The Ultimate WWE Thread

[Ben]

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Alvarez is a mug but don't know why he's say that without some kind of tip off.

Coupled with the Ricochet, Logan Paul et al tweets, all signs point to a work. But why? The interest was already there, the tickets were already sold. It's a classic Russo non-sensical swerve for the sake of a swerve in that case.

[Ben]

Sorry for shitting up the thread with Twitter but lol.

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[Gray Fox]

Situation is the same as it was the other night I think. The corporates want Rick(which now includes Rick himself), but everyone at the shows wants Cody.

It's like your boss having a stupid idea at work, but they're the boss so you all have to play along until it blows up in their face. You and your coworkers would be in on it, maybe rebel in your own way, but for now you play ball.

[Ben]

Let's see how the live crowd goes tonight. Raw is in St Louis, 10k sell out, and I think they can be quite vocal there. There'll be a whole load of seethe if they used that Nakamura jump attack at the house show last night to keep him off the show.

[Waffdon]

Nah he’s at the show. Been advertised as them two having a random street fight

[7om]

We’re being worked here.

[Ben]

If we knew that either way, Roman is winning, who do you want in the match?

[phonics]

Ken Shamrock

[7om]

If we knew that either way, Roman is winning, who do you want in the match?

Cody. Otherwise you’re destroying the prestige of the Royal Rumble.

[Ian]

As the last man to beat Reigns in a singles match it'd have to be Jezza.

End of Days finishing off the Bloodline. :drool:

[phonics]

Trying to think if I could formulate it to piss off the maximum amount of people.

"Bah gawd, is that Baron Corbin's music?"

[Ian]

Coming out with a shopping trolley full of dog food.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

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Mick Foley to NXT :drool:

[Waffdon]

Okada I presume

[Ben]

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:cool:

This is a very interesting spot for WWE now. It's not just mark fans chanting, you can audibly hear kids too. To the kids, Cody is their hero that signs the autographs every week, while Rick is just a failed movie guy to them.

The WWE were literally also dishing out "We Want Cody" signs too. They're acknowledging this a lot more than they did with Daniel Bryan. Stinks of a work right now.

[wullie]

If it's all intentional as a lot of signs point to, I can't work out what the plan is or what sense it makes. Unless it's just throw all kinds of nonsense out there to make people talk about anything but Vince McMahon, in which case they're doing a great job.

[Waffdon]

I highly doubt it was a work. They are just acknowledging stuff this time around. I think it’ll still be Rock/Reigns.

McIntyre is everything right now. :D

[Shindig]

Aye, they're leaning into it.

[wullie]

I hope they end up with Seth vs Drew, if only for the injury tweets.

[Ben]

If it's all intentional as a lot of signs point to, I can't work out what the plan is or what sense it makes. Unless it's just throw all kinds of nonsense out there to make people talk about anything but Vince McMahon, in which case they're doing a great job.

Exactly my thoughts. On the face of it you think it has to be a work with all the company acknowledgement and Twitter colleague support going on. But it doesn't answer the "Why book it this way?" question. If this actually hits the mainstream then I'll subscribe to the Vince deflection theory, but not yet.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

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:drool:

[Ben]

:lol:

[Waffdon]

Him and Kevin Owens are the best at saying obvious stuff and not being dumb face/heels.

McIntyre saying we all know Reigns matches end the same way with interferences and Rollins going 0-3 versus Rhodes the highlights

[Ben]

McIntyre saying we all know Reigns matches end the same way with interferences and Rollins going 0-3 versus Rhodes the highlights

So he's telling us Cody is beating Roman with everyone banned from ringside. :thbup:

[igor_balis]

I hate stupid WWE booking as much as the next guy, but I kinda like this, but only if it ends up with a triple threat that cody wins.

[Dark Soldier]

They should do WM9 Yoko/Hart/Hogan again for the lols.

[igor_balis]

If Cody wins a triple threat including the rock I think it actually helps him more than the original singles match cus it will get more casual eyes on the match. If they stick with Roman Vs Rock, or they have Cody lose, it's definitely appalling decision making.

[Ben]

Triple threat. :facepalm:

Would rather Rick just won the title.

[Ian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZsjsqaTgNs

"Yeet" is fucking death but some great lines from Gunther in this.

[Shindig]

If the crowd had any brains they'd be chanting Ja! instead of What!? whenever Gunther talked.

[Ian]

Wrestling crowd, so big if.

[Shindig]

I know. I expect too much.

[igor_balis]

Triple threat. :facepalm:

Would rather Rick just won the title.

Why tho lol

[Ben]

Triple threat, four way etc. are inherently awful because apart from a couple of instances (eg. Benoit vs. Michaels vs. Triple H) they're all the same. A certain formula was developed in the early days of multi-man matches (ECW) where one person disappears for the beginning of the match and we have a singles match between the other two, then the person comes back at 100mph and takes out one of the others with a back elbow or something equally as shit, then we have another singles match while the other guy takes a breather and unless the production is absolutely spot on, you usually catch the guy just chilling out waiting for his pre-planned spot to get back in the match. And they all seem to go like this for reasons I don't know. Wrestling is about suspending disbeliefs but triple threats require you to suspend every single disbelief there is, and then the match itself isn't all that good because hot wrestling matches are built on stories so either you have a good story between two of the guys and there's a shitty third wheel, or you try to wedge together two half-arsed stories and the match has no heat.

A classic example was The Shield triple threat, it should have been great considering the history but it was pretty bad, and I firmly believe the triple threat match structure was what ruined it, not any other factors. They had a lot of pre-planned spots but everything in between was plodding in first gear because all matches are worked out in advance these days and you're essentially asking a guy to remember two matches instead of one. If you turned that on not knowing the history of The Shield, you would have thought they'd never crossed paths. It was like they were just indifferent to each other because the match structure didn't let them display any character work.

Anyway, good morning.

[Ian]

Nice one, Igor.

[Waffdon]

He’s right though. Multi man matches are dog meat. MITB can be an exception but you still see fuckers laying about on the outside the whole match

[Lofty]

Lesnar pulled from the new game :D

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

He's also been pulled from their mobile game WWE Supercard.

