London High Rise Catches Fire

[Spikey M]

You know what'll make 'em listen? Startin' fires!
Yeah, but...
STARTING FIRES!

[Spikey M]

You have to read that in the voice of Lord Jerrington.

[Spoonsky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g

[7om]

The protests have arrived at Downing Street apparently. It's bubbling beneath the surface.

[Pepe]

What is being protested exactly?

[Pepe]

Don't get me wrong, I'm always up for a good riot. Just want to know who to lynch.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's a conspiracy and they are covering up the number of deaths apparently.

Should add to the death toll ideally with the lives of anyone peddling the above.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Ah I see the SWP and extreme left have gone along. Matter of time until 1980s black London and their leeching lawyers get involved.

How are the police meant to deal with an illegal demonstration at zero notice? Fucking idiots.

[Shindig]

You know what'll make 'em listen? Startin' fires!
Yeah, but...
STARTING FIRES!

Oh, this is actually happening. As is the dumb assumption that there's a cover-up regarding fatalities because charred bodies can be identified easily.

[Lewis]

That Tommy Robinson protest in Manchester got hammered for stretching the already stretched coppers, so no doubt this will be the same.

[Henry]

Riots are wrong but they're what happen when you create an underclass with no voice, and then abuse them this badly.

[GS]

Ah I see the SWP and extreme left have gone along. Matter of time until 1980s black London and their leeching lawyers get involved.

How are the police meant to deal with an illegal demonstration at zero notice? Fucking idiots.

It's interesting that those who most complain about police cuts are now forcing a significant diversion of resource into policing potentially violent demonstrations - and away from actual important work where they supposedly didn't have enough resources to begin with.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Not sure these would be complaining about police cuts. These would be wanting the police and army abolished.

[GS]

Not sure these would be complaining about police cuts. These would be wanting the police and army abolished.

That's probably true if they're from the anarchist wing of the nutter fringe. Presumably we'll see Jez criticise them soon for the diversion of resources, at least. Not equivocate with his ubiquitous 'but'.

[Kikó]

That Tommy Robinson protest in Manchester got hammered for stretching the already stretched coppers, so no doubt this will be the same.

Still had enough to run a massive concert for Ariana Grande and Michael Carrick's testimonial at the same time though.

[GS]

875797188743503876

It seems the BBC are responsible, which I'm sure is news to everyone.

[John]

Are they building towards a Satanic ritual?

[Lewis]

These rent-a-mobs are so bad at chants.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Still had enough to run a massive concert for Ariana Grande and Michael Carrick's testimonial at the same time though.

Yeah cos they bussed them in from all over the country.

[Kikó]

Yeah cos they bussed them in from all over the country.

Which is fucking ridiculous.

[Magic]

These rent-a-mobs are so bad at chants.

We saw the immigrants
We watched them burn
Theresa May
Now it's your turn

14th of June
Remember the date
We consigned a bunch of refuges to their fate

[Lewis]

Migrants on fire
Cladding savings justified

[Magic]

Ugh. So good.

[Dquincy]

The last two pages of conversation. What a bunch of nobheads.

Anyway, apart from cuts to the emergency services, I'm still not sure why the current government is getting blamed. And why the mob think a new government is the answer. Cuts to the emergency service had no effect on what happened to that apartment building.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's turned into the once a decade proxy for the north London ethnics to rise up for no particular reason.

David Lammy crying on the telly, do me a favour mate, you had 13 years in government and are just as complicit in the wider conditions surrounding this as the Tory governments either side.

[Lewis]

The Black Blair
The Old Chuka Umunna
The Old, Old Clive Lewis

[Jimmy Floyd]

The last three times I've opened Twitter in the last hour there's been another cunt retweeting David Lammy crying. Crying with joy at the prospect of being on the telly again I imagine.

[Byron]

He lost a friend in the fire Jim. Coincidentally the same woman who Mrs. Byron knew.

[Henry]

The last two pages of conversation. What a bunch of nobheads.

Anyway, apart from cuts to the emergency services, I'm still not sure why the current government is getting blamed. And why the mob think a new government is the answer. Cuts to the emergency service had no effect on what happened to that apartment building.

The "current government" is fundamentally the same one there's been for several years. It is they who have abandoned health and safety regulations under the guise of austerity and cutting red tape.

[Dquincy]

The "current government" is fundamentally the same one there's been for several years. It is they who have abandoned health and safety regulations under the guise of austerity and cutting red tape.

But you (and many others) don't seem to realise these regulations have been in place for many years across different governments.

There's little benefit going mental at May. Go after the the authorities that review safety in construction, construction matetials and fire safety. i.e. the BRE and BS for starters.

[Magic]

Bloody hell there is some appalling shit about on twitter.

It's now entirely Theresa May's fault. She and the Tories effectively lit the match and that's the only cause.

[Henry]

But you (and many others) don't seem to realise these regulations have been in place for many years across different governments.

There's little benefit going mental at May. Go after the the authorities that review safety in construction, construction matetials and fire safety. i.e. the BRE and BS for starters.

The decision to use the cheaper combustible cladding (at a saving of £5,000) was taken by the Tory-run Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation. The same people ignored repeated warnings from the tenants group and residents over many years pointing out that the tower block had no central fire alarm system, no sprinklers and just one exit stairwell. They even threatened to sue on one occasion where this was pointed out to them.
This occurs against a backdrop of budget cuts and deregulation from the Tory government.

So, May isn't personally to blame, but as the boss, she gets the flack.

[Lewis]

It also occurs against a backdrop of rising health spending, so maybe if the NHS wasn't hoovering up all the resources...

[Magic]

It also occurs against a backdrop of rising health spending, so maybe if the NHS wasn't hoovering up all the resources...

All those outsourced companies need paid.

[Boydy]

The decision to use the cheaper combustible cladding (at a saving of £5,000) was taken by the Tory-run Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation. The same people ignored repeated warnings from the tenants group and residents over many years pointing out that the tower block had no central fire alarm system, no sprinklers and just one exit stairwell. They even threatened to sue on one occasion where this was pointed out to them.
This occurs against a backdrop of budget cuts and deregulation from the Tory government.

So, May isn't personally to blame, but as the boss, she gets the flack.

The residents couldn't bring their own legal challenge either thanks to legal aid cuts.

[Andy]

The decision to use the cheaper combustible cladding (at a saving of £5,000) was taken by the Tory-run Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation. The same people ignored repeated warnings from the tenants group and residents over many years pointing out that the tower block had no central fire alarm system, no sprinklers and just one exit stairwell. They even threatened to sue on one occasion where this was pointed out to them.
This occurs against a backdrop of budget cuts and deregulation from the Tory government.

