Yeah but hating Iran is more important for some reason that I'm still not sure of.Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd
Yeah but hating Iran is more important for some reason that I'm still not sure of.
Annihilate anyone with the idea.
Firstly - how do you know who has these ideas? Yeah you can bangerang the preacher shouting about it on the steps of the mosque, but not the guy quietly seething and plotting away in his flat.
Secondly - if you do that, you just push all the people who may have had the potential to be susceptible to such ideas along that path.
I don't know what the fuck the solution is actually meant to be, but I don't see how "bomb the shit out of 'them'/put 'them' all to death" has a hope in hell of a positive outcome.
For stopping it, yes.
The one I know most about is the IRA. I grew up at the tail end of the campaign, and still remember the shootings, bombings etc. And being evacuated because some newsroom had received a call with a "recognised codeword", and that meant it was serious.
The difference was that the British state developed a sound method for defeating them. It involved infiltration of the organisation and turning IRA members into informers. The organisation was so riddled by informers it became very difficult for them to orchestrate a sustained campaign. They could still organise the occasional big event, but they were never at full unrestricted operating capacity. The SAS would also not mess about it if they needed to - " big boy games, big boy rules".
The British could have flattened the IRA completely if they'd really wanted to, but not within the confines of a democratic state operating against terrorist cells. It's not like you could do what the Sri Lankans did with the Tamil Tigers. It meant it took longer, but ultimately the IRA were put in a position where they knew they'd lost and had to negotiate. You then had understandable parameters on both sides for those discussions.
But if you look at this, what options do you have? They don't have any political goal of any kind that we can understand or that can ever really be met. They're driven by religion, not political goals. They're prepared to die in huge numbers.
So you're talking a generational effort which makes it impossible for them to operate properly. Proper, extremely well funded intelligence at all levels and less squeamishness about things like travel bans and targeted drone strikes when they're required.
There also needs to be recognition that IS simply existing is a boon for them. Not only does it afford some level of prestige, it also provide(s/d) an area where it's easy to get to and learn how to build bombs etc. It's easy to find like minded individuals, and develop cells.
I don't have all the answers, quite obviously, but watching the political class refuse to confront the issue is deeply frustrating. It has something to do with Islam, lads, and you might need to confront that alongside the operational aspects.
The first thing is explaining SPECIFICALLY what salafi Islam/jihadism is, how it differs from other sects of Islam, and educating people about the history of Islam, rather than letting broad brushstroke bollocks prevail in the discourse.
I only understood this myself when I went to SOAS and did a full year's reading on the subject in a final year course, and how many people do that, 0.5% or fewer. I'd been fed utter lazy bollocks by all previous education.
Teachers will refuse to do this though because they are so left wing. Our schools still exist in some sort of post-summer of love colonial guilt mindset where brown people = good (diverse/vibrant), white people ages ago = bad, white people now = OK but only if 'tolerant', which, by the way, is an utterly meaningless word/concept.
Right, this is the rub. And this isn't a new opinion in light of yesterday, but rather one I've held for a long time now, which grows stronger and stronger the more shit like this happens.
We have a problem, and it's a big one. I'd agree from Henry's graph that the scale of the problem currently can be overstated compared to deaths caused by the IRA and ETA, but what can't be blown out of proportion is that it's only going to get bigger. Why? A multitude of reasons.
Firstly, there is absolutely no proper effort from anyone to deal with the causes of this and stop it. I don't have all the answers by any means, but I sure as shit know that both the yoghurt knitting response of the left (and those in power), with their 'it has nothing to do with Islam' and the response of the wanker far right, who want to round every Muslim up and chuck them in channel, is achieving absolutely nothing. In fact, it's not even as good as achieving nothing - it's making things worse.
The left (and those in power) because they're facilitating an environment where people are shot down for voicing any negative opinion against Islam and the right because they're providing all the ammunition the left could ever wish for to support the need for that environment.
Secondly, and let's be real here, this has everything to with Islam - admittedly some of these absolute losers would probably be up to no good anyway, but as a recruiting vehicle and a network to provide the means and inspiration, Islam is at the absolute heart of this. Ok, so it's not a version or consequence of Islam that the vast, vast majority of Muslim's in this country practice or even agree with, but it is a version of Islam nonetheless. And that's a huge problem. I don't pretend to be anything like an expert on the IRA (or anything else for that matter, I'm Yevrah), but (and Irish members or historians please correct me if I'm wrong here) the IRA's aims were so much easier to deal with than that of the Muslim fundamentalists (who don't seem to want to stop until the West's way of life is in the minority).
