U.S. Presidential Election 2016 (Sponsored by Betty Croker's Hamburger Helper)

[Offshore Toon]

We're all shit wankers now so let's just be at peace with that.

[Lewis]

You lot are, but me, Pepe, and Yevrah are still sound.

[Pepe]

This forum needs a civil war.

I wonder who would win in a left vs right fight.

The right has Lewis and Floyd's bodyguards. There is also mert who could fall over someone. The right has RL, phonics, and Magic. Is Lofty still around?

[Spikey M]

The Centrist Ultra's to wade in and knock both sets of reactionary cunts out.

[Offshore Toon]

You lot are, but me, Pepe, and Yevrah are still sound.
You've all lost it as well, I'm afraid.

[phonics]

I wonder who would win in a left vs right fight.

The right has Lewis and Floyd's bodyguards. There is also mert who could fall over someone. The right has RL, phonics, and Magic. Is Lofty still around?

Didn't know you subscribed to horseshoe theory.

[bruhnaldo]

#CentristUltras

[Spoonsky]

John McCain, American hero?

Collins and Murkowski are brave as fuck too.

[Boydy]

It's been all systems go on the plebs having a pop at him since at least the election.

Proddy boys gotta stick together.

Cause that's bullshit. No matter what way you engage him, he acts like a cunt.

[Offshore Toon]

Aye, GS has reckoned he's a bit good since Lewis, Jimmy and Yev started bigging him up, but he's always been shit. Now he's really shit but with arrogance to go with it. Has he still not had a wank?

[mikem]

Republicans should be so pissed at Trump and thankful for McCain. Instead of being out there making the case for repeal over the last two weeks, Trump:

Congratulated his high quality super transparent son.
Picked a fight with his Attorney General who he tried to pressure into quitting.
Called for investigations into people he beat that nobody cares about anymore.
Had a bizarre interview with the NYT where he did explain insurance. Sadly, it was life insurance.
Introduce the Mooch to start a very unGeorge Smiley style mole hunt.
Encourage said Mooch to accuse his Chief of Staff of being a criminal leaker.
Introduce a transgender ban the military kicked the following day because liberals / wedge.
Had a press event with the victims of Obamacare, who have legitimate grievances, and use the time to talk about his election victory.

What did McCain do? Take the blame for a bill failing where at least 10 out of the 49 Senators who voted for it said "I'm passing this on the condition it does not become law."

[Magic]

I'd still love to dance on his cancerous grave, though.

[Magic]

Lol Prince gone.

[John]

There's an interesting sidenote on the Fandango stuff which will probably be booted to the one side by Plebus resigning. If he thought he was off record when speaking to the BBC bloke, or was even just stupid enough to not consider on/off record when speaking to a reporter, then what did he think he was doing? If he was talking about internal White House issues while functionally anonymous, wouldn't that be leaking?

[ItalAussie]

That.. didn't even occur to me. :D

[Spoonsky]

http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/344395-scaramuccis-wife-files-for-divorce

What?

This is all so bizarre.

[Lewis]

I didn't even know who 'Reince Priebus' was until today, but apparently this is serious.

[John]

Lol at calling his wife a civilian. :D

He's in good nick for fifty three though. I had him down as a Martin Shkreli type superbro.

[Magic]

Deirdre Ball. Nice to have a normal name for a change.

[John]

888442616051671040

Perfect.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've long since lost track of who anyone is/why I should care. I liked Sean Spicer. You knew where you were with him.

[Boydy]

http://i.imgur.com/QifJ4NM.gif

[mikem]

I had no idea that Trump actually proposed the transgender ban on the 69th anniversary of Truman formally integrating the military. He did not either, I'd imagine. How many of the concern trolling "unit cohesion" arguments are just updated "but the Negro ...."?

[Disco]

The unit would get over it.

[McAvennie]

The unit would get over it.

Love the West Wing quote

[Spoonsky]

Scaramucci removed as communications director.

lol

[Lewis]

He was probably too much of a legend.

[-james-]

The Mooch is gone. I wonder if Donny sits behind his big desk when he tells people they're fired.

[GS]

What the fuck.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm with Lewis on this, I don't think Trumpers could handle not being the biggest alpha male on site.

Proper sitcom character, the Mooch. Like Jean-Ralphio with a degree.

[bruhnaldo]

Well this is concerning.

[John]

He's burning through staff at a ridiculous rate. Supposedly Sessions is on the way out too, and he's considering binning Mueller for not being loyal enough.

Good to see my Kid Rock tip from before the election coming good too. It's not a supreme court nomination, but he's getting involved in politics so I'm counting it as a win.

[Raoul Duke]

This is probably a good thing in the longer-term, but it'll mean this season of the Donald Trumpet Comedy Roadshow is a bit less amusing. This guy was a weapons grade bellend though.

[GS]

He was amazing entertainment value, which is all I'm interested in unless The Donald decides to nuke somewhere.

[Raoul Duke]

He was basically Malcolm Tucker if he was from NYC.

[GS]

Exactly. How could you find him funny?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Tucker had a bit of substance and moral fibre, which I'm not sure this guy does.

[Shindig]

'Members of The Fall that were also in the Trump Administration' will soon be a wikipedia page.

[Boydy]

Proper sitcom character, the Mooch. Like Jean-Ralphio with a degree.

:D

This is such a shame.

[Spoonsky]

Yes, he'll be missed.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/31/politics/white-house-officials-tricked-by-email-prankster/index.html


Fake Priebus wrote back: "I can't believe you are questioning my ethics! The so called 'Mooch', who can't even manage his first week in the White House without leaving upset in his wake. I have nothing to apologize for."

Actual Scaramucci responded: "Read Shakespeare. Particularly Othello. You are right there. My family is fine by the way and will thrive. I know what you did. No more replies from me."

[ItalAussie]

Highlights of his WSJ interview

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/trump-wsj-interview?utm_term=.biWq33vV5#.tng6EEgWP

He's actually senile. There's no other explanation for it.

[Shindig]

He could just be a massive narcissist. If he was senile, he'd forget he was ever there.

[John]

Senility isn't a light switch.

Any time he talks about GDP I'm just reminded of his campaign speech in which he said America had a GDP of 'less than zero'. Has he ever clarified what he means when uses the term GDP? If he's describing it with percentages and negative numbers he obviously isn't using it correctly.

[John Arne]

To be fair GDP changes (year on year) are almost always talked about in percentage change. That's not to say that he doesn't really understand what he is talking about.

[Bartholomert]

Highlights of his WSJ interview

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/trump-wsj-interview?utm_term=.biWq33vV5#.tng6EEgWP

He's actually senile. There's no other explanation for it.

He's just an ADD narcissist with weird speech patterns. That wasn't really that bad.

[phonics]

He's got dementia mert. Just face it.

[Bartholomert]

He's got dementia mert. Just face it.

Tbh I'm more aligned with Pence ideologically so, God Forbid, if Trump did have a medical condition, the country would be in safe hands.

[phonics]

Only thing keeping me going is Trumps incompetent ass making it hard for the GOP to govern. Long may his retardedness reign.

[Henry]

Pence is scum.

[bruhnaldo]

so we getting our hot takes from buzzfeed today?

[ItalAussie]

so we getting our hot takes from buzzfeed today?

It's a nice highlights package of the interview. You can just go to the original at WSJ if you want.

[John]

The transcripts from his call with the Australian PM are quite good.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGUKmIcUwAAnAax.jpg

They were from Kyrgyzstan of Chechen descent, so they're both wrong.

