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Thread: Unis, Free Specech etc.

  1. #101
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QE Harold Flair View Post
    That's why men are vastly over-represented in Nobel prizes - men are simply more intelligent at the higher levels.
    Christ. They weren't even allowed to vote in certain countries till the 70s but you think they'll hand out Nobel Prizes to them.

  2. #102
    Romulus Augustulus ItalAussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QE Harold Flair View Post
    I was just going on what RM said, after he said you can't read most of the links you posted. When I asked the nursing question, it was an 'on average' question, because I've no doubt that men inclined to go into nursing are just as good as women. But not many men do go into nursing, because most men are not cut out for it. That's the point. Same goes for the higher levels of most academic subjects. That's why men are vastly over-represented in Nobel prizes - men are simply more intelligent at the higher levels.
    You're making up your own conclusions regarding nursing. That's literally the exact opposite of scientific inquiry. Well done.

    As to the Nobels, that's not the reason for the apparent disparity at all. It's because until the last twenty years or so, academia (and particularly the sciences) were incredibly unbalanced (a point we've discussed and explained extensively in this thread). The number of high level accolades for female scientists is well-known to be consistent with the proportion of females active within high-level science at the time the work was performed. And, as that number has been equalizing in the last twenty years or so, you'd expect it to flow through to the Nobels in another twenty or so years. It takes time to filter through the academic ranks, from the bottom up - and the Nobel Prizes are the uppest echelon, and hence take the longest time to adjust.

  3. #103
    Senior Member simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QE Harold Flair View Post
    I was just going on what RM said, after he said you can't read most of the links you posted. When I asked the nursing question, it was an 'on average' question, because I've no doubt that men inclined to go into nursing are just as good as women. But not many men do go into nursing, because most men are not cut out for it. That's the point. Same goes for the higher levels of most academic subjects. That's why men are vastly over-represented in Nobel prizes - men are simply more intelligent at the higher levels.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItalAussie View Post
    No you can't. There are specific statistical methodologies to account for these factors. This is quantitative, data-driven research.
    Like what? Did you wear pink? Give me a break. This is vfery much a chicken and egg question - which came first? The 'conditioning' or simply that the person supposedly being conditioned just preferred those things?


    None of this is supported by actual academic literature. You keep insisting on old wives' conclusions that have been rejected by actual studies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Lynn, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Ulster
    Baroness Susan Greenfield is one of Britain's best-known female scientists; she's a professor of neurophysiology at the University of Oxford, a former director of the Royal Institution and an accomplished writer and broadcaster on scientific matters.
    So when she very publicly bemoans the lack of women reaching the higher echelons of the scientific establishment, people tend to sit up and take notice.
    In a newspaper article last month, she expressed her concern that only ten per cent of science professors in this country are women.

    Her comments struck a chord, attracting a host of comments agreeing that women scientists were generally getting a raw deal.
    This raises an important and controversial question. Is there really a glass ceiling holding back the careers of talented female scientists? Have decades of anti-sexual discrimination legislation really counted for nothing in the laboratories of Britain?

    Or might there be another explanation for why we find such a marked shortage of women, not just in the highest levels of science but in big business, the professions, and politics, too?
    It is my contention - based on a lifetime of academic research - that there is an explanation and I advance it all too aware of the howls of feminist outrage I am about to unleash.

    So, here goes: one of the main reasons why there are not more female science professors or chief executives or Cabinet ministers is that, on average, men are more intelligent than women.
    Nor do the shocks to the noisy advocates of equal opportunities stop there, I'm afraid.

    For not only is the average man more intelligent than the average woman but also a clear and rather startling imbalance emerges between the sexes at the high levels of intelligence that the most demanding jobs require.

