October: Halloween football edition

[Kikó]

No football happened yet in October so we start the month with Europa League action tonight with notable fixtures such as:

Otherwise, ten hag carries on his Bald football masterclass away at Porto and Rangers host Lyon. Spurs mate travels to Turkey to play against some bin men. Chelsea hosts Gent in a blockbuster tie for the UEFA Conference and Shamrock host the Cypriots.

Later in the month, beautiful footballing side Aston Villa will pump United, before we have another fucking international break.

[niko_cee]

If there was ever a 'tough away game' you'd want as United manager then surely it would be the trip to Villa Park. Don't they almost always win there, somehow?

New contract for baldy in the international break.

[Kikó]

No Scott Maradomminay to save us this time.

[thommo]

Let's not forget the mighty TNS travelling to Fiorentina tonight. First game for a team from the Welsh league system in a European group stage. And they're still probably one of the worst supported clubs in the Cymru Premier.

[Giggles]

Need a good 8 or 9 Rovers injuries tonight.

[Kikó]

Let's not forget the mighty TNS travelling to Fiorentina tonight. First game for a team from the Welsh league system in a European group stage. And they're still probably one of the worst supported clubs in the Cymru Premier.

Sorry I thought I'd included all the British clubs.

[SvN]

I just looked and was surprised how poor their attendences are, there are 5 teams that regularly have higher attendances, and Colywn Bay get more than double what they get. Are they badly supported because they're based in England?

[thommo]

They lost a lot of their fanbase from Llansantffraid (the village where the initial team was based) when they moved to Oswestry after merging with Oswestry Town in the 2000s. Since then, they've been the only full-time club in the Welsh Prem which has allowed them an incredible period of dominance but no real fanbase to enjoy it. Llansantffraid have even started a new club to play on their old ground that is now in the 3rd tier of Welsh football.

They're basically hated throughout the Welsh system as they win everything (they lost a league game the other week for the first time in nearly 600 days), pay much greater wages on full-time deals and now play away from their initial home (in England).

[John Arne]

I always have a little chuckle when remembering that the best team in Wales is English :D

Perhaps Wrexham should go back into the Welsh system... quicker European football, at least.

[Yevrah]

Given you must get about £3 for winning the Welsh league and the aforementioned attendence levels, how are they being bankrolled?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Some bloke had a business (Total Network Solutions), he bought the club, which must have cost about a fiver at the time, and title-sponsored it with the business. They did well and won stuff (hence Jeff Stelling's legendary 'They'll be dancing in the streets of Total Network Solutions tonight'). He then sold the business to BT, who ended the sponsorship of the club, so he kept the TNS branding with 'The New Saints', but continued to own the club. So presumably he's bankrolling them to a far greater extent than any other Welsh club, even though they are in essence a village team from Oswestry.

[Gray Fox]

Apparently when he took over they had a turnover of £40k a year, to now where it is over £2m a year.

[Giggles]

With that many changed Halgrímsson must have actually picked this one himself. Such a pity Lyon didn't hold on to O'Brien, another one bites the dust on the bench in England.


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[randomlegend]

Casemiro - Eriksen pivot, Ten Hag trying to get sacked.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If music be the food of love, play on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t28V9HiDRX4

[Jimmy Floyd]

Fucking hell. Cercle Brugge 6 St Gallen 2. That is a STATEMENT win. Timely reminder for Maresca of how tough this is going to be.

[Kikó]

We're back

[Jimmy Floyd]

The lady on co-comms, presumably reeling from whatever bodily dimensions Miles has awarded her, declares that 'Stamford Bridge is becoming a fortress again'. And with Brighton having scored just twice at the weekend, while Crystal Palace were restricted to a single measly point upon their recent visit, who could argue?

[Kikó]

We're back

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

lol.

[Waffdon]

Samu and Duran both linked with Chelsea all summer and have both been shit hot since the start of the season. That scouting network :drool:

[Gray Fox]

The scouting network seems to have been sign every player available everywhere.

[Luke Emia]

De Ligt is just Harry Maguire with a fancy Dutch name.

[niko_cee]

Chants of "who are ya" ring out from Chelsea supporters after Christopher Nkunku's sharp finish in the box.

At least they seem to have found their level.

[Dquincy]

Rangers following Celtic's lead with getting a food fisting too.

Also, Chelsea are becoming a quite likeable team. I'm calling top 4 finish this year. It's all going to 'click' for them. I can sense it.

[Lofty]

Yeah the scouting network is the same as FM when you take over a conference side and your scout tells you Messi could do a job.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Guy Verhofstadt, the photographer Dirk Braeckman (born 1958), Jan van Eyck... can you hear me Jan van Eyck? Probably not, all told.

[Gray Fox]

As funny as it is to see fraud boy sent off again, that really is the kind of stuff VAR needs to be dealing with. He's waved a boot near someone and got sent off for it.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Another new contract for the bald fraud?

[niko_cee]

Maguaradonna.

[phonics]

I know it's a cesspit but it's very weird to me that a national broadcaster of Champions League is trying to ragebait for interactions like this

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(Arsenal played Porto in the Round of 16, there were no points available)

[Ben]

“There were no points available”

You lost the game ffs :D

[phonics]

Yes so if we’d won how many points would we have got.

[Manc]

Guimaraes - 3.

[-james-]

Safe to say they've smashed it out the park with the "ragebait" then.

[Kikó]

24 times United have conceded 3 or more under ten hag. TWENTY FOUR TIMES.

[Giggles]

That draw last night earned Rovers more money than they'd get for winning the league.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Engagement Eric at TNT Sports having a massive Friday night blowout with his bonus payment.

[Luke Emia]

24 times United have conceded 3 or more under ten hag. TWENTY FOUR TIMES.

Yeah, but they've got more points away at Porto than Arsenal this year.

[Lofty]

More booking points.

[Shindig]

Rob Elliot has left Gateshead for the glittering lights of Crawley Town.

[SincereTheRebel]

24 times United have conceded 3 or more under ten hag. TWENTY FOUR TIMES.

That does not sound that bad.

Edit: 124 games manged so far. 3 goals were conceded every 5 games.

[Kikó]

That does not sound that bad.

Edit: 124 games manged so far. 3 goals were conceded every 5 games.


https://youtu.be/12j2Esnn-eY?si=dEUEydD_8foVipxJ

[niko_cee]

:D

They've just got to stick to the plan and bounce back on Sunday.

[Gray Fox]

Pogba can play again as of March 2025. United could use a midfielder like him.

[Danny]

1842102412607156228

[Magic]

Sigh. Meslier.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Mourinho and Everton is a match made in heaven (unlike Mourinho and Fenerbahce, it seems). Make it happen.

[Yevrah]

Mourinho to Everton, Sir Gareth to Man Utd and I might wank myself to death during the international break.

[niko_cee]

Guardiola said City had asked for the delay because of the club's involvement with the Club World Cup, but said the Premier League would not accept the request.

The final of the 32-team event is set for 13 July at the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey, creating a gap of either four or five weeks to the start of the 2025-26 Premier League season.

Three of those weeks will be mandatory rest periods for the players.

"The Premier League has not allowed us to postpone the first two games for our recovery," said Guardiola. "Thank you so much.

"I think the club asked the league to postpone one or two or three weeks so we can have a holiday after the [Club] World Cup but it is absolutely not allowed. The Premier League say yes to us? No. Absolutely not."

However, after talking to officials at City and the Premier League, the BBC has learned there has been no formal request.

Please just get them/him in the sea Independent Panel.

[John Arne]

Yeah 1) Why would the PL accommodate some new hyped up friendly tournament in the US
And 2) City appeared to have completely fabricated the story.

Shitshow.

[niko_cee]

As you can imagine the comments section was a "wait until he finds out when the League Two season starts" banterfest.

I see Miami might get byed into the shitshow for obvious reasons.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If the large clubs (I'm fed up with 'big clubs') had any balls they would just send youth teams to the FIFA jamboree and bow out to Necaxa in round 1 as is traditional.