[Waffdon]

Either Rick is a mong and John Cena was right about him or he’s brewing up for another heel run based off of his interview with Macfee

[Ian]

Anything in particular or just general onliviousness?

[Waffdon]

Taking the piss out of people wanting Rhodes to ‘finish the story’ and claiming him versus Reigns is the biggest match of all time

[Ben]

Heel Rick :cool:

[Ian]

Alright yeah that is the work-iest sounding thing about all this so far.

He wouldn't be going out slagging off the people supposedly wants to cheer him vs Roman.

I wonder if heel Rick can actually manage his first good promo in about 15 years.

[Shindig]

"Well, The Rick says this ..."

[7om]

Actually interested to see what happens at this press conference in Vegas. Hopefully someone goes through a table.

[Gray Fox]

How long before he mentions the late great Ricky Maivia?
All smells like a work now. Cody not challenging Seth and being attacked by everyone suggests they may yet try and work him into it yet.

[7om]

Best the Rick has sounded in years here. Fair play on switching it up.

My prediction: Night 1 Reigns and Rick vs Cody and Rollins. Night 2 Reigns vs Cody. Rick interferes to inadvertantly cost Reigns the title.

[Ben]

You know what, that's not a bad fucking idea. Protects Rick as well, seeing as he blows up after a spinebuster these days.

[Baz]

How does The Rick (51) compare to the likes of Billy Gunn (60) and Jeff Jarrett (56) and Sting (64), in terms for endurance and movement?

[Shindig]

You've picked three names that have never really stopped. Billy Gun's in mad shape.

[Gray Fox]

How does The Rick (51) compare to the likes of Billy Gunn (60) and Jeff Jarrett (56) and Sting (64), in terms for endurance and movement?

The Rick is gassed after an entrance and walk to the ring.

[Ian]

Rick is just Shane O Mac on more roids.

[Ben]

Heel Rick is here guys. Zom has nailed it I think.

[Ian]

That stuff was genuinely pretty good. While the Rock was heaving for air after just cutting a promo he spoke better than he has on WWE TV in donkeys, though there still wasn't much of the old charisma there.

Interesting that Rollins was there and didn't quietly shuffle off stage once it became about Cody. Rick and Roman so Tom's suggestion that there may be a tag match of those four at some point seems pretty plausible.

[Waffdon]

Rhodes is definitely losing due to interference again.

[Baz]

Interference from…

https://media.tenor.com/lwSRAWVCLOQAAAAM/mjf-maxwell-jacob-friedman.gif

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

He'll be disappointed when he realises there's no Matzah ball soup on the table.

[Ben]

Punk can't stay fit but he is possibly even more valuable as a commentator/personality. He was amazing on the mic last night.

[Gray Fox]

I think they've salvaged that about as best a way as they can.

It makes the stuff we saw recently not make a lot of sense, but we can gloss over that. Rollins jumping in to defend Cody is also an interesting one.

[Ben]

Rick is going to squash Rollins for the Workhorse World Championship on Night 2 in the semi-main.

[wullie]

Only thing I didn't like was Roman looking like a bit of a spare part, although maybe now he'll empathise with Jimmy Uso more.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

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Rick about to take the spotlight away from Moana too.

[wullie]

Alright now we're talking, hopefully the big crab is in it again.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Alright now we're talking, hopefully the big crab is in it again.

He doesn't get to finish his story.

[Baz]

Weird as it is, I’d love an ‘origin story’ of her gran.

[Gray Fox]

Rick about to take the spotlight away from Moana too.

You're welcome.

[7om]

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“Have him talk shit about our family again, I’ll slap the fucking teeth out of his mouth”

:drool:

This is The Ricky I can get behind. Dare I say it, he overshadowed Roman with his performance last night. Cody and Rick stole the show and Roman dropped a couple of good lines. Seth was also there.

[Ian]

The interesting thing is how much Rock just takes over from Roman during the whole thing. That's to then play into their feud whenever that happens, or their part of the build if it ends up being a 3 way (just for Ben) or whatever.

[Ian]

Sorry, Rick.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

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Tremendous form there.

[Ben]

Better selling than AEW too. :D

[7om]

https://youtu.be/sAWHcFwFM4I?si=plSsPrNI6UYMQzUA

This is a great video as well because it’s completely unfiltered. I love the idea that the Rick is so indestructible at this point that he’s casually dropping F bombs left, right and centre.

“Let him go, I’ll slap the piss out him again”.

I’m fully onboard with this story. God bless Haitch and Rick for recognising it needed to be changed up.

[wullie]

Hopefully they now explain Cody fighting a year for another shot before just standing aside and then changing his mind again rather than leaving that as a plot hole that makes him look a sap. Say he was blinded by Rick's corporate Hollywood bullshit or something before he was snapped out of it by the big Powerpoint presentation.

[Shindig]

This ends with Rick becoming a new on-screen authority figure. He comes out to a reworking of Vince's theme featuring Wycleff Jean.

[phonics]

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[Ben]

I never thought I'd agree with phonics on anything wrestling but it appears that Steve Blackman is the glue that binds us.

[Gray Fox]

Whoa whoa hang on. Dog Blackman needs to finish his story.

[Ian]

Hopefully they now explain Cody fighting a year for another shot before just standing aside and then changing his mind again rather than leaving that as a plot hole that makes him look a sap. Say he was blinded by Rick's corporate Hollywood bullshit or something before he was snapped out of it by the big Powerpoint presentation.

Yeah that really weird week still makes me feel like they've changed something here because they made Seth / the WHC title (for which many people don't care anyway) but more importantly Cody look like an absolute chump there.

[phonics]

Whoa whoa hang on. Dog Blackman needs to finish his story.

Ken Shamrock snapped and broke all 4 of his ankles sadly.

[Ian]

That's just ADVERSITY.

[Ben]

I remember Blackman and Shamrock teaming on Raw one time to take on Rick during the period he was undermining Faarooq’s leadership. The match was probably shit but I remember that.

[Waffdon]

No Reigns scheduled for tonight. What a melt

[Ian]

*shocked face*

[Waffdon]

I’m surprised Jade Cargill is going to Smackdown. The woman’s division is absolutely stacked there with Damage CTRL, Bianca, Stratton and Charlotte when she returns.

