Tokyo Olympics

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Honestly I think it's a bit of a cop out. It might be very cynical of me, but it's a little convenient how she makes a mistake on one apparatus, recording a low score by her standards, and then conveniently cites mental health as a reason to sit out the rest of the event, leaving her 3 teammates in the lurch who have to pick up the slack. Not to mention American gymnasts who missed out on the team because she's there.

I feel a little less strongly now she has said she's going to miss the individual event too, but even so, the song and dance in the media is a joke. They spent 20-30 minutes this morning on 5 live nattering about how proud they were of her, rather than focusing on live GB involvement in a number of disciplines.

Because she probably though she could get through it before that jump. Knowing she fucked up probably caused her to spiral slightly and think that she's just fucked her whole team up which would have put her in an even worse headspace.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57986166

BBC are also saying she had the "twisties" aka the yips so she would have known that she wouldn't be able to perform to any sort of viable standard. She probably thought that the best way she could help her team was by sitting out.

[Pepe]

They spent 20-30 minutes this morning on 5 live nattering about how proud they were of her

And that right there is the issue. I have no issue with her doing whatever the fuck she wants.

There are people that thrive under pressure, and others that crack under pressure. In as much as I think that thriving under pressure is a more desirable trait than cracking under pressure, I think that the former should be celebrated, not the latter.

All of this is, of course, tarnished by my experience teaching in the university. We have created an environment where any sort of stress is to be avoided at all costs. Creating situations where students are stressed (like, you know, exams) is deemed harmful. I personally believe that the only way to improve oneself is by being continuously pushed beyond ones own boundaries. But now we're not supposed to do that, or students might not feel 'safe', which is the worst thing one could do to anyone apparently. I think this kind of nonsense is worse for them, yet here we are.

[Shindig]

I think it's more the grandstanding over the erm ... coming out rather than talking more deeply about the why's and when's of a person's mental state. It's like "The first step is admitting you have a problem" is the only step, at times. There's also the idea that any discussion about mental health has to be taken on eggshells. Confrontation is key in solving any problem.

I dunno. I spend my days miffed that our claimants with depression can scream, "PLEASE HELP! I AM DESPERATE!" only to watch them no-show 3 assessments.

[Spikey M]

"It's OK not to be ok" means "it's OK to reach out and get help" not "it's OK that you're suffering", and I think that's the message from the media here. "Look, an Olympic athlete is retiring to look after her mental health". I can't really see the problem.

[Pepe]

She probably thought that the best way she could help her team was by sitting out.

Which is ok, but then she should have just said that. What I heard is that she needed to focus on herself, as opposed to any concern for her teammates.

[Yevrah]

All of this is, of course, tarnished by my experience teaching in the university. We have created an environment where any sort of stress is to be avoided at all costs. Creating situations where students are stressed (like, you know, exams) is deemed harmful. I personally believe that the only way to improve oneself is by being continuously pushed beyond ones own boundaries. But now we're not supposed to do that, or students might not feel 'safe', which is the worst thing one could do to anyone apparently. I think this kind of nonsense is worse for them, yet here we are.

A mate of mine lectures undergrads and says exactly the same thing.

[randomlegend]

Very much so. The focus to this point has been about how we should look out for it, admit we have have it, talk about it etc. and not on how you actually deal with it when it hits.

Take this case, seems all very congratulatory on her 'coming out', but no actual substance on what to do beyond that.

Ok, well I don't agree that that's the message.

I see at as "mental health problems are not something you should be ashamed of" as opposed to "being mentally ill is fine, crack on".

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Which is ok, but then she should have just said that. What I heard is that she needed to focus on herself, as opposed to any concern for her teammates.

Depression is a spiral though if she thinks she's hurting her teammates chances she's going to be putting herself into a worse mindset. By taking herself out of the equation it helps them (as she probably feels that she isn't good enough to support them) but it helps herself more because she doesn't end up circling down.

[Yevrah]

Ok, well I don't agree that that's the message.

I see at as "mental health problems are not something you should be ashamed of" as opposed to "being mentally ill is fine, crack on".

I don't see the 'crack on' in your quote, just see far too much talking being encouraged than doing.

[randomlegend]

And that right there is the issue. I have no issue with her doing whatever the fuck she wants.

There are people that thrive under pressure, and others that crack under pressure. In as much as I think that thriving under pressure is a more desirable trait than cracking under pressure, I think that the former should be celebrated, not the latter.

All of this is, of course, tarnished by my experience teaching in the university. We have created an environment where any sort of stress is to be avoided at all costs. Creating situations where students are stressed (like, you know, exams) is deemed harmful. I personally believe that the only way to improve oneself is by being continuously pushed beyond ones own boundaries. But now we're not supposed to do that, or students might not feel 'safe', which is the worst thing one could do to anyone apparently. I think this kind of nonsense is worse for them, yet here we are.

You falsely conflate "not being able to handle pressure" with being mentally ill.

[Pepe]

You falsely conflate "not being able to handle pressure" with being mentally ill.

