Apartheid was bad but

[QE Harold Flair]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3043276/South-Africa-descending-new-apartheid-Immigrants-create-armed-gangs-patrol-streets-face-violence-aimed-foreigners.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/29/south-africa-a-country-at-war-as-rate-soars-to-nearly-49-a-day


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY1qmtbiBcI

Look what happens when the power shifts.....

Sorry in advance for reporting reality.

[John]

Report in specifics please, Harold.

What do you mean by 'look what happens when the power shifts'.

It's stretching the term a bit to describe posting a month old Guardian article and a seven year old YouTube clip as 'reporting'.

[igor_balis]

wake up sheeple

[QE Harold Flair]

Report in specifics please, Harold.

What do you mean by 'look what happens when the power shifts'.

It's stretching the term a bit to describe posting a month old Guardian article and a seven year old YouTube clip as 'reporting'.

The age of the clip is deliberate since it was from when Mandela was alive and lauded, despite being a massive racist. What I meant is the shift from a white government to a largely black one hasn't achieved very much positive. It is, if you like, a demonstration of affirmative action failing, as it always will. South Africa is a bit of a shithole now......

[Blitz]

Should just get rid of Zuma and his mates on the gravy train...

[Blitz]

The age of the clip is deliberate since it was from when Mandela was alive and lauded, despite being a massive racist.

Are you saying Mandela was a massive racist?

[Toby]

Yes, he is saying Mandela was a massive racist.

[John]

The age of the clip is deliberate since it was from when Mandela was alive and lauded, despite being a massive racist. What I meant is the shift from a white government to a largely black one hasn't achieved very much positive. It is, if you like, a demonstration of affirmative action failing, as it always will. South Africa is a bit of a shithole now......

You're not getting away with that affirmative action guff. Mandela's party won a free election because the country was largely black and it was the first ever election in which everyone was allowed to vote.

[QE Harold Flair]

You're not getting away with that affirmative action guff. Mandela's party won a free election because the country was largely black and it was the first ever election in which everyone was allowed to vote.

So blacks voted for blacks because they were black, basically? Not turned out very well. Need to get some whites in there for diversity, I fear. Not only blacks as well, but blacks who want to kill whites.

[Pen]

Harold really is the voice of the oppressed!

The situation in South Africa is pretty much the same today with the roles reversed as it was before Apartheid ended.

[QE Harold Flair]

The voice of reason, actually.

And if what you say is correct (it isn't, it's been tunred into a shithole) then that would be a massive failure in the eyes of the left, surely? The left hates racism, doesn't it? The left hates oppression, doesn't it? The left hates bigotry, doesn't it?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Harold really is the voice of the oppressed!

The situation in South Africa is pretty much the same today with the roles reversed as it was before Apartheid ended.

Fucking lol at this shit.

South Africa is a billion times better now than under apartheid. Maybe Mr de Bock isn't as racially superior as he used to be, but that's his problem.

[QE Harold Flair]

In what way is it better?

[John]

So blacks voted for blacks because they were black, basically? Not turned out very well. Need to get some whites in there for diversity, I fear. Not only blacks as well, but blacks who want to kill whites.

I suppose we can add 'affirmative action' to the list of things you don't understand.


The voice of reason, actually.

And if what you say is correct (it isn't, it's been tunred into a shithole) then that would be a massive failure in the eyes of the left, surely? The left hates racism, doesn't it? The left hates oppression, doesn't it? The left hates bigotry, doesn't it?

It was a shithole under apartheid too. It had racism, oppression, and bigotry under the old system. The difference then was that they were state sponsored, so if nothing else it's improved on that score. At least the disgraceful violence, racism, and xenophobia are all down to people being twats, rather than national policy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It is better in that 90% of the population is no longer politically, socially and economically suppressed because of the colour of their skin.

[QE Harold Flair]

Well I said apartheid was bad, so let's leave that bit aside. What is better apart from that?