[Shindig]

I think it makes sense. If you want to make her a big deal, you put her where the talent is. Should also help her through the green spell.

[igor_balis]

Ben your analysis of why triple threat matches are shit is hard to argue with. I still disagree though.

If they end up substituting Ricky into the main event in Cody's place, it makes a mockery of two years of build, shits on the royal rumble, and basically sacrifices anything good and sensible for some kind of short term bollocks.

However, given the choice between Cody just winning clean in a singles match against Roman and a triple threat with Cody, Ricky and Roman ...I dunno, call me a lunatic, but I think the latter is actually a better move. I know we roll our eyes at WWE obsessing over star power and pushing part time veterans over current stars, but I think this is sort of the best of both worlds.

Throwing Rick into the mix definitely gets more eyeballs on the thing, and if Cody wins Vs Rick and reigns I honestly think it makes him a bigger star than if it's a singles against reigns. Purely anecdotal, but me and a couple of my irl mates are lapsed, cynical wrestling fans, and the way they've done it has gotten us all invested. The long abandoned "Titus world slide" FB group chat has had some posts, which absolutely wouldn't have happened if we had the clearly correct Cody winning clean against Roman alternate reality.

If they do anything else like rock Vs reigns or Cody not winning they're stupid twats though, for sure.

[Ben]

I can’t argue with that logic. :thbup:

[Gray Fox]

The one thing that cannot be argued here is that Rick turning up is bad for business. It was bad for Codys story, but I'm sure business be boomin' right now.

There's a fair few options for what they can do with this version of the story. There needs to be some tidy up from previous weeks in terms of stepping aside and hugging the Rick, then saying not at Mania, only to u-turn a week later.

You could have Cody v Rick night 1 and then Cody v Roman. Only issue here is you basically make Mania all about the bloodline. You could also make it a 3 way, with Roman and Rick beating Cody down until they clash over who should get the pin as both believe they're head of the table. Even though Roman has essentially taken on the Solo Sikoa role since Rick turned up.
They also seem to want Rollins involved in this from what we've seen so far as well. Perhaps he ends up making the big save during the interference?

[Shindig]

I'll give them credit for one thing: They haven't booked Rick vs Haitch yet.

[Ian]

Well Smackdown confirmed EC is to set up Rollins contender but it does make sense that if this is basically going to be the end, or the beginning of the final act, of Reigns'/Bloodline's story it does make sense for Rollins to be involved in that in some way. I really dunno why when Reigns was running him down they didn't have Rollins point out that Reigns never beat him when they had their match during this run. If they end up having Cody work both nights somehow it wouldn't surprise me if they have Rollins do so too and make that part of the narrative that he's over-extending himself and that contributes to him losing the belt.

Anyway, I thought that while Smackdown was lacking in follow up (beyond a surprisingly fun HHH promo in which he used a couple of Rick's catchphrases) to that stuff it was a pretty fun show. The Chamber qualifiers were all decent-to-good (Sami really had his working boots on for his match with Orton, pulling out all his athletic spots), I liked #DIY vs. Bate/Dunne and they really got a dead crowd into it by the end.

[Ian]

I'll give them credit for one thing: They haven't booked Rick vs Haitch yet.

I was pondering this when Papa Haitch was dropping Rick references but surely with his ticker he can't wrestle?

[Shindig]

He's probably take an in-ring death over being dragged into Vince's court case. Johnny Ace is going to start naming names. You just know it.

Or they could do a cinematic match. At a Smackdown hotel.

[Ian]

Just erase the McMahon era altogether by stealing all its shit.

Rick vs. Haitch vs. Reigns vs. .... I dunno, Omos (for Big Show vibes) with AN ANOA'I IN EVERY CORNER for WrestleMania 2025.

[Shindig]

And then Rockishi turns heel and joins Rick for a run at the tag titles.

[Ian]

While Corey Graves reminds us that Rikishi really just wants to have fun.

[Waffdon]

The tag match last night was a proper throwback to NXT black and gold

[Ben]

Decent little TV match. I enjoyed it when Ciampa was in (Gargano just fucking sucks). Hopefully Dunne and Bate get a decent showing at EC.

[phonics]

Decent little TV match. I enjoyed it when Ciampa was in (Gargano just fucking sucks). Hopefully Dunne and Bate get a decent showing at EC.
Hating on Gargano? Maybe we’re more similar than you think.

[Ben]

I'd pay big money to see Steve Blackman wreck him.

[Ian]

I like Gargano fine as part of DIY but that's where he should stay.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I did like Gargano's feud with Ciampa, although that was mainly due to Ciampa being a Godly heel.

The matches were a let down though.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

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Yeah!

Oh and Justice for Carlito:

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Make Mania a fatal-fourway.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Sorry for the Twitter/X spam but this is stunning.

1756154378581324213

:drool:

[7om]

Holy shit, that was actually nice.

Also:

https://youtu.be/6aFgLHrMBuY?si=w3Gk6tzqN9niCDL6

[Gray Fox]

I like that they're having Rollins involved. Because love him or hate him he really should be.

[Waffdon]

Rollins’ promo. Sue Perb.

[Ben]

He's going to screw Cody so hard and I'm here for it.

[Waffdon]

Not sure. Think they’re setting it up for some type of Attitude Era Civil War shenanigans.

Can see the main event being an absolute clusterfuck and Rhodes wins Mankind esque

[Ben]

Fuck that. WrestleMania is a season finale, the one event where everything should be settled without shenanigans to give the losers an out and/or to extend a feud.

Not saying they won't, but fuck that. I'll be booing this thread off the board.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Fuck that. WrestleMania is a season finale, the one event where everything should be settled without shenanigans to give the losers an out and/or to extend a feud.

Not saying they won't, but fuck that. I'll be booing this thread off the board.

:D

There was fuckeration last Mania in the main event, like every single other Roman title defence.

[Ben]

And it wasn't a great match, even ignoring the winner. Roman has been a geek ever since (I was a fan of his reign up until last summer) and while a lot of his problems are that he's never there, he might have got a lot more grace with the fans had he had great matches and won decisively when he does turn up (you build him as unstoppable as possible then his comeuppance, presumably this Mania, will be bigger and even more meaningful). At the moment in kayfabe you think he's incapable of winning without multiple shenanigans so he doesn't even look strong. Cody didn't need protecting last year because they'd already pencilled him to go clean over Lesnar at Summerslam.