[Magic]

Russia disagrees.

[phonics]

It's a nice highlights package of the interview. You can just go to the original at WSJ if you want.

You can't actually. WSJ didn't put out a transcript so Politico uploaded their copy.

[John]

Typing 'WSJ transcript' into Google still returns the correct transcript as the first result so that's a bit of a distinction without a difference.

[John]

893207016524656643

Sean Spicer trying to cc people into a tweet somehow just seems absolutely correct.

[Bernanke]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGQUYDxVwAAcGN9.jpg:large

Lamest duck.

[Henry]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/04/full-transcript-of-trumps-phone-call-with-australian-prime-minister-malcolm-turnbull?CMP=fb_gu

Worth a read.

[phonics]

I recommend using this instead, it has linkable highlights and stuff. First piece of well designed digital text I've seen in a while.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/politics/australia-mexico-transcripts/?utm_term=.a573c03207d3

[Bernanke]

They are not going to be wonderful people who go on to work for the local milk people.

He really is just an old, racist Fox viewer.

[phonics]

I like to think that's what Donald just calls white people now.

[Mazuuurk]

How has someone gotten a hold of that transcript?

Is it common practice to record and transcribe phone calls like that?

[Mazuuurk]

Just read this


Trump: What is the thing with boats? Why do you discriminate against boats? No, I know, they come from certain regions. I get it.


Discriminate against Boats.
I just fucking.

Boats :D

[bruhnaldo]

Context would be dope I guess.

[phonics]

The word-for-word transcript of the entire conversation is posted twice on this very page.

My personal favourite is the Boston Bombers bit

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGV7AB9UwAAEk-W.jpg:large

[Kikó]

Hard to argue against that though. They are where they were.

[phonics]

12 dimensional logic.

[Mazuuurk]

Context would be dope I guess.

Read the thing then. But in a gist: Turnbull keeps talking about how they will accept anyone who doesn't come by boat in the country (the whole world knows the thing with Australia and boats by now). Trump doesn't get it.

[bruhnaldo]

Guess I need to read up on Australia and boats.

[Disco]

I wish these transcripts included sighs because it looks like there would have been quite a few.

[bruhnaldo]

So reading the transcript bit about the boats. What is wrong with what he said? I'm seriously asking. Turnbull kept saying they won't take anyone by boat, Trump asked why?

Is he supposed to know why beforehand? If so, then sure I get that, but it's not as if "discriminate" was improperly used in that sense?

[mugbull]

So reading the transcript bit about the boats. What is wrong with what he said? I'm seriously asking. Turnbull kept saying they won't take anyone by boat, Trump asked why?

Is he supposed to know why beforehand? If so, then sure I get that, but it's not as if "discriminate" was improperly used in that sense?

I think that one was Maz not knowing English properly

[Henry]

How has someone gotten a hold of that transcript?

Is it common practice to record and transcribe phone calls like that?

It would be within the White House, but they've obviously been leaked from there.

[GS]

'...fire and fury like the world has never seen before.'

So nuclear weapons, presumably. This will be fun.

[Magic]

'...fire and fury like the world has never seen before.'

So nuclear weapons, presumably. This will be fun.

The world has seen that, and also Napalm carpet bombing.

I wonder if he means accelerated global warming?

[GS]

Little Boy and Fat Man are relatively mundane compared to some of the weapons the Americans have now.

Presumably if the North Koreans have indeed nailed the miniaturisation process to fit the warhead onto an ICBM, you're into a new phase where a few sanctions isn't going to cut it.

[mikem]

Or, just possibly, nothing he says means anything?

[GS]

It's bluster, obviously, but it's not like it changes the fact that the basic rules of the game have changed - if they've miniaturised the warhead, that is.

[Boydy]

I was listening to a podcast the other day about what war with North Korea would look like and it was fucking terrifying. It was a BBC radio show. I'll see if I can find a link, it's worth a listen.

EDIT: Here we go
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p029399x/episodes/downloads

[mikem]

After the healthcare debate, I've stopped thinking anything Trump says is designed to do anything but move the news cycle for a day.

[Lewis]

It's a decent bet to lean towards the more conservative assessments of North Korean nuclear capabilities. I read SIXTY NUKES earlier, with another geezer claiming twenty at best. I think people read that and imagine loads of them lined up and ready to be launched into San Francisco (possibly not a bad thing), but most of whatever they have will be massive and effectively useless (unless he wants to blow himself up), and lobbing missiles into the sea is a million miles away from having them as the basis of a worthwhile nuclear capability.

[John]

The world has seen that, and also Napalm carpet bombing.

I wonder if he means accelerated global warming?

The nuclear weapons we have now are so much bigger than the ones dropped on Japan that they should probably be called something else. The biggest one ever actually tested was a few thousand times bigger than those two, and that was in the sixties.

[mikem]

Tom Nichols, from the Naval War College, has been making the same point. Showing that you can miniaturize a warhead and demonstrating you can attach it to a missle are separate steps. As is demonstrably being able to launch an ICBM afterwards. It is unlikely they can nuke San Francisco for another couple of years.

The nightmare scenario has always been what can happen conventionally with Seoul, isn't it? And you can add in Trump's inane bluster eventually eroding our deterrence threat. But I can't claim to be up on deterrence theory.

Trump's unsuitability has always been an unwillingness to or simply not caring about calming the country. About this, the new floods in New Orleans, Minneapolis bombing, or anything really.

[John]

The nightmare scenario has always been what can happen conventionally with Seoul, isn't it?

At the moment it is, but if they kit themselves out with working nuclear missiles that changes, obviously.

For now the fact that Seoul is a hundred yards away from the border means they could essentially flatten it. I remember reading something which said current estimates had them able to land some sort of ordinance on every square inch of Seoul within something like two hours of the first shot.

[Lewis]

The nuclear weapons we have now are so much bigger than the ones dropped on Japan that they should probably be called something else. The biggest one ever actually tested was a few thousand times bigger than those two, and that was in the sixties.

The basic distinction is that the Jap[ane]s[e] got whomped with fission weapons (nuclear bombs, or atomic bombs), and the mega ones are fusion weapons (thermouclear weapons, or hydrogen bombs). Unless you have the latter then you're basically a chump, and, although North Korea claimed to have tested one last year, they quite clearly never.

What their artillery can apparently do to Seoul sounds impressive, but I would have thought that 1) a pre-emptive American/South Korean strike would be more than capable of taking a significant proportion of it out simply by raining death all over where they think it might be; 2) what survived would be less effective anyway because of pre-existing supply problems exacerbated by what had just happened; and 3) what did survive and what did work would soon be polished off once it reveals its position (that is if they haven't panic moved it to do some actual defensive work). I'm sure a few Daewoos would get scratched, but the million dead scenario seems a bit far fetched. Chemical weapons are probably the biggest threat, but even they have limited use.

[mikem]

Should have said my semi understanding was that the convential damage was essentially unstoppable because it is mostly automated rockets and missiles. But yeah to the rest.

[ItalAussie]

I have to wonder what the South Korean President thinks of Trump. They've got the most to lose, and Trump's sounding off incoherently like an idiot.

[John]

He hasn't even nominated an ambassador to South Korea yet. I'd be surprised if he knew how close Seoul is to the border. Actually, I'd be a little surprised if he knew there was a land border at all. It goes without saying, but he's just so utterly incompetent at everything the job entails.