[Gray Fox]

Lets see if Slotball can cope with the 12:30 kick off after a midweek game.

Good to see some rotation. Szoboszlai has run himself into the ground in the last few weeks.

[Baz]

Konate and van Dijk feels like an era we’ll look back on like Rio and Vidic, Keown and Adams, Terry and Carvalho, and Hyypia and Henchoz. Absolutely formidable.

[Baz]

Also, what’s with those shorts?

[Gray Fox]

Ibou when fully fit is a colossus. Upemecano must have some serious dirt on Deschamps to get in over him.

[Gray Fox]

This feels like a replica of the Wolves game. Up and cruising against a team who don't look up for it. Just seemingly refuse to go for the kill.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Every time I turn on BT at the moment they keep relentlessly pumping this pay per view light heavyweight fight between two Russians in Saudi Arabia. Can I guess that no fucker has bought it yet? Are they surprised?

Sorry, TNT.

[Waffdon]

Konate and van Dijk feels like an era we’ll look back on like Rio and Vidic, Keown and Adams, Terry and Carvalho, and Hyypia and Henchoz. Absolutely formidable.

Van Dijk is 3 years away from retirement. Let’s be level headed here.

[niko_cee]

Not that I had any idea it was on but I would assume at that weight it would be Bivol v Beterbiev, which, from a purist's point of view should be a cracking fight, so it'll probably do worse numbers than an average Jake Paul promotion. It's not really sensible to try and PPV 95% of boxing but hey ho, they do.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

87th minute equaliser.

[randomlegend]

and Hyypia and Henchoz.

Lol

[Jimmy Floyd]

South Norwood Rovers look pretty hopeless this year. Might need to bring Roy back in January to keep them up.

Liverpool my current favourites for the league championship.

[John Arne]

Could do with us upping the tempo and actually getting a second. We saw this sitting on a 1-0 lead fuck us up last season way too much.

[Waffdon]

Liverpool are just the new Arsenal.

Chelsea and Brighton just a couple of the few clubs left trying to entertain fans

[Waffdon]

Allison is ridiculously injury prone for a keeper

[Gray Fox]

Jaros to glory.

[phonics]

Liverpool are just the new Arsenal.

What does this mean exactly?

[Waffdon]

What does this mean exactly?

Dull.

[Gray Fox]

Yeah Phonics. It's much better to have one of your players score a millionty pointless goals and finish 6th.

[phonics]

Dull.

Chelsea fan claiming moral victories. How things change.

[Giggles]

Is Kelleher not even 2nd choice now? He's some idiot. A rich one, but an idiot.

[Gray Fox]

Nah he just had a virus is all. He'll be in goal for a while now by the looks of Alisson at the end.

[niko_cee]

Dull.

Highest xG in the league.

I think they're more that side who starts well due to a soft schedule, so it will be interesting to see how they go after the internationals. Zero draws is the true path to glory.


Allison is ridiculously injury prone for a keeper

He really is, is that what held him back from being in anyway known prior to being 25? Probably sensible to have got that Georgian in for next season.

[Gray Fox]

To be fair to him at 25 he was starting for Roma. He was even in goal the time we smashed 5 past them at Anfield.

[niko_cee]

Yeah, but wasn't that his first season for them? Dunno, just seems like for such a good player it is odd that he was almost completely unknown until he was 25.

He only really had one proper season in the 4 years he was at Internacional going off his wiki.

[SincereTheRebel]

Seeing players in those bras. I know they are their for some modern day tracking of distance while they are playing. Cant they add some chip that will sort out this whole offside thing? Same technology as when the ball crosses the line.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'd certainly be all in favour of the ref squeezing all the players' nipples before kick off to make sure their chips are in place.

[Gray Fox]

Seeing players in those bras. I know they are their for some modern day tracking of distance while they are playing. Cant they add some chip that will sort out this whole offside thing? Same technology as when the ball crosses the line.

Fine for something that doesnt really change shape like a ball(bar when it is kicked) it works, but I think semi auto is all you can get here because people come in all shapes and sizes and can twist/turn/lean.

[Ben]

Newcastle need kicking out of the league for that collar on their kit. Abhorrent.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Lol at Gordon.

[Ben]

Goodison is always box office when they’re pumped up.

[Shindig]

Osula would've buried that. :moop:

[Gray Fox]

This is one of those where Gordon is too desperate to score and will try too hard.

[Shindig]

On the plus side, I kind of expected Everton to beat us.

Gateshead 1-0 Wealdstone. Caretaker manager Ben Clark off to a winner.

[Gray Fox]

A lot of nice build up wasted by not really having a proper centre forward in there.

[Shindig]

Aye, which makes me more annoyed Osula stayed benched. We brought him in specifically for when Wilson and Isak are crocked but Howe's not a fan of him yet.

[niko_cee]

Manchester United are interested in appointing Bayer Leverkusen boss Xabi Alonso to replace Erik ten Hag and are willing to wait until the summer for the former Liverpool midfielder.

:drool:

Full circle from the infamous network game.

[Manc]

Massively regretting tuning in to Villa vs Utd.

[John Arne]

That Mainoo tackle could have been a lot worse.

[randomlegend]

This is eyebleedingly bad.

[John Arne]

Fuck me... just ref the game without the walkie talkies.

[Manc]

The sport is dead.

[Giggles]

17:45 RTE2, watch some real soccer. It might be incredibly shit but at least it's real.

Seriously though, you'd honestly be better watching your local team down the divisions these days. There's fuck all good at the top level any more.

[John Arne]

That was awful. Two pretty bad teams and ref that wanted to be the centre of attention... just crap.

[niko_cee]

Never fear, two ridiculous high line just the way we play mate teams coming up.

[SincereTheRebel]

13 minutes of stoppage time in the chelski game and each gk has pulled off some mega saves. Forrest down to 10 men since minute 75.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Stamford Bridge remains a fortress. You shall not pass.

5 live reckon Nicolas Jackson threw a punch while a substitute, true to form.

[niko_cee]

Are Chelsea 100% away from home this season or did they chuck one of their European games? Servette?

[Jimmy Floyd]

We lost 2-1 in Servette I think.

We are a very 'need space in behind' team, which was what made Hurzeler's pathetic display last week all the more embarrassing. We will get wildly found out in the second round of games. Could be a very long January and February. Hopefully get enough points before then to inch our way to top 6 or whatever is realistic.

[Kikó]

I do hope that's the end of bald. He's been given enough time and money and it's absolutely terrible.

[SincereTheRebel]

Gazzanigga has just saved three penalties in one game all from different takers. His team won 2-1

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[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Gazzanigga has just saved three penalties in one game all from different takers. His team won 2-1

Due to a penalty in the 99th minute which they gave to Stuani.

Gazzaniga deserved to take it.

[niko_cee]

It's just the culture of the club mate.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Are you Everton in disguise?

[niko_cee]

The football might not have been scintillating, but watching the United game on MotD I was a big fan of the 'cut to the sirs' shot. Poor old Sir Alec at the end, stuck next to Lee Mack.

[Magic]

Jesus another international break? Fuck off.

[Gray Fox]

Manchester City failed in their bid to sue the Premier League for not allowing their sportswashing dollars/pounds. Some "small amendments" have been agreed on, but otherwise told to get to fuck.

Old Matey Boy in his MCR gear will no doubt be crying in the nearest press conference.

Interestingly we had Chelsea, Everton and Newcastle, all act as witnesses for City. The Premier League had basically everyone else.

[Kikó]

Not according to Martin Samuel


Unlawful, unlawful, unlawful, unfair, unfair, unreasonable, unreasonable. The seven conclusions of the arbitration panel governing Manchester City’s case against the Premier League make for sobering reading. Yet, even sober, the hangover is going to last a very long time.

It is not just Associated Party Transaction (APT) rulings that must now be revisited — this decision made them obsolete and unusable overnight. The whole concept of Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR) is also in the bin, now that shareholder loans, too, are to be judged related-party deals.