[Ian]

I was really hoping they might have Cody explain why he initially gave the Rock his main event but given he seemed to try and make like it was only at the Vegas presser that he took against Rick maybe they're just gonna try and pretend that bit didn't happen in the first place. Good promo though and I enjoyed Rollins' part in it two, his motivations for getting involved and also just asking Cody what his plan is to make sure this Mania doesn't go down the same as the last one.

Anyway, I am off today so I actually watched (or at least skimmed) most of Raw.

- Enjoyed the opening six-man and, like Zayn on Friday, New Day really came into this looking energised. Liked that they built Jey / Gunther throughout as well, and I'm loving Gunther becoming a bit more snarky too. What the fuck is with Kofi's new ring gear though? When he wore that at the Rumble I assumed something had gone wrong and that was his backup gear or something.

- Lashley / Reed was solid enough, when it occurred to me this was for an Australia show I just assumed Kross would cost Lashley to get Reed on the show but apparently not. Wasn't sure Bobbo was really working with him here though. Looked to me like he sandbagged Reed on at least one move.

- Not entirely against Sami / Nakamura, even if it won't be a patch on their NXT feud, but Nakamura's current gimmick being "wants to stop people achieving anything and then losing to them after a series of okay matches" has already worn thin. Curious as to what the Drew/Sami stuff is building to. If Drew is winning the Chamber, as I expect he is, when does that match even happen? Unless they're just doing the very un-WWE thing (before HHH at least) of just generally laying the groundwork for some future stuff.

- The Becky/Nia/Rhea stuff was fine but they've got a job on to make it seem like anybody other than Becky is gonna win the chamber. And Rhea's got a job on getting a proper good match out of Jax.

- The Drew backstage promo was excellent, as per. "I'm the underdog!"

- Ivar is fun but there was zero chance he was winning that qualifier. And rightly so, but it did make this match feel a bit of a waste of time. I guess Knight will be getting Paul at Mania and that'll be set up in the Chamber.

[Gray Fox]

LA Knight is one that unfortunately got lost in the bloodline shuffle. It would have been great to get a title on him last summer but obviously Roman wasn't there and you can't take it off Rollins after just creating the new belt.

I would have had him dethrone Walter but it seems they're not going that way, so the US title will do him alright.

I suspect we're going into a no DQ match at Mania of some sort for all of THE STORY. That or they're going to have to have the ref bump to end all ref bumps to get this interference in. Good to paint Cody as the honest guy whose only plan is to 'just win' but Rollins the more wise 'architect' along side him to make him think. Maybe they go recruiting allies now along the way.

[Waffdon]

Tbf I fully expected Knight to be screwed over by AJ Styles to set up their match but maybe that’s not happening

[Ben]

The US title is a bit of a double-edged sword. Either it'll propel LA Knight to a World title in the next 12 months or it'll hold him back and he'll fall into the midcard as the boat gets missed. Bit of a risky one for me if they go for him vs. Paul.

[Ben]

I was really hoping they might have Cody explain why he initially gave the Rick his main event but given he seemed to try and make like it was only at the Vegas presser that he took against Rick maybe they're just gonna try and pretend that bit didn't happen in the first place.

Rick played him and Cody isn't ready to admit it.

[Ben]

Babyface Rick hasn’t stood the test of time but it’s looking like Heel Rick has. A few cringey insults still but he’ll never get away from that, however otherwise he wasn’t holding back and it was a good segment last night. Get that 2003 Hollywood Rick theme music loaded back up and we’re onto a winner.

[Ian]

I thought after all the hype that segment had big "could've been an email" energy. Could live without Rick being sweating his balls off after a promo and flubbing a bunch of his lines but he is at least clearing the very low bar of being much better than on his returns when he's just rolling out the catchphrases.

[Ben]

Lots of promos could be an email. Especially Rollins, so we don't have to listen to it in that stupid cackling cadence, although I'll be fair to him he's been pretty good recently when he's been serious.

[Waffdon]

He’s obviously better at being a heel but I can’t take Rick seriously at all. He’s too old :lol:

[phonics]

Mans out of breath after talking about shoving nuggets and fruity pebbles up peoples asses and he thinks he can main event?

[Disco]

Steroids do nothing for cardio then, if that needed to be confirmed.

[phonics]

Steroids do nothing for cardio then, if that needed to be confirmed.

In DragonBall Z they spend lots of time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber which is just their version of roids. It's found you can have strength or speed, not both. Rock chose mass over cardio.

[Gray Fox]

Rick is definitely Trunks. Cody is our Son Gohan taking on Perfect Cell who has absorbed all power before him and seems unstoppable?

[Ben]

I don't get any of those references but I'll agree wholeheartedly.

[Baz]

Young Bucks are mighty mask

[Waffdon]

Why does Solo take his hood off every time like we’re supposed to be surprised it’s him

[Ben]

They presented him with such an aura early on and he was protected for a long time (never getting pinned etc.) but now he's just another guy and he actually doesn't have much in the way of charisma or wrestling ability. It's a shame Jacob Fatu had a load of legal trouble because in hindsight he'd have been much better in that role.

[Gray Fox]

The best part was how he left Jimmy hanging for that high five/handshake at the top of the ramp. He wanted that for a good minute+

I assume this is where we now see Cody accept that Rollins was right and he needs a plan. Then he goes and gets his own team for backup.

[Waffdon]

They presented him with such an aura early on and he was protected for a long time (never getting pinned etc.) but now he's just another guy and he actually doesn't have much in the way of charisma or wrestling ability. It's a shame Jacob Fatu had a load of legal trouble because in hindsight he'd have been much better in that role.

He was pretty charismatic in NXT. Can’t really do much when he’s played the same bodyguard for donkeys

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

The best part was how he left Jimmy hanging for that high five/handshake at the top of the ramp. He wanted that for a good minute+

I assume this is where we now see Cody accept that Rollins was right and he needs a plan. Then he goes and gets his own team for backup.

Sierra, Hotel, India, Echo, Lima, Delta.

