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View Poll Results: Cheat?

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  • Yes

    8 72.73%
  • No

    3 27.27%
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Thread: Wiggins, cheat or not?

  1. #1
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    Wiggins, cheat or not?

    Well?

  2. #2
    Bookie Sir Andy Mahowry's Avatar
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    Yep.

    He should just come out and hold his hands up.

  3. #3
    Administrator SvN's Avatar
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    They're all at it.

  4. #4
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    He's a cyclist...

  5. #5
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    Technically no, morally yes. Like basically any sports person you can think of.

  6. #6
    Senior Member -james-'s Avatar
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    Is there any evidence to say that he is, aside from "he's a cyclist lol"?

  7. #7
    Respect the point. Byron's Avatar
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    When everyone cheats, no one cheats.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    They all are.

  9. #9
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    Neither technically, nor morally. It's professional sport. Taking part is for amateurs.

  10. #10
    Administrator Kikó's Avatar
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    All high level sportsman or cheating to some extent. It's better that you don't be so morally twatty about it because when it comes out that the marginal gains are actually drug gains you're going to look a dick.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    If he wasn't Paul Weller on a bike he'd have been labelled a cheating Frenchie/Iti/Spaniard long ago.

    Obtaining PEDs by overplaying your 'asthma' goes against the spirit of anti-doping rules even if it is technically allowed.

  12. #12
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    The thing I find hard to understand is how asthma medications are actually performance enhancing beyond treating your asthma.

    I didn't think bronchodilators did anything unless you had bronchoconstriction (maybe I'm wrong) and I definitely don't see how inhaled steroids are going to be of any benefit whatsoever. They aren't anabolic steroids, they don't big you small bits and big muscles. If anything I'd have thought they'd make you worse.

  13. #13
    I used to be funny.
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    As an asthmatic that's used steroid inhalers, they do have a benefit. There's not a lot of steroid to them but they sit on the lungs and, surprise, make them stronger. I used to use them before going to bed to stop me coughing during the night.

  14. #14
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    @Shindig

    Sorry I didn't explain myself very well.

    Obviously inhaled steroids help your breathing if you actually have asthma. But they work by reducing inflammation. If your airways aren't inflamed (i.e. you don't have asthma) then I don't understand by what mechanism they are going to be beneficial. If you do, then they can only take the inflammation away and at best get you back to what you'd be like if you didn't have asthma.
    Last edited by randomlegend; 09-03-2018 at 11:31 PM.

  15. #15
    Romulus Augustulus ItalAussie's Avatar
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    It seems like an abuse of the therapeutic usage exemptions. Dodgy as hell, but probably alright by the letter of the law (depending on the specific way in which abuse of that rule is defined).

    If Sky hadn't ridden that high horse so hard, it probably wouldn't be as big a deal. But we spent half a decade watching the "plucky underdog Brits honourably sticking it to the nasty, cheating foreigners" narrative, and they got money from the UK government, so you can understand people taking some umbrage.

  16. #16
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    He doesn't really have asthma, so these things help to increase airflow into (around?) his lungs, and, as an anti-inflammatory, have obvious benefits for anyone doing sustained high-intensity exercise.

  17. #17
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    He doesn't really have asthma, so these things help to increase airflow into (around?) his lungs
    It doesn't work like that. If you don't have asthma, and so you don't have constricted bronchi (airways), taking a bronchodilator (like salbumatol) does absolutely nothing. It won't make your airways SUPER BIG so you can do SUPER BREATHING.

    A bit of evidence to back that up:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21083771

    There's some evidence that it's mildly anabolic (muscle building) in massive doses, but realistically you'd need to be taking it orally to get enough systemic absorption to have that effect. Perhaps the swindle is taking it orally and then claiming it's inhaled if you get caught out, but I would have thought the difference in levels would be fairly fucking obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    as an anti-inflammatory, have obvious benefits for anyone doing sustained high-intensity exercise.
    If you managed to inhale enough corticosteroids to absorb enough systemically to have an effect, I'm pretty sure the negatives would massively outweigh any benefits. Corticosteroids might reduce inflammation but they have about a million other effects which you absolutely would not want as a competitive athlete.

    EDIT: There seems to be some (poor quality, anecdotal) evidence that short courses of high dose steroids can be beneficial during training. If there's evidence he's taken oral steroids then yeah, probably cheating. I'd be absolutely stunned if you can get enough systemic absorption from inhaled steroids to have those effects though - I doubt you could do it if you breathed nothing else all day.
    Last edited by randomlegend; 10-03-2018 at 12:07 AM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItalAussie View Post
    It seems like an abuse of the therapeutic usage exemptions. Dodgy as hell, but probably alright by the letter of the law (depending on the specific way in which abuse of that rule is defined).

    If Sky hadn't ridden that high horse so hard, it probably wouldn't be as big a deal. But we spent half a decade watching the "honourable Brits taking on the nasty, cheating foreigners" narrative, and they got money from the UK government, so you can understand people taking some umbrage.
    From what I've read you don't even need a TUE for salbutamol provided you are taking less than the dose limit they set.

  19. #19
    Romulus Augustulus ItalAussie's Avatar
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    Yeah, I imagine Sky were very careful to ensure that they went right up to the line, but not across it.

  20. #20
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    Which would have absolutely no beneficial effect whatsoever, other than returning someone with actual asthma to baseline (at the absolute best).

  21. #21
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    I stand corrected. Still, maybe asthmatics should just get lost. Shit out, lads. Unlucky.

