The yankee mass shootings thread

[SvN]

The prevalence of guns is surely largely responsible for the large number of people killed by the police. Every time they pull someone over, they're aware that the person could conceivably put a gun in their face out of nowhere, which means that they're constantly on edge. Any sudden movements and they've grabbed their gun and shot 5 bullets before they've even thought about it.

I remember watching a video about a year ago about a guy (black, obviously) who was at a petrol station when the police asked him for his license. He reached into his car to get it and the policeman fired about 5-7 shots at him out of nowhere, despite the guy shouting that he's just getting his license. I don't think the guy suffered serious injuries, but I don't think the police officer approached the situation with the intent to shoot the guy. He was just in fear for his own life and overreacted quite ridiculously.

Edit: Here it is:



At least one shot fired while he had his hands in the air.

[Bartholomert]

I don't see how dealers verses recreational users affects those numbers? I'm open to an explanation though.

As for the rest, I'm going to have to see the numbers before I take your word on the details. I believe the first two points you made, but I'd like to see the precise wording on "committing the crime" as opposed to "number of police interactions". As well as the racial spread on crimes verses arrests, like the numbers above.

I'd really like to see racial disparity on actually committing the crime, as opposed to being charged for it, for a range of crimes. Like the figures above. Because that's where I'd suspect the real problem is. Those numbers above are undeniably a problem, whatever their cause happens to be.

I appreciate your open mindedness on both issues, I will make a more detailed post after work on the latter.

In general, police resources are not committed to arresting recreational users with small amounts of marijuana in their possession, instead it is directed at catching larger volume violent distributors, especially those also involved in gangs / organized crime. White and black people may use marijuana at comparable rates, but, due to whatever number of factors, AA's are more often within the 'targeted' violent distributor category. As a consequence, AA's are arrested at higher rates for possession.

[Bartholomert]

Another problem that seems to occur in the US system is that police get an easier run through the justice system when charges are brought. Police officers have built-in protections within the system, and the conviction rate is known to be particularly low even when that is taken into consideration.

To be honest, I think it should go the other way. If you are in a position of authority and you abuse that position, you should face harsher consequences. Not only have you committed a crime, but you've done it from a position of power which is required for society to function. Orderly society needs us to trust police to act appropriately, and eroding that trust has to be treated as a serious issue.

Then police officers would simply not do their job. See the "Ferguson Effect"; it's already happening.

[Bernanke]

To be honest, I think it should go the other way. If you are in a position of authority and you abuse that position, you should face harsher consequences. Not only have you committed a crime, but you've done it from a position of power which is required for society to function. Orderly society needs us to trust police to act appropriately, and eroding that trust has to be treated as a serious issue.

Agreed.

Pay them more, train them better, punish them more harshly.

[Bartholomert]

Agreed.

Pay them more, train them better, punish them more harshly.

With what money; America has $20 trilion in debt? You willing to divert funds from welfare?

[Bernanke]

With what money; America has $20 trilion in debt? You willing to divert funds from welfare?

Some of the money that bought the military equipment they stroll around in could be put to better use.

[Bartholomert]

Some of the money that bought the military equipment they stroll around in could be put to better use.

All of that 'military equipment' is donated from the military once their use becomes obsolete, they don't really 'cost' the police departments anything.

[ItalAussie]

Militarization of the police really seems like part of the problem of eroding trust, not part of the solution.

I'm not suggesting that police should be unarmed, but there's no reason for police to have vehicles like this:



It fosters an image of enmity and separation, rather than being a key part of society. Seeing that rolling down the street induces fear rather than solidarity.

[ItalAussie]

Then police officers would simply not do their job. See the "Ferguson Effect"; it's already happening.

It should be treated as a respected calling. People joining the military are told they understand the risks when they signed up. The same should be true of police officers. The military are held to a much higher standard. If police want to militarize, they should have to take on the associated responsibility as well.

It's like when those pictures were shown of police using military weapons and equipment, and a bunch of military officers wrote articles pointing out that they were doing it entirely wrong, and would be sanctioned if they did things like pointing their guns while moving, or aiming at targets they weren't prepared to shoot at that moment.

