News of the day

[Spikey M]

I mostly agree with you. Where I part with your view is the bit about the lunatic fringe being powerless. We started this conversation because a male rapist had started transitioning and was being kept in a female prison, and the Primeminister of Scotland thought that was ok until there were protesters at the door pointing out the dangers of that.

I absolutely take your point on how hard it must be to be openly trans. I think I've said before about the treatment a Trans couple have been receiving from their neighbours at work. It's honestly horrific. But it isn't helped by idiots like Nicola Sturgeon giving the Daily Mail easy headlines. That rapist, even after transitioning, should not be in a woman's prison.

[Ben]

I'll need Nick Ross to introduce a reconstruction of this one. Very strange.

EDIT: out the way you

[Ben]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64489145

Water now going up record amounts.

I know the comments sections are always pish but they're very pro-nationalisation/anti-corporation on a lot of things now, including this. I can't say they used to be this unanimous. Public opinion definitely seems to be shifting (YouGov polls reflecting this too). I suppose Shell announces record profits this morning got them all riled up for this one.

[Ian]

Away from the culture wars, this one's a bit mysterious: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-64482201

How easy is it to just off yourself and not be found for days in those circumstances?

The phone bit is a headscratcher. Leaving it on a work call is reasonable way for your colleagues to not notice you've gone walkabout but if that's part of a premeditated plan why not do that but hide it somewhere too?

Curious.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Public opinion is all very well but to sort all these things out with the population as it is (10 million more people live here now than they did when water was privatised) as well as NHS funding, public sector pay, schools etc people will have to accept enormous hikes in general taxation. I haven't seen that question even put to people, let alone be affirmed.

[Ben]

The rise in tax would in theory be less than the reduction in bills, because you're not supplementing some fat cat extortionate profits.

[Lewis]

Weird how such a simple formula failed every industry it was ever applied to in this country.

[niko_cee]

The missing woman is definitely an odd one, particularly how the police seem to have been briefing from the off that this isn't an abduction situation.

[Jimmy Floyd]

My first guess was she was eloping in a pre-arranged fashion, but that also wouldn't tally with them getting the scuba divers out, as they presumably have access to her phone records and so on.

I don't see how you could lob yourself in the river without leaving a trace.

[niko_cee]

You'd have to be some sort of mentalist to drop your kids at school and then just casually saunter off into another life. Although, actually, thinking about it . . .

[randomlegend]

Public opinion is all very well but to sort all these things out with the population as it is (10 million more people live here now than they did when water was privatised) as well as NHS funding, public sector pay, schools etc people will have to accept enormous hikes in general taxation. I haven't seen that question even put to people, let alone be affirmed.

It would also help if so much money wasn't literally just pissed up the wall by morons/corrupt morons.

[Spikey M]

If you were abandoning your family I think you'd leave the dog at home. I don't think you'd set it free in a field then chuck your phone on the floor.

It's either a major mental health issue that's seen her run off / do herself in or someone has kidnapped / murdered her

[niko_cee]

First thing to obviously check is if there were any MET police officers in the region at the time.

[Spikey M]

The WhatsApp group is currently blowing up.

[Lofty]

Has JK Rowling actually said anything evil? I thought she was annoyed about the 'people who menstruate' thing and then nutters started doxxing her address.

The rapist tranny has definitely, er, had Sturgeon and co's pants down, wont be the last to conveniently transition when the chips are down.

The missing woman I still think her dog has gone into the river, got stuck, she's gone in after and predictably the dog ended up fine whilst she was washed away.

[Yevrah]

the point is that while attempts at more "inclusive" language are often a bit embarrassing and clumsy, they're not actually DEMANDING it. exaggerating for effect or otherwise, the way the likes of yev and spikey talk about it makes it sound like this is some serious #thoughtcrime thing where the loony left woke police are going round and actually insisting that people use such language. the reality is that certain organisations and companies unilaterally decided to do so, then terfy people and the right wing press picked up on it and said it was a threat to women or something, and then you lot regurgitate it like it's actually true.

it's exactly the same as companies deciding to use the phrases that avoid the word "Christmas" and the daily mail claiming that you will indeed be locked up in prison for saying your English Christmas.

No it's not the same at all. People are being cancelled or having huge amounts of abuse thrown at them for daring to disagree with the notions put forward, most of which are absolute nonsense. Nonsense which you appear to have fallen foul of, categorising people as "terfy people" as you have.

And of course, this whole movement brought about a culture where it was ok to mutilate children, hundreds if not thousands of children.

[Pepe]

Has JK Rowling actually said anything evil?