That is City’s big win, in many ways their payback. Their accusation was that the league and its members acted like a cartel by introducing rules specifically intended to curb the potential of a minority of clubs. They pointed out that many clubs benefited from interest-free shareholder loans. If that wasn’t a related-party transaction, they argued, what was? And because the arbitration was carried out by serious people, who listen to reason and logic, they agreed.

Imagine if every loan given to a club by one of its owners was charged, as is standard, at between 8 and 10 per cent, if it could be obtained at all? We would be looking at PSR failings across the board. And now we are. Wrapped up in legalese is a seismic verdict for football. It doesn’t mean that clubs can do what they want — there will still be financial regulations, although there are precious few right now, however the Premier League may wish to spin it. What it does mean is that these cannot be tailored to negate the growth of Newcastle United, City or any specific club.

On page seven, the panel deal with what is termed “the consultation with clubs which led to the adoption of the APT rules in December 2021” and hears from Jamie Herbert, the Premier League’s director of governance. “Mr Herbert gave evidence that the PL had been considering the need for amendments to the PSR over a period of years. This evidence was challenged by MCFC [Manchester City]. However, it is agreed that there was no evidence of any formal initiative before the Autumn of 2021 to amend the PSRs in the manner in which they were amended in December 2021.”

In other words, they cooked it up based on what most clubs wanted. There were no commissioned studies, no in-depth research of a type that would suggest change was always on the cards. Herbert talked of discussions about rule changes dating back to 2018. Maybe there were. But clubs talk all the time.

The fact is, these talks suddenly escalated and only became formalised when Newcastle were bought by the Public Investment Fund (PIF) of Saudi Arabia and it was feared they could receive huge investment, becoming more competitive. City argued from their own perspective but the desire to limit competition, the anxiety caused by Newcastle’s takeover, was very much at the heart of this.

“The tyranny of the majority,” City argued, and everybody sneered. It’s called democracy, they chorused. Well, yes and no. First past the post is democracy too, yet the tyranny of the majority is why your vote will never count if you are a Labour voter in a safe Conservative seat, or vice versa.

That’s what John Stuart Mill wrote about in On Liberty. The pursuit of majority interest at the expense of a minority faction. So when the PIF bought Newcastle in October 2021 and almost instantly the Premier League began adjusting its rulebook — an email on the subject to the league from a club official specifically mentioned “the Gulf region” and was dated October 12, five days after the takeover — that’s the tyranny of the majority in action. AKA: a carve-up.

And we later read that the panel believed this official when, as a witness, he or she insisted Gulf-owned clubs were not the target. They believed the assertion that this intervention could just as easily have been discussing an “American consortium who had links to lots of American companies”. Except there are already quite a few American consortiums with links to lots of American companies in the Premier League, and the email didn’t mention them. It referenced the Gulf. “The takeover of Newcastle United heightened . . . concerns again and encouraged the clubs to seek action,” the witness admitted. Even so, the same email would have been sent had the worry related to Americans. It’s just that it wasn’t. It was sent five days after a Saudi takeover.

It’s the ruination of football, the destruction of the English game, that will be the argument. No, it’s not. City’s dominance is still scheduled to end pretty much the year Pep Guardiola walks out the door. Once the rules are redrafted, as they surely will be, City won’t be able to just claim what they like in sponsorship revenue. No club will. There will still be fair market value standards that have to be met, unless the system is entirely abandoned, which seems unlikely.

Yet the big change comes because the arbitration panel found that while APT regulations would be legal if applied in a non-discriminatory manner, Premier League rules excluded from the fair market value process some forms of financing by parties connected to a club. It means that in the future, the Premier League would have to regulate all forms of financing provided by shareholders and related parties, including sponsorship deals and loans, but also softer arrangements such as guarantees or equity investments. The calculation would be on the same terms available from a third party unconnected to the club and could even assess whether a club with a poor credit rating — one imagines Everton’s isn’t so hot right now — would be able to find a lender at all.

Equally, who doesn’t love Brighton & Hove Albion? Everyone’s second favourite club. Personal opinion: the best-run in the country. Yet, as of 2023, Brighton held shareholder loans of £302.8million. Charging interest at between eight and ten per cent would put £66-84million on their PSR calculation and will now have to be factored in going forward.

The clue is in the delay. This was a verdict delivered 14 days ago, one that City have been happy to publish since it arrived. The hold up has been at the Premier League’s end. Now they are trying to spin it out further. Clarifications, consultations, all the things a governing body does if it wants to fashion a tight rule book which, as Leicester City found much to their delight, isn’t the Premier League’s style at all. Why? There is another case ongoing involving Manchester City and 115 charges. So the APT decision likely impacts proceedings elsewhere. If the League can bog this down in legal process, they hope it won’t weaken their case against City yet further. The Premier League, its rulebook and executives are facing a firing squad but are now asking to inspect the guns to ensure they fit professional standards. What a shower they are.

It is not so much a can of worms as one of those tins of exploding snakes. If shareholder loans should have been part of the PSR equation all along, Everton and Nottingham Forest may wonder how they, alone, suffered points deductions. The Premier League can’t even simply revert to a time before the APT update, because now calculations around shareholder loans are unavoidable. So there is no simple reset button, no back-to-factory-mode setting. The parameters around PSR will have to be rewritten, if the system is not to be scrapped.

The drawing board does not have a mark on it. Everton, for instance, have £451million in shareholder loans, equating to as much as £104million on their PSR calculation. Arsenal have £258million, working out to a potential addition of £62.5million. At best it collapses the market around English football, at worst it puts some of the league in breach, or with vanishingly small sums to invest in player acquisition. There would be more asterisks attached to the league table than there are presently flying around boardrooms, as owners begin to study the 175-page adjudication and consider its implications.

Although not all of them. The idea City are out on a limb is inaccurate too. The club believe they have the support of at least six others in their actions — Everton, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Chelsea, Leicester City and Newcastle. Others may be recruited if the Premier League attempts to keep the rules as they are with the odd tweak and adjustment.

Who will vote for a flawed system that might now impinge, and quite brutally, on finances?
Adjust any PSR calculation by tens of millions and see how much is left for investment. And if the rules are unlawful, as stated, how far do we now rewind on PSR calculations involving shareholder loans? How many years must be recalculated? Will there be an amnesty? And what about going forward? At what rate is interest now calculated to alight on fair market value?
Would Forest receive the same rate on their £23.4million as Everton would on £451million — if Everton could get such a deal at all?

It’s a mess. Complex, perhaps incalculable. It always was. If Saudi Arabia are trying to get on the map with the Neom City project — estimated cost $1.5trillion — what is it worth to them to bring it to the world on the front of a football shirt or in a stadium naming-rights deal? And how can that investment be measured against Newcastle’s previous sponsors such as Fun88, Wonga or McEwan’s Lager? “This means more” used to be an advertising slogan around Anfield — but sponsorship does, to some companies. And fair market value was always a dubious, debatable concept, for that reason.

Just as profitability and sustainability has always been a counterintuitive aim. Ever since it started, football — indeed all business — has worked on the basis of how much money can be attracted to enhance the chance of glory. It is why there is a National Lottery to fund British Olympic objectives; why Hampshire County Cricket Club have been sold to the owner of the IPL franchise Delhi Capitals.

City’s owners are not the first to throw money at a project and, it is to be hoped, they won’t be the last. Yet PSR behaves as if investment is bad, as if that drive to squeeze every last drop to achieve is actually the problem. Every financial constraint further cements an established elite — and even that wasn’t enough. So new rules were drafted to ward off, and warn off, interlopers.

Yet it was an overplayed hand. It was unlawful, it was unfair, it was unreasonable. And it was three judges, not City, who studied it and saw through it too.

[niko_cee]

Guess we know who's payroll he's on.

