General Election 2024: Gone on the 4th of July

Pragmatists and Idealists, let's call it.

In the pragmatist corner you've basically got all of the 21st century western political and cultural establishment. Not only Starmer but David Cameron, Barack Obama, Blair, Kamala, Biden, Macron and so on. They had 25+ years of unbroken power. Quantitative easing, gay marriage, low interest rates, celebrating diversity, they're big fans of all these things. When the rape scandal comes up they are cautious and nervous and urge calm and advocate for 'community cohesion'. They have something to lose, namely their grip on the polity.

In the idealist corner, meet their opponents. President Donald J. Trump is one but then there's Bernie Sanders, there's Jeremy Corbyn, there's Elon Musk, Le Pen and so on. All these people resent the control that the pragmatists have over western culture and believe their ideas to be better. Sometimes their ideas involve palling up with Putin, or seizing the assets of the rich, or rounding up the Jews (again), or sending rockets to Mars, or whatever you can think of. The pragmatists despise not only their specific ideas but also the notion that anyone could ever take an idealist seriously, lacking as they do the sensible temperate nature that has made the pragmatists (or so they believe) successful.

What we've seen with Twitter is basically the seizing of an established pragmatist public space by the forces of idealism.

God I love a half baked theory. I'll work on it.

Sounds like The Establishment vs The Populists repackaged. I am all for it.

The political compas just got a 3rd dimension.

Can we give the Lib Dems a turn before rolling the red carpet out for the right?

Oh Christ no. I'd sooner live the Greens a go.

Clearly a fan of massive white elephants but not getting your bin collected.

The political establishment in this country could retire Nigel Farage for good by simply having the same immigration policies we had thirty years ago and locking up violent criminals for longer. Yet they choose not to, despite these being things that most people would support, because they believe that their job is primarily to provide economic opportunities for Indians, reduce energy use, and make their own people less safe in return for favourable coverage in American newspapers. These people are not 'pragmatist' in any conceivable sense.

https://i.imgur.com/mLANhKd.jpeg

This from Wes' big plan to solve the NHS actually has me seething.

It is beyond parody. I cannot express how fucking unbelievably stupid it is.

What this fictional patient's journey should be is:

1) Have appointment with actual qualified GP (not one of the clueless alphabet soup brigade)

2) GP prescribes nasal steroid and refers to ENT to see a reg in clinic

3) ENT reg rules out serious causes of hearing loss and refers on for a hearing aid

The end.

But nah, let's send her to someone who doesn't have a clue who then refers her for an unnecessary investigation.

Let's expose her to a large dose of needless radiation at a CT scanner in a fucking shopping centre; where all these extra CT scanners are coming from, fuck knows.

Then we're apparently going to have it reported before she gets home. There's not enough radiologists to report the scans we're currently doing, but yeah I'm sure we'll suddenly find a load to report all these extra completely fucking pointless scans.

Then we'll send her a CT report which she will have no fucking hope of understanding for her to stress over.

Then we'll make the ENT registrar want to kill themselves by subjecting them to a mUlTi DiSciPlInArY tEaM meeting with a primary care ANP who knows fuck all about ENT, so they can tell them the CT is normal and was a waste of time and to give her some nasal steroids.

Then she'll somehow have a choice of loads of appointments at loads of hospitals to see a consultant about her hearing loss. This already fucking exists, it's called choose and book, and when patients log on there are no appointments available anywhere. But yeah, sure, there'll suddenly be loads everywhere for her to fit one round her life.

Now she's going to get a load more pointless investigations and sees a consultant once, possibly twice, for no useful reason.

Not only is it complete cloud cuckoo land in terms of the resources available, even it if weren't it would still be about the most inefficient way to use those resources that you could possibly come up with.

These people are morons. They have literally not a single clue about the thing they're in charge of. It's insanity.

I'll bow to your knowledge on the medical practicalities of such a system RL, but what struck me reading it was that it also absolutely wreaked of spunking a fuck tonne of money up the wall.

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Originally Posted by Lewis

The political establishment in this country could retire Nigel Farage for good by simply having the same immigration policies we had thirty years ago and locking up violent criminals for longer. Yet they choose not to, despite these being things that most people would support, because they believe that their job is primarily to provide economic opportunities for Indians, reduce energy use, and make their own people less safe in return for favourable coverage in American newspapers. These people are not 'pragmatist' in any conceivable sense.

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I don't think they particularly give a shit about Indians, they're just using them to boost GDP (while sweeping GDP per capita under the carpet). I agree they're not pragmatists though.

