Coronavirus Death Thread

[Spikey M]

Isn't that just tough shit? Why would you deliberately hold back people who can travel just because another group can't?

The vaccine passport isn't just being discussed for international travel. It's being offered as an example for everything.

The vaccinated go back to normal, the non-vaccinated stay at home. That leaves us in a bizarre world where the formerly vulnerable are now off out down the pub and the non-vulnerabal are still staying at home to... erm... protect the vulnerable that are currently sat in the pub?

That's not tough shit, that's mental shit. But even if I were to concede that it is tough shit, why is tough shit now an option? It hasn't been until now. "We're all in this together".

[Magic]

Isn't that just tough shit? Why would you deliberately hold back people who can travel just because another group can't?

This is the same logic as why would you deliberately hold back a young, healthy population who can do what they like because they aren't at risk unlike like a bunch of fat old spastics who are?

[7om]

The vaccine passport isn't just being discussed for international travel. It's being offered as an example for everything.

The vaccinated go back no normal, the non-vaccinated stay at home. That leaves us in a bizarre world where the formerly vulnerable are now off out down the pub and the non-vulnerabal are still staying at home to... erm... protect the vulnerable that are currently sat in the pub?

That's not tough shit, that's mental shit. But even if I were to concede that it is tough shit, why is tough shit now an option? It hasn't been until now. "We're all in this together".

The kicker against that argument is that it's not just about infection, it's also transmission. The vaccinated boomers down the pub are at a decreased risk of infection and trasnmitting it onto someone else if they did have it. Us twats sitting at home may not get too ill if we also went down the pub but then we are capable of transmitting. Then you've got the follow up argument of increasing cases and subsequent increased healthcare burden and mutations.

I think tough shit is always in our society. It's what a lot of people think when you walk past a homeless person sleeping on the street, for example. Things can't always be fair.

[7om]

This is the same logic as why would you deliberately hold back a young, healthy population who can do what they like because they aren't at risk unlike like a bunch of fat old spastics who are?

Because it's not just about infection risk. It's asymtomatic cases --> transmission --> mutations. If the mutations evade the vaccines we are gonna be in this cycle forever.

[Spikey M]

The kicker against that argument is that it's not just about infection, it's also transmission. The vaccinated boomers down the pub are at a decreased risk of infection and trasnmitting it onto someone else if they did have it. Us twats sitting at home may not get too ill if we also went down the pub but then we are capable of transmitting. Then you've got the follow up argument of increasing cases and subsequent increased healthcare burden and mutations.

I think tough shit is always in our society. It's what a lot of people think when you walk past a homeless person sleeping on the street, for example. Things can't always be fair.

If you would actually tolerate that, you're fucked in the head. Just FYI.

"You guys go out and have fun, we'll keep you safe".

[John Arne]

I don't see a problem with having to prove you've been vaccinated to travel. I'm likely not going to get a jab until end of this year, so won't have seen my family for basically 3 years - but the greater good - that's life.

[7om]

If you would actually tolerate that, you're fucked in the head. Just FYI.

"You guys go out and have fun, we'll keep you safe".

I would tolerate that. It just seems selfish to me to force people to isolate when they are protected. The whole point of the vaccine is to release people. Would you be happier if they were also forced to stay at home just because you have to?

[Spikey M]

I would tolerate that. It just seems selfish to me to force people to isolate when they are protected. The whole point of the vaccine is to release people. Would you be happier if they were also forced to stay at home just because you have to?

No, I would release the lockdown in a gradual manner that doesn't discriminate.

But the conversation is pointless from here, we are too far apart to ever agree.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Isn't that just tough shit? Why would you deliberately hold back people who can travel just because another group can't?

Makes medical and possibly economic sense, but the politics/humanity of asking the 20-40 year olds, who have held their lives up for the past 12-18 months to protect the vulnerable, now to watch the vulnerable swan off on their hols while they are still banned from doing so, is appalling.

[Manc]

How old is 7om?

[Spikey M]

67 with a BMI of 45 and 1 lung.

[7om]

Makes medical and possibly economic sense, but the politics/humanity of asking the 20-40 year olds, who have held their lives up for the past 12-18 months to protect the vulnerable, now to watch the vulnerable swan off on their hols while they are still banned from doing so, is appalling.

I'm not zero covid by any stretch, but you have to make rational decisions regarding the easing of lockdown. The unvaccinated are a massive vector for transmission (and probably mutations) and that won't change regardless if Sheila and Dave go to Tenerife for a week.