Meanwhile, Sebastian Gorka, a military advisor primarily involved with counter terrorism strategy, reckons there's never been a terror attack on US soil which was 'unconnected from ISIS or Al Qaeda'. I wonder whether he thinks Timothy McVeigh was involved with Al Qaeda, or just doesn't know the Oklahoma bomb ever happened.

There's a bit of a developing theme there actually among people Trump gives jobs to. Giuliani is involved with advising the White House on cyber security (a colossal lol on its own) and he reckoned there was never a single Islamist terror attack on US soil until Obama became President. That from the man who was mayor of New York on 11/9.

[ItalAussie]

The Trump jobs thing is pretty simple really. The best way to get a job from Trump is to attach your lips to his ass and never let go. Nothing else matters.

[John]

I said the same thing when Fandango was hired but I'm not so sure now. He stood at the White House podium and said Trump had the best political instincts of all time, could throw a perfect spiral through a tyre and make infinite three point shots, along with about a hundred other deeply absurd compliments, and he lasted not much more than a week.

The problem is his administration is so chaotic it's difficult to find any connective tissue beyond the fact that everyone involved has at some stage been forced to get in front of a microphone and talk about how wonderful Donald Trump is.

[ItalAussie]

Getting hired is, I think, less challenging than staying hired. :D

It is crazy though. You hear all the absurd stories about North Korean officials making ludicrous claims about Kim Jong-Un's achievements, and you laugh at how implausible they are and how stupid they think we are. Then you hear it out of the US, and you start to see how it can happen.

In a country with less structure, Trump would be a tinpot dictator by now. And he'd not see a thing wrong with that.

[John]

I read a load of those 'facts' about Kim Jong-Il while back and some of them are simultaneously so bonkers and so meaningless that you have to wonder what the purpose of them is. You can get behind all the stuff about him being born of a star and never shitting because it's basically just a religious tale, but who decided he invented the hamburger?

Trump's inauguration day lies are no more stupid than North Korea claiming to have won the world cup, I suppose. Actually, less stupid, because the people he's lying to have access to pictures and footage.

[mikem]

Gorka keeps popping up in the news here because he is a total fraud, occasionally wears pins of a Hungarian organization which may be facist, and will say whatever on tv. Last time he popped up it was revealed he has not received any security clearance so he can't actually do any work in his assigned role. Then it was determined that he doesn't actually have an assignment. The connection between the vast majority of admin people is that they are Republican rejects who have glommed onto an administration that has no actual policy agenda and has been in such chaos that they can go about unnoticed. Outside of the generals pretty much the entire Republican foreign policy establishment can't work for Trump because they all signed various letters saying he was unfit during the election.

[John Arne]

I read a load of those 'facts' about Kim Jong-Il while back and some of them are simultaneously so bonkers and so meaningless that you have to wonder what the purpose of them is. You can get behind all the stuff about him being born of a star and never shitting because it's basically just a religious tale, but who decided he invented the hamburger?


I think a lot of those are also completely made up, I'm not why people would make them up - but they clearly are. When I was there, there were certainly more haircuts than that apparent "approved haircut list" - and I'm sure I read somewhere that the golf achievements of Jong-Il originated at some college campus in the us (though I cant find a link now...).

The recent Trump News things, that I thought were a joke, but are actually true, are very similar to the news shows over here - it's so cringe.

[John]

Gorka keeps popping up in the news here because he is a total fraud, occasionally wears pins of a Hungarian organization which may be facist, and will say whatever on tv. Last time he popped up it was revealed he has not received any security clearance so he can't actually do any work in his assigned role. Then it was determined that he doesn't actually have an assignment. The connection between the vast majority of admin people is that they are Republican rejects who have glommed onto an administration that has no actual policy agenda and has been in such chaos that they can go about unnoticed. Outside of the generals pretty much the entire Republican foreign policy establishment can't work for Trump because they all signed various letters saying he was unfit during the election.

Well all of that is much, much worse than what I was lolling at.


I think a lot of those are also completely made up, I'm not why people would make them up - but they clearly are. When I was there, there were certainly more haircuts than that apparent "approved haircut list" - and I'm sure I read somewhere that the golf achievements of Jong-Il originated at some college campus in the us (though I cant find a link now...).

The recent Trump News things, that I thought were a joke, but are actually true, are very similar to the news shows over here - it's so cringe.

The last version of the approved haircut list I remember seeing circulated had about thirty on it. How do you go about remembering whether you've seen more than thirty different haircuts or not? That's not to say I wouldn't believe it's made up, it's such a bonkers yet secretive place that you could make just about anything up and people will buy into it.

The three I mention above are all included in his official state biography, so they're not the result of some whopper making things up to look clever. Now that I think about it, I can't remember if it said he was born of a star, or that his birth was so momentous that the universe created a star in his honour. Either way, it's mad.

[John Arne]

Well all of that is much, much worse than what I was lolling at.



The last version of the approved haircut list I remember seeing circulated had about thirty on it. How do you go about remembering whether you've seen more than thirty different haircuts or not? That's not to say I wouldn't believe it's made up, it's such a bonkers yet secretive place that you could make just about anything up and people will buy into it.

The three I mention above are all included in his official state biography, so they're not the result of some whopper making things up to look clever. Now that I think about it, I can't remember if it said he was born of a star, or that his birth was so momentous that the universe created a star in his honour. Either way, it's mad.

Was it an "approved haircut list", or was it just a photo of a hair salon in North Korea, showing what choices they have available?

We know DPRK is bonkers, but shit stories about haircuts and hamburgers are just a waste of time.

EDIT: That isn't to say that the Star stuff is completely bollocks, of course.

[Magic]

Was it an "approved haircut list", or was it just a photo of a hair salon in North Korea, showing what choices they have available?

We know DPRK is bonkers, but shit stories about haircuts and hamburgers are just a waste of time.

EDIT: That isn't to say that the Star stuff is completely bollocks, of course.

Choice. :harold:

[Henry]

Thankfully, Trumps opinion polling is way down. His "base" seems to be finally eroding.

I could do without a nuclear war, thanks.
But you've got to wonder if in his head, he doesn't really care about Seoul or anything that far away and is willing to sacrifice it for the sake of being able to grandstand for a bit.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Trump's presidency so far is the best advert for not having a presidential system I can think of.

[Disco]

Half the population of one of the most advanced countries on the planet still thinks the earth is twenty minutes old and that Jesus was both real and magic. Claiming to have invented a sandwich seems pretty small beans in comparison.

[John]

Half the population of one of the most advanced countries on the planet still thinks the earth is twenty minutes old and that Jesus was both real and magic. Claiming to have invented a sandwich seems pretty small beans in comparison.

That's sort of my point, it's such a meaningless thing that I can't get my head round why they're bothering to claim it.

[Mazuuurk]

Because Hamburgers are probably what they see as the most typical American Food they can think of, and they probably are just trying to come up with random shit like that that will irk the Americans as much as possible.

Probably works quite well. Trump might launch a nuke for less really.

[Disco]

Credulous people will believe almost anything but if you sprinkle mundane shit inbetween the supernatural bollocks it makes it all the more palatable. This is obviously an extreme and ridiculous case but generally it's designed so idiots believe it all and the more sensible ones discount the most outrageous elements but buy the everyday things that could conceivably be true.

That's how you build a cult if personality.

[bruhnaldo]

Ayyyyyyyyyyy time for a song break


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxgRUyzgs0

[bruhnaldo]

Sidenote this is a fun little bit to play around with:

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

[Bernanke]

The same day as Manaforts house was raided by the feds:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGy0RuzXsAALZU1.jpg

Donnie's getting scared.

