European Super League

[Yevrah]

This needs its own thread.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56795811

[Jimmy Floyd]

Here's the thing I don't understand. Let's say it is a (fairly dramatic) negotiating tactic. What is it that they're trying to negotiate that is of such amazing value added that they need to resort to pissing off their domestic fanbases and shitting on their own dignity?

Because, let's face it, the status quo is brilliant for the clubs concerned, and the proposed Champions League reforms only make things even better.

[Yevrah]

Real must recognise that La Liga is becoming moribund though, no?

[Yevrah]

The biggest lol for me about the whole thing is the rug of cuntery being pulled out from under UEFA and FIFA's very own feet.

[Gray Fox]

It's the scale of the money involved that's maddening. A good run in the Champions League right now will gain you £50-70m in a season. The way they've announced this, just for signing up clubs will get £300m each, then there'll be further money in the pot. And it will be guaranteed for all of the clubs that have signed up. €10bn to be shared among the founding clubs over the "initial commitment."

[Spikey M]

The only way I'd care in any way is if the 6 clubs joining from the premiership were to disappear and the entire English pyramid were to jump 6 places, thus saving Southend from all but guaranteed relegation.

That said, Covid has pretty much killed all interest I have in the sport anyway. Not that it wasn't already dwindling long before that.

[Kikó]

It's grubby and can fuck off. As if I needed more conformation that United's owners were only interested in one thing.

Dock them points, relegate them from the top leagues, do whatever it takes. Reform the league while you've got a chance (nationalise the top clubs if you want to get a fans model).

[Ian]

I voted disgrace. I don't personally have the enthusiasm to get actually angry about it but I find it hard to muster any joy for football these days anyway and I can see why people would get worked up about it. The top European Leagues and UEFA/FIFA have absolutely no grounds to play the victim here but you'd think they hold the power. I'd LOVE IT if they called these teams' bluff. Bar them and their players from any of their competitions and tell them to piss off and see how they get on.

It is presumably just trying to get a(n even) better cut of the Champions League money for the unwatchable new group phase we're getting.

[niko_cee]

They don't actually have the nukes for mutually assured destruction though.

The Champions League and The Premier League die a death without their biggest draws. The nature of fandom means the clubs will endure in the long run. The footballing authorities have created this mess to a large extent, by creating such inequitable structures and pandering to [and emboldening] the marquee clubs for so long. For all the threats, FIFA effectively reducing the World Cup to an amateur affair is not exactly going to be a winning formula is it? And as far as I can see that is the only vaguely viable threat.

I agree this does seem pretty extreme as a 'negotiating tactic' - particularly after PROJECT BIG PICTURE rapidly went in the bin - so you have to imagine something is actually going to happen, which will probably be pretty shit.

It's obviously a complete disgrace but I'm not sure I have it in me to be at all bothered, so conflicted on voting.

It would be good to see someone like Klopp come out against it and just walk away but I highly doubt that'll happen.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The naive international fanbase might endure but I genuinely don't think a lot of the domestic fanbase would. I have supported Chelsea for 25 years (often as a paying customer) but I couldn't give the first fuck how they get on in the European Super League. Why would I? We don't have to qualify for it, we aren't there on merit, we're there because our owner has conspired with some other owners to make themselves a shit ton more money. It doesn't matter to the fan. It's meaningless.

[Shindig]

The only way I'd care in any way is if the 6 clubs joining from the premiership were to disappear and the entire English pyramid were to jump 6 places, thus saving Southend from all but guaranteed relegation.

That should happen right now. Cancel the six's remaining games, move everyone up. Let them have their shitting NFL staged in Dubai watched exclusively by Singapore betting agents.

[Ian]

And if they did get kicked out of the big tournaments and domestic leagues then even the domestic fanbase who do stick with it, if they actually like football and don't just watch their team out of habit then they're going to need to seek out other football to watch while these 15 clubs works out what happens after they've played each other once a year and so they'll inevitably stick with their Sky and BT subscriptions, though the effect of all this on that if it happened would be interesting too.

I might be talking myself into equal parts thinking it's a DISGRACE but also wanting it to go ahead just to see what happens. If it triggered some sort of financial collapse among the footballing elite (and some of them already seem pretty close) then maybe I'm all for it after all.

[Manc]

The FIFA M8 generation will be climaxing at the very thought of a ESL.

[Spikey M]

The naive international fanbase might endure but I genuinely don't think a lot of the domestic fanbase would. I have supported Chelsea for 25 years (often as a paying customer) but I couldn't give the first fuck how they get on in the European Super League. Why would I? We don't have to qualify for it, we aren't there on merit, we're there because our owner has conspired with some other owners to make themselves a shit ton more money. It doesn't matter to the fan. It's meaningless.

I'm on the fence with this. It SHOULD render the whole thing pointless and ruin the lot of them, but, as with the forming of FC United of Manchester, the majority of fans are too fickle to make it stick and the domestic market is the tip of the iceberg these days.

They don't care about upsetting Dave who's watched every home game from the Shed end since he was kid when there's eleventy billion Asians still buying every bit of tat with a Chelsea badge on it

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'd be happy to watch a domestic season minus the six as a 'neutral', though obviously I'd be pretty upset (at least as far as hopefully balanced adults get 'upset' about professional sport) that my lifelong club had chosen to vote itself out of a great thing in order for the ownership to make more money.

More likely though most of my football watching time would just go to other sports/activities.

[Shindig]

The FIFA M8 generation will be climaxing at the very thought of a ESL.

I might dust off my copy of FIFA '99. I need to see which clubs they have down in that Superleague.

[Kikó]

The FIFA M8 generation will be climaxing at the very thought of a ESL.

I think this is it really. Support the players/the franchise rather than have any affiliation with the club.

I feel as sick as I did at the Glazer takeover.

[Ian]

More likely though most of my football watching time would just go to other sports/activities.

I think this would be it with me. Big finals, maybe, and international tournaments I'd still watch but I already barely watch any club football I'm a 'neutral' for these days and I don't think that'd suddenly change.

[Kikó]

1384062591450771465?s=20

Sums it up.

