Are transexuals mentally ill?

[QE Harold Flair]

I'd have to say so. What is it recently with all this trans rights shit and 'transphobia' nonsense? Surely any person wanting to mutilate their body must be mentally ill?

[Baz]

I don't know, ask your parents.

[Magic]

Lol look at me!

[phonics]

I don't know, ask your parents.

:D

[Pen]

Yeah, first the women folk, then the blacks and ethnics, just a while ago the gays, and now THIS!!!

It is an outrage! Who will look after the after the white heterosexual men!?

[QE Harold Flair]

Lol look at me!

Give it a rest. You're the one who considers himself so important as to announce to the world that you simply don't want to engage with me.

[Disco]

Because surgery equals mutilation. My grandad was in hospital last week to have his hip mutilated.

[QE Harold Flair]

Yeah, first the women folk, then the blacks and ethnics, just a while ago the gays, and now THIS!!!

It is an outrage! Who will look after the after the white heterosexual men!?

I said nothing about any of those demographics. Next?

[QE Harold Flair]

Because surgery equals mutilation. My grandad was in hospital last week to have his hip mutilated.

Yes, not sure you understand what self-mutilation is. I'm sure your grandad would have happily had it mutilated even were it not needed.

[Disco]

Yes, not sure you understand what self-mutilation is.

It's not self mutilation either you clot.

[phonics]

I think you're mentally ill.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I think you're mentally ill.

I'm sure he is.

[Giggles]

I think the whole thing has got out of hand somewhat, but no they're not mentally ill.

[Pleb]

My head hurts.

[Magic]

My vagina/penis hurts.

[QE Harold Flair]

Yes, not sure you understand what self-mutilation is. I'm sure your grandad would have happily had it mutilated even were it not needed.

It should be, since we should not sanction state mutilation based on delusional beliefs.

[Giggles]

My vagina/penis hurts.

Your arse will hurt when she rings her Da to come kick it later.

[QE Harold Flair]

I think you're mentally ill.

Of course you do. Like any pinko you can't handle different opinions. This place is like a modern uni in microcosm, and you lot are largely the whiny twats who get offended by any dissenting opinions to the progressive (regressive) left.

[Dark Soldier]

They're fucking good in bed, tbf.

[Magic]

They're fucking good in bed, tbf.

Stop generalising you horrible cunt.

[7om]

Tell us more, DS.

[Dark Soldier]

Not much more to tell, they suck ya cock, you stick yours in their arse, maybe a reach around if you're feeling adventurous.

[-james-]

I don't think there's much debate about whether gender dysphoria is mental illness or not. They go see a doctor, get a load of therapy, and if that doesn't fix it they proceed to surgery.

[7om]

Not much more to tell, they suck ya cock, you stick yours in their arse, maybe a reach around if you're feeling adventurous.

So (if you don't mind me asking) are you bi-sexual?

[Magic]

James looks like a tranny anyway.

[Pleb]

More importantly yall eat ass?

[Dark Soldier]

So (if you don't mind me asking) are you bi-sexual?

Wouldn't shag a guy as a guy, but transexuals aye. Makes me bi, so be it, no biggy.

[QE Harold Flair]

Not much more to tell, they suck ya cock, you stick yours in their arse, maybe a reach around if you're feeling adventurous.

Ugh rancid.

Lol at you saying u wouldn't fuck a guy as a guy. It's still the same arsehole and it's still a man.

[Dark Soldier]

Lol

[QE Harold Flair]

That's what I said.

[Dark Soldier]

Good stealth edit, keep on checking that insecurity in at the fuckboi office Bish. Never change.

[Dark Soldier]

I'll nut real deep in you if you want Bish, its good to help friends.

[Pepe]

What is a two-spirit?

[QE Harold Flair]

Good stealth edit, keep on checking that insecurity in at the fuckboi office Bish. Never change.

It said the same previously without the added on part. Nothing 'stealth' about it.

[Mike]

Really though, stick to your Ric Flair gifs.

[Dark Soldier]

Nothing 'stealth' about it.

Unlike your sexuality darl. We all know this thread is a cover for your confusion mate.

[Chrissy]

I'd have to say so. What is it recently with all this trans rights shit and 'transphobia' nonsense? Surely any person wanting to mutilate their body must be mentally ill?

Do you know what is mentally ill? Projecting ill feeling towards demographics you can't associate yourself with, due to your own underlying sense of being unaccepted and unloved.

