UK company to introduce 'period policy' for female staff

[QE Harold Flair]

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/02/uk-company-introduce-period-policy-female-staff


A Bristol (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/bristol) company is planning to create an official “period policy” designed to allow women to take time off without being stigmatised in the hope it will make its workplace more efficient and creative.

Bex Baxter, the director of Coexist (http://www.hamiltonhouse.org/), said the move an attempt to synchronise work with the body’s natural cycles.
“I have managed many female members of staff over the years and I have seen women at work who are bent over double because of the pain caused by their periods. Despite this, they feel they cannot go home because they do not class themselves as unwell.
“And this is unfair. At Coexist we are very understanding. If someone is in pain – no matter what kind – they are encouraged to go home. But, for us, we wanted a policy in place which recognises and allows women to take time for their body’s natural cycle without putting this under the label of illness.”


Coexist, where 24 of the 31 staff are women, is no ordinary company. It manages Hamilton House in the city’s bohemian Stokes Croft (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jun/29/lets-move-to-stokes-croft-bristol) quarter, running the space for artists, activists and community organisations. There is a restaurant called The Canteen, and Banksy’s Mild Mild West mural (http://visitbristol.co.uk/things-to-do/banksy-graffiti-mild-mild-west-p1870873)showing a teddy bear throwing a petrol bomb at riot police greets visitors.

Baxter said: “There is a misconception that taking time off makes a business unproductive – actually it is about synchronising work with the natural cycles of the body.
“For women, one of these is their menstrual cycles. Naturally, when women are having their periods they are in a winter state, when they need to regroup, keep warm and nourish their bodies.
The spring section of the cycle immediately after a period is a time when women are actually three times as productive as usual.
“My team here have always been very generous – I’ve been able to take time off when I’ve needed it, but always put it back in again. But until now there haven’t been any formal guidelines.
“For too long there’s been a taboo surrounding periods – I have women staff telling me they’re ashamed to admit they’re in pain. I want us to break down that shame and replace the negativity with positivity. Both men and women have been open to the ideas, especially from the younger generation.

“I was talking to someone the other day and they said if it were men who had periods then this policy would have been brought in sooner.

“It’s not just about taking time off if you feel unwell (http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/feb/10/disruption-women-girls-periods-menstruating-oxford-university) but about empowering people to be their optimum selves. If you work with your natural rhythms, your creativity and intelligence is more fulfilled. And that’s got to be good for business.”
Baxter and her team plan to formulate the policy as part of a seminar at Hamilton House on 15 March called Pioneering Period Policy: Valuing Natural Cycles in the Workplace.
(https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/pioneering-period-policy-valuing-natural-cycles-in-the-workplace-tickets-21423634668)

Pope, who describes herself as a women’s leadership coach and educator in the “field of menstruality”, said: “In the past any proposal to allow women to, for example, have time off at menstruation has been derided by men and women alike. In this context menstruation is seen as a liability or a problem. Or as women getting special treatment.

“The purpose of this policy initiative is to create a positive approach to menstruation and the menstrual cycle that empowers women and men and supports the effectiveness and wellbeing of the organisation. To restore the menstrual cycle as the asset it is.”

She says her seminar will “present a radically new model of the menstrual cycle as an asset for your entire organisation”.
The seminar agenda comprises:


Learn how to maximise the wellbeing of all your employees by fostering a positive approach to the menstrual cycle
Create efficiency in the workplace by utilising natural cycles of men and women
Pioneer a ‘period policy’ for your organisation/work-life
Network with other individuals, groups and organisations that want to explore and develop these ideas.


I've bolded the particularly lol bits, even though I could have bolded it all on that basis. It just goes to show what I said before - women do not want to work as hard as men and want more time off, generally. It's especially lol to claim this empowers men? How? Fucking morons.

(https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/pioneering-period-policy-valuing-natural-cycles-in-the-workplace-tickets-21423634668)

[Giggles]

Yay.

There goes the board.

[Baz]

I saw that Bex Baxter on some daytime TV the other day. Total muppet.

I imagine 99% of the females I know (what, just your mum then lol) disagree with anything she believes.

[John Arne]

Most of the above seems fair enough with regards to women having time off during certain times of their menstruation period.

The rest is just mumbo-jumbo.

[Magic]

Who cares It's her company.

[Disco]

Most of the above seems fair enough with regards to women having time off during certain times of their menstruation period.

The rest is just mumbo-jumbo.

This. People should be comfortable to give honest reasons for time off and period pain can be debilitating and is exactly the kind of thing which is (understandably) underestimated by those who cannot possibly have any personal experience of it.

[John Arne]

I've bolded the particularly lol bits, even though I could have bolded it all on that basis. It just goes to show what I said before - women do not want to work as hard as men and want more time off, generally. It's especially lol to claim this empowers men? How? Fucking morons.


Have you ever lived with a girlfriend for any length of time? Some woman genuinely suffer with mad cramps for the first few days on the blob - It's not pretty.

As for the "women do not want to work as hard as men" - that's simply flat out sexism.

[Toby]

Three day old news. :drool:

Just strikes me as a sensible employer recognising that efficient working is more important than time at desks.

[QE Harold Flair]

Yay.

There goes the board.

Listen, you fucking cock. If you don't like it then don't come in the thread. Moron.

[QE Harold Flair]

Three day old news. :drool:

Just strikes me as a sensible employer recognising that efficient working is more important than time at desks.

:happycry:

So women get more time off yet that's equality?

[Toby]

:happycry:

So women get more time off yet that's equality?

It doesn't actually say anything about having more time off. It's advocating a discussion of the issue and a policy that suits the workplace, which could just be flexible working around the days in question.

But still, even if it were time off, it's not important. Hours worked is only a useful metric in an ever decreasing number of job roles.

[QE Harold Flair]

It doesn't need to, does it? Unless you think they will be making up for their time off? It doesn't say that. Imagine if this were thge case everywhere -the 'pay gap' would increase even more and idiots would use it to try and claim omg sexism. It's just a clear demonstration of what I have already said - women don't work as hard or as many hours as men.

[Toby]

It doesn't need to, does it? Unless you think they will be making up for their time off? It doesn't say that.

It doesn't actually set out any detail of the policy, but the quote from Baxter includes, “My team here have always been very generous – I’ve been able to take time off when I’ve needed it, but always put it back in again. But until now there haven’t been any formal guidelines."

The whole thing to me reads like, "work when you feel most efficient". It doesn't seem particularly radical if you ignore the "PERIODS" stuff they've added to get publicity.

[QE Harold Flair]

The periods stuff is the very core of it. There is nothing there about men's 'natural cycles', after all.

[Toby]

The periods stuff is the very core of it. There is nothing there about men's 'natural cycles', after all.

Yeah, because it's a 'women's life coach' trying to sell a programme of seminars. What a shock. All that's actually proposed in the article and the links provided is using that as a basis from which to discuss working patterns for all members of staff. You're rather jumping to conclusions to suggest that automatically means women working less.

[Yaysus]

are you seriously implying that period pain isn't a thing and just there so women don't have to work?

[QE Harold Flair]

are you seriously implying that period pain isn't a thing and just there so women don't have to work?

Actual period pain can be addressed by a gp, like any other illness reason you are off work.

Or, as one woman replied:


Oh god just no.
Do women in the armed forces, surgeons, world leaders and anybody else who doesn't have a nice, cushy office job complain about their periods? No, the reason being, because we want to be treated the same as men in the workplace and we just get on with it.
Congratulations for ruining generations of hard work on the part of women who've come before you, you've done an excellent job of dragging the rest of us down with you.
Oh and by the by, anybody who is 'doubled over' in pain ever month from their periods would benefit from a visit to the gynaecologist as that's not normal.
"There is a misconception that taking time off makes a business unproductive" - it's not a misconception, it's a fact.

[randomlegend]

Anyone who has period pain bad enough to need time off work should see a doctor. Otherwise it's just something you deal with, like a myriad of other problems people have and work through.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm sorry Harold but you're just not intelligent enough to be having this discussion.

[Yaysus]

Actual period pain can be addressed by a gp, like any other illness reason you are off work.

Or, as one woman replied:

these are all stressful jobs, stress makes the cycle more scarce or, in some cases, dissappear
just because these women don't complain about their periods don't make it dissappear for other women, no? after all, it's baxters own company and she can do what she wants


Or, as one woman replied:

it's a fucking comment from an anonymous account that only commented on that article, what a source


Anyone who has period pain bad enough to need time off work should see a doctor. Otherwise it's just something you deal with, like a myriad of other problems people have and work through.

sorry, no, some women have horrible period pain even though they're perfectly healthy

[randomlegend]

You can still treat the pain.

EDIT: Obviously if you have an unusual case of someone with untreatable period pain in the absence of an identifiable cause, then you'd expect any sensible to company to work around that, but that's no different to any other chronic pain problem. Having what seems to be a specific policy for periods is bizarre.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm sorry Harold but you're just not intelligent enough to be having this discussion.

I'm sorry Jimmy, but you're a paedophile.

[Toby]

You can still treat the pain.

EDIT: Obviously if you have an unusual case of someone with untreatable period pain in the absence of an identifiable cause, then you'd expect any sensible to company to work around that, but that's no different to any other chronic pain problem. Having what seems to be a specific policy for periods is bizarre.

Again, if you read the full article, they're simply proposing a discussion with periods as the starting point. There's no reason it can't include other factors. Periods being regular makes it a lot easier to formally recognise though, whereas sporadic flare ups of chronic pain are going to need an approach far more tailored to the individual.

Also it doesn't seem to suggest it's just about women with "period pain bad enough to need time off work", it's mostly just saying they might work more effectively when not on their period.

[QE Harold Flair]

these are all stressful jobs, stress makes the cycle more scarce or, in some cases, dissappear
just because these women don't complain about their periods don't make it dissappear for other women, no? after all, it's baxters own company and she can do what she wants

It's an admission that women can't hack jobs, really. So imagine if this was nationwide - could you really accepot women in the army? As an employer, would a womam or a man make a more desirable employee? See, I think about the larger consequences rather the silly, perochial, emotional arguments.



it's a fucking comment from an anonymous account that only commented on that article, what a source

It's a commment which says what needs to be said. I never said it was a definitive source.




sorry, no, some women have horrible period pain even though they're perfectly healthy

This has already been addressed. Those with chronic illness, which would incluse severe period pain, would go to a GP just like anybody else does. And most women don't, anyway. I treat women equally, you don't.

[QE Harold Flair]

Again, if you read the full article, they're simply proposing a discussion with periods as the starting point. There's no reason it can't include other factors. Periods being regular makes it a lot easier to formally recognise though, whereas sporadic flare ups of chronic pain are going to need an approach far more tailored to the individual.

Also it doesn't seem to suggest it's just about women with "period pain bad enough to need time off work", it's mostly just saying they might work more effectively when not on their period.

Oh sure, it's just a coincidence that an activist organisation, led by a feminist and employing over three quartes women (inequality?) happens to focus on periods - which only affects one sex. Huge, massive coincidences do happen, of course.

[Toby]

It's an admission that women can't hack jobs, really.

:lol:

You really are incapable of approaching anything with nuance.

[Toby]

Oh sure, it's just a coincidence that an activist organisation, led by a feminist and employing over three quartes women (inequality?) happens to focus on periods - which only affects one sex. Huge, massive coincidences do happen, of course.

Because that's the base of their knowledge and interest, hardly complicated, is it? Those with chronic pain and other reasons to want flexible working patterns are able to speak for themselves, I'm sure.

Plus, as already mentioned, she's trying to promote a programme of paid seminars, and approaching it like this has made it a national news story. Pretty good approach from both a commercial and campaigning perspective.

[QE Harold Flair]

:lol:

You really are incapable of approaching anything with nuance.

It's what you're saying, whether you know it or not. All the data shows that women work less hours, take more holidays and have more time off ill. So, as an employer, everything being equal, it makes much more sense to emply a man. What you're adhering to is the idea that women aren't as capable as men, even in an office job. Imagine more physical jobs, like the army.

[QE Harold Flair]

Because that's the base of their knowledge and interest, hardly complicated, is it? Those with chronic pain and other reasons to want flexible working patterns are able to speak for themselves, I'm sure.

Plus, as already mentioned, she's trying to promote a programme of paid seminars, and approaching it like this has made it a national news story. Pretty good approach from both a commercial and campaigning perspective.