[niko_cee]

If whatever this is runs alongside domestic football I don't think that would be the case (total loss of interest). Obviously all bets are off if this is a stand-alone franchise league type thing and is the only thing that the entrants are participating in. More likely it's just a anti-UEFA power grab which has been on the cards for a long time and/or a 'new format' for the European Cup, which has happened before. In theory it's rubbish and anti-competitive and whatnot, but in reality football is rubbish and anti-competitive, always has been, and is what 'the fans' actually buy into (see the Why England Lose etc book).

In terms of turning off 'traditional fans', they've been doing that for years anyway with pricing, and as has been pointed out, this is aimed at the sort of twats who follow footballers on social media and invest large sums into wank like FIFA games. The stadiums will still be full, even if the atmosphere isn't the same (plus ca change) and I guess they've learned they can pipe a lot of that in anyway.

Aye, 'legacy fans' sums it up pretty well.

[-james-]

I'm mostly interested in the carnage that will ensue if UEFA actually do what they're threatening and immediately ban the involved clubs from all competitions and players of those clubs from the Euros.

[Yevrah]

It's the scale of the money involved that's maddening. A good run in the Champions League right now will gain you £50-70m in a season. The way they've announced this, just for signing up clubs will get £300m each, then there'll be further money in the pot. And it will be guaranteed for all of the clubs that have signed up. €10bn to be shared among the founding clubs over the "initial commitment."

How badly have UEFA been running things to only be operating at 20% of what the clubs could have got? And really, will this be any worse than that Swiss style format abomination they'd put forward?

[Spikey M]

I'm mostly interested in the carnage that will ensue if UEFA actually do what they're threatening and immediately ban the involved clubs from all competitions and players of those clubs from the Euros.

That would probably put me firmly in the "bring it on" camp. Love a shambles :drool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm mostly interested in the carnage that will ensue if UEFA actually do what they're threatening and immediately ban the involved clubs from all competitions and players of those clubs from the Euros.

The one thing I am absolutely all for is that kind of bloodbath.

'Legacy fans' is so lol. And I said years ago that as soon as Americans started owning clubs they would want something like this - relegation is not in the American psyche, the very idea makes them feel hurt and confused.

[Kikó]

The Swiss style format which is ironically done to placate the big clubs.

[7om]

“Fans of the future”.

Fuck these clubs. They probably love the covid restrictions with no fans in the stadium. Now they’ve got a great opportunity to sack off their local fans and focus on selling cheap tat to the Chinese while playing in these All Star games.

[Spikey M]

1384044530551324672?s=19

#SomehowAboutLiverpoolCovid

Isn't that your mate, Keeks?

[Don]

It's surely no bluff when it's this reckless. I don't have a great deal of hope in the younger generations but I don't think there's many over the a certain age who would be drawn in by the promise of Mbappe, Haaland, etc (even assuming ESL somehow manage to get the best 100 players in the world signed up). Add in the competitive nature and match day experience of Legacy Football and this shit will just collapse almost instantly like those failed TV deals but with the added beauty of making it almost impossible for these clubs to work their way back in to the picture.

Have faith, this will end well. Either that or I'll at least finally have a cause for martyrdom.

[Kikó]

1384044530551324672?s=19

#SomehowAboutLiverpoolCovid

Isn't that your mate, Keeks?

He's lost the plot. Check out the quote tweets, they're brilliant.

[Yevrah]

The Swiss style format which is ironically done to placate the big clubs.

Absolutely understand that it was, but why should they need to be placated in the first place? If European football and World football had been run properly then I'd sympathise with them, but they've had their snouts in the trough for decades so I find it pretty hard to. In fact, it's pretty lol from where I'm sitting - the gravy train is over gents.

This is all a bit like Blockbuster video mailing physical copies of DVD's to people while proper outfits who understood the times had changed were nailing the streaming side of things.

[Manc]

I need a minute by minute on this injected into my veins.

[Baz]

I'm mostly interested in the carnage that will ensue if UEFA actually do what they're threatening and immediately ban the involved clubs from all competitions and players of those clubs from the Euros.Got your life savings on France to win Euro 2020 yet? :youpi:

[Ian]

England would be losing Stones, Maguire and Walker. :drool:

Obviously Kane too but I'm sure somebody else can practice penalties ahead of the tournament.

IT'S COMING HOME.

[Dquincy]

That should happen right now. Cancel the six's remaining games, move everyone up. Let them have their shitting NFL staged in Dubai watched exclusively by Singapore betting agents.
Would absolutely love this to happen and see the carnage ensue. But doubt they have the balls (and legal appeals will no doubt follow).

[Bernanke]

Would absolutely love this to happen and see the carnage ensue. But doubt they have the balls (and legal appeals will no doubt follow).

I can imagine quite a few sponsors would absolutely lose their shit, with years of lawsuits to follow.

[SvN]

I love that Yev has answered his own poll with "Who cares?".

[Bernanke]

SI on top of things.

1384080217401028610

[Ian]

Josh voted Bring It On, the world holds its breath to see where the Greg vote falls.

[-james-]

Got your life savings on France to win Euro 2020 yet? :youpi:

I was trying to figure out who would be favourite if you ban ESL players and it's probably Germany, isn't it?

[Gray Fox]

While this is all going in the real question remains, what was Paul Pogba doing?

https://i.gyazo.com/36fda94ef81916a894c9182a67736dce.png

[Alex]

The whole concept of a "European Super League" smacks of something you drafted up and attempted to play out with your mates on FIFA when you were 12, and then got bored of in an afternoon. Silly cunts.

[Jimmy Floyd]

One of the interesting dynamics in how this plays out will be whether those players/managers who work hard to have (and I'm sure genuinely believe in) an image rooted in social responsibility - think Rashford, Sterling, Mata, Klopp and others - will go along with their owners in something as nakedly awful as this.

It's not really fair on them to have such a dilemma but I guess it comes with the territory.

[Don]

The big-hitters have already come out, I've seen comments from Ander Herrera, Bacary Sagna and Patrick van Aanholt...

Klopp and the players being left to do tonight's media sessions without a statement (or probably even direction) from the club is magic. I hear Tuchel has a pre-match conference this afternoon too.

