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View Poll Results: When will proper football next happen?

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  • Really soon. It's all going to be fine!

    1 7.14%
  • Before August

    4 28.57%
  • Before December

    5 35.71%
  • 2021

    1 7.14%
  • Turtle

    3 21.43%
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Thread: April..... well, not football [FOOTBALL]

  1. #101
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Must be one of those. Reads proper London and 'my first team' suggests standing. Probably Noble.

  2. #102
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    I've blocked Nicholson as I find him incredibly tedious but you could probably just farm his social media followers.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Waffdon's Avatar
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    No way Mark Noble isn’t a Tory.

  4. #104
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Mark Noble born Canning Town 1987 and grew up in Beckton... 100% Labour guaranteed.

    The whole Lampard/Redknapp clan will be Tories. Joe Cole, more likely Labour.

  5. #105
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Steven Gerrard is your classic shy Tory. Definitely.

  6. #106
    Fuck like you cook.
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    Liverpool furloughing staff is tough to stomach. We're supposed to be different, what do we sing you'll never walk alone for if we abandon those who make the walk?

  7. #107
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    You might have been different in Shankly's day, but today you're owned by Americans who are in it for the moolah.

    Surprised they don't recognise what a PR disaster it is though (not surprised Tottenham didn't see that, I doubt Daniel Levy has ever put his own socks on).

  8. #108
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    In fact, I bet the entire 'Golden Generation' vote Conservative.

  9. #109
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    In fact, I bet the entire 'Golden Generation' vote Conservative.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52168692

    Bahahaha at these wankers torching all credibility they have.

  11. #111
    The Artist Formerly Known as Taz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52168692

    lol at these fucking wankers. Burn the whole thing down and start again.
    I don't know if you're as mentally struggling as I am or you're just playing sick mind games on us. Trust no one.

  12. #112
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    I haven't met any family members or friends since Wed 11 March so it's probably both.

  13. #113
    Administrator Kikó's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smjffy View Post
    Liverpool furloughing staff is tough to stomach. We're supposed to be different, what do we sing you'll never walk alone for if we abandon those who make the walk?
    😂

  14. #114
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    That interview is just as likely to be Johnny Nic talking to himself in the mirror as it is being Noble. Nicholson has a history of talking absolute shite. Last year he suggested that not signing players from Scotland was "anti-Scotish bigotry". The guy is a mong.

  15. #115
    Administrator Kikó's Avatar
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    Our Wayne speaks:
    :
    The first thing to say is that if Derby County needed me to take a pay cut to save the club I would understand and look to support them in whatever way I could. And if the government approached me to help support nurses financially or buy ventilators I’d be proud to do so — as long as I knew where the money was going.

    But I’m not every player. I’m 34, I’ve had a long career and I’ve earned well. I’m in a place where I could give something up. Not every footballer is in the same position. Yet suddenly the whole profession has been put on the spot with a demand for 30 per cent pay cuts across the board. Why are footballers suddenly the scapegoats?

    How the past few days have played out is a disgrace. First the health secretary, Matt Hancock, in his daily update on coronavirus, said that Premier League players should take a pay cut. He was supposed to be giving the nation the latest on the biggest crisis we’ve faced in our lifetimes. Why was the pay of footballers even in his head? Was he desperate to divert attention from his government’s handling of this pandemic?

    The Premier League then announced it was looking for its players to give up or defer wages by 30 per cent. This despite owners and the Premier League board knowing players were already deep in discussion about what their contribution should be. It seemed strange to me because every other decision in this process has been kept behind closed doors, but this had to be announced publicly. Why? It feels as if it’s to shame the players — to force them into a corner where they have to pick up the bill for lost revenue.

    The EFL will probably wait to see what is agreed at Premier League level and so, as Derby captain, I might face similar discussions to those Premier League captains, who were asked to agree reductions on behalf of their whole squad. But as a captain, how would I know the financial background of my team-mates?

    The Championship is different from the Premier League. We have one player who lives with his mum on a council estate — not that that matters — who I imagine has responsibility for paying the bills for his whole family. He’s a footballer but he’s facing the same circumstances as lots of people in our country today.

    He’s a youngster and hasn’t had time to build up any security to fall back on. A cut might be fine for me but what about him? Thirty per cent of £2,000-a-week would lose him £600 — and that could be what his family needs to live on. Remember, players’ careers are short so they have to make investments or have savings, with most facing retirement at 35 but — unlike a previous generation — unable to draw a pension until much later.