    For instance, at the near-genius level (an IQ of 145), brilliant men outnumber brilliant women by 8 to one. That's statistics, not sexism.
    In this context, Professor Greenfield's indignation that only one in ten science professors is female doesn't seem all that bad. It also goes some way to explaining why, in almost 110 years of Nobel Prize history, only two women have ever won the Prize for physics, only four have won the Prize for chemistry and why no women at all have ever won the coveted Fields Medal for mathematics in eight decades of trying.
    In recent years, the forces of political correctness have made the reporting of this sort of statistic virtually impossible.
    Yet as a psychologist who has dedicated his career to the study of intelligence - and, in particular, to how it differs between the sexes - I can tell you that in my academic circles these IQ figures are barely disputed.
    Ever since the Frenchman Alfred Binet devised the first intelligence test in 1905, study after study has confirmed the same result. When it comes to IQ, men and women - at least once they've gained adulthood - simply are not equal.
    Boys and girls may start out with the same IQ but by 16 or so boys are starting to inch ahead. The ever-growing success of girls at GCSE, A-level and now at university would seem to refute this - but the blame lies with our exam system, with its emphasis on coursework, which rewards diligence more than it does intelligence.
    The undeniable, easily measurable fact remains that, by the time both sexes reach 21, men, on average, score five IQ points higher than women.
    Before discussing how and why this might be, I ought to explain what psychologists mean by intelligence. It's made up of a range of cognitive abilities that include reasoning, problem-solving, spatial ability, general knowledge and memory.

    In all of these, men outperform women - although women hold their own when it comes to verbal reasoning and have a definite edge in foreign language skills and spelling.
    We must look to the field of evolutionary psychology for an explanation of why men have emerged as the more intelligent sex.
    As the hunter part of a hunter-gatherer society, men were faced with complex, life-threatening problems that needed solving on a daily basis. For example, how to kill that elusive deer?
    The hunters that used all their mental capabilities to come up with the answers, successfully killing animals day after day, were clearly the most intelligent.
    They were the high-status males of their day and - provocative as it is to say so - must have possessed far sharper minds than those of women engaged in the relatively simple tasks of gathering berries and raising children.


    These high-status males would also have been the most eligible mates, and it would be their genes - chief among which would be those controlling male brain size - that would be passed on to the next generation.
    The result is that men today still have physically bigger brains than women, even after adjustments for their different-body size. Might this underpin the five-point difference in IQ between the sexes?
    Of course, in normal daily life, there's not much real difference between a man with an IQ of 105 and a woman with an IQ of
    100. The real difference only emerges as we rise up the IQ scale to the sort of level that the really top jobs require and as we drop lower down the scale - because men, as it turns out, have a much wider range of intelligence than women.
    As a result, there are not only far more men with high IQs than there are women, but there are also, as I'm sure any woman would tell you, far more stupid men around than there are stupid women.
    There is, as yet, no simple or, indeed, totally convincing explanation as to why this is, but while the abundance of stupid men has always caused social problems, it is the relative abundance of highly intelligent men that has caused problems for several generations of emancipated, liberated, ambitious women.

    As a result, when these women get close to the top, they are simply out-numbered by highly intelligent and often ruthlessly ambitious men.
    As our hunter-gatherer example has already suggested, men and women have also evolved different kinds of intelligence.
    The demands of hunting - devising tactics and strategies, anticipating likely outcomes - favoured the development of reasoning, together with mathematical and spatial abilities, which is why, thousands of years later, men continue to be overrepresented in fields such as maths and physics.
    However, when it comes to verbal intelligence, women match men because, in our hunter-gatherer past, women needed verbal abilities to negotiate their relationships with both men and women and to teach and socialise their children.
    This explains why they are every bit as successful as men at writing novels, say, or even newspaper columns. Their superior foreign language skills explain why if you walk into a university language lecture theatre, you won't find many men.