Right, well when you hear anything about them bringing any other ailment or condition into it, I'm all ears.

Meanwhile:


Women's biological processes used to keep them back from engaging in public life. If a woman was on her period, she was hysterical, dirty, even cursed by the spell of her own hormones. Stigmatising periods was a way of arguing that women's biology held them back from being equal to men − they were irrational and untrustworthy for a week of every month and, on the whole, beholden to their emotions rather than to reason.

Thankfully society has progressed beyond this ridiculous and backward view of women − or so we thought. Coexist, a non-profit organisation in Bristol, has made the headlines for announcing that it is considering giving female employees time off work when they are on their period. Coexist's director, Bex Baxter, explains that the policy is the product of an ongoing conversation about how to tap in to "employee's natural cycle" and "acknowledge the monthly trauma many women experience".
Many feminists have come out in support of this bizarre move, claiming that it is a positive step for women to be upfront and supported during their periods. Baxter even puts her policy in business terms: "When women are having their periods, they are in a winter state when they need to regroup, keep warm and nourish their bodies. The spring section of the cycle, immediately after a period, is a time when women are actually three times as productive as usual."


Let's not beat around the bush here. Periods are not that bad. The majority of women will get a little backache and a few spots − hardly traumatic. What a period policy like this claims, is exactly what feminists and women's liberation movements have argued against throughout history − the idea that women are beholden to their bodies, not their reason. Arguing that a woman is less productive during her cycle is the same argument that was made in the past against supposedly hysterical and uncontrollable women. Are we really willing to support the stereotype that women go a bit mad once a month?
Never mind the fact that modern technology has long provided Western women with the tools to deal with periods in a number of ways. It's almost as if Coexist have chosen to ignore the availability of sanitary products and painkillers to allow women to control their periods. Women can even eradicate their periods completely with the use of contraceptive Pill or choose when to have them and for how long.
If a woman is old enough to be working, chances are, she's had her period for long enough to be able to deal with it without trouble. In cases of dysmenorrhea, endometriosis or polycystic ovary syndrome, women can suffer from quite serious pain during menstruation. But cases of these are uncommon, and most women with such syndromes will seek medication that prevents their lives grinding to a halt for a week of every month.


Although it's almost daft giving such air time to periods, there is a bigger issue at stake here: women's freedom. Contemporary feminism paints women as victims of society, at risk from sexualisation, demonisation and inequality at every turn. In fact, women in the West have never had it so good.
Women in their twenties and thirties are now earning even more than men (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/equal-pay-day-analysis-reveals-pay-gap-not-really-gap-all-1527882), we can show a bit of ankle without being labelled a slattern, we have equal opportunity in every aspect of life. Gender no longer restrains women from accessing society's resources so women are no longer constrained by their biological processes.
Why then is there this desire to turn back the clock on progress and remove women's autonomy and claim to reason? What stereotype will be pandered to next: free chocolate bars for all women on their periods? Safe spaces (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-we-defied-safe-space-movement-free-speech-debate-manchester-university-1533317) for moody women at that time of the month?
Periods are a biological process that our bodies enact on us − periods are naturally out of our control. Without medication, I cannot decide when to have my period. But instead of encouraging women to use science and technology to overcome this biological barrier, a period policy suggests that women should actively allow their biological processes to determine how they organise their lives.


The same argument was made against abortion − if a woman falls pregnant, her body is no longer under her control and she must reorganise her life around this new change. Funnily enough, campaigners for periods, including MPs bleating about the tampon tax, feminists moaning about "raising awareness" of periods and mad companies supporting a period policy, are completely silent on the issue of abortion.
Abortion is not free and legal in the UK (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/abortion-northern-ireland-we-need-end-hierarchy-good-bad-abortions-1531147) − a woman has to seek permission from two doctors, and prove a pregnancy would mentally harm her, before she is allowed access to an abortion. Forget about period policies, those who believe in truly making life more equal for women would get behind the campaign to decriminalise abortion.
The idea that we're different or need special measures because of our reproductive processes should make every women's blood boil. Periods have become somewhat of a fashion among feminist campaigners of late. But behind a well-seeming suggestion that work should be made more flexible for the aches and pains of life, is the deeply problematic suggestion that women are inherently less able for public life than men − even if that's only for a few days of the month. If we are serious about arguing that there should be nothing stopping woman from engaging in public life as much as men, we must reject these patronising and insulting suggestions.



As will become customary, I have bolded my favourite part.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/patronising-period-policy-should-make-womens-blood-boil-1547303

[Toby]

It's what you're saying, whether you know it or not. All the data shows that women work less hours, take more holidays and have more time off ill. So, as an employer, everything being equal, it makes much more sense to emply a man.

Or to allow working patterns to be as flexible as possible, which in an office setting is rarely a problem. It's not about "not hacking it" or not being able to work when on their periods, they just seem to be saying they could work better when not on their period. It only applies to jobs where efficiency is more important than time serving - working when they feel most able allows people to use their time far more effectively. If it's a job where they're needed at specific times - such as surgery, the army, childcare, teaching, retail - they'll get on with it, and they're either capable or they're not.

Your edited in article suggests the author has done the same as you and jumped to conclusions upon reading the headline. Also, the NHS estimates two million women in the UK are affected by endometriosis, and that millions could also be affected by polycystic ovary syndrome. Hardly 'uncommon'.

[Lewis]

What sort of breaks are smokers allowed these days?

[Magic]

I bet Kev is unemployed.

[phonics]

I bet Kev is unemployed.

That's been clear for a couple of years now.

[Raoul Duke]

Sounds like a good idea to me. Places have special policies in place for people who are pregnant, some have flexible working hours/times or provide free lunch. If it's her company then she can do as she wants. I'd say happier, friendlier and healthier workplaces are better for everyone.

[QE Harold Flair]

Or to allow working patterns to be as flexible as possible, which in an office setting is rarely a problem. It's not about "not hacking it" or not being able to work when on their periods, they just seem to be saying they could work better when not on their period. It only applies to jobs where efficiency is more important than time serving - working when they feel most able allows people to use their time far more effectively. If it's a job where they're needed at specific times - such as surgery, the army, childcare, teaching, retail - they'll get on with it, and they're either capable or they're not.

Your edited in article suggests the author has done the same as you and jumped to conclusions upon reading the headline. Also, the NHS estimates two million women in the UK are affected by endometriosis, and that millions could also be affected by polycystic ovary syndrome. Hardly 'uncommon'.

Concessions for one sex, then? That's fine and everything. Just proves my point. You've decided it's about 'working patterns' and the period things is just a mere footnote when there's no evidence of that. There is nothing else mentioned. Furthermore, would you agree with me that, if it's true that women need extra time off at their special times, they can't really be expected to join the army or any other such institution or job where they must be required to work at all times of the month, when required?

[QE Harold Flair]

Sounds like a good idea to me. Places have special policies in place for people who are pregnant, some have flexible working hours/times or provide free lunch. If it's her company then she can do as she wants. I'd say happier, friendlier and healthier workplaces are better for everyone.

Pregnancy is a bit more dramatic than a regular function of the body. I'm sure the wallflowers will be delighted that you seem them as not being up to dealing with a regular body function. Most women are against this sort of crap.

[QE Harold Flair]

What sort of breaks are smokers allowed these days?

Depends where you work, and it's not based on sex. I would argue smokers shouldn't get any extra breaks, myself.

[Magic]

Harold speaking on behalf of most women. :D

[Raoul Duke]

Pregnancy is a bit more dramatic than a regular function of the body. I'm sure the wallflowers will be delighted that you seem them as not being up to dealing with a regular body function. Most women are against this sort of crap.

[Citation needed]

[QE Harold Flair]

:lol:

You really are incapable of approaching anything with nuance.

You add nuane which doesn't appear to exist to suit your argument. Asd I just said - there are jobs which would not allow women to have time off at a certain time every month. Therefor women aren't really suitable for such jobs if we are to believe this utter claptrap. I mean if they can't hack the most non-physical job going....

[QE Harold Flair]

[Citation needed]

Those who support feminism has been declining as the sort of demented femininsm we now see has been increasing. Check it out yourself, you will see I'm 100% correct.

[Magic]

You pissed, mate?

[QE Harold Flair]

You pissed, mate?

Pm me if you want to know anything that isn't to do with the topic.

[Raoul Duke]

Those who support feminism has been declining as the sort of demented femininsm we now see has been increasing. Check it out yourself, you will see I'm 100% correct.

[Citation needed]

Also, what is up with your spelling tonight? Have you had a stroke? Get your shit together.

[Toby]

Concessions for one sex, then?

Where have I said that? It's simply offering a flexibility for everybody to work when they feel most able. That can apply just as much to a man who feels he's less productive at 9am, or doesn't really fancy Mondays. That they've approached it from the angle of periods affecting their working patterns is purely a matter of personal circumstance.

I don't suggest "it's true that women need extra time off at their special times". Learn to read. The post you quote explicitly rejects that.

[Lewis]

'They couldn't do this in the army or in a hospital!'
'Well no, and I don't suppose the army...'
'So then maybe they shouldn't be in the army because they obviously don't like hard work.'

[randomlegend]

Also it doesn't seem to suggest it's just about women with "period pain bad enough to need time off work", it's mostly just saying they might work more effectively when not on their period.

And? Lots of people would work more effectively at certain times than others, you can't tailor every work place around when the employees happen to be feeling best.

It's just a normal bodily function that people work around. If it's bad enough to need medical treatment, get medical treatment and interact with your workplace in the same way you would for any other medical condition.

[Toby]

And? Lots of people would work more effectively at certain times than others, you can't tailor every work place around when the employees happen to be feeling best.

Where do you see a suggestion this be applied to work every place?

That "lots of people would work more effectively at certain times than others" is entirely the point they're putting forward. Anybody who actually bothers to open the link will see:


While this conversation is focused on the menstrual cycle, it forms part of a larger debate about honouring cycles in general – circadian, ultradian, seasonal etc., and cyclical consciousness as a model of sustainability – individual and organisational.

In many workplaces, the concept of rigid working hours, especially the classic 9-5, is outdated and unnecessary. People being afforded the freedom to fit work around everything else in their life - whether that be 'cyclical' issues like a period, when they pick their kids up from school, or simply when they feel their energy dropping a bit - is surely a good thing as long as they still get their work done.

[randomlegend]

Your edited in article suggests the author has done the same as you and jumped to conclusions upon reading the headline. Also, the NHS estimates two million women in the UK are affected by endometriosis, and that millions could also be affected by polycystic ovary syndrome. Hardly 'uncommon'.

Endometriosis is pretty common, but it's a defined condition that needs and can be treated.

PCOS doesn't cause painful periods.

[randomlegend]

Where do you see a suggestion this be applied to work every place?

Sorry I've dipped into this thread a bit, it's light relief from revision.

Even in a setting where you can afford to be fairly flexible, working around everyone's aches and pains (which it only seems fair to do, if you are going to start working around normal period pains) seems pretty unrealistic to me. But I've never done office work so perhaps I'm wrong.

[Toby]

Endometriosis is pretty common, but it's a defined condition that needs and can be treated.

PCOS doesn't cause painful periods.

Endometriosis can be managed with painkillers and serious cases helped by hormone treatment and/or surgery, but it's still a problem for a lot of women even once diagnosed. If I knew I'd be in pain that necessitated painkillers for a few days each month, I'd definitely aim to plan my work around that and avoid committing to anything particularly strenuous if possible - especially if I knew to a high level of precision when those days would occur, as most women do. Yes, there are work environments where that isn't possible, and if I worked in any of those environments I would just get on with it - but I don't see what is controversial about suggesting measures be taken where they can. It's not like it's a policy dictated from on high saying all women must stay home while menstruating, which reading Harold's IB Times article you'd almost think it was.

And it wasn't me who brought up PCOS in that context, it was the critical article put forward by Harold. I guess she was suggesting irregular periods might be a cause of discomfort.

[randomlegend]

If I knew I'd be in pain that necessitated painkillers for a few days each month

But half the population are in pain necessitating painkillers. Yeah it'd be great if everyone only had to work when they were feeling good, but it just seems unrealistic.

[Toby]

But half the population are in pain necessitating painkillers. Yeah it'd be great if everyone only had to work when they were feeling good, but it just seems unrealistic.