I'd really like to just stop following Liverpool from today like a cliff-edge but it's not happening, I'll watch the game as usual. I need to spend some time considering how I will focus my extra time and energy now but I don't see a way back beyond this season.

[Spikey M]

One of the interesting dynamics in how this plays out will be whether those players/managers who work hard to have (and I'm sure genuinely believe in) an image rooted in social responsibility - think Rashford, Sterling, Mata, Klopp and others - will go along with their owners in something as nakedly awful as this.

It's not really fair on them to have such a dilemma but I guess it comes with the territory.

I wonder if there will be contractual issues too. I haven't seen a footballers contract, but considering the money involved I am assuming they're pretty detailed and the club choosing to join a new league, potentially at the expense of sacrificing many other competitions makes things muddy as hell.

Especially if the players have success based rewards drafted into their contracts.

[Alex]

What I would give for a full capacity Elland Road making its opinion clear on the matter tonight. It would be an absolute cauldron.

[Kikó]

The big-hitters have already come out, I've seen comments from Ander Herrera, Bacary Sagna and Patrick van Aanholt...

Klopp and the players being left to do tonight's media sessions without a statement (or probably even direction) from the club is magic. I hear Tuchel has a pre-match conference this afternoon too.

I'd really like to just stop following Liverpool from today like a cliff-edge but it's not happening, I'll watch the game as usual. I need to spend some time considering how I will focus my extra time and energy now but I don't see a way back beyond this season.

Grow a spine.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

If this goes ahead then it more than likely kills off football for me, although I'd probably still watch international tournaments.

[Spikey M]

If this goes ahead then it more than likely kills off football for me, although I'd probably still watch international tournaments.

I have pretty much transitioned to this over the last year. It's unsurprisingly liberating not giving a team of millionaires the ability to make or break your weekend.

[Bob Sacamano]

What I would give for a full capacity Elland Road making its opinion clear on the matter tonight. It would be an absolute cauldron.
Although he's speaking out against it let's not pretend Radrizanni and the 49ers would have jumped at the chance to get it involved in this.

[Ian]

I wonder who the biggest/best club is in England that has an owner who'd actually have been against it given the chance to be in it?

[Spikey M]

I wonder who the biggest/best club is in England that has an owner who'd actually have been against it given the chance to be in it?

Newcastle. Michael is a man of principle. A man of the people.

[Don]

Grow a spine.

It's not about morals, the club and everything associated with it holds no meaning to me any more, that ship has sailed.

The problem is I've conditioned myself over the best part of 25 years to attach incredible value to this sport. It's literally been at the centre of my life. I can't just turn that instinct off like a tap so I'll still watch the game tonight. What I'll be feeling during it I'm not sure yet. I'd back Leeds but what damage would that do to the club? Minimal. I'll probably still enjoy seeing the team I cared so much about as a remembrance service tonight. The real interest will be if the players and staff take a stand. Get the Suarez tshirts rehashed, get Klopp to instruct them to allow Leeds to walk it in (after which Bielsa can do likewise), watch the Kop get molotov cocktailed by the working class fuckers whose livelihoods have been taken away from them, those are the real things I will get excited about.

[John Arne]

UEFA can fuck off, too - acting the innocent party and then TODAY confirming the new 2024 format, which includes "spots for non-qualified elites clubs".

https://gyazo.com/815ba0f5e1a995441a4f8c2cd2aff867.jpeg

[Spikey M]

UEFA can fuck off, too - acting the innocent party and then TODAY confirming the new 2024 format, which includes "spots for non-qualified elites clubs".

https://gyazo.com/815ba0f5e1a995441a4f8c2cd2aff867.jpeg

:lol:

[Waffdon]

How can players even be banned from playing for their countries in tournaments. It’s not their fault if it goes ahead.

[Dquincy]

One of the interesting dynamics in how this plays out will be whether those players/managers who work hard to have (and I'm sure genuinely believe in) an image rooted in social responsibility - think Rashford, Sterling, Mata, Klopp and others - will go along with their owners in something as nakedly awful as this.

It's not really fair on them to have such a dilemma but I guess it comes with the territory.

This.

As of yet, I've not seen one player from the 'big clubs' come out and make a statement or comment. All of them so far are from people who didn't make the cut.

The position some of these so called social responsibility players are now put in is :drool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

I can only imagine that currently both they, the relevant FAs/leagues and UEFA/FIFA are all on the toilet Donald Gennaro style trying to decide what action to take.

The only possible action is just to throw them out of all comps with immediate effect and ban all associated players from the Euros. As soon as you start to negotiate terms or back down even a little, you've already lost.

[Spikey M]

Words cannot express how desperate I am for that to happen.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It is all pretty popcorn.gif, tbh, I can't see them kissing and making up. Read the below with the knowledge that Ceferin is godfather to one of Agnelli's children


Alexander Ceferin, the president of Uefa, takes ESL clubs and execs to task

“If I start with Ed Woodward, he called me last Thursday evening saying he’s very satisfied with and fully supports the reforms [to the Champions League]. The only thing he want to talk about was FFP, when obviously he had already signed something else ... Andrea Agnelli is the biggest disappointment of all, I’ve never seen a person that would lie so many times, so persistently as he did. It’s unbelievable ... We didn’t know we had snakes so close to us, now we know.”

[Yevrah]

The ironic thing is that bar the closed shop nature of it, what these clubs are proposing actually sounds better than anything UEFA have come up with.

Their 2024 proposals are truly dreadful.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What they are proposing is far worse than anything football has seen to date, because it's a closed shop and not based on merit.

[Mr. Malik]

Somebody on reddit plagiarized Jimmy's post, word for word. The cheek

https://i.imgur.com/unQmhMX.jpg

[John Arne]

I've seen a few tweets blaming "Asian fans" for this nonsense. I would reiterate, midweek games are shit for Asian fans... I can't imagine 2am or 3am kick offs generating that much in Asian TV deals and replica shirts.

Also, who the fuck wants to watch these games. I enjoy Liverpool playing a big team every now and then, but not every fucking week. Give me a trip to Sheff United over playing Barcacuntinglona and the like every fucking week.

