If we'd faced France and Spain before Italy that is NOT an easy draw.
You've run mad if you can't see w had the easiest route to win a tournament we're ever going to get.
If we'd faced France and Spain before Italy that is NOT an easy draw.
You've run mad if you can't see w had the easiest route to win a tournament we're ever going to get.
He clearly gets the World Cup, but that's two tournaments running we've been booted from having taken the lead and controlled the game before capitulating. What more does he need to learn?Originally Posted by Spikey M
I mean, that simply isn't true and never has been.
This from the man who claimed Denmark looked dangerous every time they got the ball? I’m fairly sure I’m not the mad one. We literally had an easier route in the previous tournament... it’s what happens when the so called “big boys” all bottle it.
Who are you replacing him with?
We didn't, but no matter. We'd have had to beat France to win the last one and we couldn't even beat Croatia.
England beat the teams put in front of them pretty comfortably all tournament and were a penalty shoot out away from winning it all. It's been a good tournament.
I'm not. I don't work for the FA.
You're familiar with discussion.
Lads, can you not spam the thread with your dogshit post-tears analysis? I don't need to be going through it all for my nightly wanks.
Give up with football, you're a clueless armchair fan.
Hopefully the young talent we have kick on and improve the team ready for Qatar. Trent, Foden, Bellingham, Greenwood, Saka, Mount, Rice etc are all going to improve so much over the next few tournament cycles and the core of the team (Kane, Stones, Maguire etc) all have a couple more tournaments in them.
We are in the best position as a nation in my lifetime. This was a real golden chance and I wish Southgate had been more brave with his changes in that second half, it was total control and domination from Italy once we lost the initiative. If Southgate had the balls to really push on I think it would have given the players a lift.
Here is my set of scorching takes (ouch! be careful, run a cold tap over it)
1. England are not a great side but they ARE a team, which is a huge step up on the Lampard/Gerrard/Rooney/Beckham era, when we were just trying to crowbar said stars into an XI and it never, ever gelled. If we continue to approach tournaments in this way - which requires a degree of selectorial fortitude from the manager - we will continue to do well in tournaments and get past 'lesser' nations consistently. We were well balanced and possibly the only thing we lacked was an attacking thrust from midfield, as Kane was pretty isolated for a lot of the tournament. Mount played pretty much as he does for Chelsea, i.e. with great energy but sometimes lacking in precision on the ball. That area was where we didn't quite have the personnel to change things - we needed a more precise Mount, or a harder-working Grealish/Foden. Such a player does not exist at the moment.
2. Italy are also a team (one with a bit more technical ability throughout the side than us), as are Denmark. Spain were very well coached. France I thought were a bunch of individuals, several of whom erroneously think they are bigger than the sport - the likes of Pogba and Griezmann need to be phased out for the World Cup and replaced by the multitude of talent available to them. I enjoyed Ukraine, who played with great heart. France v Switzerland was one of my favourite ever matches. Italy v Spain was up there too. Hungary were a fantastic watch in the group stage and would have got out of the other five groups easily. Portugal were shit and need to bin Ronaldo. Belgium have had it. Wales did about as well as you could expect. Scotland badly need a goal threat who isn't some lumbering villager. Germany were bobbins but, like Italy, will come again.
3. The refereeing was good but also weird. I don't understand why you would have a directive not to punish foul play with the appropriate cards per the laws of the game. There is a big difference between that and letting the game flow.
4. I can sort of see the merit in moving around Europe, but it should be restricted to cities which would never normally be hosting a major tournament. Perhaps this could be done in the future with a 'theme' - e.g. Balkans 2032 you could hold in Sarajevo, Belgrade, Ljubljana, Tirana etc even if their respective teams don't qualify. The same with Scandi countries, or Scotland/Ireland/Wales, or wherever. I don't see the point in this format if you're going to have loads of games at Wembley, Rome, Munich etc.
5. Tournament football is the peak of football. Nothing in the club game can touch it.
6. I think it'll be hard for anything to top the nostalgia/quality combination of France 98 in my mind for 'best tournament I've seen', but this was up there. It was certainly better than the previous European Championship under this format. Euro 2020 managed this with very few star players, too, which is probably par for the course in the high pressing era.