Of course not.

[Yevrah]

yes I do see where you're coming from, and I do acknowledge that you are indeed not a fascist. the problem as I see it is that too often the #discourse acts like this "balance" isn't clearly weighted against trans people. a group of people more discriminated against, marginalised and simply misunderstood than any other in the UK at the moment I'd guess.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that trans people aren't treated in the ways you suggest, but this sure as shit is not the way you fix that.

[Yevrah]

Of course not.

I wondered the same to myself last night, having not particularly cared about what she had been saying or the response to it until recently. So if Igor would like to furnish us with some of these evil comments I'm all ears.

EDIT: Can't see that igor said they were evil comments, so let's go with disagreeable.

[John Arne]

Internet is pretty good and cheap here nowadays, however, we are limited by a certain number of connections to the outside world, 5 to be precise. 4 of which are currently damaged due to shite maintenance and generally fuckery.



It's like downloading mp3's from Limewire.

[SvN]

The missing woman I still think her dog has gone into the river, got stuck, she's gone in after and predictably the dog ended up fine whilst she was washed away.

The people who found the dog say he was bone dry.

I can't make any sense of it. From the photos, it doesn't look like the sort of place where she could be dead somewhere and just not found.

[niko_cee]

The phone also precludes it being some sort of accident, surely. If you were going to fall in a river you wouldn't leave your phone on a bench.

[Spikey M]

The phone also precludes it being some sort of accident, surely. If you were going to fall in a river you wouldn't leave your phone on a bench.

It says it was in the grass near a bench.

Edit: no it doesn't. That was the dog.

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8640...!7i6912!8i3456

That is roughly the spot where her phone was found, I guess she could have just fallen in the river if the dog ran down the slope, or whatever, but surely there would be a trace of that.

[Ian]

Internet is pretty good and cheap here nowadays, however, we are limited by a certain number of connections to the outside world, 5 to be precise. 4 of which are currently damaged due to shite maintenance and generally fuckery.



It's like downloading mp3's from Limewire.

In an old job I sometimes had to deal with customers overseas whose service would be affected by undersea cables and you'd get some phenomenally stupid / hopelessly optimistic questions.

"The fault has just been identified as being with an undersea cable."
"Oh right. And is this likely to be fixed by tomorrow?"

Yeah mate it's dead easy to deal with, we'll send Dave down just now.

[John Arne]

Could you send Dave to Nam?

[Disco]

Where's that paedo with a submarine when you need him.

[Spikey M]

Where's that paedo with a submarine when you need him.

In a lake kidnapping dogwalkers.

[Lofty]

The people who found the dog say he was bone dry.

I can't make any sense of it. From the photos, it doesn't look like the sort of place where she could be dead somewhere and just not found.

What breed was it? My labrador dries off remarkably quickly due to her extra coat, 10 minutes after swimming she'd be dry.

[Spikey M]

Spaniel.

[Raoul Duke]

The woman who disappeared will have been croaked by her husband. It's always them

[Lewis]

Meanwhile the Aussies aren't putting KC3 on their money [not that his mum featured that heavily on it].

Something about the whole 'first nations people' stuff really winds me up. I think it was probably being forced to study it as part of property law. Fuck Mabo, Milirrpum and the Torres Strait Islanders.

Mate mate the Oldest Continuing Culture on Earth mate.

[mikem]

No it's not the same at all. People are being cancelled or having huge amounts of abuse thrown at them for daring to disagree with the notions put forward, most of which are absolute nonsense. Nonsense which you appear to have fallen foul of, categorising people as "terfy people" as you have.

And of course, this whole movement brought about a culture where it was ok to mutilate children, hundreds if not thousands of children.

Always fun how when celebrities say political things we agree with “they are attacked and cancelled”. And when they say political things we don’t agree with “They should shut up.” Entertainment companies don’t care about entertainers views outside of how those views impacts sales or are predicted to impact sales.

And who are all these “cancelled” celebs? Rowling? Are there not studios spending tens of millions turning detective novels nobody read into a tv show? Or 100’s of millions on prequels that lose money? Chapelle clearly isn’t saying whatever he is saying while getting paid millions by Netflix. Oh, wait …. He is. Same with the countless other freethinking contrarian comedians out there who all have the same views. But yes, they are being criticized and often loudly, profanely, and hysterically.