The shareholder loan carve out is an interesting point though. Clubs who have been running at a non-APT profit going to rule the roost. :cool:

[niko_cee]

Skimming the judgment [under Section X no less :naughty:] that Martin Samuel analysis is borderline crimous.

[Jimmy Floyd]

'Once the rules are rewritten, which they surely will be' is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting in that piece. The rest is just straight bought-off Abu Dhabi propaganda, probably copy and pasted directly from their legal team. Samuel is as corrupt as they come.

Oh and definitely written well before the judgement came out, that much is for certain.

[niko_cee]

If you bother to read the thing, which I wouldn't recommend, but it is quite instructive if you skim and then focus on the more decisive sections, then what you will find is that City lost on virtually every substantive point. Not that there really was much substance to any of it, it was just throwing as much shit as possible ostensibly. Only on the issue of shareholder loans, which is clearly more of a case of them salting the earth as it is as bad for them to remove that mechanism as it is for anyone else, even if they have't previously availed themselves of it [I wonder why?]. 'Procedural fairness' is just something that gets tied up with admin changes and lol on toast at them successfully complaining that there were unreasonable delays in some of the decision making process. :happycry:

[Boydy]

So what's happening? Are City getting turfed out of the league or what?

[niko_cee]

This is a separate thing.

City said all the Associated Party Transaction rules were illegal as they breached competition law among other things. Those are the rules which put them in the most jeopardy in their other PSR case. The tribunal, in a lengthy judgment, largely dismissed all of the claims. The things they found with City on were that there was no justification for not treating shareholder loans as APTs, and explicitly excluding them sort of runs counter to the rationale of PSR, so those things will now have to be accounted for in PSR calculations and that there were elements of the application of the methodologies used to value the ATPs which didn't allow for enough consultation/notice/evidence etc, particularly with regard to the amendments the league sought to make in the wake of the Newcastle takeover.

The 'remedies' were basically suggested amendments to the rules and they reserved judgment as to costs, which was a shame, as that would have shown you [1] who really won and [2] quite how eye wateringly expensive it is to have Lord Pannick on your side in litigation/arbitration.

[niko_cee]

City going nuclear. :cool:

Can only assume they are properly shitting the outcome of the other one, although it should be noted that none of these rules pertain to that period of time under investigation.


the league's position that City were unsuccessful in the majority of its challenge is described by Cliff as "a peculiar way of looking at the decision".

I dunno Simon, seems sort of the logical way to look at it really.

League wins:

189. In conclusion, we find that there was a sufficient evidential basis for the PL and the clubs to conclude that the ex post PSR rules were ineffective in controlling APTs, and that it was necessary to move to ex ante regime. This was the objective of the APT Rules (and later the Amended APT Rules).

204. Thus we reject the argument that Rule E.64 is a restriction of competition by object on the basis of the alleged timing distortions.

218. We are therefore unable to accept that the APT Rules are inherently incapable of capturing the specific features of a particular sponsorship agreement and, for that reason, are by their nature distortive of competition.

220. We would add that, despite accepting the principle of PSR, MCFC put forward no alternative to the assessment methodology set out in section D of Appendix 18.

221. One of the differences that MCFC relies on between the two Rules is the move from an ex post to an ex ante regime. However, in both regimes there is an ability to restate the price and hence a risk of false positives. MCFC has accepted that the ex post regime is not a restriction of competition. In the light of that, it is difficult to see why an ex ante regime should, unlike an ex post regime, be a restriction of competition on grounds of the ability to restate the price of the transaction. But we should stress that we have reached our view that the ex ante regime does not constitute an object restriction independently of the view that MCFC takes of the ex post regime under the PSR.

226. For these reasons we reject the argument that the FMV determination process is an object restriction that involves either price distortions or price fixing.

238. We reject these arguments that the FMV assessment criteria breach the requirements laid down in ESL for the reasons given at [214-2] above. 239. We have also rejected the argument that the time limits in Rule E.74 breach the requirements laid down in ESL, see [204] above. 240. Accordingly, we reject this ground of challenge to the APT Rules.

270. Accordingly, we reject the argument that the non-application of the APT Rules to the PL is an object restriction of competition.

272. No challenge was made by MCFC to this justification which we need to consider as part of the relevant context and objectives for the purpose of an object analysis applying ESL. Accordingly we are unable to conclude that, applying the test in ESL, this provision reveals a sufficient degree of harm to competition such as to categorise it as a restriction of competition by object. 77 FOR DISCLOSURE TO MEMBER CLUBS AND THE PUBLIC 273. MCFC also complained that the scope of the RPT regime has been extended by a new definition of Associated Parties in the APT Rules. However MCFC did not develop this complaint nor did it explain how such an extension was a restriction of competition by object. Suffice it to say that we cannot see, applying the test in ESL, how this extended definition reveals a sufficient degree of harm to competition such as to categorise it as a restriction of competition by object.

343. Accordingly, we do not find any distortion of competition, let alone any appreciable distortion, arising from an alleged chilling effect of the APT Rules.

351. As regards any alleged adverse effect on innovation, again we reach the same conclusion. The innovation argument is also premised on the assumption that the price in an APT is at FMV. 352. Finally we do not accept that there is an inconsistency, as MCFC suggested at the end of this section of its skeleton, between the PL’s objective in introducing the APT Rules (to have the ability to restate, on an ex ante basis, APTs that are evidently above FMV so as to ensure the effectiveness of the PSR) and the PL’s argument that those Rules give rise to no appreciable effect on competition. This alleged inconsistency again proceeds on the unproven premise that the price in an APT is an undistorted price and that, as a consequence, any restatement of that price is ipso facto a distortion of competition. We have already explained at [316] to [320] above 96 FOR DISCLOSURE TO MEMBER CLUBS AND THE PUBLIC that we cannot accept that argument. 353. Thus we conclude that MCFC has not demonstrated that the APT Rules have had an appreciable actual or potential effect on (undistorted) competition in any of three relevant markets.

355. This point is essentially the same as that regarding the alleged distortion of competition between clubs with and without a larger network of Associated Parties. Again we have seen no evidence of actual or potential anti-competitive effect, let alone an appreciable effect, on multi-club entities. Further any transfer of a player within a multi-club entity is not frozen pending an FMV assessment. For these reasons we reject this argument.

362. On this basis, and given that we have seen no evidence of actual loss of APTs to clubs under the operation of the APT Rules, we conclude that the timing changes set out in Rules E.65 and E.66 are not likely to delay APTs sufficiently so as to have the potential and appreciable effect of restricting competition.

364. Since we have not found any provisions of the APT Rules and the Amended Rules to have an appreciable effect on competition this issue does not arise.

389. With regard to the APT Rules which we have held do not infringe Chapter I, we do not understand MCFC to contend that, if we so hold, these rules nonetheless infringe Chapter II. Accordingly, we conclude that there is no Chapter II infringement in respect of those APT Rules.

453. Our conclusion therefore is that the Board did not misdirect itself in the manner suggested in issues 8 and 9.

City wins:


262. In our view, having regard to the economic and legal context and the objective of the APT Rules, to permit owner funding via shareholder loans that are not at FMV, while subjecting other forms of funding to the FMV test, is a clear distortion of competition between clubs. The distortion of competition occurs regardless of whether the distortion arises from a non-FMV transaction with an owner or a related party. Thus, we conclude that the shareholder exclusion amounts to a sufficient degree of harm for it to be categorised as a restriction of competition by object.
264. As there is no change to the shareholder exclusion in the Amended APT Rules, we reach the same conclusion in respect of those rules, namely that the shareholder exclusion remains an object restriction.