You seem very concerned about everyone else and how they are "wrong" all the while it distracts you somewhat from focusing on how ill and potentially flawed you are yourself.

So Harold, is there anything you wish to tell us about yourself? What's really causing all this attention seeking behaviour. It is almost as if you need our conflicting views to somehow validate your feeling of being different and in someway 'right'.

Point on the dolly where the lesbian, muslim, refugee touched you Bish.

[QE Harold Flair]

Unlike your sexuality darl. We all know this thread is a cover for your confusion mate.

That's cutting, that.

[QE Harold Flair]

Do you know what is mentally ill? Projecting ill feeling towards demographics you can't associate yourself with, due to your own underlying sense of being unaccepted and unloved.

You seem very concerned about everyone else and how they are "wrong" all the while it distracts you somewhat from focusing on how ill and potentially flawed you are yourself.

So Harold, is there anything you wish to tell us about yourself? What's really causing all this attention seeking behaviour. It is almost as if you need our conflicting views to somehow validate your feeling of being different and in someway 'right'.

Point on the dolly where the lesbian, muslim, refugee touched you Bish.

No, even if I were to take that as true it wouldn't define mental illness. Unlike mutilating your genitals. As for being diffeerent - as I keep saying, my views are probably the majoity view within the working classes.

[Chrissy]

Harold as someone that regularly works with the demographic you would attribute as working class, I can tell you they aren't keen on racism, xenophobia or sexist comments. Most working class people throughout the UK pride themselves in being open minded, welcoming and value ideals such as being fair, honest and working hard.

It's not the 1930's anymore. Being different is not a crime. You don't need to accept it, as I don;t think you are capable of being inclusive in your mind however it is reality.

[Toby]

I think it's something that needs a lot more research from actual medical experts and probably less speculation from clueless dolts like me or you. Given we all start out the same and gender begins to form later on during pregnancy, I can see why their may be a genuine physiological reason that people feel as though they have the wrong bits.

But I do find it amusing when people who espouse transgender rights without question grimace at the thought of these lot (https://medium.com/@readmatter/why-would-somebody-want-to-remove-a-healthy-limb-ffe4494b4f21#.twamtw8zx) having limbs removed.

[Toby]

the demographic you would attribute as working class

Careful now.

[Jeet]

How much this shit costing the NHS?

I had to go private to have an op on my sinuses last year because my doc said no on the NHS, but it's fine if I wanted a pair of tits to make me feel better because I was down...

[QE Harold Flair]

Harold as someone that regularly works with the demographic you would attribute as working class, I can tell you they aren't keep on racism, xenophobia or sexist comments. Most working class people throughout the UK pride themselves in being open minded, welcoming and value ideals such as being fair, honest and working hard.

It's not the 1930's anymore. Being different is not a crime. You don't need to accept it, as I don;t think you are capable of being inclusive in your mind however it is reality.

I don't hate people for being different. I just think wanting to change your sex is a mental illness. It's similar to how I'm always told I'm saying something massively controversial regarding immigration and now most people agree with what I was saying a debade ago. Even most of the left now say immigration is too high - something I was derided for 10 years ago on this very board right here. See, in the end, I'm usually right. One day people will learn this.

[Lewis]

It is, but what is 'trans rights shit' meant to mean?

[QE Harold Flair]

Well this recent campaign to have trans toilets, trans jail cells and all this shit. I was watching the Daily Politics yesterday and the impartial BBC had some 'trans rights' champion on there who was proposing some 30 areas where trans rights should be introduced, along with that thing, Kelly Maloney. So you definitely got the usual balance, which I love. And worst of all, the Aussie feminist whose name escapes me being harangued and banned from unis by the feminazi and left wing mob for saying, rightly, that a man who has become a 'woman' is not really a woman.

[randomlegend]

I suspect you'll ignore this, but we had a really interesting lecture about some of this stuff from a paediatric endocrinologist who said that in many (not all) cases where people have these feelings - particularly from a young age from what I remember - there actually are underlying physiological issues.

It was quite brief (the lecture was mainly about the actual conditions which can lead to ambiguous genitalia etc.) and a long time ago so I wouldn't be confident pretending I know any details, but at least sometimes it's definitely not just psychological/psychiatric.

