of people more discriminated against, marginalised and simply misunderstood than any other in the UK at the moment I'd guess.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that trans people aren't treated in the ways you suggest, but this sure as shit is not the way you fix that.

[Yevrah]

Of course not.

I wondered the same to myself last night, having not particularly cared about what she had been saying or the response to it until recently. So if Igor would like to furnish us with some of these evil comments I'm all ears.

EDIT: Can't see that igor said they were evil comments, so let's go with disagreeable.

[John Arne]

Internet is pretty good and cheap here nowadays, however, we are limited by a certain number of connections to the outside world, 5 to be precise. 4 of which are currently damaged due to shite maintenance and generally fuckery.

https://gyazo.com/06ea381ad4ec11b03be8c2fb354c6463.jpeg

It's like downloading mp3's from Limewire.

[SvN]

The missing woman I still think her dog has gone into the river, got stuck, she's gone in after and predictably the dog ended up fine whilst she was washed away.

The people who found the dog say he was bone dry.

I can't make any sense of it. From the photos, it doesn't look like the sort of place where she could be dead somewhere and just not found.

[niko_cee]

The phone also precludes it being some sort of accident, surely. If you were going to fall in a river you wouldn't leave your phone on a bench.

[Spikey M]

The phone also precludes it being some sort of accident, surely. If you were going to fall in a river you wouldn't leave your phone on a bench.

It says it was in the grass near a bench.

Edit: no it doesn't. That was the dog.

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8640976,-2.8151641,3a,75y,72.79h,85.42t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipN-H64ck-xdWV01fvpoMX_XGL6V_HRg18KF-Rzg!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent. com%2Fp%2FAF1QipN-H64ck-xdWV01fvpoMX_XGL6V_HRg18KF-Rzg%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya2.5660233-ro-0-fo100!7i6912!8i3456

That is roughly the spot where her phone was found, I guess she could have just fallen in the river if the dog ran down the slope, or whatever, but surely there would be a trace of that.

[Ian]

Internet is pretty good and cheap here nowadays, however, we are limited by a certain number of connections to the outside world, 5 to be precise. 4 of which are currently damaged due to shite maintenance and generally fuckery.

https://gyazo.com/06ea381ad4ec11b03be8c2fb354c6463.jpeg

It's like downloading mp3's from Limewire.

In an old job I sometimes had to deal with customers overseas whose service would be affected by undersea cables and you'd get some phenomenally stupid / hopelessly optimistic questions.

"The fault has just been identified as being with an undersea cable."
"Oh right. And is this likely to be fixed by tomorrow?"

Yeah mate it's dead easy to deal with, we'll send Dave down just now.

[John Arne]

Could you send Dave to Nam?

[Disco]

Where's that paedo with a submarine when you need him.

[Spikey M]

Where's that paedo with a submarine when you need him.

In a lake kidnapping dogwalkers.

[Lofty]

The people who found the dog say he was bone dry.

I can't make any sense of it. From the photos, it doesn't look like the sort of place where she could be dead somewhere and just not found.

What breed was it? My labrador dries off remarkably quickly due to her extra coat, 10 minutes after swimming she'd be dry.

[Spikey M]

Spaniel.

[Raoul Duke]

The woman who disappeared will have been croaked by her husband. It's always them

[Lewis]

Meanwhile the Aussies aren't putting KC3 on their money [not that his mum featured that heavily on it].

Something about the whole 'first nations people' stuff really winds me up. I think it was probably being forced to study it as part of property law. Fuck Mabo, Milirrpum and the Torres Strait Islanders.

Mate mate the Oldest Continuing Culture on Earth mate.

[mikem]

No it's not the same at all. People are being cancelled or having huge amounts of abuse thrown at them for daring to disagree with the notions put forward, most of which are absolute nonsense. Nonsense which you appear to have fallen foul of, categorising people as "terfy people" as you have.

And of course, this whole movement brought about a culture where it was ok to mutilate children, hundreds if not thousands of children.

Always fun how when celebrities say political things we agree with “they are attacked and cancelled”. And when they say political things we don’t agree with “They should shut up.” Entertainment companies don’t care about entertainers views outside of how those views impacts sales or are predicted to impact sales.

And who are all these “cancelled” celebs? Rowling? Are there not studios spending tens of millions turning detective novels nobody read into a tv show? Or 100’s of millions on prequels that lose money? Chapelle clearly isn’t saying whatever he is saying while getting paid millions by Netflix. Oh, wait …. He is. Same with the countless other freethinking contrarian comedians out there who all have the same views. But yes, they are being criticized and often loudly, profanely, and hysterically.

Why are we not equally concerned that Against Me! are not being promoted as the next big band. Fronted by a trans woman and pop punk is currently cool, so clearly all the money in the world is behind it. Oh wait, no it is not. Is she being “cancelled” due to her views? Why are churches not booking her? Isn’t that the cancel culture? And I am sure she has never gotten any heated criticism on the internet. Look, I don’t even know her name, that is just how deep I have pull to find a trans celeb. I’m sure you will all tell me about all the trans actors taking all the white male roles the way male actors used to play trans characters.

We are also all aware that the lead singer of Against Me! is far more likely to face verbal abuse just living their life, far more likely to face physical violence, is more likely to be murdered, and probably less likely to have the murder solved. But, of course, someone somewhere got criticized for views we align with - which is the important thing.