288. Turning to the context and objective, we accept that the Amended APT Rules are intended to refine the workings of the PSR in the light of the experience in the operation of the APT Rules. However, having regard to the evidence of and , we consider that the Amended APT Rules remove an important part of the previous buffer which was intended to reduce the risk of false positives. The removal of this buffer is liable to increase the risk of a distortion of competition and to do so materially. In our view, it is important that the method chosen for determining the FMV of an APT is sufficiently robust to, if not eliminate, at least reduce the risk of false positives. We are not persuaded by the evidence of Mr. Herbert that these changes are either necessary or proportionate to the ensuring of the effectiveness of the PSR. His evidence does not grapple with the possible bespoke nature of sponsorship agreements. 289. Accordingly, we conclude that these changes are a restriction a competition by object.

370. However, we have not accepted the justification advanced for introducing the shareholder loan exclusion in the APT Rules nor the pricing changes in the Amended APT Rules. Looking at the exemption criteria, we have not found any evidence to show that either the shareholder loan exclusion in the APT Rules or the pricing changes in the Amended APT Rules were indispensable to the attainment of the objectives of the PSR. Accordingly, the PL’s exemption case must fail.

388. With regard to the shareholder loan exclusion and the pricing changes to the FMV determination in the Amended APT Rules which we find to infringe Chapter I, we see no basis for saying that such reasoning should not also lead to a finding that those provisions infringe Chapter II. Nor did the PL argue to the contrary. Accordingly, we find those provisions also infringe the Chapter II prohibition.



Procedural fairness:

ISSUE 7(A): ARE THE RULES PROCEDURALLY UNFAIR BECAUSE A CLUB IS NOT PROVIDED WITH THE DATABANK MATERIAL CONSIDERED BY THE BOARD PRIOR TO THE BOARD’S ASSESSMENT OF IT?

412. Therefore, the Tribunal considers that the Rules are procedurally unfair for the reasons given above.

ISSUE 7(B): ARE THE RULES PROCEDURALLY UNFAIR BECAUSE A CLUB HAS NO ACCESS TO THE DATABANK AND CANNOT ASSESS WHETHER THERE IS ANY ADDITIONAL MATERIAL NOT IDENTIFIED BY THE REGULATORY TEAM WHICH WOULD ASSIST IN RELATION TO THE BOARD’S ASSESSMENT OF FMV?

422. We therefore reject the submission that the Rules were unfair in the manner suggested in Issue 7(b).

ISSUE 7(C): ARE THE RULES PROCEDURALLY UNFAIR BECAUSE PRIOR TO THE BOARD’S PROVISONAL OR FINAL ASSESSMENT OF FMV, A CLUB 117 FOR DISCLOSURE TO MEMBER CLUBS AND THE PUBLIC IS NOT PROVIDED WITH A COPY OF THE REPORT SENT BY THE REGULATORY TEAM TO THE BOARD?

428. We are therefore not persuaded that the Rules are unfair in the manner suggested in 118 Issue 7(c).

ISSUE 7(D): ARE THE RULES PROCEDURALLY UNFAIR BECAUSE THE CLUB HAS NO ACCESS TO THE INEPENDNENT ASSESSOR’S OWN REPOSITORY OF COMPARABLE TRANSACTION?

439. The Tribunal is therefore not persuaded that the Rules were unfair in the manner suggested in Issue 7(d).

482. It follows that the Tribunal must conclude that the PL, although under pressure to provide the Board’s Final Determination by the date ordered by the Tribunal, acted in a procedurally unfair manner by not providing MCFC with an opportunity to respond to the Benchmarking Analysis.

550. Having reviewed the Board’s treatment of the matters identified in Issue 11 the Tribunal has concluded that the Board did not act unreasonably (as defined in Rule X.5.2) in its FMV Assessment.

562. The Tribunal also ordered that the Final Determination be issued by 5 April 2024. However, following the extensive and new material provided on 23 March 2024, and the considerable number of requests for further information generated by that material, the PL sought extensions of time until 22 and then 25 April 2024. The Board issued its Final Determination on 25 April 2024 as directed by the Tribunal. 563. Although the Final Determination was issued about 5 months after the request for an FMV Assessment of the EAG Transaction, there had been no unreasonable delay by the PL or any delay in breach of Rule E.64.

566. These are the same questions which were asked in Issues 8 and 9 in respect of the EAG Transaction. No counsel made any separate oral submissions with regard to the FAB Transaction. The Tribunal’s understanding is that the same arguments are advanced in respect of Issues 13 and 14 as were advanced in respect of Issues 8 and 9. As with Issues 8 and 9, the Tribunal answers Issues 13 and 14 in the negative and for the same reasons.


OVERALL CONCLUSIONS

The challenge to the APT Rules and the Amended APT Rules

592. MCFC challenges the APT Rules and the Amended APT Rules as being restrictive of competition in several respects contrary to the Chapter I and II prohibitions of the 1998 Act. We hold that (i) the exclusion of shareholder loans from the APT Rules and Amended APT Rules and (ii) the pricing changes in Appendix 18 of the Amended APT Rules are unlawful as they infringe the Chapter I and II prohibitions but all other challenges fail.

593. MCFC also challenges the APT Rules and the Amended APT Rules as being procedurally unfair in several respects. We hold that MCFC’s inability to comment upon the comparable transaction data relied upon by the PL before the PL determines whether a transaction is at FMV is procedurally unfair but all other challenges fail. The challenge to the PL’s decision with regard to the EAG Transaction

594. MCFC challenges the PL’s decision that the EAG Transaction was evidently not at FMV alleging that the PL misdirected itself in its interpretation and application of 161 FOR DISCLOSURE TO MEMBER CLUBS AND THE PUBLIC the APT Rules. That challenge has failed.

595. MCFC also challenges that decision on the basis that, in several respects, it was reached in a procedurally unfair manner. That challenge has failed, save in two respects, namely, that the PL did not give MCFC an opportunity to respond to the Benchmarking Analysis prior to reaching its decision and MCFC was not provided with the underlying data in the Databank in relation to the excluded CAGR.

596. MCFC also challenges that decision on the basis that the PL’s decision was unreasonable in a number of respects. That challenge has failed.

597. Finally, MCFC alleges that there had been unreasonable delay and/or delay contrary to Rule E.64 by the PL in reaching its decision. That allegation has failed. The challenge to the PL’s decision with regard to the FAB Transaction

598. MCFC challenges the PL’s decision that the FAB Transaction was evidently not at FMV, alleging that the PL misdirected itself in its interpretation and application of the APT Rules. That challenge has failed.

599. MCFC also challenges that decision on the basis that it was reached in a procedurally unfair manner in that the PL did not provide MCFC, prior to its Final Determination, with the Databank transactions entered into by other clubs, which the Board referred to in its Final Determination. That challenge has been upheld.

600. MCFC also challenges that decision on the basis that the PL acted unreasonably in a number of respects. That challenge has failed.

601. Finally, MCFC alleges that there was an unreasonable delay of many months and/or delay contrary to Rule E.64 by the PL in reaching its decision. We have held that there was an unreasonable delay of about 3 months and thereby a breach of Rule E.64. The challenge to the time taken by the PL to reach a decision with regard to the EP Transaction 162 FOR DISCLOSURE TO MEMBER CLUBS AND THE PUBLIC

602. MCFC alleges that there was an unreasonable delay of many months and/or delay contrary to Rule E.64 by the PL in reaching its decision. We have held that there was an unreasonable delay of about 2 months and thereby a breach of Rule E.64.

I'm not sure any set of rules created by any governing body anywhere has ever completely withstood the application of competition/antitrust law when it has come a knocking, usually funded by enormously wealthy/powerful adversaries of said body, so to claim small, rectifiable defects should nullify the application of everything seems a bit of an odd interpretation. As the tribunal said:


we consider it to be inherent in the PSR that there should be an ability to restate the price of a transaction; otherwise the PSR would be largely ineffective. Indeed, when the PSR were introduced in the 2013-14 season Rule E.53 gave the Board the power to restate a RPT

City's interpretation would, very obviously, render the entire thing pointless/unworkable, but I guess that's the whole point, and will probably win out in the end, as that's how these things work.

[Gray Fox]

It's a very strange position for the Premier League to now be in. It seems like while they probably will get something to stick in the end, it wont satisfy anyone.