Ah well, no point in employers even considering it then, let alone discussing it with their staff.

[randomlegend]

I'm sure there will have been people trying to start such conversations for many years. It's the fact it's being presented as a 'period policy', as though period pain is some unique thing, which I have a problem with.

If you want to deal with these sorts of issues, do it equally.

[Lewis]

Can't we have one thread without your neckbeard MRA shit? 'Ooh I should be allowed to wear my fedora at work!' Bore off, Mountain Dew.

[Toby]

I'm sure there will have been people trying to start such conversations for many years. It's the fact it's being presented as a 'period policy', as though period pain is some unique thing, which I have a problem with.

If you want to deal with these sorts of issues, do it equally.

I'd agree with that, but as I've said to Harold, it appears to me that tagging it as "period policy" is largely an attempt to stir up some publicity and energise the debate, which it evidently been successful in doing. Once you get past the headline it's clearly not just about periods.

[randomlegend]

Can't we have one thread without your neckbeard MRA shit? 'Ooh I should be allowed to wear my fedora at work!' Bore off, Mountain Dew.

You're right, the infection control nurses are all women. Fucking matriarchy.

[Boydy]

[Citation needed]


A mod/admin should change Harold's signature to that.

[elth]

I'm so glad randomlegend is here to explain to women why they're thankless whiners who just need to fuck off to the doctor for drugs that don't work instead of blathering on about their little aches and pains. As a man, his perspective on women with chronic untreatable internal haemorrhaging induced agony is invaluable.

If only more unqualified men with no experience, education or empathy felt freer to blithely opine from their entitled ignorance, the world would truly be an amazing place.

[phonics]

What's the constant reference to office work as well, the lady seems to run a charity/exhibition space, I'm not sure she's grinding the economy to a halt by letting people have a blob break once a month.

[Lewis]

elth definitely has sympathy periods.

[elth]

What's the constant reference to office work as well, the lady seems to run a charity/exhibition space, I'm not sure she's grinding the economy to a halt by letting people have a blob break once a month.

BUT THE FLOODGATES ARE OPENING PHONICS

On a more serious note, here's a nice article on why "period leave" is bad because it's a gendered entitlement that undercuts equality and fosters resentment of women by men (this thread being a just delightful proof of argument, thanks Hazza for your predictability), when what we should be aiming for is more flexible, productive and sympathetic workplaces in general.

http://www.gadgette.com/2016/03/03/period-leave/

[John Arne]

It's an admission that women can't hack jobs, really. So imagine if this was nationwide - could you really accepot women in the army? As an employer, would a womam or a man make a more desirable employee? See, I think about the larger consequences rather the silly, perochial, emotional arguments.


If only the army had some sort of physical tests that could eliminate those not suitable to serve. A woman with chronic period pain will fail the physical test, just as much as a bloke with terrible back pain would.

[ItalAussie]

BUT THE FLOODGATES ARE OPENING PHONICS

On a more serious note, here's a nice article on why "period leave" is bad because it's a gendered entitlement that undercuts equality and fosters resentment of women by men (this thread being a just delightful proof of argument, thanks Hazza for your predictability), when what we should be aiming for is more flexible, productive and sympathetic workplaces in general.

http://www.gadgette.com/2016/03/03/period-leave/

That's a thought-provoking article.

It seems like flexible employment is often likely to improve workplace efficiency, so it's really a matter of overcoming inertia. You see that level of flexibility a lot in my branch of academia, because you can think just as well, if not better, in your comfortable home environment. As long as you get in for things like classes or meetings, people are generally fairly happy for you to work however suits you best, and the institution benefits from that.

[randomlegend]

I'm so glad randomlegend is here to explain to women why they're thankless whiners who just need to fuck off to the doctor for drugs that don't work instead of blathering on about their little aches and pains. As a man, his perspective on women with chronic untreatable internal haemorrhaging induced agony is invaluable.

If only more unqualified men with no experience, education or empathy felt freer to blithely opine from their entitled ignorance, the world would truly be an amazing place.

:lol:

I'm less than a year away from qualifying as a doctor, a job I've spent 7 years training for and might yet have to give up on because of a chronic pain condition. I think I understand the issue pretty well from a few perspectives, tbh.

Edit: just read your second post, I'm such a tit :moop:

[QE Harold Flair]

[Citation needed]

Also, what is up with your spelling tonight? Have you had a stroke? Get your shit together.

You're really that lazy?

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/8/8372417/feminist-gender-equality-poll


18% identify as feminists in the US, compared to 27% a few years ago. And only 8% in the UK.

[QE Harold Flair]

Endometriosis can be managed with painkillers and serious cases helped by hormone treatment and/or surgery, but it's still a problem for a lot of women even once diagnosed. If I knew I'd be in pain that necessitated painkillers for a few days each month, I'd definitely aim to plan my work around that and avoid committing to anything particularly strenuous if possible - especially if I knew to a high level of precision when those days would occur, as most women do. Yes, there are work environments where that isn't possible, and if I worked in any of those environments I would just get on with it - but I don't see what is controversial about suggesting measures be taken where they can. It's not like it's a policy dictated from on high saying all women must stay home while menstruating, which reading Harold's IB Times article you'd almost think it was.

And it wasn't me who brought up PCOS in that context, it was the critical article put forward by Harold. I guess she was suggesting irregular periods might be a cause of discomfort.

It makes you wonder how the poor women who need your help have managed for all these years, doesn't it? I guess men and women just aren't equal at all in terms of work capability. That's you saying that, not me.

[QE Harold Flair]

Can't we have one thread without your neckbeard MRA shit? 'Ooh I should be allowed to wear my fedora at work!' Bore off, Mountain Dew.

Yes, becasue any opposition to batshit feminists is 'MRA shit'.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'd agree with that, but as I've said to Harold, it appears to me that tagging it as "period policy" is largely an attempt to stir up some publicity and energise the debate, which it evidently been successful in doing. Once you get past the headline it's clearly not just about periods.

What 'cycles' do men have, then? She's not said anything about that. You're giving excuses which she doesn't even make herself.

[QE Harold Flair]

A mod/admin should change Harold's signature to that.

Yes, they should. Since I'm apparently the only one who is continually asked to back up everything. It's not hard information to find, if he was really interested.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm so glad randomlegend is here to explain to women why they're thankless whiners who just need to fuck off to the doctor for drugs that don't work instead of blathering on about their little aches and pains. As a man, his perspective on women with chronic untreatable internal haemorrhaging induced agony is invaluable.

If only more unqualified men with no experience, education or empathy felt freer to blithely opine from their entitled ignorance, the world would truly be an amazing place.

What women really need , since they're just little wallflowers, is men treating them as such. That's what women really need.

[John Arne]

Multi-quote is your friend

https://gyazo.com/02ea3f824374f5adb1ad6e996f81c998.png

[QE Harold Flair]

If only the army had some sort of physical tests that could eliminate those not suitable to serve. A woman with chronic period pain will fail the physical test, just as much as a bloke with terrible back pain would.

Those with a monthly cycle, perhaps? Otherwise known as half the population. I don't think you quite get the point I was making. In fact, I completely agree with you - those with chronic pains should not be at work. But we're not talking about those with chronic pains, are we?

[John Arne]

Those with a monthly cycle, perhaps? Otherwise known as half the population. I don't think you quite get the point I was making. In fact, I completely agree with you - those with chronic pains should not be at work. But we're not talking about those with chronic pains, are we?

What? A women can and does pass army selection all the time, even when she is having her period. I'm saying that if a woman has really bad periods, then it's likely she will fail selection anyway for such a physical job. As with any pain or physical injury. Perhaps I am misunderstanding - because I don't really get your point here.

[Toby]

What 'cycles' do men have, then? She's not said anything about that. You're giving excuses which she doesn't even make herself.

You might have more of a clue what you were speaking about if you at least opened the link in the article:


While this conversation is focused on the menstrual cycle, it forms part of a larger debate about honouring cycles in general – circadian, ultradian, seasonal etc., and cyclical consciousness as a model of sustainability – individual and organisational.

[Toby]

It makes you wonder how the poor women who need your help have managed for all these years, doesn't it? I guess men and women just aren't equal at all in terms of work capability. That's you saying that, not me.

You really are illiterate.

[Toby]

BUT THE FLOODGATES ARE OPENING PHONICS

On a more serious note, here's a nice article on why "period leave" is bad because it's a gendered entitlement that undercuts equality and fosters resentment of women by men (this thread being a just delightful proof of argument, thanks Hazza for your predictability), when what we should be aiming for is more flexible, productive and sympathetic workplaces in general.

http://www.gadgette.com/2016/03/03/period-leave/

THAT'S WHAT lS BEING PUT FORWARD

[elth]

THAT'S WHAT lS BEING PUT FORWARD

Nomenclature matters, especially in a "political correctness gone mad" environment.

[Toby]

Nomenclature matters, especially in a "political correctness gone mad" environment.

They've approached it from the perspective that as women they feel more productive while not on their period. They haven't said that applies to all women, and they haven't said the discussion should only be about menstrual cycles. Sure, people who have only read the headlines or seen the words 'period policy' in bold are upset about it, but I'd rather have one group cause a stir to get people talking about it.

[randomlegend]

If it was a men's group complaining about a problem which only affected men, it'd be neckbeard MRA shit.

[Toby]

If it was a men's group complaining about a problem which only affected men, it'd be neckbeard MRA shit.

This isn't a women's group, so it's not really a comparison that works.

[elth]

They've approached it from the perspective that as women they feel more productive while not on their period. They haven't said that applies to all women, and they haven't said the discussion should only be about menstrual cycles. Sure, people who have only read the headlines or seen the words 'period policy' in bold are upset about it, but I'd rather have one group cause a stir to get people talking about it.

The trouble is that because the framing of the issue has been set as it being a women's issue, there's a real risk that a broader quality of life discussion won't actually happen. You shouldn't give status quo vested interests such as easy out as "it's just crazy feminists and their women's issues" if you actually want to generate a debate about this kind of thing.

random - I think if it was a problem which only affected men, society just would have designed work around it in the first place and nobody would know any different.

[randomlegend]

I'm just playing with Tobes, but he's not being any fun.

[Toby]

I do think them trying to portray it as 'radical' is a bit of a nonsense, and they do seem a bit like new age bellends, but they're doing something that presumably works for them and it's got others talking in the meantime. I'd rather focus on that as a positive rather than worry what idiots like Harold think about it.


I'm just playing with Tobes, but he's not being any fun.

Sorry, it's hard to tell when you're joking about that sort of thing, neckbeard.

[Henry]

More misogynistic bullshit, or any point in reading this thread?

[elth]

I do think them trying to portray it as 'radical' is a bit of a nonsense, and they do seem a bit like new age bellends, but they're doing something that presumably works for them and it's got others talking in the meantime. I'd rather focus on that as a positive rather than worry what idiots like Harold think about it.

You obviously have a much more optimistic opinion than me on how likely Harold's idiot angle is to dominate the debate.

[Toby]

You obviously have a much more optimistic opinion than me on how likely Harold's idiot angle is to dominate the debate.

I'd already seen it discussed positively elsewhere before Harold turned up with this late-to-the-party thread. I don't expect it to become an established thing any time soon but I think it's something a lot of 'millennial age' companies would be happy to get on board with.

[Disco]

More misogynistic bullshit, or any point in reading this thread?

I liked 'bore off Mountain Dew' but the rest of it is normal Harold levels of wooly generalising and cretinous thinking.

[QE Harold Flair]

You really are illiterate.

Well no, I'm not. Women have a deficiency, according to people like you, which causes them to need to take time of work every month. Thankfully, most women don't agree with you.

[QE Harold Flair]

What? A women can and does pass army selection all the time, even when she is having her period. I'm saying that if a woman has really bad periods, then it's likely she will fail selection anyway for such a physical job. As with any pain or physical injury. Perhaps I am misunderstanding - because I don't really get your point here.

Yes, and that's the point. They do not need 'time off' from a fucking office job when women manage to serve in the army. Either women need 'period time' or they don't. If they doi, then they can't really be expected to be allowed to join the army.

[Toby]

Women have a deficiency, according to people like you, which causes them to need to take time of work every month.

Nope, try again.

[QE Harold Flair]

I do think them trying to portray it as 'radical' is a bit of a nonsense, and they do seem a bit like new age bellends, but they're doing something that presumably works for them and it's got others talking in the meantime. I'd rather focus on that as a positive rather than worry what idiots like Harold think about it.