    Of course, Premier League pay in most cases is higher but there will be younger players who just aren’t on the kind of money where they can be forced to lose 30 per cent. And, like everyone else in the world, footballers spend according to their means. Some players will buy houses they can’t really afford, some buy cars they don’t need. Whether that’s right or wrong, it’s the reality. When I was a kid at Everton I bought a £20,000 Audi before I had the money because that’s the kind of daft thing you do at that age. What would have happened to me? Then you have all the players with family members being laid off and who will be under even more pressure to support them.

    I get that players are well paid and could give up money. But this should be getting done on a case-by-case basis. Clubs should be sitting down with each player and explaining what savings it needs to survive. Players would accept that. One player might say, “I can afford a 30 per cent cut”; another might say, “I can only afford 5 per cent.” Personally, I’d have no problem with some of us paying more. I don’t think that would cause any dressing room problems.

    At Derby we’re keeping in touch about what we can contribute to our local community and especially those affected by, or at the front line of, coronavirus. Some players are saying they can afford to do something, some are saying they can’t afford to do anything. We all respect that.

    For the Premier League to just announce the proposal, as it has done, increases the pressure on players and in my opinion it is now a no-win situation: if players come out and say they can’t agree or are not willing to cut by 30 per cent, even if the real reasons are that it will financially ruin some, it will be presented as “Rich Players Refuse Pay Cut”.

    Whatever way you look at it, we’re easy targets. What gets lost is that half our wages get taken by the taxman. Money that goes to the government, money that is helping the NHS.

    And what about the big stars from other sports, who are able to avoid tax by living in places like Monaco — why are they not getting called out? Why aren’t all the wealthy being forced to contribute extra? Wouldn’t that raise more money?

    It shouldn’t be forgotten footballers already give a lot of money to charity. We help our communities. I don’t like talking about what I’ve done but throughout my career I’ve always contributed to charities that mean something to me. This disaster is hitting the whole world. We’re all human beings. Becoming targets like this I feel is wrong. I’m worried for some of the players, especially the young ones.

    The big clubs don’t need players to take pay cuts. Are you telling me Manchester United or Man City need 30 per cent of their players’ wages to survive? If that’s the case then football is in a far worse position than any of us imagined.

    If it’s not about club survival, but about diverting money to important causes I know from my own experience in lots of dressing rooms that the players are always the first to say we need to do something about this. We have to remember footballers here come from all over the world and some players will have different ideas what they would do with any money they have given up. You have African players who, I have no doubt, would rightly want to support their homelands and I’m sure that’s true of a lot of foreign players. Shouldn’t that be respected?

    As I understand it, the Premier League is putting £20 million towards the NHS and that should be applauded but in reality that’s a drop in the ocean compared to the £500 million the PFA say the clubs would save by wage reductions.

    I know that in writing this people will point the finger at me and say, “Oh you’ve earned all this money in your career.” I know there’ll be implications for me. But I’m not talking about me personally. I’m talking about footballers, people I have shared dressing rooms with. The pressure put on them is not acceptable and I need to speak up for them. At the moment it’s almost a free-for-all: it’s like the government, Premier League and sections of the media have set the players up to fall.

  16. #116
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    Protect the first £x of earnings. This stuff isn't complex.

  17. #117
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    The footballers have a cheek SEETHING at Matt Hancock. He was asked a question by a reporter, he's just out of isolation and probably doing 20 hour days trying to arm the NHS for this, he just said whatever came into his head. Give the man a break. It's exactly the sort of shit they normally cry about regarding media interaction.

    Footballers do not matter but they seem to think they do.

  18. #118
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    After calling Spurs cunts the other day seems only fit that our owners should be called out as cunts as well. Surprises me because they have been pretty good with PR recently so to see them get burnt will probably make them realise in the future. I would think they thought topping up the wages(which Spurs aren’t doing) might just get them some positive PR.

    There are a lot of sides to it with the footballer wages. But surely you just say a cut off at all levels. If you earn over 5k a week you take a 30% cut and that money can then be used to support clubs at the bottom end of the pyramid. Rather than this shit posturing from the PFA.

  19. #119
    Senior Member Waffdon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    The footballers have a cheek SEETHING at Matt Hancock. He was asked a question by a reporter, he's just out of isolation and probably doing 20 hour days trying to arm the NHS for this, he just said whatever came into his head. Give the man a break. It's exactly the sort of shit they normally cry about regarding media interaction.