[niko_cee]

Richard Masters very much Ed Woodward to Scudamore's David Gill.

[Shindig]

Newcastle came out to City's defence but that could just be the Saudis being sour that their takeover tightened those rules up.

[niko_cee]

More likely they would like to see the back of them, which is fair enough.

The irony of ironies being that the rules themselves, which City signed up to and have claimed to have followed for years, so one wonders really what is their major issue with them, have helped entrench them in their dominant position, as whilst every other commercially viable rival was fucking about and/or following the rules, which City weren't, any new rogue actors looking to barge their way in were being actively and aggressively deterred by those self-same rules.

The loan stuff is an equal red herring. Aren't the debts of Arsenal and Brighton, aside from the vagueries of how everything is owned in holding companies, mostly down to the fact that their respective owners have poured a fuckton of cash into building stadiums? City didn't do that, did they? It is also a red herring in that those loans are considerably more limited in their scope in terms of being abused to comply with PSR etc than having massively inflated commercial deals, as there is no real limit on them other than what you can plausibly claim is fair value, whereas losses can only be comped by owners through loans to a limited extent. Not accounting for interest also another massive red herring for most of the past 15 years as there has been money available to the very well off for essentially nothing for 90% of that period.

[niko_cee]

Quite a good synopsis (https://www.thelawyer.com/in-depth-who-actually-won-the-manchester-city-case/)


City actually voted in favour of excluding shareholder loans in 2021

:happycry:

[niko_cee]

Wait, in what is clearly becoming a bit of an obsession I've found my favourite bit of the arbitration thing buried in the ostensibly innocuous fact section:


A number of representatives of clubs gave evidence that it became apparent that the PSR regime was deficient in policing FMV transactions. The regime relied on clubs essentially making a self-declaration in their annual accounts that a transaction was with a related party. If a club failed to make a self-declaration, the PL had no practical way to determine whether a transaction was an RPT. MCFC did not make any declarations of RPTs under the PSR.

:lol:

... but Etihad Airways is owned by other people stooge ...

[Jimmy Floyd]

So unless I'm reading it wrong, which in this case is extremely possible if not probable, are they basically trying (not without a whiff of desperation, I have to say) to blow up PSR prior to the other case being heard in order to try and throw a lot of the 115 charges into doubt or delay their being heard?

[Gray Fox]

Yeah, they've tried to destroy the argument before it can be made.

What Niko is posting suggests but for a few small amendments, they've failed, but are trying to play it off as a massive victory. What I wonder now is was this their best shot? If it was, after presumable tagging in the worlds most expensive lawfirm, maybe it is curtains.

[niko_cee]

I think it is a bit of that but it's mostly flexing.

Their argument [veiled threat] is now that they'll money whoever to death, and take as many other fuckers down as possible failing that, which could be fairly persuasive in certain quarters. They've certainly landed the media narrative as everyone is lining up on their side it would seem, but I guess they are quite easily bought these days.

The disciplinary commission case relates to the previous, completely ineffective, rules [hence why they tried to change them!] and would appear to mostly be centred around them lying on an industrial scale, so it may be more of a case of whether there is sufficient evidence of the stuff Der Spiegel reported.

[Shindig]

I have a punishment related question. Can relegation be on the cards when the Premier League and EFL are separate entities? It's the Premier League's rules they've fallen foul of, after all.

[niko_cee]

Presumably they could be relegated by way of points deduction, but I prefer the more fanciful idea of banishment, by way of a fixed period ban from being in the Premier League. Said period to be the same amount of time as the alleged infringements occurred over ideally. Ain't gonna happen.

There is too much collateral damage in cancelling the last 10 years, but if they could at least brand a massive fucking asterisk onto Pep's shiny head that would be something.

[Gray Fox]

I have a punishment related question. Can relegation be on the cards when the Premier League and EFL are separate entities? It's the Premier League's rules they've fallen foul of, after all.

As I understand it, the Premier League can remove them from next season. They would then have to apply to the EFL. If they said yes it would be at their discretion as to what tier they entered at. The obvious issue there is promotion and relegation are already sorted, so they'd have to actively choose someone else to boot out of the league, or have that league run with 25 teams for a season. You'd likely see the EFL tell them they'll have to start from the bottom. Which is why the common hope/belief is relegation is forced, because it will see them at least in League 2.

Something similar happened in Scotland not too long ago. Rangers parent company was forced into liquidation. The owners transferred all assets to a new parent company and just changed the end of the name from PLC to LTD. The SPL didn't want to allow them in, so refused their registration. They turned to the SFL who said yes, but you start from League 2.

[Gray Fox]

There is too much collateral damage in cancelling the last 10 years

I think this is the problem the EPL face. Most are going to want to see either a forced relegation or titles stripped, if not both and I just don't see the latter happening. But if they don't do either/both, then the risk of cheating is essentially paying off in a very public way.

Also taking into account the very American ownership of the 3 biggest clubs in the country, who I assume are waiting to pounce on any guilt with further lawsuits. As is the freedom way. For our lot and I may be wrong, but I think Arsenal too, FFP or PSR of whatever it comes under, is a very integral part of them being in the sport altogether. FSG said as much when they bought us.

Hence why I think the EPL are a bit stuck here, unless they fully evaporate City.

[niko_cee]

Klopp's joined Red Bull in some capacity or other? :face:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Maybe he can teach Perez to press higher up the grid.

Unless you mean the football team(s), which would somehow make less sense.

[Manc]

Global head of soccer. A position formerly held by Ralf Dietrich Rangnick.

[-james-]

Global head of soccer. A position formerly held by Ralf Dietrich Rangnick.


In 2019, Rangnick was promoted to head of sport and development for Red Bull, thus overseeing global football initiatives, including the New York Red Bulls and their takeover of Red Bull Bragantino.[114][115] Under Rangnick's tenure, the New York Red Bulls won the Supporters Shield in 2013, 2015 and 2018, while Red Bull Bragantino gained promotion to Série A in 2020. He resigned from Red Bull in 2020,[116] with a reported move to Milan failing during negotiations.[117] While at Red Bull, their clubs rose in market value from €120 million to €1.2 billion during his tenure, with its largest club, RB Leipzig, peaking in value to €270 million in 2019.[4] Red Bull also generated sizable profits with player transfers

#ShareholderValue

Klopp seems like a bizarre appointment for this sort of thing

[Yevrah]

And people were saying he wouldn't be interested in the England job...

[Jimmy Floyd]

It sounds like an absolutely awful non-job, especially for someone who seems to live on their emotions in the way he does.

Maybe he's waiting for the mannschaft to have a vacancy.

[niko_cee]

I hope it's a lot of money (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c89l5xx8n1xo).

[randomlegend]

It sounds like an absolutely awful non-job, especially for someone who seems to live on their emotions in the way he does.

Maybe he's waiting for the mannschaft to have a vacancy.

He's got a release clause if Germany come knocking.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I hope it's a lot of money (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c89l5xx8n1xo).

What are German non-dom rules? Can probably do it from Dubai if he doesn't have to go to games.

[Ben]

BVB fans are fuming.

[Gray Fox]

He said he was running out of energy, so he got himself a Red Bull.

[niko_cee]

What are German non-dom rules? Can probably do it from Dubai if he doesn't have to go to games.

Isn't Lichtenstein essentially in the Black Forest?

Or just go full Suisse.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm on a train and some plummy-voiced people are talking with complete sincerity about how interesting it will be to see how Bukayo Saka plays tonight, given his (according to them) recent upturn in form. He can't turn quickly, apparently, and you can't teach a first touch.

Is this the football culture I'm leaving behind as I age? I swear it used to be more fun than this.

[-james-]

They sound like mongs.

[niko_cee]

I guess playing too many attacking midfielders is at least better than playing too many defensive players.

[niko_cee]

I know it's wild thinking, but maybe we could just play Bellingham in midfield, Palmer as 'the 10' and a fucking centre forward up front.

