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Thread: U.S. Presidential Election 2016 (Sponsored by Betty Croker's Hamburger Helper)

  1. #9351
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    Institutional racism is the biggest red herring in the world. Maybe it exists, but it isn't the problem. It's a canvas that the political left try to paint the real problem onto, because it gives them licence to try and solve the problems in holistic ways that feel comfortable within their worldview.

    The real problem is individual hateful racists - and there are a lot of them, acting independently of one another - committing acts of violence and abusing power.




    Just one example.

  2. #9352
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    So what do you think will change?

    My guess: fuck all.
    I think it's an open question how to change policing in a way that will prevent these things from happening. I think a lot of people are thinking critically about that who weren't before, and it's going to be a more prominent question that politicians face when trying to get elected. That's at least a start. There's not going to be one catch-all solution, but I think it's possible that certain reforms like abolishing cash bail or decriminalizing marijuana will get accelerated.

    But yes, it's always easier to be cynical.

  3. #9353
    Senior Member Lofty's Avatar
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    I was going to say, didnt the Yanks literally plan towns and cities with the express purpose of keeping the non-white population on 'the wrong side of the tracks' from the get go?

    It's alright though lads, David Guetta has it covered: https://twitter.com/AineMcMahon/stat...287973890?s=19

  4. #9354
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    It's not just that cynicism is easier it's that we've seen this before.

    Just within my news watching memory this is Rodney King version who-knows-how-many and the story plays out the same way, lots of hand wringing in the media and some useless measures taken against a few coppers but no wide ranging social change. Same with guns, some of you flip out when your kids are gunned down at school but nothing ever actually gets done about it. I'd love to be proven wrong but I reckon this will be same once the riots blow over, a sticking plaster and then back to normal, maybe not even that seeing as you elected a racist idiot to run everything.

  5. #9355
    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    Obviously it would be awesome to have more racially integrated neighborhoods, but it's hard because it's really not what either side wants or will choose when given the choice. Short of telling people where to live, I'm not sure if anything can fix that. Besides a general economic betterment of minority groups, of course, but that's a separate issue to this segregation talk

  6. #9356
    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    Stuff like redlining is more debatable and as a policy clearly promotes segregation, but on some level then you also have to have the state tell insurance agencies how to price risk, and that again doesn't seem sustainable

    EDIT: Though worth considering this option. I still don't think it would change underlying demographic geography, but it would be easier on those groups
    Last edited by mugbull; 01-06-2020 at 05:02 PM.

  7. #9357
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    I think it's an open question how to change policing in a way that will prevent these things from happening. I think a lot of people are thinking critically about that who weren't before, and it's going to be a more prominent question that politicians face when trying to get elected. That's at least a start. There's not going to be one catch-all solution, but I think it's possible that certain reforms like abolishing cash bail or decriminalizing marijuana will get accelerated.

    But yes, it's always easier to be cynical.
    Remember the Ferguson riots? How much did they help?

    Thing is, you need thousands of police precincts to change their ways independently. Unlikely to happen.

    Ending the "war on drugs", as someone said earlier, would help in putting less people in prison for sure (same as you're saying), which would be a good thing, but would it decrease "random person who did nothing was murdered because cop is a fucking idiot" incidents? I do not know.

  8. #9358
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    I think it's an open question how to change policing in a way that will prevent these things from happening. I think a lot of people are thinking critically about that who weren't before, and it's going to be a more prominent question that politicians face when trying to get elected. That's at least a start. There's not going to be one catch-all solution, but I think it's possible that certain reforms like abolishing cash bail or decriminalizing marijuana will get accelerated.

    But yes, it's always easier to be cynical.
    It's not cynical, it's realistic. This isn't the first time the police have brutalised a black man and kickstarted a riot.

    They're doing the same shit now during the riots with President 'You start looting, we start shooting' Trumps approval.

    You and your friends care, just as people your age did when Vietnam was the cause of the day. But most of the older generation are probably on the side of the police and... you know, there's been a few unnecessary wars since then regardless. People don't listen to teenagers/students.

  9. #9359
    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey M View Post
    It's not cynical, it's realistic. This isn't the first time the police have brutalised a black man and kickstarted a riot.

    They're doing the same shit now during the riots with President 'You start looting, we start shooting' Trumps approval.