[Pen]

Typical white apologists. Always seeing everyone else as a victim when the real victim is the rich white man whose rights are being taken away.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Apart from that? Well, the cricket team is better. What is worse?

[John]

Well I said apartheid was bad, so let's leave that bit aside. What is better apart from that?

:D Amazing.

Add apartheid to the list of things that Harold doesn't understand.

[QE Harold Flair]

I suppose we can add 'affirmative action' to the list of things you don't understand.

It's the same outcome. I know very well what affirmative action is, and I was referring to the workplace, not the choosing of the government.



It was a shithole under apartheid too. It had racism, oppression, and bigotry under the old system. The difference then was that they were state sponsored, so if nothing else it's improved on that score. At least the disgraceful violence, racism, and xenophobia are all down to people being twats, rather than national policy.

Racism, oppression and bigotry are still there, but everything else is worse. Corruption, which no black, African political party ever seems to be able to do without, is much more rife.

Poverty, unemployment, income inequality, life expectancy, land ownership, and educational achievement have worsened since the end of apartheid and the election of the African National Congress. Again, I'm not to be blamed for reality.

[Lewis]

Unless they've stopped it since I read about it, I think there is some pretty major affirmative action in the form of the 'Black Economic Empowerment' scheme. That basically dictates that businesses over a certain size have to let non-white people own a certain amount or manage significant aspects or some other shit to fulfill a certain number of points. The results (from a business perspective) are predictably wank.

R. W. Johnson recently updated his 1977 account of how shit South Africa was to say it's all about to collapse. I need to read that at some point.

[QE Harold Flair]

:D Amazing.

Add apartheid to the list of things that Harold doesn't understand.

Why do you think I don't understand it? It's not hard to understand. All the things listed above have gotten worse, and that's a fact.

[Blitz]

Things aren't great at the moment. I won't classify it as a shithole yet (but it's getting there slowly but surely, the DA desperately needs to win a couple more provinces), but I think it's worse than what it was at the height of Apartheid, with regards to corruption and self-enriching of those currently in power.

i don't completely disagree with the idea of affirmative action, but in it's current state, it's absolutely not working.

Certain things are better though, which tapers over the cracks. Plenty of youths seem to absolutely embrace diversity, which means if you get yourself involved in the right mix of people, things are pretty awesome. It's not that hard to do.

I get the feeling the quicker the ANC fucks shit up, the better, because people are getting fed up. We just need the uneducated people to grow some brains... It's seems unlikely, so it's still very much an uphill battle. I'm an optimist regarding the state of our country, so fingers crossed.

Lastly, Mandela might have been a racist at the height of the bombing in the 70's and 80's, but he certainly didn't stay one.

[Benny]

Well I said apartheid was bad, so let's leave that bit aside. What is better apart from that?

http://i.imgur.com/2mbe2Z8.gif

[QE Harold Flair]

Typical white apologists. Always seeing everyone else as a victim when the real victim is the rich white man whose rights are being taken away.

Or, in this case, the rich white men who kept a country stable by comparison. Let it rot lkike the rest of Africa, I say. Not that I want any Boers stealing our jobs, mind. I'm an equal opportunity non-immigrant welcomer, unless they are skilled and needed.

[Lewis]

Northern Ireland should take the Boers if they ever jack it in. They could do with a sudden influx of Protestants, even if they're of the loony Calvinist manifest destiny variety.

[QE Harold Flair]

Fuck that, the Boer accent is even worse than the Nothern Irish.

[John]

It's the same outcome. I know very well what affirmative action is, and I was referring to the workplace, not the choosing of the government.

Racism, oppression and bigotry are still there, but everything else is worse. Corruption, which no black, African political party ever seems to be able to do without, is much more rife.

Poverty, unemployment, income inequality, life expectancy, land ownership, and educational achievement have worsened since the end of apartheid and the election of the African National Congress. Again, I'm not to be blamed for reality.

You were referring to the workplace, and not the government? Really?