[Shindig]

I swear, he's turned twitter into a telegram there.

[John]

There were ten minutes between those first two tweets. It's like he decided the military wasn't accepting something from now on, but hadn't decided what.

895252459152711680

He's efficient, you have to give him that.

[GS]

The usual bores have decided this is an "alarming" thing to lie about. He lies about everything, so I fail to see why this particular lie is somehow worse than anything previous.

The whole thing comes down to the obvious military deterrent of the US. The North Koreans could fire off a missile or two if they really wanted to but, to quote Truman, they could expect a rain of ruin from the air the like of which has never been seen on this earth. They'd be flattened within about a day, and they know it. It would basically be a suicide mission, the equivalent of running at the police with a gun so they shoot you, and you imagine that Kim would be taken out before it came to it.

The idea that, if they were mental enough to go ahead with it, they'd squander that small window to fire weapons by using them against Guam - fucking Guam - is also patently ludicrous.

[mikem]

Time magazine is just trash anymore but this little quiz is fun. Would you qualify for a green card under Cotton & Trump's new proposed point system?

http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4887574/trump-raise-act-immigration/?source=dam

If it keeps all the TTH riffraff out I may just have to change my whole position on immigration.

[Mellberg]

That's fucking obscene. I'm 2 points off.

[Pepe]

If it keeps all the TTH riffraff out I may just have to change my whole position on immigration.

I would qualify.

Impeachment time.

[Lewis]

I miss out by three. I'm not sure what it more lol between bothering to list Nobel Prizes and Olympic medals, or the fact that they don't qualify you on their own.

[mikem]

It is such a ridiculous combination of "can you be a completely average Silicon Valley employee " or "can you compete in the Olympics?"

[John]

I miss out by three. I'm not sure what it more lol between bothering to list Nobel Prizes and Olympic medals, or the fact that they don't qualify you on their own.

How are you missing out? Your doctorate and fluent English alone get you to twenty two points. I qualify but only just. Bang on the minimum points.

The most lol thing about it by the way is that a gold medal in 2008 gets you zero points.

[Lewis]

The higher degrees all specify 'science, technology, engineering, or mathematics', so I only get five points out of that section. I suppose I could try and call myself a 'Social Scientist', but they would be well within their rights to chuck me in Guantanamo Bay for that.

[mikem]

I would qualify.

Impeachment time.

If you are going to qualify, there really is no point to Trump at all is there?

Time to start arming the resistance with more than just pussyhats.

[John]

Trump himself wouldn't qualify unless you give him an 'Excellent' for his English ability, which he absolutely would not get on the test.

[ItalAussie]

I'm in even without a job offer, just. Of course, once I get the Nobel Prize, it's smooth sailing.

(Not that I'd want to live in the US, now or ever)

[Byron]

Time magazine is just trash anymore but this little quiz is fun. Would you qualify for a green card under Cotton & Trump's new proposed point system?

http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4887574/trump-raise-act-immigration/?source=dam

If it keeps all the TTH riffraff out I may just have to change my whole position on immigration.

Thank God the wife has citizenship, as I'm on 27 points, I figured being a white male basically guaranteed me 100 points.

[McAvennie]

24/30, should have worked harder at ski jumping

[Shindig]

21/30. College drop-out. Those questions over income and investment are shocking. "Hi, are you a millionaire? Come to America, please." Makes the land of opportunity look like the land of desperation.

[Magic]

22 for me. I have a professional certification though that surely must count for something.

[Offshore Toon]

Three off. After I good start I thought I had it in the bag and was genuinely considering it.

[Henry]

I have 25 points without a job offer, and I need to get one of those for over $80,000 to get in.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I can't think why anyone (from western Europe, at least) would want to live there anyway.

[Henry]

Agree, the US is nice to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.
I've vaguely thought that I might like to live in Canada at some point. It's got the best things about the US without all of the shit.

[Spikey M]

Canada seems like a great place to live. -40c in the winter would get a bit much though.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Canada sounds so boring to me. At least Australia has decent sport and a decent sky colour, though the upward inflection would do for me in the end.

[mugbull]

Yeah no reason to live in Canada unless you fucking LOVE ice fishing

[ItalAussie]

Canada would be lovely if you like outdoors and winter sport. Montreal is a fantastic city too - one of the best.

[phonics]

Canadians are good people.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This Jacques Villeneuve single suggests otherwise:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BVn5EvRveM

[phonics]

Yeah but Bryan Adams.

[John]

Bryan Adams bought a pub near his house so he could shut it down because he didn't like living near a pub. He's a cunt.

[mikem]

I have 25 points without a job offer, and I need to get one of those for over $80,000 to get in.

Which highlights how silly this is. A job that would qualify you in the Bay Area, Seattle, or New York would disqualify you in Albuquerque, Fayetteville, or Greensboro. The material standard of living would be the roughly the same and any skill shortages are in the latter not the former.

[bruhnaldo]

I would live in Montreal in a heartbeat if I could live in the city. Place is fucking awesome.

I wish I would've been more focused on my studies when I was younger so I could just up and move like that.

[randomlegend]

I wouldn't make it at the moment but would once I qualify (I think). I'm not 100% sure what my degree would count as from the choices given.

[Disco]

This Jacques Villeneuve single suggests otherwise:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BVn5EvRveM

French-Canadian, which says it all really.

[Henry]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/10/in-a-new-poll-half-of-republicans-say-they-would-support-postponing-the-2020-election-if-trump-proposed-it/?utm_term=.1f82e020812d

Half of Republican say that they would let Trump postpone an election. More proof that there's at least a solid 25% of people who are utter morons.

[John]

895970429734711298

For fuck sake.

[phonics]

With their personalities, they'd probably be best buds in any other walk of life.

[Kikó]

They're probably best friends anyway. This is all a bluff until Un announces a new TRUMP hotel in Pyongyang.

[John]

Someone swapped their haircuts round and Trump with Kim Jong-Un's hair is a dead ringer for Louis Van Gaal. Un with Trump's hair looks like the gay best friend in a straight to video romantic comedy sequel.

[John]

http://i.imgur.com/lIuLT0z.jpg

[Jimmy Floyd]

The one on the right is Velma with Freddie's hair, and the one on the left is Shaggy with Scoobie's hair.

[phonics]

Scooby Doo had hair? (outside of him being a dog obviously)

[Disco]

Technically fur.

[ItalAussie]

Honest question - can anyone stop Trump if he starts to really ratchet up the rhetoric? Like, I suppose the military could just not do anything if he orders them, but nobody can stop him taunting North Korea until something gives, right?

[-james-]

I don't really see what's wrong with his North Korea stance. He's just calling their bluff

[Shindig]

Likewise, North Korea sees a weak President and sees potential bargaining opportunities. The longer this states in this tense state, the more likely dissension could come from the North Korean ranks .... possibly. Trump's shown in Syria he's not afraid to retaliate.

[McAvennie]

It's such ludicrous posturing - are n Korea going to nuke s Korea or the us? No, because they will get annihilated.

Are the is going to pre-emptively nuke n Korea? No, because Russia and China will react, and presumably any sane European will think they have lost the plot.

Are the us going to invade to enforce regime change? Hell no, way too costly in manpower and political fallout. Are the us going to cruise missile key sites in n Korea? No, because the stuff that actually counts is too well buried.