There's a lot of feminists who agree with me on this, actually. Are they all idiots as well? They're women, remember? Be careful!

[QE Harold Flair]

Nope, try again.

So women needing time off every month (if we go along with this) are equal to men, who don't? Okay, then.

[QE Harold Flair]

You obviously have a much more optimistic opinion than me on how likely Harold's idiot angle is to dominate the debate.

The correct angle. The reason it dominates is because everyone can see how fucking ridiculous it is. Apart from the cardigan wearers here, it seems.

I'm still lolling at the woman who claims to be 'an educator in the field of menstruality'. If ever there was a female Brent, this is it.

[Toby]

So women needing time off every month (if we go along with this) are equal to men, who don't? Okay, then.

It's not a question of "needing" anything. It's that the option being there could benefit some women and therefore the companies they work for. There is no suggestion it is required or that all women will necessarily use it. This has been repeated over and over, which is why it appears that you're incapable of reading properly.

[QE Harold Flair]

It's not a question of "needing" anything. It's that the option being there could benefit some women and therefore the companies they work for. There is no suggestion it is required or that all women will necessarily use it. This has been repeated over and over, which is why it appears that you're incapable of reading properly.

Some women, right. So what would benefit the men? Women already take more time off, have more holidays and work less hours than men. Something which you seem unwilling to address.

[Toby]

Some women, right. So what would benefit the men? Women already take more time off, have more holidays and work less hours than men. Something which you seem unwilling to address.

A properly enacted flexible working policy would allow men to work around other commitments and issues in their life too. Maybe they don't like Mondays. Maybe they like staying up until 4am watching Youtube. It isn't a radical suggestion to say that in a setting where specific working hours aren't actually a necessity - and they are not for many modern workplaces - people should be allowed to work when they feel they will be most effective, as long as they are getting the work done. There's no need to 'address' your other point because it's irrelevant, and the only reason you think it's relevant is that you still haven't grasped what this proposal is actually about.

[QE Harold Flair]

A properly enacted flexible working policy would allow men to work around other commitments and issues in their life too. Maybe they don't like Mondays. Maybe they like staying up until 4am watching Youtube. It isn't a radical suggestion to say that in a setting where specific working hours aren't actually a necessity - and they are not for many modern workplaces - people should be allowed to work when they feel they will be most effective, as long as they are getting the work done. There's no need to 'address' your other point because it's irrelevant, and the only reason you think it's relevant is that you still haven't grasped what this proposal is actually about.

What other commitments? Isn't that something which already happens through holidays? It's a good job you're not a businessman with waffle like 'well maybe they don't like Mondays'. Tough shit. Who the fuck does like Mondays? All Monday is, is a name for a day. It would make no difference if your Monday start was changed to a Tuesday - you would just hate Tuesdays like you used to hate Mondays.

The proposal, as far as I can tell, is about giving women extra time off for their bodily function, for which a vast minority really need any time off. Something which could easily be addressed via lots of methods as it is, including what everone else has to do when they have a condition of some kind. I haven't seen any proposals for the men who work there.

[Toby]

What other commitments? Isn't that something which already happens through holidays? It's a good job you're not a businessman with waffle like 'well maybe they don't like Mondays'. Tough shit. Who the fuck does like Mondays? All Monday is, is a name for a day. It would make no difference if your Monday start was changed to a Tuesday - you would just hate Tuesdays like you used to hate Mondays.

Good thing I'm not a businessman, but for all the studies that have shown flexible working improves productivity...

I was being flippant with the Monday shit, obviously, but different people feel peaks and troughs of energy at different times in the day. Classic 9 to 5 working hours are a relic of the days of labouring in factories, where everybody had to be there at the same time and work for so long to be productive. With predominantly men in the workplace and women housekeeping or caring to the children. It's not like that any more, and people fit their working lives a lot more around their personal lives, rather than vice-versa.


The proposal, as far as I can tell, is about giving women extra time off for their bodily function

Wrong. Try again.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm not wrong. Until anyone else is given regular time off for a natural bodily function I am correct.

[QE Harold Flair]

Good thing I'm not a businessman, but for all the studies that have shown flexible working improves productivity...

Flexible working is quite different from allowing people time off every month, which can and definitely will be abused. By the way, companies with all men would out-perform comapnies with all women, if we go on statistics. Is it fair that employers would choose a man over a woman based on the facts I have listed earlier, all things being equal?

[Toby]

Flexible working is quite different from allowing people time off every month, which can and definitely will be abused.

That's not what is being proposed. I've no idea why you're so hellbent on demonstrating your inability to read beyond headlines, but you're doing a stellar job.

[QE Harold Flair]

That's not what is being proposed. I've no idea why you're so hellbent on demonstrating your inability to read beyond headlines, but you're doing a stellar job.

You don't even know what is being proposed, do you? That is clearly one of the proposals, at the very least. I didn't see any other specifics mentioned.

[Toby]

There is no 'specific' about 'extra time off', as you keep attempting to paint it. You either haven't even opened the link, or you haven't understood what you've read within.

[QE Harold Flair]

There's no specifics, other than periodz, as to why a working pattern should be changed. I've yet to hear an example that would benefit men, specifically.

[wullie]

Less gossip in the office.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There's no specifics, other than periodz, as to why a working pattern should be changed. I've yet to hear an example that would benefit men, specifically.

That's because workplaces and the working world in general is a hangover from the time when men worked and women were homemakers, so workplaces were by default set up around the needs of men. The changes required reflect a move from that to a time when women are also in the workplace on an equal basis to men. What would be a man specific change to a working pattern? I suppose I should be championing time off for laser hair treatment if required, but that would just be giving Lewis what he wants.

[Sam]

I'll agree that women take the piss more then men with flexible times and the 'need to look after the kids' option gets trawled out many times, this taken from working in a (large) majority female office. However, if I could happily get away with the same, then I would.

[QE Harold Flair]

That's because workplaces and the working world in general is a hangover from the time when men worked and women were homemakers, so workplaces were by default set up around the needs of men. The changes required reflect a move from that to a time when women are also in the workplace on an equal basis to men. What would be a man specific change to a working pattern? I suppose I should be championing timd off for laser hair treatment if required, but that would just be giving Lewis what he wants.

That is still largely the case, and what's more, many people are perfectly happy with it. Why do you think there are sites for women looking for rich men and not the reverse?

[Jimmy Floyd]

That is still largely the case, and what's more, many people are perfectly happy with it. Why do you think there are sites for women looking for rich men and not the reverse?

The quoted is a post of astoundingly poor quality.

[Toby]

That is still largely the case, and what's more, many people are perfectly happy with it.

So what? That's not an argument against flexibility. Those who still want to work normal 9 to 5 hours could do so. You're arguing against allowing people the choice because not all of them would take it.

[QE Harold Flair]

The quoted is a post of astoundingly poor quality.

The quoted is a post of astoundingly poor quality.

I won't bother going into why, just take my word for it.

[QE Harold Flair]

So what? That's not an argument against flexibility. Those who still want to work normal 9 to 5 hours could do so. You're arguing against allowing people the choice because not all of them would take it.

It's an argument against flexibility which only seems to go one way. You're actually the one being sexist by perpetuating the myth that women can't handle their bodily function, when 90% can. Those who cannot should be allowed time off as anyone else with a condition should be.

I hope you agree with me that the pay gap is a complete myth?

[Toby]

It's an argument against flexibility which only seems to go one way. You're actually the one being sexist by perpetuating the myth that women can't handle their bodily function, when 90% can. Those who cannot should be allowed time off as anyone else with a condition should be.



You're a thunderously stupid man if you still believe that's what is being said. Even by your standards you're looking particularly dense here.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The quoted is a post of astoundingly poor quality.

I won't bother going into why, just take my word for it.

I made a point, and rather than addressing it you posted two pieces of unrelated fiction. You then go on to berate me and others for not addressing a point that you yourself do not understand. My turds are more intelligent than you, and more likeable.

[Boydy]

For someone who was going on about critical thinking just the other day, there's a glaring lack of it from Harold.

[QE Harold Flair]

You're a thunderously stupid man if you still believe that's what is being said. Even by your standards you're looking particularly dense here.

It's certainly the main trhust, at the very least. I didn't see any comment about anything else which would warrant the same attention. Please inform me if this happens.

[QE Harold Flair]

I made a point, and rather than addressing it you posted two pieces of unrelated fiction. You then go on to berate me and others for not addressing a point that you yourself do not understand. My turds are more intelligent than you, and more likeable.

No, you didn't make a point. You made a barb, which furthers the conversation not one bit and was not intended to. It's usually know as 'disrupting the thread' when some people do the same. The only reason you like and appreciate your turds is because of their colour.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The latest post is comfortably the most stupid thing you've posted on this page, when even making the podium would have been quite something.

Sometimes when you're just bad at something you have to stop doing it. I can't play football, so I don't. With you, it's using or interpreting words.

[Dquincy]

So how do we feel about periods? Can we trust them? And, can we blame the Eurozone for them?

[QE Harold Flair]

The latest post is comfortably the most stupid thing you've posted on this page, when even making the podium would have been quite something.

Sometimes when you're just bad at something you have to stop doing it. I can't play football, so I don't. With you, it's using or interpreting words.

Shut up.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Are you trying to silence me? You're trying to silence me.

[Kikó]

What are you arguing against HB? It looks like good business practice to be reactive to your workforce needs.

[QE Harold Flair]

Are you trying to silence me? You're trying to silence me.

By all means, carry on.

[QE Harold Flair]

What are you arguing against HB? It looks like good business practice to be reactive to your workforce needs.

It's amazing, isn't it? Everyone here seems to be in full agreement and yet it seems the public at large (and many writers, including the woman I quoted) see it as a massive lol. It's certainly reactive to the needs of 10% of those with a vagina.

[Kikó]

Not really what I asked. Are men in that company not going to be able to have flexible hours?

[Toby]

The woman you quoted misinterpreted it in the same way you have.

[QE Harold Flair]

Not really what I asked. Are men in that company not going to be able to have flexible hours?

Who knows? It's not mentioned. If this is following the model in Japan then women get 2 paid sick days per month. Nice if you can get it.

[QE Harold Flair]

The woman you quoted misinterpreted it in the same way you have.

Silly her!

[Toby]

I can see a fair argument against it being treated as additional sick leave for women only. Maybe the silly article you posted thought that's what it was. But it's not, so it was definitely silly.

[QE Harold Flair]

Maybe that's what it's heading towards? There's no actual information of how it works, anyway.

[Toby]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=adult+literacy+classes+hatfield

[Kikó]

So why the fuck are you getting upset about it you silly sod?

[QE Harold Flair]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=adult+literacy+classes+hatfield

The pieces I've read in Slate, The Independent and the one I posted earlier, which I forget now, all draw on the fact that we do not know how this would be implemented. Would it be paid, for example? No amount of your silly pops will answer this.

[QE Harold Flair]

So why the fuck are you getting upset about it you silly sod?

Well what have I said that means I shouldn't be against this?

[Dquincy]

I've got a Porsche.

[Toby]

The pieces I've read in Slate, The Independent and the one I posted earlier, which I forget now, all draw on the fact that we do not know how this would be implemented. Would it be paid, for example? No amount of your silly pops will answer this.

It's not somebody dictating from on high that women should be off work when menstruating - it's an employer opening dialogue with their employees on how they would like to work around 'cycles' in their lives, whether that be menstrual, circadian or otherwise.

Beyond what they've put in place themselves (and the quotes from Baxter explicitly mention taking time off during periods to be made up at a later date, i.e. basic flexitime that already exists in thousands of workplaces around the country), they're just proposing that employers discuss it with their staff and decide what would work for that particular workplace.

Anybody who thinks it says more than that simply hasn't read it properly, so you can plead to authority all you like, but you'll still be hammering away at a nonsense point.

[Lewis]

But how do we know this isn't going to lead to women ruining the army? That certainly seems to be the thrust of it. Besides, why do more men kill themselves than women? Surely you agree that that isn't the answer?

[QE Harold Flair]

It's not somebody dictating from on high that women should be off work when menstruating - it's an employer opening dialogue with their employees on how they would like to work around 'cycles' in their lives, whether that be menstrual, circadian or otherwise.