7. England fans are a serious disgrace but this is only reflective of a society that has completely lost its mind. Any pretence of a social contract lies in ribbons, destroyed by the twin towers of New Labour gentrification and Tory destruction of social institutions over many decades. It appears that the England football team is the last institution able to command any sort of national unity. Even this seems to be a farce. One set of people, a set of people who sneered at Beckham and Rooney for years, claim to love 'this England team' (note: not England teams generally), because of them being 'diverse', apparently being nice people, and taking a knee. Another set of people boo the taking of a knee, are jacked up on cocaine, drunk out of their minds and going on social media to call people niggers. Among them there is a group who drink all day and want to break into Wembley without tickets. Why would such a thing ever occur in a country where they felt they had a stake in anything greater than their own day's intoxication? People go around thinking Brexit is the cause of this, but in fact Brexit is only a symptom: the groundwork for this has been laid down for decades and made up of many factors, some global, and some specific to us. I can only imagine we will fall deeper before we rise.
Closest I can think of is the Cronulla riots
I knew Jeremy Vine would be gold this morning.
Play that during the Ashes.
I'll do whatever I like thanks Bam.
Another thought I had last night that I may have already posted was, has bringing on players solely to take penalties ever worked?
The Dutch used to do it with their goalkeeper to good effect IIRC (albeit not to take the penalties, obviously)
It has worked but the players being Rashford and Sancho makes literally no sense whatsoever. Couldn’t have handpicked a less convincing duo to take a penalty.
Sterling is horrendous at penalties and kicking a football in general but he’s still a shitebag
I wouldn’t mind it if we did it so that if it goes 8 or 9 kicks deep we have a Rashford instead of Kyle Walker (sure he missed last night but he’s normally alright at them). We absolutely shouldn’t have been bringing them on to use in the first 5.
The cunt's FA coaching folder couldn't help him in reacting to in-game situations and affecting the game tactically but he went balls-deep in making those 2 subs to the extent of playing a striker at RB and risking 2 less defenders for the last minute or two of a game because he'd had a motivational talk once about 'marginal gains'. It's the sort of management you'd expect from an 8 year-old playing FM amd truly showed how out of his depth he is.
Yikes, where to begin. Obviously so much said already, but it's always worth a few more cents.
Definitely the good and the bad on show last night, much of it attributable to Southgate.
I like that he (and I guess 'his team') have thought about things and come up with a plan/hypothesis for winning tournaments - ie defensive teams tend to prosper. England are certainly a much better side when not chasing a game, as the heads tend to go very quickly (sadly somewhat on display last night at 1-1). His pragmatism in selection and, as mentioned, focus on building a winning team is laudable, however, again there are drawbacks. Building a team to defend their way to glory makes more sense if you have good defenders (by and large we don't) and/or can handle the inevitable when you get to the logical end-game of the strategy (seems we can't). I don't necessarily buy into us having a cornucopia of attacking talent going to waste, but, at the same time, our [largely] unused attacking players are probably better than their starting defensive counterparts.
I think he was somewhat ambushed by Saka's performance against the Czechs (was it)? That he became a front line selection after playing well in that game was unfortunate, he wasn't great for much of the rest of the tournament. But he's only young, has so little experience of top level football and, whilst clearly promising, isn't some sort of generational talent to be hoicked into the highest level of football willy-nilly. I'm not sure what we could have realistically expected. I thought bringing him on when he did last night was a bit crimous, and if anyone was set for the old Grealish double hook it should probably have been him over Henderson.
Henderson was fairly useless last night (he's been better coming on in the other games) and even if he's rubbish a penalties it should have been on him, as an experienced player, to take one. He is of the age that this was his tournament to win, he should have been taking responsibility.
As also said, bringing on Sancho and Rashford in the last minute was both ridiculously unfair on them, and just plain daft all round (does it ever work etc?). They should have been on at half time in extra time (well, Sancho should obviously have been on earlier when Saka came on) at the latest. Also, Walker should not have gone off. He was colossal in the whole tournament, like Henderson is of the age where he's not getting many more chances and seems the sort of 'character' you might want on a penalty even if he's objectively wank at them.
