Nothing, but when the alternative is Labour and their current state, what are you going to do?Originally Posted by Yeldoow
Theresa May's Conservatives
Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
Tim Farron's Liberal Democrats
Paul Nuttall's UKIP
2 people's Greens
Nicholas Durgeon's Scottish Nationalists
Satan's Sinn Fein
Dr Ian Paisley's DUP
Some other bunch of nonces
I'm foreign, but I wish I were an Englishman
Nothing, but when the alternative is Labour and their current state, what are you going to do?
I'd go with Labour over the Conservatives at the moment.
Labour don't inspire a huge amount of confidence that they won't be a train wreck, but the Conservatives have proved they are.
He does have form, since he equates criticism of Israeli government with anti-Semitism. That's what most of this is about, and it shouldn't be other than a trivial point for me to make.
There was an enquiry in 2016 (Chakrabarti Inquiry) which found “no evidence” of systemic anti-Semitism in Labour. A cross party parliamentary Select Committee in 2016 concluded that “there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of anti-Semitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party.” Incidents of anti-Semitism within Labour account for 0.08 percent of its membership of around 500,000 people, one-third the rate in the general population.
Meanwhile, despite the hysteria, nobody here is naming names as to who the prominent anti-Semites are in Labour.
Yeah, fuck you.
The last 3 years have been a cross-party omnishambles.
What has actually got worse since 2010 and how will Corbyn improve those things?
The Conservatives are the government, you can't blame the opposition for opposing them.
The Brexit shambles is entirely of the Conservatives own making.
Just of the top of my head in my local area:
GPs surgeries closing despite increasing local population leading to increasing inability to get GP appointments.
Increasing A&E waiting times. I've had to go to A&E a few times in the last year and not waited less than 4 hours once.
My daughters school has twice this year sent out letters basically begging parents to buy books for the school.
My wife is a teacher and hasn't had much positive to say about education policy in general for nearly a decade but I couldn't really give you any detail on that (I don't listen that much).
Reduced opening times at the dump and new rules requiring you to prove you live in the county to be able to go there (I know this is a local council issue, but they will of course blame budget cuts).
As for how Corbyn will improve these issues, I don't know. Election manifestoes aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but I'm sure they're making all sorts of promises to chuck more money at it. Ultimately I think that as long as we have an effective two party system then if you're unhappy with the current government, the only alternative is that the other party get in and you hope they do a better job at least for a while (that and hope for electoral reform).
The Conservatives always win around here regardless so I'll probably just vote for whichever party (Lib Dem/Labour) looks like running them closest.
Social (investment in local services etc) and economic disparity across the uk, which for me has given rise to the toxic culture we see everywhere. Social mobility having decreased (some optimism put it at a stagnated level, but that follows growth under the previous government) for starters, albeit I'd probably represent a great outlier in that regard, it's plainly obvious from myriad metrics.
Also see
Fall in real terms earning
Increase in real terms poverty - particularly increase in children born into poverty
Number of food banks (instances) across the uk
Number of attendees of food banks
Number of rough sleepers
Increases in NHS waiting times
That's off the top of my head and purely around my terms of reference for performance of a governments primary duties.
Jesus what's changed since 2010? Are you living in a bubble?
I mean, I hate to defend Henry here - but nobody is actually providing any evidence of the systematic anti-semiticism. Someone even said that prominent members of the party are at it - yet still didn't provide anything.
Just provide it, and then we can either lol at Henry or we beg for forgiveness and vote Labour.
I genuinely don't know where I stand on this... So I look forward to the links and stories.
Last edited by John Arne; 29-11-2019 at 12:29 PM.
Merse, you raise some valid points, but I'm simply not having the poverty one. The measure is a complete nonsense.
How will Labour (or even any hypothetical new government) reverse these trends?
I think education funding is the most obvious and easily changeable thing, as that is basically about amounts of money. I think the NHS is a lot more complex than that.
Btw I wasn't claiming above that nothing has got worse, I just think discourse has slipped into everyone screaming about life being terrible without explaining why and how it can be improved.