[Ben]

I'm making my AEW comeback at Revolution next weekend, there's no way I'm missing this:

Meat Madness Match
Powerhouse Hobbs vs. Wardlow vs. ??? vs. ???

:D

[Baz]

Im completely out the loop but if it’s not Jake Hager and Satnam Singh then I consider it progress.

[Waffdon]

I know it’s against Rhea but Nia Jax should not main event a PPV. Ever

[Ben]

I get that the fans are turning up for Rhea in the main event so burning a good opponent would be idiotic but at least go with someone who can have a decent and SAFE match. Rhea is just amazing in every sense of the word but this has a more than zero percent chance of going tits up, which they don’t need to risk right now.

[Baz]

Elimination Chamber live at 10am tomorrow? Might stick it on.

[Dark Soldier]

I'm getting up for it like a fucking geek cunt.

[Ian]

I think the matches should all be at least decent but it does seem a particularly predictable set of results.

Also I'm all for Trips' shorter shows but four matches feels a little stingy when you're taking the show to Australia and you haven't even found space for Bronson Reed on the card. I know they want Paul in the chamber to a) jump off a pod and b) maybe set up his 'Mania feud but I feel like given he ain't winning the match I'd have been tempted to have him vs. Reed for the US title. I think that'd be a perfect match of Reed getting to be the de facto babyface while Paul bumps like a mofo for him but then Paul gets some good heat when he wins. And then a think five matches would just be a nicer number for taking the show to Aus.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Grayson Waller effect which leads to a match between him and someone.

[Ian]

I think they've already confirmed Grayson Waller Effect with.... I want to say Cody?

EDIT: Cody and Seth Google tells me.

[7om]

Will be interesting to see who they have win the mens Elimination Chamber. I'd like LA Knight but I bet it'll be someone boring like Orton or Lashley.

[Waffdon]

I think Bronson Reed has time off because his missus has or is about to give birth. Only reason I can think as to why he’s not on the card. They’ve even put the other Aussie lassie on the pre show to get her big day out.

Think both Chamber matches should be v decent and will both have to last near enough an hour as there’s no danger Nia Jax is doing near 20 mins in the ring.

Not sure how that Grayson Waller segment will go down. You’d imagine he would be cheered heavily but so will the other two so a bit of an odd dynamic

[Waffdon]

Will be interesting to see who they have win the mens Elimination Chamber. I'd like LA Knight but I bet it'll be someone boring like Orton or Lashley.

McIntyre has to be about 1/10 shot. He’s the only guy to have pinned Cody Rhodes outside of Roman Reigns. There’s no way they’d waste that. Presume well then unfortunately get a triple threat with Sami Zayn.

[Gray Fox]

Will be interesting to see who they have win the mens Elimination Chamber. I'd like LA Knight but I bet it'll be someone boring like Orton or Lashley.

Surely Drew is nailed on here?

Logan feels like he's there to set up a Mania match with likely KO but maybe LA. Bobby I don't think so. He in WWE always falls into this weird spot where he's not enough for the big belts but too big for the US/Intercontinental belts.

Outside shot Randy wins, but most likely Drew.

[Waffdon]

Orton will be facing Solo at Wrestlemania if I had to guess, which is a massive shame.

I have no idea why Bobby Lashley is in the match. Utterly pointless. Not like he’s in there for a big spot. Will probably have him spear Logan Paul through a pod

[7om]

Not that fussed about Drew winning the Chamber. The way the last few weeks have gone on tv, it would make sense for Drew to be Cody's first feud as champion after Mania.

[wullie]

I could see the talk show thing end up having Austin Theory getting involved and they turn it into a tag team match



Playa

[Ian]

I was gonna say that but Rollins surely doesn't wrestle before Mania now in case he gets actual re-crocked instead of simply kayfabe crocked.


Playa

https://media.tenor.com/6bFS1V6uTFIAAAAM/teddy-long-wwe.gif

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Surely Drew is nailed on here?

Logan feels like he's there to set up a Mania match with likely KO but maybe LA. Bobby I don't think so. He in WWE always falls into this weird spot where he's not enough for the big belts but too big for the US/Intercontinental belts.

Outside shot Randy wins, but most likely Drew.

The only want Drew doesn't win is if they have CM Punk come and cost him the match to further their rivalry.

You cost me my Mania moment, I cost you.

Don't see it happening though.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GHF23SpWkAAnDj4?format=jpg

:cool:

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Stratton to moonsault off a pod please.

[Waffdon]

Any stream links?

[phonics]

baked.tv/wrestling

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Looked like Becky was a little late kicking out there.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Stratton :cool:

[Baz]

First time I’ve witnessed Tiffany Stratton. Hello!

[Dark Soldier]

That Tiffany Stratton is both fit and can perform. Rare.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Bullshit.

[Baz]

I mean, bye!

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

First time I’ve witnessed Tiffany Stratton. Hello!


That Tiffany Stratton is both fit and can perform. Rare.

She was incredible in NXT and she's only been wrestling for like 2 years.

The talent is unreal.

[Waffdon]

Crowd only care about her lol. She shouldn’t have been eliminated 2nd but whatevs

[Baz]

That Tiffany Stratton is both fit and can perform. Rare.https://media.tenor.com/uMM_eQr8DUwAAAAM/britt-baker-britt-baker-aew.gif

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

That's the second time Becky didn't kick out quick enough.

[Waffdon]

She was incredible in NXT and she's only been wrestling for like 2 years.

The talent is unreal.

She’s been wrestling for 2 years and already better than everyone in the ring :lol:

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

She's surely winning the MITB.

[Waffdon]

Having 3 faces at the end doesn’t really make much sense. Suppose they can’t be making any of the 3 left look weak, especially Bianca.

[Waffdon]

Beckywinslol

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I lost interest after Stratton got eliminated. Meh.

[Dark Soldier]

She was incredible in NXT and she's only been wrestling for like 2 years.

The talent is unreal.

Highly highly talented. Her and Morgan in a sandwich plz thanks

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Highly highly talented. Her and Morgan in a sandwich plz thanks

A man of good taste.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

"DOM IS A WANKER" :cool:

[Baz]

Cody :cool:

How is he so over it’s crazy. What a guy

[Waffdon]

They’re really trying to waste as much time as possible here lol

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Teddy Long is here in spirit.