So, May isn't personally to blame, but as the boss, she gets the flack.

Easy to blame whoever decided to use that particular type of cladding but it is completely wrong.

If a product is deemed safe to do a certain job then it's irrelevant wether it is 5k cheaper or not. It's not the council's job to decide if a certain product is or isn't safe.

I hate how such a huge tragedy is turned into political point scoring.

[John]

Fifty eight assumed dead now. Even that seems very low.

[Disco]

If we have another riot do you think they'll put the number up a bit more?

[Shindig]

Bruce Forsyth is poking his head out the BBC building to goad the crowd. I wonder what kind of structural shape that tower is in. It's a mammoth task and, unfortunately for the bereaved, it's going to require patience.

[Magic]

If we have another riot do think they'll put the number up a bit more?

It's like when Clarkson has to reveal how much his shitty car cost in breakdown and parts after a challenge.

How many dead? *muffled*
What? *muffled*
Come on!
Fine, 265!!!

[Luke Emia]

The decision to use the cheaper combustible cladding (at a saving of £5,000) was taken by the Tory-run Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation. The same people ignored repeated warnings from the tenants group and residents over many years pointing out that the tower block had no central fire alarm system, no sprinklers and just one exit stairwell. They even threatened to sue on one occasion where this was pointed out to them.
This occurs against a backdrop of budget cuts and deregulation from the Tory government.

So, May isn't personally to blame, but as the boss, she gets the flack.

My best mate was a fireman in the forces. He told me there's no such thing as fireproof anything. As soon as they put cladding on there it makes really not that much difference it's all going to burn and burn quickly.

[GS]

Okay.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCiItFRXsAEqztB.jpg

[Shindig]

I hope that was set on fire.

[GS]

The legitimate protests are being hijacked by the nutter leftist fringe. Again. They'll latch onto anything if it opens the door to a good riot.

"Because this IS war, a class war, and right now."

[7om]

This will all die down within a week and they'll move on to their next topic of outrage.

[Dquincy]

Okay.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCiItFRXsAEqztB.jpg

What a bellend.

[Disco]

This will all die down within a week and they'll move on to their next topic of outrage.

Like that migrant crisis that's now gone away completely.

[Lewis]

It must be quite tiring living your life like that. I reckon that is actually how the RAGE perpetuates itself.

[7om]

Like that migrant crisis that's now gone away completely.

There's a slight difference between a refugee crisis and a one-off event.

[Dquincy]

Like that migrant crisis that's now gone away completely.

Why be like that?

[Disco]

There's a slight difference between a refugee crisis and a one-off event.

Of course, but there's little difference in how it will be out of the news once the next thing rolls around.

[GS]

Constantly needing to feed the news cycle means that there's really no point in government responding to the spasmodic outrage crowd. They can just ride it out for a fortnight, maybe get away with a half-hearted policy announcement, and then forget about it when they all move onto being outraged over something else.

It's one of the reasons why actual policy response is generally substandard.

[Dquincy]

This whole mud slinging politics thing following the tragedy. Is it because we've just had the election, or would it have come to this anyway?

People keep complaining that the council cut costs on the cladding. But does anyone know the original specified cladding? Because if it's a composite PIR board then it would be just like the one they installed but a different manufacture.

[Spikey M]

#Kony2012

[GS]

This whole mud slinging politics thing following the tragedy. Is it because we've just had the election, or would it have come to this anyway?

People keep complaining that the council cut costs on the cladding. But does anyone know the original specified cladding? Because if it's a composite PIR board then it would be just like the one they installed but a different manufacture.

I suspect it's amplified by the election result (hung parliament, prospect of another election), but it's definitely much worse than it used to be.

I wouldn't bother trying to engage in rational argument on it. The narrative has been decided and, unsurprisingly, it confirms what everybody already thought anyway.

[Shindig]

3 elections in as many years will do that.

[GS]

I saw John McDonnell advocating that "one million" people should take to the streets to try and force another election.

It's almost as if he considers election results an inconvenience, although that's not surprising given his ideal constitutional settlement is one where you wouldn't have to bother with them.

[Andy]

This whole mud slinging politics thing following the tragedy. Is it because we've just had the election, or would it have come to this anyway?

People keep complaining that the council cut costs on the cladding. But does anyone know the original specified cladding? Because if it's a composite PIR board then it would be just like the one they installed but a different manufacture.

Most people who are now experts on cladding didn't know what it was 10 days ago.

I would have thought the original cladding would have been asbestos board.

The whole cutting costs thing is ridiculous, it is their job to find the right materials for the best price. It's not the council's fault if the product wasn't fit for purpose, the builders would have quoted to use a certain product which meets certain criteria and they go from there. Annoys me that people are trying to make out it's a money thing.

[Henry]

It annoys me that you're defending the council. Every one of them should face a manslaughter charge.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It annoys me that you're defending the council. Every one of them should face a manslaughter charge.

How do you know that? Are you part of the investigation?

[Andy]

It annoys me that you're defending the council. Every one of them should face a manslaughter charge.

Ridiculous.

If you want to take issue with something it's the general approach to fire safety in these blocks. Certainly not the cladding that was used, if it meets BS then it's totally acceptable to use and the price is irrelevant.

[Kikó]

Well that's the big if. The other question will be are those standards fit for purpose.

[Andy]

Yeah, they need to be looked at and assessed. Personally I don't think someone on the 24th floor of a high rise like this can ever truly be safe from a fire.

[Andy]

Well that's the big if. The other question will be are those standards fit for purpose.

There's no way it would have been used if it wasn't fit for purpose and didn't meet the correct BS. This was a 10m redevelopment not a one man band working out the back of a car.

[Dquincy]

The other concern here is the phased evacuation (aka 'stay put') policy. This approach allows high rise buildings to have a single staircase and as a such, a single means of escape during an emergency evacuation. This is on the understanding that not everyone will be using the stairs at the same time during an emergency.

The theory of phased evacuation is a good one on the strict basis that the 60 min fire compartments can be provided to all flats and common areas. AOVs (automatic openanble vents) are also required on the stairs to control smoke.

This system can work well on new builds where you're confident of the fire compartments. But on a building such as Grenfell Tower, due to its age it can be impossible to be sure that those fire separations are in place. And sadly, there are many more buildings in London like this. But the problem is you can't simply just carve another stairwell into a building. So I'm not sure where this will leave us...

[Magic]

It annoys me that you're defending the council. Every one of them should face a manslaughter charge.

:D

Can we have that quote thread now?

[GS]

Henry's contribution has been risible.

The left really do abhor basic fundamentals of the country's freedom like due process - or election results.