That leaves n Korea getting on with doing whatever they want with missile development, and why is that a problem? Are they going to nuke anywhere? No they aren't because they'd get annihilated in retaliation.

If the us really want to stop them the only real route is to get the Chinese to stop them, and how much do the Chinese care? And even if China decided to get punitive with n Korea, at this point I don't see it making a difference.

The biggest risk in all this is Trump thinking that his penis-stroking posturing actually scares the n Koreans, rather than just pushing them toward some knee jerk insanity. Right now he's the biggest risk to global security going.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He's trying to force the Chinese to rein them in because the last thing China wants is 30 million refugees rocking up in Manchuria.

[Boydy]

Why is North Korea such a big enemy these days anyway? They trade with regimes as bad elsewhere in the world.

[mugbull]

I think it's the nuclear stuff, mate

[Lewis]

I'm not sure other countries are 'as bad' as North Korea. They're well out on their own.

[Boydy]

I think it's the nuclear stuff, mate

But the nuclear stuff probably wouldn't be a problem if they weren't frozen out of everything, no?

[Boydy]

I'm not sure other countries are 'as bad' as North Korea. They're well out on their own.

Maybe but let's not pretend they're enemy number one because of concerns about democracy or human rights.

[John Arne]

Also, I'm not sure how the US expects North Korea to act, given the 28,000 US troops stationed 100 miles south of Pyongyang, and the constant military exercises that the US and ROK perform.

Jong-un (and his father, and his father) are clearly dictators, but it terms of building up their military defenses - I can kind of understand the reasons why. Obviously, they don't help themselves on the global scale with the aggressive statements of destroying the US every 10 minutes.

[mugbull]

But the nuclear stuff probably wouldn't be a problem if they weren't frozen out of everything, no?

Well, we (the US) froze them out of everything after the Korean War, so that goes back a long way and you can't let bygones be bygones. In any case, unless you're ISrael, I don't think the West is chill with anyone acquiring capabilities, definitely not a personality cult that starves its people to death.

[Lewis]

Yeah, you can see why they would want them ('Axis of Evil'); but in hindsight they would probably have been better off being 'weaker' and more prone to invasion whilst not having to live with all of the choking sanctions. It's probably a bit too far gone now as well in terms of chucking it in in return for concessions. Oh well.

[Magic]

Well, we (the US) froze them out of everything after the Korean War, so that goes back a long way and you can't let bygones be bygones. In any case, unless you're ISrael, I don't think the West is chill with anyone acquiring capabilities, definitely not a personality cult that starves its people to death.

I read the people in charge of making decisions about Korea after WW2 had to ask where it was on the map.

[Shindig]

It's quite dumb how Korea was split in the first place. Like most partitions.

[GS]

What was the alternative at the time? It's a bit like people complaining that we left eastern Europe to rot behind the Iron Curtain after WWII. What was the alternative?

[Shindig]

I dunno. It just feels like Korea's been the victim of circumstance. Yanks liberating one half, the Soviets taking the other and, as soon as WWII's over, there's a split. You've got to think, at some point the chance of a Berlin-style repatriation could've taken place.
Reading over some of the recent stuff, the North is always seen as the aggressor but neither Korean nation could realistically go it alone.

[GS]

I doubt it. This is evidence of wishful thinking, for lack of a better phrase, as opposed to dealing with the facts as they are.

[Lewis]

I think nuking China and winning the Korean War is the only plausible alternative, and that probably tells you everything you need to know.

[Shindig]

True. Maybe things will come good for North Korea when China runs out of places to build shit. South Korea's already there. Move into that market, Kim.

[Boydy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40912509?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

One person dead after someone rammed a car into a group of counter-protesters to the Nazi rally in Charlottesville.

[Bernanke]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40912509?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

One person dead after someone rammed a car into a group of counter-protesters to the Nazi rally in Charlottesville.

https://i.imgur.com/0nstApg.jpg

Just before it hit.

[GS]

I'm not sure why anybody is surprised at this sort of behaviour. America operates in its own bubble of stupidity at the best of times.

[Lewis]

They should have just left the statue up.

[Giggles]

Wrecked a sexy Dodge Challenger.

[Yevrah]

I'm not sure why anybody is surprised at this sort of behaviour. America operates in its own bubble of stupidity at the best of times.

What, using vehicles to kill people? Because that doesn't happen anywhere else...

[GS]

Lee only sided with the Confederacy because he was more loyal to his home state than the federal government. It's not as if he's John C. Calhoun thinking slavery is the mark of civilisation.

[GS]

What, using vehicles to kill people? Because that doesn't happen anywhere else...

No, I mean the idea of minutemen type characters walking around with AK47s whilst their mates wave Nazi flags.

[Lewis]

The vast majority of militiamen are peaceful, law-abiding citizens, and if you start pointing fingers then you only alienate the more moderate gun-toting freaks.

[Pepe]

At least we don't need to deal with terrorists.

[Magic]

Tbf I'd love to plough a car in to a gathering of UAF cunts.

[mikem]

Lee only sided with the Confederacy because he was more loyal to his home state than the federal government. It's not as if he's John C. Calhoun thinking slavery is the mark of civilisation.

Hilariously you fell for the same bubble of stupidity as lost cause morons.

Here is Lee on slavery:

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.

Here is Lee on what he felt was appropriate for runaway slaves:

Not satisfied with simply lacerating their naked flesh, I then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash their backs with brine, which was done.

He had, as always, administered the beating himself.

Here he is AFTER the Civil War discussing slavery:

that unless some humane course is adopted, based on wisdom and Christian principles you do a gross wrong and injustice to the whole negro race in setting them free. And it is only this consideration that has led the wisdom, intelligence and Christianity of the South to support and defend the institution up to this time.

[mugbull]

Hilariously you fell for the same bubble of stupidity as lost cause morons.

Here is Lee on slavery:

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.

Here is Lee on what he felt was appropriate for runaway slaves:

Not satisfied with simply lacerating their naked flesh, I then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash their backs with brine, which was done.

He had, as always, administered the beating himself.

Here he is AFTER the Civil War discussing slavery:

that unless some humane course is adopted, based on wisdom and Christian principles you do a gross wrong and injustice to the whole negro race in setting them free. And it is only this consideration that has led the wisdom, intelligence and Christianity of the South to support and defend the institution up to this time.

As far as I remember, that lashing and brine story was not supported by any evidence and most people think it's false.

In any case, the argument he made against just setting the blacks free all at once was a nuanced and intelligent one. The problem being, of course, that having no institutional knowledge, no education, and very little real world experience, freed slaves would not be in a much better position to improve their stock than they were before. I remember reading how Lee said that 'real' slavery would immediately be replaced by another form of economic slavery; that is the basis of this 'gross wrong and injustice' that he mentions. Lee wasn't an abolitionist, but I've always viewed him as fairly empathic for a military man.

[mikem]

Just no. Why was that nuanced argument needed?

Or, put it another way, what would you think if the Germans started building statues in 1962 and started arguing about nuance?

My ancestors fought for the Confederacy and I'm sure I would have as well at the time. It would simply have been wrong.

[mugbull]

Re-integration of freed slaves into society would have gone far better than it did if people had been willing to invest more time and money into transitioning an entire minority out of slavery rather than just emancipating everyone and setting up some black colleges.

Not really sure what youre getting at with the German thing. Are you trying to compare the Confederacy to the Nazis? Or Lee to, say, Goring? That was quick.

