The Cricket Thread

[Jimmy Floyd]

In the stupid opinion stakes this series it's been hotly contested between:

- The Root conversion rate saga
- WHY DON'T WE PICK OUR QUICK BOWLERS (clue: they are shit)
- 'Moeen Ali isn't getting any turn, why don't we pick a specialist spinner instead'
- That 48 hour period when everyone decided Mark Wood was the panacea, before he played in a warm up game and the thought receded
- Drop Cook now / Cook coming to the end
- Blaming batsmen for scoring loads of runs then getting out (linked to the Root thing)
- Bring back KP (seen this a ridiculous amount)
- Too many counties / not enough quality (this is always a catch all dreadful argument whenever England lose)
- Why isn't the series on free to air TV (away Tests have NEVER in history been on free to air TV)

[Ian]

Definitely sounds like Malan's fault for only getting 140-whatever. What a bastard.

Is Pietersen even still playing? If so is it just for the Pune Pulverisers or whatever?

[Waffdon]

Just hipsters like me who only watch the more important Series.

What a guy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There was a truly classic Pietersen innings this last summer when he came back and attempted to play some T20s for Surrey. He clearly wasn't fit for the game with a knee injury, but played anyway because I'm pretty sure our marketing department picks the T20 XIs. He came out to bat (against McCullum's Middlesex), completely fucked his knee on the first ball and had to call for a runner, which I think was a seething Jason Roy who'd just been out himself. KP then waddled on for about five balls before being caught in the ring flailing at a short one.

But no, apparently he should still be in England's Test team says about 30% of Twitter. Suppose we could get Gower back in as well.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Random BBC comment with 19 upvotes and 1 downvote:

64. Posted by Yogi on
2 hours ago
If Wood is remotely fit Broad has to be dropped in 4th and 5th tests.

STOP BEING WRONG

[Jimmy Floyd]

These aren't even the moron comments, these are the highly voted ones.

What on earth are our last 6 batsmen up to. Really poor batting. M y 14 year old grandson can bat better than all of them. Always the same story with our tail. No bottle. No support for our two centurions. Typical.

He can't.

Cook out cheaply again. Coming to the end of his career I think. And Moen out for a duck. He is in the team as a batsmen who can bowl spin. Yet he is not getting any spin on the flat wickets, unlike Lyon. If he is not getting any runs either, we might as well bring in a specialist spinner who bats at 11

WHO?

Time to give Broad a rest to see if he can recover his appetite for the game. At the moment he’s like Moeen, cant bat can’t bowl. Eddie Jones wouldn’t keep him in an England side. Seems like some people are undroppable.

Eddie Jones is a RUGBY coach, if he was in charge it would be quite worrying. What would Pep Guardiola do? Have mid off a bit straighter?

Champion bowlers adapt to the conditions they're playing in....unfortunately Anderson on numerous tours to Aus has been not much more than a glorified net bowler...16 Test Matches down under at a bowling average of almost 37 is miles away from being worthy of being called a top class strike bowler.

He's NOT A STRIKE BOWLER, he's a swing and seam prober.

I think Moeen needs to remember what he's in the side for - and it's certainly not just his bowling. For him to get out for 0 after the 2 innings before him is frankly a disgrace. A good 30 or 40 would have made all the difference and could certainly be the difference come day 5.

Jesus.

Where are our options, the occasional leggie, the Graham Gooch type golden arm partnership breakers, do top order batsmen not bowl at all any more??

'Change of bowling from the Nullarbor Dinkum End... James Vince'. That will get the fear into them.

The endless stream of off-pitch stories has created a sense that the players aren't taking it too seriously - which would be tolerable if the on-pitch performances were better. Hence frustration at the players.

Endless stream of... they've been to a bar. TWICE.

[niko_cee]

What would Pep Guardiola do? Have mid off a bit straighter?

He'd probably have the fielders throw the ball between themselves until the batsmen and/or umpires got bored and walked off.

[Kikó]

He'd press high so you'd have 6 slips and the rest around the bat.

Wicket keeper as a fake ball playing keeper.

[Waffdon]

Just hipsters like me who only watch the more important Series.

What a guy.

To add to this, he’s genuinely my first sporting memory. Running home from school to see him smashing 157(?) to take home the series in 2005, arms aloft with that horrific blonde striped hair (obviously copied it though). I think that, alongside the fact he’s clearly one of the most naturally gifted and exciting batsman helps. Attempting and failing his switch shot in high school when it had all it’s controversy

Monty and Anderson at Cardiff (I think) donning them senseless was also a beautiful moment.