[Pepe]

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/how_it_works.png

[GS]

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/how_it_works.png

I refer you to statements from Corbyn, McDonnell and Lammy on home requisitions, Clive Lewis on "burn neoliberalism, not people", McDonnell again calling for a million people to take to the streets because he didn't like the election result, or the SWP hijacking any protest they can to demand "Tories Out".

[Shindig]

Henry's contribution has been risible.

The left really do abhor basic fundamentals of the country's freedom like due process - or election results.

Right, I'm calling it. GS and Henry are pen pals.

[Lewis]

Clive Lewis looks like a tortoise without a shell, and the sooner people realise the sooner he can be lolled off the national stage.

[Henry]

Ridiculous.

If you want to take issue with something it's the general approach to fire safety in these blocks. Certainly not the cladding that was used, if it meets BS then it's totally acceptable to use and the price is irrelevant.

They were told repeatedly that was unsafe and did nothing. Claiming ignorance or passing the buck isn't going to fly, and your determination not to place blame on politicians is itself a political position, so you can fuck off with it.

Further, I'm not seeing how charging them with manslaughter violates due process somehow. Nor can I see how wanting another election, however motivated, means that you don't respect elections.

[Lewis]

I think it's disgusting how the two posters with direct knowledge and experience of construction techniques and regulations are the most determined to cover for the people I want to blame. Utterly disgusting.

[Magic]

I think it's disgusting how the two posters with direct knowledge and experience of construction techniques and regulations are the most determined to cover for the people I want to blame. Utterly disgusting.

Who's the other one? Bam? :lol:

[Henry]

There are experts all over the media saying different things.

Oh, and it now seems that the cladding may not have been compliant with regulations.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Even now I don't know what cladding is.

[Bam]

I erect the scaffold to for them to fix the cladding, nothing to do with me.

[Magic]

I know thanks to Ken Bates.
Lufcdanny leedsrevolution

[Bam]

Oh, and it now seems that the cladding may not have been compliant with regulations.

May not have been compliant also means it may have been compliant.

To be honest when you do work for the council they go through everything so I'd be very surprised if it wasn't compliant.

[7om]

Why do you find it so difficult to take on even a shred of information from knowledgeable people in their field if it goes against your narrative, Henry? You've had Quincy and Andy both come in here and try to reason with some of your claims and both times it's just dig your heels in and fingers in the ears. Your blind hate for Conservatism is warping you.

[GS]

His contributions to the corporation tax 'debate' a while back were equally risible - discussing corporation tax in the context of onshore and offshore receipts was 'changing the subject', apparently.

It went against the narrative, and therefore couldn't be accepted.

Still, that pales into comparison with demanding that council members be prosecuted for manslaughter.

[Henry]

Why do you find it so difficult to take on even a shred of information from knowledgeable people in their field if it goes against your narrative, Henry? You've had Quincy and Andy both come in here and try to reason with some of your claims and both times it's just dig your heels in and fingers in the ears. Your blind hate for Conservatism is warping you.

If someone wants to "reason with my claim" that the council were warned about this over and over yet chose not to take action, then that's fine, but nobody has.
Obviously an investigation could reveal more details and more accurately assign culpability, but based on what's in the public domain at present, it seems to me that that lies primarily with the council, who therefore ought to be criminally charged.

Here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/grenfell-tower-refurbishment-used-cheaper-cladding-tenants-accused/) is The Telegraph giving a brief summary.


However the Grenfell Action Group said it had continually warned the council about fire safety problems in the block.

Even before the work began, the group complained to the council that it seemed the contract had been ‘awarded to the cheapest bidder regardless of the quality of works and the consequences to residents.’

After the building work was completed in June 2016, nine out of 10 tenants said they were dissatisfied with the way the improvements works had been carried out, while 68 per cent said they had been lied to, threatened, pressured or harassed by the tenant management organisation.


Today it emerged that in 2016 the London Fire Brigade had asked the council to check all tower blocks to make sure self closing systems on fire doors were working, following an arson at Adair Tower in October 2015. Yet no fire safety inspections had been carried out on the block after 2015.

Also, the less said about GS's determination to reduce economics to accountancy and on that basis pretend that he's the expert, the better.

[Pepe]

Ban cladding.

[Lewis]

So all the facts aren't in, but we should get manslaughter charges underway based on what the Grenfall Action Group think of the contracting process.

[Henry]

So all the facts aren't in, but we should get manslaughter charges underway based on what the Grenfall Action Group think of the contracting process.


Nope. Obviously the investigation needs to proceed first, and I'm not the police. Just calling it as I see it at the minute.

[GS]

Nope. Obviously the investigation needs to proceed first, and I'm not the police. Just calling it as I see it at the minute.

Do you really think calling for potentially innocent people to be prosecuted for manslaughter before the investigation has even started is sensible?

[7om]

Nope. Obviously the investigation needs to proceed first, and I'm not the police. Just calling it as I see it at the minute.

So the investigation needs to proceed but I'm going to make a snap judgement anyway. Got it.

[Henry]

So the investigation needs to proceed but I'm going to make a snap judgement anyway. Got it.

I'm not a court of law.

I'm sure you had an opinion on the guilt of say, OJ Simpson, before the court pronounced. (And I maintain that he's guilty despite being let off.) It's just an opinion.

[GS]

You can't seriously be comparing the two.

You're just making it up as you go along, as usual.

[Magic]

I'm not a court of law.

I'm sure you had an opinion on the guilt of say, OJ Simpson, before the court pronounced. (And I maintain that he's guilty despite being let off.) It's just an opinion.

Lol what. This is a major disaster, we should get the NTSB to do an investigation that'd leave no stone unturned. :drool:

We've seen the dangers of apportioning blame based upon assumptions and political bias.

[7om]

I'm not a court of law.

I'm sure you had an opinion on the guilt of say, OJ Simpson, before the court pronounced. (And I maintain that he's guilty despite being let off.) It's just an opinion.

No, I genuinely believe in innocence until proven guilty. But carry on demanding manslaughter charges for a case that's barely even started its investigation yet.

[Lewis]

This is more the equivalent of deciding he murdered his wife because you read that he had hands capable of holding a knife.

[GS]

Peston has gone off the deep end over this, but I've only just registered that Wor Jez is still pushing the requisition line several days later. He's now supplemented the options with "occupy it":

876366930398937089

"Occupy it. Compulsory purchase of it. Requisition it."

He's so thick.

[Lewis]

Every household whose home has been destroyed as a result of the fire will receive a guaranteed £5,500 minimum down payment from the fund. This will be made up of a £500 cash payment and £5,000 delivered through the Department of Work and Pensions into bank accounts or similar in a single payment

Is that standard now for every house fire, or just the ones on the national news?