Despite the aforementioned unfairness of the situation, Rashford's penalty as poor. He's obviously been hanging around with Pogba for too long. That was not the player who took a last minute match winner against PSG for United. He seems to have regressed so much as a player of late (and I was never that big a fan of his anyway, but at least he had the ability to hit a ball hard). Writing was on the wall after that, although how England mastermind it so someone is taking their first ever professional penalty (as pointed out) as number 5 in the final of a major competition blows my mind. I guess it probably happens more often than you necessarily realise, but ours always seem to miss. I appreciate the 'let the experienced players take them' theory has been tried and failed in the past, over and over again, but at least they don't end up being harmfully scarred by the experience. Hopefully Saka doesn't. I'm sure Rashford and Sancho will be able to lol it off.
As for the players generally. I thought Pickford was really good, particularly last night. Definitely echo the sentiment that his save from Jorginho deserved to be an all time great moment. Absolutely brilliant. Shame it will be little more than a footnote now. Maguire's penalty was superb, and pretty much an embodiment of him as a player. Yeah, he has limitations (so do the Italian centre-halves) but he's a proper colossus. Elsewhere in defence I thought Walker was very good. Stones managed to not doing anything too catastrophic, but is a bit weak as a player. Shaw obviously played out of his skin but is generally limited by being fat and not really that good. Trippier, I don't really know what he does, he can't seem to take a set piece anymore and I thought that was his thing. I think in a back 3 situation we might have been better dropping Rice into there.
Onto Rice. Not been a fan of him generally. He's pretty limited, but thought he was really excellent yesterday. Probably would have had the character to maybe take a pen as well (Eric Dier style). I like Phillips, great energy and all that, but a bit green at this level. Lots of good things but lots of not so good as well. Probably the same for Mount, but I thought he was generally better than the hammering he seems to get. He's just not experienced enough at this level. I'm not sure even the best, most dynamic play-making midfielder would be able to hold it all together in such an overwhelmingly negative set-up. I think we would have benefited from Henderson playing in that he is a more progressive player [than Rice at least], but his lack of match fitness prior to the tournament, coupled with the fact that he's not exactly an outstanding player himself and the Rice/Phillips pairing 'working' [read: sort of working] meant that was never going to happen. Who else was an option in there? Seems we are still a bit limited in the middle of the park (just as in 2018 when we hand Lingard and Alli bantering about in there chasing Croatian shadows). Ah Bellingham, yeah, just turned 18.
Attack, such that it was [not a lot in Southgateball] was what you'd expect. Kane was alright, in the end, but gets isolated or abandons ship to pick up the ball deep and then you just get left a bit stuck wondering what to do. Sterling was good, but unfortunately reverted to the mean in the final and seemed to be only interested in trying to fall over and win a penalty at all times (this ref wasn't buying and it was annoying that we didn't clock this at all). No one else really got a chance. Grealish gets rolled out with 15 minutes to go with the expectation that he's some sort of modern-day Maradona who can just come on and win you the game. He's a talented lad, but he's not that good, it's unfair to put that on him. Sancho probably should have had more minutes but he's obviously not a Southgate man.
There's probably more to be said but this feels like mad rambling already.
I know Southgate is big into his NFL, maybe he should consider bringing in an offensive coordinator?
Johnson
James
Mings
Coady
Chilwell
Bellingham
Henderson
Rashford
Grealish
Sancho
Calvert-Lewin
I'd probably back that side to beat the one we put out last night.
Rashford has a great penalty record and has scored extremely high pressure ones before, like the one in the last minute against PSG which he absolutely planted in the top corner.
Bringing them on with literally a minute to go and giving them no time to get into the game before expecting them to take a penalty is dogshit management.
Grealish has come out and said he wanted to take one and it was Southgate's choice who took them. Makes it even worse.
Yeah, I didn't like that thing Southgate said about he had decided who would take them. What is 18 year old Bukayo Saka going to say to his manager when he tells him he's on the decider? He's not going to say no, is he? That's utter madness.
But then Southgate acknowledges himself that many of his decisions are heavily on him ("if I go with this approach and we don't win I'm dead" etc) [/paraphrasing].
Well Gareth, we didn't win . . .
He's a man who's said in recent times that he's still traumatised by his penalty miss and then he dumps that same potential fate on a 19 year old taking their first ever professional penalty. Just appalling management.
Also Luke Shaw is just really good, the "fat and not really that good" stuff is nonsense. Mourinho still mindgaming you
Great posts Niko.
Saka for the 5th penalty was genuine insanity, even if he had ever taken one in his life, which he hasn't. Earlier in the tournament, Spain were in a shootout (must have been vs Switzerland) and took Pedri off at 119 minutes - that's what a good manager does with a teenager. It's not fair on them. Imagine how Saka will be feeling now.