If they want military equipment, they should require military training and military consequences. Without those, it's people playing army with real guns.

[GS]

If you want to see what happens when certain sections of the community lose trust in the impartiality of the police, look no further than here.

The police cannot go about shooting people, predominantly black people, for no justifiable reason.

[Bartholomert]

It should be treated as a respected calling. People joining the military are told they understand the risks when they signed up. The same should be true of police officers. The military are held to a much higher standard. If police want to militarize, they should have to take on the associated responsibility as well.

It's like when those pictures were shown of police using military weapons and equipment, and a bunch of military officers wrote articles pointing out that they were doing it entirely wrong, and would be sanctioned if they did things like pointing their guns while moving, or aiming at targets they weren't prepared to shoot at that moment.

If they want military equipment, they should require military training and military consequences. Without those, it's people playing army with real guns.

I actually agree with you about the militarization of local police departments; I'm more of a Ron Paul / constitutionalist guy when it comes to law enforcement powers.

From a legal perspective however, I think you are sorely sorely mistaken about the wisdom of lowering the burden of proof required to hold cops legally responsible for certain actions. That would be literally insane and inevitably lead to an immense waste of resources dedicated to defending cops sued by literally everyone ever handled in a somewhat rough fashion. Believe it or not the vast vast majority of cop interactions are very professional and result in no harm to any party.

[Bartholomert]

If you want to see what happens when certain sections of the community lose trust in the impartiality of the police, look no further than here.

The police cannot go about shooting people, predominantly black people, for no justifiable reason.

This. Isn't. Happenning. Holy fucking shit.

[GS]

This. Isn't. Happenning. Holy fucking shit.

Yes, it is. They reach for a driving licence, and they're shot. That's not a justifiable reason, because the police officer's life isn't in danger. He may be "on edge", but that's part of being in the police. If they can't control the situation, there are some very, very serious questions that need to be asked about the level of training and the type of individual the police force are recruiting.

[Lewis]

I'm sure plenty of white people are getting wasted for lol reasons by the useless police. Has anyone written a proper article about that? Is there room for an 'Actually, the coppers are just shit' narrative', or would conservatives lose it and start calling you coal burner?

[Bernanke]

I'm sure plenty of white people are getting wasted for lol reasons by the useless police. Has anyone written a proper article about that? Is there room for an 'Actually, the coppers are just shit' narrative', or would conservatives lose it and start calling you coal burner?

The one that springs to mind is this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_James_Boyd

He had a knife, but non-lethal force should really have been possible if you watch the video from the shooting.

[Bartholomert]

Yes, it is. They reach for a driving licence, and they're shot. That's not a justifiable reason, because the police officer's life isn't in danger. He may be "on edge", but that's part of being in the police. If they can't control the situation, there are some very, very serious questions that need to be asked about the level of training and the type of individual the police force are recruiting.

You are generalizing all police officers on the basis of one freak incident for which he will serve jail time (if that is in fact what happened). Moreover, RACE IS NOT A FACTOR BASED ON STATISTICS.

Please educate yourself:

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5...-aaron-bandler

"Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black. The majority of these victims had a gun or "were armed or otherwise threatening the officer with potentially lethal force," according to MacDonald in a speech at Hillsdale College.

Some may argue that these statistics are evidence of racist treatment toward blacks, since whites consist of 62 percent of the population and blacks make up 12 percent of the population. But as MacDonald writes in The Wall Street Journal, 2009 statistics from the Bureau of Justice Statistics reveal that blacks were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the 75 biggest counties in the country, despite only comprising roughly 15 percent of the population in these counties.

"Such a concentration of criminal violence in minority communities means that officers will be disproportionately confronting armed and often resisting suspects in those communities, raising officers’ own risk of using lethal force," writes MacDonald.

MacDonald also pointed out in her Hillsdale speech that blacks "commit 75 percent of all shootings, 70 percent of all robberies, and 66 percent of all violent crime" in New York City, even though they consist of 23 percent of the city's population.

"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods."