    But there's another reason why, at the very highest and most demanding of levels in society, men have a natural advantage - and it's one we've seen in countless natural history TV documentaries.
    Take, for example, the case of rutting stags or fighting chimps and you get the generally aggressive idea. Thanks to high levels of the male sex hormone testosterone, men are far more competitive and motivated for success than women.
    For a man - at least as far as his hormone system is concerned - succeeding, competing and beating his rivals is very much still a matter of life and death.
    Consequently, ambitious, high-achieving men typically work harder, compete more aggressively and become totally immersed in their careers, while even the most high-achieving women will often admit to finding themselves distracted by their genetically preconditioned aptitude for nurture and support.
    For them, it is often a question of what to get for supper, or whether the children have got clean shirts for school. These are small distractions, admittedly, but at the very highest level they have an effect.
    As an academic, it's my job to tell the truth, to explain the scientific evidence before us, irrespective of how unfashionable my conclusions are.
    Big ideas such as Galileo's theory that Earth revolved around the Sun, rather than vice versa, or Darwin's theory of evolution, met with vociferous opposition when first advanced.
    And, certainly, the ideas I've laid out here have already got some highly respected people into very serious trouble.


    In 2005, the distinguished economist Lawrence Summers was forced to resign as President of Harvard University after expressing the view, at a seminar on diversity in the academic workplace, that in some fields the innate cognitive differences between the sexes might make the search for a perfect 50:50 gender balance impossible.
    He didn't accept that the lack of women at senior level was all due to glass ceilings, anti-social hours or lack of opportunity and encouragement.

    Instead, he went with what the science is clearly telling us - that at the really top level in maths and science, when we're not dealing with average intelligence but near genius, there are simply more men around who can do the job.
    For that simple statement of truth, he was eventually forced out of his post.I take some comfort from the fact that Lawrence Summers' hormonally-driven male competitive instincts kicked in and he has now bounced back to become a senior economic adviser to President Obama.
    But what if he and I are right - as I am 100 per cent convinced we are? If men are innately better at certain subjects than women, then why should society struggle so hard - and so expensively - to try to engineer a perfect balance between the sexes?
    By all means, take steps to ensure that boys and girls get the same opportunities in education, but let's also accept that those same opportunities will not produce the same outcomes. Men will always outnumber women in certain fields and vice versa.
    My argument isn't based on crude chauvinist doctrine (although I'm quite sure my opponents will disagree) but on decades of research, relatively simple statistics and an understanding of the law of averages.
    Of course, just because men, on average, are more intelligent then women, doesn't mean there are no individually brilliant women around.
    If I'm right, it doesn't mean there will be no female professors of physics; it just means we should accept that there will be fewer of them. Nor does it mean that a woman will never win the Fields Medal for mathematics; it just means that we live in a world where such an event is very, very unlikely.
    I realise my views are unfashionable, just as I realise the juggernaut of sexual equality and political correctness will take an awful lot of stopping.
    But I say to the social engineers who dream up ever-more-ingenious ways of getting more women into top positions; don't be surprised if you find your nobly motivated ambitions foundering on the immovable rock of human nature.

  5. #105
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    Don't bother, Ital.

  6. #106
    Romulus Augustulus ItalAussie's Avatar
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    The corpus of scientific literature is remarkably consistent on its conclusions. I'll trust that over a Daily Mail article like the one you posted here.

    The fact that you don't like it is pretty irrelevant, Harold; it's not a controversial topic, and nobody's actually arguing over it in real life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Christ. They weren't even allowed to vote in certain countries till the 70s but you think they'll hand out Nobel Prizes to them.
    Women have had the same rights as men for 40 years. I'd say that enough time for some to have come through. I prefer the actual facts, which show that men are much more represented at the very highest levels of intellgence. Nothing particularly controversial about mere facts, I wouldn't have thought.

  8. #108
    DEATH TO THE WEIRD Raoul Duke's Avatar
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    I wish you'd just ban the gimp. Does nothing but turn this place into the Daily Mail-lite, brought to you in conjunction with Misunderstanding Information For Dummies.

    Nearly every thread is clogged up with this bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItalAussie View Post
    The corpus of scientific literature is remarkably consistent on its conclusions. The fact that you don't like it is pretty irrelevant, Harold; it's not a controversial topic, and nobody's actually arguing over it in real life.
    Prove me wrong, then. Are men vastly over-represented on the genius levels of I.Q or not? There's probably an evolutionary reason for this - much in the same way there is for women being the more caring and better communicators, in general. It's nothing to be scared of - there are differences and that's okay. Try not to get emotional about facts.