[Ben]

That would be too obvious I suspect.

[Yevrah]

Didn't even realise this was happening. What tactical abomination has the binman's binman gone with?

Whatever it is, I see from the score we're looking solid for another tournament football point.

[Gray Fox]

Waistcoat would never.

[Yevrah]

I appear to have cursed it. The BBC reckon we're playing Palmer in a central midfield two and Bellingham and Foden as strikers. What in the actual fuck?

[niko_cee]

Didn't even realise this was happening. What tactical abomination has the binman's binman gone with?

Whatever it is, I see from the score we're looking solid for another tournament football point.

4-1-5? 4-6-0? Potentially 2-8-0. Total Carseball.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Baldy going full Frank Sobotka I see.

[Yevrah]

The succession of absolute dickheads vastly over complicating this job is going to be the end of me.

[Shindig]

Dear Frank Lampard,

Save us from this.

[-james-]

https://i.imgur.com/n9m8hWC.png

[Jimmy Floyd]

They're trying too hard to build the team around Jude I think. Just put a football team out with roughly our best players and let him do his thing within it. That means that yes, you have to play Ollie Watkins up top, fucking deal with it.

[ScousePig]

Just popped in to see if Yev had written Carsley off yet.




See ya.

[Yevrah]

Sigh.

If we’re not going proper foreigner and we’re clearly not then he probably is stil the best choice from a bang average bunch, but seriously, what the fuck is this shit and what did he expect would happen with that line up?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I heard a pretty convincing case somewhere that they think Pep Guardiola is going to become available next summer and this is them delaying so as to get him.

[Ben]

Baldy clapping us going 0-2 down. Southgate lives on.

[niko_cee]

Pickford has been tragic tonight.

Saved by the VAR again.

[Yevrah]

I heard a pretty convincing case somewhere that they think Pep Guardiola is going to become available next summer and this is them delaying so as to get him.

It’s ballsy and if they haven’t tapped him up then I could see us ending up with Frank Lampard.

[ScousePig]

I heard a pretty convincing case somewhere that they think Pep Guardiola is going to become available next summer and this is them delaying so as to get him.

I heard similar with regards to Southgate and Man United.

Any day now...

[Jimmy Floyd]

Frank would send us tumbling out of the World Cup against a nation whose leader wears a colourful uniform and dark glasses, but it would be funny along the way, I'll take it.

[Yevrah]

Solid tournament football point is back on!

[Ben]

This defensive display is embarrassing.

[niko_cee]

This defensive display is embarrassing.

Mostly down to the fact we have had literally no midfield for the entire match. You can't give 4 or 5 players licence to flounce about*. More if you count the fullbacks.

Is it not a back pass now if you are trying to score an OG?

* you can in age group football though, as it is so much less structured.

[Giggles]

A win, an actual fucking win :|

[Yevrah]

Holy fuck. That’s up there with some of the worst defending I’ve ever seen.

[niko_cee]

:lol:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Greece deserve that. By far the better side.

[-james-]

Today I feel Greek

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

:lol:

[Spikey M]

Lol

[niko_cee]

The crockery of north west London is on high alert.

[Yevrah]

And I agree with Scouse in principle that three games is very early to write someone off, but what the fuck has he been doing all week with them to create two shots on goal and then end with that absolute disgrace?

I want an England player to break ranks and just come out and say that they’re utterly sick of playing like cunts.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Fair play to Bernie Ecclestone, that tax bill obviously didn't hit him too hard.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm happy to write off Lee Carsley purely on the basis that he's Lee Carsley, a bald former shit midfielder who played for Derby. Sorry laddo but that's just the way it works.

[ScousePig]

And I agree with Scouse in principle that three games is very early to write someone off, but what the fuck has he been doing all week with them to create two shots on goal and then end with that absolute disgrace?

I want an England player to break ranks and just come out and say that they’re utterly sick of playing like cunts.

My main point is that it's too easy to write managers off as the majority end up 'failing' anyway.

[Yevrah]

There’s ‘failing’ and then there’s that.

[ScousePig]

I didn't watch as I have no interest but it sounds comical.

[Yevrah]

To equate it to an average workplace (and from the 40 mins I watched) it was akin to rocking up two hours late, taking a shit on your desk and then falling asleep in it.

[niko_cee]

"It's unrealistic to expect too much."

- Lee Carsley, 2024

[Shindig]

And then thinking in the last five minutes of your shift you can pull it back. And nobody would notice.

[Jimmy Floyd]

"It's unrealistic to expect too much."

- Lee Carsley, 2024

How can they get away with saying this stuff? You're England manager at the time of our best ever playing strength, probably, in Nations League B. Fucking win right now or fuck off.

[niko_cee]

"We tried it for 20 minutes yesterday"

Really not sure what to make of that one.

[Raoul Duke]

Getting turned over by Andy Warhol's Greece is top, top banter. Gareth would have pocketed them without smashing a plate.

I ouldl revolutionise English football by playing a left-back at left-back. Would be nice.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Maybe it was a false flag operation by the deep s(ou)t(hg)ate to prove to the Waffelz breed of fan that just picking all the exciting flair players doesn't work.

[Dark Soldier]

Southgate was such a don.

[Spikey M]

It's coming home

[Adramelch]

Say what you want about Southgate but he would have won that game 0-0.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Southgate shat the bed in the Nations League, including a memorable 4-0 loss to Hungary, which is why we're in League B in the first place. It's only in Tournament Football that he really came alive.

[Giggles]

:cool:


1844478056616034370

[Giggles]

Shindig Gateshead lad in goal for us tonight. Not sure why he's starting over Keely, does he play for you lot or a youth?

[Giggles]

Probably should have said a name in fairness. Tiernan Brooks.

[Shindig]

He's a regular for us. 15 goals conceded in 10 games but 7 of those came against Dag & Red.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Was reading around this Yung Filly brouhaha and found this amazing sequence of paragraphs:


Meanwhile, the Football Association (FA) has cancelled an online cookery series with Barrientos.

On Wednesday, it had announced an online cookery series Barrientos was reported to star in alongside England footballers, including Bukayo Saka and Ezri Konsa.

The series was in collaboration with M&S Food, which the BBC understands does not have a direct relationship with Yung Filly, and took part in one piece of filming as one of the FA's partners.

Nothing will ever top this, it's the most FA thing that could possibly happen.

[Baz]

I don’t even know who or what that is about.

[Jimmy Floyd]

A rap-adjacent Youtuber got arrested for rape in Australia, hours after the FA announced above content bonanza.

Honestly Baz, you need to keep up with the hip-hop-happenings, you can't rely on me all the time.

[Yevrah]

Much like their binman playing eight forwards in one starting line up, do our FA really need to be doing that?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yes. They need to engage with the black youth (who famously can't stand football), and what better way to do that than to get a rapist and Ezri Konsa to talk street to each other on camera under the auspices of Marks & Spencer.

[niko_cee]

It's alright, Carseball's grand vision for the future of football has gone in the bin after 20 minutes on the training pitch and a bad game against Greece. Just not the way we play, I guess.

Palmer adding himself into the Bellingham/Foden clusterfuck is certainly going to be an insurmountable challenge for whoever they appoint.

[Ben]

You’d imagine Kane comes back in for Gordon when fit but then we’ve still got to axe one of Palmer, Bellingham, Foden or Saka to prevent us being an embarrassment in midfield.

Who should it be? And who will it be?

[Jimmy Floyd]

They need Adam Wharton in for Foden. Fuck it, Lewis Cook, whoever it takes for the side to be balanced.

[Ben]

Wharton is a good shout. I couldn’t get Conor Gallagher out of my head so anything is an improvement over him.

Although he seems to be Simeone’s best bud already.

[Shindig]

It should be an easy choice to axe Foden in favour of someone like Wharton. Bellingham and Palmer have at least done something in an England shirt.

