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Thread: The Cricket Thread

  1. #7851
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    1 Murali
    2 McGrath
    3 Warne
    4 Ambrose
    5 Walsh
    6 Hadlee
    7 Steyn

    There have been 'better' bowlers for shorter periods (Pat Cummins is on unbelievable pace) but my method rewards longevity/remaining good, though not quite by as much as the 'who has the most wickets' method.

  2. #7852
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Yeah I was looking at the stats for them earlier when somebody commented on Kumble and could see that whole McGrath has less wickets than Anderson now his stats show him to have been consistently better. I don't remember that much of him as he retired a couple of years after I got into it.

  3. #7853
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    I'm trying to think of a comparable modern bowler to Glenn McGrath. There isn't really one - maybe a taller, better Vernon Philander? He used to just run up totally within himself, bowl totally within himself, wasn't amazingly quick, but was completely disciplined/accurate and jagged it around off the seam. He was immense and destroyed us time after time, home and away. Any time he played at Lord's you could basically write it off as a heavy loss.

    He got Atherton out 19 times. One of his best spells was this from the 2005 Ashes - all the other Tests from that series get replayed all the time in England but not this one. After this he trod on a ball in the warm-up, missed the next three Tests, and otherwise Australia would have won 4-0 rather than losing 2-1.


  4. #7854
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    I'm sure there's a video on Youtube "McGrath's best ever spell" or something I saw ages ago where basically every ball landed on the exact same spot or line or something just on the 'corridor of uncertainty."

    The fifth delivery in that video you've posted is pretty fucking sexy.

  5. #7855
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    When thinking of mine, not that I have ever really done so I had 6 of your 7 in my head Jim. I went for Kumble over Hadlee but that was more recency bias that anything else.

  6. #7856
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Most people would have Wasim Akram (11th) up there, and Malcolm Marshall (9th) too. Shaun Pollock in 10th is probably quite underrated.

  7. #7857
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Unrelated other than to great cricketers but during the rain break in the last test Sky showed a bit about the great Windies team and England touring there in 1990 or whenever it was (presumably because they couldn't film anything new about Sri Lanka) and is it my imagination or was every one of that Windies a massive, muscular brick shithouse?

    On the footage I saw it felt like all of them were Vince McMahon wet dreams who could, if they so desired, kick your head in with ease.

  8. #7858
    Man(c) of the People igor_balis's Avatar
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    Cricket web's forums had some bloke do a few REALLY intense and involved "best test seamer/batter/spinner/etc.." threads, he had some ALGORITHMS. I will link when I find them, they were great.

  9. #7859
    Man(c) of the People igor_balis's Avatar
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    http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/thre...d-100-1.78907/

    He had:

    Toggle Spoiler

    Thoughts lads?

    Especially @Jimmy Floyd

  10. #7860
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    No Simon Kerrigan? Disgusting.

  11. #7861
    Man(c) of the People igor_balis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    No Simon Kerrigan? Disgusting.
    The algorithm isn't perfect, sorry.

    It's a terrific read of a thread though, would highly recommend.

  12. #7862
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Interesting read. The calculation I use is simpler than his (deliberately so as I think you can introduce too much subjectivity) and definitely favours post-1980 players more than his does, but I'm quite happy with that as I take the approach that Barnes's Test career (while producing silly numbers) was quite limited compared to the complete challenge faced by a modern player, so I wouldn't want to reward him unnecessarily for not that many repeats of his similar excellent performances. The same thing means I have Bradman 13th among batsmen but that doesn't mean I don't think he wasn't subjectively the greatest ever (he was), but that his career is only the 13th most impressive/productive.

    Similarly, I wouldn't agree with having a home/away weighting as, you know, a win's a win wherever it is. Jimmy Anderson's 6/40 today might have been more unexpected at Galle but it still counts for the same as 6/40 at Headingley. The variable I would prefer to have (and have tried to introduce to mine but binned it as I'm not good enough at maths/can't code) would be a weighting for the batting average per venue and per era - so while I have Sangakkara 3rd among batsmen, he might suffer a bit for having done a lot of it on Colombo featherbeds in a relatively high average era.

    I also don't agree with adding in 'great performances' - the whole point of trying to isolate someone's contribution is that you're taking it as a whole, not rewarding them for being great sometimes and shit at other times. Sometimes it feels like somebody has delivered a 'match winning spell', but have they really? 20 wickets need to be taken to win a match and a hell of a lot of runs need to be scored. A match winning spell is usually about 0.2-0.3 of a win in reality. As such my method does reward churners like Kallis more than my aesthetic preferences would like, but ultimately I think that's because they really did make a great aggregate contribution. Joe Root is a bit like that with all his unconverted fifties - he does get to fifty, nonetheless, a hell of a lot.