What I meant is the shift from a white government to a largely black one hasn't achieved very much positive. It is, if you like, a demonstration of affirmative action failing, as it always will.

You fucking liar.

Political corruption as we understand it might be up, but that'll be because a political system built from the ground up primarily to benefit those in charge has no real need for traditional 'cash for consideration' dickery or embezzlement. It was corrupt by design.

If academic achievement is genuinely down across the board I'll be surprised, because under apartheid children were forced to take lessons in a language most of them didn't understand.

How does 'land ownership' 'worsen?'

[QE Harold Flair]

You were referring to the workplace, and not the government? Really?

Yes, since I thought it was rather common knowldge that what followed the election of the ANC was obvious discrimination in the workplace, sanctioned by the government. It's not my fault you're ignorant.


Political corruption as we understand it might be up, but that'll be because a political system built from the ground up primarily to benefit those in charge has no real need for traditional 'cash for consideration' dickery or embezzlement. It was corrupt by design.

If academic achievement is genuinely down across the board I'll be surprised, because under apartheid children were forced to take lessons in a language most of them didn't understand.

How does 'land ownership' 'worsen?'

As we understand it? As in actual fact, yes. Land owndership worsens by people having less land, one would imagine.



South African mathematics, science education ranked worst in the world

http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/124024-south-african-mathematics-science-education-ranked-worst-in-the-world.html

[phonics]

Not a racist but Apartheid was better.

Not homophobic but thinks they're child molesters.

Not sexist but doesn't seem to be able to refer to a woman without calling her darling or referencing her vagina.

The Not Muslim one is going to be fun.

[QE Harold Flair]

Not a racist but Apartheid was better.

Something I never said.


Not homophobic but thinks they're child molesters.

Say what now?


Not sexist but doesn't seem to be able to refer to a woman without calling her darling or referencing her vagina.

Find me one example.


The Not Muslim one is going to be fun.

It might be if all your previous ramblings were not made-up, typically left wing, emotional shite.

[John]

Yes, since I thought it was rather common knowldge that what followed the election of the ANC was obvious discrimination in the workplace, sanctioned by the government. It's not my fault you're ignorant.

I see, so you were referencing workplace discrimination out of nowhere, with no antecedent. You're either terrible at expressing yourself or you're a liar. Pick one.


As we understand it? As in actual fact, yes. Land owndership worsens by people having less land, one would imagine.

http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/124024-south-african-mathematics-science-education-ranked-worst-in-the-world.html

Yes, political corruption of the type we're used to hearing about, and therefore think about when we hear the phrase.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Being a man of south west London (or thereabouts) I'm party to the true effects of a wave of white South African immigration. It's truly terrifying to behold.

[Henry]

Things aren't great at the moment. I won't classify it as a shithole yet (but it's getting there slowly but surely, the DA desperately needs to win a couple more provinces), but I think it's worse than what it was at the height of Apartheid, with regards to corruption and self-enriching of those currently in power.

i don't completely disagree with the idea of affirmative action, but in it's current state, it's absolutely not working.

Certain things are better though, which tapers over the cracks. Plenty of youths seem to absolutely embrace diversity, which means if you get yourself involved in the right mix of people, things are pretty awesome. It's not that hard to do.

I get the feeling the quicker the ANC fucks shit up, the better, because people are getting fed up. We just need the uneducated people to grow some brains... It's seems unlikely, so it's still very much an uphill battle. I'm an optimist regarding the state of our country, so fingers crossed.

Lastly, Mandela might have been a racist at the height of the bombing in the 70's and 80's, but he certainly didn't stay one.

I assume this bloke (welcome) has more of a clue than Harold.
South Africa obviously has serious problems (what middle income country doesn't?) but the idiotic implication he makes is that apartheid should have remained. He needs to watch himself.

[QE Harold Flair]

I see, so you were referencing workplace discrimination out of nowhere, with no antecedent. You're either terrible at expressing yourself or you're a liar. Pick one.