[mikem]

Re-integration? They were never integrated. It was always going to be ugly. Has it even happened yet completely? But the idea that the people who participated in chattel slavery were offering nuanced plans because they cared about the Negro? Seriously? Wait always means never.

The reference to the Nazis is about the timetable of the statues. They started appearing 18 years after the Civil War as part of the Redemption movement, specifically the Cult of the Lost Cause. It was specifically aimed to end Reconstruction and to rebrand the Confederacy.

Why shouldn't we talk about chattel slavery like the Holocaust? Walk through what slavery was as practiced and ask why we don't either think of it or discuss it. Remember Lee did not even practice Washingtonian slavery; he freely broke up families. There may be degrees of difference but not of kind.

[Lewis]

It just seems a bit selective. If you want to annihilate all monuments to people whose morals fall short by modern standards then fine, but Mount Rushmore is going to look a bit shit.

[mikem]

I don't want to destroy any of them. I think that is a purely municipal matter. I like Baltimore's approach of adding plaques is the best. I think Princeton renaming stuff is insane but universities are going to university. Landrieu's speech won me over for the New Orlean's approach of remove and find museums or society to House them. But I reject the notion that they are the history. At best they are a half telling.

Here is the speech he gave:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t0jQTHis3f4

[GS]

Hilariously you fell for the same bubble of stupidity as lost cause morons.

I'm afraid I don't agree with this, as below.


It just seems a bit selective. If you want to annihilate all monuments to people whose morals fall short by modern standards then fine, but Mount Rushmore is going to look a bit shit.

This is it. You can only assess their views in the context of their time. Lee was far from extreme. So if you're going to engage in historical revisionism by taking down statues etc., it's presumably only a matter of time until Washington D.C. and the state of Washington are renamed given he was a slave owner for most of his life.

[Lewis]

Most (if not all) remembrance is a politicised 'half telling', so I would just hope people can do their own research (which they would if they cared), but I can see how a plaque would work provided it was done properly.

[mugbull]

Re-integration? They were never integrated. It was always going to be ugly. Has it even happened yet completely? But the idea that the people who participated in chattel slavery were offering nuanced plans because they cared about the Negro? Seriously? Wait always means never.

The reference to the Nazis is about the timetable of the statues. They started appearing 18 years after the Civil War as part of the Redemption movement, specifically the Cult of the Lost Cause. It was specifically aimed to end Reconstruction and to rebrand the Confederacy.

Why shouldn't we talk about chattel slavery like the Holocaust? Walk through what slavery was as practiced and ask why we don't either think of it or discuss it. Remember Lee did not even practice Washingtonian slavery; he freely broke up families. There may be degrees of difference but not of kind.

You could be a Southerner and have a nuanced opinion on the matter. Presumably you would want to consider what could happen to Southern society if however many million slaves were freed at once as well as what would happen to the slaves themselves, since both would be important in determining the prosperity of the region. It may not be coming from a place of 'love for the Negroes', but no political consideration has that pure a motive. At the very least it seems obvious that Lee was humanistic and didn't view everything from a lens of profiteering, which is enough for me to not condemn him, even if he wasn't sufficiently convinced of immediate abolition to take a stance as an abolitionist himself. I really don't see what you find revolting about him, other than an apocryphal story of him whipping an escaped slave and the fact that he fought for the South.

Slavery was for the economic benefit of the states that practiced it, while the Holocaust was (mostly) a plan to exterminate. Of course slaves were treated very poorly, that's not a debate, but it had nothing on the Holocaust.

[Danny]

It just seems a bit selective. If you want to annihilate all monuments to people whose morals fall short by modern standards then fine, but Mount Rushmore is going to look a bit shit.

Replace it with Mount Richmore

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uQlKjRScXww/maxresdefault.jpg

[Shindig]

John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Thin Elvis and Fat Elvis.

[mikem]

Most (if not all) remembrance is a politicised 'half telling', so I would just hope people can do their own research (which they would if they cared), but I can see how a plaque would work provided it was done properly.

I agree with all of this but we don't have this conversation around these topics in the South. For example, look at the first statue wharehoused in New Orleans: the Battle for Liberty Place.

We get a debate about honor, duty, and celebrating. But we never have the following discussion:

What was the Battle of Liberty Place?
Um, the battle to overthrow the municipal government by the White League during Reconstruction.

The White League?
Just what you think it is. Also famous for lynching Italians. They got 11 at once in their best ever showing.

What was the original inscription?
Oh, something about white supremacy.

When was it installed?
In the 30's. I may be getting this one wrong. Anything else happening at this time?

That is kind of a fucked up statue. Hint: if you know your local history down south almost all of them are like this. Wait, that statue was actually the Sons of the Confederacy being pissed about busing in '73? Um, yes.

If anyone ever actually looked this up instead of yet another round of state's rights, the paternalism of American slavery, and how the civil war was about agriculture I'd be happy.

[Lewis]

That seems like a conversation you could have about most aspects of how you all came to live in a country founded on displacing and mistreating the natives, and one that is even harder to have by just pretending that these monuments were never put up and revered. That monument (which I'm just reading about) appears to have had an inscription added to it, but it seems like a pretty trivial one beyond it becoming a focal point for plebs, which is another issue.

[ItalAussie]

It just seems a bit selective. If you want to annihilate all monuments to people whose morals fall short by modern standards then fine, but Mount Rushmore is going to look a bit shit.

How's this? The US had a war against them, and they lost. It'd be like you lot having a statue of Napoleon in front of Buckingham Palace.

[Lewis]

I would say it's more like the Scotch/Welsh celebrating people we knocked off, since I imagine the people who want to preserve these monuments still see themselves as Americans.

[Henry]

The problem with contextualisation is that you can use it to mitigate/excuse almost anything. It is possible to both condemn and to understand.

[Lewis]

897235297485901825

The state of these people.

[Spoonsky]

The lad with the guitar giving the best kick of all time.

Where was Mert to defend the statue?

[Offshore Toon]

They're such losers.

[Lewis]

What are you going to re-name the country when Amerigo Vespucci's slave dealings come under the spotlight? McDonaldland is the obvious choice, but Ronald McDonald must have some historic sex offences on his record.

[Bartholomert]

897235297485901825

The state of these people.

Lol. That'll sure fix the problem of unemployment, rampant criminality, children born out of wedlock, illiteracy, etc within the Black community!

[John Arne]

Thoughts on the white supremacist march, Mert?

[ItalAussie]

Hey Mert, when was the last time you posted literally anything at all aside from alt/far-right politics?

You've become one-note, and it's a rubbish note.

[Shindig]

Lol. That'll sure fix the problem of unemployment, rampant criminality, children born out of wedlock, illiteracy, etc within the Black community!

Just going to ignore the white guys with the winch and the white guys who get the kicks in? There's two black guys in the whole of that crowd. That said, tearing down monuments is dumb. Keep that shit there as a reminder of your past. It doesn't have to be celebratory.

[niko_cee]

I was hoping that monument was going to fall on someone, or, at the very least, someone gave it a good going over with a shoe. Alas.

[Spoonsky]

Just going to ignore the white guys with the winch and the white guys who get the kicks in? There's two black guys in the whole of that crowd. That said, tearing down monuments is dumb. Keep that shit there as a reminder of your past. It doesn't have to be celebratory.

If it's a legitimately historical monument, sure, but this 'Confederate Soldier' statue was erected in 1924. I like the idea of putting them in museums.

[John Arne]

If it's a legitimately historical monument, sure, but this 'Confederate Soldier' statue was erected in 1924. I like the idea of putting them in museums.