[phonics]

There's been some interesting analysis of the shooter by military/SWAT people and they say he's very well trained when it comes to firing/firing while moving/tactical positioning and assuming from that that it's disaffected veterans doing the attack.

This is a clear instance of Fire Team Terrorism. We’ve had a few prior events like this, both successful and thwarted.

• D.C. Sniper – lots of single deaths, but a two man team
• Hutaree militia – double tap bombing & fire team attack averted
• San Bernardino – husband/wife team

There is no information yet, but I’m going to speculate this is something I’ve long anticipated – an attack by disaffected U.S. veterans.
We had thirty eight days of ground combat during Desert Storm, which brought us the Oklahoma City bombing and the D.C. Sniper. Our war in Afghanistan and Bush’s adventure in Iraq have produced men who’ve spent thirty eight months in hardcore urban combat or long distance counter-insurgency.
The worst decision we made was the discharge of over 30,000 veterans using PDO (personality disorder) discharges to avoid giving them benefits. The vast majority of these men have closed head brain injuries due to IEDs. They’ve given up their health and well being for this country, and we abandoned them.
The particulars will change over time, but attacks like this are going to keep happening, because we laid the groundwork for them.

https://nealrauhauser.wordpress.com/...ror-in-dallas/

and this guy https://twitter.com/MalcolmNance

[GS]

Lots of words

You need to learn from the Northern Irish example. Nobody cared when the police did their job correctly - that's what they're paid for, and what they're expected to do.

People cared when the police were perceived as not doing their job correctly and the perception, real or otherwise, was that they were not wholly impartial where Catholic communities were concerned. The perception in America is that there is a serious problem with how the police interact with the black community. When that view becomes widespread, trust in the police force steadily erodes. You end up in incredibly unpleasant territory whereby the police, who should be pillars of a secure and safe living environment, are treated with suspicion and distrust, where every decision and the motive behind it is questioned. Race is clearly a factor, because it's the black victims who are getting high profile media coverage and fuelling this sense of injustice.

You can twist yourself into intellectual knots to deny it if you want to, but until such time as everybody accepts it's happening and takes the necessary steps to address it it's only going to get worse. The matter is, of course, exacerbated considerably by the ready availability of weaponry in America.

[John]

The majority of these victims had a gun or "were armed or otherwise threatening the officer with potentially lethal force," according to MacDonald in a speech at Hillsdale College.

This is the problem, not the racial disparity you keep coming back to.

If the majority were armed in some way then by definition some people were shot who weren't armed at all. Which is the precise scenario you keep telling us Is. Not. Happening.

[Pepe]

Isn't this a manifestation of the 'we need guns so that we can defend ourselves when the evil government comes to get us' lol argument? Mert and his gun nut crew should be proud. Law abiding citizens standing up to a regime they feel oppressed by.

[ItalAussie]

From a legal perspective however, I think you are sorely sorely mistaken about the wisdom of lowering the burden of proof required to hold cops legally responsible for certain actions. That would be literally insane and inevitably lead to an immense waste of resources dedicated to defending cops sued by literally everyone ever handled in a somewhat rough fashion. Believe it or not the vast vast majority of cop interactions are very professional and result in no harm to any party.

I don't want to lower the burden of proof. I'm a big believer in burden of proof. I don't, however, think that the burden of proof should be higher than normal either. It should be exactly the same as any other crime (which it currently isn't, due to special dispensation within the legal system put through by "tough on crime" politicians).

But any police officer who is found breaking the law in the course of their duty should be subject to particularly harsh sentencing, as social order depends on us trusting police officers not to abuse their authority. Their crime was not only a crime in itself, but also a contribution to the overall breakdown in public trust of the police as an institution. There should be a predisposition towards the harshest end of the punishment range in such cases.

[Bartholomert]

I don't want to lower the burden of proof. I'm a big believer in burden of proof. I don't, however, think that the burden of proof should be higher than normal either. It should be exactly the same as any other crime (which it currently isn't, due to special dispensation within the legal system put through by "tough on crime" politicians).