Not out of nowhere - out of a direct result of blacks electing blacks because they're black.

[QE Harold Flair]

I assume this bloke (welcome) has more of a clue than Harold.
South Africa obviously has serious problems (what middle income country doesn't?) but the idiotic implication he makes is that apartheid should have remained. He needs to watch himself.

Erm no, it isn't. Having the right people to run the country is the clear inference here. i.e not a load of black people because they're black.

[phonics]

Blitz needs no welcome, good lurker of the old board.

Speaking of South Africa, I wonder what happened to Fundi Tsotsi, he shared certain things but not so much to the point that he always had this vague air of mystery mixed in with his slightly nuttier postings.

[QE Harold Flair]

Welcome, Blitz.

[Henry]

You're quite good at making these implications, provoking outrage and then backing away from them. It's called trolling.

The meaning of "Apartheid was bad but look what happens when the power shifts" is that the present situation is both worse and the inevitable result of abandoning apartheid.
It follows that apartheid was better and should have been kept.

[QE Harold Flair]

You're quite good at making these implications, provoking outrage and then backing away from them. It's called trolling.

The meaning of "Apartheid was bad but look what happens when the power shifts" is that the present situation is both worse and the inevitable result of abandoning apartheid.
It follows that apartheid was better and should have been kept.

Well it shouldn't provoke outrage, as I said nothing that isn't true. It's not my problem the left like to get themselves all worked up about these things. You would be aboilutely incandecent with rage were the races the other way around in all this. Just to be clear - apartheid wasn't better because it was apartheid - it was better because you had competent people running things.

The same could be said of Colonialism - virtually every country which had it was more stable than it's since become. And those which still hang on to it at some level are the more civilised nations in their neighbourhood, typically. And on that score, if you were going to be ruled by anyone, we were a bloody good lot to be ruled by as compared to others.

[Toby]

Poverty, unemployment, income inequality, life expectancy, land ownership, and educational achievement have worsened since the end of apartheid and the election of the African National Congress. Again, I'm not to be blamed for reality.

Isn't life expectancy falling in most of southern Africa (i.e. Botswana, Zimbabwe etc)?

Unemployment seems to have been fairly steady since Apartheid ended:

http://media.economist.com/images/images-magazine/2011/02/26/ma/20110226_mac247.gif

Income inequality has worsened in general, as it has in pretty much every country in the world, but income inequality between races has decreased.

I'm not sure which aspects of land ownership are supposed to be worsening? Fewer people owning land?

[phonics]

I'm not sure which aspects of land ownership are supposed to be worsening? Fewer people owning land?

We asked this earlier. It's people owning less land.

Harold, a man of science.

[Henry]

Just to be clear - apartheid wasn't better because it was apartheid - it was better because you had competent people running things.

Just tt be clear indeed. You' be happier if it had never come to an end?

[QE Harold Flair]

Isn't life expectancy falling in most of southern Africa (i.e. Botswana, Zimbabwe etc)?

Unemployment seems to have been fairly steady since Apartheid ended:

http://media.economist.com/images/images-magazine/2011/02/26/ma/20110226_mac247.gif

Income inequality has worsened in general, as it has in pretty much every country in the world, but income inequality between races has decreased.

I'm not sure which aspects of land ownership are supposed to be worsening? Fewer people owning land?

Lol at every bad thing being 'oh well that's happened everywhere' but we get a nice, shiny graph on the one area you think suits you. If you have a disagreement take it up with wikipedia, the source of all excellence. Of course income inequality between races has decreased - loads of white people won't be allowed to go for certain juobs. I expect you've already had a wank over that.

oh and *including discouraged workseekers :happycry:

[QE Harold Flair]

We asked this earlier. It's people owning less land.

Harold, a man of science.

'we' didn't ask anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-31503425

Educate yourself.

[QE Harold Flair]

Just tt be clear indeed. You' be happier if it had never come to an end?

Nope, I'd be happier if it came to an end and those in power were still competent (i.e mostly white, seemingly).

