Trannies

[Dquincy]

Wasn't sure where to put this, so have made a thread.

Thought this woman put across a sensible viewpoint about transgender people not being actual lasses. And also protecting genuine woman.

The radio host on the other hand is a dickhead.

1476131289870778374

[Yevrah]

James Max. :D

[igor_balis]

The idea that trans women pose a threat to women born as women is pretty fucking stupid, and doesn't hold up to basically any scrutiny.

If a man wanted to go into a woman's toilet to be a perv, he'd probably just skip to that bit.

[Panda Bear]

Trannies?

Give your head a shake, you regressive idiot.

[Giggles]

Born with mickey - man
Born with fanny - woman

Anything else is just a cry for attention.

[Panda Bear]

Also, fuck you for supporting this argument against treating transwomen with dignity.

[Dquincy]

Trannies?

Give your head a shake, you regressive idiot.
https://img.gifglobe.com/grabs/partridgecloud/S01E03/gif/oaqFgtx5zPv1.gif

[Panda Bear]

Born with mickey - man
Born with fanny - woman

Anything else is just a cry for attention.Fundamentally and unequivocally wrong, but go ahead living with your uneducated head firmly buried up your own ass.

[Pepe]

This is bound to be fun.

[Panda Bear]

My memorandum of understanding states that I can resort to insults and not have to justify my position or provide argumentation.

[Dquincy]

Panda, wasn't trying to offend. Merely looking to start a conversation on the matter.

[Giggles]

Fundamentally and unequivocally wrong, but go ahead living with your uneducated head firmly buried up your own ass.

It’s not wrong though. It’s just a crusade for bored students to egg on people looking a bit of attention. Sick cunts.

[Panda Bear]

This is the part where I mention my nephew is trans.

[Shindig]

The idea that trans women pose a threat to women born as women is pretty fucking stupid, and doesn't hold up to basically any scrutiny.

Sport.

[Giggles]

This is the part where I mention my nephew is trans.

Are we all meant to say sorry then or what? It’s hardly some ace card to draw because I wouldn’t see anyone change their beliefs just because the niece or nephew of someone they don’t (or do) know needs a ‘thing’.

[Panda Bear]

Now I try to educate you on why your views and wrong, and then I eventually hold my hands up in resignation when I remember that most people don't actually change their views based upon logical argumentation.

Done.

[Giggles]

You can’t educate anyone when you’re completely wrong and backing a sinister view. So probably best to just hold them up now and we can pretend all this was wrapped up nicely.

[Panda Bear]

Wanna talk about abortion?

[Giggles]

Not on a tranny thread anyway.

[Foe]

Are you comfortable telling us a little more panda?

How did they come upon the realisation they were not comfortable with who they were?

I’m pretty much in the biological sex at birth is the gender that follows you for critical administration purposes because otherwise it’s an absolute mess, but if you believe you’re better suited as the other sex and choose to go down that path fair play to you. Be happy with who you are.

I’m not at all a fan of non biological gender representation in sport - but that’s probably a seperate debate.

[Spikey M]

I won't pretend to understand it. Chiefly because I don't really understand what it is to feel a gender. I'm a man. Do I feel like a man? I don't know. I like football, but then so does my wife. Is she a man now? I like Eastenders. Am I a bit of a woman? What exactly is being felt when someone with a dick says that they feel like they should have a vagina? I've no idea.

For that reason I've just popped it on the "stuff I'll never understand" shelf next to Art and Jazz, and I just carry on with life. If I meet someone Transgender I call them by their preferred pronouns and name and just try my best not to be a dick. It requires basically no effort on my behalf, so why not?

It is wonderfully on brand that Panda has a Transgender Nephew to go with his Bipolar Pooch though. Front Row seats at the Coffee and Flatcap awards.

(My hipster stereotyping may well be about 10 years out of date.)

[Yevrah]

I think that's one of the reasons I don't get it either Spikey, I just don't hold many, if any, gender norms dear to my heart and beyond the biology, have no idea what it means to be a man or a woman.