  22. #22
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    I'm loving how sure Ital is that British cycling are cheats after he defended this:



    from an Aussie.

  23. #23
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    I don't know the answer to the asthma thing either, but it sounds similar to a gluten free diet not turning you into superman if you're not a coeliac.

  24. #24
    Bookie Sir Andy Mahowry's Avatar
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    It's well documented that Mark Henry was sucking inhalers dry in his WWE days.

    Without them he was only above average strength.

  25. #25
    I used to be funny.
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    Maria Sharapova got her inhalers from a long-time family doctor.

  26. #26
    Pretty Much Amazing Mike's Avatar
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    They’d all be welcomed to my drugs friendly Olympic alternative.

  27. #27
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    He's an upstanding British. Drugs must ave got planted by a dirty facking forrin innit. Oi oi oi oi waaaaar.

  28. #28
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Hands up who went to medical college!

  29. #29
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    This Mick puts all of Mo Farah's shite in one place, and it sounds a bit iffy.

  30. #30
    Administrator Kikó's Avatar
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    He's guilty just like Radcliffe was.

  31. #31
    Senior Member John's Avatar
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    If Farah gets biffed it'll piss on so many people's chips he'll have to go into hiding.

  32. #32
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    I'm halfway through that and it's an interesting read.

    If he gets done it'll either lead to an end of "our plucky boys and girls would never cheat" (which would be nice), or more likely a revisionist approach to his nationality with him being labelled as the "Somalian born athlete" from that point onward.

  33. #33
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    'Mohamed - formerly "Mo" - Farah has today been stripped of his...'

  34. #34
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Yes. His council house.

  35. #35
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Chris Froome awarded 2011 Vuelta a Espana as Juan Jose Cobo stripped of title

    "It retrospectively makes him Britain's first Grand Tour winner - Sir Bradley Wiggins had held the honour after his 2012 Tour de France victory."

    Cycling.

  36. #36
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    Can't wait until they all get stripped of everything and I win all the awards retrospectively for breaking my own personal best back when I used to cycle to work. Drug free.

  37. #37
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Or they just go "fuck it" and let them all take what they want and make it a proper freakshow.

    You never know, that might even make it worth watching.

  38. #38
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    Why is cycling, seemingly more than any other sport, absolutely full of drug cheats? Is the testing 8 years behind the dodgy doctor curve? Do they just not care?

    Or is it the other way around and drugs are just as rife everywhere else, but cycling are doing much much more to root it out?

  39. #39
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    It's both.

    Cycling, historically, as a sport lends itself to chemical assistance (first booze, then amphetamines, then more modern PEDs). It is ridiculously physically demanding, so any 'marginal gains' are amplified by the intensity and duration of the events - both in terms of benefits from training and one off on the day hits (Landis, the greatest single ride of all time). It's heartland has, historically, been in nations where cheating is pretty much par for the course in everything, no offence Beneluxers. I do think they now do a lot more than most sports to try and get on top of it, but the range of things to try and cover is probably insurmountable - and the range of what is and what isn't allowed is far from simple. Spikey would probably be stripped of his titles for having taken some sudafed before riding to work one day. The biological passport is quite a good idea, I think. I don't believe Sky, as they were, were systematically cheating in the way teams did in the 1990/2000s, but they were systematically gaining advantages through legally abusive practices (TUEs etc).

  40. #40
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Spikey being outed as a cheat and a disgrace before he's even been awarded his titles.

    Fuck's sake.

  41. #41
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    Atleast I'm up there with the best of them.

  42. #42
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yevrah View Post
    Why is cycling, seemingly more than any other sport, absolutely full of drug cheats? Is the testing 8 years behind the dodgy doctor curve? Do they just not care?

    Or is it the other way around and drugs are just as rife everywhere else, but cycling are doing much much more to root it out?


    I would guess it's that cycling is almost purely a test of physical endurance/strength/speed etc. so you stand to gain a lot more from drugs than you can in sports which rely equally (or more) on tactics or technique.

    You could give Marouanne Fellaini steroids til his nuts were the size of raisins but still won't be Cristiano Ronaldo.

  43. #43
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    Oh and the idea of cheating with asthma inhalers is still nonsense.

  44. #44
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomlegend View Post
    You could give Marouanne Fellaini steroids til his nuts were the size of raisins but still won't be Cristiano Ronaldo.
    Why would he want to lessen his ability anyway?

  45. #45
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    Ah sorry, got the names the wrong way round.


  46. #46
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yevrah View Post
    Why is cycling, seemingly more than any other sport, absolutely full of drug cheats? Is the testing 8 years behind the dodgy doctor curve? Do they just not care?

    Or is it the other way around and drugs are just as rife everywhere else, but cycling are doing much much more to root it out?
    I'd say that it is the latter.

    Endurance athletes will benefit more from it, so cycling is a prime candidate, but there is no way that people running the marathon, for example, are not as likely to cheat. As for 'technique' sports like football, it might be less beneficial, but knowing the state of affairs, does anyone really think that half of those players/teams/owners/associations are not looking for any advantage they can get?

  47. #47
    Bookie Sir Andy Mahowry's Avatar
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    Can we use the 'fund' to get Pepe on the gear?

    Tour de France winner 2020.

  48. #48
    Administrator SvN's Avatar
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    About £440 in the kitty at the moment. What will that get us?

  49. #49
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    A decent course of roids and some Lemsip.

  50. #50
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    I'm in.

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