  10. #110
    Romulus Augustulus ItalAussie's Avatar
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    Also, using brain size as a measure of anything?

    Brain size is no measure of cognitive faculty. If they were, then there's a dozen animals that would have greater cognitive ability than humans. Brain size in mammals tends to increase linearly with respect to average individual volume, and this is born out in humans.

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    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Oof. Tobias. Mate.

  12. #112
    Romulus Augustulus ItalAussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QE Harold Flair View Post
    Prove me wrong, then. Are men vastly over-represented on the genius levels of I.Q or not? There's probably an evolutionary reason for this - much in the same way there is for women being the more caring and better communicators, in general. It's nothing to be scared of - there are differences and that's okay. Try not to get emotional about facts.
    Knowing about this stuff is literally my job. Do you want me to post a bunch more studies like above? I've spent actual time in my actual job finding dozens and dozens. Or would you prefer to stick with the Daily Mail?

    What you're doing here is the exact opposite of science. You're replacing a widespread survey of existing studies within respected academic sources with cherry-picked articles from non-academic sources that support your entirely unscientific hunches. You're literally doing the opposite of science.

  13. #113
    Just Luca, but still a DJ Luca's Avatar
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    This is a completely independent point, but all of this "tending towards significance" nonsense you see in papers really is frustrating; almost as infuriating as the obvious post-hoc p-hacking that goes on. If p = 0.085 is tending towards significance, why is p = 0.049 never tending towards insignificance?

    Oh, Ital (and Lewis): what do you think about the #icanhazpdf movement, and the wider issue of journal pricing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItalAussie View Post
    Also, using brain size as a measure of anything?
    He didn't. He said males have bigger brains but this is not relevant to intelligence. Read it properly.

    Brain size is no measure of cognitive faculty. If they were, then there's a dozen animals that would have greater cognitive ability than humans. Brain size in mammals tends to increase linearly with respect to average individual volume, and this is born out in humans.[/QUOTE]

    Yet as a psychologist who has dedicated his career to the study of intelligence - and, in particular, to how it differs between the sexes - I can tell you that in my academic circles these IQ figures are barely disputed.
    He just hasn't met you, yet. Not that you are in his field, of course.

  15. #115
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
    I wish you'd just ban the gimp. Does nothing but turn this place into the Daily Mail-lite, brought to you in conjunction with Misunderstanding Information For Dummies.

    Nearly every thread is clogged up with this bullshit.
    Done. Gave up admin rights to do it and all. Emoji crossfingers it sticks.

  16. #116
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    The journals that cover my subject[s] are mostly shit, so I don't suppose they could make money any other way.

  17. #117
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    #freethebish

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Done. Gave up admin rights to do it and all. Emoji crossfingers it sticks.
    Yea, good luck with that.

  19. #119
    Romulus Augustulus ItalAussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QE Harold Flair View Post
    He just hasn't met you, yet. Not that you are in his field, of course.
    IQ tests are well-known to experience the same demographic issues (the colloquial "stereotype threat" described in the papers above), and that the differences - which do exist, because of such factors - become statistically insignificant once you apply (well-understood) statistical techniques to allow for the effects of social demographic factors.

    I'm just repeating myself here, so I'm just going to point out again that if you do any kind of large-scale literature survey within respected academic sources, you'll find it is commonly agreed that there is no evidence for intrinsic differences in "intelligence" (by which we'll use IQ, even though it's not much of a measure), as well as scientific and mathematical aptitude (more precise, and therefore more useful, quantities). This is born out experimentally in that efforts to adjust the effect of social influences on demographic have produced exactly the results that these conclusions would predict: mitigating social barriers has led to the numbers evening out over the last two decades.

    If you're not interested in reading the corpus of research literature, and you continue to ignore that the real-life outcomes are consistent with the conclusions, then this is as far as the conversation can usefully go. But that's the lay of the scientific land, at any rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca View Post
    This is a completely independent point, but all of this "tending towards significance" nonsense you see in papers really is frustrating; almost as infuriating as the obvious post-hoc p-hacking that goes on. If p = 0.085 is tending towards significance, why is p = 0.049 never tending towards insignificance?

