It's not really an outlier when you consider he's won the Uefa Cup twice (including one this decade), and been to another Champions League final. Sure, the majority of his success was a while ago, but it's stupid to suggest it's an outlier. How many current managers have 3 European trophies on their CVs?Originally Posted by ItalAussie
And you know this how? Unless I've missed something (I've not really kept up since Byrne resigned), it was our former chief executive that had access to some of the information of the case, not Allardyce/the whole club.
It was a fairly steady upward curve from his Valencia days until the fachts breakdown. It's lost in the subsequent lolfest, but his Liverpool side were seriously good (in relative terms). Not many teams beat Real Madrid 5-0 (on aggregate) in the European Cup, and that result was hardly an outlier. Since it all went wrong he's just jobbed around, by and large taking the money (by the looks of things). Maybe that's what you do once you have established a reputation, just cash in on it. Thinking about it, Ashley is probably one of the saner owners he will have worked for. Was Moratti still in charge when he was at Inter?
Moratti, Abramovich, Di Laurentis, Perez . . .
CJay has addressed the point here, I think. As I mentioned previously, Rafa goes deep in competitions season after season. In Europe alone, it's something obscene like:
2003 - European Cup Quarter Final
2004 - Won the UEFA Cup
2005 - Won the European Cup
2006 - Last 16
2007 - European Cup final
2008 - European Cup semi-final
2009 - European Cup quarter final
2010 - UEFA Cup semi-final
2011 - n/a
2012 - n/a
2013 - Won the UEFA Cup
2014 - UEFA Cup Last 16
2015 - UEFA Cup semi-final
That's eleven seasons, and he has three trophies, one other final, three semi-finals, two quarter finals and two last 16s. 2005 isn't an outlier. Mourinho, despite managing teams throwing serious money around, has won three European trophies in a comparable period and has only made it past a European semi-final once since 2004.
Liverpool fans finally forming an allegiance with Newcastle fans.
There's going to be so much hate.
I'm a Rafa supporter because the man wins things and too many people appear to have bought into the wider media narrative that he's shit. He's very much not.
How has the appointment went down with Newcastle fans?
Everyone is absolutely shitting their pants with excitement.
The club has never appointed a manager of this caliber, a lot of apathy out the window with this move.
Rafa.
Rafael.
Benitez was dreadful in Italy.
Rafa.
Fuck you Vim.
I have mixed feelings about Benitez, but the way some people get virtually hysterical about how awful they think he is always perplexes me.
As Jimmy says, he's not a traditional man-motivator that clubs usually go for in relegation battles. He's a great tactician though, especially defensively. I think he will keep them up, personally.
Credit where it'a due. That's a brilliant appointment.
Big Sam looks like the kind of person that can spot a one at birth. Damn, son. I got my fight back. Can't wait to be deflated and back in my place on Monday.
I assume there's some sort of escape clause in his contract if they get relegated? I can't really picture him managing in the Championship.
Yeah, there's a get out clause in the event of relegation.
Then it's back to reality and Pearson.
Its one of the reasons I want us to stay up. I don't want to chew through managers every 7 months.
I lolled at GS blaming "the media narrative" for people thinking Benitez is shit. That was hardly consensus when he rocked up at Chelsea.
I liked SG's theory on 'Rafa' (that he probably nicked off some podcast). He dons the cups because he's a big fat nerd, but over the course of a league season too much shite you can't plan for happens. Teams raise their game; nobodies bang in lol free-kicks; some cunt lobs a balloon on the pitch; Alex Ferguson breaks into your house and puts the remote in the fridge to convince you that you're losing it... It's why he should have been England manager.
I heard on the radio the other day that he had a better win percentage than the previous 7 or something Napoli managers, and he won two trophies.
It's written for you to do us this time though, just like it usually is the other way around.
Isn't Benitez quite well liked generally though?Liverpool fans finally forming an allegiance with Newcastle fans.
There's going to be so much hate.
Don't know, seems fairly mixed, but that wasn't what I was getting at.
Football fans in general seem to love ripping into Liverpool and Newcastle fans and now they're becoming one.
"Better than Mazzarri" is hardly a statement of success.