[Magic]

They'll just spend it on Air Jordans and tellies.

[Dquincy]

They were told repeatedly that was unsafe and did nothing. Claiming ignorance or passing the buck isn't going to fly, and your determination not to place blame on politicians is itself a political position, so you can fuck off with it.


What in specific were they concerned with regarding the building fire safety?

[Dquincy]

Apologies Henry , posted the above before reading your later post. Interesting point re the door closers. All compliant fire doors must have fully functioning door closers. I see this many times where they are not repaired or replaced by the facilities management.

Their point about going with the lowest tender should be taken with a pinch of salt. 99% of my clients opt for the most competitive contractor. As long as it's a compliant bid then there is nothing wrong with that. Especially if it's tax payer money being used. On apartment buildings that I'm involved with, which are privately owned and located along the Thames, any work comes from a resident service charge, so you can gaurantee they'll always take the lowest bid (providing it complies with spec).

[GS]

Apologies Henry , posted the above before reading your later post. Interesting point re the door closers. All compliant fire doors must have fully functioning door closers. I see this many times where they are not repaired or replaced by the facilities management.

Their point about going with the lowest tender should be taken with a pinch of salt. 99% of my clients opt for the most competitive contractor. As long as it's a compliant bid then there is nothing wrong with that. Especially if it's tax payer money being used. On apartment buildings that I'm involved with, which are privately owned and located along the Thames, any work comes from a resident service charge, so you can gaurantee they'll always take the lowest bid (providing it complies with spec).

This has been my experience as well. Procurement processes in the public sector aren't exactly lax either.

[Byron]

Seems the Chancellor has confirmed the type of cladding used is illegal in Britain.

Ruh-roh.

[Magic]

Seems the Chancellor has confirmed the type of cladding used is illegal in Britain.

Ruh-roh.

Manslaughter show trials. :drool:

[Dquincy]

It's a big if...but if the cladding isn't compliant then the client, architect/surveyor, main contractor, subcontractor, and building control (the body who sign off the works to be compliant with building regs) will have some serious questions to answer.

[GS]

Again demonstrating that the absence of actual data means that leaping to conclusions and advocating prosecutions on the back of fuck all information is a waste of everybody's time.

It was an £8.6m refurbishment, so it's not as if they gave it a coat of paint and a couple of new doors. It'll be important to see what's actually happened before further steps are taken, rather than rushing to use it as evidence of "Tory scumbags" or anything else.

That's all contingent on whether the cladding was, indeed, illegal. But since new assertions are appearing every day, it's probably pointless leaping to conclusions.

[Magic]

It's a big if...but if the cladding isn't compliant then the client, architect/surveyor, main contractor, subcontractor, and building control (the body who sign off the works to be compliant with building regs) will have some serious questions to answer.

Apparently Hammond was talking rash and ill informed bullshit.

[Dquincy]

Ah, an MP possibly talking absolute gash. Who'd have thought it.

GS and Andy are right, let's put aside this culture of demanding unrealistic instant answers and instead let an independent enquiry do its job first.

[Boydy]

Can we stop pretending this is all just about the cladding?

The residents repeatedly raised concerns about the safety of the building and were ignored. They were threatened to be sued about their website raising these concerns. They couldn't make any of their own legal challenges because they couldn't get legal aid.

And the council had been underspending for years so it's not like they couldn't afford to make the building safe.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-royal-borough-kensington-chelsea-council-stockpiled-274m-despite-warnings-residents-a7795411.html%3Famp

[GS]

And again, there was an £8.6m refurbishment last year. It also appears that standard protocols for a fire were in place in a building of this nature.

Whatever has happened, it was not, as Andy highlights, a cowboy doing it from the back of a van.

So no, it's not just about the cladding. But attempting to tie it into a wider narrative before all the facts are available is foolish in the extreme.

[Henry]

Read the link again: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/grenfell-tower-refurbishment-used-cheaper-cladding-tenants-accused/

It's not about it being the cheapest bid or about someone doing it from their van or whatever. It's about it being unsafe, the residents having complained about it and their being ignored or abused.

Here (https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/) is the website of the group. Lots of interesting reading there.


ALL OUR WARNINGS FELL ON DEAF EARS and we predicted that a catastrophe like this was inevitable and just a matter of time. Below is a list of links to previous blogs we posted on this site trying to warn the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, who own this property, and the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation who supposedly manage all social housing in RBKC on the Council’s behalf:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/fire-safety-scandal-at-lancaster-west/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/more-on-fire-safety/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/another-fire-safety-scandal/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/kctmo-feeling-the-heat/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/why-are-we-waiting/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/grenfell-tower-from-bad-to-worse/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/more-trouble-at-grenfell-tower/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/08/04/the-disempowered-of-grenfell-tower/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/tmo-still-asleep-at-the-wheel

[GS]

I've read them. I don't doubt that the operators were wankers (there's no requirement in law not to be a wanker). That's irrelevant to determining how the building went up in flames.

You can't exactly carve another stairwell into a building. There was a multi million pound refurbishment. It, presumably, met certain safety standards or extant legal requirements. It's public sector - procurement processes are documented and will be available. Fire protocol appears to have been in place.

Something, obviously, has gone very, very wrong - and someone, somewhere, is probably going to go to prison although whether it's incompetence or negligence that's brought it about who knows.

What doesn't help is trying to turn it into evidence that supports a wider narrative point.

[phonics]

What doesn't help is trying to turn it into evidence that supports a wider narrative point.

That's the definition of every political post you've made in the last 5 years.

[Henry]

I've read them. I don't doubt that the operators were wankers (there's no requirement in law not to be a wanker). That's irrelevant to determining how the building went up in flames.

Ignoring complaints about safety is not just "being a wanker", nor is it irrelevant. It's negligence.

[Spammer]

That's the definition of every political post you've made in the last 5 years.

:D

[GS]

Ignoring complaints about safety is not just "being a wanker", nor is it irrelevant. It's negligence.

Is it? Not if the building was deemed safe according to extant standards, which you presumably can't say.

Still, let's abandon the inquiry. You've sussed it, apparently.

[Magic]

79 people now. I'll say it'll well be over a hundred in a few days.

[Henry]

Is it? Not if the building was deemed safe according to extant standards, which you presumably can't say.


Those are two separate issues. It may have originally been deemed safe, but if there were complaints subsequent to that which they failed to act on in any way, then they're still negligent.

[GS]

Not if the complaints weren't valid.

Again, we don't know what's happened so you're just leaping to conclusions. Again. It's desperate.

[Spammer]

He's said that there needs to be an enquiry and is expressing his interpretation of things based on his understanding. That's allowed, last time I heard.