[randomlegend]

Well this recent campaign to have trans toilets, trans jail cells and all this shit. I was watching the Daily Politics yesterday and the impartial BBC had some 'trans rights' champion on there who was proposing some 30 areas where trans rights should be introduced, along with that thing, Kelly Maloney. So you definitely got the usual balance, which I love. And worst of all, the Aussie feminish whose name escapes me being harangued by the feminazi and left wiong mob for saying, rightly, that a man who has become a 'woman' is not really a woman.

I think trans toilets are proper lol, but you can see why trans prison cells or people being placed in a prison which doesn't match their legal gender could be sensible for reasons of safety.

[QE Harold Flair]

I suspect you'll ignore this, but we had a really interesting lecture about some of this stuff from a paediatric endocrinologist who said that in many (not all) cases where people have these feelings - particularly from a young age from what I remember - there actually are underlying physiological issues.

It was quite brief (the lecture was mainly about the actual conditions which can lead to ambiguous genitalia etc.) and a long time ago so I wouldn't be confident pretending I know any details, but at least sometimes it's definitely not just psychological/psychiatric.

I'm not sure why you'd address that to me but you seem to be endorsing what I say - there are underlying phychological issues. It seems you come to a different conclusion about what that means, but to me that supports what I say.

[randomlegend]

I'm not sure why you'd address that to me but you seem to be endorsing what I say - there are underlying phychological issues. It seems you come to a different conclusion about what that means, but to me that supports what I say.

physiological =/= psychological

[QE Harold Flair]

I think trans toilets are proper lol, but you can see why trans prison cells or people being placed in a prison which doesn't match their legal gender could be sensible for reasons of safety.

Possibly, but you wonder how we got to 2016 without it being much of an issue.

[QE Harold Flair]

Oh right, well what were those issues? Except for hermaphrodites, what physiological issues would make one want to rearrange their genitals? It sounds a lot more physchological to me. And as my mate tobes has said - what about people who want to remove their limbs? We don't allow that, do we? My main gripe is that it's state funded. If you want to lop your cock off, be penertrated by confused sexual deviants and wear a fancy wig, then by all means, go ahead - I shouldn't have to pay for it.

[randomlegend]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

You're a wikipedia fan, right?

[QE Harold Flair]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

You're a wikipedia fan, right?

When something is a fact, certainly.

[QE Harold Flair]

Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital (http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/profiles/results/directory/profile/0003340/paul-mchugh) and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

I guess we can all appeal to authority.

[randomlegend]

I wasn't trying to "appeal to authority", I don't know why you have to be such a dickhead about it. I was just trying to potentially give another side of the story...y'know, have a discussion. Like grown up human beings.

Having said that, some of that research seems to present some fairly indisputable evidence so I'd be inclined to come down on that side of the fence, but as I said I don't know enough about it.

Also, psychiatrists are (without fail) completely mad.

[randomlegend]

sometimes it's definitely not just psychological/psychiatric.

And yes I'm sure you're going to quote this - perhaps I shouldn't have come across so certain - but it's what I believe based on what I've been taught and have read. As I said, I'm no expert.

[QE Harold Flair]

I wasn't trying to "appeal to authority", I don't know why you have to be such a dickhead about it. I was just trying to potentially give another side of the story...y'know, have a discussion. Like grown up human beings.

Having said that, some of that research seems to present some fairly indisputable evidence so I'd be inclined to come down on that side of the fence, but as I said I don't know enough about it.

Also, psychiatrists are (without fail) completely mad.


Well you used what an expert said to you as evidence and then pointed me to wikipedia. I know very well the majority concensus is pointing towards the 'progressive' view, but that's just how things are going in general. This is not a settled issue, as I have demonstrated.

I wasn't going to quote that part but, yes, it did give the impression of it being a settled issue. When people's lives are at stake and, more importantly, my money - we should be sure of the science before we allow people to spend my money having their penis removed.

[randomlegend]

I pointed you to wikipedia because it had a good article citing (what appears to be) good evidence and just generally being a better source than my vague "err from what I remember like hormone sensitivity and shit". I wasn't trying to score an e-victory.

I'm not sure how you have 'demonstrated' it to be wrong either. Citing one psychiatrist saying all the physical evidence and research is wrong doesn't seem to demonstrate much to me to be honest.

[QE Harold Flair]

Well I demonstrated an opposing view from at least one expert in the field. There are many more, of course. So no, it's not a settled issue or anywhere near it, as I'm sure you must know.