The IRA also played by a rule book. Sure, if you were directly involved in the conflict the treatment met out was fucking brutal, but for all the other innocent bystanders caught up in it fair warning was given. The IRA were active for all of my childhood and I quickly lost count of the number of bombscares (both false alarm and actual) that happened during that time, but I think I'm right in saying (again correct me if I'm wrong Irish peeps) fair warning was nearly always given to innocents involved.
Still a shit situation obviously and I can only imagine what it must have been like living through it in Ireland, but it was a different enemy, and graphs including the number of people killed by the IRA vs. where we are now only serve to distort that reality. For those who disagree, ask yourself one question - what's going to change to curtail the Jihadi attacks we see now? I can't think of anything, which brings me onto my next point.
Thirdly, we have a growing Muslim population in both the UK and Europe and it's growing fast. It's only 5% of the UK now, but that still represents 3.5m people. A recent survey suggested 100,000 of British Muslims sympathise with suicide bombers, so if only 1% of those people are prepared to act on that, there's 1,000 wannabe Jihadi's we need to deal with. A number that's only going to grow as the Muslim population does.
Fourthly, 'We' and by that I men the authorities have not got a fucking scooby how to deal with this. Ok, so they seem to be pretty good at foiling attacks, but actually stopping people from wanting to perpetrate them in the first place? They haven't a clue, and how could they? Those in power are about as far removed from some loser wannabe Jihadi being indoctrinated by online nonsense as it's possible to be. The only people with the power to stop this is the Muslim community.
Fifthly, the 'Muslim community' are not doing anywhere near enough.
I was watching Question Time a while back and a young Muslim man made (what I thought at the time was) a great counter point to the panel about it being ludicrous that the 'Muslim community' is seen as one voice that can all move together to effect change. As I say, at the time his comment made a lot of sense. I'm part of the British community and you asked me to take responsibility for the BNP or slavery my first response would be "are you having a fucking laugh".
But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realised it's bollocks. This is a crude analogy so bear with me, but if I was part of the Canary Isles ex-pat British community, really enjoyed my life over there and some of our number started blowing people up in the name of fake tan and Frank Butcher I'd absolutely do more to weed that shit out, not least so I could preserve the life I enjoyed in the way it was currently. But back to the survey, only one in three British Muslims say they would contact the police if they believed someone close to them was involved with jihadists. That's over a million people who'd turn a blind eye, which frankly, is fucking shocking.
The Muslim community should be doing everything it can with its younger population to paint jihadists as complete tools, the lifestyle for losers if you will, which is never going to happen if only two thirds are prepared to shop someone they suspect of being involved in that shit.
Ultimately, if we (the authorities, people on the left and right and the Muslim community) carry on on the current trajectory I can't really see an end to this unless the Muslim population is such that 'British values' and 'British laws' are in a minority or attacks become so frequent that Muslims are subjected to East German style surveillance and internment, both of which would be absolutely awful.
Rant over, but just to leave you with one thought to sign off with. I wasn't wrong about Roberto Martinez and I won't be wrong about this - We're sleep walking into an awful future at the moment, an absolutely awful future.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7...muslims-survey
You cut off the funds to the madrassas that teach it, which overwhelmingly come from Saudi Arabia. But apparently we have to be best mates with them instead, because reasons.
1000 words to say 'I don't know, lock them all up. I'd pretend to feel bad about it for a bit but meh.'
That shit is not left wing. It is moronic. It is as left wing as racism is right wing.
https://twitter.com/EamonnHolmes/sta...39600265932801
I think this is right up there with the most disgraceful tweets of all time.
Absolutely.
Look at him going at it in the follow up comments as well. What a fucking cunt.
Eamonn needs narrative. Feed the beast. Disgusting. Sack him.
I'm confused. Are you saying that's what I think? If so, did you actually read what I wrote?
Seriously, read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-you...b_6501916.html
An excerpt.
There's an elephant in the room here, and there's no point in pretending we don't know how to address the problem, or at least how to get a start.How does Saudi Arabia go about spreading extremism? The extremist agenda is not always clearly government-sanctioned, but in monarchies where the government money is spread around to various princes, there is little accountability for what the royal family does with their government funds. Much of the funding is via charitable organizations and is not military-related.
