Doping in football

[Toby]

According to Arsene Wenger, football has a major doping problem.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/10/arsene-wenger-football-doping-arsenal


In September his Arsenal side lost 2-1 at Dinamo Zagreb in the Champions League, with the Dinamo midfielder Arijan Ademi, who played the full 90 minutes, failing a drug test after the game. “When I saw that the players of Zagreb were doped – well, when you don’t play at your best and your opponent is doped, it is difficult,” he said last month.

“I try to be faithful to the values that I believe to be important in life and to pass them on to others,” Wenger told L’Equipe. “In 30 years as a manager I’ve never had my players injected to make them better. I never gave them any product that would help enhance their performance. I’m proud of that. I’ve played against many teams that weren’t in that frame of mind.

“For me, the beauty of sport is that everyone wants to win, but there will only be one winner. We have reached an era in which we glorify the winner, without looking at the means or the method. And 10 years later we realise the guy was a cheat. And during that time, the one that came second suffered. He didn’t get recognition. And, with all that’s been said about them, they can be very unhappy.”

Two years ago Wenger said that sport was “full of legends who are in fact cheats” as he called on Uefa to improve its drug testing programme. “Honestly, I don’t think we do enough [on doping tests],” he said. “It is very difficult for me to believe that you have 740 players at the World Cup and you come out with zero problems. Mathematically, that happens every time. But statistically, even for social drugs, it looks like we would do better to go deeper.

(follow the link for the full article, I've just selected a few paragraphs)

Anybody surprised?

[Ian]

Not even remotely. There's too much money involved for horrible shit not to be happening all over the shop. There'll be at least one mega club at it to a disgraceful degree as well.

[Lee]

I've been convinced for a while that there's shitloads of this going on in football. Just as there is a shitload of match fixing happening too. There's no good reason that football should be immune from these things, perhaps even less so than for other sports given the money at stake.

Haven't there been quite strong suggestions that half the brilliant Spaniards of 2008-2012 were smacked off their tits?

[Baz]

I jut hope there isn't a "lol we all knew but shhh" lance armstrong style coverup revealed in the future.

[Ian]

There's no good reason that football should be immune from these things, perhaps even less so that for other sports givem the money at stake.

Is this not part of the same "sport of the working man" delusion?

Don't the people accused/convincted of attempting to do match faxing claim it's rife at every level?

[Disco]

I'm convinced it will be rife, there's too much money and not enough people being caught for it to be anything other than a coverup or look the other way scenario. The various governing bodies are hardly bastions of integrity, can anyone see them caring as long as it stays out of the headlines?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've been convinced for a while that there's shitloads of this going on in football. Just as there is a shitload of match fixing happening too. There's no good reason that football should be immune from these things, perhaps even less so than for other sports given the money at stake.

Haven't there been quite strong suggestions that half the brilliant Spaniards of 2008-2012 were smacked off their tits?

The whole of Spanish sport in the last 30 years is a lie. Indurain, Nadal, Barcelona, all doped up to their eyeballs for the duration.

Many of the lesser players have been caught but there's too much at stake for the big guns to be taken down.

[Lee]

The whole of Spanish sport in the last 30 years is a lie. Indurain, Nadal, Barcelona, all doped up to their eyeballs for the duration.

Many of the lesser players have been caught but there's too much at stake for the big guns to be taken down.

Did Nadal and half the Barcelona lot not share the same doctor/drug dealer?

[Reg]

Nah mate.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Did Nadal and half the Barcelona lot not share the same doctor/drug dealer?

I'm going with Armstrong's Law which is that if a sportsman is accused of doping by enough different people over a sufficient period of time, it means they're definitely doping. Lance had the biggest set of fanboys going as well as global sainthood status, but even that couldn't save him from the truth in the end.

I reckon the whole of British cycling has been doping for years as well. Brailsford and his inner monkey shit is having a laugh.