I think that the conflation is being done by others. We do not know that Simone Biles is mentally ill. All we know is that she bailed out of a high pressure situation.

[Yevrah]

You falsely conflate "not being able to handle pressure" with being mentally ill.

We do that hugely as a society though, things like burn out and stress are discussed like they're on a spectrum with actual mental illness.

[Pepe]

A mate of mine lectures undergrads and says exactly the same thing.

We even had some weirdo give a presentation on alternative assessment methods, which he started by saying that grading is fascist.

Of course, instead of being lolled off the park, he gets approving nods from most. What a world to live in.

[Yevrah]

I think that the conflation is being done by others. We do not know that Simone Biles in mentally ill. All we knows is that she bailed out of a high pressure situation.

[Yevrah]

We even had some weirdo give a presentation on alternative assessment methods, which he started by saying that grading is fascist.

Of course, instead of being lolled off the park, he gets approving nods from most. What a world to live in.

Chuck in what we're about to see on Monday and it is a truly broken World.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I think that the conflation is being done by others. We do not know that Simone Biles in mentally ill. All we knows is that she bailed out of a high pressure situation.

Considering she's been in many high pressure situations before and done just fine I'm going to take her word for it.

[randomlegend]

I don't see the 'crack on' in your quote, just see far too much talking being encouraged than doing.

Well because the actual treatments for depression are something which need to be overseen by a professional and tailored to an individual. I'm not sure what the benefit would be of them discussion the relative merits of various antidepressants on radio 1 for example.

And even then there's plenty of discussion about things people might be able to do to help themselves (mindfulness, exercise, sleep hygiene, etc).

[randomlegend]

I think that the conflation is being done by others. We do not know that Simone Biles is mentally ill. All we know is that she bailed out of a high pressure situation.

Oh right, so unless she's willing to tell everyone the ins and outs of whatever mental health diagnosis she might have then the right thing to do is to assume she's lying?

[Pepe]

What word? Has she said "I am mentally ill?" I don't think that she did, but I am not really following either?

If she is indeed mentally ill, why didn't she seek help earlier? They showed some highlights of her bottling a few of her routines during the qualifiers.

[Spikey M]

She's only won 36 medals (27 gold), she clearly just has problems coping with pressure.

[Yevrah]

And even then there's plenty of discussion about things people might be able to do to help themselves (mindfulness, exercise, sleep hygiene, etc).

And this is where we have an issue, those things are conflated with warding off actual mental illness.

[randomlegend]

We do that hugely as a society though, things like burn out and stress are discussed like they're on a spectrum with actual mental illness.

No, we recognise that over-exposure those things are risk factors for developing mental illness (which they are). That doesn't mean they are the same. It also doesn't mean all stress must be removed from the world. or even that we should aim for that.

[Lewis]

She was only doing the job then. 2021 she's got the weight of Black Girl Magic on her shoulders.

[randomlegend]

And this is where we have an issue, those things are conflated with warding off actual mental illness.

Those things do have a role in warding off actual mental illness. Not all mental illness for all people, obviously. You're not going to overcome your florid schizophrenia by going for a run, but there's good evidence that regular exercise can help with things like depression.

[Giggles]

No, we recognise that over-exposure those things are risk factors for developing mental illness (which they are). That doesn't mean they are the same. It also doesn't mean all stress must be removed from the world. or even that we should aim for that.

But where we’re heading is exactly that.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

What word? Has she said "I am mentally ill?" I don't think that she did, but I am not really following either?

If she is indeed mentally ill, why didn't she seek help earlier? They showed some highlights of her bottling a few of her routines during the qualifiers.

She has said she needed to focus on her mental health and that in the final she experienced the gymnastic equivalent of the yips.

She probably has, we have no insight into what she does in her private life.

Or she didn't think it was a problem until now and now has realised that it is.

[randomlegend]

What word? Has she said "I am mentally ill?" I don't think that she did, but I am not really following either?

If she is indeed mentally ill, why didn't she seek help earlier?

Because it isn't easy? The lack of empathy is absolutely astounding.

[Pepe]

She's only won 36 medals (27 gold), she clearly just has problems coping with pressure.

See? What the hell is this shit? When did I say that she has trouble coping with pressure? All I know is that she bailed out of a major competition. Now everyone is applauding her for doing so, because mental health is important. Who is making the assumptions here?

My stance: I do not think that people quitting in the middle of a competition that occurs every four years should be lauded as heroes.

Not that hard. I am not the one making assumptions about her mental state and whatnot.

[Yevrah]

No, we recognise that over-exposure those things are risk factors for developing mental illness (which they are).

But developing which mental illnesses though, potentially all or any of them?

The discussion needs to be far clearer and not have things like stress or burn out (which I don't think is even medically recognised) anywhere near bipolar disorder, for example.

[randomlegend]

But where we’re heading is exactly that.

Some people seem to have that as their goal, yes. That doesn't mean mental illness isn't real.

[Giggles]

Because it isn't easy? The lack of empathy is absolutely astounding.

Lack of empathy? She has most of the worlds media kissing her arse ever since.

