Patriotism

[Jimmy Floyd]

The reason we have a 'strange obsession' with WW2 is that we had a unique experience in it - bombed, starved, battered, but never conquered, and ultimately (on the back of USA/USSR) victorious - which conditioned that entire generation (and, more potently, their kids) to believe in a form of exceptionalism.

In fact, the obsession is not strange in the slightest.

The rest of western Europe were either Nazis, or were conquered/occupied by Nazis, which is a different national experience altogether and I imagine provoked a lot more humility and also shame.

[Giggles]

Plus it’s one of the only times in history where in general you’re not the “bad guys”.

[Shindig]

Russia hangs on to Soviet iconography and sensibilities just as much. Hell, America loves God and the flag.

[Kikó]

I say this as someone who has stood in their offices (the fact that they have offices is a fucking giveaway to begin with), but it's just all wrong and far too earnest. England cricket is not something to be supported like that, trying to make it about you. They basically trail around the world, lording it over mostly poorer countries that we once colonised, and expecting them to love our cringeworthy banter.

To support English cricket properly you have to be a moaning, cynical fuck who basically hates them. The team doesn't exist to be loved. Every time that Billy the trumpeter (I've met him as well, fml) comes on those Sky retrospective things wide-eyed saying 'Oh, mate, the Aussies, they were hating it, and then Freddie and Stokesy did this, and then Jimmy bowled him out' I just think for goodness sake, you're getting cricket wrong.

Those people who think cricket is about cricket ...

You're the cricket manc sean.

[Lee]

I agree. But, there is something about what we do with the flag and national identity - particularly the English. It's always about the past, and so rarely about the present. It's 1066, the Empire and the World Wars, it's the old darlings that are backbone of Britain. In Wales and Scotland, that's less prevalent - their identities are more forged in shared social values and experience, and more timeless - particularly so in Wales. I saw this the other day, and couldn't help but feel it well articulated one aspect I've long felt very uncomfortable with -

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I agree with all of that. I find all sorts of things odd, like obsession with WW2 and pride in the royal family. I don’t really have any interest in those things. When I think of patriotism I think of fish and chips, cosy pubs, football, theatre. It’s about the shared cultural experience, the way we do things. It’s not a claim to be unique, or better than other countries. As Jimmy said in the post I originally responded to, it isn’t about institutions. It’s about enjoying the things we all participate in which make us slightly different, which help us form an identity. And when I say say ‘different’ I don’t mean the English are different to everybody else and somehow special. I mean it in the way that the Germans are slightly different from the French are slightly different from the Italians are slightly different from......you get the point.

You can choose not to engage with the war stuff, or people getting teary eyes at a royal wedding. That stuff does nothing for me either. You can fimd your own way of identifying with a wider community or idea in a way that feels positive to you.

[Lewis]

Everything baldy says in that interview could be turned back on him and his fellows. If the Second World War is the foundations of English exceptionalism, then so it is with the European Union believing itself to have brought peace to the continent, making its existence and propagation an unqualified good (for itself and its core members). You might call it myth-making, and misplaced nostalgia for the enlightened federalism of previous decades. His inability to see that might be considered to be deeply psychological, even obsessive.

[Mellberg]

I agree. He's a boring cunt.

[Lewis]

Then, more recent feelings regarding English and Britishness are certainly the opposite of patriotic... I've never felt so detached from most of the rest of the nation as the last 6 years living in Bristol and London. It's quite clear, that save for Scotland, the rest of the UK is very differently (in significance, obvs) aligned in their political leanings and social values. That means quite a lot to me. It provokes a sense of anger and injustice at it's worst, and a feeling of disconnection at best.

TLDR; No, I'm emphatically not, but I enjoy it in sports.

I agree. But, there is something about what we do with the flag and national identity - particularly the English. It's always about the past, and so rarely about the present. It's 1066, the Empire and the World Wars, it's the old darlings that are backbone of Britain. In Wales and Scotland, that's less prevalent - their identities are more forged in shared social values and experience, and more timeless - particularly so in Wales.

Same with this stuff. Wales was the Brexit MVP and is increasingly Conservative-voting; one half of Scotland hates the other half (and will vote to remain in the alien United Kingdom next chance it gets); and, other than London standing out as a relative hotbed of knife crime and homophobia, every social values survey you see shows barely any difference between the nations. What 'shared social values and experience' ties that lot together, let alone makes it a preferable one? You sound like someone trying to justify wearing a kilt to a wedding.

[Spikey M]

The Scots are fond of the odd stabbing themselves.

[Lewis]

Whilst it may be superficially similar to English stabbings, they have their own distinct culture of 'chibbing'.

[The Merse]

Same with this stuff. Wales was the Brexit MVP and is increasingly Conservative-voting; one half of Scotland hates the other half (and will vote to remain in the alien United Kingdom next chance it gets); and, other than London standing out as a relative hotbed of knife crime and homophobia, every social values survey you see shows barely any difference between the nations. What 'shared social values and experience' ties that lot together, let alone makes it a preferable one? You sound like someone trying to justify wearing a kilt to a wedding.

Yes, I don’t feel any closer to Wales and what I feel for Scotland is more remote than it’s ever been (it having been a hell of a while since I spent more than 3 consecutive months there. I’d certainly include the Welsh as being those I feel extremely remote from in my values - now of course that’s a value vs volume thing - there are a small number of very very significant issues Where I find far more agreement here in London from friends, colleagues, strangers, politicians et al, than I would in the shittowns across the UK I’ve previously lived in. It’s a little less noticeable with Scotland I guess as it is a region whereby I’m most closely aligned to the political and cultural mean, I guess. But I’ve no skin in the independence game dominating things there and again, it’s more London I identify with at present really.

I just don’t really feel the need to collectively identify with 60m odd folk. I’ve plenty of collectives I identify with that I’ve chosen somewhat.

I do get you’re on about @Lee - I do feel that, but probably more localised. There’s aspects of Bristol and it’s culture I miss dearly and refer to with great fondness and I certainly do for Islington/London. But I’ve never really felt that at a national level, nor that it would really constitute patriotism. I do think the institution has to come into it - that’s all a country is in my eyes.

[Kikó]

I've felt more of a connection to this part of London (Also Islington, hi neighbour) than England as a whole. I think the concept of idealism of a nation is more childish and emphasise more with Jim's proud of fish and chips and the cover drive.

[The Merse]

I can empathise with it, for sure. I just don’t think it constitutes patriotism for me, as it doesn’t go so far as make me proud to be British. Not that I can’t be n advocate for this island, I think there’s lots we do well. Perhaps it’s also a question of what patriotism means to the individual - my family are big flag waving patriot types of the kind typical of Scots and which is always more reserved in England, so perhaps that has led me to inflate the meaning somewhat.

[Spoonsky]

Echoing some of you here - patriotism for shared cultural experiences rather than symbols or history (there's plenty to be proud of and ashamed of in any country's history). I think I feel especially patriotic about things that people in other countries don't understand, like baseball or really long drives.

I also think growing up with a more 'international' outlook - due to traveling a fair amount and spending most of my time on here as an adolescent - has led me to realize that the USA is a fucked up place in many ways, and the 'American way of life' isn't something I identify with at all. On the contrary, I doubt I'll live here as an adult. But I'll always be American and I'll never hate being American, because that would mean hating myself.