But any police officer who is found breaking the law in the course of their duty should be subject to particularly harsh sentencing, as social order depends on us trusting police officers not to abuse their authority. Their crime was not only a crime in itself, but also a contribution to the overall breakdown in public trust of the police as an institution. There should be a predisposition towards the harshest end of the punishment range in such cases.

Main difference between civilians and police officers is that the former aren't empowered with maintaining social order, detaining suspects, and physically subduing non-compliant individuals. Accordingly, they need greater legal protections (otherwise they would be guilty of assault, battery, unlawful imprisonment, etc. every time they took a suspect in custody) to be able to be able to execute their duties with confidence and absent delay.

[Bartholomert]

Isn't this a manifestation of the 'we need guns so that we can defend ourselves when the evil government comes to get us' lol argument? Mert and his gun nut crew should be proud. Law abiding citizens standing up to a regime they feel oppressed by.

Yes. Except the evil government wasn't trying to 'get' anyone.

[Pepe]

That's your take on things, they see it otherwise.

[Davgooner]

Pretty blatant from Mert, this.

What a cunt.

[Bartholomert]

That's your take on things, they see it otherwise.

Facts aren't subjective.

[ItalAussie]

Main difference between civilians and police officers is that the former aren't empowered with maintaining social order, detaining suspects, and physically subduing non-compliant individuals. Accordingly, they need greater legal protections (otherwise they would be guilty of assault, battery, unlawful imprisonment, etc. every time they took a suspect in custody) to be able to be able to execute their duties with confidence and absent delay.

I agree - police do sometimes need to perform acts that would otherwise be crimes. But that is a very serious responsibility, which is why it should be treated very harshly when abused.

Anyone who is granted special legal dispensation in the cause of doing their job should be punished severely if are found guilty of taking liberties with that dispensation.

[Disco]

Facts aren't subjective.

What colour would you say this dress was....

[Bernanke]

From the press conference: The dead shooter didn't kill himself, he was killed by a bomb detonation. That shooter said he was upset about BLM and wanted to kill white police officers. Acted alone.

Apparently they sort of did a drone strike on him with a bomb disposal robot.

[Bartholomert]

I agree - police do sometimes need to perform acts that would otherwise be crimes. But that is a very serious responsibility, which is why it should be treated very harshly when abused.

Anyone who is granted special legal dispensation in the cause of doing their job should be punished severely if are found guilty of taking liberties with that dispensation.

I could live with / would probably support higher legal burden combined with harsher penalties for abusing the responsibilities...

From the press conference: The dead shooter didn't kill himself, he was killed by a bomb detonation. That shooter said he was upset about BLM and wanted to kill white police officers. Acted alone.

Apparently they sort of did a drone strike on him with a bomb disposal robot.

Oh boy, source? If internet forums / up votes on comments on articles are anything to go by, things are going to get much more uglier and polarized...

[Pepe]

Not that any abuse has occurred of course, amirite?

[Bartholomert]

Not that any abuse has occurred of course, amirite?

I don't remember the Civil Rights Movement participants executing cops as part of their protests...

[Bartholomert]

All this shit is so sad, for real. On both sides. But you cannot abandon logic and reason...

[leedsrevolution]

Talking to mert about gun law is as productive as talking to Harold about immigration. Or talking to GS about religion. Waste of time.

[Bartholomert]

Dallas PD latest update:

https://twitter.com/NBCNightlyNews/s...97195954286593

Apparently the shooter wanted to kill white cops and was upset at the latest shooting incidents. So there you go.

[Pepe]

All this shit is so sad, for real. On both sides. But you cannot abandon logic and reason...

[7om]

Race is clearly a factor, because it's the black victims who are getting high profile media coverage and fuelling this sense of injustice.

Which begs the question: why are the media not covering white cops killing white civilians when it is obviously happening? Never underestimate the media to keep pumping out the narrative and fueling these fires. Especially over here, it's a free for all with their news coverage.

[bruhnaldo]

I'm amazed that Mert doesn't have another forum where people actually care about his shit opinions.

[Bartholomert]

I'm amazed that Mert doesn't have another forum where people actually care about his shit opinions.

