The issue with Farage is that for everyone who thinks he's great, there are two who think he's a twat. If his hubris leads him to position himself as the "leader" of the out campaign, it'll hurt more than it will help.
The issue with Farage is that for everyone who thinks he's great, there are two who think he's a twat. If his hubris leads him to position himself as the "leader" of the out campaign, it'll hurt more than it will help.
If want to nail on a win for the Stay campaign then just put that smug idiot in charge of the Leave camp.
Well yes, I was accusing him of being a hypocrite, given that his comments were as bad as hers (worse probably, but still not outrageous or something that I'm going to argue about).Originally Posted by QE Harold Flair
No, they weren't.
Why not just bring back a massive surface fleet and end unemployment in coastal towns if jobs are the first priority? Pinko disarmers don't do themselves any favours with this sort of fuzzy thinking and 'Ooh we can just have one of them' half-measures. Either say it's a waste of time and stick to binning the lot or don't bother.
I agree and he should not be the leader, because too many people are fucking idiots who will think he's racist when he isn't. Hannen is the logical choice.
It's not the main priority, as much as they might wish to portray it as such to mollify the concerns of the unions regarding effective support for job losses if they opposethe renewal of Trident. Corbyn and his fellow unilateralists are in a once in a generation position to overhaul long-standing party policy in an area of prime importance to them. They also have the membership of the party behind them, giving them 'cover' for a move which is clearly unpopular with the wider PLP (who all want to be re-elected and don't really want to be campaigning with a manifesto that can be - legitimately - argued as weak on security).
The issue, really, is that Corbyn and the leadership are prepared to tear the party apart on this issue for no political gain. It's a stance not supported by the wider public, and the vote will pass the Commons anyway. He's wasting what little political capital he has on this issue, largely because he'd never forgive himself if he passed the opportunity of imposing unilateralism on the party.
I would agree on this. He's not racist, but he has said some 'provocative' things in the past to appeal to the base. That's understandable in the context of the elections he was running in at the time, but he needs to make sure he adopts a back seat role and doesn't start sounding off about "paying for foreigners with HIV".
Keep it to legitimate concerns around jobs, the economy, security and hammer those points home. Once you start talking abstract shite about "the bureaucracy in Brussels" etc., people start to lose interest. Make it real, appeal to "real life" concerns and you should start to get traction on the idea that the EU doesn't work for ordinary people and we'd be better off out of it.
PROJECT FEAR for 2016.
The fact that the government want Leave.eu (the Nigel Farage ego vehicle) to be the 'official' out campaign rather than Vote Leave (where all the money and legitimate people are) tells you all you need to know about his involvement.
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Gawd bless the Sun. I'm particularly fond of 'The madcap leader'.
Farage, himself, wants them to work together. He's the one doing all thr groundwork and actually going out and talking to people. You're right, though. Idiots consider not wanting mass immigration to be racist.
Jimmy, that spoiler reveals nothing.
Vote Leave has basically everybody of note except Nigel Farage and Arron Banks (another egotist), and they appeared to be doing plenty of 'groundwork' this weekend if their Twitter feed was anything to go by. Farage wants them to work together because he doesn't like being frozen out.
I'm not sure what idiots and mass immigration has to do with anything I've said.
The Sun just openly and obviously lolling at Liverpool on the bottom left there is the best thing about that front page.
By 'people of note' you mean mostly established political figures, right? There's a good chance it won't be the established political figures that sway this.
The Sun should be prosecuted under the trade descriptions act for registering itself as a "news" paper.
I mean everybody relevant except Nigel Farage, who if you haven't noticed is 1) very much an established political figure himself these days and; 2) not likely to sway anybody who hasn't already swayed.
He's an establisheed political figure but not part of the 'establishment'. And on the Sunday Politics yesterday they were talking about disgruntled, white working class Labour switching to UKIP. They also have seen a 25% rise in their approval lately. So you might well be wrong there.
They probably need Boris in the camp to have any chance. Well, that or Spain collapsing into a barter economy between now and the referendum.
I think Boris needs to be on the out side, himself. Him cosying up with 'the establishment' isn't going to do him any favours.
I reckon a thousand sexual assaults in one night by friendly refugees over here might do it, too.
He also puts off as many people as he attracts, so until UKIP hit 50.1% in the polls their numbers are irrelevant.