    Oh, Ital (and Lewis): what do you think about the #icanhazpdf movement, and the wider issue of journal pricing?
    I'm pretty sure you're right that "tending towards significance" is nonsense. I can't think of a statistical methodology where that's a sensible concept.

    Journal pricing is a fascinating topic. Academic publishing is one of the most profitable industries in the world. I'm pretty sure that Elsevier and Springer are both in the top five major corporations globally for profit margins. Which makes sense - we give them articles for free, review them for free, supply editors for free, and then pay to buy the journal. Short of type-setting, I'm a little unclear as to what the journals actually do.


    EDIT: Maaaaaaybe you could tend towards significance in time series analysis, if you're finding consistent results over time stepping, then taking more time steps could narrow your error range. But in that case, you'd just take enough time steps to get significance, surely. Unless it's a particularly difficult experimental setup or something. Still, it's far from ideal.

  20. #120
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    I was reading an article the other day that I remembered reading as a chapter in an essay collection (he had re-written it a bit to be fair), which was itself derived from a book the geezer wrote. So there you go. They allow people to inflate their list of publications.

  21. #121
    Just Luca, but still a DJ Luca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItalAussie View Post
    I'm pretty sure you're right that "tending towards significance" is nonsense. I can't think of a statistical methodology where that's a sensible concept.
    The idea of it (and it has become more pervasive over time, at least in the fields I'm in) just doesn't make sense. Given that the boundaries themselves (0.05/0.01/etc.) aren't strictly defined (read: completely arbitrary, and often selected to fit the results), the areas around them are more or less meaningless. I can't decide whether it's harmless optimism bias or something more sinister.

    Statistical methodology in academic articles really is a huge sore spot; so many researchers are just chasing a p-value without a wider sense of the statistical validity behind what they're doing. I understand that for most, this comes with the territory; they study financial economics/psychology/medicine, and know stats from 1/2 graduate level intro courses and whatever they've picked up from reviewing literature. It would probably not be a bad idea to have an actual, dyed-in-the-flesh statistician on every quantitative journal's peer review board, regardless of discipline (obviously not for things that you/Lewis do, but where it's sensible).

    Journal pricing is a fascinating topic. Academic publishing is one of the most profitable industries in the world. I'm pretty sure that Elsevier and Springer are both in the top five major corporations globally for profit margins. Which makes sense - we give them articles for free, review them for free, supply editors for free, and then pay to buy the journal. Short of type-setting, I'm a little unclear as to what the journals actually do.
    Springer is a private company, but a cursory search on Elsevier puts their operating margin at 30%, which is 10-15% more than comparable peers. And that's for the whole RELX group, which includes their (probably lower-margin) magazine operations. So yeah, they're making a killing.

  22. #122
    Romulus Augustulus ItalAussie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca View Post
    Springer is a private company, but a cursory search on Elsevier puts their operating margin at 30%, which is 10-15% more than comparable peers. And that's for the whole RELX group, which includes their (probably lower-margin) magazine operations. So yeah, they're making a killing.
    If it's not Springer, then it's someone else. Can't remember which one though. They're all basically coining money.

    And yeah. Ideally, every lab in every field would have a duty statistician to come in and sort out the data analysis with an understanding a little bit beyond "p < 0.05 good, p > 0.05 bad".


    EDIT: Here's a cut from an article a few years back:
    In an article that many of you will now have seen, Heather Morrison demonstrated the enormous profits of STM (Scientific, Technical and Medical) scholarly publishers. The figures are taken from her in-progress dissertation which in turn cites an article in The Economist. It all checks out. I emphasise this because I found the figures so hard to believe. Here they are again: profits as a percentage of revenue for commercial STM publishers in 2010 or early 2011:

    Elsevier: Ł724m on revenue of Ł2b — 36%
    Springer‘s Science+Business Media: Ł294m on revenue of Ł866m — 33.9%
    John Wiley & Sons: $106m on revenue of $253m — 42%
    Academic division of Informa plc: Ł47m on revenue of Ł145m — 32.4%

  23. #123
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    Yoga class cancelled due to 'cultural appropriation'

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6744426.html

    I don't even know where to start

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    Senior Member Boydy's Avatar
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    I saw that yesterday. It's just ridiculous.