[Jimmy Floyd]

158.

He was a great batsman although he was helped by playing in a lineup which always had top grinders around him (Cook, Trott, Collingwood etc) which allowed him to play the way he did. If he played today he would get volleys for chucking his wicket away, as started to happen in the 13/14 series.

Stokes is quite like him in a lot of ways, different players obviously but same draw. The ECB always waste the flair players, but the ECB are categorically morons from top to bottom so it's no surprise.

[Danny]

Wouldnt he fit right in with this new brand of cricket we play?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I dunno. He's one of those players where the peaks were so good that we probably slightly overrate his overall output in our minds. Statisically he's the almost exact equal in every respect of Ross Taylor, make of that what you will. I mean Ross Taylor's a good player and all, but you know.

If Peak Kevin were in this team I guess he and Root would be the axis and Root would score more and get out less, but lack the spectacular matchwinning 150s that Kevin came up with every 30 games or so.

[niko_cee]

lol

This is what we should have done yesterday.

Very much fucked out of fuck now.

[ItalAussie]

I'm beginning to think that the selectors could call me up for the Melbourne test and I'd put in a match-turning first innings score at this rate.

[ItalAussie]

Random BBC comment with 19 upvotes and 1 downvote:



STOP BEING WRONG

Broad has been basically unthreatening all match, and most of the series to be honest.

[ItalAussie]

I dunno. He's one of those players where the peaks were so good that we probably slightly overrate his overall output in our minds. Statisically he's the almost exact equal in every respect of Ross Taylor, make of that what you will. I mean Ross Taylor's a good player and all, but you know.

I was just the other day commenting that Ross Taylor might be the most underrated player in test cricket. I really rate him.

[niko_cee]

Wood is, genuinely (and somewhat oddly), the least 'threatening' bowler in test history though. He averages nearly 45 in England.

[niko_cee]

Holy shit, it's Mitch Marsh who's piling them on.

[ItalAussie]

From Andy Zaltzman:

STAT UPDATE. Mitchell Marsh has scored more 1st-innings runs in this Ashes than Cook & Root combined.

[ItalAussie]

If another wicket goes down before the end of the day, I'd bring in Starc and tell him to have a proper crack at it. He gets out for 12? No worries. But the pitch is flat and true, so he could easily be on 50 off about 30 balls if he comes off.

England's heads have been down since Shaun Marsh started looking settled, even though they were still 150 ahead. There's a mental issue in play here. I reckon they legitimately don't believe they can dismiss Steve Smith.

[Kikó]

We might be able to make Australia bat again.

Only joking.

[Max Power]

Not really much excuse for not drawing this Test. But we all know what’s going to happen.

Ugh I really can’t be arsed with this shit anymore. Wake me up in 20 years when some other Marsh child is 100*.

[niko_cee]

Are there any more Marsh siblings who fancy a test 100?

What's Geoff up to these days?

[Ian]

England's heads have been down since Shaun Marsh started looking settled, even though they were still 150 ahead. There's a mental issue in play here. I reckon they legitimately don't believe they can dismiss Steve Smith.

British sportspeople (notably in team sports, I suppose?) having issues with their mentality is not a surprise.

I was talking to somebody during this series (might have been @Cord) about how you can see it even when we're better than Australia. There have been series where if we'd played our best the whole time we could have swept the series or at least won it to nil. As it is Australia always win at least one even when they lose and it's more likely to be 2-1 or 3-1.

Specifically with cricket we're not determined enough in victory or defeat. In the case of the former not determined enough to grind an opponent into the mud and the latter not determined enough to make life difficult for the opposition or find a way to win.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've always thought it's because we're the imperial power, invented all these sports, and don't have that visceral hunger or have anything to prove. Other countries have something to prove.

That said, we aren't the only team Australia have scored 500/4 against on a flat one in recent times. This Test should be a bore draw, the problem is only two of our batting lineup turned up. We are poor at batting.

[ItalAussie]

And your bowlers can't do much if the pitch doesn't give you sideways movement. That's your real problem.

A team can win getting 400 in the first innings if their bowlers can make things happen - it's enough runs.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yeah but we know that coming into the game, so the batsmen need 550 instead of 400 and then hope that scoreboard pressure does part of the job. These are the best bowlers we have.

[Shindig]

I figure with cricket, there's a ton of time to think which, if you're already in that frame of mind, must be harrowing.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You're spot on - cricketers have a disproportionately high level of mental illness/suicide.

On the other hand you get amazing friendships out of it.