[niko_cee]

Maybe a bit harsh on Foden, even if Palmer was England Mens Player of the Year with 2 starts [no competitive ones, that game the other night was his first start in an allegedly competitive match] and 1 goal. Strong year.

If Foden gets chucked, fair enough, does Palmer then just go out and be the problem on that left flank, assuming Bellingham stays as the maverick 10 or whatever it is? Doesn't feel like that will have a much better outcome in terms of the way the team plays. It'll just be the wasting of Paul Scholes all over again. Has Bellingham gone full Gerrard now in terms of the transition from industrious workhorse to must build the team around me maestro?

[Gray Fox]

So we now have our generations "How do we fit Gerrard, Scholes and Lampard in the same team?"

The only possible solution is play Bellingham LM.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If that generation of England players was around now, it would be Hargreaves behind Gerrard and Lampard which would work extremely well, David Beckham at right back (sorry Gaz Nev), and Joe Cole 'off the left'. Emile Heskey would be the lone frontman with Owen coming off the bench on 74 minutes.

All eras fall into the same problem which is if everyone plays the same system then the best footballers all get drawn to one role, and guess what it's happening again.

[niko_cee]

Be that as it may, and it is in interesting point, it was only really the onset of the Golden Generation that saw this problem manifest itself as a selection issue. Before then players just weren't picked. Le Tissier never got a game, for example, as was the case with many of the good English forwards in the 90s.

Has the onset of Championship Manager, where picking 5 attacking midfielders/forwards has almost always been a viable strategy, warped the minds of fans, the media and coaches alike?

[Baz]

Carsley is Guimenez (https://strikerless.com) in disguise.

[Waffdon]

Maybe a bit harsh on Foden, even if Palmer was England Mens Player of the Year with 2 starts [no competitive ones, that game the other night was his first start in an allegedly competitive match] and 1 goal. Strong year.

If Foden gets chucked, fair enough, does Palmer then just go out and be the problem on that left flank, assuming Bellingham stays as the maverick 10 or whatever it is? Doesn't feel like that will have a much better outcome in terms of the way the team plays. It'll just be the wasting of Paul Scholes all over again. Has Bellingham gone full Gerrard now in terms of the transition from industrious workhorse to must build the team around me maestro?

Bellingham basically played as a striker all year for Real Madrid. I don’t think we’ll see him deeper again

[Jimmy Floyd]

Be that as it may, and it is in interesting point, it was only really the onset of the Golden Generation that saw this problem manifest itself as a selection issue. Before then players just weren't picked. Le Tissier never got a game, for example, as was the case with many of the good English forwards in the 90s.

Has the onset of Championship Manager, where picking 5 attacking midfielders/forwards has almost always been a viable strategy, warped the minds of fans, the media and coaches alike?

Probably more the onset of money/celebrity culture and the associated pressures. Imagine the modern day ramifications of Alf Ramsey leaving out Jimmy Greaves in '66, it would have destroyed the camp from the inside. Although in those days I think it was less a camp and more them just turning up for games, which probably also helped.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm very pro international break, but fucking hell, get the England game on the Saturday PLEASE. In a fruitless search for live sport I've been driven to watching the America's Cup, which should actually be renamed the New Zealand's Cup since they win it literally every time and are once again giving the challenger boat, in this case INEOS, a pasting. All the commentators are kiwis too, it feels like their version of one of those Soviet military parades.

Why are there games on a Thursday night? It's ludicrous.

[Giggles]

There's pool on.

[ScousePig]

Grand Final of the Super League on soon.

[niko_cee]

I'm very pro international break, but fucking hell, get the England game on the Saturday PLEASE. In a fruitless search for live sport I've been driven to watching the America's Cup, which should actually be renamed the New Zealand's Cup since they win it literally every time and are once again giving the challenger boat, in this case INEOS, a pasting. All the commentators are kiwis too, it feels like their version of one of those Soviet military parades.

Why are there games on a Thursday night? It's ludicrous.

For 'the oldest trophy in sport' or whatever it is they claim it is, The Americas Cup really is the shitest 'contest' going. Not that sailing is ever anything but a complete snooze-fest. What the fuck are these bike driven flying boats all about?

[Baz]

1845203366802227527

:lol:

[Lofty]

The celebration :D

[John Arne]

Do they not know what 'overhead' means?

[Waffdon]

London is blue

[Jimmy Floyd]

Liverpool's red,
London is blue,
Finland are shite,
Sorry Penald-oo.

[Giggles]

Parrott for Azaz, Mikey Johnston should really be starting too. Certain loss anyway, so fuck it.

[Dark Soldier]

Preferred Jimmy's rhyme but solid effort Giggles.

[niko_cee]

Carsebald sounds like he's chucked the towel in in terms of getting the full time job.

[Giggles]

Preferred Jimmy's rhyme but solid effort Giggles.

London is blue? I thought they were either still talking about the woman's overhead kick or the Chicago Bears.

Waffelz is enough of a joke that he's hardly celebrating England wins now.

[Gray Fox]

Carsebald sounds like he's chucked the towel in in terms of getting the full time job.

I'm sure he's actively said he doesn't want it.

[Giggles]

I always thought Baldock was the English lad who changed his name when he changed country, but see the same name now. Who was that again?

[niko_cee]

Brereton-Diaz?

[Giggles]

That's the one.

[Waffdon]

London is blue? I thought they were either still talking about the woman's overhead kick or the Chicago Bears.

Waffelz is enough of a joke that he's hardly celebrating England wins now.

Hi Giggles

[Giggles]

Greece should be about 3 up already, the difference in touch and control between the two teams is as wide as I've ever seen.

[Jimmy Floyd]

In fairness to Carsley, England under 21 manager is an absolutely dream job. Get to work with amazing players all the time without being bothered about their salary / agents being twats, or having to develop too much of a relationship with them because they'll be too old soon anyway. Work in a nice office at a nice facility in the midlands, chilling for most of the year. No one gives a solitary fuck about results, but you get a reasonable crack at silverware every couple of years. Would love that job.

Southgate was probably too patriotic to turn down the big job and then made a decent go at it. Carsley doesn't come across as patriotic at all, not least I suppose because he played for another country. So it's no surprise if he can't be arsed with all the balls that comes with the job. Welcome Pep.

[phonics]

Most International management seems boring dogshit. Unless you're Harvre Renard turning up to get a tan and look sexy in a white shirt for 18 months I'm not sure what the appeal is.

[Pepe]

Money for not much work.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c981203e61qo

This could be tasty.

[niko_cee]

Feels like the game is on the precipice of eating itself with all of the various legal actions blighting everything.

[Ben]

Might not be a bad thing in the long run.

[Spikey M]

Indeed.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Players going on strike and clubs having to field local pub teams :drool:

We might actually win a few games.

[Ben]

Because you're already fielding a pub team.

:henn0rz:

[Giggles]

This better not mean less internationals.

[Jimmy Floyd]

FIFA does have a point when it accuses the Big Clubs of filling every available spare second with long-haul friendlies. They'd have a lot more of a leg to stand on if they actually gave the players rest rather than doing that.

Really of course this is about the number of weeks of money that go to each side in the FIFA-Big Clubs war, rather than about player welfare. Huge blow for the Big Clubs if the FIFA thing takes off.

[niko_cee]

That's fine as long as FIFA are happy for the THE BIG CLUBS to treat the World Club Cup in the same manner as tour friendlies are treated, but I get the impression that they wouldn't like that. 11 subs at half time and all.

[Giggles]

That young Francis lad from Arsenal looked handy this evening, head and shoulders above really. I presume he's fairly young if he's on loan over here.

[Gray Fox]

INEOS have finally fired a United manager.

[Kikó]

And he's not got his winter fuel payments.

[-james-]

Tommy Tactics. :cool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm all for that. Hopefully downs the sausage-munchers in the next tournament and does the dam buster goggles at their bench.

[Luke Emia]

So you're telling me we won two world wars and got Brexit done and we are still going for a German manager. This used to be a real country.