    Footballers do not matter but they seem to think they do.
    He’s fucking useless and couldn’t even follow his countries guidelines of self isolating for the minimum 7 days. Your hatred of footballers is something special.

  20. #120
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    I don't hate footballers, it's just laughable the lengths to which people with no other interests in their life will go to defend them against the charge of being out of touch and in a moneyed bubble (which with a few exceptions, they are).

    It's not the players' fault though as such, it's the fact that the top level of the English game is morally rotten to the core and they're just part of it. Still, spare me Wayne Rooney doing woe is me victim articles.
    Last edited by Jimmy Floyd; 05-04-2020 at 12:15 PM.

  21. #121
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    I don't hate footballers, it's just laughable the lengths to which people with no other interests in their life will go to defend them against the charge of being out of touch and in a moneyed bubble (which with a few exceptions, they are).

    It's not the players' fault though as such, it's the fact that the top level of the English game is morally rotten to the core and they're just part of it. Still, spare me Wayne Rooney doing woe is me victim articles.
    It’s not just footballers though is it? They’re just an east target.

    Any professional sportsperson or business executive / celebrity could equally be called out.

    Surely easier to just point to owners and or the British rich list.

    Hancock is entitled to his opinion, by raising a government press conference whicb puts expectation on that specific group is downright not acceptable.

  23. #123
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Zero hour employees are a tough one with this. They are basically reliant on the employer being arsed to furlough them. If the employer isn't arsed then they are fucked.

    Zero hour contracts won't survive this, as a concept.

  24. #124
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foe View Post
    It’s not just footballers though is it? They’re just an east target.

    Any professional sportsperson or business executive / celebrity could equally be called out.

    Surely easier to just point to owners and or the British rich list.

    Hancock is entitled to his opinion, by raising a government press conference whicb puts expectation on that specific group is downright not acceptable.
    I think the reason for their being in the spotlight is that the sport of football is having a very public spat about money and what happens to the season, etc, seemingly oblivious to everyone's concerns in the real world. Every other major sport that I'm aware of is just getting on with it and seeing what happens.

    It is owners too, it's the whole rotten show. Daniel Levy, with a personal £1 billion fortune, furloughing his employees on £20k for 80% of their wages, would get drummed out of the sport if there was any justice.

  25. #125
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    It's a tough one contractually. Morally it's night and day. I'm hoping this spreads beyond football and people become angry enough about the levels of exploitation to actually do something about it.

  26. #126
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellberg View Post
    It's a tough one contractually. Morally it's night and day. I'm hoping this spreads beyond football and people become angry enough about the levels of exploitation to actually do something about it.
    Yep, in a year's time you'll be seeing all sorts of articles with fund managers / merchant bankers screaming with fury about how much tax they pay and how they're worth every penny, in the same way footballers are now.

    The human haircut has a great opportunity to recast Labour as a force for moral good, as despite being a perennial Tory voter I'm really not sure they have it in them to get their heads around the light this has shone on certain aspects of society.

  27. #127
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    'Football' has behaved appallingly in this. Be it the desperate grasping to keep the shit show on the road for the monies (which Rooney himself criticised), furloughing workers and not paying any of the balance (when the money is clearly there to do so), the players not actually offering anything or even talking about it until they were forced, the owners just doing nothing, or the players who decided the lockdown didn't apply to them. It's all been awful.

    What has surprised me is the innocent view people still hold about how this works. It's a sport that's transitioned over the last 25 years to be for money, to make more money, with the ultimate aim of making all of the money.

  28. #128
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    And Wayne Rooney citing the kid living with his family shows how laughably out of touch he is. Many families are having to survive on a hell of a lot less than £1,400 a week, a lot with no idea when there'll be able to pay their mortgage again too.

  29. #129
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    I mean in the same way yev why don’t you donate 30% of your pay? I’m sure there’s families living on a lot less.

    It’s a private business which means supply and demand dictates its value. It’s value is enormous because of the huge demand. Football wages will remain enormous until the money stops flowing in from the general public.

    Everyone’s cost base is different and yes everyone can in theory live on 20k a year, but that’s not feasible with zero notice is it?

    How do you know the footballers were planning doing nothing?

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yevrah View Post
    'Football' has behaved appallingly in this. Be it the desperate grasping to keep the shit show on the road for the monies (which Rooney himself criticised), furloughing workers and not paying any of the balance (when the money is clearly there to do so), the players not actually offering anything or even talking about it until they were forced, the owners just doing nothing, or the players who decided the lockdown didn't apply to them. It's all been awful.