[randomlegend]

Well post something which actually disputes the research evidence, rather than just "this guy says it's wrong" and you have a point.

[QE Harold Flair]

Isn't he, by default, criticising that evidence?

[randomlegend]

Saying "it's wrong" isn't a legitimate criticism of evidence :D

I can't see anything which actually explains away the findings in that article.

[QE Harold Flair]

Saying "it's wrong" isn't a legitimate criticism of evidence :D

I can't see anything which actually explains away the findings in that article.

He does go into a little more detail than that. But yes, it's an article. I'm sure he knows of the evidence and research given his credentials and has come to the conclusion that it's not up to scratch. Further to this - what do you say to people who say it's the right thing to do to cut someone's limb off if they want it to be cut off?

[Chrissy]

Look, what i want to know is what did Hitchens have to say about this. Harold, your move, I await your clips in earnest.

[QE Harold Flair]

Look, what i want to know is what did Hitchens have to say about this. Harold, your move, I await your clips in earnest.

If there's one person improving the experience of you and others in this thread, it's you.

[QE Harold Flair]

You won't hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.
We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.
It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

So that's a few studies right there. Full article:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

[Chrissy]

If there's one person improving the experience of you and others in this thread, it's you.

It is very hard to take this thread and the subject seriously when it's entire existence is down to your obsession with "what is wrong with the world/intolerance of difference" to deflect from yourself.

Posting bullshit on a baithunt on this forum is not only tedious it's is just a symptom of your underlying need for conflict and affirming your own self worth through it.

[randomlegend]

Further to this - what do you say to people who say it's the right thing to do to cut someone's limb off if they want it to be cut off?

I find it hard to imagine what the underlying phsyiological reason for that could be - contrary to transgender people where it's pretty easy to suggest what reasons there at least might be - but I'd make some effort to find out more about it before I started making any bold claims.

[QE Harold Flair]

What have I said lately that's touched a nerve :D You're having a good solid go here, aren't you?

I'm not intolerant of 'difference'. I am invariably ther 'differnet' one on this forum, after all. I'm intolerant of my money being wasted on the NHS and people having body parts mangled for no good evidential reason.

[QE Harold Flair]

I find it hard to imagine what the underlying phsyiological reason for that could be - contrary to transgender people - but I'd make some effort to find out more about it before I started making any bold claims.

I suggest so because it is a real condition. It has a medical name (which I forget). The recent link I gave also suggests why there are no physiological reasons for transgender people.

[randomlegend]

Being a real condition with a 'medical' name doesn't mean it's not a psychological condition. Not sure whether I'm understanding your point.

[QE Harold Flair]

Being a real condition doesn't mean it's not a psychological condition. Not sure whether I'm understanding your point.

Oh it is a psychological condition, just as feeling of trangenderism are. Now see, this makes sense to me:


“This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality,” McHugh wrote. “The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”
The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh

[randomlegend]

But again that doesn't actually dispute the research findings in any meaningful way. It just says "it does not correspond with physical reality". That's not an argument.

[randomlegend]

I really can't be bothered. You just make a decision on what makes 'sense' to you, and then anything/anyone which supports it is 'quite excellent' and anything/anyone who doesn't is just dismissed out of hand.

It's pointless.

[QE Harold Flair]

But again that doesn't actually dispute the research findings in any meaningful way. It just says "it does not correspond with physical reality". That's not an argument.

What would ne an argument, then? Seems fine to me. It's not like he just says that in isolation, either. He goes on to cite studies which show, pretty clearly, that surgery may make things worse.

[randomlegend]

To actually address the research and make an argument as to why it's wrong or irrelevant...

If somebody has found real, hard evidence of genetic differences in trans people, you have to make some argument as to why their research isn't valid before you can dismiss it. You can't just say "lolnope" and expect that to be enough.


He goes on to cite studies which show, pretty clearly, that surgery may make things worse.

It's like me saying these studies 'pretty clearly' show physiological differences do exist and so anything you cite is just wrong and that's that. It's stupid.

I'm perfectly willing to accept there are two sides - I suspect in reality it's a mix of factors - but you just dismiss anything which doesn't make sense to you without a second thought.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm sure there are some genetic differences, but even if I accept what you're saying - doesn't the studies listed in that article make you think that surgery might not be the answer? And no, it's nothing like you saying the same thing about the studies on physiology, since they are not studying the outcomes and lives of people. A 30 year study into real people, which shows no real benefit, is surely pretty good evidence?