Those points might make the basis of an argument if you were talking about a bit more taxing 'n' spending to round off some edges instead of letting actual mongs borrow hundreds of billions a year for the rest of time.
Allow me to be slightly tangential in the context around this, as I don’t really care all that much at this stage.
I’ll vote for those whose high level, conceptual deliverables are aligned with my mode of thought right now. For me, it’s a relatively easy choice of Labour for the very simple reason that they’re promising higher public expenditure, and higher taxes with remediation of many of the societal issues I mention above at the top of the agenda. Also, I live smack bang in the middle of Jezza’s constituency so If I get run over by a bus tomorrow I know my vote wouldn’t really have done a damned thing anyway.
I’ve previously obsessed on the exact ‘hows’. However, since managing bigger portfolios of big projects over the next 3/4 years, I’ve come to realise that just as when I sit at the start of that programme with finger in the air figures on how much it’ll cost and value it’ll deliver etc, the solutions will change and be challenged and take on a more tangible form only after lots more work.
That’s what you’re electing, and similar to me asking for investment on my educated hunches in my place, really we’re backing a portfolio of proposals that you wouldn’t possibly want a govmnt to be inflexible with over their tenure - otherwise why not just vote on policies and let civil servants dutifully put them in practice?
Of the specific policies on offer from them, I don’t see a panacea, no one should, but I see good things working towards those remediations. I see things that look more like some of the progressive nations I admire, and I see little which concerns me overly (like anytime lowering of taxes and specifically inheritance tax would).
One thing I am concerned about is that I don’t feel they’re being ambitious enough - I don’t hit the 5%/80k p/a earnings they’re targeting the 45% rate at, but I’d welcome it coming down to my level - I pay a far bit of 40% and would welcome that whole band being moved to 45%. I think I’m not alone in the younger City workers from non-Surrey/Posh Kent/Posh Essex/SW London backgrounds too... There’s broad agreement that we’d pay more to live in a better, more cohesive environment.
In general terms, I’ve become a lot more anarchic (in the loose/emotional sense of simply wanting to rip up the whole make up of British politics) over the past few years, and in particular, I really have come to be very cynical about FPTP and our insistence on electing a singularly mandated, majority government. In my youth I’d trot out the same old response of ‘look at those lot in XXX over the channel with their silly coalitions never getting anywhere, we don’t want to be like them!’. Time, Germany, the SNP majority in Hollywood, the Tories somehow being bigger cunts without the Lib Dem’s temperance after all... I’d welcome some form of PR/AV and more coalition govmt for sure.
Last edited by The Merse; 29-11-2019 at 01:39 PM. Reason: My usual, awful dyslexic punctuation.
Why not just pay more tax off your own back?
I’ve had this conversation before, and ten years ago I’d poo-poo it due to being someone that apparently was in relative poverty from birth to age ten or eleven and giving it the ‘it weren’t that bad in’t those days’...
I think the problem I had, which you might, with the term is that it conjures images of Dickensian poverty or of third world poverty and of course, the standards of living are disparate. But the term is valid, it is relative, it’s academic, and it’s not going away. As such, I’ll keep using the term, but I do see where your objection comes from.
Technically have been, as it happens, anonymously no less. But that’s another uninteresting story...
That's the problem I have with it. Poverty can't be measured relatively.
I think that's a good and fair post, and in particular I completely agree with you on the point about 'how' being a loaded question because the goalposts inevitably change. A good government is about strategy and not tactics. Thatcher's government and Blair's government both had a mission and both accomplished it, even if both may have had detrimental effects depending on one's opinion. For the first time since perhaps 1987, at this election with Johnson and Corbyn I think we are seeing both the main parties actually standing for a way of approaching the national future and in both cases that should count for more than 'policies' or manifesto pledges.
At the same time, it also has to be recognised that under globalisation things like real terms wage decreases are just not within the gift or control of national governments.
I personally think we are further away than ever from PR. As Labour and the Lib Dems have demonstrated in this campaign, no one is willing to work with anyone else.
IIn literal terms it very much can be, I’d argue. But I get it’s a more emotive word than that for most.