[Shindig]

Ditto. Unless the conversation lands on my doorstep, I'll leave well alone.

[-james-]

Born with mickey - man
Born with fanny - woman

Anything else is just a cry for attention.

Who would put themselves through the discrimination that trans people are subject to just for attention?

[Ian]

If it was about 'protecting women' presumably the first step would be stopping men going out in public at all.

It's almost as if the 'but wat about the wimmins :cry:" is just a distraction tactic for bigots.

[Panda Bear]

Are you comfortable telling us a little more panda?

How did they come upon the realisation they were not comfortable with who they were?

I’m pretty much in the biological sex at birth is the gender that follows you for critical administration purposes because otherwise it’s an absolute mess, but if you believe you’re better suited as the other sex and choose to go down that path fair play to you. Be happy with who you are.

I’m not at all a fan of non biological gender representation in sport - but that’s probably a seperate debate.I'm not privy to a lot of it, and my nephew is on my wife's side of the family so I wasn't around his entire life.

My understanding is that even before puberty, my nephew wanted to have been born a boy. Once puberty hit, the feeling intensified into an unshakeable, permanent feeling of angst that they had the wrong body.

It's been seven years since he started transitioning, and he just keeps doing better year-over-year.

[Giggles]

Who would put themselves through the discrimination that trans people are subject to just for attention?

Because they’re not right in the head.

[Yevrah]

Who would put themselves through the discrimination that trans people are subject to just for attention?

Out of interest, what discrimination are they subjected to? I'm not aware of a minority getting a voice this big, this quickly, in all of human history.

[-james-]

Because they’re not right in the head.

Yes, gender dysphoria is often associated with mental illness, and transitioning is associated with a vast reduction in suicide rates and the like.

[Giggles]

Yes, gender dysphoria is often associated with mental illness, and transitioning is associated with a vast reduction in suicide rates and the like.

There’s no transition, you are whatever you were born. Maybe some glorified dress-up makes them feel a bit better but they’re still what they are.

[-james-]

Out of interest, what discrimination are they subjected to? I'm not aware of a minority getting a voice this big, this quickly, in all of human history.

You're surely aware of the general mistrust and harrasment that trans people have to deal with in the UK. It's completely normalized.

It's definitely come to the fore recently, but I don't think it's a bad thing.

[Yevrah]

You're surely aware of the general mistrust and harrasment that trans people have to deal with in the UK. It's completely normalized.

I'm not aware of trans people being harassed on a large scale, no. Maybe I live a fairly sheltered life and I sure as shit wouldn't associate myself with anyone who'd do that, but there we are.

[Manc]

Am I a bit of a woman?

Yes.

[Magic]

Been in to a bit of tran porn lately.

[Spikey M]

At work we have a Transgender resident. In the 3 years I've worked there she has had dog shit put through her letter box, spray paint on her windows, eggs thrown at her and daily verbal abuse.

Obviously this is a sample of one. A sample derived from an estate in Southend, no less. But she certainly gets alot of shit.

[Spikey M]

Yes.

Disappointed it took that long tbh.

[Boydy]

I won't pretend to understand it. Chiefly because I don't really understand what it is to feel a gender. I'm a man. Do I feel like a man? I don't know. I like football, but then so does my wife. Is she a man now? I like Eastenders. Am I a bit of a woman? What exactly is being felt when someone with a dick says that they feel like they should have a vagina? I've no idea.

For that reason I've just popped it on the "stuff I'll never understand" shelf next to Art and Jazz, and I just carry on with life. If I meet someone Transgender I call them by their preferred pronouns and name and just try my best not to be a dick. It requires basically no effort on my behalf, so why not?

It is wonderfully on brand that Panda has a Transgender Nephew to go with his Bipolar Pooch though. Front Row seats at the Coffee and Flatcap awards.

(My hipster stereotyping may well be about 10 years out of date.)

Yeah, flatcaps have been taken over by the Peaky Blinders-loving LADS now.

[Yevrah]

At work we have a Transgender resident. In the 3 years I've worked there she has had dog shit put through her letter box, spray paint on her windows, eggs thrown at her and daily verbal abuse.