[Waffdon]

Theory would make a great face. I’ve seen how charismatic he is in interviews and stuff outside of WWE to know he’s wasted as a heel. Still barely 26 though so plenty time

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I liked how he was still saying "SMELLLLLL" whilst being put through the sign.

[Waffdon]

20 mins to get the match started is some effort

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

The thank you Bobby chants were cracking.

[Dark Soldier]

Lashley looked good tbf. That spear. Set him up as the Brock monster.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Shit ending.

[Baz]

What happened? My internets packed in

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Logan got eliminated by Randall via an RKO.

Drew then took over and started battering Randy and was going for a Claymore but Randy's back gave out. Drew then took his time and Randy went for an RKO before Logan (who was not removed from the chamber) smashed him with his brass knuckles.

[Dark Soldier]

Damn Nia is shite but she can step on my balls anytime of the day.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

This match has gone on for far too long.

[RiyadhVolt]

Upcoming WWE Event in Riyadh Saudi Arabia?

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Are you getting tickets, mate?

[Ben]

Saudi bots are a change of pace from Russian bots, at least.

[Baz]

Speaking of tickets, I bought two tickets for AEW All In when they first came out on Ticketmaster but then checked later in the day and was able to buy two better tickets. So I had four.

Last time I bought three and managed to list one for resale on Ticketmaster, which sold quickly for what I paid.

However, this time (I’ve checked with chat) the event hasn’t enabled relisting tickets you’ve bought, some I’m unable to sell my two spares. Is it likely they’ll enable relisting closer to the event (August) or am I shit out of luck and going to have to risk being scammed by selling them elsewhere and using the ‘transfer ticket’ option that Ticketmaster does?

Anyone here want them? :stamford: I paid £432.75 each for them and would happily take a square £800 at this point.

[Gray Fox]

It's likely a case that this year hasn't sold out yet(if it will at all). Unless you really need that money back right now I reckon you should hold on and see closer to the time.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

£400 a pop? lol.

[Baz]

£400 a pop? lol.

The better seats were over £600 each. I don’t even watch wrestling anymore. :lol:

Watching Elimination Chamber LIVE (on tv) before reminded me how fun it was though so definitely want to go. Don’t book a holiday Mike

[Waffdon]

Idk why you’d buy extra as there’s not a chance it sells out

[Shindig]

Maybe the sidekick's fella is into wrestling?

[Baz]

Idk why you’d buy extra as there’s not a chance it sells outMoved from the red seats to the green:
https://i.imgur.com/7NphkLf.png

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

That's a lot of seats blocked out for the hard cam.

[Ian]

Just watching the show now. I thought the womens chamber was fun. Everybody got a chance to look good, Bianca took too very snug-looking powerbomb bumps and that closing stretch was mega. I'm not necessarily gonna say Stratton is a Ripley-level can't-miss prospect but she's definitely somebody who only won't do brilliantly if either she turns out to be a total moron or WWE totally beef the booking with her (like Vince tried to with Rhea but she's too good.)

Also I'd never thought before that Rodriguez (who I really like) is especially make-up-y but whether she had different or just less make up tonight she looked very different. Did enjoy her monster segment of the match though and loved the rebound powerbomb thing to Belair (whose ring gear was fucking glorious, by the way.)

[Ian]

Tag match: I just fucking love both Bate and Dunne and want them to have both a proper tag push but also lots of single matches against the best WWE has to offer them. I thought this match was lots of fun and I'm glad they made Priest look a bit of a killer. They need to seriously build him up if we're gonna buy the cash in but I thought they did well by him here.

Also Cole is much, much better these days without the insane rapist bellowing through an earpiece but suggesting Burning Hammer is a Bate/Dunne invention. C'mon Maggle.

[Ian]

So Cody / Rick for night 1 main event? Probably with some HHH vs. Bryan type stip?

Whatever that ends up being, turns out you can have a decent Grayson Waller Effect if you put two actual stars involved in a good story in there.

[Ian]

Big fan of them having the picture on the crowd for LA Knight's entrance hoping for a wild reaction and the biggest was some middle aged dude doing a fist pump. :D

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Just watching the show now. I thought the womens chamber was fun. Everybody got a chance to look good, Bianca took too very snug-looking powerbomb bumps and that closing stretch was mega. I'm not necessarily gonna say Stratton is a Ripley-level can't-miss prospect but she's definitely somebody who only won't do brilliantly if either she turns out to be a total moron or WWE totally beef the booking with her (like Vince tried to with Rhea but she's too good.)

Also I'd never thought before that Rodriguez (who I really like) is especially make-up-y but whether she had different or just less make up tonight she looked very different. Did enjoy her monster segment of the match though and loved the rebound powerbomb thing to Belair (whose ring gear was fucking glorious, by the way.)

Raquel wasn't actually injured, she was raking time off because she has a skin condition which causes severe reactions. I guess today was a bad reaction as her face looked really puffy.

[Ian]

Oh I didn't realise that. It genuinely wasn't a dig, as I said I didn't know what it was just thought she looked different so that'd explain it.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Yeah I didn't know until this morning when I saw her entrance.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

"According to the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology, MCAS is “a condition in which the patient experiences repeated episodes of the symptoms of anaphylaxis – allergic symptoms such as hives, swelling, low blood pressure, difficulty breathing and severe diarrhea. High levels of mast cell mediators are released during those episodes.”

Sounds fucking brutal.

[Ian]

Yeah fuck that.

[Ian]

Do we know if Keith was actually injured or was it just a bit? Google seems vague but it really caused the middle of the match to slow to a crawl.

[Ian]

Alright I assume it was a bit but it really slowed down that chunk of the match. Orton vs. Paul isn't a development I expected from that match.

I love that McIntyre isn't actively cheating much (yet) in this heel turn but is capitalising on others being jumped ruthlessly.

Him and Seth will be a great match.

[Ian]

Nia has been better in this run and not, y'know, actively hurting people but she's still got a pretty hard ceiling. Problem is if you want to keep pushing her as the unbeatable monster you probably have to actually have her hold a world title for a bit.