Beyond what they've put in place themselves (and the quotes from Baxter explicitly mention taking time off during periods to be made up at a later date, i.e. basic flexitime that already exists in thousands of workplaces around the country), they're just proposing that employers discuss it with their staff and decide what would work for that particular workplace.

Anybody who thinks it says more than that simply hasn't read it properly, so you can plead to authority all you like, but you'll still be hammering away at a nonsense point.

Right, let's se how many men there work around their 'cycles', then. You've also stated that they will derfinitewly make up these days at a later date, which was not stated. Flexitime does exist - but it is not predicated on your sexual organs. You keep asserting that you know how this will work when you do not. If it follows the Japanese model, which she alludes to by the way, then they will have 2 paid sick days a month.

[QE Harold Flair]

But how do we know this isn't going to lead to women ruining the army? That certainly seems to be the thrust of it. Besides, why do more men kill themselves than women? Surely you agree that that isn't the answer?

It won't. You know why? Because women who go into the army won't be feminists who complain about their normal bodily functions.

More men kill themselves because we live in a world where traditional men's strengths are frowned upon, family and law courts do not treat them fairly, and feminine qualities are lauded.

[Toby]

Right, let's se how many men there work around their 'cycles', then.

Working when they feel they will be most effective? Plenty men and women in plenty of industries already do exactly that.


You've also stated that they will derfinitewly make up these days at a later date, which was not stated.

Where have I said 'definitely'? All I've said is that there is a suggestion that is the case and absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise, which rather contradicts your nonsense about women being 'given extra time off'.


Flexitime does exist - but it is not predicated on your sexual organs.

This isn't definitively either. It's a female employer saying, 'I've seen women struggle to work at their best while menstruating' and using that as impetus to talk about flexible working hours. That's it.


You keep asserting that you know how this will work when you do not.

What?


If it follows the Japanese model, which she alludes to by the way, then they will have 2 paid sick days a month.

Where does she mention the Japanese model?

[Toby]

But how do we know this isn't going to lead to women ruining the army? That certainly seems to be the thrust of it. Besides, why do more men kill themselves than women? Surely you agree that that isn't the answer?

:D

caps

[Toby]

It won't. You know why? Because women who go into the army won't be feminists who complain about their normal bodily functions.

More men kill themselves because we live in a world where traditional men's strengths are frowned upon, family and law courts do not treat them fairly, and feminine qualities are lauded.

Nevermind the men who kill themselves who feel pressure to behave in traditionally masculine ways, though. They're not real men so they don't matter.

[QE Harold Flair]

Fuck sakes I just had a whole reply of sheer donnage which showed people up and closed it by accident. So I will just use the best bits which are secially lol to anyone with sense.

Firstly lol at this


“I always say that when women are in their ovulatory phase of their cycle they could do 10 people’s jobs they are that fired up.”

Yes women are superhumans!


"Many companies are male-dominated and encourage long hours but there is a misconception that taking time off makes a business unproductive," Yea, huge, massive misconception, that.


"The spring section of the cycle, immediately after a period, is a time when women are actually three times as productive as usual." Yea, nothing to back that up but just believe me, anyway!


The school teaches “a radical new approach to woman's health and wellbeing; creativity and leadership; and spiritual life based on the power of our menstruality consciousness.”

Well, this is clearly for men, too. Clearly. I, for one, am not sure how I could cope without menstruality conciousness.


“We must remember that this isn’t about women working less. In fact, women can do 10 people’s jobs when they’re ovulating in terms of physical energy."

More outlandish claims as to the superhuman ability of women. Despite the fact she claimed earlier that they were '3 times as effective in this time', for which no evidence was cited of course, that apparently equates to the work of '10 people'. Astonishing logic.


“I was talking to someone the other day and they said if it were men who had periods then this policy would have been brought in sooner."

Can't argue with that level of critical thinking. More man-hating, belittling tripe. But that's okay. Never mind that men account for 96% of workplace deaths since they work in much more dangerous jobs than 'an office'.


Pope, who describes herself as a women’s leadership coach and educator in the “field of menstruality”

What? No, she's there for men as well! Can't you see that!

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276268/binaries/BRDB20160229C-001_C%201.jpg

Neckbeard cucks lol.


"We work on a triangle ethos of 'trust, love and play"

Yes, and maybe that kind of fuzzy thinking is why women do not make good leaders. The women who do make good leaders demonstrate more manly qualities, a'la Thatcher.


The seminar will tackle questions surrounding the issue, such as whether taking time off due to periods threatens women's employability or whether it is unfair to men.

It will also explore whether it is feasible for women to take time off every month.


Nothing said there about making the time up. Sounds quite Japanese to me, but we will soon see as they will be having a seminar soon. I will crow loudly, I fear (for you).

[QE Harold Flair]

Nevermind the men who kill themselves who feel pressure to behave in traditionally masculine ways, though. They're not real men so they don't matter.

It's surprising that has been going up and up as our society has become more feminine, isn't it? It's almost as if there's a direct correlation between suicide rates and the rise of feminism. And it's not just 'men'. It's white men who have seen the biggest rise. No identity any more, as feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure has made it seem like there is no place for many white men.

[Lewis]

Well in, Harold. Pope and Baxter won't be showing their faces around here any time soon.

[Toby]

It's surprising that has been going up and up as our society has become more feminine, isn't it? It's almost as if there's a direct correlation between suicide rates and the rise of feminism. And it's not just 'men'. It's white men who have seen the biggest rise. No identity any more, as feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure has made it seem like there is no place for many white men.


Glad you've cracked it, mate. Hard to believe it was so simple but its good thing we have such an inquisitive mind to suss these things out.

[QE Harold Flair]

Glad you've cracked it, mate. Hard to believe it was so simple but its good thing we have such an inquisitive mind to suss these things out.

Well I can show a correlation. Where's the evidence for your conclusion?

[Toby]

What have you decided my 'conclusion' is?

[Toby]

Suicide rates have gone up while child mortality rates have gone down by the way. Maybe those who kill themselves were dying prematurely previously.

Hey, the data correlates.

[Lewis]

The Office of National Statistics reckon that the male suicide rate was generally decreasing from 1981 (when their figures start). It spiked when the economy went to shit a few years ago, but that was largely down to people aged 45-59 doing themselves in, presumably as careers and lives fell apart. The rate for the young men you would expect to suffer most when failing to accommodate themselves with the feminised, anti-white world has seen the biggest decrease over the past decade.

[QE Harold Flair]

......
A provocative campaign to highlight awareness of male suicide is to be launched amid concerns that it remains the UK’s single biggest cause of death among men under the age of 45, while the number of women taking their lives has fallen significantly.

Figures collated by the Campaign Against Living Miserably (https://www.thecalmzone.net/) (Calm) show there were 4,623 male suicides in the UK in 2014, the second highest number in 15 years and the equivalent of 12 deaths a day. Three-quarters of suicides in the UK are by men, but Jane Powell, chief executive of Calm, said there was “no effort to get a handle on the scale of the issue, no support for the suicidal”.
She added: “The figures stay the same because nationally we don’t do anything about it. We don’t look at the position of men in society – we might know that more men take their lives, but this isn’t taken into consideration. When it comes to suicide prevention, we are almost gender-blind.”
Powell drew comparisons with breast cancer campaigns targeted at women. “We don’t look at suicide prevention messages with men in mind, and certainly not with any level of sophistication. Putting a man holding his head on a leaflet isn’t going to work.

[randomlegend]

Weren't you saying not that long ago that people who kill themselves are just selfish, and can basically go fuck themselves?

[Lewis]

The Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/31/social-media-campaign-male-suicide) you lifted that from includes a graph showing the general decrease that I mentioned. So if we can have some proof of it 'going up and up as our society has become more feminine... as feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure has made it seem like there is no place for many white men', that would be sweet.

[QE Harold Flair]

Quite excellent, actually:


Since there’s not an entire month dedicated to it, and major sports teams/leagues don’t change their entire uniforms or wear a ribbon to raise awareness, you may not know about this… There’s an alarming rate of suicide among… white men. So alarming, the New York Times admitted it exists and is a problem (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising-for-middle-aged-white-americans-study-finds.html?_r=1).
The article characterizes this cohort of white, middle-class men as having once been masters of the universe – until they weren’t. Forced to face challenging economic conditions as a result of the 2008 economic meltdown, many felt there was no alternative but to end their lives.

It’s not just a U.S. problem. According to the Canadian Mental Health Association, men die by suicide at four times the rate of women and, in Ontario, over the past 10 years, more men died from suicide than car crashes.

“Suicide is proportionately a male problem. Something is going on that is driving higher rates for men in this age range. The real question is, what’s going on at a social level and in a workplace organizational level. We don’t know,” he said.

Though of course after the facts are presented, they still try and turn it into a pro-feminist screed (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/career-advice/life-at-work/the-growing-plight-of-the-middle-aged-white-man/article27726261/).

Unfortunately, in our current cultural environment, a lot of people find it tough to feel sorry for middle-aged white guys. As the Salon piece implies, such men have a branding issue and there will be no telethons or fundraisers to focus on their plight.While they may be killing themselves at record numbers, it’s hard to reconcile this with the idea that they are somehow unfairly favoured in the workplace, since men –and largely white men – hold 95.6 per cent of all chief executive officer roles at S&P 500 companies.

Yes, you read correctly. White males are FOUR times more likely to commit suicide, yet the SJW pro-feminist crowd claim that it’s the byproduct of, you guessed it… patriarchy.

Wouldn’t it stand to reason, that maybe, just maybe, men are committing suicide at FOUR times the average because they have more pressure placed on them from a pro-social-justice world than ever before?

Maybe men are killing themselves because they’re expected to support a family economically, raise children proficiently and contribute to their community proportionally, while never being called “brave,” never being given leg up through “quotas” or affirmative action and overall, generally never being appreciated. If you accomplish all of those things, congratulations, you’ve done exactly what’s been expected of you since birth. No awards or ribbons necessary. If you don’t, you’re a screw-up.
If a woman does it, break out the marching band, we’ve got a victory for the masses on our hands!

Their next paragraph exemplifies just how out of touch with reality feminists truly are:

“Women, and feminists in particular, have been saying for decades that they want men to be more open with their feelings and want men to abandon masculine ideas of rugged individualism, so it makes no sense for women to somehow be blamed when men fail to seek help…”


False. Men are perfectly fine being “open with their feelings,” provided that they’re expressed in a masculine way. Feminists don’t want that. Masculine ways of “expressing feelings” have been condemned by feminists for years. Women and particularly feminists want men to “express their feelings” in the same way women do. Women express their feelings face to face. Men do so shoulder to shoulder. It’s why two men fishing who never utter a word to each other feel just as “heard” as the two women who talk all night long.

Sports. Recreation. Lounging with the guys. Poker. The pub. Smoking a pipe by the fireplace in silence with his dog at his feet. Eating a meal made lovingly by his wife with unwavering gratitude.
This is precisely how men express themselves. This is exactly the kind of self-expression misunderstood, if not outright condemned by the butch-cutted, feminist chain-gang who put that article together
On top of that, the latest social justice warriors will demand that said men be guilted into “checking their privilege” and taking mandatory “cultural and/or gender sensitivity training.” On top of that, they’ll bombard you with false myths like the “gender pay gap” (http://louderwithcrowder.com/feminist-equal-pay-arguments-debunked-thoroughly/)and “rape culture.” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8b38mV6sio) White men are forced to see themselves as monsters simply because of the lack of melanin in their penis.
But we’re a privileged bunch. Privileged enough to make up 90% of work-related deaths (http://louderwithcrowder.com/feminist-equal-pay-arguments-debunked-thoroughly/) and enjoy a suicide rate 400% higher than the general female populous. Drink it in, boys! Your white, male privilege is showing.



http://louderwithcrowder.com/14315-2/

[QE Harold Flair]

The Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/31/social-media-campaign-male-suicide) you lifted that from includes a graph showing the general decrease that I mentioned. So if we can have some proof of it 'going up and up as our society has become more feminine... as feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure has made it seem like there is no place for many white men', that would be sweet.

General decrease from the 80's, you said? That's not when feminism began. It's also a fact that there has been far more attention paid to this than there used to be and it doesn't seem to have done much. There's also surely the fact that medical science always improving has an effect on the amount of successful attempts.