Why are we not equally concerned that Against Me! are not being promoted as the next big band. Fronted by a trans woman and pop punk is currently cool, so clearly all the money in the world is behind it. Oh wait, no it is not. Is she being “cancelled” due to her views? Why are churches not booking her? Isn’t that the cancel culture? And I am sure she has never gotten any heated criticism on the internet. Look, I don’t even know her name, that is just how deep I have pull to find a trans celeb. I’m sure you will all tell me about all the trans actors taking all the white male roles the way male actors used to play trans characters.

We are also all aware that the lead singer of Against Me! is far more likely to face verbal abuse just living their life, far more likely to face physical violence, is more likely to be murdered, and probably less likely to have the murder solved. But, of course, someone somewhere got criticized for views we align with - which is the important thing.

[Lofty]

Jim Davidson and Michael Barrymore were cancelled, to be fair.

[mikem]

Jim Davidson and Michael Barrymore were cancelled, to be fair.

Fair enough, never heard of them.

[Disco]

Barrymore bummed a man to death and let him drown him in his pool, I'd say that's fair grounds for criticism.

[Spikey M]

And Davidsons stand up felt like a similar ordeal.

[randomlegend]

And of course, this whole movement brought about a culture where it was ok to mutilate children, hundreds if not thousands of children.

You know this doesn't happen, right?

[Yevrah]

You know this doesn't happen, right?

What's your understanding of what happened at Tavistock and why it was closed?

[randomlegend]

What's your understanding of what happened at Tavistock and why it was closed?

What's yours? Puberty blockers are not "mutilation" (in my opinion or, I would've thought, by most people's definition of the word).

My assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think "hundreds if not thousands" of children are having transition surgery, and they aren't, because legally they can't.

[Shindig]

We had an email today mentioning a cancer prevention charity. In particular, they described cervical cancer as effecting, "People with a cervix." I can't help but think that sentence took longer to draw up than it needed.

[Yevrah]

Always fun how when celebrities say political things we agree with “they are attacked and cancelled”. And when they say political things we don’t agree with “They should shut up.” Entertainment companies don’t care about entertainers views outside of how those views impacts sales or are predicted to impact sales.

And who are all these “cancelled” celebs? Rowling? Are there not studios spending tens of millions turning detective novels nobody read into a tv show? Or 100’s of millions on prequels that lose money? Chapelle clearly isn’t saying whatever he is saying while getting paid millions by Netflix. Oh, wait …. He is. Same with the countless other freethinking contrarian comedians out there who all have the same views. But yes, they are being criticized and often loudly, profanely, and hysterically.

Why are we not equally concerned that Against Me! are not being promoted as the next big band. Fronted by a trans woman and pop punk is currently cool, so clearly all the money in the world is behind it. Oh wait, no it is not. Is she being “cancelled” due to her views? Why are churches not booking her? Isn’t that the cancel culture? And I am sure she has never gotten any heated criticism on the internet. Look, I don’t even know her name, that is just how deep I have pull to find a trans celeb. I’m sure you will all tell me about all the trans actors taking all the white male roles the way male actors used to play trans characters.

We are also all aware that the lead singer of Against Me! is far more likely to face verbal abuse just living their life, far more likely to face physical violence, is more likely to be murdered, and probably less likely to have the murder solved. But, of course, someone somewhere got criticized for views we align with - which is the important thing.

The amount of assumptions in this are outstanding. You're not reading the words I've written and responding to them, but reading the words I've written and attaching the views you think I must hold because anybody not aligned with your thinking must feel that way, right?

But I'll break it down anyway:

The cancelled thing - I wasn't even referring to celebrities. Take Kathleen Stock, resigned from her job at Sussex Uni after her life became hell when she aired her views:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...der-rights-row

Earlier this month Stock said she had been told by police to stay away from campus

Her crime?

She has said she believes gender identity does not outweigh biological sex “when it comes to law and policy”, and that people cannot change their biological sex.

The horror of it.

Trans Celebs

The reason you have to pull deep to find a trans celeb is because less than 0.4% of the country actually are. I can name two and I'd probably struggle to name 560 actual celebs in the UK so the representation seems fine on that score. Maybe more haven't hit the limelight because they've been battling personally with what must be an incredibly difficult choice and process to go through.

We are also all aware that the lead singer of Against Me! is far more likely to face verbal abuse just living their life, far more likely to face physical violence, is more likely to be murdered, and probably less likely to have the murder solved.

I'm not disputing this, but how are we going to stop that then? Hounding a Woman off a University campus sure as hell won't.

And maybe no one's booking Against Me! because they're shit.

[Yevrah]

What's yours? Puberty blockers are not "mutilation" (in my opinion or, I would've thought, by most people's definition of the word).

My assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think "hundreds if not thousands" of children are having transition surgery, and they aren't, because legally they can't.