[Don]

Is that a bot or is some tragic bastard putting in a shift for reddit points? :D

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Is that a bot or is some tragic bastard putting in a shift for reddit points? :D

Tragic bastard I think.

They've deleted their account now :harold:

[Kikó]

Who's Mr Malik?

[Ian]

An occasional cricket thread poster, I think.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I don't mind being plagiarised for my scorching (ow!) hot takes as long as they don't nab my golf tips.

[Don]

You really do forget the state of the wrong'uns this place harbours until you're brought back to the cold harsh reality every now and then.

[Manc]

I nominate Don. That's two attempts to throw us off the scent. Kiko is obviously Mr Malik.

[Ian]

More troubling than the idea of somebody nicking posts and using them on Reddit is the thought that Jimmy's real name is Sean and the posts are gone because he's been rumbled.

[Lewis]

I don't think it will actually happen provided the rest of the sport holds its nerve. If they could get the message across that anyone associated it with wouldn't be welcome elsewhere, domestically and internationally, like how rugby union used to shun people 'going North', then players aren't going to touch it.

[Yevrah]

I don't think it will actually happen provided the rest of the sport holds its nerve. If they could get the message across that anyone associated it with wouldn't be welcome elsewhere, domestically and internationally, like how rugby union used to shun people 'going North', then players aren't going to touch it.

The problem with that is is that if you're taking the best players with you (and those players hold their nerve) there won't be much left worth bothering with.

[Kikó]

Best players won't want to play if they are not able to play international football and shunned from domestic leagues.

[Don]

That's nonsense, it's a team sport, no individual wields that level of power and 100-200 of the best isn't a big enough population to overcome the shortcomings of the format.

Edit: at Yev.

These lizards will presumably propose their own international tournament which would be just an extension of the ESL so yeah, they're fucked if they think they have the power.

[Ian]

Are their contracts likely to specify specific competitions for bonuses, etc. too? i.e. Champions League win or goals or whatever vs. 'European competition'? No idea how that stuff works.

[Dquincy]

I nominate Don. That's two attempts to throw us off the scent. Kiko is obviously Mr Malik.

:lol: Brilliant, made me lol.

[Lewis]

The problem with that is is that if you're taking the best players with you (and those players hold their nerve) there won't be much left worth bothering with.


Best players won't want to play if they are not able to play international football and shunned from domestic leagues.

You would have to be a very confident player (or content to have an eight year career) to assume that you will always be wanted by one of these top dozen clubs. Alternatively, the clubs expected to make up the Best of the Rest in this competition could all just say we have no interest in it and then it starts to fall apart at the seams.

[niko_cee]

Players are ten a penny.

The funny thing is that the logical end game for this sort of shit is an NFL style situation where player power is basically non-existent because of the total closed shop nature of it. That's why they give the trophies to the owners. They're the important people.

[Yevrah]

You would have to be a very confident player (or content to have an eight year career) to assume that you will always be wanted by one of these top dozen clubs. Alternatively, the clubs expected to make up the Best of the Rest in this competition could all just say we have no interest in it and then it starts to fall apart at the seams.

When the sums of money we're talking about come into the equation for the players then I'm pretty sure there'll risk it.

This is either the most insane form of bluff I've ever seen, or it's happening. I'm inclined to believe in the latter.

[Yevrah]

That's nonsense, it's a team sport, no individual wields that level of power and 100-200 of the best isn't a big enough population to overcome the shortcomings of the format.

Edit: at Yev.

These lizards will presumably propose their own international tournament which would be just an extension of the ESL so yeah, they're fucked if they think they have the power.

They do have the power and they absolutely will do that. Football as a commercial enterprise (and let's not kid ourselves, that's absolutely what it's been since the 90s) is nothing without these 15 clubs.

[Lewis]

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I think bluff, but they could also just be big enough whoppers to think that the rest of football will come round if a few crumbs fall their way (which you would have good reason to think if you were a Spanish or Italian club since their broadcasting already works that way).

[Dquincy]

With fan revolts such as this, the Super League will soon be conceding defeat.

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[Don]

The sport is still at the heart of it though and this is crucial if they want to keep milking it. What they're proposing destroys that and sure, a bunch of rich cunts will swan around in Riyahdh kicking a football around and getting richer off JP Morgan's money for a limited time but it's not sustainable. Legacy Football may lose out significantly in that short period but the odds are vwry much in its favour.

[Yevrah]

I was with bluff for a few minutes, but I just couldn't reconcile why. I still can't.

[Ian]

If it is a bluff, which I'm still leaning towards, then it's just to make the Champions League even more secure for themselves.

Even seeing the absolute turd UEFA are curling out for the revamp there's still a chance a badly run club (and the amount of debt a bunch of them are riddled with is laughable) could collapse and drop out altogether and basically they want immunity to incompetence.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's not a bluff and it's not a negotiating tactic. Just look at Ceferin's quotes. Those are not the quotes of a man playing the game. They are the quotes of a man who has been blindsided/fucked over, and wants blood.

I think we're all giving the 12 far too much credit in terms of how much nous and wider understanding they have. They didn't do clever things to get into the position they're in. They didn't engineer the football boom; they just rode it, or in some cases piggybacked on it. Most of them are sons of rich fathers, heirs, oil princes, or in Florentino Perez's case, people whose entire lives have been one long subsidised ego trip. They know of very little beyond doing dodgy deals with other rich men.

[Dquincy]

I agree with Sean.

[Alex]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/19/super-league-players-face-world-cup-and-euros-ban-warns-furious-uefa-chief


He added: “They write in their press release about solidarity, they don’t know S about solidarity. They want to be famous. They will be famous in the wrong way.”

Go on son.

These are actual, WWE levels of shit talking. :cool:

[Ian]

If it's a ploy (they may not be genius schemers but they know about making themselves richer) UEFA/FIFA/national associations kicking their toys out of the pram would have been deemed an acceptable part of that.

[niko_cee]

It's not a bluff. It's give me my £300m (or whatever) now, the parasites can cream off what they can, and if it all blows up in 5 years who gives a fuck? This isn't a problem specific to football. It is the basic ethos of Corporate America/private equity et al. Get your big deal/merger over the line, rake out the money, leave some other chumps to pick up the pieces.