    You and your friends care, just as people your age did when Vietnam was the cause of the day. But most of the older generation are probably on the side of the police and... you know, there's been a few unnecessary wars since then regardless. People don't listen to teenagers/students.
    It also doesn't help that young adults will simply never turn out to vote at the same rate as the boomers

  10. #9360
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugbull View Post
    Obviously it would be awesome to have more racially integrated neighborhoods, but it's hard because it's really not what either side wants or will choose when given the choice. Short of telling people where to live, I'm not sure if anything can fix that. Besides a general economic betterment of minority groups, of course, but that's a separate issue to this segregation talk
    Quote Originally Posted by mugbull View Post
    Stuff like redlining is more debatable and as a policy clearly promotes segregation, but on some level then you also have to have the state tell insurance agencies how to price risk, and that again doesn't seem sustainable

    EDIT: Though worth considering this option. I still don't think it would change underlying demographic geography, but it would be easier on those groups
    Yeah, I don't know what the solution to the problem is today. Redlining is just an example, in response to Jimmy, of how institutional policies 1) were clearly racist 2) led to racial inequalities.

    Obviously some segregation will happen naturally just because we're human. The problem is when that segregation is both clearly racist and enforced by the government.

    I just realized I meant to post this video instead of the Vox one above:


  11. #9361
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    Almost as if there's more of them.

  12. #9362
    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shindig View Post
    Almost as if there's more of them.
    Rate, my man, rate

  13. #9363
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    It's not just that cynicism is easier it's that we've seen this before.

    Just within my news watching memory this is Rodney King version who-knows-how-many and the story plays out the same way, lots of hand wringing in the media and some useless measures taken against a few coppers but no wide ranging social change. Same with guns, some of you flip out when your kids are gunned down at school but nothing ever actually gets done about it. I'd love to be proven wrong but I reckon this will be same once the riots blow over, a sticking plaster and then back to normal, maybe not even that seeing as you elected a racist idiot to run everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    Remember the Ferguson riots? How much did they help?

    Thing is, you need thousands of police precincts to change their ways independently. Unlikely to happen.

    Ending the "war on drugs", as someone said earlier, would help in putting less people in prison for sure (same as you're saying), which would be a good thing, but would it decrease "random person who did nothing was murdered because cop is a fucking idiot" incidents? I do not know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey M View Post
    It's not cynical, it's realistic. This isn't the first time the police have brutalised a black man and kickstarted a riot.

    They're doing the same shit now during the riots with President 'You start looting, we start shooting' Trumps approval.

    You and your friends care, just as people your age did when Vietnam was the cause of the day. But most of the older generation are probably on the side of the police and... you know, there's been a few unnecessary wars since then regardless. People don't listen to teenagers/students.
    It seems like you guys are saying that since things didn't change before in similar circumstances, they're not going to change now. And all I'm saying is that it's possible things will change, even just a little, and that believing in that possibility makes change more likely than being 'realistic' and writing it all off.

    In contrast with the Ferguson protests @Pepe is the fact that this is in every city in the US. And it has pierced the awareness and dominated the conversation of my mostly white circle in a way that Ferguson did not. Not that that will lead to some magical solution, but it's a difference from 2015. As I read someone on twitter saying, "you know shit's bad when they're rioting in Salt Lake City."

    I mean, it's not like protests never changed anything ever.

  14. #9364
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    It's also fallen apart into dickhead lawlessness across the board in an election year, so it stands a solid chance of blowing up in all your faces.

  15. #9365
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    Police showing solidarity with the protesters might be the game-changer. At some point, police are tired of dealing with this shit too. Can change come from within?

  16. #9366
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Arne View Post
    Lewis Hamilton having a go at his fellow drivers today for not speaking out. Maybe it's because they just don't give a flying fuck about American politics.
    Especially when he’s one of the ‘whitest’ men on the planet.


    .
    Last edited by Giggles; 01-06-2020 at 05:37 PM.

  17. #9367
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    It seems like you guys are saying that since things didn't change before in similar circumstances, they're not going to change now. And all I'm saying is that it's possible things will change, even just a little, and that believing in that possibility makes change more likely than being 'realistic' and writing it all off.

    In contrast with the Ferguson protests @Pepe is the fact that this is in every city in the US. And it has pierced the awareness and dominated the conversation of my mostly white circle in a way that Ferguson did not. Not that that will lead to some magical solution, but it's a difference from 2015. As I read someone on twitter saying, "you know shit's bad when they're rioting in Salt Lake City."