[Raoul Duke]

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png

[Lewis]

You said the rate has been 'going up and up as our society has become more feminine'. If we assume it rose steadily (which it may have done; I don't have the figures) since women got the vote, does that mean society has become less feminine since its eighties peak? You said you could prove the correlation.

lol at the edit. Does that science not work on the middle aged victims?

[randomlegend]

You could speculate that middle aged people are not generally as 'fit', so advances in medical science may have less of an impact for them.

[Lewis]

That or female doctors are too busy doubled-over with period pains to save them.

[randomlegend]

Why would they only not help the middle aged ones?

[Lewis]

Because they're more likely to vote UKIP. Don't you see how it all comes together?

[randomlegend]

Where do otherkin fit into all this?

[Lewis]

Being transsexual is a bit like being gluten intolerant: for every real one, there are fifteen or twenty just trying it on for attention. Sorry if that sounds rude. We don’t mean to disparage those suffering from transgenderism; rather, to finger the epidemic of imitation identity disorders and theatrical attention-seeking currently infesting social networks such as Tumblr, making a mockery of genuine sufferers.

Greed, selfishness, too much spare time and access to the internet can have a curious effect on some people. And when you throw in the modern tendency toward whining entitlement and the perpetual broadcast of every thought, feeling and inclination, something truly weird emerges: people who demand to be regarded and treated as things they are self-evidently not, such as white girls advertising to the world that they are “mentally black” and tortured musicians who advertise their “true” Romany identity despite having no gypsy blood in their veins whatsoever.

It gets even more crazy, as we’ll see. To understand this bizarre world of people who believe they are trans-species or trans-ethnic or trans-cultural, it is best to start with the marginally less weird world of “furries.” Furries are people who have created a “fursona”, a sort of animal character to which they relate and which in many cases they leverage as part of their sexual identity, normally to overcome self-doubt or self-confidence issues.

Fursonas manifest themselves as parodies of furry animals–often cats and dogs–which are then heavily sexualised, albeit in cartoonish fashion. For lonely people stuck in front of their laptops, fursonas become a sort of crutch for social interaction.

Unsurprisingly, the line between fiction and reality can easily become blurred: the longer furries spend with their character, the more likely they are to mistake themselves for a wolf with oversized genitals. This can become particularly apparent when another person insults their fursona; furries become very protective of their alter egos.

The following video, which is not appropriate for consumption at work, shows what happens when the desire to perform on the internet collides with deep psychosexual dysfunction and, in this case, comic book fetishes. (The comorbidity of confused sexual identities, shaped by internet culture, and pathological narcissism go hand in hand.)



Don’t underestimate what a huge trend these disturbing alternative lifestyles represent: although, of course, there is little data on the number of people who identify as animals or whose sexuality is dependent on animal personas, the levels of activity across the many furry forums online suggest that there are tens of thousands of furries worldwide.

Yet furries are merely a stepping stone between normal people and online cultures where people reject their real identity entirely, because they say there is a mismatch between their mental identity and their physical bodies. The largest of these subcultures, after trangenderism itself, is known as “otherkin.”



UsSAKl4Like furries, otherkin often create online avatars which they hide behind, but instead of keeping their real selves separate from psychosocial or sexual imaginings, they seem to believe that the character they have created is a truer reflection of who they “really are.”

Some otherkins believe they are literally not human, while others believe that only their soul is non-human and that they are trapped in the wrong body. It can sometimes look like an unintentionally funny free-for-all. But whether you think you are a reincarnation of a Cherokee man-beast, you think you come from a long line of otherkin field mice or you think your soul flew in from a parallel universe (we do not jest), anything is permissible in the ego-centric world of otherkin.

It is enough, in this community, merely to assert your “true” identity; then, the social effects of the internet take over, and you are provided with psychological enablers at terrifying scale in the form of supporters, fellow travellers and generally sympathetic parties who will encourage you to “become who you really are.”

And otherkin can sometimes believe they are very strange things indeed. Dragons, werewolves, angels, demons, elves, cartoon characters… it’s amazing what alienation from mainstream society can do to the imagination. While this may all sound entertaining, there is a darker side, with otherkin reporting extreme difficulty relating to other human beings in conventional sexual situations.

Iron sharpens iron: kin meet in closed online worlds where they can indulge in their fantasies together. And when people who believe they are the reincarnation of a medieval tree nymph or merely a wolf find themselves with an indulgent audience, they struggle to escape from the rabbit-hole. They start citing various feelings, allergies, hallucinations and psychic abilities as “proof” of their wild claims.

While otherkin are sometimes reluctant to describe their lifestyle choices away from their laptops, it’s not hard to see a pattern in the type of people drawn to the subculture. They are invariably depressed, confused about their sexuality, socially marginalised and easily offended–which suggests that the number of Millennials who indulge in these habits is probably gigantic.

The aetiology of otherkin is the subject of debate. But it is a sufficiently established subculture for there to be multiple theories about why people end up believing they are cats or cockatiels. Not all of them are as straightforward as, “it’s a cry for attention.”

Dark fantasies of surgery undergone to achieve parity with the perceived real self are regularly exchanged on these boards: in a grotesque parody of transgender surgery, this notorious fake image (not for the faint of heart), purports to show a man grafting elements of a severed dog’s head onto his own body in an attempt to become more canine.

Where otherkin have been successful in commandeering identity politics to their own fantastical ends, others have followed, with new and ever-more complex self-descriptors. Perhaps the most disquieting of these people are those who claim to be trans-ethnic or trans-cultural.

tumblr_msv7og0uml1shaqpfo1_400Trans-ethnics believe that they were born into the wrong race. Interestingly, it only seems to be caucasians who suffer from this particular affliction; black teens seem happier as they are. Indeed, caucasians represent an overwhelming proportion of all these trans groups.

But a growing number of young white teens, predominantly girls, are using words such as “transnigger” to describe themselves, to the bafflement and occasional fury of black people. For some time, apocryphal stories and jokes such as the image to the left have been circulated online; but our research has shown that there is now a modest but burgeoning community of sincere transniggers centred on the Tumblr social network.

It never seems to be the literal physical attributes of another race or any perceived advantage of belonging to another ethnicity that drives people to declare that they’re “not white in the head.” Rather, trans-ethnic people seem more consumed with assimilating what they feel to be the oppressed aspects of that race–for example, demanding special privileges because their “authentic” black self.

The tragicomic result, which we have seen played out on Tumblr and Twitter in our research, is white middle-class American girls demanding time off from college examinations to deal with the trauma of black shootings. Sometimes, shockingly, they even invoke slavery, which would appear to be the point at which trans-racialism overtakes species dysphoria as a serious psychiatric problem, at the level of clinical lycanthropy.

Others don’t go to the length of claiming they are of another race to demand the privileges and associations of alternate cultures. They simply claim to be “trans-cultural”–i.e., they look white, they are white, but really feel they ought to have been born as, say, a Romany traveller because of the “deep spiritual connection” they feel with supposed gypsy culture.



Modern online identity for teens who grew up with Tumblr and Twitter is a shopping basket into which they throw identity labels to concoct their own “unique” personality: a bit of black, a bit of genderfluid, a bit of “autism” (Millennials have cottoned on to the fact that they can excuse all manner of personal failings with that one). Not only can lonely individuals mark themselves out as special snowflakes but also invoke their own particular mix of underprivilege to combat criticism and ridicule from others.

Two characteristics of otherkin, transniggers and transromany, though, are, firstly, how much their identities seem to change over time–perhaps to suit their current lines of reasoning or prevailing fashions. Witness the explosion of young people describing themselves as some form of transsexual, or invoking gender fluidity in their social media profiles, since Laverne Cox appeared on the front cover of TIME.

Young people have always imitated the latest thing as a way of drawing attention to themselves, but never before has society been so completely defined by identity politics, and never before has a consumerist wonderland of alternative racial, cultural, sexual–to say nothing of interspecies–identities been readily Googleable.

Young people know that in an era where sentences beginning “Speaking as…” confer valuable social cachet, they had better start acquiring some oppressed characteristics before expressing their opinions in public. (Most of these conditions coincide with extreme forms of narcissism, pathological lying and sociopathic tendencies. Draw from that what you will.)

Our second observations is how often these identities seem to emerge at opportune times, which perhaps suggests that much of this phenomenon is not really mental disorder at all but is merely staged for attention and leveraged as conversational weaponry, further clouding the question of inescapable psychological dysfunction and giving rise to suspicions akin to our opening gibe about gluten intolerance.

For instance, consider the blogger Charles Clymer, who got into trouble recently with feminists for some perceived infraction of the third-wave rule book, and then abruptly came out as “genderfluid”–right when he needed an out from the brewing storm. (You might have thought genderfluid was something that came out just before the baby, but apparently not.)

And then there are the numerous self-described transsexuals whose personal disclosures and “art projects” always seem to be accompanied by requests for money–and, of course, healthy dollops of online drama, played out on social media and in forums, YouTube comment sections and message-boards. Patterns are emerging that are impossible to deny.

It’s also hard to escape the conclusion that there may be a continuum between some sorts of “gender fluidity” and the rapidly expanding racial, cultural and species confusion, deeply entwined with sexuality and self-identification, of young people today. Which begs the absurd but inevitable question: how long before otherkin are demanding operations from the taxpayer to make them look more like wolves?

That might sound like an absurd–even an offensive–thing to ask. But imagine what you’d have said just ten years ago about transsexuals, and fifty years ago about gays, and you quickly realise that, at some point, society is going to have to draw a line.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/01/16/not-white-in-the-head-the-tumblr-teens-convinced-they-were-born-the-wrong-species-sex-and-even-race/

:evictory:

[QE Harold Flair]

You said the rate has been 'going up and up as our society has become more feminine'. If we assume it rose steadily (which it may have done; I don't have the figures) since women got the vote, does that mean society has become less feminine since its eighties peak? You said you could prove the correlation.

lol at the edit. Does that science not work on the middle aged victims?

I also said white men, which you ignored.

[QE Harold Flair]

Lewis, I don't see why the e-victory is called for there. Perhaps you can elaborate. And stop trying so hard.

[Lewis]

I also said white men, which you ignored.

Suicide rates have still not 'been going up and up as our society has become more feminine', so you still have no proof of a 'direct correlation between suicide rates and the rise of feminism'.

[Dark Soldier]

You're doing God's work Lew.

[Shindig]

We get it, Harold. You want time off for your periods.

[Byron]

He's Manstruating.

[QE Harold Flair]

Suicide rates have still not 'been going up and up as our society has become more feminine', so you still have no proof of a 'direct correlation between suicide rates and the rise of feminism'.

Feminism didn't start in the 80's.

[Toby]

When did feminism start? This report says the rate was even higher in the early 60s.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/176/1/64

http://d34jb20qqe27k2.cloudfront.net/content/bjprcpsych/176/1/64/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

[Lewis]

Nice graph. Peer-reviewed as well. There is obviously a gender aspect to it, and fuck knows what they were all doing in the fifties (I would have thought veterans, but women were at it too), but from then on it seems to track economic fortunes reasonably well. Which is where Harold is actually correct. Feminism (and some positive discrimination (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2013/04/margaret-thatcher-and-the-missing-votes/)) empowered Margaret Thatcher, who saw off the traditional industries, leading to the crisis of masculinity. Of course.

[QE Harold Flair]

That graph show the distance between males and female suicides grow pretty large, starting from the 70's. Coincidence?

[Disco]

And?

[QE Harold Flair]

Nice graph. Peer-reviewed as well. There is obviously a gender aspect to it, and fuck knows what they were all doing in the fifties (I would have thought veterans, but women were at it too), but from then on it seems to track economic fortunes reasonably well. Which is where Harold is actually correct. Feminism (and some positive discrimination (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2013/04/margaret-thatcher-and-the-missing-votes/)) empowered Margaret Thatcher, who saw off the traditional industries, leading to the crisis of masculinity. Of course.

Thatcher empowered herself by displaying masculine traits, which are often needed in leadership roles.

[Lewis]

That graph show the distance between males and female suicides grow pretty large, starting from the 70's. Coincidence?

It's not a coincidence, because the economy hit the skids and a load of dirty jobs disappeared (women also benefit from the replacement jobs not being dangerous and shit), throwing traditional notions of masculinity into crisis. If only there was an intellectual movement against restrictive gender stereotypes that could have saved some of those men from feeling worthless.