[Lofty]

Jim Davidson and Michael Barrymore were cancelled, to be fair.

[mikem]

Jim Davidson and Michael Barrymore were cancelled, to be fair.

Fair enough, never heard of them.

[Disco]

Barrymore bummed a man to death and let him drown him in his pool, I'd say that's fair grounds for criticism.

[Spikey M]

And Davidsons stand up felt like a similar ordeal.

[randomlegend]

And of course, this whole movement brought about a culture where it was ok to mutilate children, hundreds if not thousands of children.

You know this doesn't happen, right?

[Yevrah]

You know this doesn't happen, right?

What's your understanding of what happened at Tavistock and why it was closed?

[randomlegend]

What's your understanding of what happened at Tavistock and why it was closed?

What's yours? Puberty blockers are not "mutilation" (in my opinion or, I would've thought, by most people's definition of the word).

My assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think "hundreds if not thousands" of children are having transition surgery, and they aren't, because legally they can't.

[Shindig]

We had an email today mentioning a cancer prevention charity. In particular, they described cervical cancer as effecting, "People with a cervix." I can't help but think that sentence took longer to draw up than it needed.

[Yevrah]

Always fun how when celebrities say political things we agree with “they are attacked and cancelled”. And when they say political things we don’t agree with “They should shut up.” Entertainment companies don’t care about entertainers views outside of how those views impacts sales or are predicted to impact sales.

And who are all these “cancelled” celebs? Rowling? Are there not studios spending tens of millions turning detective novels nobody read into a tv show? Or 100’s of millions on prequels that lose money? Chapelle clearly isn’t saying whatever he is saying while getting paid millions by Netflix. Oh, wait …. He is. Same with the countless other freethinking contrarian comedians out there who all have the same views. But yes, they are being criticized and often loudly, profanely, and hysterically.

Why are we not equally concerned that Against Me! are not being promoted as the next big band. Fronted by a trans woman and pop punk is currently cool, so clearly all the money in the world is behind it. Oh wait, no it is not. Is she being “cancelled” due to her views? Why are churches not booking her? Isn’t that the cancel culture? And I am sure she has never gotten any heated criticism on the internet. Look, I don’t even know her name, that is just how deep I have pull to find a trans celeb. I’m sure you will all tell me about all the trans actors taking all the white male roles the way male actors used to play trans characters.

We are also all aware that the lead singer of Against Me! is far more likely to face verbal abuse just living their life, far more likely to face physical violence, is more likely to be murdered, and probably less likely to have the murder solved. But, of course, someone somewhere got criticized for views we align with - which is the important thing.

The amount of assumptions in this are outstanding. You're not reading the words I've written and responding to them, but reading the words I've written and attaching the views you think I must hold because anybody not aligned with your thinking must feel that way, right?

But I'll break it down anyway:

The cancelled thing - I wasn't even referring to celebrities. Take Kathleen Stock, resigned from her job at Sussex Uni after her life became hell when she aired her views:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/sussex-professor-kathleen-stock-resigns-after-transgender-rights-row


Earlier this month Stock said she had been told by police to stay away from campus

Her crime?


She has said she believes gender identity does not outweigh biological sex “when it comes to law and policy”, and that people cannot change their biological sex.

The horror of it.

Trans Celebs

The reason you have to pull deep to find a trans celeb is because less than 0.4% of the country actually are. I can name two and I'd probably struggle to name 560 actual celebs in the UK so the representation seems fine on that score. Maybe more haven't hit the limelight because they've been battling personally with what must be an incredibly difficult choice and process to go through.



We are also all aware that the lead singer of Against Me! is far more likely to face verbal abuse just living their life, far more likely to face physical violence, is more likely to be murdered, and probably less likely to have the murder solved.

I'm not disputing this, but how are we going to stop that then? Hounding a Woman off a University campus sure as hell won't.

And maybe no one's booking Against Me! because they're shit.

[Yevrah]

What's yours? Puberty blockers are not "mutilation" (in my opinion or, I would've thought, by most people's definition of the word).

My assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think "hundreds if not thousands" of children are having transition surgery, and they aren't, because legally they can't.

I was referring to puberty blockers. Mutilation might be a strong way to put it, but they have long lasting implications, right?

[niko_cee]

"Might be a strong way to put it"

:D

[Yevrah]

And I feel like this needs saying because you know, but I have no problem with trans people whatsoever, it's the idiots that have attached themselves to this movement that I've thoroughly had enough of. They never seem to be trans themselves (so how the fuck they're best placed to pick up the torch is beyond me), they have a thoroughly unreasonable set of demands that are never satisfied and (as Spikey said upthread) they're doing damage to the cause they claim to so support now as a result.

If they'd left it at "a trans woman is a woman" we could all have disagreed internally but nodded and smiled. They didn't, so essentially a stand needs to be taken, for the good of everyone.

[Yevrah]

"Might be a strong way to put it"

:D


Effects of puberty blockers

If you were assigned male at birth, puberty blockers will stop or limit:

growth of facial and body hair
deepening of the voice
broadening of the shoulders
growth of Adam’s apple
growth of gonads (testes) and erectile tissue (penis)
If you were assigned female at birth, puberty blockers will stop or limit:

breast tissue development
broadening of the hips
monthly bleeding

In both cases, puberty blockers will temporarily stop or limit:

growth in height
development of sex drive
impulsive, rebellious, irritable or risk-taking behaviour
accumulation of calcium in the bones
fertility

Doesn't seem a millions miles away from mutilation being a good description...

http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-transition/medical-affirmation-transition/puberty-blockers-for-youth

[mikem]

The amount of assumptions in this are outstanding. You're not reading the words I've written and responding to them, but reading the words I've written and attaching the views you think I must hold because anybody not aligned with your thinking must feel that way, right?