Obviously this is a sample of one. A sample derived from an estate in Southend, no less. But she certainly gets alot of shit.

That is horrific. If the general experience is anything like being close to that then the movement the other way seems proportionate.

[Lofty]

I have a trans colleague, and have had them in the past. Not a problem.

I don't agree with transitioned people competing in sports when people like Castor Semenya are prohibited due to their natural biological chemistry.

I don't agree with the ease with which children seemingly have access to begin transitioning now, I find the whistleblower reports about it concerning. We all changed our minds about our major beliefs every 6 weeks as children.

I also agree it is too far to insist that a lifelong lesbian should not be averse to dating a pre op trans woman or else she is a TERF, that's just madness but apparently a genuine viewpoint. If I was single, would I be a bigot for not wanting to have sex with a pre op trans woman? It's essentially just gay sex then, isn't it? If I don't want to shag a granny or someone with bad teeth, small tits etc then that's my preference but if I don't want to be fiddling with a trans woman's tackle then I am the problem? I'm thankful I don't have these problems to contend with.

I know there are plenty of genuine trans cases and I am glad there is more support than ever for those people but I am concerned about how many kids are going to be changing their minds on this in the next decade, when things have progressed too far to revert.

[Yevrah]

TERF is a hateful phrase and really hasn't helped the movement. It gets chucked around like confetti.

[randomlegend]

People who are genuinely trans absolutely exist, but I think there's a not insignificant proportion of young people who say they are trans for whom it's more an expression of other distress/mental illness.

A lot of the kids at work we get to know because they make multiple suicide attempts, have shit lives/backgrounds and ongoing mental health issues are forever flip-flopping on their pronouns, their gender, changing their name, etc.

I'm not sure that's really an issue though, and I'm of course very happy to call them by whatever name/pronouns make them most comfortable. That cohort don't (as far as I've seen) generally have the conviction to start make irreversible changes but perhaps there are those around who do and regret it later.

[Jimmy Floyd]

My family started debating this wholesale over dinner on Christmas Eve. The full spectrum of opinions were offered, from 'it's a load of bollocks' to 'what about women's rights' and through to the one where you shut society down and just talk about trans rights forever.

I don't think I've ever had a longer period of not speaking at a dinner table. Maybe just after my mum referred to Lord Montague of Beaulieu as a 'notorious bugger' a couple of years back.

[Lewis]

I'm willing to believe that a tiny number of people are 'born in the wrong body', but that necessitates believing in such things as male and female brains, which blows a great big fucking hole through the rest of the theories and renders most of them merely mentally ill and/or fetishists. I'm happy to call them by whichever name they want to use, but wearing a dress and cutting your cock off doesn't make you a woman.

[Panda Bear]

I'm willing to believe that a tiny number of people are 'born in the wrong body', but that necessitates believing in such things as male and female brains, which blows a great big fucking hole through the rest of the theories and renders most of them merely mentally ill and/or fetishists. I'm happy to call them by whichever name they want to use, but wearing a dress and cutting your cock off doesn't make you a woman.Not only are you conflating gender and sex (good luck sorting out people who are intersex using your paradigm) in an essentialist argument, but your lack of insight into neuroscience shines through too. Congratulations on being regressive and poorly informed on the subject.

[Dquincy]

At work we have a Transgender resident. In the 3 years I've worked there she has had dog shit put through her letter box, spray paint on her windows, eggs thrown at her and daily verbal abuse.


Her postie sounds like a nightmare.

[Lewis]

I'm conflating it for good reason, and the tiny, tiny, tiny amount of intersex people are, by definition, outside of 'my' paradigm.

[Panda Bear]

It's not a good reason.

[Pepe]

* Biological sex is, without a doubt, a real thing. 'Trans' is a polemic nowadays almost exclusively because of the insistence to pretend otherwise with shit such as "assigned x at birth," "pregnant people," "cervix owners," etc. If Trans supporters dropped this aspect of their agenda, things would go a lot smoother for everyone, with transgender people benefitting the most.