I do, but I feel it's my duty to expose you close minded liberals to alternative perspectives

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's the opposite over here, media coverage-wise. You have to be young, white and preferably physically attractive before your murder is widely reported in the media.

[bruhnaldo]

I do, but I feel it's my duty to expose you close minded liberals to alternative perspectives

Ya I'm nothing close to a liberal, but watching some barely educated child masquerade as an intellectual.. well.

I mean as if it's not painfully obvious you've been turned away by those more inclined in every other facet of life.. setting up shop on THE THIRD HALF! to bestow said "knowledge".

Now, I'd imagine, you'd thought if there's anywhere you could impress anonymous strangers and be considered an "expert".. it's a forum full of people who don't live in or give a flying fuck about America on the topic of America... on the contrary.

Wasting everyone's time with ridiculous hubris and conjecture just doesn't pass as intelligent thought. The only "exposing" been done is that of yourself, a fool to yet another set of people in your life, anonymous or not.

[Bartholomert]

Ya I'm nothing close to a liberal, but watching some barely educated child masquerade as an intellectual.. well.

I mean as if it's not painfully obvious you've been turned away by those more inclined in every other facet of life.. setting up shop on THE THIRD HALF! to bestow said "knowledge".

Now, I'd imagine, you'd thought if there's anywhere you could impress anonymous strangers and be considered an "expert".. it's a forum full of people who don't live in or give a flying fuck about America on the topic of America... on the contrary.

Wasting everyone's time with ridiculous hubris and conjecture just doesn't pass as intelligent thought. The only "exposing" been done is that of yourself, a fool to yet another set of people in your life, anonymous or not.

Barely educated? Eh? Do you even know my background?

My other forum is almost entirely Americans. Socially I do pretty well for myself. Ad hominem attacks are the purview of the insecure.

[bruhnaldo]

Here let me break it down for you

"You're an annoying little cunt that has never brought anything of substance to any discussion on this website and should probably just shut the fuck up."

[Bartholomert]

Here let me break it down for you

"You're an annoying little cunt that has never brought anything of substance to any discussion on this website and should probably just shut the fuck up."

Yes let's dismiss and silence mainstream Second Amendment / pro-Police arguments held by large portions of the US population because some people disagree with them. Sounds about on par with your average intolerant liberal.

Keep sucking up to the Europeans on the board, maybe with enough of their approval you will manage to successfully distinguish yourself as a 'different sophisticated American' !

[7om]

AKA beta cuck pussies?

[John]

It always makes me lol when Mert talks about 'silencing' things, as though someone here telling him to shut up and fuck off in some way damages the wider discourse. It's like when Harold bleats about free speech from behind a proxy or that time Chinny wanted to go to 'a higher power' to challenge an infraction.

[Kikó]

I would say I disagree with the shouting down of mert. Even if Mert only posts here about his views, so what? If we all thought the same, it would be worse than reading MJ's posts.

[Lewis]

I wonder how much the of the identity politics bullshit contributes to the general climate of mistrust. I would be inclined to say that it doesn't, but if Brexit killed that MP then the logic would follow that any and all attempts to divide people along cultural lines will foster this sort of atmosphere.

[Magic]

I would say I disagree with the shouting down of mert. Even if Mert only posts here about his views, so what? If we all thought the same, it would be worse than reading MJ's posts.

Bitch not even tagging before bagging.

[Ian]

close minded

This might hold more (read: any) weight if you yourself ever respected a position you don't personally hold and didn't bleat catchphrases at those who do.

This whole thing is incredibly sad and just leaves me feeling that the police aren't adequately prepared for these situations. Even if people are insistent that there's systematic prejudice the fact that those people bring it up out of hand in every one of these events isn't much better. Not every policeman who shoots a black guy when it could have been avoided is a racist murderer any more than every black guy with a gun and a prior is a threat to an arresting officer.

If a guy gets shot reaching for a license he's just been asked to produce there are bigger issues there regarding the policeman's readiness to do the job.

Edit: all that wasn't aimed at you, mert. In terms of the sad state of the escalation of this one I'm with you.