[Lewis]

I reckon it gets used in football to help with injuries, but I don't see how it could be used week-to-week by everybody and not have somebody fuck it up somewhere along the line. There are too many people involved in the process, and just as there is too much money at stake for somebody to blow it all open, there is also too much money at stake to risk it in the first place.

[Yevrah]

I'd imagine it's rife in any and all physical sports.

[Lewis]

Football isn't that physical in the grand scheme of things.

[Disco]

The gains are made in improved recovery, that aids any physical training.

[simon]

It would make a lot of sense, especially with what we know about Arsenal and their injuries. They're famed for having an injury crisis every season and yet teams like Chelsea and Man Utd have done significantly better in that regard over the last ten years.

[Lewis]

Relatively speaking, footballers don't do that much physical training. If you read about the lifestyles that Olympic weight-lifters have to lead they literally structure their entire existence around training and eating and sleeping. Similarly cyclists (track and road) flog themselves to death and then risk injury walking to the shops. They are arguably the two most physically-demanding sports, and not surprisingly the ones with the biggest drug problems.

If footballers were doing the sort of training that would be conducive to deriving maximum benefit from gear they wouldn't be able to live the lifestyles that they lead (we covered this before with smoking). This is why I think it would only really be useful in coming back from injury, since they live at the training ground.

[Reg]

It would make a lot of sense, especially with what we know about Arsenal and their injuries. They're famed for having an injury crisis every season and yet teams like Chelsea and Man Utd have done significantly better in that regard over the last ten years.
That's because Arsenal's physio team and their methods belong to the past.

[simon]

That's because Arsenal's physio team and their methods belong to the past.

It definitely could be, don't get me wrong.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I doubt footballers are pumping themselves full of sweeties so they can run faster, but the rise of 90 minute 'pressing' is a curious one. Barcelona were its pioneers, of course.

[Reg]

They ran like whippets for a few seconds, then kept the ball for fifteen minutes straight, each of them staying in the their own five yard space while doing so.

[CJay]

I dunno, I've seen teams at and above my level playing in a similar way (it's all relative of course) and obviously they weren't doped up. Surely if doping is so rife in football then someone (an ex player or a player with a grudge) could make a lot of money / publicity off going public with evidence? Or use it as a way of selling their crap book, but I haven't really heard of anyone doing that or backing up claims of doping.

It seems like it'd be a hard thing to cover up so extensively, but I guess it's possible.

[Pepe]

If you're looking for lols, two cyclists were caught taking EPO during the Gran Fondo New York, which is an amateur race. What's the fucking point?

[niko_cee]

Surely if doping is so rife in football then someone (an ex player or a player with a grudge) could make a lot of money / publicity off going public with evidence? Or use it as a way of selling their crap book, but I haven't really heard of anyone doing that or backing up claims of doping.
.

Tony Cascarino?

[ItalAussie]

It's the richest sport in the world, with investments in clubs that are worth billions of dollars. These clubs are cut-throat organizations that survive on a year-to-year basis looking for any possible edge they can use to get ahead of a fairly crowded top table, and who can collapse based on one slip or bad season.

I reckon they might just be at it.

[CJay]

Tony Cascarino?

What was he claiming?

[Lewis]

That he was given dodgy injections at Marseille. But they were run by an actual criminal at the time, so it's surely the exception.

[McAvennie]

That's because Arsenal's physio team and their methods belong to the past.

They do? How so?

[Kikó]

I reckon Lewis will be close to the money. Players won't think they're doping either and its just clever medicine. Whatever the doctor says goes.

If Sky haven't doped then I'd be amazed.

[Reg]

They do? How so?
I don't really know specifics. Think it's something that's fairly widely accepted. Here's some reading: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenals-injury-problems-down-incompetent-3233644

It's something I've heard through word of mouth (my small piece of ITKness) and also I think Philippe Auclair mentioned something on Football Weekly, but could be wrong.