Cameron has 29%, doesn't he?
Which is why nobody is seeking to build the IN campaign around him, or calling people who don't like him 'idiots'.
I called those who think Farage is racist 'idiots' as you well know. Mr Dishonest again, tut tut.
And I think you'll find Farage, himself, doesn't want the whole campaign built around him. But let's not let what he actually says cloud a good whinge. If Mr Farage were to lead the 'out' camp he would be as much or as less a figurehead as Mr Cameron is for the 'in' camp. Since nobody will have 51% approval, does that mean nobody will lead? I don't think you thought that through.
The original point with which you argued had nothing to do with what Farage says, it was about the government seeking to make Leave.eu the figureheads to divert attention away from the competent people with all the resources.
'What was actually said' is never your strong point.
Great, but Lewis was confronting me about what I said regadring the idiots who hate Farage because they think he's racist, not the 'original point'. And after that, the conversation moved on. I don't think you followed the conversation.
Then who are you arguing against here?
Lewis. Bot not against what he said in his original post - I'm arguing against what he said in the very fucking post I quoted, which was a completely different point to the one originally made.
But was related to the original point right up until you bizarrely made the suggestion that Lewis had been somehow implying that Farage wanted to be and was trying to position himself as the centre of the campaign.
You really must get better at context and how your posts relate to it.
Related to, yes. So what? I deal with what he says in that post - that's how conversations move on.
Any idea what the inference is there? Hmmmm.
He quite clearly wants to lead the campaign. He hasn't said as much (lest he repeat his resignation mistakes), but why did he start his own campaign when he already had the UKIP platform? Why has that campaign made all the running about a merger? Why does his little mate Raheem Kassam periodically write articles about how Nigel Farage should lead the OUT campaign? It seems odd to take him at his word when all of his actions are those of a man attempting to secure a leadership role in the campaign.
I think he wants to do the debate, and he is the best at it. But too many idiots are put oiff by him for reasons stated. Read yesterday that Hannen may be in favour of a 2 referendum scenario, so not sure about him now. All sound very 'vote as we want or else' to me.
I suspect he doesn't want UKIP only to be associated with leaving Europe now he's grown the party so much.
So he doesn't want to lead it, he just wants to be the most prominent spokesman with the most media exposure. Right.
He hasn't said that he wants to do the debate either - that's just my take on it.
People have actually bothered to turn up to debate Donald Trump being allowed into the country
edit: Turned on BBC Parliament to watch the shambles. The House of Commons is in use by Ed Miliband who is currently debating the Energy Bill. There are about 11 people there total.
I repeat
There are a few great "modern" parliamentarians. Hilary Benn's speech on Syria was remarkable not just for its quality but also for the striking lack of comparable 'quality' interventions in recent years. When you read some of the old Gladstone or Churchill speeches, even on more mundane topics, you realise just how little comparison one can make.
I think it's been a bit over-praised, really.
I watched it live and after about 30 seconds was thinking 'This is going to be the best speech I've ever seen'. It was brilliant.
It wasn't Churchill in 1940, no - but what would be? It was still very, very good, however. On a par with Howe in 1990, although clearly the consequences of the latter were somewhat more profound to political life.
If you want someone whose oratory has been over-praised, we don't need to look further than Barack Obama.
Farage dont it like that every time the European parliament convenes.
It's terrible for us all that he wasn't elected to our parliament.
Farage speaks very well, but he's shouting around the fringes on debates which no-one cares about. Brussels isn't the same as the Commons.
I know, which is why he'd be even better in parliament.
I think he'd struggle - not because he's not talented, but because he's in the minority and his interventions, whilst they may be oratorically sound, aren't going to make a tangible impact.
That's not to say he's not an impressive public speaker, obviously.
Hilary Benn's speech was balls.
It really wasn't.
I thought it was rather overrated.
It probably helped if you watched the 10-15 dreary loads of pompous shite leading up to it, which I did.
He delivered it nicely, but it was shallow and full of crap history. It got over because of the Jezza is a cretin NARRATIVE.
Real world victories are even better than the 'E' ones.
Hilary is a girl's name.
I FARAGE didn't FARAGE think FARAGE Hillary FARAGE Benn's FARAGE speech FARAGE lived FARAGE up FARAGE to FARAGE the FARAGE ridiculous FARAGE hype.
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