[Spikey M]

I'm not zero covid by any stretch, but you have to make rational decisions regarding the easing of lockdown. The unvaccinated are a massive vector for transmission (and probably mutations) and that won't change regardless if Sheila and Dave go to Tenerife for a week.

I mean, if we're following the Data it's NHS workers, patients, carers, and care residents that are spreading this. Not "the unvaccinated".

[7om]

I mean, if we're following the Data it's NHS workers, patients, carers, and care residents that are spreading this. Not "the unvaccinated".

Haven't all of those groups been vaccinated by now? Their contribution to transmission must be low or at least quickly shrinking.

[Spikey M]

But it hasn't been for a year and yet talk of building an armed border around all hospitals has been somewhat absent.

[7om]

But it hasn't been for a year and yet talk of building an armed border around all hospitals has been somewhat absent.

That's because hospitals have to stay open. We don't have to go down the pub.

[Spikey M]

That's because hospitals have to stay open. We don't have to go down the pub.

We're back to using the pub as the example I see. That should be Godwins Law with this shit.

[7om]

We're back to using the pub as the example I see. That should be Godwins Law with this shit.

I'm using that as a catch-all term for releasing society. Let me put it this way: the unvaccinated don't need to be released from lockdown, the hospitals must stay open.

[Magic]

The body of 19 people was set up by Holyrood's Covid-19 Committee to provide the public's view on the government's approach to coronavirus restrictions and strategy.

It has called for a plan that would try to gradually reduce the number of cases to zero.

[Lewis]

The plan will be for the SNP to say it's zero and then it is.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Let me put it this way: the unvaccinated don't need to be released from lockdown

This sort of thought process is why scientists whinge about people not listening to them. Life is not a petri dish.

[Spikey M]

I literally can't continue with that discussion. Yev and Magic are right and we may as well throw ourselves from something tall.

[Don]

I'm using that as a catch-all term for releasing society. Let me put it this way: the unvaccinated don't need to be released from lockdown, the hospitals must stay open.

And therein lies the crux of the matter.

Edit:

[7om]

And therein lies the crux of the matter.

Edit:

There's a difference between what is needed and what people want. I don't need to go down the Blues, but I'd like to.

[7om]

Life is not a petri dish.

But it is temporarily, though. That's the point.

[Spikey M]

I'm really starting to see the value of the Algorithmic Echo Chambers people retreat into.

[Don]

There's a difference between what is needed and what people want. I don't need to go down the Blues, but I'd like to.

If you think there is no pressing need to get the fuck out of this shit, I'd spend some time compiling some studies (most likely to be carried out on prisoners) to back it up but I haven't the willpower currently. What I can guarantee is Team Sauna will be there to 'we told you so' for the next decade at least when the wrongs and the dire consequences of this shambles are brought to light.

[Boydy]

Isn't that just tough shit? Why would you deliberately hold back people who can travel just because another group can't?

Because fuck boomers, that's why.

[Spikey M]

Because fuck boomers, that's why.

If you've just got to that post I beg you to turn back. Do not enter any further.

[7om]

I'm really starting to see the value of the Algorithmic Echo Chambers people retreat into.

I don't know what that is referring to but I don't retreat to any echo chambers. That's why I am currently in here discussing my viewpoint against about 5 others. Just don't engage with the conversation if you don't like it.

[7om]

If you think there is no pressing need to get the fuck out of this shit, I'd spend some time compiling some studies (most likely to be carried out on prisoners) to back it up but I haven't the willpower currently. What I can guarantee is Team Sauna will be there to 'we told you so' for the next decade at least when the wrongs and the dire consequences of this shambles are brought to light.

I'm not saying there won't be consequences Taz. I know full well there are. But I believe the consequences of letting this pandemic continue, or even exacerbate it through our own policy would be even worse.

I can't predict the future and I'm not saying I am 100% right.

[Spikey M]

Meaning I wish I was in an echo chamber because you have depressed the living shit out of me and I'm genuinely concerned that you're representative of the majority of people right now.

[Kikó]

I think you just need to compartmentalise it a bit more. This is a short term pain - it will pass. We will go back to a normal way of living.

[Spikey M]

If they release the vaccinated and keep us penned in I would not handle that in a healthy way. I know that much. Resentment unlike anything I have ever felt.

[Jimmy Floyd]

But it is temporarily, though. That's the point.

Only if you think in a certain way, in which extreme caution re a virus against which we will soon all have been vaccinated trumps all else.