[Magic]

Remember when everyone believed that mosher twat with dreadlocks? :harold:

[Disco]

Given that the building burnt to the ground I'd say it's a fair bet that some of the safety concerns were valid.

[Henry]

Not if the complaints weren't valid.

Again, we don't know what's happened so you're just leaping to conclusions. Again. It's desperate.

We do know. The complaints were ignored and they threatened legal action against the people who ran the website.

Unless there are further facts not in the public domain then it's quite clear that the council have blood on their hands.

[randomlegend]

Not surprising that GS is a proponent of the tick-box wanker culture.

"This is clearly unsa.."

"IT FULFILLS THE LEGAL REQUIREMENTS IT DOES NOT CONTRAVENE GUIDELINES LALALALALA"

Also if this had happened under Corbyn he'd be foaming at the gash.

[GS]

No, you don't know what happened, or why the fire spread as it did.

We're, what, five days later. Do you really think all pertinent facts have been released? Do you really think that even if they had been (they haven't), that you, a novice to all of it, would have anything like the understanding needed to reach an accurate judgement?

[GS]

Not surprising that GS is a proponent of the tick-box wanker culture.

"This is clearly unsa.."

"IT FULFILLS THE LEGAL REQUIREMENTS IT DOES NOT CONTRAVENE GUIDELINES LALALALALA"

Also if this had happened under Corbyn he'd be foaming at the gash.

If it's legal, it's legal. The question becomes why it was legal, and what the process was for that being the case.

If legal requirements have been deviated from, that's where the fault will presumably lie.

This really isn't difficult. If someone has fucked up, persecutions should follow. However, you can't prosecute people for following existing legal parameters.

[Henry]

No, you don't know what happened, or why the fire spread as it did.

We're, what, five days later. Do you really think all pertinent facts have been released? Do you really think that even if they had been (they haven't), that you, a novice to all of it, would have anything like the understanding needed to reach an accurate judgement?

You're changing the subject. I said that we know that the complaints were ignored. I didn't say that we knew about the forensic details of the blaze.

[Magic]

Not surprising that GS is a proponent of the tick-box wanker culture.

"This is clearly unsa.."

"IT FULFILLS THE LEGAL REQUIREMENTS IT DOES NOT CONTRAVENE GUIDELINES LALALALALA"

Also if this had happened under Corbyn he'd be foaming at the gash.

Labour council though.

[Jimmy Floyd]

RL does have a point in that people (of both sides) are too quick to attack/defend their favourite party/their least favourite party when something like this happens and that party happens to be in power/in opposition.

In reality it's the absolute cuntathon that is local government that is to blame and both parties (and indeed the Lib Dems) are determined not to do anything about it.

[GS]

You're changing the subject. I said that we know that the complaints were ignored. I didn't say that we knew about the forensic details of the blaze.

"You're changing the subject" is your go-to refrain when you're stuck.

As I said above, ignoring the complaints is fine if they weren't valid or deemed to be valid. Perhaps they'll be retrospectively found to be so, but that would require knowing what went wrong. Which we don't.

[GS]

RL does have a point in that people (of both sides) are too quick to attack/defend their favourite party/their least favourite party when something like this happens and that party happens to be in power/in opposition.

In reality it's the absolute cuntathon that is local government that is to blame and both parties (and indeed the Lib Dems) are determined not to do anything about it.

There's also the pertinent point that the existing legal position is likely to have arisen through legislation passed by Labour, the coalition and the Tories. There's also the issue of local government structure, financing, internal processes. No one party or person is going to be responsible. That assumes it comes down to whether certain materials were legal, or certain building practice is legal, when they shouldn't have been - but we don't know if that's even an issue in play.

I would be equally reluctant to apportion blame if Labour were in government now, because it would be fucking stupid.

[phonics]

I would be equally reluctant to apportion blame if Labour were in government now, because it would be fucking stupid.

You can make the rest of your points GS but don't just outright lie like that.

[Boydy]

RL does have a point in that people (of both sides) are too quick to attack/defend their favourite party/their least favourite party when something like this happens and that party happens to be in power/in opposition.

In reality it's the absolute cuntathon that is local government that is to blame and both parties (and indeed the Lib Dems) are determined not to do anything about it.

How do you fix it?

[Jimmy Floyd]

How do you fix it?

My belief is the main problem is they get bribed and are corrupt (this even happens out with me in tea and scones land), so addressing that would be good start.

[Andy]

There's a video doing the rounds with a guy claiming his friend is a fire fighter and they found 42 people dead in the same flat.

Horrific.

[Jimmy Floyd]

How would that happen? Everyone piling into a single flat which then gets burned?

Or some sort of party going on and nobody got out?

[Disco]

I guess either people coming from the higher floors who couldn't get any further or who all congregated somewhere they thought was safe.

[Magic]

Ramadance?

[Andy]

I really hope it is loads of people who couldn't get any further. Wouldn't be surprised if there where just that many people living in that flat either to be honest.

I went and fixed a toilet above a takeaway a few years ago and there where 10+ single mattresses on The floor across the two bed rooms and lounge. I'd imagine places like that are even more common in London where the cost of living is so much higher than the south coast.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Christ, I thought Lewis was joking about the charity single.

'You know that it would be untrue... you know that I would be a liar...'

[Magic]

68 luxury flats to some of the victims of Grenfell.

Bet their neighbours will love that. :harold:

[phonics]

EAT THE RICH

fucapslock

[Jimmy Floyd]

But then there'll be a new rich and you'll have to eat them as well, etc etc until you yourself get eaten because there's someone poorer who hasn't had any rich to eat.

[phonics]

If I was to come back to the UK with my current status I'd be in the top 3% of earners in the country.

I'm already rich mate, stick a fork in me. I'm done.

[John]

If I was to come back to the UK with my current status I'd be in the top 3% of earners in the country.

I'm already rich mate, stick a fork in me. I'm done.

There you are Mert. It's been a while.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If I was to come back to the UK with my current status I'd be in the top 3% of earners in the country.

I'm already rich mate, stick a fork in me. I'm done.

Conversely, I think I'm in the fabled 'Just About Managing'. I should be requisitioning your property.

[Magic]

If I was to come back to the UK with my current status I'd be in the top 3% of earners in the country.

I'm already rich mate, stick a fork in me. I'm done.

And yet nobody would envy you. :harold:

[phonics]

Conversely, I think I'm in the fabled 'Just About Managing'. I should be requisitioning your property.

You can Air BnB it for a week while I'm in the Maldives. Don't touch my Faberge Egg collection.