    I mean, it's not like protests never changed anything ever.
    Hopefully you're right but I doubt it to the point of near certainty. Sandy Hook is probably the most tragic thing to happen in recent memory. It's inconceivable and downright immoral that no change came off the back of it. And yet...

  18. #9368
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    It seems like you guys are saying that since things didn't change before in similar circumstances, they're not going to change now. And all I'm saying is that it's possible things will change, even just a little, and that believing in that possibility makes change more likely than being 'realistic' and writing it all off.
    It could change, but "the conversation" hasn't moved an inch forward from "institutional racism", so I am not setting my hopes too high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    In contrast with the Ferguson protests @Pepe is the fact that this is in every city in the US. And it has pierced the awareness and dominated the conversation of my mostly white circle in a way that Ferguson did not. Not that that will lead to some magical solution, but it's a difference from 2015. As I read someone on twitter saying, "you know shit's bad when they're rioting in Salt Lake City."
    No offense, but this is nothing but a hobby in our circles. A way to be part of something. Like the Women's march of the Science march or whatever.

    Fwiw, it is not like I think that things will NEVER change. They slowly but surely do. I just don't think some white kids "rioting" in Salt Lake City means much.

  19. #9369
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    It's also fallen apart into dickhead lawlessness across the board in an election year, so it stands a solid chance of blowing up in all your faces.
    That's true. I guess everyone should just put their anger aside for six months and come back in December.

  20. #9370
    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    That's true. I guess everyone should just put their anger aside for six months and come back in December.
    You say that sarcastically, but yeah, they should. Especially if Trump is re-elected and then riot even harder

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    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    Wait until the cop gets cleared of all charges.

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    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Massive crowd of wankers protesting in Dublin at the minute too. Must need a few flat screens for lockdown.

  23. #9373
    Senior Member Boydy's Avatar
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    Ignore these cynical fucks, Spoon. Go burn something.

  24. #9374
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    Cause of death is asphyxia. I can't see the copper getting off with this now.

  25. #9375
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugbull View Post
    You say that sarcastically, but yeah, they should. Especially if Trump is re-elected and then riot even harder
    That’s not how anger works unless you’re a robot. Besides nobody would’ve remembered this in six months if there weren’t the protests right now. Just like you probably know who Michael Brown is but not Philando Castile.

    Cornel West said it well the other day, it would be disturbing if these tapes came out and there weren’t people in the streets.

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    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    I know it's not how anger works and I know it's gonna happen regardless, but Lewis is right there. Like I said earlier, rioting has been a thing forever and it never works in the rioting group's favor, unless the rioting happens with a mission in mind which it isn't here.

  27. #9377
    The Artist Formerly Known as Taz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    Cornel West said it well the other day, it would be disturbing if these tapes came out and there weren’t people in the streets.
    This is the absolute truth of it and makes it all very simple to understand.

    I just can't believe there's not been more deaths when cops, business owners and grannies are rolling with a shottie and a Desert Eagle.

  28. #9378
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    @mok

    I agree that Lewis might be right (not that things have been so great with Democratic presidents either). But I find it kind of disconcerting the way you and other people I know can coolly and objectively critique their tactics, and how rioting might be detrimental to their cause.

    As an American, do you not feel any investment or responsibility in the cause represented by these protests? Isn’t it everyone’s cause?

  29. #9379
    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    In any case most protests have been pretty peaceful. I think a majority of people realize what’s at stake

  30. #9380
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    Cornel West said it well the other day, it would be disturbing if these tapes came out and there weren’t people in the streets.
    I mean, I agree with that. I am all for riots. I just don't think they'll do much.

  31. #9381
    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    @mok

    I agree that Lewis might be right (not that things have been so great with Democratic presidents either). But I find it kind of disconcerting the way you and other people I know can coolly and objectively critique their tactics, and how rioting might be detrimental to their cause.

    As an American, do you not feel any investment or responsibility in the cause represented by these protests? Isn’t it everyone’s cause?
    Look at it this way. More people will have a negative opinion about black people than 2 weeks ago. If the focus stayed on the murder, everyone could get behind that. The problem is these riots always happen after the fact, so even though most protests are peaceful, things get out of hand and big parts of communities are destroyed. But more importantly, people go from empathizing with the man and the community as a whole to being afraid of them again. It’s inevitable, but sad, and it truly does hurt their cause.


    People keep saying that neighborhoods can be rebuilt etc but studies show huge deteriorations, divestment, loss of business in areas that are hotspots of riots. It’s not making anyone’s lives better.