But I'll break it down anyway:

The cancelled thing - I wasn't even referring to celebrities. Take Kathleen Stock, resigned from her job at Sussex Uni after her life became hell when she aired her views:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/sussex-professor-kathleen-stock-resigns-after-transgender-rights-row



Her crime?



The horror of it.

Trans Celebs

The reason you have to pull deep to find a trans celeb is because less than 0.4% of the country actually are. I can name two and I'd probably struggle to name 560 actual celebs in the UK so the representation seems fine on that score. Maybe more haven't hit the limelight because they've been battling personally with what must be an incredibly difficult choice and process to go through.



I'm not disputing this, but how are we going to stop that then? Hounding a Woman off a University campus sure as hell won't.

And maybe no one's booking Against Me! because they're shit.

My point about Against Me! is that it would be absurd to think they were a victim of cancel culture because they are purposefully loud and political. This is true of every celebrity who is political. It is commerce and not cancel culture.

And yes, there are instances in academia where people face death threats for their political views or scholarship. I’d be more surprised if you couldn’t find a few academics facing similar for their views on Israel / Palestine, race, gender, abortion in the US, or a number of other controversial subjects. Shouldn’t matter what their views are but it happens because some topics are political hot topics. It is a negative to engaging in political speech. It isn’t unique to trans issues. It it more than for other similarly charged political topics? No clue.

But my question is this: “Why are trans issues in political and public discourse always issues that affect the mainstream?” Why is it about cancel culture or bathrooms or academia? There is a quite extraordinary speech from the conservative governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, that happened during debate and laws regards trans participation in sports.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2022/03/22/gov-spencer-coxs/

I recommend the entire speech from someone I’d never vote for but I’ll highlight the closing paragraphs on the stats of the “transgender sports issue in Utah” and comes to the conclusion that he’d like the “kids to live.”

It seems to me in these debates that this issue is always subordinated to issues that annoy us. And it may be more important.

[Lewis]

And I feel like this needs saying because you know, but I have no problem with trans people whatsoever, it's the idiots that have attached themselves to this movement that I've thoroughly had enough of. They never seem to be trans themselves (so how the fuck they're best placed to pick up the torch is beyond me), they have a thoroughly unreasonable set of demands that are never satisfied and (as Spikey said upthread) they're doing damage to the cause they claim to so support now as a result.

If they'd left it at "a trans woman is a woman" we could all have disagreed internally but nodded and smiled. They didn't, so essentially a stand needs to be taken, for the good of everyone.

I don't have a 'problem' with transgenders. If wearing stripper heels or cutting your tits off is your best chance at a bit of happiness then crack on; but a man in a dress is a man in a dress, and they should be treated accordingly - including being given actual help for their mental condition[s], rather than just being railroaded into permanent physical changes.

[Lofty]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64495564

Giving it big licks in the paper about his garlic bread :D

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://www.leprogres.fr/economie/2021/07/03/paolo-dimitrio-ouvre-le-restaurant-italien-de-ses-reves

There he is. Trust the French to get taken in by heartfelt tales of gastronomy.

[randomlegend]

Doesn't seem a millions miles away from mutilation being a good description...

http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-transition/medical-affirmation-transition/puberty-blockers-for-youth

It's just such a more nuanced discussion than you want to have. You're very prone to becoming entrenched in a position and then just making sensationalist proclamations about it, shutting yourself off to considering the depth of the issues.

I actually work with these kids. I'm not sure what the right thing to do for them is. I think - on balance - that trying to delay the irreversible development of significant secondary sexual characteristics until such a time as they are deemed a competent adult and can make decisions for themselves about a more permanent transition is not an unreasonable goal.

The problems - in my opinion - arise from the fact that there is simply not the data/evidence available to know whether such an approach has unforeseen safety issues and whether (should the child decide later that they do not wish to transition) pubertal development will proceed entirely normally at an older age if the GNRH analogues are stopped. Obtaining such data is incredibly difficult, because it's not something you can just run a randomised controlled trial on. Much of the understanding will be based on the other area GNRH analogues are used, which is to delay precocious puberty (when puberty starts unusually early) to an age more within the normal range. In that circumstance, they appear to be safe and children go through puberty normally when they are stopped. Is that knowledge entirely transferrable to delaying the puberty of trans kids until adulthood? Nobody knows. There are also of course potentially psychological issues borne out of the latter use which are not relevant to the former.

I will say, many of these kids are genuinely miserable in their given gender; not uncommonly to the point where they will make serious attempts to end their life. You are presumably advocating for an approach where nothing is done until these children are adults and can decide for themselves (correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure I've ever actually seen you say what you think SHOULD be the approach). Do you really think that's right? To tell these kids that they just have to deal with the fact they are going to go through puberty, irreversibly develop characteristics associated with a gender they don't identify as, and then they can try to undo that as far as possible when they are an adult if they still feel the same? I can understand the uncomfortableness of giving these kids drugs to block puberty without fully understanding all the possible permutations of the effects, but I am not sure I agree we should just do nothing (from a gender development perspective) for them either.

