Drugs and the legalisation/criminalisation of them

[phonics]

Sponsored by this article

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...ster-1.2413509

Drug users will be able to use supervised injecting rooms in Dublin next year, followed shortly afterwards by Cork, Galway and Limerick, according to the Minister in charge of the National Drugs Strategy.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, who is set to announce the radical move in a speech to the London School of Economics on Monday, told The Irish Times that medically supervised injection rooms “will happen next year”.


In his address he will also outline plans to decriminalise the possession of small amounts of drugs, including heroin, cocaine and cannabis, for personal use, as part of a “radical cultural shift” in the approach to drug addiction.


“I am firmly of the view that there needs to be a cultural shift in how we regard substance misuse if we are to break this cycle and make a serious attempt to tackle drug and alcohol addiction,” said Mr Ó Ríordáin


He added that compassion had to be brought to the issue, and that as far as possible drug addiction should be removed from the criminal justice system.


The Minister’s address comes in the wake of leaked report from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime indicating it will call for the decriminalisation of consumption of drugs on public health and human rights grounds. Mr Ó Ríordáin says the heads of a new Misuse of Drugs Bill are being drawn up which will “unblock” the legislative obstacles to opening injection rooms.


The Minister hoped the new Bill would be enacted “early next year”. Regulations will follow, which will mean the State’s first injecting room open in the capital.

[Boydy]

The Republic continues to move far ahead of NI in terms of social issues.

[Henry]

Great news. Dublin city centre is plagued by addicts, and prohibition doesn't work.

(Ironically this has occured because none of the political representatives wanted methodone clinics in their constituencies, so it all went to the centre.)

[phonics]

We've had these for a decade or so now. They work quite well in the sense that I don't see any addicts just scuttering about the town like I did in Swansea. Although that probably had a higher users per capita count at the end of the day.

[Henry]

The Republic continues to move far ahead of NI in terms of social issues.

They covered themselves in glory yet again in the gay marriage vote today, I see.

[Multi]

Methadone clinics are great, they save society a lot of money and trouble overall.

[John Arne]

https://youtu.be/4Z4j2CrJRn4?t=8m50s

In a similar vein(!), congress, particularly Bob Barr, was trying to block needle exchanges in DC, despite already having them in his own state, and them being extremely effective in reducing HIV contraction.

[QE Harold Flair]

Should be great, encouraging self-medication and the zombiefication of the masses. Deal with problems? No, just go and zone out and pretend they don't exist!

[John Arne]

What a surprise.... Harold disagrees.

[QE Harold Flair]

I don't think my opposition to this is a surprise to anyone. I'm sorry I don't agree - that would be lovely, wouldn't it?

[QE Harold Flair]

Great news. Dublin city centre is plagued by addicts, and prohibition doesn't work.

(Ironically this has occured because none of the political representatives wanted methodone clinics in their constituencies, so it all went to the centre.)

That's because users are never punished. The stricter the punishment for drug possession/dealing in countries the less of a problem it tends to be.

[Toby]

The stricter the punishment for drug possession/dealing in countries the less of a problem it tends to be.

[citation needed]

[QE Harold Flair]

It's called common sense. Obviously the drug problem is scarce in countries which carry the death penalty for drugs offences. Not that I support the death penalty but, at the extremes, it does go to show that punishment does indeed prevent crime in this field.

[Toby]

It's called common sense.

I thought that might be coming.

[John Arne]

Vietnam and Thailand has strict laws againt drug use... yet they are everywhere. That seems to conflict with your stance somewhat. Do you have any evidence other than "common sense"?

[Henry]

That's because users are never punished.

If you'd read the article you'd know that one of the reasons for this is that the justice system is completely inundated with drug offenses.

The stricter the punishment for drug possession/dealing in countries the less of a problem it tends to be.

This is so in some Asian societies (which you abhor) but those are very authoritarian in general, with things like the death penalty for drug offenses.
In western cultures, the opposite is true. Exhibit America, again.