People recognise the gender dimension of suicide in that respect, but we still need proof of suicides 'going up and up as our society has become more feminine'.


Thatcher empowered herself by displaying masculine traits, which are often needed in leadership roles.

She still required a leg-up off a bloke who felt sorry for her. :(

[QE Harold Flair]

It's not a coincidence, because the economy hit the skids and a load of dirty jobs disappeared (women also benefit from the replacement jobs not being dangerous and shit), throwing traditional notions of masculinity into crisis. If only there was an intellectual movement against restrictive gender stereotypes that could have saved some of those men from feeling worthless.

There is, and it doiesn't appear to be closing the gap at all. The truth is, those women who want men to be all emotional and caring and shit don't actually want to date such men. If you have any dating history you will have discovered this. Women like dominant and assertive men who will p[rotect and fight for them, not emotional cry babies.


People recognise the gender dimension of suicide in that respect, but we're still waiting for proof of suicides 'going up and up as our society has become more feminine'.

Yes, and their solution is to make them deal with it in a feminine way. As was pointed out in the article I posted earlier. And fine, I'll chage it to, 'the gap is widening'. Which actually is an ever clearer indication.



She still required a leg-up off a bloke who felt sorry for her. :([/QUOTE]

[QE Harold Flair]

She still required a leg-up off a bloke who felt sorry for her. :(

Yes, but then she had to adapt to a more masculine personality once in power. Because more feminine women do not make good leaders.

[Disco]

The truth is, those women who want men to be all emotional and caring and shit don't actually want to date such men. If you have any dating history you will have discovered this. Women like dominant and assertive men who will protect and fight for them, not emotional cry babies.

It's not 'the truth' at all, it's merely your own pretty baseless assertion.

[QE Harold Flair]

It's not 'the truth' at all, it's merely your own pretty baseless assertion.

It's true, broadly speaking. Sure, some will like the pansies. Maybe because they have to settle for them if they're ugly, but what I say is correct.

[Disco]

So now it's gone from being 'the truth' to only being 'broadly true'. You're just a pointless windbag Bish.

[QE Harold Flair]

So now it's gone from being 'the truth' to only being 'broadly true'. You're just a pointless windbag Bish.

Yes, because nothing is ever 100% true for all people at all times when speaking about billions of people. This is all very weak on your part, I'm afraid.

[Disco]

Your arguments are woolly rubbish littered with unfounded assertions, it's amazing you even believe any of it yourself.

[QE Harold Flair]

It's not unfounded. Any number of studies backs up exactly what I say. 50 Shades of Grey was uniquely popular among women for a reason.

[John]

The market for all the Mills and Boon shit has always been uniquely female aswell.

[Toby]

I'm not sure what's more amusing between Harold on dating and Harold's attempts to mock Lewis' unemployment.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm not sure what's more amusing between Harold on dating and Harold's attempts to mock Lewis' unemployment.

You know nothing about me :)]

I mean this is all very nice banter, but it doesn't change the fact that women prefer dominant men (on the whole!)

[Disco]

I could equally say that you're unemployed and living in your Mum's cellar. Refute it with evidence or it's definitely true.

[QE Harold Flair]

I could equally say that you're unemployed and living in your Mum's cellar. Refute it with evidence or it's definitely true.

That's fine. You're a paedophile, then. Oh, and a murderer and rapist.

I wasn't asking you to refute anything, because what I say is not really in any dispute.

[Disco]

That's fine. You're a paedophile, then. Oh, and a murderer and rapist.

I wasn't asking you to refute anything, because what I say is not really in any dispute.

I agree, baseless assertions are silly and mean nothing. Glad we can agree that I was right all along.

[John Arne]

Well, this is fun.

[QE Harold Flair]

I agree, baseless assertions are silly and mean nothing. Glad we can agree that I was right all along.

I haven't made baseless assertions. That women like dominant men is, as I repeat, not in dispute.

[John]

Why did you delete your 'Here, have some information.' addendum, Hazza? Was there something elsewhere in the article it came from that fucked you?

[QE Harold Flair]

Why did you delete your 'Here, have some information.' addendum, Hazza? Was there something elsewhere in the article it came from that fucked you?

Because it was long winded and not needed. Since you can see the edited posts you will see that the article is in full agreement with me.

[John]

Only if you take long enough to edit it that I get the little 'edited by' note. I saw it briefly before you edited.

[QE Harold Flair]

It stated that all studies have shown women prefer dominant men, particularly in the part of their cycle when they are fertile. It's hardly surprising, is it? We are primates and we haven't completely escaped our animalistic traits.

[Disco]

That must be first time Harry has shied away from posting something long winded and unnecessary.

[QE Harold Flair]

That must be first time Harry has shied away from posting something long winded and unnecessary.

Good point.

[Lewis]

There is, and it doiesn't appear to be closing the gap at all. The truth is, those women who want men to be all emotional and caring and shit don't actually want to date such men. If you have any dating history you will have discovered this. Women like dominant and assertive men who will p[rotect and fight for them, not emotional cry babies.

Yes, and their solution is to make them deal with it in a feminine way. As was pointed out in the article I posted earlier. And fine, I'll chage it to, 'the gap is widening'. Which actually is an ever clearer indication.

The recession widened the rates (men lost far more jobs), but there has still been a general decline. Whatever happened, you're still failing to show how any of it is linked to 'feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure'.

Out of interest, how would you deal with suicidal depression in a non-feminine way?

[QE Harold Flair]

It can't be linked if the person refuses to acknowledge it in the first place. The gap wideining contnually during the 70's and onwards is, according to you, all down to the recession. Which seems odd.

I think you misunderstand the point, perhaps deliberately, to claim I was saying anything about dealing with suicidal depression. It's what leads to that state that is the problem. Lots of men now feel they don't have a place in a society which rather demonises masculine traits. Now they're tring to ban tackling in rugby at schools. A small thing on its own, you might think, but it's typical of the trend.

[Lewis]

It can't be linked if the person refuses to acknowledge it in the first place. The gap wideining contnually during the 70's and onwars is, according to you, all down top the recession. Which seems odd.

It has widened continually since the seventies (but still decreased since the eighties) largely because of economic factors that owe little to 'feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure'. That is why I refuse to acknowledge it. It's also decreased since rugby union turned professional. I notice you haven't acknowledged the clear effects of that.


I think you misunderstand the point, perhaps deliberately, to claim I was saying anything about dealing with suicidal depression. It's what leads to that state that is the problem. Lots of men now feel they don't have a place in a society which rather demonises masculine traits. Now they're tring to ban tackling in rugby at schools. A small thing on its own, you might think, but it's typical of the trend.

So what do you do then? The fact is that most men manage to deal with this society that apparently demonises 'masculine traits'; but say you've got a masculine man who feels useless. Nobody wants an 'emotional cry baby', and you're not willing to 'deal with it in a feminine way' (whatever that means exactly). Beyond blaming women for the demise of deep seam coal mining, what does Harold advise?

[QE Harold Flair]

It has widened continually since the seventies (but still decreased since the eighties) largely because of economic factors that owe little to 'feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure'. That is why I refuse to acknowledge it. It's also decreased since rugby union turned professional. I notice you haven't acknowledged the clear effects of that.

I don't believe you're actually intesrested in the truth.




So what do you do then? The fact is that most men manage to deal with this society that apparently demonises 'masculine traits'; but say you've got a masculine man who feels useless. Nobody wants an 'emotional cry baby', and you're not willing to 'deal with it in a feminine way' (whatever that means exactly). Beyond blaming women for the demise of deep seam coal mining, what does Harold advise?

Of course 'most men' manage. The only other option is to not manage and become suicidal. Just look in schools - typical behaviour of boys is now demonised, and the behaviour of girls is lauded. There's nothing wrong with a bit of rough and tumble. That's just one example. There are much more concerning examples in the courts, where women get lesser sentences for the same crimes, get custody almost all the time and typically get hals the man's money whether they deserve it or not.

[Lewis]

I don't believe you're actually intesrested in the truth.

If you can provide some evidence of this apparent truth you might have a point. Instead you said that the suicide rate has 'been going up and up as our society has become more feminine' when it has not, and you blamed it on 'feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure' without even attempting to provide any evidence in support of that claim.


Of course 'most men' manage. The only other option is to not manage and become suicidal. Just look in schools - typical behaviour of boys is now demonised, and the behaviour of girls is lauded. There's nothing wrong with a bit of rough and tumble. That's just one example. There are much more concerning examples in the courts, where women get lesser sentences for the same crimes, get custody almost all the time and typically get hals the man's money whether they deserve it or not.

The family courts need reform, and sentencing guidelines could probably do with likewise, but it's hardly a package for the mass exclusion of men from society fueled by 'feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure' is it? Similarly, I don't have a lot of time for schools (based on the shit all that I know), but the fact that poor Chinese boys out-perform rich white girls suggests to me that it isn't wholly a case of particular behaviours being 'demonised'.

[QE Harold Flair]

If you can provide some evidence of this apparent truth you might have a point. Instead you said that the suicide rate has 'been going up and up as our society has become more feminine' when it has not, and you blamed it on 'feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure' without even attempting to provide any evidence in support of that claim

And I since changed that along with the ecidence provided that in fact it's thje gap that's been widening. But that' da recesssionz tho, even though it still seems to be widening between men and women. Still, da recessionz.




The family courts need reform, and sentencing guidelines could probably do with likewise, but it's hardly a package for the mass exclusion of men from society fueled by 'feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure' is it? Similarly, I don't have a lot of time for schools (based on the shit all that I know), but the fact that poor Chinese boys out-perform rich white girls suggests to me that it isn't wholly a case of particular behaviours being 'demonised'.


It's more incidious than a conspiracy. But yes, if you want to bring race into it, it is a problem mostly for white men, as I already said.

[Lewis]

And I since changed that along with the ecidence provided that in fact it's thje gap that's been widening. But that' da recesssionz tho, even though it still seems to be widening between men and women. Still, da recessionz.

The economic history of the last forty years has been characterised by heavy industries going to the wall and bird-friendly service industries taking their place (see here (http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2014/02/19/18/10-Employment-Chart.jpg) and note how the participation rates track the suicide rates). Women on the whole have clearly derived more benefit from that shift than men, but the demise of the steel industry and automation on the docks is not something that you can blame on 'feminism and anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure'.


It's more incidious than a conspiracy. But yes, if you want to bring race into it, it is a problem mostly for white men, as I already said.

So what do schools do for Chinese boys that they don't do for white boys (and white girls apparently)? In fact, what benefits do the Chinese get in the classroom that the blacks and the Muslims lose out on? Why are our schools so pro-Chinese, and who is behind this pro-Chinese (aka anti-white and brown and black) pressure?

[QE Harold Flair]

The Chinese come from a culture quite different to the liberal, white guilt twats we have to endure. Or in the case of blacks and Muslims - victim culture.

'Kill all white men' was a freely used tag among many of the feminist left. White men are rather made to feel guilty from this nonsense about 'privilege', which doesn't actually exist.

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/tweet-616794.jpg

[Lewis]

How do you think being 'made to feel guilty from this nonsense about "privilege"' manifests itself in the educational experiences of failing white boys (and girls), whether in the classroom or at home?

[QE Harold Flair]

Why 'and girls'? Poor white boys are clearly the ones losing out here. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

[QE Harold Flair]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt5erv9861E


I'm going to leave this here and you are going to watch it.

[Lewis]

Why 'and girls'? Poor white boys are clearly the ones losing out here. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

Because white girls (particularly poor white girls) are also out-performed by their non-white peers. If we assume that they are spared the feminist guilt that infests boys' education, how do you think the 'anti-racist (aka anti-white) pressure' manifests itself at school and at home?

[QE Harold Flair]

Well there's obviously an economic factor in there, but it's poor white boys, by a country mile, who are worse off. Don't pretend this isn't the case.

It manifests in lots of different ways. Whites are often laden with guilt for being white, depending on what end of the political spectrum you come from. We are often led to believe that white people, especially men, have some kind of privillege when this is clearly not the case. 'Kill All White Men' became a perfectly acceptable meme on social media - imagine that being the case with ANY other demographic? Me, either.

Then there's that pugnacious twat, Dianne Abbot. Been caught several times being overtly racist and yet is still in mainstream politics and on mainstream television, because it was only against the whites. Wouldn't happen in reverse.