You can offer them all the "mental health support" you like, but often it doesn't help a great deal. By not allowing them access to these medications, you may well push them towards a path of self-harming, taking serious overdoses, being admitted to hospital under sections, being given hefty doses of psychiatric medications against their will (many of which have significant risks themselves). Is that better?

As I said, it's a complex, nuanced, and difficult topic. Screaming about "MUTILATING HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN" doesn't really add much or show any understanding of the situation. Have people/services made mistakes? I am sure they have. Has guidance been wrong and required iteration in light of new evidence? I'm sure it has. But in general, the people involved in these services are genuinely trying to help these kids.

[Don]

Like you fucking know a thing about the development of significant secondary sexual characteristics.

[Manc]

Question Time going off.

[Yevrah]

It's just such a more nuanced discussion than you want to have. You're very prone to becoming entrenched in a position and then just making sensationalist proclamations about it, shutting yourself off to considering the depth of the issues.

You have no idea what I've considered or otherwise and you shouldn't assume either way just because it isn't posted here. It's clearly a very complicated issue that I think ironically is massively oversimplified by those I've been taking a pop at in this thread - in that blockers as a child, op as an adult, job done.



I actually work with these kids. I'm not sure what the right thing to do for them is. I think - on balance - that trying to delay the irreversible development of significant secondary sexual characteristics until such a time as they are deemed a competent adult and can make decisions for themselves about a more permanent transition is not an unreasonable goal.

Which is the angle I'm coming at this from. We have overseen a culture of prescribing physically altering and (potentially irreversible) drugs to children, essentially at their request and clearly far more often than we should have.



The problems - in my opinion - arise from the fact that there is simply not the data/evidence available to know whether such an approach has unforeseen safety issues and whether (should the child decide later that they do not wish to transition) pubertal development will proceed entirely normally at an older age if the GNRH analogues are stopped. Obtaining such data is incredibly difficult, because it's not something you can just run a randomised controlled trial on. Much of the understanding will be based on the other area GNRH analogues are used, which is to delay precocious puberty (when puberty starts unusually early) to an age more within the normal range. In that circumstance, they appear to be safe and children go through puberty normally when they are stopped. Is that knowledge entirely transferrable to delaying the puberty of trans kids until adulthood? Nobody knows. There are also of course potentially psychological issues borne out of the latter use which are not relevant to the former.

I think a lot of this goes away to some extent if the barrier to being prescribed these drugs had been far higher, sure there's a risk that any child might change their mind at a later date but if the process had been more stringent then you're mitigating that risk far more than had been. As it was, a child may have presented with multiple issues, they wanted to transition so these issues were put down to gender dysphoria and drugs prescribed. It's just not been good enough. When you're potentially fucking with a kid's body for their entire life the assuredness with which you do that has to be far higher.

Now, I don't blame the medical profession solely for this, like I said above it's the culture of nonsense that has been allowed to develop unchallenged that plays a part in all of this - people have been genuinely hesitant to challenge things for fear of being labelled a TERF or worse. You accuse me of taking an entrenched position (probably fair), but where have all of the issues you cite with this been highlighted in the mainstream media? Nowhere near enough.



I will say, many of these kids are genuinely miserable in their given gender; not uncommonly to the point where they will make serious attempts to end their life. You are presumably advocating for an approach where nothing is done until these children are adults and can decide for themselves (correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure I've ever actually seen you say what you think SHOULD be the approach). Do you really think that's right? To tell these kids that they just have to deal with the fact they are going to go through puberty, irreversibly develop characteristics associated with a gender they don't identify as, and then they can try to undo that as far as possible when they are an adult if they still feel the same? I can understand the uncomfortableness of giving these kids drugs to block puberty without fully understanding all the possible permutations of the effects, but I am not sure I agree we should just do nothing (from a gender development perspective) for them either.

You can offer them all the "mental health support" you like, but often it doesn't help a great deal. By not allowing them access to these medications, you may well push them towards a path of self-harming, taking serious overdoses, being admitted to hospital under sections, being given hefty doses of psychiatric medications against their will (many of which have significant risks themselves). Is that better?

There are clearly cases where children are unhappy in their born gender, but also cases where people have had treatment and already changed their minds. You haven't addressed my question on why the Tavistock was closed, but from my understanding some serious malpractice was at play through a willingness to brush any doubts under the carpet. If a child's presenting with mental issues beyond just being unhappy with their gender then to put it down to that as a solution based on questioning the child alone is a dangerous game. So in short, I'm not saying it never should have happened, but that it obviously has far too much. There were/are even trans support groups online coaching children how to answer the questions clinicians would ask ffs.



As I said, it's a complex, nuanced, and difficult topic. Screaming about "MUTILATING HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN" doesn't really add much or show any understanding of the situation. Have people/services made mistakes? I am sure they have. Has guidance been wrong and required iteration in light of new evidence? I'm sure it has. But in general, the people involved in these services are genuinely trying to help these kids.

I don't believe that's always been the motivation. Those involved may have thought it was, but they've been caught up in the nonsense, abuse and general hatred towards anyone who disagrees with a child's right to choose their gender. Which is madness as we don't let them do anything on their own steam in any other walk of life.