[Toby]

Vietnam and Thailand has strict laws againt drug use... yet they are everywhere. That seems to conflict with your stance somewhat. Do you have any evidence other than "common sense"?

Iran has the highest per capita use of opiates of any country in the world, despite also having some of the harshest penalties. He's talking out his hole and I fear another e-defeat awaits him.

[Henry]

Iran has the highest per capita use of opiates of any country in the world, despite also having some of the harshest penalties. He's talking out his hole and I fear another e-defeat awaits him.

In fairness, I had thought that East Asian drug policies had reduced the number of users. But I'm not an expert - it's possible that Harold is just full of shit on this as well as everything else.

[QE Harold Flair]

Iran has the highest per capita use of opiates of any country in the world, despite also having some of the harshest penalties. He's talking out his hole and I fear another e-defeat awaits him.

If that's the case then it's the exception and not the rule.

[Luca]

The only place where "the stricter the punishment for drug possession/dealing in countries the less of a problem it tends to be" holds is probably Singapore, but seeing as they'll fine you about a billion quid for chewing gum, it's probably the exception rather than the rule.

Take the example of Portugal, for instance, to see the positive effects decriminalisation can have.

[Toby]

If that's the case then it's the exception and not the rule.

Other countries in the top ten include Afghanistan (obviously due to easy supply, but it is punishable by death), Malaysia (punishable by death), Pakistan (punishable by death) and Mauritius (punishable by at least life in prison / possible death).

Go further down the list and it remains relatively prevalent in the likes of Burma, Laos, Vietnam and Thailand, despite all having relatively harsh laws.

I'll take your blind faith that strong punishment works as yet another example of your rampant hypocrisy.

[John Arne]

In fairness, I had thought that East Asian drug policies had reduced the number of users. But I'm not an expert - it's possible that Harold is just full of shit on this as well as everything else.

I'm not sure about other ASEAN countries, but here in Vietnam, the Goverment will release bullshit statistics to justify there policies - or easier still, just not report half the crimes.

[Toby]

The only place where "the stricter the punishment for drug possession/dealing in countries the less of a problem it tends to be" holds is probably Singapore, but seeing as they'll fine you about a billion quid for chewing gum, it's probably the exception rather than the rule.

Plus, you know, it's pretty wealthy...

That said, Luxembourg seems to have a surprisingly high level of opiate use. I'm not sure if that's a quirk of reporting given their small population or if they're is genuinely a big problem with it there.

[QE Harold Flair]

This seems to disagree quite violently with the Tobes claims:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...-use-map-world

Opiates are slightly higher in countries where opiates grow which, unsurprisingly, is in Afghanistan, Iran and the like. The other types of drug use are very low compared to anywhere else.

[Boydy]

They covered themselves in glory yet again in the gay marriage vote today, I see.

Yep. Fucking DUP.

[Lewis]

It's an interactive map, Harold.

[mugbull]

Here we go again. Let's please just avoid answering him for once

Decriminalization is the way to go, legalization isn't, imo. Even weed. Everybody is pushing for legalization here, but no one knows the long term mental effects of stuff like that. It shouldn't be a crime to use it, but it shouldn't be publicly available for sale. Same for heroin, crack, etc, which are obviously echelons worse than weed but the principle remains the same.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Is it me or is there an almost exact correlation between cocaine use and the popularity of motorcycle racing?

[Lewis]

Here we go again. Let's please just avoid answering him for once

Decriminalization is the way to go, legalization isn't, imo. Even weed. Everybody is pushing for legalization here, but no one knows the long term mental effects of stuff like that. It shouldn't be a crime to use it, but it shouldn't be publicly available for sale. Same for heroin, crack, etc, which are obviously echelons worse than weed but the principle remains the same.

What about if the state held the monopoly on distribution/production?

[QE Harold Flair]

Possession is decriminalised already, essentially.