The money goes to constructing and operating mosques and madrassas that preach radical Wahhabism. The money also goes to training imams; media outreach and publishing; distribution of Wahhabi textbooks, and endowments to universities and cultural centers. A cable released by Wikileaks explains, regarding just one region of Pakistan:
"Government and non-governmental sources claimed that financial support estimated at nearly 100 million USD annually was making its way to Deobandi and Ahl-e-Hadith clerics in the region from “missionary” and “Islamic charitable” organizations in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates ostensibly with the direct support of those governments."
Although the Wahhabi curriculum was modified after the 9/11 attacks, it remains backward and intolerant. Freedom House published a report on the revised curriculum, concluding that it “continues to propagate an ideology of hate toward the ‘unbeliever,’ which include Christians, Jews, Shiites, Sufis, Sunni Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine, Hindus, atheists and others.” This is taught not only domestically but also enthusiastically exported abroad.
Of course, initially there was complicity with the U.S. and Pakistan in promoting this ideology to counter the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. In addition to the radical indoctrination, thousands of volunteer jihadis from Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries were also dispatched to fight alongside the mujahideen in Afghanistan. But it remains a complicated problem to this day because the politicians in the poor countries getting the Saudi and Gulf-Arab funds approve these extremist madrassas in part because the local authorities likely receive kickbacks.
In many places in poor Muslim countries the choice is now between going to an extremist madrassa or getting no education at all. Poverty is exploited to promote extremism. The affected areas include Pakistan, Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand, India and parts of Africa.
You're just saying 'someone do something!' Of course, no suggestions of what that something might be are ever given, apart from 'kill them all.'
The Saudi Arabia love really is disgusting.
I have only heard the whole 'nothing to do with Islam' thing here. Is it a British thing?
Ok, Eamonn Holmes joins John Terry 'I don't understand him' corner.
Absolutely unbelievable sequence of tweets.
I didn't once mention killing anyone and there's a whole fucking paragraph on how I think the Muslim community should do more.
Unbelievable.
You literally didn't list a single piece of action outside of internment camps and Muslims snitching on each other (which they do, all the time, how do you think they're foiling all these attacks?).
Seriously, those responses from Phonics and Pepe are symptomatic of the issue at hand.
"Lock them all up" "Throw away the key" hurled back at anyone with an opinion that doesn't fit their 140 character led, left tasting view of the world.
You clearly can't read.
Which bit of this leads you to believe I'm advocating internment?
Ultimately, if we (the authorities, people on the left and right and the Muslim community) carry on on the current trajectory I can't really see an end to this unless the Muslim population is such that 'British values' and 'British laws' are in a minority or attacks become so frequent that Muslims are subjected to East German style surveillance and internment, both of which would be absolutely awful.
Yev - do you accept that US and UK foreign policy also don't help (for example, us going around bombing predominately Muslim countries into the dark ages every 5 years)?
The one thing we haven't tried for a while is to stop pissing about in the Middle East.
Lol at the insinuation they aren't already (voluntarily) in the Dark Ages.
Yep - It's a twat strategy.
EDIT: Actually, it's not even a strategy, it's just doing something for the sake of being seen to be doing something.
Saudi Arabia is founded on the twin pillars of the House of Saud and Wahhabism. I wish it was as easy as just internationally ostracising them, but I think it would make it worse.
Get the fuck out of here with this "left" shit. The Tories have been in government for several years.
I didn't say you suggested killing anyone. I said that is the only solution ever offered (not by you.) Muslim community 'doing more' is hardly specific. Not that I blame you for not having an answer, I certainly don't either.
Fuck off with your '140 character led, left tasting view of the world.' I don't even use Twitter.
We should do that whether it decreases terrorism or not.
You say Saudi Arabia is the problem (and it is to an extent) but Bin Laden spoke out against Saudi Arabia because of their relationship with America. Its not that simple. A lot of them are still very pissed off about Israel, too. As far as they're concerned that was an attack on Muslim land, so they're justified in their retaliations.
I did say 'people in power' in the longer post. Phonics and Pepe are prime examples of the rabid wank the left come out with on this issue though.
Oh and I agree with you on Saudi Arabia, our relationship with them (and therefore tacit condoning of their actions) should be a source of shame.