He's not 'really good'. He's a decent, competent full back. He's not fat and useless, it's just fun to chuck that at him (he's still pretty chunky). He does a job, and had a good tournament [well, had some impactful moments]. I think Chilwell is probably better, but not by a Shaw's arse, I mean large margin
STATS.
He is really good, he was excellent all last season for United after a few positional fuck ups in the first few weeks.
All the penalty business in here.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/euro-202...land-training/
I didn't notice him (Southgate) doing that last night, but fucking hell. Pickford 6th?
He had a good tournament. Like I said, he's functional, he works hard, he runs a good overlap, but he's not some match winning dynamo. In possession his first thought often feels like it is backwards [although he did well in the build-up to the goal last night when he sneaked it up to Kane].Those stats speak more of England's [rubbish defensive] approach than his particular brilliance, I would say. He's 7/10 player, which is fine.
The geezer doesn't know how to set up the most basic attacking moves that don't involve a cross it and inshallah percentage ball but he moves like a true innovator where bollocks meaningless decisions are needed.
If you just ordered them by total career goals you would get a better order. That's all a penalty is: kicking the ball into a goal.
Yep and 'Form in training' sounds like a horrendous way to do it.
How can a man who suffered so much at the hands of missing one fist it so hard?
The people claiming to like 'this England team' don't really. They're just doing well enough to have captured the wider public mood, so they have to come up with cunty reasons for suddenly caring (in many cases to keep the shit-take industry going). Oh the diversity, as if every team for twenty years hasn't been significantly darker than the country as a whole.
Form in training is mental. There are many things I can do when it doesn't matter that I absolutely couldn't do with millions of people watching me and hanging all of their homes and dreams on.
I see Donnurumma got player of the tournament. It feels like it was a better tournament than giving that to a 'keeper, but then he was good.
Had a go at the beeb's slightly bizarre team of the tournament thing [bizarre in it's limited options - you can pick Grealish if you want, but not Verratti or Barella]
https://team-picker.files.bbci.co.uk...14fc6ff0b.html
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Just catching up.
@Spikey And that's without mentioning that Rashford and Sancho didn't have a kick in the game, having waited for two hours with all the adrenaline building, before the most important kicks of their lives.
I understand the idea of having a plan for penalties but not to change it based on what's actually happened on the night seems way off.
Despite that, Southgate deserves massive credit for the tournament overall. There were countless decisions he got spot on, from including Maguire in the squad to starting Saka for the first time to matching Germany's shape, etc. Perhaps even more impressive is how he's led a team into shaking off the expectation and weight of pressure. Before the shootout last night, we've looked a mentally strong team for the last two tournaments.
I felt unexpectedly gutted this morning but it's far from all doom and gloom.
@Niko That's a shame, Sterling should have got player of the tournament.
Is there any rule about named subs having to sit on the bench / remain pitchside? I'm imagining some kind of bullpen situation within Wembley where they can go and warm up by slamming penalties into a net.
That should so happen.
The other thing I forgot to say about Southgate and his plans, is that good as they are in terms of pragmatism and the like, it is genuinely painful to watch as you can see it unraveling but the [his] thinking remains that it's still going alright (Italy have all the ball but they haven't scored yet, well, ok now they've scored but it's still 1-1) - felt like in both games that went to ET we were in a state of semi-paralysis in the final 10 minutes just wanting to get there [I know we were bossing Denmark - but the original plan/structure was still very much in effect].
The score too early cliché is obviously just that, and England are past masters at it, but it was the case yesterday. They wanted the Germany model. Shit it out for 75 minutes and then take the lead and cling-on. Italy having to change to be more proactive was a massive hindrance. They'd have probably not done that at 0-0.
I have a very clear memory of Klinsmann at half time saying 'Now England have to push for the second goal' and thinking yeah, we're not going to, and that's why Germany win things and we don't.
Agreed. Defending all throughout after the goal was the right call. Need to work on being more threatening on the counter though.
Neutrals "supporting" someone are fucking morons.
I forgot the next World Cup was in Qatar. I’d have fancied England to do well again if it wasn’t there
It's in the winter so it'll only be about 40c at night.
Oh and I liked the refereeing. I don't like red cards on important matches.
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