Agree totally on all points. The latter leading me more into my anarchic rants in the pub. It’s an odd dichotomy - I’d argue the more polarised a nations interest groups, the more the need for bipartisan consensus, and that’s not exactly a ground breaking concept. Yet, we’re seeing an increased appetite for the precise antithesis of that idea.
Fucked, I tell thee.
How do you measure it absolutely? Is there a physical law that establishes the range of poverty? If not, then it cannot be anything else but relative. You are free to choose whatever definition you like, of course, but then so does everyone else.
I sympathize with this view, but the problem with the "I'd gladly pay more taxes" view is that it always assumes an honest government that would pursue the policies you want. Instead, you are stuck with a crappy government that you hate. So the actual question should be: Are you willing to give more money to the current government? Because that is what you are stuck with.
You could give the money to charity, or to the nearest poor person (where it would actually do the most direct good). It's normally a thing wankers say to look good, knowing they will never have to back it up, but if Merse has been then fair play.
Or to this bunch:
https://www.effectivealtruism.org/
I understand that, but I’d say firstly, yes - I would actually support paying more tax with whichever party is in power. Albeit, I’d rather it wasn’t for an increased spend in outdated notions around national defence for instance, but broadly speaking none of the parties (maybe the mentalists left in UKIP who’ve genuinely gone past the point of reason) would likely spend the vast majority of the money all that dissimilarly - that is, that primarily that we’re mainly funding key services and welfare.
What is the measure? Take a look at the schools. Take a look at education. It is as bad as it's ever been. This is the next generation, absolutely fucked.
At it's most destitute level in Dundee, the kids that are lucky enough (yes lucky) to be taken in to care are far safer than those at risk (massive). There are not enough services, and that's the effect of the cuts. The parents are fucked, the kids are even more fucked. It'll get worse before it gets better. Austerity seemed sensible at the time, but only now are we starting to see the real, horrific effects on a massive social scale. This will take just as long, if not longer, to turn around.
Still waiting. At most what we'll get is a few isolated incidents about words being chosen poorly. Nothing to justify the hysterics about "what will become of the UK Jewish population?", as if the pogroms are ready to start up.
Also LOL at Lewis trying to pretend that taxation and charity are the same thing.
Ensuring that everyone has shelter and enough food is very easily solved, just by giving them those things or the means to get them. Wages and waiting lists are harder to tackle, but the starting point has to be to want to tackle them, which the Tories fundamentally don't.
The difference is coercion, but you and everyone else who wants to pay more taxation could quite easily set up a system where you redistribute your wealth without having to submit yourselves to that. You could call it iCommune. Something commune-based anyway.
People who say 'If you think people should pay more taxes, why don't you volunteer more' is a fucking braindead moron. It's up there with 'You should have to pass a test to be able to vote/have children' as ways to spot someone who thinks they're much smarter than they are.
It's right though isn't it. That Toby Ord geezer does it, although I've no idea whether he's literally a communist.
Yeah we could all gather up in a commune, and everyone that lived inside the commune... lets call them borders, could say how much they and others within the commune contribute by... signalling their opinion with some sort of vote. They're likely working so obviously they couldn't take all that time to get involved in the nitty gritty and the various... citizens of the commune could nominate a delegate to represent their views at the meeting. Then whoever got the most votes could decide how much they pay. They could then use these contributions to make the commune a better place by piling their money together to spend on services for the commune.
Does this concept remind you of anything?
Effective altruism is the stupidest “fad” of the last few years.
What a load of nonsense that is.
"Effective altruism encourages individuals to consider all causes and actions and to act in the way that brings about the greatest positive impact, based upon their values."
So murdering 50% of the population then?
If you only do things that the commune says you have to do, do you also not do things that the commune says you can't do?
To continue being a part of the commune, I guess so. They could write up a list of rules that you could be punished for if a group of your peers agreed you had broken one. Maybe set-up a sort of series of locked rooms for those that had strongly gone against the rules.
Does any of this, literally any of it, remind you of anything?
No. If you're only refraining from doing things the commune disapproves of in order to retain your liberty then you are being coerced into doing so. You should want to live within the laws of the commune (as to commune a better place), and wouldn't, for example, dabble in illegal drug use, because that would suggest that you don't consider yourself to be bound by communal norms and have taken unilateral action.