Which leads me to a wider point, we're now 6 months into this new government and I am absolutely none the wiser as to what the plan is, let alone how we're going to accomplish it.

I assume the rest of you lot feel the same as it's very odd to have a sitting government that not one member of this board seems to be prepared to defend in any way.

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Originally Posted by Yevrah

I'll bow to your knowledge on the medical practicalities of such a system RL, but what struck me reading it was that it also absolutely wreaked of spunking a fuck tonne of money up the wall.

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It's absolutely spunking loads of money up the wall.

They seem absolutely desperate to replace doctors with any other person they can pay less.

Then pay way more to make up for their lack of actual medical training and knowledge with all the pointless referrals they make and investigations they order and all the cleaning up after their fuckups that actual doctors end up having to do.

It's fucking mental. You've got GPs who can't get jobs whilst they're paying fucking paramedics - people who are desperately needed in the role they are actually trained for - cosplaying as doctors.

Let's not even go there with fucking PAs.

The whole country should be up in arms about this shit. Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. It's all fucked.

There isn't a (new) plan. It was to do things the same as before but in a slightly more "competent" way.

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Originally Posted by Yevrah

Which leads me to a wider point, we're now 6 months into this new government and I am absolutely none the wiser as to what the plan is, let alone how we're going to accomplish it.

I assume the rest of you lot feel the same as it's very odd to have a sitting government that not one member of this board seems to be prepared to defend in any way.

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The only positive is no sleaze or corruption as far as I can see. Nothing major, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Magic

The only positive is no sleaze or corruption as far as I can see. Nothing major, anyway.

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That is a fair point, the free clothing shit was such a non-story and that's all I can think of so far. Streeting must surely be enjoying a few envelopes to implement that monstrosity RL's posted above mind.

I mean it actually feels like what it used to before the daily stories of absolute lunacy started when BoJo was in charge. Grown ups.

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Originally Posted by Yevrah

I don't think they particularly give a shit about Indians, they're just using them to boost GDP (while sweeping GDP per capita under the carpet). I agree they're not pragmatists though.

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If they are trying to boost GDP, they are doing an absolutely laughable job at it.

Seeing as we're covering the NHS, my son needed a blood test today (originally Saturday, but the place we were given an appointment at couldn't do it because one of the tests had to go to the testing centre immediately) and it was a ridiculous ordeal.

Firstly, we were sent to the Chemotherapy unit, where they apparently now do walk in blood tests. Now, I'm not sure I understand the logic of doing that in a department full of immunocompromised people, but off we went. "Sorry mate, no can do, I'm not trained in paediatrics, you'll have to take him to paediatrics"

So we went up there. "Oh no, we wouldn't do that here, you'd need an appointment. Oh and your GP hasn't marked this as urgent? You could try outpatient paediatrics?"

So we went over there, "well, I don't know why you've been sent here, we only do under 4's..."

It took about 5 minutes of arguing with the lady at the desk about how ridiculous the whole thing is, never mind the stress it was causing my 6 year old anxiously awaiting his first blood test, before someone agreed they'd squeeze him in.

Anyway, what I mean to say is, defund the cunts. :moop:

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Originally Posted by Yevrah

That is a fair point, the free clothing shit was such a non-story and that's all I can think of so far. Streeting must surely be enjoying a few envelopes to implement that monstrosity RL's posted above mind.

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Probably got some private companies lined up to take on the contracts to provide these services, with a consultancy role and a big fat payday lined up for Wes once he leaves government.

I hate the stupid-faced cunt. He's not quite as detestable as the Tory ones were, but he is an absolutely pitiful little man.

I see you could have a hospital on every street corner if you just dump Boydy and the lads.

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Originally Posted by Magic

I mean it actually feels like what it used to before the daily stories of absolute lunacy started when BoJo was in charge. Grown ups.

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I mean it's certainly better, it would have been almost impossible for it not to be, but I'm yet to see much competence.

Tanking confidence in the economy through trailing a disaster budget for months before it was actually announced
The handling of the winter fuel stuff
Taking a pointless moral high ground against a man who could invest Billions into the UK (maybe that's why he's started tweeting everyone now I think about it)
Getting embroiled in an argument about 'grooming gangs' without actually doing anything to dispel what they're being accused of
Whatever the fuck that animal thing on Tiktok was

Are just some off the top of my head.

Maybe it's rose tinted spectacles or because I was young and everyone seemed more mature in those days as a result, but say what you want about Thatcher or Blair's government, they knew what they wanted to do and how to get shit done.