If it's a 'mix of factors', which it might well be and things usually are, then I don't think surgery is the answer. You're at least partially admitting there are psychcological issues there if you are saying it's a mix of factors. And, as shown above, there is no evidence that surgery makes people have better lives - the evidence appears to be going the other way, if anything.

[randomlegend]

I never said there weren't psychological issues and I never made any claims for surgery. I just disputed your claims that it's definitely all psychological.

[Henry]

Oh dear. Sustained and extreme idiocy of the worst kind.

[Spammer]

I think people can have some mental issues that can lead to wanting to jump on the bandwagon of it, but its probably very rare in the grand scheme of things. The whole identity politics brigade annoy the shit out of me but I don't see what difference it makes if they're 'ill' or not. Its their body and if it makes them happy then whatever. The term 'mental illness' is a metaphor anyway, if you want to be proper pedant about it.

I must say its not something I really understand - and I do want to- but in the grand scheme of things who really gives a shit? The main difference would be in the amount of counselling required before something transitions, but basically its a persons own body to do what they want with. Let em do it.

[QE Harold Flair]

I never said there weren't psychological issues and I never made any claims for surgery. I just disputed your claims that it's definitely all psychological.

I never said it definitely is, that's putting words in my mouth. I think it is in, at the very least, enough cases so as to make surgery not a good option. I mean you don't have to be a phschiatrist to notice that a lot of them are fucking nuts.

[QE Harold Flair]

I think people can have some mental issues that can lead to wanting to jump on the bandwagon of it, but its probably very rare in the grand scheme of things. The whole identity politics brigade annoy the shit out of me but I don't see what difference it makes if they're 'ill' or not. Its their body and if it makes them happy then whatever. The term 'mental illness' is a metaphor anyway, if you want to be proper pedant about it.

I must say its not something I really understand - and I do want to- but in the grand scheme of things who really gives a shit? The main difference would be in the amount of counselling required before something transitions, but basically its a persons own body to do what they want with. Let em do it.

Yes, I agree. Let them do it. Themselves. Not with my money.

[Spammer]

That's the difficulty though. If they physiologically are the wrong gender then they're likely to be a bit weird as a result of the mismatch.

[randomlegend]

I never said it definitely is, that's putting words in my mouth. I think it is in, at the very least, enough cases so as to make surgery not a good option. I mean you don't have to be a phschiatrist to notice that a lot of them are fucking nuts.

You'd be 'nuts' too if you fundamentally believed you were the wrong gender, whether due to an underlying physiological cause or not.

[QE Harold Flair]

Yes, I agree. I do think they are mostly nuts, which is my point.

[Chrissy]

Cards on the table, he has a point. Anyone wanting to lob off bits of their body can't be 100% trusted and must be mentally ill.

This is why Jews are the cause of all the world's problems eh Harold, foreskin cutting bastards.*



*I don't actually think this but I wonder if he does

[randomlegend]

You're either the most dedicated troll in history, or I think you legitimately have something wrong with you. You can't think and understand like normal people, it's quite bizarre.

[Spammer]

I think RM and my points are that if it was in fact an established physiological thing in an individual person, they're likely to behave outside of norms as a result of it, even though the trans feelings are due to physiology.

[Lewis]

You're either the most dedicated troll in history, or I think you legitimately have something wrong with you. You can't think and understand like normal people, it's quite bizarre.

The timer has gone, and you're just about to take a fresh batch of eclairs out of the over. Perfect again, I see. Deeps breaths. This never even happened.

[randomlegend]

I've been doing marshmallows lately, they are good fun.

[Lewis]

I don't like those. Sorry.

[randomlegend]

You'd like these. Trust.

[Toby]

I find it hard to imagine what the underlying phsyiological reason for that could be - contrary to transgender people

Couldn't it just be much the same? Just that at some point in the process of their development a disassociation formed between their mental identity and physical body? I can certainly see how if transgenderism were physiological, BIID could be too, but obviously I don't have much medical knowledge.

[phonics]

It's like he's drunk but 100% of the time.

[Lewis]

I would rather you made me something with white chocolate in.

[randomlegend]

I don't see what actual physiological issue there could be though. You have to 'develop' a gender based on responses to hormones and stuff, I can see how if that process went wrong and your physiology didn't match your physical gender that could lead to issues with gender identity.