* The sex-gender distinction was a useful Theory (of the sociological kind, not to be confused with scientific theories, which are a different thing altogether) for feminists, etc. to push for women's equality and gay rights. When it comes to transgenderism, however, it leads to too many incongruencies. This is not good for all the academics who have been insisting that their Theories are the truth for decades, and now they are having to grapple with that. The current solution seems to be to erase sex altogether, which leads to the point above.

* Gender dysphoria does seem to be a thing, to the best of our knowledge, and many sufferers of it do seem to do a lot better when allowed to transition into whatever they want to transition.

* Most people would probably be ok with letting people live in whichever way they want, as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread. It is the first point that creates contention. Of course you would still have transphobes, just like you still have homophobes, but overall society would move on, just like it has already to a great extent, and will continue to, when it comes to homosexuality. Heck, the law is already pretty much 100% on board with transgenderism.

* As has also been mentioned, 'trans' is cool nowadays, so a lot of kids are claiming to be x or y or z gender nowadays. It would seem that just letting kids deal with their lives in whichever way they prefer might be the best way to go about it, but I am not too sure. It might also be possible that more discipline could benefit children more than just letting them do/be whatever they want. This is a complicated topic that extends way beyond this issue, and it is an important one, with the wild increase in mental illness among the youth.

* Saying that 'what about the women' is all about covering up for bigots is incorrect. The current trend of trans activism affects mainly women, old-school feminists in particular, as well as old-school transgender people. Look at the main enemies of the movement and that is who you will find, JK Rowling being the most famous example.

So yeah, let people live in whichever way they want, accept that the academic theories that have come from the 'studies' crowd are all complete bollocks, and everyone will be happy. Until then, people will keep arguing over definitions, to the detriment of everyone.

[Giggles]

Not only are you conflating gender and sex (good luck sorting out people who are intersex using your paradigm) in an essentialist argument, but your lack of insight into neuroscience shines through too. Congratulations on being regressive and poorly informed on the subject.

You argue like a 10 year old.

[Dquincy]

I'm firmly in the JK Rowling camp on this one. She's correct in my opinion.

[mo]

This thread contains absolutely no surprises.

[Boydy]

That new Jon Ronson podcast series on BBC Sounds called Things Fell Apart is quite good. It's all about the earliest beginnings of the culture war. There's an episode on the trans rights debate.

[randomlegend]

I will say I think men who've transitioned to women being allowed to compete against women in sport is absurd and in the case of combat sports outright dangerous

[Jimmy Floyd]

I remember when I started at SOAS in 2009 there was a massive campus controversy about installing a gender-neutral toilet. That felt weird at the time or at least I had never heard of such a thing, so I think they (a bunch of bizarre folk from the extreme left, as at all universities but more so there) were at the leading edge of this whole thing.

Before then I just thought trans people were another branch of life's rich tapestry, rather than something that would come to dominate general discourse in some circles. I have never developed an 'opinion' on it, partly because opinions are bad, and partly because it ain't my fight.

[randomlegend]

They changed a load of the UEA toilets to gender neutral a year or so before I left.

The only insight I gained from it is that women must be absolute fucking animals because the state of the toilets declined drastically after the change. And not just mess either, fucking doors ripped off and shit.

[Spikey M]

The toilet drama has always seemed odd to me. There's cubicles. Nobody can see anything. You're just sharing taps.

[Dquincy]

Should add that the genre on pornhub is going very strong. Just in case that's a yardstick we can use. I think it is.

[Lofty]

I have used gender neutral toilets and it's all fine. I understand why some people are concerned, obviously I have less concerns than them as I am a giant straight white man with mega privileges.

An interesting point the less feminine lesbians have made about how you were just a tomboy if you were a girl a few decades ago who preferred wearing jeans, playing football etc and could be that regardless of your sexuality. Now it is almost backwards with gender roles that if you are interested in stuff that traditionally isn't in line with your gender you should book yourself in for some consultation before puberty hits.

[Panda Bear]

You argue like a 10 year old.okay