Regardless, the match was decent enough because Ripley is incredible and made something of it.

[Ben]

I hate gimmick PPVs (obviously) but my overwhelming thought is that they need to bin this off. Using it as the excuse to set up a match for the second world titles at Mania a) belittles the Royal Rumble and b) leads to lazy booking, in that they have an excuse to go into the PPV cold with storylines because they rely on just the cage structure to create the drama and also use it to lazily set up filler matches amongst the losers for Mania.

It’s been 22 years and they still haven’t beat the first Survivor Series effort. Not to mention the Chamber itself is watered down to fuck now.

I know the Aussies are like us, so starved of big time wrestling that they’ll go nuts for anything, but yesterday was a big miss for me.

[Waffdon]

Aye, it wasn’t great. I turned off after the woman’s chamber and then seen a bit of the Waller segment. WWE just can’t do gimmick matches anymore (aside from maybe a ladder match)

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I think they'd do better with the gimmick matches if they didn't trot them out constantly.

For instance HIAC matches were great when used sparingly to end a really big rivalry then they just started giving them to us like crazy.

[Shindig]

Same goes for TLC matches. Where's the magic in a whole PPV around it? Admittedly, TLC was a very specific thing related to three specific tag teams. It came together in a way most gimmicks maybe don't anymore.

[Ben]

I think they'd do better with the gimmick matches if they didn't trot them out constantly.

For instance HIAC matches were great when used sparingly to end a really big rivalry then they just started giving them to us like crazy.

That’s exactly my point. Make the gimmick make sense.

Whatever happened to the regular cage match? It’s perfect for when you’ve got a chickenshit heel with loads of backup (eg. Dominik).

[phonics]

Decided to look at some All-In tickets. Only sections where you'd get a view that wasn't just watching a big screen was 700 quid or 2.2k. Don't see the value of paying to go to an event and have the same viewing experience as if I'd bnought it on fite.tv

[phonics]

BTw are there any RevPro nerds in here. I'm in London next week and I saw there's a show on Sunday. Is it worth my time considering I'd be passing up a free carride back to Worcester and catching the train so i'd be incurring a cost on top of the ticket.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I wouldn't mind knowing a bit about RevPro. They do a lot of events in the next town over and they've got one in two months that I'm thinking of getting tickets to.

[phonics]

Next town over I’d definitely go. Live wrestling in those small rooms is great even if the level is pretty low.

[Baz]

Decided to look at some All-In tickets. Only sections where you'd get a view that wasn't just watching a big screen was 700 quid or 2.2k. Don't see the value of paying to go to an event and have the same viewing experience as if I'd bnought it on fite.tv

Cos it’s awesome. The view is better than you think, but I did spend the first few matches conditioning myself not to watch the screen.

Do you feel the same about football and other sports, where the ‘view from home’ is better so why bother?


Also if Ospreay or ZSJ or Session Moth might be on, you should deffo go revpro

[Ben]

Ospreay seems to be done with RevPro for a while at least. He put Oku over big on his way out a couple of weeks ago.

[Ben]

1762312078352597180

:cool:

[Waffdon]

:D

Everything about him is amazing.

Gunther/Priest at ‘mania?

[Waffdon]

Actually maybe not, HHH teasing multiple different folk for him. Wouldnt be against Gable finally going over.

Also - that black security guard took a chair straight in the face from Rhodes and the Street Fight was also pretty good compared to usual. PG ERA OVAH

[Ian]

Fucking lol if they have Priest do a Theory and cash in on Gunther (or whoever beats Gunther) for the IC title.

Because that's where my head went when I saw in the review JD talking about the IC title.

[Waffdon]

They teased Priest, Gable and Zayn from what I seen. Wouldnt be against either of the last two.

[wullie]

Gable would be my pick ideally, his stuff with Gunther before shows they could really have something with him.

[Ben]

In the effort of playing fair I'll pose this as a question rather than a statement (because I hate everything), has the briefcase actually served to elevate anyone in recent years? I feel like Dolph Ziggler was the last good one. The other "success stories" since then just used it as a prop because they would have got over just as much without it.

Much like Elimination Chamber and Hell in a Cell, MITB needs binning off as a regular event and used sparingly when they can actually build some heat for one. But I guess the marketing around it is too big now to throw in the bin.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Speaking of MITB, Zayn is the favourite with Stratton (correct choice) on the women's side.

[Ben]

Stratton is money. Absolutely insane she's only a couple of years in. They'll crown her at next year's WrestleMania by beating Rhea (who will be unbeaten until then).

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

She was signed by the WWE in August 2021, she did have a bit of training before that but it's unreal how well she's taken to it.

Only 74 matches total in her career too.

[Ian]

I'm not against the Chamber being an annual thing in principle but they're clearly short of ideas for it.

MITB, both the match and their attempts to build stories around the briefcase, have been very tired for ages and probably need binned off at least for a while. More people have been actively harmed by their MITB runs in the last decade than gained from it I'd say. Not least because they can't get their heads around the idea of a proper babyfsce cash in. Strowman was still massively over when he won and should have just said at whatever PPV (let's say Summerslam for the sake of argument) he would be challenging for the world title and then you build the story out of a heel trying to weasel out of. But alas, that was the year that a whole 12 months of booking was sacrificed at the altar of Reigns vs. Lesnar and 400 F5 kickouts.

Big E similarly should have just got sick of Bobbo battering Kofi and Woods when he wasn't there and told him he was having a match for the title not doing the end of match run in thing because it's just harder to get that right for babyfaces.

Just bring back KOTR (/QOTR) tournaments and do them properly over a month or two. Loads of TV wrestling booking sorted, ways to set up stories and build challengers over time, etc. And then have the KOTR winner get their title shot at whatever PPV every year.

[Ian]

And on gimmicks more generally HIAC should only be to end bitter feuds but at least they're being more sparing with those currently.

[Gray Fox]

Fucking lol if they have Priest do a Theory and cash in on Gunther (or whoever beats Gunther) for the IC title.

I actually think this is where it will have to go. After about 10 years of heel champion in Reigns, you can't let Priest be the one who cashes in on him. You also can't let him immediately take the title from Cody either, should he win. So that's 1 belt down.