    My top 20 bowlers by wins generated above replacement is:

    1 Murali 15.19
    2 McGrath 11.52
    3 Warne 10.85
    4 Ambrose 8.65
    5 Walsh 8.64
    6 Hadlee 8.43
    7 Steyn 8.20
    8 Anderson 8.06 (before this game)
    9 Marshall 8.05
    10 Pollock 7.77
    11 Wasim Akram 7.35
    12 Imran Khan 6.83
    13 Waqar Younis 6.66
    14 Donald 6.48
    15 Trueman 6.31
    16 Broad 6.30
    17 Lillee 6.16
    18 Kumble 5.91
    19 Ashwin 5.71
    20 Garner 5.53
    (21 Barnes 5.21)

    Good to see we're agreed on one thing though which is Murali pisses on everyone - highly underappreciated cricketer, imo, even though he is very appreciated.

  13. #7863
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Unrelated other than to great cricketers but during the rain break in the last test Sky showed a bit about the great Windies team and England touring there in 1990 or whenever it was (presumably because they couldn't film anything new about Sri Lanka) and is it my imagination or was every one of that Windies a massive, muscular brick shithouse?

    On the footage I saw it felt like all of them were Vince McMahon wet dreams who could, if they so desired, kick your head in with ease.
    Their quicks were mainly tall (especially Garner, though he had retired by then), though Malcolm Marshall wasn't and still prospered. I'm not sure how physically big Viv was/is but his swagger and presence were absurd, and even the spinner Roger Harper was massive. That whole era of West Indies cricket is one of the biggest freaks in sporting history. Tiny, tiny islands churning out all time greats by the bucketload. Viv, Curtly, Richardson all from Antigua population 80,000.

  14. #7864
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    I can't remember the exact number but they said how many series the Windies either won in a row or certainly went without losing one and when you see now how much playing away can hurt even the best test teams that record just sounded absurd to me, almost impossible.

  15. #7865
    Senior Member Max Power's Avatar
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    Wasim and Marshall are the two that have always been alluring to me despite being before my time. Having the complete skill set a fast bowler could want - ability to get you out with any method in any conditions.

  16. #7866
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    I was surprised Wasim didn't come up higher in my thing but (like many Asian players, actually) he probably cost himself a bit by going on a bit too long when he was old.

    Marshall would be top 5 with another 20 games. The thing that struck me was Hadlee, who gets overlooked due to being a Kiwi and not even playing in a good NZ team like the modern day one, but Jesus his record is incredible.

  17. #7867
    Senior Member hfswjyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by igor_balis View Post
    http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/thre...d-100-1.78907/

    He had:

    Toggle Spoiler

    Thoughts lads?

    Especially @Jimmy Floyd
    Rabada sticks out like a sore thumb on that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    I was surprised Wasim didn't come up higher in my thing but (like many Asian players, actually) he probably cost himself a bit by going on a bit too long when he was old.

    Marshall would be top 5 with another 20 games. The thing that struck me was Hadlee, who gets overlooked due to being a Kiwi and not even playing in a good NZ team like the modern day one, but Jesus his record is incredible.
    I think Hadlee benefited from being the only world class player in a non-world class team. No one else was really going to take the wickets. His best bowling partner was Ewen Chatfield, who I've just learned on Wikipedia has most recently been working as a taxi driver in Wellington.

  18. #7868
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Last I heard of Ewen Chatfield he was still playing club cricket, or only just retiring (2 years ago).

  19. #7869
    Senior Member hfswjyr's Avatar
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    Since retiring from first-class cricket, Chatfield has had a variety of jobs. He coached the Hutt Valley association until they merged with Wellington, worked in a chip shop, was a courier and drove a van for a dairy. He also mowed lawns, and in 2009 was working as a taxi driver in Wellington.
    Sounds a bit rough for a professional sportsperson. He's also 70 now.

    Apparently Chris Cairns was working as a window washer a few years ago.

  20. #7870
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    Flat line as the ball passes the bat . . .

    Erm?

  21. #7871
    Administrator Kikó's Avatar
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    Arf, Atherton has thankfully brought this video to my attention:


  22. #7872
    Senior Member Max Power's Avatar
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    Ha I searched it the moment he said it as well. Sniper in the crowd.