[Dquincy]

Petty...and I'm all for it.

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[Dquincy]

If the breakaway clubs were evicted from the Champions League, this would be potentially be the qualifiers for next seasons Champions League.

1384157052847550468

[Yevrah]

No way PSG aren't one of the unnamed clubs.

[Alex]

"Living the dream" all over again. :cool:

Get Ridsdale and the expensive fish tank back.

[Jimmy Floyd]

No way PSG aren't one of the unnamed clubs.

Signs are that they aren't, which is another interesting aspect. Bayern, Leipzig and Porto were said to be the three.

[niko_cee]

Who's the other German club everyone hates? Hoffenheim? Are they a one man ownership band?

PSG probably aren't invited as they are a bit of an affront to the traditional order of things - it's tricky nuancing your position as Real/Milan. All money to us please, but no new money for any upstarts. City and Chelsea get passes because you pretty much have to invite half the Premier League to make it commercially viable (see Spurs and Arsenal being at the table).

[thommo]

Dortmund released a statement saying they were completely against it and I've seen that Rummenigge has said Bayern are not in favour too. Porto have also come out and said they rejected an invitation.

[Alex]

No way PSG aren't one of the unnamed clubs.

The cynic in me says they're only distanced from it for the time being to avoid drawing FIFA's ire somehow in the run up to the next World Cup. I'm basing this on absolutely nothing (and I can't be bothered to investigate) but surely the Qatari ownership of PSG has some financial stake in the World Cup successfully happening in their home country next year.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If Bayern and PSG are out, then the 12 will struggle I would guess, and the whole thing will blow up in their faces.

The only thing worse than the proposed Super League would be one which doesn't even contain the biggest clubs, it would have no legitimacy even on its own terms.

[niko_cee]

Also there's no real reason for Bayern or PSG to want in. They happily exist in entirely non-competitive environments [carefully curated over decades in Bayern's case] and have essentially no concerns about ever not qualifying for whatever the premier European competition is every season, they have no real need of money either.

[Dquincy]

If Bayern and PSG are out, then the 12 will struggle I would guess, and the whole thing will blow up in their faces.

The only thing worse than the proposed Super League would be one which doesn't even contain the biggest clubs, it would have no legitimacy even on its own terms.

Fuck that bollocks, it's got Spurs in it. Already makes it a mockery regardless of who else is joining. That and the fact there is not an equal amount from each country is irrationally annoying me.

[Offshore Toon]

If PSG want to win the Champions League that bad then I can see why they'd turn it down.

[niko_cee]

Aside from the obviously highly emotive reactions from all and sundry, it'll be interesting to see the proposed nuts and bolts of this, and if there is THAT much more money that the beneficent overlords can perhaps dole out to the domestic vassal leagues, whether the reaction will be the same when it turns out the whole idea is to gyp the smaller UEFA nations of their share of the pot.

It's odd that you wouldn't have this sort of thing all worked out before leaking it to the world.

If the top teams really do drive all the revenue in football, and commit to putting a chunk of it back into their domestic leagues to make them better off (arf) and the only losers are UEFA/the pissant nations I can see a lot of the outrage falling away. The Champions League already is a closed shop, the new proposals for it make it even more of one. Atalanta are never going to win it. If they can get bunged however many million a year in perpetuity against a once in every X decades chance of earning a fraction more by being part of it (but not winning it) are they really going to be that bothered?

It's an outrage against principle, but of very little practical difference.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Those bungs always dry up though, and unlike (say) county cricket where they all voted themselves into a doom spiral for a cash injection now, I don't think the rest of football is particularly reliant on the big clubs, necessarily, especially not in a world where the pecking order has been blown up with 10 tonnes of dynamite and you don't need to pay people 100,000 a week to compete with the (now absent) big boys.

[Dquincy]

Is this the consequence of allowing foreign ownership of English Premier League clubs?

Yes it is.

Close thread.

[Dquincy]

Actually...Levy isn't a forrin.

Re-open thread.

[-james-]

Sky are making Monday Night Football free to air tonight. Should be box office.

[Shindig]

Would absolutely love this to happen and see the carnage ensue. But doubt they have the balls (and legal appeals will no doubt follow).

Not just that. How the hell are the clubs going to fund this? Going from a 34-38 game league season (plus cup games and European games - So 50+) to a 23 game season. They've only lost £100m in revenue from Covid and the majority of that is gate receipts and matchday experience bollocks. How is halving your home gate going to balance that out?

It's a bizarre move.

[niko_cee]

Those bungs always dry up though, and unlike (say) county cricket where they all voted themselves into a doom spiral for a cash injection now, I don't think the rest of football is particularly reliant on the big clubs, necessarily, especially not in a world where the pecking order has been blown up with 10 tonnes of dynamite and you don't need to pay people 100,000 a week to compete with the (now absent) big boys.

Aye, but this is the type of beyond the length of your nose thinking that hasn't existed in the administration of sport for about 3 decades.


Not just that. How the hell are the clubs going to fund this? Going from a 34-38 game league season (plus cup games and European games - So 50+) to a 23 game season. They've only lost £100m in revenue from Covid and the majority of that is gate receipts and matchday experience bollocks. How is halving your home gate going to balance that out?

It's a bizarre move.

It's intended to run alongside (some form of) domestic competitions.

[Shindig]

That only works out if they all join La Liga.

[Yevrah]

Is this the consequence of allowing foreign ownership of English Premier League clubs?

Yes it is.

Close thread.

It's the consequence of football being a business, which it's been for decades now, as much as people might try and ignore that fact.

[Yevrah]

The government has launched a "fan-led review" of football

Thank fuck for that. Now we've got the fans involved it's problem solved.

[Dquincy]

http://news.sky.com/story/breakaway-super-league-a-spit-in-the-face-of-football-lovers-uefa-chief-says-12280398

Now we're talking. :drool:

[Lewis]

What can the government do that wouldn't fall foul of interference in football that FIFA likes to pretend isn't allowed, or just a general ballsing up of private business affairs with possible wider ramifications?

[Shindig]

PSG winning by default. They'll take that. :D

[Yevrah]

http://news.sky.com/story/breakaway-super-league-a-spit-in-the-face-of-football-lovers-uefa-chief-says-12280398

Now we're talking. :drool:

They absolutely have to be. By all means consult the lawyers, but it's the only course of action to take.