Same problem occurs with the other big belt. By the time we get to Mania(Rollins wont be having a match until then) he'll have had that belt for nearly a year himself. If he loses to Drew, you can't really have a heel immediately oust another heel. I will say though that this is the most likely option if it is for a big belt. Maybe you have Rollins win and then have Priest cash in on him?

I feel like they wasted the big chance with him during the Rollins matches with Balor. The briefcase has become a bit crap though. The last good one was 2016 with Ambrose.

Since then we had Baron Corbin lose on cash in. Brawn having a no-contest in a Hell in a Cell match(lol). Lesnar winning it for reasons. Then the last 3 have all been influenced by Bobby Lashley. Miz had Lashley batter Drew then take it. Big E then cashed in on Lashley. Then another cash in following a Lashley attack, but Theory still lost. All of those were basically pointless.
Problem is they all have the thing in common where the guy winning, you can tell just isn't a top of the card guy, so after the briefcase business just goes back to the midcard. I feel Priest will be the same.

[phonics]

Just bring back KOTR (/QOTR) tournaments and do them properly over a month or two. Loads of TV wrestling booking sorted, ways to set up stories and build challengers over time, etc. And then have the KOTR winner get their title shot at whatever PPV every year.

You should check out AEW. Every 3 months the entire booking goes to shit or someones knee explodes or CM Punk punches someone and then it's tourney time baby.
.

[Ben]

Not least because they can't get their heads around the idea of a proper babyfsce cash in. Strowman was still massively over when he won and should have just said at whatever PPV (let's say Summerslam for the sake of argument) he would be challenging for the world title and then you build the story out of a heel trying to weasel out of.

Ding ding fucking ding. It's not that complicated is it.

Between the two briefcases, they could probably wheel out that trope near enough once a year if they had an appropriate heel champion.

[Ben]

You should check out AEW. Every 3 months the entire booking goes to shit or someones knee explodes or CM Punk punches someone and then it's tourney time baby.
.

Tony is definitely due one (maybe for the tag titles after Sting retires as champion). The Continental Classic (what a lol that was) has been his only tournament since last summer. I think someone has shamed him for it because that is a long barren spell in his world.

[Gray Fox]

Of all of the womens winners, only two haven't cashed in on the same night. Ignoring the Asuka workaround. Getting past that would be start too.

[Ben]

Of all of the womens winners, only two haven't cashed in on the same night. Ignoring the Asuka workaround. Getting past that would be start too.

Refer to Ian's post for your answer. They've not got a clue how to book it and only introduced it in the name of equality (see: women's Royal Rumble (the only palatable one), women's Elimination Chamber, women having a Hell in a Cell match at the PPV after a five minute feud). People probably won't agree with me but by striving to book women as completely equal to men, it makes it all worse. Women often just can't physically do what men do to so not only do these things often make the women look worse than they otherwise would, it also waters down the men's booking too. After seeing the women's EC match on Saturday, I just could not be arsed with the men's effort as it was bound to be the same crap regurgitated from not just men's matches in years previous but also from the women's match an hour earlier. I said it on Royal Rumble weekend, nobody wants a steak dinner right after having a steak dinner.

Going off on a tangent again soz.

[Ian]

The Ambrose one worked because the whole idea was he was still so not.over Rollins that he wanted to screw him over in the worst way, they could have done that with Big E and had him cash in after Lashley vs. Kofi, say, where Bob wins but also won't stop battering Kofi and E does it in a rage but at least under Vince they just never put that much thought into it.

[Ben]

If there was a heel authority figure (potentially Aldis down the line) you could go the route of him denying a babyface his rightful title shots so he just says "fuck you then I'll win MITB" and then you've actually got the anticipation of a cash-in actually being something you're looking forward to.

Having said that, I think it's invariably a heel prop and that's why WWE struggle with it, because they've never booked heels well. Like ever in their history, because they're a babyface-first champion promotion (whereas the NWA was the opposite). Outside of Triple H 2000-01, Reigns in prime Bloodline arc isn't far off their best, which says a lot.

[Ian]

Basically the thing they're good at more consistently than anything is booking the chase. Actual reigns not so much. Reigns was good for ages but has been treading water for ages too, McIntyre was their best babyfsce champ in yonks despite having no crowd to play to. Few and far between for actually paying off good title wins with good runs with the belt.

If Strowman had won the belt back I. 2017 or whenever it was there's no chance they'd have landed a monster babyfsce title run even if it was short. Literally zero chance.

[wullie]

My favourite was Daniel Bryan doing the heroic thing of announcing he'll cash it in at Wrestlemania and then swiftly changing his mind when Big Show and whoever were knocked out, kicked off his whole shitbag character.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Refer to Ian's post for your answer. They've not got a clue how to book it and only introduced it in the name of equality (see: women's Royal Rumble (the only palatable one), women's Elimination Chamber, women having a Hell in a Cell match at the PPV after a five minute feud). People probably won't agree with me but by striving to book women as completely equal to men, it makes it all worse. Women often just can't physically do what men do to so not only do these things often make the women look worse than they otherwise would, it also waters down the men's booking too. After seeing the women's EC match on Saturday, I just could not be arsed with the men's effort as it was bound to be the same crap regurgitated from not just men's matches in years previous but also from the women's match an hour earlier. I said it on Royal Rumble weekend, nobody wants a steak dinner right after having a steak dinner.

Going off on a tangent again soz.

I'd happily polish off two steak dinners tbh, your metaphor is horseshit.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Also, we seem to be forgetting that Otis won MITB once.

I think WWE would like us to forget so job well done.

[Ben]

Turkey dinner, then. I'm sure we can all agree turkey is wank.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

1762269303561179137

They should have made it a storyline.

[Ian]

If Vince was still there that'd be his gimmick for the next ten years.

[Shindig]

Surely one of the many ring-putter-uppers (I'm not changing that description) and light fitting guys have the tools to solve this problem.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Yeah but they couldn't access the hinges and other screws.

They managed to get the door vent taken out so The Miz could crawl out.

[Disco]

He's more entertaining locked in a room than in the ring so leave him there I say.

[Shindig]

They were testing out a new match type. Doom in a Room.

[Ben]

Where’s Kane to pull it off the hinges when you need him?