[ItalAussie]

Yeah but we know that coming into the game, so the batsmen need 550 instead of 400 and then hope that scoreboard pressure does part of the job. These are the best bowlers we have.

Presumably you should be training your bowlers to deal with away conditions, rather than letting them rely solely on a style that gets them as far as the English channel.

It's not like it can't be done. Flintoff was a real handful on pitches with bounce, and I feel like Broad at least should have the tools to do the same.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Labelling all overseas pitches the same is not right though, we won easily in South Africa two years ago knocking them over repeatedly. Australian pitches are the flattest in the world, Broad and Anderson are now both past 30 and we don't currently have anyone rapid who is also consistent enough to play Test cricket.

If I were in charge coming into this series, I'd have been a lot more defensively minded than Bayliss is prepared to be - I'd have brought batsmen (such as Rory Burns and Haseeb Hameed) who are prepared to grit it out for hours. In the bowling department, unfortunately we just don't currently have a quick, aggressive bowler like Flintoff or Harmison, or Bob Willis - these things are rare. Remember when Australia couldn't find a top class spinner between Warne and Lyon, because there just wasn't one out there? It's like that.

There are a couple of good ones in the youth ranks at the moment, Saqib Mahmood and George Garton. Sam Curran is also a superb all-rounder who bowls skiddy aggressive left armers. We'll be back but it's just not there at the moment.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Also, I blame the ECB for ruining Steven Finn in their total incompetence in every arena. There's a developing belief that bowlers get slower and worse once they've been into the ECB centre at Loughborough.

[niko_cee]

It's not just movement off the pitch, it's movement in the air as well. It's moved a bit once in this series and Australia were out for fuck all. Why don't their batsmen learn to play the moving ball? Same reason we don't turn out human rocket launchers to wing it down. There are obvious frailties in this England team, but I still reckon you play this series in England and the result is entirely different. Away tours have always been difficult, but I am beginning to wonder if the modern game is exarcebating that to the point where teams are almost completely unable to perform in alien conditions for a sustained period. There is obviously the fact that England have notable absentees (and have also made strange picks). Everyone will look at Stokes, but Roland-Jones was probably the bowler of the summer, and whilst I doubt he would have been supremely effective down under, he'd have been a decent option. A few other injuries in the bowling ranks, added to the fact we don't have a genuine spinner (can't afford to pick one without Stokes in the team in all likelihood - to pick up the 4th seamer spot slack) and it's a bit of a heady mix. Everyone looks at the series we won in Australia, but that was a freak, defined by career-best (defining) performances from a number of players, and the fact Australia rolled out pitches that did stuff (for whatever reason, aside from Brisbane natch).

Mostly we've just played a bit shit as well though. Poor lengths from the bowlers, awful shot selection from many batsmen, and insufficient use from the one major advantage we have had (winning the toss 3 times).

[ItalAussie]

I'm not going to pretend for a moment that we have a barrage of all-condition bowlers by any means, but Lyon learned to bowl on the subcontinent, and it made him an infinitely better bowler. And Starc and Hazelwood have both shown themselves to be perfectly capable in England, at least. I reckon Starc's bowling in particular adapts nicely to English conditions.

International-calibre players should be able to change up their style a little if it isn't working. And Hazelwood shows that rocket pace isn't the only way to get wickets in Australia, too, so it's not just that you came over here with a bunch of medium-pacers who rely on swing but can't swing it here (although that didn't help). But coming on a tour with flat decks without a real spin bowler is an idiotic move - if you don't have a good one, you pick the best you've got, and you trust him to find his feet over time.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Our best one is Moeen Ali.

Taking Mason Crane with clearly no intention of playing him was mental, and our selectors are idiots.

But as far as 'changing up their style' is concerned, what does that actually mean? Bowlers only bowl one way, so you must be referring to the team strategy and plans they bowl to, which is a team decision. As a rule we bowl too short everywhere and we also have a really unhealthy obsession with away Ashes tours requiring some sort of extra aggression. Who was it who won us the series in 10/11, it was Cook and Trott boring the shit out of Australians, and Bresnan boring the shit out of them with the ball 'bowling dry', and they can't cope with it. There's no point trying to fight fire with fire. Bayliss, being Australian himself, massively lacks understanding of this.

[niko_cee]

I guess Cummins must be fairly close to Root in terms of series runs now, and way ahead of Cook.

That probably goes for Vince as well.

Abandon ship.

Why did Australia declare with Paine on 49*?

I don't doubt Australia have the bowlers to do well in England. Not the batsmen though, and that more than levels it up.