That's your next prime minister you're talking about. (@RL)

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Originally Posted by Spikey M

Seeing as we're covering the NHS, my son needed a blood test today (originally Saturday, but the place we were given an appointment at couldn't do it because one of the tests had to go to the testing centre immediately) and it was a ridiculous ordeal.

Firstly, we were sent to the Chemotherapy unit, where they apparently now do walk in blood tests. Now, I'm not sure I understand the logic of doing that in a department full of immunocompromised people, but off we went. "Sorry mate, no can do, I'm not trained in paediatrics, you'll have to take him to paediatrics"

So we went up there. "Oh no, we wouldn't do that here, you'd need an appointment. Oh and your GP hasn't marked this as urgent? You could try outpatient paediatrics?"

So we went over there, "well, I don't know why you've been sent here, we only do under 4's..."

It took about 5 minutes of arguing with the lady at the desk about how ridiculous the whole thing is, never mind the stress it was causing my 6 year old anxiously awaiting his first blood test, before someone agreed they'd squeeze him in.

Anyway, what I mean to say is, defund the cunts. :moop:

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Does this hospital not have a phlebotomy department?

The GP was most likely the problem here. I highly suspect they knew they weren't sending you to the right place, but that once you got to hospital someone would take pity because it's a child.

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Originally Posted by Pepe

If they are trying to boost GDP, they are doing an absolutely laughable job at it.

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Well yeah, back to the competence thing.

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Originally Posted by Yevrah

I mean it's certainly better, it would have been almost impossible for it not to be, but I'm yet to see much competence.

Tanking confidence in the economy through trailing a disaster budget for months before it was actually announced
The handling of the winter fuel stuff
Taking a pointless moral high ground against a man who could invest Billions into the UK (maybe that's why he's started tweeting everyone now I think about it)
Getting embroiled in an argument about 'grooming gangs' without actually doing anything to dispel what they're being accused of
Whatever the fuck that animal thing on Tiktok was

Are just some off the top of my head.

Maybe it's rose tinted spectacles or because I was young and everyone seemed more mature in those days as a result, but say what you want about Thatcher or Blair's government, they knew what they wanted to do and how to get shit done.

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Liz Truss wrecked the economy m8

I wasn’t really wanting much from Labour just a bit of quiet competence. Unfortunately at the minute we don’t seem to be getting that, maybe they will grow into it.

I think as said above at least there doesn’t appear to be the level of absolute piss taking that the Tories have been into for the past 10 years so at least there is that.

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Originally Posted by Yevrah

I don't think they particularly give a shit about Indians, they're just using them to boost GDP (while sweeping GDP per capita under the carpet). I agree they're not pragmatists though.

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Not Indians specifically, but I believe this sort of thinking is much more prevalent than you would expect.

As for corruption (and sort of the above), Tulip Siddiq appears to be benter than any Conservative was over their terms in office, and she is meant to be the anti-corruption bod. :harold:

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Originally Posted by randomlegend

Does this hospital not have a phlebotomy department?

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They probably do but the blood ninjas don't seem to dabble in single figure ages.

I had a similar, albeit more my fault experience taking my daughter for an allergy blood test. Had no idea where i was going so went to blood tests or whatever the sign said, took a ticket before noticing a sign saying we only do over 10s, under 10s have to go *here*. Flagged down rabdom person and asked where *here* was, did a lap of the hospital finding it and they gave me the old blank face I'm not sure why you've been sent here treatment, you need to track back and take the third corridor on your right, ring a bell and then cross your fingers. This was for an actual pre-planned appointment. Eventually got there and it was all done very well. Then the results came back however many weeks/months later and the thing they were supposed to be testing for wasn't one of the allergens that was tested. :face:

I had to take a blood test 3 times, because the first two times it simply got lost. #defundtheNHS

If only they'd taken your blood in a shopping centre I'm sure it would've been done right first time.

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Originally Posted by niko_cee

They probably do but the blood ninjas don't seem to dabble in single figure ages.

I had a similar, albeit more my fault experience taking my daughter for an allergy blood test. Had no idea where i was going so went to blood tests or whatever the sign said, took a ticket before noticing a sign saying we only do over 10s, under 10s have to go *here*. Flagged down rabdom person and asked where *here* was, did a lap of the hospital finding it and they gave me the old blank face I'm not sure why you've been sent here treatment, you need to track back and take the third corridor on your right, ring a bell and then cross your fingers. This was for an actual pre-planned appointment. Eventually got there and it was all done very well. Then the results came back however many weeks/months later and the thing they were supposed to be testing for wasn't one of the allergens that was tested. :face:

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Our ones will do any kids above the age of (I think) 3.