The goalposts are shifting from 'let's do what we can to protect the vulnerable right now' to 'let's restrict your freedom for an unknown period of time until conditions are to our liking'. One is morally acceptable, one is not.

[7om]

Only if you think in a certain way, in which extreme caution re a virus against which we will soon all have been vaccinated trumps all else.

The goalposts are shifting from 'let's do what we can to protect the vulnerable right now' to 'let's restrict your freedom for an unknown period of time until conditions are to our liking'. One is morally acceptable, one is not.

We're not all going to be vaccinated soon. You're looking at late summer to early autumn for all adults. You release society now, regardless of vaccination status, you'll be back in full lockdown within 2 months.

That's why I am saying release the vaccinated now so at least non-essential business can slowly reopen. And then release more people as they get the jabs. This is so much more than short term "freedoms", it's about our long-term ability to lead normal lives again.

[Don]

We're not all going to be vaccinated soon. You're looking at late summer to early autumn for all adults. You release society now, regardless of vaccination status, you'll be back in full lockdown within 2 months.

That's why I am saying release the vaccinated now so at least non-essential business can slowly reopen. And then release more people as they get the jabs. This is so much more than short term "freedoms", it's about our long-term ability to lead normal lives again.

Isn't the only risk threatening another lockdown the possibility of mutation leading to vaccine failure? If we were to open up now, the vaccine alone should prevent any risk of health service being overcome, no?

[Jimmy Floyd]

We're not all going to be vaccinated soon. You're looking at late summer to early autumn for all adults. You release society now, regardless of vaccination status, you'll be back in full lockdown within 2 months.

That's why I am saying release the vaccinated now so at least non-essential business can slowly reopen. And then release more people as they get the jabs. This is so much more than short term "freedoms", it's about our long-term ability to lead normal lives again.

No one's advocating complete release now. However it should be their responsibility to open whatever can be opened as soon as it can possibly be opened, rather than 'Hmm, let's see for a few months'.

And if vaccines aren't going to enable us to lead normal lives again then nothing will, in which case we shouldn't be in lockdown in the first place.

If you think that 'But there might be a dangerous variant in future!' is grounds for restrictions on freedom then you are a dangerous lunatic. It's about preventing mass sickness overwhelming the NHS's ability to save the people they can save. Once that is not in question, then there shouldn't be significant restrictions.

Oh and I can live with mask wearing in shops, working from home etc if that's what it takes. But stopping people from seeing friends and family? Barbarism.

[niko_cee]

Let me put it this way: the unvaccinated don't need to be released from lockdown

And here endeth the philosophical discussion.

Shame we didn't role 'tough shit' out when it came to protecting a vanishingly small [and in general terms pointless] section of society.

[7om]

And here endeth the philosophical discussion.

Shame we didn't role 'tough shit' out when it came to protecting a vanishingly small [and in general terms pointless] section of society.

Because 'tough shit' for us is psychological distress, for the vulnerable it is death.

[niko_cee]

Tough shit is tough shit mate.

The vaccinated will have to wait for everyone else. If they don't like that, well, you can guess what the response would be.

[7om]

Tough shit is tough shit mate.

The vaccinated will have to wait for everyone else. If they don't like that, well, you can guess what the response would be.

They probably will, yeah. I just think that mindset is selfish.

[Boydy]

They won't. They're the Tories' core vote. They'll deffo let them out/go on holiday. The young don't vote for them anyway so they'll get told to stay inside.

[niko_cee]

It's called quid pro quo, not selfishness.

If the vulnerable want to renege on their Faustian pact, well, that never seems a great idea.

[7om]

It's called quid pro quo, not selfishness.

If the vulnerable want to renege on their Faustian pact, well, that never seems a great idea.

Call it whatever you want, I feel it is unnecessary to hold vaccinated people back when there is no medical reason to.

[randomlegend]

Wanting the vaccinated to stay home just because you had/have to is pettiest, most childish shit imaginable. Absolute toddlers.

[Spikey M]

That's not the argument being put forward.

Release the lockdown slowly and carefully, the end.

[niko_cee]

It's how you maintain the basic structure of society, although, as has been pointed out by others, this is something outwith the wit of the scientific method.

[Boydy]

Wanting the vaccinated to stay home just because you had/have to is pettiest, most childish shit imaginable. Absolute toddlers.

Oh aye, just cause you've got yours.

[Don]

I feel the crux of the matter is we have two competing schools of thought. One suggest open it all up now that we have a vaccine and no calculable risk whilst the other are a bunch of soft shites.