[Angelsaint]

Another e-victory for me?

I said it several times about Guardiola Barcelona side. At the time I was laugh of by among others, yev. Now I will just wait for the last puzzle to find his place and claim the Internet.

[Reg]

Daniel Taylor's written a decent article on this.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/nov/14/football-arsene-wenger-doping-suspicions

[Angelsaint]

Very good article and the non discussion in here shows that most don't want to believe it or talk about it like the most in football.

[Toby]

Have you even bothered to read the thread?

[Davgooner]

I don't really know specifics. Think it's something that's fairly widely accepted. Here's some reading: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenals-injury-problems-down-incompetent-3233644

It's something I've heard through word of mouth (my small piece of ITKness) and also I think Philippe Auclair mentioned something on Football Weekly, but could be wrong.

It's largely from that bizarre Dutch twat who seems to spend 100% of his time coating of Wenger on Twitter.

[Jimmy Floyd]

'Belong to the past' is an odd phrase to describe physio methods. Are they kissing it better, or consulting Getafix the druid, or what?

[Reg]

Behind the times?

Not as good?

[Angelsaint]

Have you even bothered to read the thread?Yes, and its not even close to top 10 most commented topics on TD. If you think it is quite a recent topic with new developments... Well.. I must say you lost a amazing opportunity to be quiet.

[ItalAussie]

Yes, and its not even close to top 10 most commented topics on TD. If you think it is quite a recent topic with new developments... Well.. I must say you lost a amazing opportunity to be quiet.Everyone's basically agreed that it's probably rife, but until the other shoe drops with regards to test results, there's not altogether much else to say.

Don't try and be antagonistic. You've been doing pretty well since coming back.

[Ian]

Presumably Saint wants fifteen pages of "Well I think it is." "Well I think it isn't." "It is. So there." "Is not." "Is so!"

[Disco]

No takebacks!

[Lewis]

Football isn't that physical in the grand scheme of things.

Rugby (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/26/rugby-steroids-olympic-games-rio) on the other hand...

I always think about this (http://www.menshealth.co.uk/building-muscle/get-big/leigh-halfpenny-muscle-workout) when drugs 'n' rugby comes up. Yeah. Of course you put all that mass on over a summer you midget. You read about rugby players playing on the Sunday, getting through the rest of the day on adrenaline, and then barely being able to move when they wake up. How do they then fit a week of weight training, ball-handling, and match preparation in without topping up on gear?

[Queenslander]

There has to be sophisticated doping in rugby league because those blokes play way too many high intensity games every year.

[Andy]

Everything to lose and very little to gain. If someone like Berbatov can smoke and still play at the highest level I doubt doping will have a massive impact. I really doubt it's widespread.

Maybe in some countries and some clubs they push the boundary a bit but I doubt it's a huge problem that's killing the competitiveness of the Sport, can only blame money for that.

[Lewis]

There has to be sophisticated doping in rugby league because those blokes play way too many high intensity games every year.

The rules will allow for more testosterone than the average person (Olympic testing does anyway), so they will definitely be topping it up as much as they can. The Roosters very nearly got touched up for it in 2013 when a few players recorded elevated levels, so unless they were all doing it in Boyd Cordner's bathroom you would assume it's a programmed effort. Union likewise, although I would guess the focus may be more on physicality than week-to-week recovery.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Union is in danger of eating itself on that front. It'll soon be a game where people who aren't massive won't be welcome even at decent amateur level.

[JPA]

Would explain most of Villa's displays this season, if Wenger is correct. Though maybe I'm confusing doping with our players just being utter dog-shit.

[Lewis]

Union is in danger of eating itself on that front. It'll soon be a game where people who aren't massive won't be welcome even at decent amateur level.

The NFL is basically team sports taken to its absolute physical extent, and that seems to manage.

[Boydy]

Was wondering what sort of difference steroids actually make and did some googling. Found this (http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/steroids-vs-natural/).