Indeed. We should get everybody together in a Haxball server and just Plebroll it out.
Para beginning with firstly - 'Do something between 'Nothing to do with Islam' and 'Chuck them in the sea'' - The two 'lefty twitter wankers' or however you're describing Pepe and I spend far as much time seething at Saudi Arabia and their specific brand of Islam as anyone. So we're already doing that.
Para beginning with secondly - 'The IRA had a political point, these people don't' - Cheers mate, welcome to 2001.
Para beginning with thirdly - 'The Muslim population is growing' - Okay, what would you like to do about that?
Para beginning with fourthly - 'The intelligence agencies don't understand todays generation' - Actually, they probably do better than you. MI5 prioritises hiring second generation Brits of middle eastern descent over anyone at this point. If you're a smart guy from Bradford, MI5 want to talk to you and will pay you well to work for them.
Para beginning with fifth - Muslims need to start snitching. - As I said above, they already do.
Everything after that - 'If we don't do the above the only solution will end up like the Stasi and internment camps' - Oh fuck off.
Any salient points I missed there Yev?
Bin Ladens anger wasn't at being friendly with America, it was that in the first Gulf War, the House of Saud allowed 'unbelievers' (in the view of Wahhabism) to walk in Mecca. Which is viewed as the ultimate betrayal of the religion.
It isn't that the Saudi's directly ally with these fuckers though, it's that they fund the system that creates them. There are obviously a lot of facets, that's one of the primary ones. It needs to stop.
But let's sell them some more weapons instead, and then ostrasise anyone who complains as not understanding the real world or whatever.
I can't converse with you Phonics, your posting style and random accusations make it impossible to do so.
I said in the post that I don't have (m)any solutions, the point of it was to outline the seriousness of the situation we find ourselves in, which some people want to downplay.
Serious question, where do you think things will end up?
It's because he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Neither do any of us when it comes to an issue like this, really.
He's quite bright when he puts his mind to it, but I'm too old and lazy now to get into multi-quote shit-offs with someone who could read my post in such a way that they would think I was advocating internment.
As much as they're funding mosques that house radical preachers, that's probably an area where the Muslim community could get involved. I don't know, though, maybe they are. I've never been to one.
If you have a Muslim that reads the likes of Mawdudi, Qutb and Faraj and genuinely believes what they read then there's not much you can do. There are clear instructions to set up a vanguard away from society and attack the the 'ignorant' (which includes Muslims) until they've won. All nondivine rulers are usurping the power of God, so its Shari'a or bust for them.
Why does it have to "end up" somewhere? You've still more chance of being killed crossing the road.
Using the word 'snitching' to mean reporting crime aligns you with all sorts of unmentionables.
It's a shame @Kiko isn't a huge Arianda fan.
Yep - It's an absolute minefield.
Maybe I have a posting style that lends itself to people thinking that I think I arrogantly have all the answers, I would have thought there were enough caveats in there to show that I don't. The point of the post was to respond to Henry's graph argument (which I've seen cited by loads of people who IMHO are downplaying the issue) and not to provide a document that the next government could use as a blueprint to stop jihadis.
Because there's a difference between the human error involved in being run over and the process that leads to what we saw last night. The latter would have an endpoint, you'd hope.
Everything ends Henners, everything.
And not if I'm good/careful at crossing the road I don't.
Well, no. Despite the (understandable) loss of perspective here, occasional terrorist attacks can continue indefinitely without either our society changing much or the terrorists deciding to stop. There's no inherent logic that states that this is leading anywhere in particular.
What 'rabid wank' have I come up with? I think we have very different ideas of what 'the left' is. Of course, you are the kind of person who complains about 'the right' being all labeled racists, yet you think 'the left' is all concerned with identity politics and 'nothing to do with Islam' (which again, I have never heard anywhere but here. Even here, it is only used by people claiming it is what 'the left' does, even though I don't remember anyone in here suggesting it has 'nothing do do with Islam.')
I preferred Le Pen over Macron ffs.
I don't think they will end up. Certainly not any time soon. I think attacks will probably continue, although unlike you I think they will slowly decrease as organizations such as ISIS lose their power/appeal, which I don't think is sustainable. I am just guessing here, of course.
A government system that prevented people to fall into endless poverty spirals would help, mind.
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