I was referring to puberty blockers. Mutilation might be a strong way to put it, but they have long lasting implications, right?

[niko_cee]

"Might be a strong way to put it"

[Yevrah]

And I feel like this needs saying because you know, but I have no problem with trans people whatsoever, it's the idiots that have attached themselves to this movement that I've thoroughly had enough of. They never seem to be trans themselves (so how the fuck they're best placed to pick up the torch is beyond me), they have a thoroughly unreasonable set of demands that are never satisfied and (as Spikey said upthread) they're doing damage to the cause they claim to so support now as a result.

If they'd left it at "a trans woman is a woman" we could all have disagreed internally but nodded and smiled. They didn't, so essentially a stand needs to be taken, for the good of everyone.

[Yevrah]

"Might be a strong way to put it"

Effects of puberty blockers

If you were assigned male at birth, puberty blockers will stop or limit:

growth of facial and body hair
deepening of the voice
broadening of the shoulders
growth of Adam’s apple
growth of gonads (testes) and erectile tissue (penis)
If you were assigned female at birth, puberty blockers will stop or limit:

breast tissue development
broadening of the hips
monthly bleeding

In both cases, puberty blockers will temporarily stop or limit:

growth in height
development of sex drive
impulsive, rebellious, irritable or risk-taking behaviour
accumulation of calcium in the bones
fertility

Doesn't seem a millions miles away from mutilation being a good description...

http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child...kers-for-youth

[mikem]

The amount of assumptions in this are outstanding. You're not reading the words I've written and responding to them, but reading the words I've written and attaching the views you think I must hold because anybody not aligned with your thinking must feel that way, right?

But I'll break it down anyway:

The cancelled thing - I wasn't even referring to celebrities. Take Kathleen Stock, resigned from her job at Sussex Uni after her life became hell when she aired her views:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...der-rights-row



Her crime?



The horror of it.

Trans Celebs

The reason you have to pull deep to find a trans celeb is because less than 0.4% of the country actually are. I can name two and I'd probably struggle to name 560 actual celebs in the UK so the representation seems fine on that score. Maybe more haven't hit the limelight because they've been battling personally with what must be an incredibly difficult choice and process to go through.



I'm not disputing this, but how are we going to stop that then? Hounding a Woman off a University campus sure as hell won't.

And maybe no one's booking Against Me! because they're shit.

My point about Against Me! is that it would be absurd to think they were a victim of cancel culture because they are purposefully loud and political. This is true of every celebrity who is political. It is commerce and not cancel culture.

And yes, there are instances in academia where people face death threats for their political views or scholarship. I’d be more surprised if you couldn’t find a few academics facing similar for their views on Israel / Palestine, race, gender, abortion in the US, or a number of other controversial subjects. Shouldn’t matter what their views are but it happens because some topics are political hot topics. It is a negative to engaging in political speech. It isn’t unique to trans issues. It it more than for other similarly charged political topics? No clue.

But my question is this: “Why are trans issues in political and public discourse always issues that affect the mainstream?” Why is it about cancel culture or bathrooms or academia? There is a quite extraordinary speech from the conservative governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, that happened during debate and laws regards trans participation in sports.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics...-spencer-coxs/

I recommend the entire speech from someone I’d never vote for but I’ll highlight the closing paragraphs on the stats of the “transgender sports issue in Utah” and comes to the conclusion that he’d like the “kids to live.”

It seems to me in these debates that this issue is always subordinated to issues that annoy us. And it may be more important.

[Lewis]

And I feel like this needs saying because you know, but I have no problem with trans people whatsoever, it's the idiots that have attached themselves to this movement that I've thoroughly had enough of. They never seem to be trans themselves (so how the fuck they're best placed to pick up the torch is beyond me), they have a thoroughly unreasonable set of demands that are never satisfied and (as Spikey said upthread) they're doing damage to the cause they claim to so support now as a result.

If they'd left it at "a trans woman is a woman" we could all have disagreed internally but nodded and smiled. They didn't, so essentially a stand needs to be taken, for the good of everyone.

I don't have a 'problem' with transgenders. If wearing stripper heels or cutting your tits off is your best chance at a bit of happiness then crack on; but a man in a dress is a man in a dress, and they should be treated accordingly - including being given actual help for their mental condition[s], rather than just being railroaded into permanent physical changes.

[Lofty]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64495564

Giving it big licks in the paper about his garlic bread

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://www.leprogres.fr/economie/20...n-de-ses-reves

There he is. Trust the French to get taken in by heartfelt tales of gastronomy.