Not that it'll make much difference, it's game over for UEFA.

[Manc]

City. :happycry:

[Dquincy]

PSG winning by default. They'll take that. :D
...and then they declare they're joining the Super League the day after the Champions League final. Lols.

[Shindig]

I hope they don't give the trophy back. :D

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I hope they don't give the trophy back. :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrLwrBLV-lo

[7om]

What can the government do that wouldn't fall foul of interference in football that FIFA likes to pretend isn't allowed, or just a general ballsing up of private business affairs with possible wider ramifications?

Once suggestion I’ve seen floated about is that the government could take actions against the players. Not issuing visas for foreign players and staff, revoking licenses for academies and things of that nature. Sounds like it would be dragged through the courts for eternity though.

[Shindig]

I was thinking more like when TNA stuck a sticker over the the GFW belt.

[Dquincy]

See the tits on the blonde fella.

[Lewis]

They'll do a Jeff Jarrett and have their World Cup guaranteed before dropping it to whoever in the UEFA Super Cup.

[Lewis]

If you're even thinking about changing the channel to the European Super League, fans, do not. Because we understand that Romelu Lukaku, who played here one time as a bloater with the first touch of a kerbstone, starts tonight against Barcelona. Ha. That's gonna put some butts in the seats.

WCW gimmicked 'AND IT'S LIVE!' as well. All coming together this. :drool:

[randomlegend]

Once suggestion I’ve seen floated about is that the government could take actions against the players. Not issuing visas for foreign players and staff, revoking licenses for academies and things of that nature. Sounds like it would be dragged through the courts for eternity though.

Not issuing visas because you don't like what some football teams did has got to be seriously dodgy legal ground surely?

[niko_cee]

Probably not. Revoking work permits and the like is probably all the easier in BREXIT BRITAIN.

[Lewis]

lol at the tone of this coverage. It's like a dry run for when Alex Ferguson dies.

[Shindig]

WCW gimmicked 'AND IT'S LIVE!' as well. All coming together this. :drool:

"This game's going into a extra time but we don't have any left. GOODNIGHT FO.."

[Spikey M]

Looking forward to Paul Heyman replacing a Leukaemia sufferer and walking Harry Maguire onto the pitch.

[Lewis]

What is Steve Parish hiding behind those weirdly-placed shirts?

[Jimmy Floyd]

What can the government do that wouldn't fall foul of interference in football that FIFA likes to pretend isn't allowed, or just a general ballsing up of private business affairs with possible wider ramifications?

Purely by taking a side they put more pressure on the rebels, they don't have to do anything concrete. However, if needed they could probably rule that all professional football in the UK must be sanctioned by the FA, or similar.

My reading of this is that the rebels don't have anywhere near as strong a hand as they think they do. The impending absurdity of the whole venture will whittle its value right down.

[7om]

Not issuing visas because you don't like what some football teams did has got to be seriously dodgy legal ground surely?

It's got to be but I'm not a lawyer (I'm...). One way around it could be to say these six clubs no longer have the right to apply for permits or visas, rather than outright rejecting the individual.

Got to say I've thoroughly enjoyed the seethe on offer on Sky Sports over the last hour. Wouldn't suprise me if this was just one massive work to get people interested in, and talking about, the PRODUCT again. This is the busiest football thread we've had in ages.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's by far the biggest story in football since the PL breakaway. Maybe longer.

[Cord]

I've tried to think of things that would interest me in this new setup, and I can only think of seeing how Spurs/Arsenal react when they realise they've signed themselves up to be a sort of nu-West Brom, one that won't go down no matter how many times you flush, while simultaneously making the traditional scrap for 4th in the domestic league entirely pointless.

Even if the whole thing is designed around being able to say you have Barcelona's phone number and that they come round to visit loads, it's hardly going to convert into a legion of overseas fans when you are a total irrelevance in almost everything you do.

[Kikó]

Devote your time to lower League football. This is the break most people have been waiting for.

[Reg]

How do, let’s say, Spurs look if Kane and Son get 6 month injuries, they prioritise the Super League games, and their second string fall in the Premier League, resulting in relegation?

Not so super if you’re playing in the second tier.

Anyway, I would say hopefully them and the five others don’t even get a shot at relegation and they’re booted out of the league... but that’s not really fair to fans. Is there any satisfactory ending to this? It seems not. An exciting one, maybe, but not a nice one.

[niko_cee]

I've tried to think of things that would interest me in this new setup, and I can only think of seeing how Spurs/Arsenal react when they realise they've signed themselves up to be a sort of nu-West Brom, one that won't go down no matter how many times you flush, while simultaneously making the traditional scrap for 4th in the domestic league entirely pointless.

Even if the whole thing is designed around being able to say you have Barcelona's phone number and that they come round to visit loads, it's hardly going to convert into a legion of overseas fans when you are a total irrelevance in almost everything you do.

It's as if Arsenal have completely forgotten the last however many years of their Champions League participation, but instead of having Bayern Munich ruin your season in February every year, someone gets to do it every other week..

[Yevrah]

My reading of this is that the rebels don't have anywhere near as strong a hand as they think they do.

Why is that?

[Spoonsky]

Devote your time to lower League football. This is the break most people have been waiting for.

:thbup:

If this broke the global cultural hegemony of the biggest clubs it would be a nice top, although that's hard to imagine. But you can kind of imagine a lot of 'legacy fans' (ffs) turning back toward their local clubs if this became entrenched.

[Spoonsky]

http://news.sky.com/story/breakaway-super-league-a-spit-in-the-face-of-football-lovers-uefa-chief-says-12280398

Now we're talking. :drool:

What I don't understand is why they've chosen this moment to announce it. UEFA have so much leverage right now, both to ban the clubs from the ongoing CL semifinals and also to ban the players from the Euros in three month's time. Why not wait a little?

I'm also wondering if the three 'yet-to-be-announced' clubs are starting to reconsider.

[Shindig]

If it was a bargaining play, they would've announced it with much, much more support. They'd have the league filled and it wouldn't have been stacked with six English clubs.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why is that?