Caveat: I know nothing about this particular statue.

Is it not the case that this statue represents the soldiers who fought and died for the Confederates? They were Americans - and surely deserve some sort of monument to remember their deaths?
Following on from that, if you make it "bad guys v good guys" or "it happened recently", then surely you would have to remove any monuments to Vietnam vets, also - given that that war was not sanctioned by the UN?

EDIT: Oh god, I somehow find myself on Mert's side. Urgh.

[Bartholomert]

If it's a legitimately historical monument, sure, but this 'Confederate Soldier' statue was erected in 1924. I like the idea of putting them in museums.

What makes a monument historically 'legitimate'? The Founding Fathers are next after they tear down the Confederate monuments, and then where will it stop? You think getting rid of publicly visible monuments will be the point at which the Leftists will say 'okay enough erasing history!'? It will never end, they will never be satisfied.

This monument honored those who died defending their homes. The vast majority didn't own slaves, had no political stake in the war. This is lunacy and mob rule and honestly naked hatred towards Southern White people at this stage. When this sort of behavior is enabled, encouraged, even celebrated by mainstream Democrats, are you surprised that average White people are drifting towards the alt-right? Who is left to defend them and their identity?

[John Arne]

Mert - out of all the shit that happened last weekend - why are you focusing on this one event? What are your thoughts on the White Supremacist (and disgusting chants that were heard) rallies that occurred over the weekend?

[Bartholomert]

Thoughts on the white supremacist march, Mert?

White supremacy is dumb and evil. Identity politics is absolute poison. Fascism is very very far from the conservative principles I believe in. But, those marchers had their rights violated, and the Left shouldn't be surprised that when they operate an agenda on the basis of tribal mobilization of racial / sexual interest groups, eventually White people in America will also mobilize and rent seek in the same fashion.

[Bartholomert]

I've honestly stopped following politics as closely in the last few months with work and all that has been going on. Pretty much everyone is shitty, and you've got like 8 consistently rational people left. I only really listen to Ben Shapiro, and even that on a very intermittent basis (and him I disagree with on a number of points too, but at least he's intellectually honest).

The country is too diverse and there is too much centralized federal power (and the Left will never let the States exercise their own authority if it conflicts with certain necessary cultural capitulations). After my time working in Louisiana I've come to realize more than ever that it's just two entirely different worlds that are deeply irreconcilable. What is taken as undeniable moral truth in New York is seen as unacceptable / incomprehensible moral degeneracy in the South. My prediction would be that White people aren't going to just allow themselves to suffer complete cultural / demographic annihilation without a fight, it's against every human / tribal instinct. I think there will be a war / secession in the coming decades.

[John Arne]

White supremacy is dumb and evil. Identity politics is absolute poison. Fascism is very very far from the conservative principles I believe in. But, those marchers had their rights violated, and the Left shouldn't be surprised that when they operate an agenda on the basis of tribal mobilization of racial / sexual interest groups, eventually White people in America will also mobilize and rent seek in the same fashion.

Genuine question; in what way? I genuinely only saw images of them being allowed to chant and march as they wanted (and be protected by black officers). Was the march eventually shut down before the agreed time?

[John]

It took Trump three days to condemn the white supremacist who drove a car into a crowd, Mert. Does that give you pause as to just what kind of fuckwit you were hailing as the GOD EMPEROR?

[Bartholomert]

Genuine question; in what way? I genuinely only saw images of them being allowed to chant and march as they wanted (and be protected by black officers). Was the march eventually shut down before the agreed time?

They weren't allowed to go through with the event. Right before it started police officers raided the park and declared the event an 'illegal assembly' (which is ludicrous / not something that exists). They were then ushered out to leave the park through a path that went right through the counter-protesters. This is outrageous and every American citizen should be concerned at the way the event was handled. Was this deliberate, did they want a violent clash to occur, or simple incompetence? Who knows. But it happened.

[John]

There were plenty of pictures of them marching around with torches and flags. Whether those were all taken before their 'event' was due to start or not I don't know, but they seemed to get plenty of eventing in either way.

[Bartholomert]

It took Trump three days to condemn the white supremacist who drove a car into a crowd, Mert. Does that give you pause as to just what kind of fuckwit you were hailing as the GOD EMPEROR?

He condemned both sides, which was just, because both sides were violent. Initial reports suggested that the kid who drove the car into a crowd did so because he was in genuine fear for his life and surrounded, and that it wasn't a deliberate premeditated and malicious 'terrorist attack.'

Fascists and communists fighting in the street is a story as old as time. They both suck and should be marginalized from the political discourse, the difference is that there is no public pressure on Democrats to disavow the violence perpetrated by BLM / Antifa / etc, whereas the Right falls over itself to distance itself from white nationalists / supremacists at every opportunity.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Was Hitler a bad man? 'I condemn toothbrush moustaches on all men'.

[Bartholomert]

There were plenty of pictures of them marching around with torches and flags. Whether those were all taken before their 'event' was due to start or not I don't know, but they seemed to get plenty of eventing in either way.

Those were small independent and unrelated groups. The real event with speakers was not allowed to go forward.

[John Arne]

He condemned both sides, which was just, because both sides were violent. Initial reports suggested that the kid who drove the car into a crowd did so because he was in genuine fear for his life and surrounded, and that it wasn't a deliberate premeditated and malicious 'terrorist attack.'


I don't get this comment. Initial reports may have suggested that - however, you have obviously seen the video clip that proves it was completely intentional - so why even try to use it as some sort of justification? Bizarre.

[Bartholomert]

I don't get this comment. Initial reports may have suggested that - however, you have obviously seen the video clip that proves it was completely intentional - so why even try to use it as some sort of justification? Bizarre.

This is a different angle, right before he sped into the crowd, apparently a brick had been thrown through his window right before as well:

https://i.groupme.com/403x194.jpeg.1740444964a14e2d88e16ffe2b56cb84.larg e

Keep in mind the kid didn't resist arrest and immediately gave himself up to the police. Likely he isn't some raging Nazi terrorist, but an autistic disenfranchised white kid who freaked out (which is what a lot of what I'm reading is suggesting happened). It's absolutely manslaughter at the very least, but intent isn't irrelevant here. As with any situation, let's wait until the facts have been established before we rush to judgment. This goes for Nazis as much as it does with any other person.

[John Arne]

They weren't allowed to go through with the event. Right before it started police officers raided the park and declared the event an 'illegal assembly' (which is ludicrous / not something that exists). They were then ushered out to leave the park through a path that went right through the counter-protesters. This is outrageous and every American citizen should be concerned at the way the event was handled. Was this deliberate, did they want a violent clash to occur, or simple incompetence? Who knows. But it happened.

This video (and hundreds more, including from those on the rally) suggests otherwise...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsaPr3GeT9I

So, were they allowed to march, or weren't they? I'll ask the same questions.... Which rights of theirs were violated?

[Bartholomert]

This video (and hundreds more, including from those on the rally) suggests otherwise...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsaPr3GeT9I

So, were they allowed to march, or weren't they? I'll ask the same questions.... Which rights of theirs were violated?

This wasn't the registered event. This was just random dudes walking around (hence there being nearly no counter-protesters) who were eventually told to disperse because it was an illegal assembly and then they did. Peacefully.

Also a lot of those people are not clear-cut Nazis. They are just white people who want to legitimize advocacy for their self-interest in the same way that literally every other group in the US is allowed to do. I disagree with all identity politics and shitty rent-seeking / whining, but from a Leftist paradigm I don't understand why they shouldn't be accepted (aside from double-standard racism against Whites).