In terms of my information on the subject, I've read a fair bit, which is hard as the mainstream and genuinely more objective media hate going anywhere near the negatives associated with this (hello BBC), but the video below was what really crystalised my thoughts. It's long, but a seemingly objective take from someone who was in the thick of it at Tavistock and blew the whistle. It's pretty shocking and as you're in the game I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you watched it, particularly if you disagree with anything he says.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ_bD6N1zNw&t=55s

[Lewis]

I haven't seen a multi-reply post like that since Harold was in his pomp (YouTube video in there as well). Quite excellent.

[Lewis]

I don't believe that's always been the motivation. Those involved may have thought it was, but they've been caught up in the nonsense, abuse and general hatred towards anyone who disagrees with a child's right to choose their gender. Which is madness as we don't let them do anything on their own steam in any other walk of life.


After two solid years of heavily-politicised SCIENCE exposing itself day after day, I'm inclined to think that the people intimately involved in this particular field are much more likely to be sympathetic to a particular approach or beholden to the high-status vibes than any normal doctor, and therefore unlikely to be approaching any of it dispassionately.

[Yevrah]

Essentially all you need for good people do to bad things is a culture where those perpetrating the bad things think they're right and are supported by wider society (or at least by those in it who are shouting, abusing or being DISGUSTED the loudest). We've hit the motherload on both counts with this one.

[Spikey M]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64497868

What is the point of this review exactly? As horrible as it clearly was, it ended more than 30 years ago, they didn't really understand HIV and haemophiliacs need treatment or they die. I'm not sure what they were meant to do?

Obviously Maggies hatred of gay people enjoyment of traditional marriage and partnership held things back a fair bit, but you know, (na na na nananana) Maggie's in a box now.

It feels a bit like those men from Northern Ireland that want an apology from the Prine Minister for being tortured during The Troubles. Everyone in power then has gone lads and not even I can find a way of blaming Rishi and Truss for Torture carried out in the 60's, 20 years before the former was even born.

[Shindig]

1620344840386134016

What a fucking terrible thing to say. Like, in response to a rapist of women being removed from a woman's prison. FUCK.

[phonics]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64497868

What is the point of this review exactly? As horrible as it clearly was, it ended more than 30 years ago, they didn't really understand HIV and haemophiliacs need treatment or they die. I'm not sure what they were meant to do?

Obviously Maggies hatred of gay people enjoyment of traditional marriage and partnership held things back a fair bit, but you know, (na na na nananana) Maggie's in a box now.

It feels a bit like those men from Northern Ireland that want an apology from the Prine Minister for being tortured during The Troubles. Everyone in power then has gone lads and not even I can find a way of blaming Rishi and Truss for Torture carried out in the 60's, 20 years before the former was even born.

I have to presume you missed the entire point of this case.

[randomlegend]

You have no idea what I've considered or otherwise and you shouldn't assume either way just because it isn't posted here. It's clearly a very complicated issue that I think ironically is massively oversimplified by those I've been taking a pop at in this thread - in that blockers as a child, op as an adult, job done.



Which is the angle I'm coming at this from. We have overseen a culture of prescribing physically altering and (potentially irreversible) drugs to children, essentially at their request and clearly far more often than we should have.



I think a lot of this goes away to some extent if the barrier to being prescribed these drugs had been far higher, sure there's a risk that any child might change their mind at a later date but if the process had been more stringent then you're mitigating that risk far more than had been. As it was, a child may have presented with multiple issues, they wanted to transition so these issues were put down to gender dysphoria and drugs prescribed. It's just not been good enough. When you're potentially fucking with a kid's body for their entire life the assuredness with which you do that has to be far higher.

Now, I don't blame the medical profession solely for this, like I said above it's the culture of nonsense that has been allowed to develop unchallenged that plays a part in all of this - people have been genuinely hesitant to challenge things for fear of being labelled a TERF or worse. You accuse me of taking an entrenched position (probably fair), but where have all of the issues you cite with this been highlighted in the mainstream media? Nowhere near enough.



There are clearly cases where children are unhappy in their born gender, but also cases where people have had treatment and already changed their minds. You haven't addressed my question on why the Tavistock was closed, but from my understanding some serious malpractice was at play through a willingness to brush any doubts under the carpet. If a child's presenting with mental issues beyond just being unhappy with their gender then to put it down to that as a solution based on questioning the child alone is a dangerous game. So in short, I'm not saying it never should have happened, but that it obviously has far too much. There were/are even trans support groups online coaching children how to answer the questions clinicians would ask ffs.



I don't believe that's always been the motivation. Those involved may have thought it was, but they've been caught up in the nonsense, abuse and general hatred towards anyone who disagrees with a child's right to choose their gender. Which is madness as we don't let them do anything on their own steam in any other walk of life.

In terms of my information on the subject, I've read a fair bit, which is hard as the mainstream and genuinely more objective media hate going anywhere near the negatives associated with this (hello BBC), but the video below was what really crystalised my thoughts. It's long, but a seemingly objective take from someone who was in the thick of it at Tavistock and blew the whistle. It's pretty shocking and as you're in the game I'd be curious to hear your thoughts if you watched it, particularly if you disagree with anything he says.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ_bD6N1zNw&t=55s

I'm 6 minutes into this and he's already either lying/misrepresenting the facts or he doesn't actually understand what he's talking about.

Under 16s are NOT given "hormones". They may be given hormone blockers, which prevent them from developing male/female characteristics (breasts for example) by delaying puberty. Current understanding is that the effects of this are reversible if they are stopped. I.e. the child will go through puberty and develop the characteristics of their birth gender as they otherwise would have. As I said before, the research is not there to be absolutely sure this will happen entirely normally in all cases, particularly where someone is significantly older than the normal age for puberty when they decide to stop.