Let's set it out like a battlefield. On Team USA we have:

- The 12 club names
- The 12 club crests
- The 12 stadia
- Existing contracts between the 12 clubs and their players / sponsors
- An apparent barrel of private equity money as well as that they generate themselves
- Determination and greed

Meanwhile Team Football have this:

- All other football clubs, crests and stadia, including numerous big hitters
- All established football competitions - local, national, international
- UEFA
- FIFA
- The Champions League, the Premier League, the Euros, the World Cup, the pull of international football and the vast amount of money generated by international tournaments
- The weight of proven history
- Governmental backing in all relevant countries
- All other footballers and their contracts
- A not inconsiderable amount of their own cash
- Media opinion
- Public opinion

I think once reality sets in and their bluff gets called, Team USA are basically left with the contents of a Panini sticker album and an oil tanker full of cash. If you think the cash alone can defeat the massed forces of Team Football, I think you're being a little bit too cynical. I'm really not sure it can. The biggest obstacle they will have to overcome is the constant barrage of negative PR shelling. Will big sponsors want to associate themselves with it if the media and public opinion are dead and lost? Will the private equity cash start to dry up once they see how the land really lies?

I think there are two possibilities as to how the 12 owners are approaching this:

1) They know that PR will be awful, but think they can win it back over time with a combination of money and product
2) They know that PR will be awful, but they don't care, because they think they can make more money from eyeballs in Indonesia/wherever even if all established football supporters hate it

[Spoonsky]

Have FIFA spoken about it?

You'd think if they pulled the same threat that UEFA has but about the World Cup it would be dead in the water. I don't see any player choosing the Super League over the chance to play for their country in the World Cup.

[7om]

I think it’s possibility #2.

If we’ve learned anything over the last twenty years it’s that the owners don’t give a single fuck about the average fan sitting in the stands. Look at the relentless abuse the Glazers or Stan Kroenke get. Water off a ducks back. You had the mong who bought Hull City a few years back and immediately wanted to rename the club to Hull City Tigers. Or the Cardiff owner who tried to change the club colours to red.

These may be small examples but it speaks to a wider problem that the people in the ivory towers are completely detached from the fan in the local community.

[-james-]

They don't care. They're banking on in 10-20 years nobody caring about your grandpa champions league shite, and the next generation of fan just wanting to see FIFA ultimate teams face off against each other.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Have FIFA spoken about it?

Yes but not in terms as strong as UEFA. They are probably biding their time and seeing what happens, as Gianni wants his deeply corrupt fingers in the right pies so if the Super League looks like a winner he'll probably pair up with it and shaft UEFA. However, I don't think it will look like a winner.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think it’s possibility #2.

If we’ve learned anything over the last twenty years it’s that the owners don’t give a single fuck about the average fan sitting in the stands. Look at the relentless abuse the Glazers or Stan Kroenke get. Water off a ducks back. You had the mong who bought Hull City a few years back and immediately wanted to rename the club to Hull City Tigers. Or the Cardiff owner who tried to change the club colours to red.

These may be small examples but it speaks to a wider problem that the people in the ivory towers are completely detached from the fan in the local community.

I know but there is not caring about plebs in the stands, and there is causing yourself a massive long term negative image problem by being devious and brazen about your own greed.

Roman Abramovich spends half his Chelsea time doing community PR stuff because he knows the value of it. Abu Dhabi have built a whole town of community infrastructure around the stadium in Manchester. The Americans are different. Kroenke/Glazers/FSG will regret nothing, but I think the oligarch types will be feeling very awkward at the moment. They've chosen to jump, but it might well have been very hasty and ill thought through.

[7om]

I know but there is not caring about plebs in the stands, and there is causing yourself a massive long term negative image problem by being devious and brazen about your own greed.

I highly doubt they care. Like James said, they’ll have their All Star games every other week with billions of Asian eyeballs on them. They’ll be raking in the money hand over fist. They won’t give a shit about Big Dave and his mates putting up a few banners on the front gates.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I highly doubt they care. Like James said, they’ll have their All Star games every other week with billions of Asian eyeballs on them. They’ll be raking in the money hand over fist. They won’t give a shit about Big Dave and his mates putting up a few banners on the front gates.

If so then the logical conclusion will be to take the clubs out of their present locations and put them in Asia and America, at which point you have whittled away at the brands which are basically all they have and the only reason those people are watching in the first place.

[Spoonsky]

I highly doubt they care. Like James said, they’ll have their All Star games every other week with billions of Asian eyeballs on them. They’ll be raking in the money hand over fist. They won’t give a shit about Big Dave and his mates putting up a few banners on the front gates.

I think that's true and it means that the only thing that could really stop them would be actions by governments or football federations to highly disincentivize the best players and managers from going to those teams. (Or those players and managers spontaneously choosing to leave.) Banning them from the Euros would be a good start.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If you were in the rebel working party for this and wargamed the whole thing, what would you do if the establishment completely booted you out? You'd be in all sorts of trouble pretty much immediately (and it may well work out that way from the moment the trio get punted from the Champions League). Half your players will mutiny, for a start.

That makes me think they're banking on the establishment lacking bottle, which is why the establishment has to hold firm no matter what, and Ceferin knows this, as it seems does Gary Neville and basically anyone with a brain.

[Lewis]

The logic of the Superteams argument is that, for all there are fifteen founding members, only half of those are actually of any interest to the wider world, and five/ten years from now why wouldn't they want the terms tilting in their favour away from Inter and Tottenham?

[Spoonsky]

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2021/04/leeds-1-1-liverpool-reds-held-as-need-for-competition-prevails/


In the wake of Liverpool’s betrayal of their fans and the wider footballing world, a previously must-win clash at Leeds played out in a surreal atmosphere, with protests held outside Elland Road before kickoff.

There was a sense of abandon in the Reds’ play that could only stem from the knowledge that they would be involved in an elite European competition next season regardless of their league placing, and it resulted in a number of early chances.

[phonics]

The one thing I find genuinely surprising is not informing the players and getting FIFPRO onside. If you’ve got the players, the pr doesn’t matter. Tell multi millionaire athletes they’re not important and see how that goes for you.