[Dquincy]

Government advises there are circa 600 buildings with similar cladding panels to those at Grenfell. Although not sure out the 600 how many of those buildings are over 18 metres high.

http://news.sky.com/story/government-tests-on-tower-blocks-reveal-combustible-cladding-10923147

[Shindig]

The government's really shat themselves over this. I'm actually furious.

[phonics]

Police are considering bringing manslaughter charges after the insulation and the tiles (fire breakers that are designed to keep the fire to 1-2 floors) failed safety tests.

[Magic]

So where is the negligence? Guess it depends on if the gear was supposed to but didn't.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This is an absolute historic level fuck up. They're going to have to rehouse thousands and thousands of people.

[Magic]

So have we actually paid £2bn to buy luxury flats to house loads of Africans? I guess we need to see how much the 78 were claiming to see if that's the best way to go.

[Kikó]

Why does it matter if they're Africans?

[Dquincy]

Police are considering bringing manslaughter charges after the insulation and the tiles (fire breakers that are designed to keep the fire to 1-2 floors) failed safety tests.

Got a link?

[Henry]

The police are finally catching up with me, I see.

[7om]

:D You smug twat.

[phonics]

That's the funniest post Henry has made in years. Well played.

[phonics]

Got a link?

No problem (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=police+manslaughter+grenfell)

[Shindig]

Impeach Hotpoint.

[Dquincy]

No problem (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=police+manslaughter+grenfell)

But that doesn't take me to a website.

[Magic]

800 homes being evacuated in Camden.

[Giggles]

I thought they were actually being evacuated.

[Magic]

They are.

Tesco doing a black Friday type sale.

:harold:

[Yevrah]

Right, now we know, this is absolutely disgusting and should be a source of national shame.

There are clearly people in this country taking the absolute piss and enough is enough.

[Giggles]

They are.

Tesco doing a black Friday type sale.

:harold:

They've been given notice to temporarily leave from what that reads like. The headline suggests they're barelling downn stairs and all standing in the street in their jocks.

[Haystacks Horace]

Right, now we know, this is absolutely disgusting and should be a source of national shame.

There are clearly people in this country taking the absolute piss and enough is enough.

Alright bigman calm down and dry your eyes.

Sorry to wade in if I'm coming on a bit strong. You won't be the first to get sexually horaced.

[7om]

:D

What fresh hell is this?

[Yevrah]

That spoiler. I'm crying with laughter.

[Boydy]

Harold.

[Pepe]

Why are houses being evacuated?

[Pepe]

Hello,

I like football and other sports but just to warn you I do speak my mind and am known as a no nonsense geez.

I am a fan of Frome town and at Premier League level Crystal Palace. Found the website after searching for a company I'd heard arranged trips abroad to watch football though that wasn't what I'd expected either.

Cheers

Welcome Horace. :)

[Magic]

Harold.

Yep.

[7om]

Well Harold has released a statement on Teh Refuge categorically denying any link to Horace, so until proven otherwise I think we should consider this a new member.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I don't think even the Bish would go around pretending to be a Palace fan.

[Haystacks Horace]

Who is Harold? Cheers for the welcome.

[Giggles]

Has he finally figured out VPN's?

[Spikey M]

Sexually Horaced. :D

[Lewis]

The Charity Shield is giving some of its proceeds now. I realise that I'm cold about these things generally, but people are going well over the top, and I think it has a lot to do with how everybody has to tell themselves not to shit the bed over the Muslims. Bear with me. The fact is, eighty people being barbecued in a tower block is much more normal (or at least less 'You wot mate?') than some cunt refugee blowing twenty kids to bits at a pop concert; but the NARRATIVE on those things is set in stone and ready to go. Nobody kick off. Nobody point fingers. But this is a new thing for most people, and they're losing their minds.

[GS]

Nineteen-hundred and ninety-seven and Anthony Charles Lynton Blair.

[Magic]

The Charity Shield is giving some of its proceeds now. I realise that I'm cold about these things generally, but people are going well over the top, and I think it has a lot to do with how everybody has to tell themselves not to shit the bed over the Muslims. Bear with me. The fact is, eighty people being barbecued in a tower block is much more normal (or at least less 'You wot mate?') than some cunt refugee blowing twenty kids to bits at a pop concert; but the NARRATIVE on those things is set in stone and ready to go. Nobody kick off. Nobody point fingers. But this is a new thing for most people, and they're losing their minds.

Englishman born and bred worent he?

[Lewis]

British. Not English. His parents were refugees. The point is, it was a much more remarkable - on almost every level - incident than a building burning down.

[Boydy]

A building burning down seems much more easily preventable?

[Magic]

British. Not English. His parents were refugees. The point is, it was a much more remarkable - on almost every level - incident than a building burning down.

Not as easy to BLAME THE TORIES though.

Also it's hard to argue they died BECAUSE THEY WERE POOR.

[GS]

I think that's a big part of it. It fits quite neatly into a narrative that a lot of people already accept without question and thus represents mainstream thinking (that the Tories would basically set fire to the building themselves if they could get away with it).

Some of the politicising has been horrendous, but you expect that nowadays.

[Lewis]

I don't think whether or not it could have been prevented is the main reason people are going mental. If it was people would be a lot calmer and happy (for lack of a better word) to wait for official answers and recommendations, rather than storming council offices and what have you.

[GS]

Why wait for inquiries when you can call for manslaughter charges and public executions on the back of one report in the Guardian?

There's a general lack of patience for everything, it seems.

[Shindig]

The more third parties throw at this, the less the government has to foot.

[GS]

I doubt that.

[Lewis]

These people refusing to leave the building in Camden are legends. Or they're illegally sub-letting. Whatever.

[GS]

Another typically measured intervention from the Labour leadership. :rolleyes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDMuYK9XUAEi56D.jpg

[Jimmy Floyd]

David Lammy was fuelling the 'cover-up' fire earlier about the true number of dead (it'll be fucking loads and most of them will be off the books).

This led me down a series of wormholes into something about how in these fires, people's fat melts and merges with that of other people so the DNA gets mixed up and identification is impossible. Delightful.

[Lewis]

Finding a few dozen undocumented illegals up there could go either way. It could show London (and everyone involved in the London Industry) right up, or it could finally prove that Margaret Thatcher set the building on fire.

[GS]

There are some sixty buildings across twenty-five councils that have now failed tests, so that's going to be a lot of people we're prosecuting for negligence and / or manslaughter depending on whether any of them go up in flames.

It's notable that the idea the entire thing was down to "Tory austerity" appears to have been quietly shelved now Labour councils are implicated. By everyone except McDonnell, obviously, whose lack of tact continues to embarrass him. His language suggests he thinks someone, or multiple people, have literally intended to have people killed.