It doesn't seem obvious to me what physiological process could go wrong which could create a mismatch between physiology and physical expression in the same way with the people who want limbs off. Perhaps some sort of nervous system problem, I don't know.

[randomlegend]

I would rather you made me something with white chocolate in.

I'm not a fan of white chocolate but I'll do it for you mate.

[Toby]

I don't see what actual physiological issue there could be though. You have to 'develop' a gender based on responses to hormones and stuff, I can see how if that process went wrong and your physiology didn't match your physical gender that could lead to issues with gender identity.

It doesn't seem obvious to me what physiological process could go wrong which could create a mismatch between physiology and physical expression in the same way. Perhaps some sort of nervous system problem, I don't know.

Fair enough. It's something I've found fascinating since first reading that Medium article I posted on the previous page, but actual research into it seems to be very thin on the ground. I don't think it's even recognised as a real condition yet, psychological or otherwise.

[Yevrah]

Most things in life I understand the reasons for and said reasons are pretty obvious. This, however, is one area I don't understand for shit, and I doubt many other people do too.

[QE Harold Flair]

Cards on the table, he has a point. Anyone wanting to lob off bits of their body can't be 100% trusted and must be mentally ill.

This is why Jews are the cause of all the world's problems eh Harold, foreskin cutting bastards.*



*I don't actually think this but I wonder if he does

Well yes, religious belief which insists that cutting and mutilating body parts is also a mental disorder. Agreed.

[randomlegend]

Well yes, religious belief which insists that cutting and mutilating body parts is also a mental disorder. Agreed.

What mental disorder is it? Because I imagine you'd say it was a delusion, which literally by definition it isn't.

[QE Harold Flair]

What mental disorder is it? Because I imagine you'd say it was a delusion, which literally by definition it isn't.

I'm not sure it has a name but there's no reason why anyone should be hacking away at the penis of a baby unless they have a problem with thinking critically. I'm sure you'd agree with me that the true, believing members of the Westboro baptist church are not mentally stable?

[Lewis]

Those sort of people are not so much mentally unstable as looking to rectify aimlessness and inadequacy with monomaniacal notions of certainty.

[QE Harold Flair]

Those sort of people are not so much mentally unstable as looking to rectify aimlessness and inadequacy with monomaniacal notions of certainty.

Wouldn't it take a similar certainty to think it a good idea to hack at a child's penis?

[Spammer]

Wouldn't it take a similar certainty to think it a good idea to hack at a child's penis?

I guess a difference is that the subculture that does circumcision is a lot bigger, so it's easier to sink into that environment and just accept it as the done thing.

Not defending it, at all btw.

[QE Harold Flair]

Obviously it's a more accepted delusion but it's still, when you think about it, fucking mental.

[Spammer]

The vast majority of things are mental when you take it out of context. It's the context that gives understanding to it.

I do agree though, but I think the world is moving in a direction away from that kind of stuff, in general. Give it another 100 years and there'll be much less of it, I reckon.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm not sure what context has to do with this. The context it is in is the mental bit, which is the whole point.

[Henry]

The definition of "ill" is probably what's at issue here. That's a category that's fairly arbitrary, particularly when it comes to mental health.

Is biting my nails a mental condition? Disliking some foods? Liking blondes over brunettes?
All of these things arise because of mental condition. Whether they're categorised as "illness" is a value judgement.

[randomlegend]

I'm not sure it has a name but there's no reason why anyone should be hacking away at the penis of a baby unless they have a problem with thinking critically. I'm sure you'd agree with me that the true, believing members of the Westboro baptist church are not mentally stable?

I think it shouldn't be allowed, but the fact people believe in it is not a delusion and is not mental illness. It's a product of their cultural context - if you are taught something is true from childhood and come to fundamentally and completely believe that, then it's hardly surprising you are willing to follow through with it. That's not mental illness, that's normal human behaviour.

Part of the definition of a delusion is that they are out of line with the cultural context in which they exist.

[QE Harold Flair]

I think it shouldn't be allowed, but the fact people believe in it is not a delusion and is not mental illness. It's a product of their cultural context - if you are taught something is true from childhood and come to fundamentally and completely believe that, then it's hardly surprising you are willing to follow through with it. That's not mental illness, that's normal human behaviour.