[mugbull]

What about if the state held the monopoly on distribution/production?

We have that happening in Colorado and Washington here in the US with marijuana. I don't know what changes will come of it, other than the fact that more people are using it than were before, but it seems kind of haphazard given that its Schedule 1 and no one has done real, long-term medical research on it in like, ever.

[phonics]

Wait, what? Has someone been on a fake Mokbull account the whole time?

[Henry]

"No one knows the long term effect" isn't a reason to keep it illegal in my opinion. We should err on the side of liberality, and let people make their own choices.

Of course, tax revenue is another bonus and it does need to be regulated very strictly.

[mugbull]

Wait, what? Has someone been on a fake Mokbull account the whole time?

what?

I think it is, henry. The common welfare suffers from greater availability to potentially dangerous substances whose long term effects on the brain are unknown. The only core difference between legal and decriminalized is the ability to produce/market, which doesn't seem like a compelling justification for legalization. Who exactly benefits from being able to sell hard drugs? How is that beneficial to society? Tax revenue, sure, but that's fairly minimal, and I guess youd protect against unsafe heroin, but we're already doing needle dispensaries and shit to minimize risk. I guess i just dont see what the point of legalization is.

[Henry]

Freedom is the point.

[GS]

They covered themselves in glory yet again in the gay marriage vote today, I see.

It's quite preposterous, but what can you do. They're just idiots.

Freedom is the point.

Unless its a business or they're rich, at which point the government can spend their money better.

Joking aside, we need to look at the issue afresh. Current policy isn't working. I would advocate strong penalties for drug dealers, treatment for drug users - not that it's that simple, of course.

[Henry]

Unless its a business or they're rich, at which point the government can spend their money better.

What?

[GS]

What?

It's FREEDOM for the masses, unless they're rich at which point they're OPPRESSING people and shouldn't have FREEDOM to spend their money because the government can TAX AND SPEND.

Or something.

[Henry]

It's FREEDOM for the masses, unless they're rich at which point they're OPPRESSING people and shouldn't have FREEDOM to spend their money because the government can TAX AND SPEND.

Or something.

Oh, you're trying to derail the thread into a discussion of economics for some reason. No thanks.

[leedsrevolution]

I think de-criminalisation is certainly the way forward. Saves the police a lot of resources (and money) and simple stoners / pill heads don't get there lives or careers ruined for something relatively innocent and fun.

[GS]

Oh, you're trying to derail the thread into a discussion of economics for some reason. No thanks.

I'm not trying to derail the thread, rather highlight that your call for FREEDOM applies only when it suits.

[ItalAussie]

All tax is theft. And so on.

I met a number of very high achievers at Oxford, and I would say that a decent majority of them were comfortable with the use of recreational marijuana. I'm not saying this to indicate that this is a representative sample, and it's clearly anecdotal rather than statistical, but it does seem fairly reasonable to observe that recreational use of mild drugs doesn't seem to impede mental acuity for a large number of people.

[Boydy]

There's plenty around that wouldn't be classified as mild as well.

[Spoonsky]

I really think that more countries need to be looking at Portugal's example on this.

[Reg]

It's called common sense.

It's really not. Do you think heroin addicts' prime concern is their possible jail time?

[ItalAussie]

There's plenty around that wouldn't be classified as mild as well.

Makes sense, given how prevalent cocaine is within the legal and financial sectors.

[elth]

I've been writing a major paper on this for uni

Also wrote a major paper on why the "common sense" approach to policy problems never works this semester

[Jimmy Floyd]

It never works and worse still, it puts academics out of work.

[elth]

Nah, you could write just as many unreadable journal articles about how instinctive responses to problems are great as you could anything else. Part of being a good academic is being able to research and write bullshit about whatever you happen to have in front of you.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I reckon social sciences journals are probably the worst written things in all written English. Sociology is the absolute worst, by quite a long way actually, but political science and anthropology are pushing hard for those minor podium placings.