I agree the Moeen/Crane thing is difficult. As I said above, I almost feel you have to have Stokes to play Moeen. They can both pick up bowling slack where conditions require, but neither is a specialist. In Australia conditions REQUIRE a spinner who can exercise some control, but without Stokes they can't (or don't feel they can) afford to go in with just 3 seam bowlers (I hesitate to say quicks). It's always harder for an English spinner to do that anyway as Australians tend to play spin much better (well, most of them, at least by comparison to English batsmen). They get away with Moeen in England because the pace bowlers give them control and he can be used more sparingly/situationaly. Take that away and he's being expected to do a job he just isn't up to, but you can't not pick him, because he's a legend.

That stat about England scoring 400 and losing by an innings was telling. Whether it's the aggressive brand or whatever (it probably is) we just struggle when then scoring is heavy. I have long said the best way to beat England is with absolute roads. We never cash in to the same extent as the other team, and then succumb to the fatal scoreboard pressure.

Vince and Malan to 10/11 Brisbane this one . . .

[Jimmy Floyd]

There is one thing I think is often overlooked which is shared by only 2 of the 10 Test nations (now 3 of the 12, I suppose) which is cold weather. It's only us and the Kiwis who play in less than 25 degrees celsius on a regular basis. OK, maybe Hobart and that freak place in Himachal Pradesh, but that's it.

To bat for long periods in scorchingly hot weather and make a career out of it, you need to develop a certain kind of physical concentration which I don't think our players necessarily do.

[niko_cee]

Rain in Perth to save the day.

That truly would be a Christmas miracle. Particularly whilst every other Aussie capital is about 48 degrees.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I see Anderson has inconveniently got his series average down to 26 as well.

[niko_cee]

Aye. Same number of wickets and at a better average than Hazlewood, and way better than Cummins.

Send him home!

[Danny]

Apparently Broad had 5 wickets at 61. Thats legitimately 5 more than I remember.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I reckon Broad will decline before Anderson. I'm not convinced Jimmy doesn't have 600 wickets in him.

[niko_cee]

If this test was being played in England, with the weather forecast as it is, there is almost no chance there would be a result. I don't imagine that will hold for there, but it's a good source of hope.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They'll only need an hour to do us in.

A weather escape here and then a Boxing Day rally to put the panic in them would be on the funny side, I must admit.

[ItalAussie]

Why did Australia declare with Paine on 49*?

Ninth wicket fell, and they decided to spare Hazelwood the bother.

[ItalAussie]

That stat about England scoring 400 and losing by an innings was telling. Whether it's the aggressive brand or whatever (it probably is) we just struggle when then scoring is heavy. I have long said the best way to beat England is with absolute roads. We never cash in to the same extent as the other team, and then succumb to the fatal scoreboard pressure.

I still think the problem is your bowlers, not your batsmen. 400 is defensible - even on a road - if you can reliably take wickets.

I read somewhere that you've conceded 500 runs in an innings eight times since about 2012, and not once in the eight years preceding. Or something like that. Either way, you're conceding more big scores now than you were before.

[niko_cee]

You can't lose 6-35 on a 600 pitch, even if it is the last 6 wickets (nor can you really be 100-4 on the same pitch, although maybe that's an improvement on the 30-3 MO from a few years ago), but yeah, our bowling was better in the preceding 8 years, where we won in Australia and India and pretty much everywhere (although not the UAE or Windies - home of the death roads).

[ItalAussie]

Yep. That 2010-11 tour is the only time your bowlers have managed to come here and look vaguely threatening. You should figure out whatever they did then, and try and replicated it, because it 100% worked.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's not the bowling Ital. It's been the same problem with this side for about five years, or whenever Trott lost it, the batsmen chuck their wickets away and the bowlers get no rest. If anything we're incredibly lucky that Anderson has managed to go on being world class for this long. 400 was an ordinary score on this track and we only got it because 5 and 6 built a partnership and got hundreds. 8 times out of 10 we'd have gone over for 270 there.

You can't just magically create dangerous bowling, but you can ask the batsmen to concentrate.

Stuart Broad is a disgrace by the way and should be batting 11.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yep. That 2010-11 tour is the only time your bowlers have managed to come here and look vaguely threatening. You should figure out whatever they did then, and try and replicated it, because it 100% worked.

What we did then was 'had a world class spinner'. Nothing more nothing less. Same thing you lot have now. In fact I'd say your attack now is better than ours then, in the conditions.

The difference in 10/11 was that Cook and Trott batted you out of the series.