I got sent to the hospital for an URGENT blood test by what I suspect was one of those pretend doctor jobs who panicked and the woman taking my blood spent the whole time coating me off for being sent there, even though it was quiet. All came back fine.

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Originally Posted by Lewis

The political establishment in this country could retire Nigel Farage for good by simply having the same immigration policies we had thirty years ago and locking up violent criminals for longer. Yet they choose not to, despite these being things that most people would support, because they believe that their job is primarily to provide economic opportunities for Indians, reduce energy use, and make their own people less safe in return for favourable coverage in American newspapers. These people are not 'pragmatist' in any conceivable sense.

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They think they are pragmatists. Centrism in the Blairite third way sense is nothing more or less than trying to be pragmatic and knit together competing points of view. Whether one is successful or ends up simply following another ideology is another matter.

They can think what they like. Rationalising stupid shit to keep the plates spinning isn't pragmatism, otherwise the Yorkshire Ripper was one.

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Yeah, that's it done. Farage PM in 2029, if Labour even last that long.

He's not wrong either.

That was Jezza's biggest mistake.

If he'd stayed true to his beliefs he'd have pissed the post-Cameron election as the face of leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-hours-a-month

Our last PM was a Billionaire, I don't think this is going to be a problem for him.

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Originally Posted by Spikey M

Our last PM was a Billionaire, I don't think this is going to be a problem for him.

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He made it quite clear he wasn't a 'man of the people' as well.

The Guardian (and their weird outriders like Led By Donkeys) still chasing Farage across the landscape as if people object to him making a bit of moolah on the side. One of the things you need to learn as an adult is that the hail fellow well met sector of society get free passes for everything, and that's just the way it is. Look at Boris, there are still people riding for him now.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd

The Guardian (and their weird outriders like Led By Donkeys) still chasing Farage across the landscape as if people object to him making a bit of moolah on the side. One of the things you need to learn as an adult is that the hail fellow well met sector of society get free passes for everything, and that's just the way it is. Look at Boris, there are still people riding for him now.

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I think the main point is they *are* the establishment and it should be blindingly obvious unless you're a culture war mouth breather.

Farage really is coming into his own at the moment. Speaks clearly, answers questions in a straightforward fashion and as Magic said is looking very statesman like.

It feels like there has been a huge social shift almost over night for some reason. People are starting to find their voice and state their opinions where before they'd have been silent. I can only assume it's because Starmer has used the "Far Right" line too often and people just don't care about that label anymore. Interesting times ahead.

I could do without having Farage as PM, but if it puts a boot up the arse of the establishment and makes them feel like they actually have to act to keep their jobs, then I'm all for it. I just want serious people that care about the country in charge.

The US election result showed (and many other results before it, but I think that was the final nail) that the progressive left bullshit has failed and is now well and truly dead. People are emboldened by it and have said enough is enough.

Now this is only part of it, but it speaks to why people have found their voice.

There's some of that in it too. Plus, Jimmy absolutely NAILED the grooming gang stuff kicking off. I'm not sure even he predicted Elon Musk getting on board, but he called it perfectly none the less.

The grooming gangs response has really highlighted how clueless these people are when it comes to messaging. From Starmer’s defensive but no substance response to Musk, to Jess Phillips talking about her safety, to the ludicrous idea that a full public enquiry would somehow prevent the change from happening that’s had 20 years to (from the offences) or two years from the last report, but somehow still hasn’t already.

There may well be some truth to these things but none of them have actually addressed what happened, so it all just sounds like more kicking the can down the road at best and another cover up at worst.

Contrast that with Farage’s response in seconds of “if the government won’t launch an enquiry, we will” and they’re just giving him an open goal to fire his cigarettes and real pints into.

Launching an expensive public inquiry to do none of the recommended actions in 5 years seems like a good way to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Kikó

Launching an expensive public inquiry to do none of the recommended actions in 5 years seems like a good way to deal with it.

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Why has it taken two years already to not implement the recommended actions? Why did the report recommending those actions take so long in the first place? Why can’t the actions be implemented and a public enquiry held and further actions updated/implemented at the end of it?

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Originally Posted by Kikó

Launching an expensive public inquiry to do none of the recommended actions in 5 years seems like a good way to deal with it.

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Nobody is arguing that the Tories aren't a shambles, it's just a shame to see Labour following a similar path.

We currently live in a country where Nigel Farage is seen by many as the best option and I - even though I would never vote for him - am struggling to argue with that case.

Nigel Farage the best option available. Christ this country is in the shit.