    What has surprised me is the innocent view people still hold about how this works. It's a sport that's transitioned over the last 25 years to be for money, to make more money, with the ultimate aim of making all of the money.
    And you’re generalising all of football because of jack grielish or who else?

  31. #131
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foe View Post
    And you’re generalising all of football because of jack grielish or who else?
    Kyle Walker with the brassers too. Though it’s a tiny percentage and madness to be bringing it up when most of the general public think the lockdown doesn’t apply to them either.

  32. #132
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Isn't it all dependent on whether the season finishes? If they end up having to pack the end of the season into June and July then why should they have their wages cut? They will have played all of the games. But if the season is voided, and the broadcasters want thirty per cent of their fees back, then it stands to reason that the clubs should take that money from the people they pay to do a job that is no longer being done (and which happens to be their biggest expense). People seem to be conflating that with a general notion that well-paid people ought to be giving up money for some reason, which is stupid.

  33. #133
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    Even then I’m not sure how that works. An injured player would still earn full pay id imagine and play zero games.

    Unless the players contracts state how many games the season has, it’s almost irrelevant to them.

    The club can play them in 0 games, or 50 games.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foe View Post
    I mean in the same way yev why don’t you donate 30% of your pay? I’m sure there’s families living on a lot less.
    I'm probably going to. Everyone in my company is still being paid full pay, I believe they will also be in April, but after that it's less likely, when I'll have to contribute so the lower paid people here can get by. I'm ok with that.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foe View Post
    And you’re generalising all of football because of jack grielish or who else?
    Because of all of the things I've said.

    There are canteen staff being furlouged on 80% of their pay while Daniel Levy dives in and out of his money pit and Harry Kane hasn't had to cut down on the number of cars he buys each month. Do you not see a problem with that?

    EDIT: And that also applies to Lewis' point about rich people giving up money for the sake of it. It's not for the sake of it, in this case, it's for Doreen.
    Last edited by Yevrah; 05-04-2020 at 01:42 PM.

  36. #136
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    As a minimum they (or the clubs) should be covering lost wages for other members of staff, ZHC or not. Just out of basic decency. That's not directed exclusively at football either. I wouldn't let the Abu Dhabi fuckers charging for use of the ExCel centre do business in this country again.

  37. #137
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Well, they could presumably refuse to go along with it. But if clubs start suffering from having to bear the costs it could potentially de-rail the entire gravy train, so they would be well advised to take the short-term hit.

    The best part of that interview is him speaking directly to Waff.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellberg View Post
    As a minimum they (or the clubs) should be covering lost wages for other members of staff, ZHC or not. Just out of basic decency. That's not directed exclusively at football either. I wouldn't let the Abu Dhabi fuckers charging for use of the ExCel centre do business in this country again.
    Indeed. It's not quite the "given up the Excel centre to the NHS" is it?

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yevrah View Post
    Because of all of the things I've said.

    There are canteen staff being furlouged on 80% of their pay while Daniel Levy dives in and out of his money pit and Harry Kane hasn't had to cut down on the number of cars he buys each month. Do you not see a problem with that?
    I do. But I don’t see it as a problem by the players. It’s a decision made by the owners which is morally wrong.

    If the business is sustainable and profitable (ie operating/operated at a profit) the clubs shouldn’t need to furlough the non playing staff. If there’s financial concerns then they should be seeking solution - the government gave them an easy out for low paid staff. The players could intervene but absolutely not their responsibility how the club is run and funded. Your issue should be with how the owners/board are handling the financial obligations of the club, not the players who are indeed themselves employees.

  40. #140
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    I'm of opinion that players shouldn't have to take a wage cut because why? The majority pay more tax over the course of their career than many of us would in our entire lives and essentially those taxes should then be used by whichever government is in power to invest and support those who reside in the country. None of the countries problems are the footballers. It was only a couple of years ago I remember reading about the richest 1% own half of the world's wealth so you start there but the real messed up thing about all of this I imagine is the rich will come out of it better than the poor whilst everything returns to normal and people forget that this was all even a thing.

    In an ideal world those who have been shown not to help those in need should be blacklisted when it is all sorted.

  41. #141
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Couldn't the clubs just furlough the players and then pay the government the piddling money back (with interest if need be)? Presumably doing so wouldn't void their contracts, otherwise half of the workforce is technically unemployed.