Edit: I should clarify slightly what I've said above. GNRH analogues (the puberty blocking drugs) essentially work by mimicking the activity of GNRH. If you Google GNRH you'll see the H does stand for "hormone". Colloquially, when the average person hears "hormone" they think oestrogen or testosterone i.e. sex hormones which promote development of gendered sexual characteristics. He either understands this and is deliberately using the word "hormone" because he knows how most people will interpret that (which is intentionally misleading) or he doesn't really understand what he's talking about (because nobody who does would use the word "hormones" to describe GNRH analogues to a layperson as they know it will be misinterpreted).

After the age of 16, people who have been on hormone blockers for at least a year can start gender affirming hormone therapy. That means they may be given hormones of the gender opposite to their birth sex so that they start to develop the characteristics of their chosen gender. This is likely to have some permanent physical effects. I'd like to point out at this point that 16 is the age of consent for medical procedures regardless of whether it's to do with transitioning or not (and you can actually consent to things earlier than that without parental consent if you are judged competent by a doctor. This is called Gillick competence and it is how kids under 16 are able to be - for example - prescribed contraceptives without their parents' knowledge).

Once you turn 17, if you have been on gender affirming hormone therapy for at least a year then you can proceed to surgery if you do wish.

So the burden of consent is actually already dramatically higher than it is for most of medicine. I don't know of any other procedure or treatment which is gated behind an age higher than 16 like transition surgery is.

[randomlegend]

To be clear, I don't doubt there have been failings in these services, as I have said. I just took (and take) issues with the "Children have been MUTILATED" stuff, because it simply isn't reality.

[phonics]

Of course old gammon Yev is watching videos by people called TRIGGERnometry :D

[Yevrah]

Fair enough, I shan't phrase it like that again.

Did you watch the rest of the video? Other than his hormones comment was it fair from your perspective?

[Yevrah]

Of course old gammon Yev is watching videos by people called TRIGGERnometry :D

I was watching it for the man they were interviewing, not the platform themselves. Had he been on the BBC for an hour I'd have watched that instead, but... what's that? He hasn't? Oh.

[Spikey M]

I have to presume you missed the entire point of this case.

Quite possibly. The first line of my post was a genuine question.

[randomlegend]

Fair enough, I shan't phrase it like that again.

Did you watch the rest of the video? Other than his hormones comment was it fair from your perspective?

I haven't watched it all, I will when I'm home.

[Yevrah]

1620344840386134016

What a fucking terrible thing to say. Like, in response to a rapist of women being removed from a woman's prison. FUCK.

An interesting insight into the thought process at work here in some cases mind - in that trans rights come above all other rights no matter the situation and God forbid anyone who gets in the way of that. Having now got up to speed with JK Rowling's comments (she's unnecessarily antagonistic at times, but she's not saying anything like the sentiment against her would have you believe), these people simply cannot accept another point of view, to quite staggering degrees really.

[phonics]

Quite possibly. The first line of my post was a genuine question.

If the government infected your child with HIV or Haemophelia from poorly sourced foreign prisoner blood and covered it up for 30-40 years I presume you'd want, at the very least, some sort of financial compensation for the complications in their life that may have caused.

[Spikey M]

If the government infected your child with HIV or Haemophelia from poorly sourced foreign prisoner blood and covered it up for 30-40 years I presume you'd want, at the very least, some sort of financial compensation for the complications in their life that may have caused.

In that case, yes, I have misunderstood the point of the case. The radio made it sound as if the review was just to find out how blood donor recipients ended up with HIV.

[phonics]

That part they know. They bought it off US Prisons. Who approved to buy it off US Prisons, effectively, who was responsible for the murder of hundreds of people and who then worked to cover up these hundreds of murders for decades and how they were able to do so as well as decide the governments liability in the issue is less known and while I'm no lawyer, the crux of the issue, I presume this currently sits in a state of 'unprovenness' as the records of this all has been sealed to cover it up in the first place. If the review doesn't happen then victims are unable to sue for compensation.

[Lofty]

Fuck me that Question Time ep, you know what people's views on this will be before they open their mouth :D

[randomlegend]

If the government infected your child with HIV or Haemophelia from poorly sourced foreign prisoner blood and covered it up for 30-40 years I presume you'd want, at the very least, some sort of financial compensation for the complications in their life that may have caused.

Haemophilia is a genetic bleeding disorder and was the reason they needed the blood products. The infections they contracted were HIV and (probably) hepatitis.

I think it's also a worthwhile exercise to (and I know it's a cliche) "learn the lessons". People like to think things like this can't happen now, but unless you look closely how they happened (and were allowed to happen) in the past and put safeguards in place, they will happen in future.

[Yevrah]

Fuck me that Question Time ep, you know what people's views on this will be before they open their mouth :D

Caught it last night and an interesting shift in editorial policy - no chance that Woman sat on the left of the panel would have been allowed on with views like that previously.

[phonics]

Haemophilia is a genetic bleeding disorder and was the reason they needed the blood products. The infections they contracted were HIV and (probably) hepatitis.

I think it's also a worthwhile exercise to (and I know it's a cliche) "learn the lessons". People like to think things like this can't happen now, but unless you look closely how they happened (and were allowed to happen) in the past and put safeguards in place, they will happen in future.