[Lewis]

White kids on the whole do better than their non-Chinese and Indian peers, so white guilt clearly isn't getting to their studies. It's only the poor kids who lag behind, and seeing as economic factors are equally relevant to all races considered, my guess would be that it's more to do with shite parenting than Twitter memes and the continued presence of Diane Abbott on the This Week settee.

[QE Harold Flair]

Shite parenting, possibly eminating from the breakdown of marriages in favour of the 'I can have it all' feminist culture, which neglects family life. Women have been reporting as unhappier every decade since the war. So the more rights and the more freedom they have, the less happier they are becoming. That's because most women are happier being the nurturers, at heart.

[Lewis]

Does feminism really 'neglect family life'? Either way, I'm glad we've got to the telling people how to live their lives and restricting their freedom part of the argument at last, which these things always seem to come down to. You are a genuine loss to Islamism (and vice versa).

[QE Harold Flair]

Yes, feminism has led to women 'not needing men' and neglecting family life in favour of a career. Yes, I would say that's correct. I note that you haven't denied that women have been getting steadily more unhappy over the last few decades. Just another coincidence, I imagine.

[Toby]

Self reported happiness surveys are a massive load of wank, hence people in shitholes like here and Northern Ireland always ranking highest on a location basis. That sort of suggests a similar, "things aren't getting any better than this so I've learned to deal with it" as you might expect from a kitchen shackled housewife.

[Shindig]

How is earning money for the family 'neglect'?

[Toby]

Also, it's amazing that suicide rates have been dropping among women (at a faster rate than they are decreasing for men), despite them apparently being unhappier. Parallels well with super happy Denmark having massive suicide rates. Maybe we've had it all wrong and those people are just topping themselves to go out on a high?

[Boydy]

I read somewhere that suicide attempts between the sexes are actually pretty much equal but the rate for men is higher because they generally choose ways that aren't so easy to be rescued from.

[Magic]

Or because women can't do anything right.

[randomlegend]

I read somewhere that suicide attempts between the sexes are actually pretty much equal but the rate for men is higher because they generally choose ways that aren't so easy to be rescued from.

It's complicated though, because someone is more likely to choose a successful method if they are really sure they want do die (rather than a 'cry for help').

[Lewis]

Self reported happiness surveys are a massive load of wank, hence people in shitholes like here and Northern Ireland always ranking highest on a location basis. That sort of suggests a similar, "things aren't getting any better than this so I've learned to deal with it" as you might expect from a kitchen shackled housewife.

These 'kitchen shackled housewives' (as you do arrogantly call them) never had to see #killallwhitemen plastered all over the village notice board.

[QE Harold Flair]

Self reported happiness surveys are a massive load of wank, hence people in shitholes like here and Northern Ireland always ranking highest on a location basis. That sort of suggests a similar, "things aren't getting any better than this so I've learned to deal with it" as you might expect from a kitchen shackled housewife.

Really? Then it seems remarkable that those in actual shit countries in the middle east and such haven't learned to deal with it and do report unhappiness. The happiness scale seems to work pretty well when you look at the countries and their positions.

[QE Harold Flair]

I read somewhere that suicide attempts between the sexes are actually pretty much equal but the rate for men is higher because they generally choose ways that aren't so easy to be rescued from.

Yes, in other words they mean it and aren't just seeking attention.

[QE Harold Flair]

How is earning money for the family 'neglect'?

Yes, that's almost exactly what I said.

I like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ZOiWLxHuA

:evictory:

[Toby]

Really? Then it seems remarkable that those in actual shit countries in the middle east and such haven't learned to deal with it and do report unhappiness. The happiness scale seems to work pretty well when you look at the countries and their positions.

Why do you think the 'happiest' parts of the UK (Northern Ireland and the Scottish islands) also have suicide rates that are significantly higher? It strikes me more as a "contentedness" scale, which is useful in its own way, but tends towards those who are happy to settle and accept their lot. By contrast bigger cities are going to attract the ambitious and the high achieving, who would seem more likely to see some goal in the distance they are working towards rather than thinking "yeah, this right here is the life, nothing better than this". At least, that would tally with increased rights and freedoms supposedly causing a reduction in women's happiness (although if that claim is as solid as your suicide stuff maybe it doesn't exist).

[Lewis]

Or if you do take those surveys seriously, aren't they always won by places like Denmark or Holland where feminism and white guilt are sixty per cent of the curriculum?

[Lewis]

Then again, this recent one (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/saudi-arabia-is-third-happiest-country-in-survey-which-shows-downbeat-europe-a6802516.html) puts Saudi Arabia top. That would support Harold's plan to organise society along Islamic lines; yet at the same time Iceland 'which has one of the highest divorce rates and percentages of women working outside the home' was the only European nation in the top ten.

[QE Harold Flair]

Or if you do take those surveys seriously, aren't they always won by places like Denmark or Holland where feminism and white guilt are sixty per cent of the curriculum?

Those who fully accept their white guilt are perfectly happy with it. In fact they revel in it.

[QE Harold Flair]

Why do you think the 'happiest' parts of the UK (Northern Ireland and the Scottish islands) also have suicide rates that are significantly higher? It strikes me more as a "contentedness" scale, which is useful in its own way, but tends towards those who are happy to settle and accept their lot. By contrast bigger cities are going to attract the ambitious and the high achieving, who would seem more likely to see some goal in the distance they are working towards rather than thinking "yeah, this right here is the life, nothing better than this". At least, that would tally with increased rights and freedoms supposedly causing a reduction in women's happiness (although if that claim is as solid as your suicide stuff maybe it doesn't exist).

Contentedness is fine by me.

[QE Harold Flair]

Then again, this recent one (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/saudi-arabia-is-third-happiest-country-in-survey-which-shows-downbeat-europe-a6802516.html) puts Saudi Arabia top. That would support Harold's plan to organise society along Islamic lines; yet at the same time Iceland 'which has one of the highest divorce rates and percentages of women working outside the home' was the only European nation in the top ten.

Possibly because the areas in which you can actually conduct polls in Saudi will be the areas in which people are safe and massively oil-rich. All you do is look for one or two anomylies in whatever I say, while never having to defend any positions you take. You do it all the time.

[Magic]

Anyone else find it ironic Harold is commenting on happiness of other people when he is such a miserable, boring cunt?

[Toby]

Contentedness is fine by me.

Cool cool. I expect you'll find that sort of thing is highest among the religious too, such is the manner in which "sense of belonging" trumps rights and freedoms. It's a load of bollocks.

[Henry]

Anyone else notice that Harold seems to have moved on from the Islams and the flamboyant gays to make women his primary target. Progress of a kind?

[Lewis]

Possibly because the areas in which you can actually conduct polls in Saudi will be the areas in which people are safe and massively oil-rich. All you do is look for one or two anomylies in whatever I say, while never having to defend any positions you take. You do it all the time.

It's not really 'one or two anomylies' when you haven't been able to adequately explain any of your rather quite bold statements. Wouldn't it be easier to just embrace your backwards-looking authoritarianism and stop having to scrabble around trying to justify it with bizarre claims about the pervasive effects of Diane Abbott?

[QE Harold Flair]

Cool cool. I expect you'll find that sort of thing is highest among the religious too, such is the manner in which "sense of belonging" trumps rights and freedoms. It's a load of bollocks.

And I don't deny that thinking you will live forever will potentially make you happier. As will believing in santa claus. I prefer to deal with reality.

[QE Harold Flair]

It's not really 'one or two anomylies' when you haven't been able to adequately explain any of your rather quite bold statements. Wouldn't it be easier to just embrace your backwards-looking authoritarianism and stop having to scrabble around trying to justify it with bizarre claims about the pervasive effects of Diane Abbott?

It is. You never have your own position which you have to defend. You simply criticise others. I'm always answering your questions, endlessly.

And then there's the deliberately disingenuous shit about Dianne Abbot. If someone white had said something derogatory about all blacks they would never get on tv again and would certainly be sacked from any major, political party. Let alone doing so several times. So it's not the effect of 'Dianne Abbot', it's the effect which allows such a contradiction to take place.

[QE Harold Flair]

Anyone else notice that Harold seems to have moved on from the Islams and the flamboyant gays to make women his primary target. Progress of a kind?

I've won the argument on Islam. Flamboyant gays can be fine, as long as they're not the ultra-liberal, lefty twats. They nearly always are, though.

And I love women - most women do not regard themselves as feminists (because, you know, most women actually like men as men) and that's increasingly the case.

[Toby]

And I don't deny that thinking you will live forever will potentially make you happier. As will believing in santa claus. I prefer to deal with reality.

Right. So we're agreed on some weaknesses in the surveys you cited as meaningful.

[QE Harold Flair]

Right. So we're agreed on some weaknesses in the surveys you cited as meaningful.

No, we don't agree. And I never said the surveys were unquestionably correct, but they give a pretty good idea. The better countries and worst countries tend to be in the places you would expect.

[Toby]

No, we don't agree. And I never said the surveys were unquestionably correct, but they give a pretty good idea. The better countries and worst countries tend to be in the places you would expect.

They really don't. I assume you're conflating indexes of "happiness" that use various measures of quality of life (which therefore show the wealthiest countries mostly at the top of the table), and polls of self reported happiness levels. Western women definitely aren't becoming more unhappy in the former type of study. The latter is a load of nonsense, and it is difficult to make meaningful comparison even cross-regionally, let alone internationally.

[QE Harold Flair]

They really don't. I assume you're conflating indexes of "happiness" that use various measures of quality of life (which therefore show the wealthiest countries mostly at the top of the table), and polls of self reported happiness levels. Western women definitely aren't becoming more unhappy in the former type of study. The latter is a load of nonsense, and it is difficult to make meaningful comparison even cross-regionally, let alone internationally.

No, they really do. All the Nordic countries dominate and, while there maybe be one or two exceptions, the trend is pretty clear. Many of the wealthiest countries are in the middle east. The likes of Qatar, Brunei and Kuwait probably don't have the best standard of life for most, you might find. But really we shouldn't even need such evidence - anyone with half a brain knows can see the obvious here.

[Toby]

No, they really do. All the Nordic countries dominate and, while there maybe be one or two exceptions, the trend is pretty clear. Many of the wealthiest countries are in the middle east. The likes of Qatar, Brunei and Kuwait probably don't have the best standard of life for most, you might find. But really we shouldn't even need such evidence - anyone with half a brain knows can see the obvious here.

No, they dominate the sort of 'Happiness Index' that factors in various economic and societal factors, such as life expectancy, GDP per capita, educational opportunitiy and so on. Women are very clearly benefitting in these sorts of studies, as they generally include some measure of 'freedom of choice'.

Those indices are entirely different to polls of self reported happiness, which as Lewis' link shows typically have developing economies at the very top. Nordic countries do generally rank higher than much of Europe, but as has been pointed out already, taken at face value that goes against what you're saying about feminism.

[QE Harold Flair]

Not really, since women across the board are reporting more unhappiness.

[Toby]

In the crap polls discussed, of which you recognise some of the weaknesses (most notably that religious belonging tends to trump actual freedom).

[QE Harold Flair]

However, Siobhan Freegard, founder of the website Netmums, whose own survey found levels of 'baby blues' have risen sharply compared to 30 years ago, said: 'We pushed so hard for equal rights, for having the right to work, for having equal status, we pushed so hard to have choice.
'But what we hear from many mums is: I have no choice, I have to work, I don't love my career, my childminder is taking half my salary and I'd rather bring up my children myself but I can't afford to.
'If you enjoy your job and it's a fulfilling career, that is a positive choice.. but if it's not, it's almost in some ways that we got it all, then found that actually it wasn't quite what we wanted.'

Erin Pizzey, founder of the charity Refuge, added: 'The hard-won freedom of choice has imprisoned women. I just see an exhausted generation trying to do it all.'

I think this is pretty much the explanation.

[Magic]

I hope Toby is fucking busier in his new job. For the sake of the board.

[QE Harold Flair]

In the crap polls discussed, of which you recognise some of the weaknesses (most notably that religious belonging tends to trump actual freedom).

Yes, I've laready conceded that being delusional about living forever will just about trump anything. Never denied it. I would be happier if I genuinely believed I would live forever, too.

[Boydy]

I hope Toby is fucking busier in his new job. For the sake of the board.

:D