I'm not sure where this ranks in his catalogue of outrageous statements. It's probably above celebrating the financial crisis and the economic CHAOS it brought, but below suggesting the peace process was brought about by the 'sacrifice' of IRA members bombing the British into it.

And to think our Labour supporting crowd on here would have him as the next Chancellor.

[Shindig]

It's probably a combination of austerity and negligence, you flimsy, reactionary gimp. Mellberg's right. You're on the spectrum.

[niko_cee]

As I think Lewis said from the very beginning, it's a local council, they fuck everything up regardless of resource levels. Look at every inquiry into a the death of baby 'letter'. Some idiot probably has about 500 letters on his desk somewhere warning about this to some extent or other.

[John Arne]

There are some sixty buildings across twenty-five councils that have now failed tests, so that's going to be a lot of people we're prosecuting for negligence and / or manslaughter depending on whether any of them go up in flames.


I'm assuming this is sarcasm, in which case - are you suggesting that because this has happened on a large scale, that there should be no charges of negligence (if proven)?

PS. I haven't really followed this discussion, so happy to be corrected.

[GS]

It's probably a combination of austerity and negligence, you flimsy, reactionary gimp. Mellberg's right. You're on the spectrum.

If anything, it looks like it's arisen as part of a drive to achieve 'green' efficiencies. I think you'll find I've been advocating restraint throughout, because calling for heads to roll before you know what's happened is properly stupid.

Still, we could prosecute Caroline Lucas in a show trial if that would assuage everyone but I suspect the narrative is significantly less gripping when it has little to do with austerity.


I'm assuming this is sarcasm, in which case - are you suggesting that because this has happened on a large scale, that there should be no charges of negligence (if proven)?

PS. I haven't really followed this discussion, so happy to be corrected.

You'd need to have followed the discussion. Henry was advocating manslaughter charges the day after, despite knowing nothing.

Prosecutions should follow where appropriate, but given it's a wide ranging problem I would suggest we hold off lynching anybody.

[Henry]

Henry was advocating manslaughter charges the day after, despite knowing nothing.

Two lies in this sentence.

"Reactionary gimp" is a good one. Probably should be your custom status.

[GS]

I look forward to your inevitable retraction.

Do you agree with McDonnell's assessment of it?

[Henry]

I think "murder" is too strong a word, but the idiotic line of the Daily Heil and others that he's politicisiing it is bullshit, and simply a way to avoid accountability.

It must be added that the Daily Heil was publishing shit two days after the fire trying to scapegoat a resident and was forced to backtrack.

[Lewis]

It was the smoke and the fire and the sacrifice made by Grenfell Tower that brought safer cladding to the negotiating table.

[GS]

Looks like the cladding was legal and in line with present building regulations.

We'd probably be best not prosecuting council staff for following the law, then.

[Yevrah]

So the fire safety tests it's failed are above the legal standard required? :cab:

[Disco]

Possibly because 'actually it was all fine' doesn't follow the narrative.

[GS]

879300234496557056

[Henry]

Again - the council ignored repeated pleas over several years about multiple safety concerns, and threatened to sue people complaining for harassment. That the cladding was technically the right specification or not is irrelevant.

[GS]

Well, it's not irrelevant as you well know. If they have adhered to law, there's no case to answer.

Let's see what else comes up on other regulations. Perhaps you could run us through the specific concerns you have with reference to the extant regulations. You know, so it's clear you're not just making it up.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's acquired a Hillsborough/Menezes type status now whereby you could guillotine every responsible person they can find and it still wouldn't be enough.

[phonics]

Yeah that was the real problem with Hillsborough. Too many people were held responsible...

[Jimmy Floyd]

What I mean is the narrative and the truth develop separately, and whether they happen to coincide is blind luck.

[Henry]

What I mean is the narrative and the truth develop separately, and whether they happen to coincide is blind luck.

What's the Hillsboro "narrative" then?

[Magic]

Again - the council ignored repeated pleas over several years about multiple safety concerns, and threatened to sue people complaining for harassment. That the cladding was technically the right specification or not is irrelevant.

What? :D

Of course it's relevant you fool.

[Spammer]

It's relevant as to whether it's the council or the regulators that need hammering.

[GS]

It's relevant as to whether it's the council or the regulators that need hammering.

Quite, so we can presumably all agree that Henry's DEMAND for manslaughter charges to be brought against council staff is exposed as the reactionary nonsense it was.

This is going to be one of those events where everybody really needs to wait to find out what's happened, particularly as 99.99% of the population couldn't have told you what cladding was a fortnight ago.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What's the Hillsboro "narrative" then?

A scouse one.

In that case what happened is that a report came out a couple of years later revealing what actually happened and people pursued 'justice' or their version of it based on that. Here we haven't even had that.

[Henry]

You don't know what "reactionary" means, you tool.

The issue of the cladding is not relevant to that of negligence, which is the grounds on which I maintain that manslaughter charges should apply. That is whereby the council ignored repeated pleas from residents about fire safety.

I again urge those who wish to inform themselves to read this (https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-fire/) and the associated links, particularly this one from November 2016. (https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/)

[GS]

That doesn't matter if the council has adhered to law. Just because they didn't like it, it doesn't mean the council has to do anything about it.

Which parts are in breach of actual law, then?

[Lewis]

They read like measured critiques.

[Boydy]

The glee coming from GS's posts that these people died 'legally' is fucking sickening.

[GS]

You'd have to be thick as shit to think that's what I'm saying.

[Henry]

That doesn't matter if the council has adhered to law. Just because they didn't like it, it doesn't mean the council has to do anything about it.

Which parts are in breach of actual law, then?

The council has a duty of care to its tenants. That they have been grossly negligent in that is manifest.

Link (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/grenfell-tower-results-fire-investigation-published-years)


A former senior prosecutor has said the evidence that had emerged so far about the disaster supported criminal charges of gross negligence manslaughter. Nazir Afzal, the former chief crown prosecutor for the north-west and former acting chief crown prosecutor for London, said: “I would expect criminal charges to follow. The tower is a crime scene and should be treated as a crime scene.”

Afzal said prosecutors and police would consider the criminal culpability of those responsible for the management and maintenance of the block of flats, and those responsible for the building materials, such as the exterior cladding and for the building work. “All have a duty of care. If they have been grossly negligent and that led to a loss of life, then it can be argued that they have committed manslaughter,” he said.

[Disco]

I don't think applying the law as it stands could be classed as gross negligence. And that's just one of the qualifiers in that paragraph.