  42. #142
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    If you think top footballers being on 8/10 times the money they were 20 years ago is down to 'demand from the general public' you're deluding yourself. It's awash with laundered blood money in the same way that e.g. the London housing market is, which in turn makes life impossible further down the pecking order as everything is distorted.

    This is a very good article about what's going to happen to it: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/s...cer-wages.html

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    It’s still supply and demand.

    The clubs are adjusting their cost base based on the revenues they are obtaining and forecast. Look what happened in Scotland when setanta went bust. It fucked up a fair few clubs.

    The revenue has increased significantly so the cost base has also. And the way that’s most noticeable, player salaries. Same as any business, lack of cash flow can kill even the most promising of companies if they’ve extended themselves for expansion and not created a sufficient safety fund.

    Football has those funds for the most part in wealthy owners. Whether they’d be willing to bail them out is debatable. They’re for the most part business people now. Elite national football isn’t a community run sport. It’s P&L.

  44. #144
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    I'd suggest you're making an argument for player cuts there, not against. That's simply from a business perspective and putting the politics to one side.

    On the politics, I'm not suggesting Bolton should be dishing out millions to the community, but clubs like Liverpool and Tottenham furloughing staff who earn a relative pittance and giving the millionaire footballers a free ride is morally repugnant. Even a Tory government are implementing socialist policies at a time of crisis. Meanwhile, football is behaving as it always as, "supply and demand and P&L", and it's being exposed as a very ugly business which may suffer once this is all over.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellberg View Post
    I'd suggest you're making an argument for player cuts there, not against. That's simply from a business perspective and putting the politics to one side.

    On the politics, I'm not suggesting Bolton should be dishing out millions to the community, but clubs like Liverpool and Tottenham furloughing staff who earn a relative pittance and giving the millionaire footballers a free ride is morally repugnant. Even a Tory government are implementing socialist policies at a time of crisis. Meanwhile, football is behaving as it always as, "supply and demand and P&L", and it's being exposed as a very ugly business which may suffer once this is all over.
    If the finances don’t stack up then player cuts are the way to go, absolutely. However not as easy as that as we all discovered with clubs like Sunderland, Bolton and Leeds all folding in on themselves when the gravy train ends. It’s not a particularly new phenomena. The government have told business they can furlough staff up to £x. If that didn’t apply to football clubs then we wouldn’t be even having this conversation.

    Football is ugly. It’s a business. It’ll be interesting in the NFL is all this goes south and stays that way. A lot of player contracts have little to no guarantee, so if they need to cull costs, they can.

  46. #146
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    It's not a business. A business would compete to sell its product against competitors on the price/quality trade-off. Football clubs compete to earn league points and if they fail at that arbitrary task, the money dries up. It's not in any sense like a normal business.

  47. #147
    I used to be funny.
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    Erm .... get your bids in for Matty Longstaff. If we were going to hold on to him, we'd have put pen to paper.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellberg View Post

    On the politics, I'm not suggesting Bolton should be dishing out millions to the community, but clubs like Liverpool and Tottenham furloughing staff who earn a relative pittance and giving the millionaire footballers a free ride is morally repugnant.
    I simply don't get this. Liverpool furloughing non-playing staff, whilst paying the 20% shortfall means that the only "victim" is the taxpayer. Which ok, it's not great - but we all know business is business. However, if they were to furlough the players - it would be DETRIMENTAL to the taxpayers. The amount of tax Firmino pays per month is 100 times more than the minimum furloughed salary - how is that morally repugnant? Genuine question, I'm not being arsey.

    If the club wasn't topping up salaries of non playing staff, or even not safeguarding jobs, I would agree.

    The only issue is why furlough the staff in the first place - but then you could ask this question of every profit making company in the country.
    Edit: if your issue is with the club's asking the govt for help, then yeah, I get that.
    Last edited by John Arne; 05-04-2020 at 04:43 PM.

  49. #149
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone's suggesting they should be furloughing players. In fact, I'm not especially bothered whether or not players take a pay cut. What is certain is that top football clubs should be covering their own staff's wages and not crying to the government to abuse a scheme meant for businesses who would not otherwise be able to keep staff on.

  50. #150
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    You know the footballers aren't the ones making those decisions right? It's the owners who are infinitely more wealthy than the players who are.

    He won't speak on Branson but will talk about footballers. It's because they're upwardly mobile and need to be slapped down and know their place.

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