[John Arne]

This is a different angle, right before he sped into the crowd, apparently a brick had been thrown through his window right before as well:

https://i.groupme.com/403x194.jpeg.1740444964a14e2d88e16ffe2b56cb84.larg e

Keep in mind the kid didn't resist arrest and immediately gave himself up to the police. Likely he isn't some raging Nazi terrorist, but an autistic disenfranchised white kid who freaked out (which is what a lot of what I'm reading is suggesting happened). It's absolutely manslaughter at the very least, but intent isn't irrelevant here. As with any situation, let's wait until the facts have been established before we rush to judgment. This goes for Nazis as much as it does with any other person.

FAKE NEWS.

Now you are just lying, and you know it. That screen grab is taken from this video, after the crash happened.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mnywjPPDtU

Whereas this video shows that the car appears to be intentionally speeding up (whilst not surrounded by any protestors) towards the crowd. Whilst, we don't know what happened before this, it's pretty clear that the driver is driving along under no duress prior to the incident.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO7I79YJ8ng

[John Arne]

This wasn't the registered event. This was just random dudes walking around (hence there being nearly no counter-protesters) who were eventually told to disperse because it was an illegal assembly and then they did. Peacefully.


Ok, i'll take your word for that - as this event does appear to have taken place a day before the major issues - that said, it is still a group of people chanting extremely racist things (and being allowed to).

[John]

He condemned both sides, which was just, because both sides were violent. Initial reports suggested that the kid who drove the car into a crowd did so because he was in genuine fear for his life and surrounded, and that it wasn't a deliberate premeditated and malicious 'terrorist attack.'

He didn't condemn both sides, he said he wasn't keen on hatred, apparently coming 'from many sides'. It took him three days before he was willing to say he wasn't keen on white supremacists, and even then it was a half hearted, grudging non-statement. There might end up being violence on both sides, but the violence originates in one place. If one group turns up with the rhetoric 'kill all blacks, take the country back' and another one turns up with 'let's not' and a fight breaks out, I don't care who threw the first punch, the first group is much more heavily at fault.

Saying 'fuck Nazis' is such an absolute gimme for a politician that, unless you agree with them on some level, you should be falling over yourself to say it. It took him three days.

[Bartholomert]

Fair enough, I didn't check the source of the image. A friend had posted that in a politics group message we have and I didn't question it.

Maybe it was premeditated terrorism, in which case I support throwing the book at him and having him rot in jail and/or executed. But principles of justice, innocent until proven guilty, still apply and I will wait until the facts are out before rushing to judgment (as I do in every similar circumstance).

[Bartholomert]

He didn't condemn both sides, he said he wasn't keen on hatred, apparently coming 'from many sides'. It took him three days before he was willing to say he wasn't keen on white supremacists, and even then it was a half hearted, grudging non-statement. There might end up being violence on both sides, but the violence originates in one place. If one group turns up with the rhetoric 'kill all blacks, take the country back' and another one turns up with 'let's not' and a fight breaks out, I don't care who threw the first punch, the first group is much more heavily at fault.

Saying 'fuck Nazis' is such an absolute gimme for a politician that, unless you agree with them on some level, you should be falling over yourself to say it. It took him three days.

You are clearly not aware of the rhetoric coming out from the Left against Whites (or conservatives). This event wasn't about being against any group, it was about advocating for White people. There is plenty of violence and hatred on both sides.

How many violent counter-protests do you see at far-left rallies? None. When's the last time you heard of violent rioting in response to a Leftist give a lecture on a college campus? Violence only emerges when those on the right voice their views publicly. If anything the balance and track record of violence is strongly tilted against those on the Left, I am doing a service by conceding some degree of equivalence.

When women or minorities march in favor of their rights, is this advocating for violence against men or Whites? Same principle.

[John]

Whites (or conservatives)

Don't do that.

[Bartholomert]

I would like to re-iterate, that I believe in the righteousness of an identity-blind constitutionally based approach to governance which holds Enlightenment values as supreme. I hate how shitty the alt-right makes conservatives look, and the extent to which it alienates / deligitimizes the Right while energizing the Left. I however advocate for consistent application of certain fundamental principles, regardless of context.

[John]

The man you spent two years hailing as the reincarnation of Christ does far more to delegitimise the Right than any bunch of Nazi fuckwits ever could.

[Bartholomert]

The man you spent two years hailing as the reincarnation of Christ does far more to delegitimise the Right than any bunch of Nazi fuckwits ever could.

Yeh but memes bro

[phonics]

Not a sentence I thought I'd ever say but... I agree with the Evangelist Christian guy from www.theamericanconservative.com

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHRzOWIUIAEXOqN.jpg:large

Full link: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/confederate-nehushtan/

[Pepe]

TAC is pretty good.

[phonics]

TBF, all Chapo's best episodes revolve around reading Rod Dreher articles so I get it.

[Spoonsky]

What makes a monument historically 'legitimate'?

It just seems like it was erected a pretty long time after the fact, but looking into it most of the statues are like that. So who knows. Did you know there's a statue of Lenin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle) in Seattle?

[Spoonsky]

But tell me, because I want to understand this: how is a white kid in the south actually 'disenfranchised?'

[Shindig]

He was disenfranchised with his brakes. That video's horrific. We need the conventional right to bury these fucking keyboard warrior edge lords.

[Pepe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg

[Pepe]

It just seems like it was erected a pretty long time after the fact, but looking into it most of the statues are like that. So who knows. Did you know there's a statue of Lenin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle) in Seattle?

And one of Benito Juarez in Chicago. :cool:

[John]

I saw that video on Facebook earlier. Vice are good at a lot of things, but their content dealing with race relations tends to be a shambles.

[mugbull]

It just seems like it was erected a pretty long time after the fact, but looking into it most of the statues are like that. So who knows. Did you know there's a statue of Lenin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle) in Seattle?

I did an internship like a block away from that statue last summer. There's a homeless guy posted up in front of it at all hours of the day reciting poems and yelling at people, which is a nice foil to Lenin's legacy, I think

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think the best take on this so far has been Gary Lineker tweeting 'Sort yourself out America, you've lost the plot', only to be taken to task in the first couple of replies by both Rodney Marsh and then, separately, Mike 'Porky' Parry (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLWWx2FEzuE).

[Spoonsky]

Interesting: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/

Also, Trump's squad of CEOs has all resigned because of his comments on Charlottesville.

[Lewis]

I've enjoyed all of the blue tick whoppers posting Second World War pictures with 'lol what about these anti-Nazis?' Who knew the British Empire had so many fans?

[Shindig]

Interesting: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/

Also, Trump's squad of CEOs has all resigned because of his comments on Charlottesville.

I'd have opposed any monuments to a war that was very in the public memory at the time those comments were sought.

[GS]

In amongst all the hilarity, the logical extension of all of this is the call to rename Washington D.C. on the grounds he was a slave owner. We should start a pool on when that'll happen.

[Shindig]

If it happens, can we rename Washington, Tyne and Wear to something cooler?

[John]

Lewis mentioned the real logical endpoint on the previous page, with renaming the country because Amerigo Vespucci trafficked in slaves.

[Shindig]

Rename it google and be done with it.

[Lewis]

The person who put the rope around that toppled statue has been busted, and they are allegedly a member of the Workers World Party, which is the communist party over there that openly supports North Korea. So much for satire.