[Toby]

Lol at every bad thing being 'oh well that's happened everywhere' but we get a nice, shiny graph on the one area you think suits you. If you have a disagreement take it up with wikipedia, the source of all excellence. Of course income inequality between races has decreased - loads of white people won't be allowed to go for certain juobs. I expect you've already had a wank over that.

If it's happened everywhere it's clearly relevant to the argument of whether it's due to policies in South Africa (and therefore the removal of Apartheid) or not, but the only one I said had got worse everywhere is income inequality. I knew I should have said there that it is not due to white people getting poorer, given your predictable response.

And I will take it up with you, thanks, since you're the one who posted it. I'm sure you wouldn't settle for "yeah but wikipedia sez" if roles were reversed.


oh and *including discouraged workseekers :happycry:

Yes, as in "all unemployed", not just "unemployed seeking work".

[QE Harold Flair]

If it's happened everywhere it's clearly relevant to the argument of whether it's due to policies in South Africa (and therefore the removal of Apartheid) or not, but the only one I said had got worse everywhere is income inequality. I knew I should have said there that it is not due to white people getting poorer, given your predictable response.

I'm not sure what it is, but there's just something in the bones that tells me you wouldn't be bending over backwards to make these excuses if the roles were reversed. Call me cynical.


And I will take it up with you, thanks, since you're the one who posted it. I'm sure you wouldn't settle for "yeah but wikipedia sez" if roles were reversed.

It was copied directly from wiki, that sentence. I just didn't quote it.



Yes, as in "all unemployed", not just "unemployed seeking work".

That doesn't sound like 'discouraged workseekers' to me. I guess they use a funny turn of phrase.

[Toby]

At least we know it was an unthinking copy/paste dump from Wikipedia to suit another argument you'd made up on the fly.

[QE Harold Flair]

Only that sentence. I used it to back up what I was saying because you know me Tobes, I am the one who always brings the evidence. I could have rephrased it but it was fine as it was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_in_post-apartheid_South_Africa

[Toby]

You should really decide whether you agree with it or not. This halfway between "it was fine" and attempts to distance yourself from any responsibility for it is a bit desperate.

[QE Harold Flair]

Agree with what? Apartheid. I've consistently said I don't agree with it. Only an idiot, someone with a preconception, or both, can claim I have ever approved of it.

[phonics]

So what do you want? Blacks are allowed to drink at the water fountain but not able to hold office? What is the actual point you were trying to make with this thread? It's all I'm asking.

[QE Harold Flair]

Competent people. I accept it was a free vote but I'm just dealing with reality here - and that reality is that things have got worse on many levels. What I want or don't want is irrelevant, I was just pointing this out.

[Toby]

Agree with what?

The quote from Wikipedia. You know, the subject of our recent posts? Pretty much the only thing we were discussing?

[QE Harold Flair]

You might have meant apartheid, since you didn't quote anything.

And what reason would I have to disagree with it?

[phonics]

So your thread is, 'I would like to point out that a country doesn't have competent politicians and things are worse on many levels since they stopped letting the whites rule them'?

Why? I'm asking for the psychology behind making the thread more than anything. I'm struggling to understand the point behind the thread if you're not claiming Apartheid was better?

[John]

Agree with what? Apartheid. I've consistently said I don't agree with it. Only an idiot, someone with a preconception, or both, can claim I have ever approved of it.

Saying it's better than what they have now is an approval of it, Harold, no matter how strenuously you qualify that with 'Apartheid was shit but'.

That Wikipedia link is fun. You should read more than the blurb at the top, Harold. And you should stop accusing other people of 'cherry-picking' when the sentence you've quoted from it actually starts 'Despite a rising GDP', which you've left out.

[Toby]

You might have meant apartheid, since you didn't quote anything.

I really feel like context was clear. I mean, I don't hold you personally responsible in any way for Apartheid and there's no reason I would.