He had one of the top 3 squads in Italy, yet in his second year only finished fifth in the league. For all his reputation of going deep in the cups, he got knocked out of the Champions League by Bilbao in the qualifiers. With a very similar squad, Sarri is challenging for the title even though it's only his second season ever coaching in Serie A.
Still, better than the previous 7 managers. FACHT.
None of which had the kind of resources Benitez had at his disposal
Surely if you go back seven managers before Benitez, Napoli were not even in the top division. How is that in any way relevant?
One of his two trophies was also the Italian equivalent of the Charity Shield.
I guess what I'm trying to say is Benitez > McCLaren.
I don't think anyone disputes that. It's a pretty big appointment for a club that's fighting relegation.
Benitez is definitely not shit.
Saint has spoken.
From 2007, that's definitely a downwards trend.
Even more so when you consider that at Valencia and initially Liverpool, he made real waves in the league.
I think he clearly isn't the sort of manager to come in to a MASSIVE club and keep everybody happy (Inter and Real demonstrate this), but he's tactically very strong and he can get 'second tier' teams competing at a very high level. You can cite his record as a downward trend, but Europe is not an arena where managers achieve consistent success, particularly with second tier teams. He has consistently went 'deep' in these competitions. Given the teams he has managed, it's not an incomparable record to someone like Mourinho who has managed teams throwing huge money about and only managed to break through the semi-finals twice in eleven years. His Real team lost three consecutive semi-finals, and they then got thumped by Atletico in the semi-final in 2014. It's not easy.
Are we really treating the UEFA Cup as a serious thing for the purposes of this discussion? Because you can quibble over CL vs League fairly enough, but the UEFA Cup isn't in the same ballpark as either.
It's clearly not an equitable competition, but it is treated with some degree of seriousness on the continent. See: Sevilla.
Similarly, I reiterate again that he hasn't been managing Real Madrid, a 'free-spending' Inter or other clubs throwing money about to buy the best players. He has managed second-tier teams (regardless of historical performance), and one must consider his achievements in this context. Two La Liga titles with Valencia and a European Cup with modern-day Liverpool are two huge achievements. His future achievements haven't been as strong, but he has continued to demonstrate a clear aptitude for two-legged ties (relative to your average performance, anyway).
He's not Sacchi, but let's not write him off as a complete waste of space.
Why do you keep saying he has 'gone deep' rather than 'gone far'?
Seems an odd phrasing choice.
Because he's swimming with sharks and bossing it.
I've always read it as "going deep" into cup competitions, but given they're synonymous phrases I'm sure you can stretch to changing it to something you're more comfortable with in your head whilst you're skim reading it.
I don't think I've ever seen or heard it before.
GS illusion that Mourinho spends buckets of money has to stop.
Mourinho Real is most likely the only one in real history with a positive saldo. When he was at inter the financial problems were already known and quite big that ended in inter sale. Also he bought mostly rejects or players in their careers final stop.
Don't know how this myth still lives on in GS mind.
I am not even mentioning Porto that was the cheapest Porto in the last 20 years.
'Going deep' is American.
Because it's true.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...-makes-10.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...-10418317.html
http://www.givemesport.com/420702-jo...e-spending-one
http://en.espn.co.uk/espn/sport/story/279585.html
But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of your crush on Mourinho.
That is the worst context ever.
Judging a manager on net spend is like judging a dog on net poo. The dog is going to poo one way or the other, you judge the success of the dog on whether or not it learns to poo on time and in the right place. Everything else - what food the dog eats, the size of the garden available to poo in, whether or not the poo is picked up afterwards - is down to the owner.
That is pretty much bang on really. People put too much of the happenings at a club down to managers these days.
Going off the reverse saint principle, Jose has spent bucket loads.
He has spent a lot, but he's won a lot, so I'm not sure what the problem with those figures is. If anything I thought he had spent a lot more at Madrid.
If you're given money to spend and then spend it, what's the problem? Ultimately it should be judged on trophies which he has a fuck ton of.
There's no 'problem' but you'll look a bit silly if you start belittling the achievements of others because of what they've spent (as Mourinho has done) or claiming you haven't spent much (as Saint did on his behalf)
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