Part of the definition of a delusion is that they are out of line with the cultural context in which they exist.

Fine, their culture perpertuates delusional beliefs, then. It's still a delusion.

'an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.'

That's the first definition which came up, and says nothing about culture. If someone was was born and raised in the David Koresh cult, his beliefs (and therefor himself) would still be delusional, regardless of whether the culture in which he was brought up promelgated those beliefs.

[randomlegend]

From a psychiatry textbook "...it cannot be explained by the patient's cultural, religious or educational background".

[Chrissy]

I think what Harold is trying to tell us all is that he is in fact a humanist and believes any actions that cause physical harm are by definition wrong, regardless of context?

[Spammer]

Well I agree with that. Religion is a delusion imo, but it's no good to go around banging on about it as it just upsets people. Best to let it die out over a period of generations.

[QE Harold Flair]

From a psychiatry textbook "...it cannot be explained by the patient's cultural, religious or educational background".

So in that case people born into the example Koresh cult aren't delusional? Nonsense.

[Lewis]

Fine, their culture perpertuates delusional beliefs, then. It's still a delusion.

'an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.'

That's the first definition which came up, and says nothing about culture. If someone was was born and raised in the David Koresh cult, his beliefs (and therefor himself) would still be delusional, regardless of whether the culture in which he was brought up promelgated those beliefs.

:gs:

[Byron]

Fuck sake :D

[John Arne]

Textbooks, eh.

[7om]

Amazing.

[phonics]

Fine, their culture perpertuates delusional beliefs, then. It's still a delusion.

'an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.'

That's the first definition which came up, and says nothing about culture. If someone was was born and raised in the David Koresh cult, his beliefs (and therefor himself) would still be delusional, regardless of whether the culture in which he was brought up promelgated those beliefs.

That would confirm that, yes, you are indeed mentally ill.

[QE Harold Flair]

I think Lewis tried that one earlier.

[Lewis]

I told him to just :D my post, so I'm not sure how he's made such a mess of that.

[QE Harold Flair]

It's okay, I think he might be mentally ill. He had an actual, real-life breakdown at some words I wrote:

http://i64.tinypic.com/27xnzq1.jpg

[phonics]

And yet I'm still one of the only reasons you're not permanently banned. I must be mentally ill.

[QE Harold Flair]

Banned for what? Holding opinions you don't like? Like I said, it's like a modern uni in microcosm.

[Boydy]

I'm so glad we have that Harold-free safe space subforum that he can't see.

[Reg]

And to think we've already got four threads on Hitchens in there!

[phonics]

Banned for what? Holding opinions you don't like? Like I said, it's like a modern uni in microcosm.

Nah you're just a thick (and/or a genuine nutter) cunt that most of this forum cannot be bothered with and feel this place is better without you. Before your last timeout I'd get a report email from various users every other post asking to be done with you.

I argued that without this place you'd start bombing mosques so you get to stay if you manage not to break the pretty simple rules that have been stated to you 900 times over.

Thanks.

[QE Harold Flair]

Nah you're just a thick (and/or a genuine nutter) cunt that most of this forum cannot be bothered with and feel this place is better without you. Before your last timeout I'd get a report email from various users every other post asking to be done with you.

I argued that without this place you'd start bombing mosques so you get to stay if you manage not to break the pretty simple rules that have been stated to you 900 times over.

Thanks.

Funny how my threads have garnered multi-page repsonses, then. What you argued is wrong, as usual.

Explain to me what rule was broken in the above example, for which you attempted to give me 10 points. I simply stated an opinion you didn't like. Nothing more, nothing less. Thanks!

[phonics]

I wanted to go out in a blaze of glory but wasn't allowed.

[SvN]

For your information Harold, you were allowed back early. You clocked up about 6 months worth of bans with all of your aliases, which are against the rules.

[Magic]

Right Harold, that's it.

1...2...2 and a half...!

[Byron]

Best thing is you are exactly spot on Magic. No one wants him here, no one would care if he was punted and yet all we get is umming and ahhing and the same collection of shit threads over and over.

[QE Harold Flair]

Best thing is you are exactly spot on Magic. No one wants him here, no one would care if he was punted and yet all we get is umming and ahhing and the same collection of shit threads over and over.

Well it's nice that you claim to speak on behalf of everyone, and if you don't like my threadsa, don't visit them. How many more times must this obvious point be made?