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    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    The person who made that complaint must be trolling.

  26. #126
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    That is excellent.

    Yoga is shit anyways. Wanker magnet.

  27. #127
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    This was good the other day. It's no wonder so many of these cunts have depression and anxiety problems when literally every human [inter]action is a minefield.

  28. #128
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    When I use the term 'wanker', am I appropriating your culture? Should I stop?

  29. #129
    Senior Member Boydy's Avatar
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    I saw that 'foodie' (that word is the mark of a cunt) one the other day too. The title was so fucking ridiculous I didn't read the article.

  30. #130
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...t-5-complaints

    The 'open letter' is quite the read.

  31. #131
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Richard Dawkins likes giving it to the 'Safe Space' wankers. He should really take up that particular crusade (arf) full-time now nobody cares about atheism.

  32. #132
    Just Luca, but still a DJ Luca's Avatar
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    That foodie thing is the most self-absorbed thing I've ever read. Absolutely odious.

  33. #133
    Senior Member Davgooner's Avatar
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    Why the fuck did you write it then?

  34. #134
    Senior Member Cord's Avatar
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    I had some American sort ring up to ask me if the university I work for has a 'queer safe space' over the summer. At the time my answer of 'erm, dunno' might have come across as the dribblings of an uninterested incompetent, but it's become clear that it was instead a brilliant strategic career saving move by one of the finest minds of his generation. A mind that will soon be in charge once everyone else who understands their job has been fired for venturing an opinion in the presence of students.

  35. #135
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    That is excellent.

    Yoga is shit anyways. Wanker magnet.
    Yoga is great. It is also, unfortunately, a wanker magnet. So it goes.

  36. #136
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    'Foodie' might be the worst of all the wanky post internet age terms we've been subjected to.

    It physically makes my skin crawl when I hear it.

  37. #137
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    Pretty sure "Foodies" - including the self-applied title - were around long before the internet.

  38. #138
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Whether it pre-dated the internet or not, it's definitely had a reconnaissance.

    https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=foody

    I agree that it makes my skin crawl in a way that few other words do.

  39. #139
    Just Luca, but still a DJ Luca's Avatar
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    I don't really mind the word "foodie" so much (it certainly doesn't make my skin crawl), but getting all pissy about cultural appropriation because I like a bit of pho but am not John Arne's neighbour is absurd.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    Whether it pre-dated the internet or not, it's definitely had a reconnaissance.
    My go-to image for it would still definitely be the Frasier Crane / Miles from Sideways sort of middle-aged man, rather than gobby internet blogger.

  41. #141
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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  42. #142
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    I don't even know what cultural appropriation is. I hope I do lots of it.

  43. #143
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    I suppose the students have to find something to replace all the drinking they aren't allowed to do anymore.

  44. #144
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    It's the SOASification of the world, and I for one welcome our new genderless overlords.

  45. #145
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    That said, I've just read that Oxford may cancel student balls themed on The Great Gatsby and 1920s New Orleans respectively because they remind women and ethnic minorities of 'a time of less equality'.

  46. #146
    Senior Member CJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonsky View Post
    Whether it pre-dated the internet or not, it's definitely had a reconnaissance.
    Err...

  47. #147
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    The kids are using that instead of 'renaissance' now so not as to appear Western-centric.

  48. #148
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    It's art now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamal Blackman
    This is a good first step toward creating a place where some people don’t have to be reminded about something as horrible as slavery.
    It's a university, lad.

  49. #149
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    A university without Thomas Jefferson statues.

  50. #150
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    It's not a massive logical step from that to simply pretending - 'denying', let's say - that certain parts of history actually happened.

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