The Study

This 10 week study took a group of 43 men of normal body weight between the ages of 19 and 40 who all had some degree of weight training experience. These men were then split up into 4 different groups:

Group 1 did NOT do any form of exercise, and did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing no weight training.)
Group 2 did NOT do any form of exercise, but they received weekly injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate. (Drug users doing no weight training.)
Group 3 DID exercise, but they did NOT receive any form of steroids or drugs. (Natural guys doing weight training.)
Group 4 DID exercise, and they also received weekly injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate. (Drug users doing weight training.)
All of their diets (calorie intake, protein intake, nutrient intake, etc.) were standardized according to each person’s body weight, recorded, verified and adjusted when needed. The 2 groups who WERE weight training (groups 3 and 4) followed the same supervised workouts each week.

Meaning, with the exception of the fact that some groups were or were not weight training, and some were or were not using drugs… everything else (diet and training) was equal and even.

The Results

So… guess what happened?

Group 1 (no exercise, natural) experienced no significant changes. No surprise there.
Group 2 (no exercise, drug use) was able to build about 7 pounds of muscle. That’s not a typo. The group receiving testosterone injections and NOT working out at all gained 7 pounds of muscle.
Group 3 (exercise, natural) was able to build about 4 pounds of muscle.
Group 4 (exercise, drug use) was able to build about 13 pounds of muscle.

Fucking hell.

[Angelsaint]

Guardiola Barcelona side at minute 89 still having all team pressing high for the ball...and you guys think doping doesn't make a difference?! Of course it does. It won't make a shitty player a world class player but definitely make a very good player more constant in his performance.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The NFL is basically team sports taken to its absolute physical extent, and that seems to manage.

Union doesn't sell enough cheeseburgers for that business model though. They need people to actually play it quite widely.

[Queenslander]

The rules will allow for more testosterone than the average person (Olympic testing does anyway), so they will definitely be topping it up as much as they can. The Roosters very nearly got touched up for it in 2013 when a few players recorded elevated levels, so unless they were all doing it in Boyd Cordner's bathroom you would assume it's a programmed effort. Union likewise, although I would guess the focus may be more on physicality than week-to-week recovery.

Paul Gallen's heroic 80 minute effort at Origin level a few years ago always comes to mind when drugs in League is brought up. He didn't run of gas for the whole bloody game!

[The Merse]

It's rife in Rugby Union. The Welsh youth and national level is full of it, and there's little doubt it's following through to the Regions. I think it was Pen Y Graig that had to fold after their whole team tested positive.

Of course, something few people have talked about of late is that the great Jonah Lomu's decline was apparently linked to heavy creatine usage too.

[Boydy]

I thought the creatine and kidney thing was meant to be untrue?

[phonics]

Creatine was one of those 'Oh go on then' drugs no?

Wenger for all his anti-doping nonsense is well known for leaving creatine around the training ground (of the invincibles era, Bergkamp mentions it in his book) where pinches of the stuff weren't encouraged but you were able to take as much as you were willing,

[Lewis]

Creatine isn't a drug. It isn't particularly great (as far as I know) for people with existing kidney complaints, but even then you would have to be hoovering the stuff up at a ridiculous rate.

[Pepe]

http://chrisfroome.esquire.co.uk/

[Lee]

A judge in Madrid has cleared Eufemiano Fuentes but ruled that all athletes implicated in the Spanish doping scandal can be identified and blood bags (211 of them) can be handed over to the relevant sporting authorities. This could get interesting.

[Disco]

Shiiiiiit, that will make an interesting read. Lets hope it's published before being dogpiled by 1000 lawyers at once.

[Max Power]

This is when we find out the blood bags have mysteriously disappeared.

[Lewis]

I was going to bump this the other day when Muhammad Ali was all over the news. He was pretty much the supreme athlete of all time, and yet by modern standards his physique (and those of his rivals) was pretty ordinary.