I meant hepatitis not haemophilia my bad.

[Lewis]

An interesting insight into the thought process at work here in some cases mind - in that trans rights come above all other rights no matter the situation and God forbid anyone who gets in the way of that. Having now got up to speed with JK Rowling's comments (she's unnecessarily antagonistic at times, but she's not saying anything like the sentiment against her would have you believe), these people simply cannot accept another point of view, to quite staggering degrees really.

A bunch of mentally ill men, autistics, and high IQ fetishists being aggressive about something important to them is about the least staggering thing imaginable.

[Spikey M]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11710003/Search-missing-mother-Nicola-Bulley-Police-seal-car-park-near-River-Wyre.html?ito=push-notification&ci=hk6HxvL-9v&cri=KOdvri-Eb8&si=avDRAZsBN0Zk&xi=d133c45f-b498-4de3-a728-373b335ae8e4&ai=11710003


Police today cordoned off a car park and footpath nine miles downstream from where missing mother-of-two Nicola Bulley disappeared a week ago.

Officers have taped off Skippool Creek car park in Poulton-le-Fylde, Lancashire, with investigators wearing white forensic suits seen carrying away bags of evidence.

Lancashire Police have not yet disclosed what is happening at the site, which is bordered by a narrow tributary of the River Wyre.

The cordon has now been lifted and the car park reopened to the public, reports The Blackpool Gazette.

She's in the river somewhere.

[Yevrah]

She's clearly dead and statistically speaking, the partner most likely did it.

[-james-]

Yeah she's obviously in the river. The deed being done in broad daylight in the space of about fifteen minutes, without a trace, is quite impressive though.

[Spikey M]

I was thinking about this earlier, if he didn't do it, he is going through absolute hell at the moment. He's lost his partner, he's looking at life as a single parent, he can't tell the kids where their mum is and he must know that everyone thinks he most likely killed her.

That must be fucking rough.

[Ben]

It's one hell of an acting job if he has done it. The grief seems genuine.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He won't have done it, it'll be the local Levi Bellfield.

[-james-]

I don't think it was him. Two or three sightings of her walking the dog, but presumably none of him? Good effort if it was.

[Spikey M]

I am leaning the same way. You don't kill your partner in public in the middle of the day.

[niko_cee]

He won't have done it, it'll be the local Levi Bellfield.

Is there a wacky looking retired professor living locally?

[Shindig]

For what it’s worth, I don’t think any of the teenage trans claimants we have are on hormone treatments. If they’re getting their hands on it, the internet usually provides.

[Yevrah]

I am leaning the same way. You don't kill your partner in public in the middle of the day.

Depends what your motivation is.

[Yevrah]

I should add, I haven't even seen a video of the hubby, but I was reading something the other day that suggested 61% of Women murdered in the UK in 2018 were murdered by their partners.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

It was a copper.

[Lewis]

The phone and dog business seems a bit deliberate to me, so I'm going for the outside bet of her faking her death for some as-yet-unknown reason.

[Yevrah]

The phone and dog business seems a bit deliberate to me, so I'm going for the outside bet of her faking her death for some as-yet-unknown reason.

It does ring a bit of the canoe man.

[Kikó]

I thought she just walked into the river when I first heard the details.

[Don]

Kiko seems to be closest and I assume those guessing complex theories didn't see this pic of her.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b057a1d2cd94a810602afc1709b05dd55b7640ad/0_74_493_296/master/493.jpg?width=465&quality=45&dpr=2&s=none

[Spikey M]

Take that to the shameful lustage thread.

[Kikó]

I've been on teams calls where I would want to walk into a river.

[Waffdon]

Surely it is quite easy to determine whether or not the partner done it based on him, I’m presuming, being at work. Unless he works from home I guess but an engineer wouldn’t, would they?

[Yevrah]

If he did it, given the lack of witnesses, I was thinking it'd be a hit.

[Shindig]

Dog jumps in the river. Dog gets into difficulty. She takes her phone out of her pocket before going in after the dog. Gets into difficulty herself.

Although I'd still be surprised if nobody saw a flailing woman floating down the river. Unless she sank like a brick. Honestly, the timeline of the events leaves very, very little time to straight up murder her.

[Yevrah]

Aren't dogs excellent swimmers? Has the pup been found?

[Spikey M]

The dog was bone dry and was found in the field just mooching about.

[Shindig]

Okay, so the dog pushed her in. Arrest the dog.

[Yevrah]

Seriously though, have they found the dog?

[Ben]

I think someone finding the lone dog kicked it all off.

[Shindig]

Yeah, the dog was found at the bench with the phone.

[Yevrah]

I've never owned a dog, but don't they follow humans everywhere?

[Shindig]

:D

Not always. Sometimes they decide to fuck off. Pets go missing all the time. The dog might not have spotted her falling in.

[Gray Fox]

I reckon she's sat at the bench to take her teams call and let the dog off the lead/accidentally let go of it.

The dog has gone down towards the river, she's jumped up from the bench and ran over to get it away, fell on the presumably wet/damp grass, twatted her head and is in the river somewhere.

[Lewis]

She took the dog out so it looked like she was coming home, and took the work call so it looked like she was doing normal stuff, and then... The police want to be looking into their finances.

[Lofty]

Apparently there is a similar missing grandad from 28th December who went missing just leaving a phone behind but that's had much less press as he isn't fuckable.