    Root looks utterly imperious at the moment. Hopefully can take this into India.

  23. #7873
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    We should get absolutely buttfucked in India, Root/Anderson are the only things standing between us and an innings humiliation in this one.

    The only saving grace is that Ravi Jadeja is out injured.

  24. #7874
    Senior Member Max Power's Avatar
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    Maybe it’s a good thing it appears to not be on TV? Rumours of Disney + having the rights but not confirmed yet. Bit odd.

  25. #7875
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    The subcontinental way is to thrash out deals at the last minute. They're probably trying to flog it back to Sky for a premium.

  26. #7876
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    Embuldeniya making some effort here. That six down the ground earlier was lovely.

    Be surprised if he lasts longer than Lakmal though

  27. #7877
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Pleased to see we don't have, in theory, a huge amount to chase but I'm a bit worried about what their spinners are gonna do if ours have managed to take ten wickets.

    And lol at the nick of that last wicket.
    Last edited by Ian; 25-01-2021 at 08:16 AM.

  28. #7878
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Sri Lanka getting bowled out for 126 by our spinners is a war crime.

  29. #7879
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    Each ball is just theatre right now. Really enjoying watching Sibley trying to defend the spinners in a weird, masochistic way.

  30. #7880
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Sibley played against my club about 6 years ago in a league game. We entered the game with 4 seamers and a left arm spinner. Sibley scored 160* in about 35 overs before it rained, and the left arm spinner still went at 2.5 an over.

  31. #7881
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    As tough as it is for him, this will be the best way to learn. Hopefully we can see some improvement throughout these two tours. He was making a pointed effort to sweep and get a few singles to rotate the strike before tea.

  32. #7882
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    This could be about to get a bit tasty.

  33. #7883
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    164 is a terrifying chase. Need Buttler to get about 60 of these 75 rapido rapido.

  34. #7884
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Dickwella just asked Sibley if he's going to open in India and Sibley responded "I dunno, I've not had a very good series."

  35. #7885
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    That's the confident machismo I want to see from an English opening bat.

  36. #7886
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Never in doubt.

    Pleased for Sibley.

    Root currently 100% as captain in Asia....

  37. #7887
    Senior Member Queenslander's Avatar
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    England beating India in India would feel pretty good atm.

  38. #7888
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    So would Jeff Bezos knocking on my door and telling me there's been a terrible mistake and in fact I am entitled to his full net worth, but I doubt it's going to happen.

  39. #7889
    Senior Member Queenslander's Avatar
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    But your key players playing well and a bit of luck and boom 2-1.

    Indian Australian people will stop bullying me about the cricket.

    If it isnt the Kiwis it is the Indians bloody brutal down here atm.
    Last edited by Queenslander; 25-01-2021 at 12:04 PM.

  40. #7890
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    This presentation is just this fella reading out a series of cheque values.

  41. #7891
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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  42. #7892
    Senior Member Queenslander's Avatar
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    Your kits are yellow?

  43. #7893
    Senior Member Queenslander's Avatar
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    I miss Richie.


  44. #7894
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queenslander View Post
    Your kits are yellow?
    Huh, y'know I hadn't really noticed it but on the pictures on the live text and that one there they do look it....

  45. #7895
    Senior Member Queenslander's Avatar
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    I wonder why?

  46. #7896
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    Jim might remember it better than me but I am like 99% sure they called it a return to the more traditional cream colour that used to be worn as whites were never that white.

    Pretty sure when I played junior cricket (talking almost 20 years ago now) they were never the sort of bright white they wear today.

  47. #7897
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Kit is the one area of cricket that holds zero interest for me, but yes they are a cack-handed attempt at replicating pre-2000s 'creams'.

    The bright white is a relatively recent thing brought in by sports brand manufacturers / sponsors as the logos show up better.

  48. #7898
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    It may have been an advertising thing, I'm not sure, but a woman in the ground at the Pakistan / South Africa test seemsto have just won a prize for beating her fella at noughts and crosses.

  49. #7899
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Pakistan totally unable to deal with Rabada so far here.

  50. #7900
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Just turned on the Pakistan / Saffers game to see them showing highlights of this at lunch:
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...full-scorecard

    Our second innings in particular. Set 145 to win. 72 all out. A valiant effort from The Big Cheese but I can't for the life of me remember why Trott was coming out at 7. Injury?

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