[QE Harold Flair]

So your thread is, 'I would like to point out that a country doesn't have competent politicians and things are worse on many levels since they stopped letting the whites rule them'?

I think most people could read a little more into it than that. The reason they don't have competent politicians is because black people, who sing songs about killing white people, voted in black people because they're black. I'm just doing my bit for anti-racism, whoch you should be applauding me for.

[phonics]

I just shake my head at this point.

[QE Harold Flair]

I really feel like context was clear. I mean, I don't hold you personally responsible in any way for Apartheid and there's no reason I would.

Nothing to do with responsibility, you simply asked if I agree with 'it'.

Phonics, I'm sick of you!

[John]

You might have meant apartheid, since you didn't quote anything.

And what reason would I have to disagree with it?

If you agree with it, defend it.

Posting something as 'evidence' for a position you're clearly aligning yourself with and then directing anyone who disagrees with it to the article you stole it from is like qualifying your drivel with 'just sayin', or calling anyone who thinks you're a twat a 'hater'. It's pathetic.

[Toby]

Nothing to do with responsibility, you simply asked if I agree with 'it'.

Phonics, I'm sick of you!

The post is literally at the top of the page, but if you'd like to check it again I'll quote:


You should really decide whether you agree with it or not. This halfway between "it was fine" and attempts to distance yourself from any responsibility for it is a bit desperate.

It's entirely obvious what I meant, but context has never been your strong suit.

[QE Harold Flair]

Saying it's better than what they have now is an approval of it, Harold, no matter how strenuously you qualify that with 'Apartheid was shit but'.

It absolutely is not. That's you drawing conclusions from it that you want.


That Wikipedia link is fun. You should read more than the blurb at the top, Harold. And you should stop accusing other people of 'cherry-picking' when the sentence you've quoted from it actually starts 'Despite a rising GDP', which you've left out.

I never said everything was worse.

[QE Harold Flair]

How many pages do you reckon we can squeeze out of thios, Tobes? 'Context' is usually the start oif a great marathon. :drool:

[Toby]

There's no need to drag it out. I'll take you dodging the question as you continuing to distance yourself from the quote and assume that you don't want to defend it in the face of criticism.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm not dodging anything. I accept what it says, as I perfectly intimated before when I said I have no reason to doubt it.

[John]

Bringing the evidence, indeed.

[Toby]

I didn't and don't see any post saying that.

So rather than defer to Wikipedia when asked anything, why not answer questions on the previous page? How is land ownership "worsening"? On what figures is unemployment worsening?

[QE Harold Flair]

Try post number 56, dipshit.

[Henry]

Yesterday Harold said that he agreed with some Nazi policies. He's definitely digging deeper.

[Toby]

It (Post number 56, in case you're not sure) just says:


You might have meant apartheid, since you didn't quote anything.


So I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.

[QE Harold Flair]

Yesterday Harold said that he agreed with some Nazi policies. He's definitely digging deeper.

Yes, I do. What's the problem? Is every Nazi policy ever made a bad policy because they were the Nazi party? Was increased animal welfare a bad policy?

[QE Harold Flair]

It (Post number 56, in case you're not sure) just says:



So I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.

The very fucking clear implication that yes, I agree with what it says. Deliberately obtuse or very stupid, which are you?

And Mr Disingenuous, here is post 56 in full:


You might have meant apartheid, since you didn't quote anything.

And what reason would I have to disagree with it?

[Toby]

The very fucking clear implication that yes, I agree with what it says. Deliberately obtuse or very stupid, which are you?

There's no need to get upset just because your attempts to dodge scrutiny have run into a dead end. When challenged on it you deferred to "that's what wikipedia says" rather than actually defending it, and when I asked if you agreed with it you spazzed out, so we're again back at square one asking - since you agree with the quote- if you could please answer the questions people have about it.


And Mr Disingenuous, here is poist 56 in full:

I guess you tried to edit after I had replied and that there is something wrong with the board, since I get differently.

[ItalAussie]

Just no.