[randomlegend]

Apparently there is a similar missing grandad from 28th December who went missing just leaving a phone behind but that's had much less press as he isn't fuckable.

Not with that attitude he isn't.

[Raoul Duke]

They're about the same now, tbf

[Ian]

Apparently there is a similar missing grandad from 28th December who went missing just leaving a phone behind but that's had much less press as he isn't fuckable.

"Tory voter goes missing" is less click-baity in the current climate.

[Ian]

The woman may also be some posho Tory to be fair, no idea what she does, but I'm not about to pass up the chance at that incredibly lazy joke.

[Manc]

Okay, so the dog pushed her in. Arrest the dog.

Let it go.

[Yevrah]

She took the dog out so it looked like she was coming home, and took the work call so it looked like she was doing normal stuff, and then... The police want to be looking into their finances.

On this, would one take a work Teams call while walking the dog?

[Lofty]

Some fucking melt at out spot joined a company teams call the MD was holding from his mobile and then managed to turn his camera on, showing him walk to his car, and then an underside view of his gunt for about 5 minutes of driving before he realised. A teams call on a walk is the height of professionalism in comparison.

[Kikó]

On this, would one take a work Teams call while walking the dog?

Yeah. She was pretending to work from home the workshy twat /giggles

[Ian]

On this, would one take a work Teams call while walking the dog?

Can confirm I know people who do this if the call is an hour or so, on calls they're expected to be on but won't ever need to meaningfully contribute to.

Hooray for large organisations.

[Yevrah]

Sounds like they shouldn't have been on the call in the first place.

[Spikey M]

I'm not sure there's ever been a Teams meeting that I have ever actually needed to attend

[phonics]

Just expand that to conference call and then expand that to meeting in general.

[Lewis]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-64519500

'One Ring to Remove It All' is fantastic.

[Ian]

Big firms should be fined for being fannies when they chase this stuff up.

[randomlegend]

Big firms should be fined for being fannies when they chase this stuff up.

I read the other day (and I haven't bothered to fact check this so apologies if it's bollocks) that if you don't actively seek to uphold copyright you hold, you lose the rights. This is why you see big companies going after things like this which will have no impact on them; because if they don't but then someone infringes their copyright in a way which actually matters, they will likely lose if it goes to court.

Would make sense if it's true.

[Shindig]

Surely a shopfront pun is defendable under parody?

[Spikey M]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-who-called-shop-singhsbury-17622945

:cool:

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

There's a window cleaner round here called "SUPERCLEAN" with a big black Superman logo on both sides of his van.

[Shindig]

Entrepreneurial genius. :D

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

http://www.supercleanherts.co.uk/

He's got the Superman logo on his website too.

[Ian]

I read the other day (and I haven't bothered to fact check this so apologies if it's bollocks) that if you don't actively seek to uphold copyright you hold, you lose the rights. This is why you see big companies going after things like this which will have no impact on them; because if they don't but then someone infringes their copyright in a way which actually matters, they will likely lose if it goes to court.

Would make sense if it's true.

I think you're right but they could also probably just pretend they didn't know that some fucking house clearer in whereeverthefuck was referencing the material.

[Manc]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64533429

Another case for Yev to sink his teeth into.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Surely he hasn't moved onto kids already.

[Yevrah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64533429

Another case for Yev to sink his teeth into.

Not remotely interesting enough. Sounds like either an open and shut case of murder/suicide or the former with the tracks covered very well.

[Shindig]

Or, hear me out on this one: Haunted house.

[Spikey M]

Surely he hasn't moved onto kids already.

It's a slippery slope once you're on it.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Can we rule out the balloon?

[Spikey M]

Can we rule out the balloon?

The Yank one, yes. The Latin American one, no.

[Waffdon]

Apparently Christian Atsu is buried under rubble after that earthquake in Turkey.

[niko_cee]

Todd Boehly's probably insured his life for $10b thereby instantly solving all of Chelsea's FFP woes.

[Waffdon]

https://i.ibb.co/GQG9RrY/6-E47-C97-E-5427-48-F5-9-DE9-5-AB21393-E882.jpg

[niko_cee]

I'm assuming he's still on the books there, which would be pretty lol if true (surely it isn't).

[Jimmy Floyd]

He's been off since 2017. His countryman, Baba Rahman, is still serving the eighth year of his sentence, which suggests either we gave him a Boehly Special contract back then, or we must have given him at least one long-term renewal in the intervening period. Maybe he knows where Putin's lair is.

[Waffdon]

I presume Baba will be offski. It was the old regime who liked to hoard players and give them an extra years contract every time they were sent on loan. See: Batshuayi, Kennedy, Bakayoko etc

[Alex]

1622645612393922582

:D

Thanks for clarifying that, Liz.

[Baz]

I would also like to declare myself out of the running.

[Lofty]

Likewise, I'm officially out of the running to fuck Kelly Brook.

[niko_cee]

Mate, never rule yourself out. She might read that and remind you of it in the post apocalyptic landscape where you are the last remaining people.

[Shindig]

I bet Liz Hurley could survive the apocalypse and still look about 45.

[Danny]

More chance with Kell tbf. Just bring a bag of power.

[Spikey M]

Not really news, but I'm not sure where else to put it.

1622649926197837831?t=H8i0ns_RkWy3CBSNLiUjZQ&s=19

:lol:

I thought it was Pete Burns at first.