    As for me saying “their cause”, well, it is their cause. I can support it and advocate for it but it’s their cause, not mine.

  32. #9382
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugbull View Post
    In any case most protests have been pretty peaceful. I think a majority of people realize what’s at stake
    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    I mean, I agree with that. I am all for riots. I just don't think they'll do much.


    I think what some people including myself have found frustrating, and I know this board is a different context than most so I’m talking more generally, is how ready a lot of people are to condemn the riots while remaining either silent or fatalistic about the murder itself.

  33. #9383
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    Anyone that isn't a cunt understands what's happening and why. The attitude of the Police in the US is disgusting, especially towards those of darker hues. It has been that way since the inception of your country.

    It's a funny old country, America. It's all about FREEDOM, but you have some of the most invasive Police forces in the world and they are treated as sacrosanct. Fucking Boomers.

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    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    My man Lewis might be the BEST POSTER EVAR!, but the way he always focuses on the looting as if everyone was part of it or that was the only thing going on does bother me a bit.

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    The Artist Formerly Known as Taz
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    These differing autopsy results sound a major development but coverage seems low-key.

  36. #9386
    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    My man Lewis might be the BEST POSTER EVAR!, but the way he always focuses on the looting as if everyone was part of it or that was the only thing going on does bother me a bit.
    Teacher's pet finally makes (sort of) a stand - let's see how it plays out

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    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    It's the only thing with a shelf life. Matey isn't coming back to life; the police aren't reforming any time soon; etc. etc. Meanwhile lol you've trashed your community, sullied the original protest, and you're probably going to prison for two years over a pair of trainers.

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    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Focusing on the looters, though, that is usually used to ignore the problem that caused the riots in the first place and/or to say "see, they are savages, so they had it coming."

    It (looting) is definitely a bonehead approach, but you can't control everyone.

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    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    My man Lewis might be the BEST POSTER EVAR!, but the way he always focuses on the looting as if everyone was part of it or that was the only thing going on does bother me a bit.
    Yeah, that’s it. It’s an extremely revealing behaviour shared by many whites in the US.

    Hell, I don’t like the riots either. I just think they’re slightly besides the point.

  40. #9390
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/202...ement-delayed/

    Electronic Arts had planned to today announce Madden NFL 21, the latest annual sequel in their American football series. But in light of the protests, unrest, and violence in America right now after Minneapolis police killed unarmed Black man George Floyd, it didn’t seem the time. “Our immediate attention is on actions we can take to drive change against the unjust treatment and systemic bias that is plaguing the nation and our world,” EA Sports said in a surprising statement.

  41. #9391
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    Sony did the same with the Playstation 5 reveal.

  42. #9392
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    It's the only thing with a shelf life. Matey isn't coming back to life; the police aren't reforming any time soon; etc. etc. Meanwhile lol you've trashed your community, sullied the original protest, and you're probably going to prison for two years over a pair of trainers.


    Yeah lol at these idiots, why don’t they just shut up and take it?

    That’s what you’re saying.

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    Not to mention all the whites' being pushed over in Phonics' posts. Policing is fundamentally wrong in the United States.

  44. #9394
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    Focusing on the looters, though, that is usually used to ignore the problem that caused the riots in the first place and/or to say "see, they are savages, so they had it coming."

    It (looting) is definitely a bonehead approach, but you can't control everyone.
    There is an element of self-fulfilment in it, which is what my original point was about. Black people kill each other in stupendous numbers, as well as killing a disproportionate amount of police officers; and then they wonder why the police are 'militarised' and operate with their tails up.

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    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Ah, yes, the one where black people are to blame for centuries of oppression and segregation, and racism doesn’t exist.

    You could’ve been an alt right star if you weren’t such a shut-in Lewis.

    Edit It’s especially remarkable for a history student to so thoroughly overlook the history of these things.

  46. #9396
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    While this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    Black people kill each other in stupendous numbers, as well as killing a disproportionate amount of police officers.
    might be factually true, it still does not in any way justify cops who killed innocent, unarmed civilians walking free.

  47. #9397
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    It's been a bad few weeks for Lewis. He's going to need a strong summer.

  48. #9398
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    This has always been his stance, nothing new here.

  49. #9399
    I used to be funny.
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    He's our Brian Clough. It gets to a point where all you can say is, "It's good to see him in good health." when he starts talking shite.

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    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    Almost as if "having no filter" and knowing a lot about nuclear-era politics doesn't particularly make you good at anything else

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