You must be some kind of masochist. You claim to hate my threads but come in to the thread you know you will hate to complain that you're hating it. You are either a masochist or a fucking idiot.

[Disco]

I love the way Harold thinks it's because his views outrage us so, like the searing truths are too much for us to handle. Rather than what's actually happening which is that he posts like an infantile prat.

[QE Harold Flair]

I love the way Harold thinks it's because his views outrage us so, like the searing truths are too much for us to handle. Rather than what's actually happening which is that he posts like an infantile prat.

The proof is in that picture I posted a few posts up. Look at what I was warned for. Nothing more than an opinion based on fact.

[Disco]

Well done.

[QE Harold Flair]

Can't be refuted, can it? Good post, though.

[Lewis]

Too true. If you don't like the threads, don't visit them. Now, here's why I don't care what anybody here thinks...

[QE Harold Flair]

I don't. I don't see how that's contradicted. It's just an extremely obvious point, and if people are going to hand me easy victories then I'll snaffle them up.

[Disco]

Can't be refuted, can it? Good post, though.

As ever you missed the point completely but it's ok because I don't think there's anything I care less about than this.

[QE Harold Flair]

As ever you missed the point completely but it's ok because I don't think there's anything I care less about than this.

Your point was that I thought it was because my views 'outraged people so' and you didn't think that was the reason. I posted a very clear example of this, which hasn't yet been refuted.

[Disco]

That's amazing, you're still missing it. :D

I have to applaud you if this is an act, it's very convincing and well nuanced.

[QE Harold Flair]

That's amazing, you're still missing it. :D

I have to applaud you if this is an act, it's very convincing and well nuanced.


I love the way Harold thinks it's because his views outrage us so, like the searing truths are too much for us to handle. Rather than what's actually happening which is that he posts like an infantile prat.

There's nothing I've missed. Your 'point' was as I said it was. Now explain to me what, in that post I was warned for, is so infantile?

[Disco]

Why? It's not like you'd learn or take anything on board.

[SvN]

I don't think you understand the nature of that warning, Harold.

[QE Harold Flair]

Why? It's not like you'd learn or take anything on board.

No, you made an accusation. Back it up.

[QE Harold Flair]

I don't think you understand the nature of that warning, Harold.

I understand it very well. It was someone who can't handle a different view about modern feminism getting emotional and losing control. As was admitted by the fact it was rightfully rescinded when reviewed.

[SvN]

Wrong. But never mind, I'll leave you to it.

[QE Harold Flair]

He even admitted it himself. More than once.

[phonics]

You really can't read.

[QE Harold Flair]

Well it's all very nice with you and others making such claims but you never back it up. The evidence is overwhelmingly showing what I said it does.

You said previously that you are 'sick of me'. That's great, but not a reason to warn anyone. It is, like I said, a loss of control, which you admitted.

[Toby]

He owns the board, so being personally sick of you seems as good a reason as any to fuck you off. This isn't some public service wherr you're entitled to perfect transparency - if people don't like you they're well within their rights to ban you. The rules are just there for guidance.

[QE Harold Flair]

That would be fine, as long as he didn't claim to be any kind of liberal or someone who supports free speech.

At the end of the day, the post which drove him over the edge isn't even particularly controversial. Very strange.

[phonics]

That would be fine, as long as he didn't claim to be any kind of liberal or someone who supports free speech.

At the end of the day, the post which drove him over the edge isn't even particularly controversial. Very strange.

Free spech is given to you by your government. Not a private enterprise, we've done this.

Two, you've still managed to miss SvN's point.

[QE Harold Flair]

Explain what his point is, then. Because I don't think I have.

[Toby]

That would be fine, as long as he didn't claim to be any kind of liberal or someone who supports free speech.

:lol:

Fucking hell.

[phonics]

Explain what his point it, then. Because I don't think I have.

Considering you were let back early having racked up months worth of bans, it might be worth thinking about your tone and the manner of your posting.

[QE Harold Flair]

:happycry:

Yet again, there's nothing about the 'tone' or 'manner' of that post that anyone (without an agenda) could possibly object to.

[Lewis]

Free spech is given to you by your government.

Mate... No. Mate.

[Boydy]

690547587347320832

Uhh...

[QE Harold Flair]

A victory for the progressives!

[niko_cee]

In fairness, it's the only way some of the womens' track and field records are going to be broken.