[Pepe]

She was only doing the job then. 2021 she's got the weight of Black Girl Magic on her shoulders.

That is probably it.

[Giggles]

Some people seem to have that as their goal, yes. That doesn't mean mental illness isn't real.

It was always real, but most of the things people call mental illness these days aren’t.

[Yevrah]

Some people seem to have that as their goal, yes. That doesn't mean mental illness isn't real.

But why have that as a goal? Are people so dumb to think that if we get rid of stress then bipolar disorder won't exist?

[randomlegend]

But developing which mental illnesses though, potentially all or any of them?

The discussion needs to be far clearer and not have things like stress or burn out (which I don't think is even medically recognised) anywhere near bipolar disorder, for example.

Developing a mental illness is a complex interplay between genetics and experience which is a million miles from being well understood. Someone may be genetically predisposed to develop a mental illness under certain conditions and but never be put in a situation which brings that out. Someone else might actually be pretty genetically resilient to mental illness, but be exposed to exactly the wrong set of circumstances and develop one anyway. Hypothetical person C might be doomed to develop schizophrenia no matter what. Someone else might have survived Auschwitz and be OK.

[randomlegend]

But why have that as a goal? Are people so dumb to think that if we get rid of stress then bipolar disorder won't exist?

I don't know, you'd have to ask someone who thinks that way.

[Spikey M]

See? What the hell is this shit? When did I say that she has trouble coping with pressure? All I know is that she bailed out of a major competition. Now everyone is applauding her for doing so, because mental health is important. Who is making the assumptions here?

My stance: I do not think that people quitting in the middle of a competition that occurs every four years should be lauded as heroes.

Not that hard. I am not the one making assumptions about her mental state and whatnot.

There's no need for assumptions at all. She pulled out to look after her mental health. She said so. The end. You don't have to understand it or worship her as a hero. You don't even have to care. Some of you are really weird about the mental health of others.

[randomlegend]

Lack of empathy? She has most of the worlds media kissing her arse ever since.

What's that got to do with Pepe?

[Yevrah]

I don't know, you'd have to ask someone who thinks that way.

Fair enough.

Do you think it's constructive/useful/whatever to have all brain issues lumped under 'mental health/illness' or does it vastly oversimplify the issue?

[Pepe]

There's no need for assumptions at all. She pulled out to look after her mental health. She said so. The end. You don't have to understand it or worship her as a hero. You don't even have to care.

Indeed. Instead, even the media of other countries treat it like the greatest achievement of the competition.

[Shindig]

It's an umbrella term because most of them share symptoms. That's difficult to extrapolate.

[randomlegend]

Fair enough.

Do you think it's constructive/useful/whatever to have all brain issues lumped under 'mental health/illness' or does it vastly oversimplify the issue?

Like most things I don't think there's a simple right or wrong answer.

On the one hand, it would probably be useful to inject some nuance into the conversation. On the other, most people aren't going to have the depth of understanding of the various mental health conditions which exist to be able to make talking about them distinctly useful.

Talking about "mental health" makes it simple so you can put out clear messages which probably are relevant to all types of mental illness.

You also run into the issue of people arguing about which mental illness is "worse" or "counts" if you start trying to separate them, but then that probably happens to an extent anyway.

[Spikey M]

Indeed. Instead, even the media of other countries treat it like the greatest achievement of the competition.

You sound like one of those bitter old homophobes.

It's UNNATURAL. Disgusting. And they've got rainbow flags up in facking McDonald's like we should be saluting them?! WELL I'M NOT DOING IT! *kicks BigMac at a short-haired woman*

[randomlegend]

Indeed. Instead, even the media of other countries treat it like the greatest achievement of the competition.

Why do you care if other people celebrate her? Are you jealous or what?

[Dave.]

We're talking about them and encouraging people to talk about them more than we ever have and it's not helping, is it?

What makes you think it's "not helping"?

[Yevrah]

What makes you think it's "not helping"?

The numbers on self harm and suicide are through the roof.

[Giggles]

Why do you care if other people celebrate her? Are you jealous or what?

And likewise, are you her Ma or something?

[Yevrah]

The numbers on self harm and suicide are through the roof.

With the irony being that the internet, while being full of messages about talking about mental health is actually a huge cause of loads of the problems.

It's utterly fucked and makes me angry when I think about it.

[Pepe]

You sound like one of those bitter old homophobes.

It's UNNATURAL. Disgusting. And they've got rainbow flags up in facking McDonald's like we should be saluting them?! WELL I'M NOT DOING IT! *kicks BigMac at a short-haired woman*

And you are sounding more and more like a fucking moron.

Why do you care if other people celebrate her? Are you jealous or what?

I explained it earlier. I think that resilience is a positive trait. I think that fragility isn't. A world that encourages resilience will get more resilient people. A world that encourages fragility will get more fragile people. I would prefer to live in a world with more resilient people.

but you are conflating fragility with mental health blablabla!

Whatever.

[randomlegend]

No, I just possibly have some insight into what she might be going through.