[niko_cee]

I understand what Henry's getting at, but the problem I have is that the various building and fire regs are there so that Joe Council Hat doesn't have to decide what constitutes adequate fire safety. Can you imagine the alternative situation where the council has deviated from orthodoxy/building/fire regs in pursuit of what it deems a better (safer) set-up and then a fire like this happens? Everyone would go even more apeshit mental. Of course, they could overspec the building (relative to standards) to make it more fireproof, but that comes at a cost and you end up being criticised for needlessly wasting money turning every high rise (or whatever) into a nuclear bunker. Obviously hyperbole, but in a world where money is a resource, and building regulations exist to govern fire safety, I'm not sure what more you can legitimately expect, even if the outcome is awful.

[Henry]

I'm not trying to say that they should have deviated from regulation, applied their own arbitrary standards, or even overspecced the building. It isn't really about specific building regulations at all. It's about paying reasonable attention to complaints from residents. Instead, it's fairly obvious that they didn't give a shit and considered the people living there to be a nuisance to be told to STFU.

[phonics]

it was the Paul Foot award for Investigative Journalism the other day. Ian Hislop noted that one of his last stories for the eye was around 8 years ago about a London High Rise that collapsed in a fire where people died when it collapsed as they were told to stay inside their flat as there was only one stairwell to descend.

Plus ca change.

[Disco]

I'm not trying to say that they should have deviated from regulation, applied their own arbitrary standards, or even overspecced the building. It isn't really about specific building regulations at all. It's about paying reasonable attention to complaints from residents. Instead, it's fairly obvious that they didn't give a shit and considered the people living there to be a nuisance to be told to STFU.

Be honest, it fits your worldview that they didn't give a shit, that may or may not be born out.

Incidentally, it will be interesting to see the reaction to all this cladding business, I don't think people realise quite how many buildings are covered in or straight up made out of flammable materials.

[Henry]

Be honest, it fits your worldview that they didn't give a shit, that may or may not be born out.

I try to align "my worldview" with reality. It's clear to anyone that they didn't give a shit.

[niko_cee]

Every council must receive a million and one complaints a week. Where do you draw the line?

I'd at least wait until it is known what has happened before chucking the first molotov.

[Lewis]

The NARRATIVE holds that they never cared about poor[er] residents, which the threats of legal action want to cast as some rich vs poor power play. Councils use anti-terrorism laws to spy on bins.

[Spammer]

As long as they're following the law, the council won't care. In which case it's bureaucracy rather than them actually not giving a shit. The trick is to get the law right.

[Magic]

The glee coming from GS's posts that these people died 'legally' is fucking sickening.

My word. :lol:

[Dquincy]

You don't know what "reactionary" means, you tool.

The issue of the cladding is not relevant to that of negligence, which is the grounds on which I maintain that manslaughter charges should apply. That is whereby the council ignored repeated pleas from residents about fire safety.

I again urge those who wish to inform themselves to read this (https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-fire/) and the associated links, particularly this one from November 2016. (https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/)

The residents' pleas were not regarding the cladding though. They would not have the technical knowledge on that matter.

[Magic]

Boil and Dimry power wanking over this is far more amusing than GS' cuntery.

[Haystacks Horace]

There is a lively intellective debate in here so why don't you fuck off with your bile.

[Magic]

Loving it Bish.

[Bartholomert]

I'm not sure how the law works in the UK but in the US adhering to relevant fire / building regulations is persuasive but not dispositive evidence that a reasonable standard of care was administered by the landlord (to incentivize improvements which go further that the articulated floor standard as a matter of public policy, since regulations are not frequently updated). Henry could be right, but it's very rare that such a ruling happens.

[GS]

Boil and Dimry power wanking over this is far more amusing than GS' cuntery.

I think you'll find that the cuntery has been reserved for the hard left, who requisitioned the issue for their NARRATIVE before the fire had even burnt itself out.

[Magic]

I think you'll find that the cuntery has been reserved for the hard left, who requisitioned the issue for their NARRATIVE before the fire had even burnt itself out.

Indeed, but that seemed to be a bigger issue for you than hundreds of people burning to death.

[Lewis]

It is as far as the future of the country goes. If nothing bad can happen without everybody shitting the bed then we're bollocksed (if we aren't already, which we are).

[GS]

What is there to say? It's a tragedy, obviously, but I don't see the need to start demanding prosecutions before anybody knows the score.

The whole thing seems quite simple in this sense. If regulations or laws have been broken, then prosecute the people who broke them. If they haven't been, then the regulations will need to be looked at and almost certainly revised. Until then, what's the point in going off on one and pretending you're an expert on cladding and fire prevention strategies?

[Magic]

I'm saying for shame on both sides. For shame.

[Jimmy Floyd]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40491449

This is utterly mental. The fucking state of this country.

We haven't really moved on from the days of thousands crowding the gibbet at Tyburn.

[GS]

:face:

[Henry]

You what?

People don't trust the guy they've set up to chair the inquiry, and say so. Ohnoes! It's the end of civilisation!

[Jimmy Floyd]

You what?

People don't trust the guy they've set up to chair the inquiry, and say so. Ohnoes! It's the end of civilisation!

Basically what they're saying is they want someone who they KNOW in advance is going to agree with them, regardless of what facts may be discovered. In other words, they don't want an inquiry at all, they want a baying mob.

[Henry]

Basically what they're saying is they want someone who they KNOW in advance is going to agree with them, regardless of what facts may be discovered. In other words, they don't want an inquiry at all, they want a baying mob.

That's what you've read into it, not what they've actually said.

[Jimmy Floyd]

That's what you've read into it, not what they've actually said.

What she actually said was this:


Ms Dent Coad said: "We need somebody who can do the detail but we need somebody who can actually understand human beings as well and what they've been through."

If you can enlighten me as to what the bolded part means in the context of a judicial inquiry, other than 'what I've read into it', I'd be most grateful.

[Henry]

If you can enlighten me as to what the bolded part means in the context of a judicial inquiry, other than 'what I've read into it', I'd be most grateful.

It probably means what it says and what has been said by others - that this bloke is too much of a technocrat and unlikely to give sufficient weight to the human impact involved, as can be seen by his previous record.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What does that actually mean though?

[Henry]

I'm not sure how it can be much clearer than that. In assessing the decisions taken by the council, management companies and so forth, he will need to analyse their impacts. One of those is the human cost to the tenants - lets say being separated from their families, or not knowing if they're alive in the aftermath of the fire. If he's inclined to ignore that or to give it short shrift in favour of a focus only on legalisms, then there's a problem.

[Lewis]

Remember a few months ago when questioning judges was to shit on D-Day and join Donald Trump in the Islamic Reich?

[Henry]

Remember a few months ago when questioning judges was to shit on D-Day and join Donald Trump in the Islamic Reich?

It's certainly inappropriate for the President of the United States to be going around saying "so-called judges" and blaming them in advance for terrorist attacks.
This isn't that though.