Lewis is going to start a cult.
Club Lewis: Taxation Optional
He thinks that taxation is theft, he's already in one.Lewis is going to start a cult.
I think that, mostly, they just want you to throw a few bucks on the way of poor people. As far as stupid fads go, I thought it might not be the absolute worst, but I am glad that mokkers has set me straight.
As if I would donate my money to anyone.
Sounds alright to me. It's a little soulless but then so is most politics.
I went to a talk some effective altruist Oxford philosophy professor gave and she spent much of the lecture trying to multiply zero with infinity and calculate expected utilities for improbable events. All this wannabe science to just say “do what’s best for the world” at the end. Great. I guess we’re all gonna go buy mosquito nets for african kids now.
I reckon it must be piss easy to start a cult. People will throw money at any old shite. We should start one.
Just go into any twitch channel. The internet's full of massive, massive doormats.
Northern NSW is the place to go for peak cult action.
On the "what's got worse" question, the NHS is obviously struggling but schools are absolutely fucked beyond belief.
The school my fiance works appears to have someone in charge of finance who is a master of some sort of financial witchcraft and they were breaking even until the latest round of cuts. Following their implementation they project going tens of thousands into debt. Most schools were already in a massive financial hole even before that so God knows what they'll do; mass layoffs of support staff like teaching assistants seems to be one of the answers.
The stories about schools begging parents or having teachers buy basic supplies are not a few isolated incidents in deprived areas, it's becoming the norm. It should be a source of national shame but because there's a prevalent Jimmy and Lewis "moaning teachers lolololol" attitude, it seems to fly under the radar (I guess teachers etc. are put off shouting about it for the same reason).
I don't know why anyone would go into teaching these days, it looks like an appalling job. Which it really shouldn't be and is probably a source of national shame that it is.
There's also a fucking insane amount of money wasted in the NHS because of a lack of social care funding.
You cut social funding which prompts people to be admitted to hospital. At which point the NHS is rightly obligated to care for these people and you spend orders of magnitude more money doing so than you would have if you paid for the social care in the first place. It is mind-blowingly stupid.
As a real world example; young patient with end stage renal disease on dialysis. Ex-IVDU who somehow managed to get themself clean. Horrific history of abuse with little social network and so usually homeless.
I saw them admitted probably 10 times over the past year because they had no address so couldn't attend their dialysis, got unwell and ended up attending via A and E. During one admission they spent a month in ITU.
If we were able to house them somewhere safe and stable, most of those admissions could have been avoided. The cost of the ITU admission alone would probably pay to privately rent a flat for the rest of their life.
They are dead now.
I've spent the last 8 months working in care of the elderly and the same thing there; ENORMOUS amounts of wasted money because perfectly well elderly people come into hospital as their care needs aren't being met any more in the community.
In and of itself that's not unreasonable, but it's the fact it can then take weeks and even months to find them suitable social care, all the time the NHS pays for an acute in-patient bed which is just crazy (and my experience is on specialist frailty units with people who are extremely experienced at dealing with the systems; it's even worse on other wards). Then we wonder why A and Es are overwhelmed; they can't get patients upstairs because beds are stuck full of people who've been waiting for placement for 3 weeks who were never actually ill in the first place.
It's not like it's problem solved once they find somewhere either, since a lot of the care homes are acopic shithouses who send people back in to start the cycle again for no fucking reason.
Last edited by randomlegend; 30-11-2019 at 10:50 AM.
I'm not just saying it because she's my fiance, but she is genuinely fantastic at her job by all measures. She's also working in one of the best schools with regards to working conditions for teachers around. And she's hardcore; she works way harder than I do as a junior doctor.
I'd be stunned if she hasn't left the profession in the next five years. To maintain any sort of standards in your teaching, you have no choice but to live a completely unsustainable lifestyle. It's really sad.
They are treated like expendable resources in a lot of ways. Train them up, flog them into the ground for a few years, let them quit and replace them with new ones who are cheaper.
Last edited by randomlegend; 30-11-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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