[Waffdon]

Chelsea or Man City will drop out in the next few days and the rest will follow as Carragher said

[Waffdon]

Klopp crying over Neville having a go at Liverpool is all kinds of lol

[-james-]

GNev :')

[Lewis]

Chelsea or Man City will drop out in the next few days and the rest will follow as Carragher said

Imagine the thought going into it. First to drop out, BOTTLERS and/or opportunists; but also potential goodwill if you scupper the full project. If you're second or third out you just look like a chump, so you might as well be last out and refuse to drop it.

[Kikó]

Monday Night Football has been blockbuster tonight.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The one thing I find genuinely surprising is not informing the players and getting FIFPRO onside. If you’ve got the players, the pr doesn’t matter. Tell multi millionaire athletes they’re not important and see how that goes for you.

The whole thing gives off the smell of having been rushed through - why?

[Yevrah]

Chelsea or Man City will drop out in the next few days and the rest will follow as Carragher said

Surely one wouldn't announce this if they didn't have the balls to see it through for more than a few days.

[Yevrah]

For me, the whole thing hinges on the Premier League, if they support it, or at least don't condemn it and take action against it (I can also see the argument as to why they wouldn't), then I think it'll happen.

Not news I know, but UEFA are a complete shambles. How the hell do they not know already whether they can legally ban clubs from their competition for going down this road.

[phonics]

The whole thing gives off the smell of having been rushed through - why?

Basically the same plans were leaked in January as well so I'm not sure. Tariq Panja said there was the beginning of the bidding process for the new Sky deal and they shit the bed which wouldn't surprise me.

[Spoonsky]

Not news I know, but UEFA are a complete shambles. How the hell do they not know already whether they can legally ban clubs from their competition for going down this road.

It's funny how basically every party in this seems to be significantly less prepared and professional even than we cynics would take them to be.

[Jimmy Floyd]

From what Perez is saying, it seems to be a panic reaction to the pandemic busting them all and the TV contracts shrinking.

I bet someone got spooked by a really low quote for the next TV deal and it all spiralled out of control from there.

[Dquincy]

Perez spouting some real nonsense tonight. Creating a narrative that just isn't there.

As some have said today, my interest in football has waned over the past 5 years, but this will probably be the nail in the coffin. Even if I ignored the ESL, the affect it will have on the Premier League will be bloody awful.

[Shindig]

Their revenues don't even look that bad. Like, some are only down £50m-£100m. That's just one or two signings.

[Yevrah]

From what Perez is saying, it seems to be a panic reaction to the pandemic busting them all and the TV contracts shrinking.

I bet someone got spooked by a really low quote for the next TV deal and it all spiralled out of control from there.

As a lot of business did, he's using the pandemic as an excuse.

[7om]

Their revenues don't even look that bad. Like, some are only down £50m-£100m. That's just one or two signings.

As an example, aren’t Barcelona in the shit financially? I’d imagine losing any amount of money in their predicament would be enough for them to take a risk on this project.

[Don]

It's the Carabao cup final, Spurs are managerless, possibly without their star man and generally in the mud. City...it's the Carabao cup. I better see 90 minutes of pure protestation and stunts from all 8K participants. Fake money, streakers, bog roll, turning backs to the game, throwing hot shit at the players, the full works.

[Lewis]

You couldn't really have picked two lamer fanbases for the moment, so you'll get 'We are Super League' chants and inflatable bananas.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's a tragedy we didn't get a full Elland Road giving it to the scousers for 90 minutes last night.

[Ian]

“Gary Neville talks about ‘You’ll Never Walk Alone’, that at least should already be forbidden, to be honest,” the Liverpool boss told Sky Sports.

:D

[Spikey M]

He's such an OUTRAGE merchant. You just know he has a Twitter burner account that he uses to HOLD PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT.

Neville that is.

Klopp obviously spends his time online looking at very different content.

[Yevrah]

I wonder if Gary realises that his bosses at Sky would have been furiously contacting anyone they could to get in on the ESL action. I await the day he resigns in protest.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If his bosses at Sky are smart, they'll leave that to pirate TV and stick to the people's game. Their market, after all, is 'legacy fans'.

[Shindig]

As an example, aren’t Barcelona in the shit financially? I’d imagine losing any amount of money in their predicament would be enough for them to take a risk on this project.

1.2bn Euros in debt. How the frig anyone can operate a club like that is beyond me. It all seems to go on players, as well. Last year shows United had a £474m net debt which ... probably means something and there's no way City operate a tight ship. Broadcasting rights is like £140m.

[-james-]

1.2bn Euros in debt. How the frig anyone can operate a club like that is beyond me. It all seems to go on players, as well. Last year shows United had a £474m net debt which ... probably means something and there's no way City operate a tight ship. Broadcasting rights is like £140m.

I mean they don't give a fuck about the finances. As Neville said last night the whole operation at City is a PR routine which makes it seem likely that if anyone is to pull out, it'll be them.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I can guarantee that RA will be having night terrors about this as well, I'm actually quite surprised he went for it.

[-james-]

It's pretty impossible to say no once you know it exists and you've been invited. The ringleaders (United, Liverpool, Real?) are the real baddies.

[John Arne]

Where is the money coming from? I imagine they are hoping to secure some big TV deals with this - or maybe even just sell their own subscription package (which is what the EPL should doing already).

But who is going to buy it? Anywhere east of Thailand and the kick off times just don't work, so you are left with India basically. In the other direction, 8pm GMT is too early for US fans - they'll still be at work. So, you have European fans (who all seem to hate the idea) and the Indian fans.

JP Morgan have provided around $4bn in capital for the first season. So, let's say they sell ESL season passes for streaming at $30 a pop. That's 133million subscriptions needed to breakeven... It's not happening. Obviously, there's other revenues in tickets, additional matchday revenue etc, but is that enough.

Which reminds me... why on earth aren't the Premier League selling their own TV rights worldwide to individual subscribers. They would easily make more revenue then selling them individually. Sell a season pass for $35, and they would easily sell 100m or so a season. That would already beat the current worldwide TV deals.

[SvN]

$30 a season isn't happening. It will be closer to Sky prices and monthly, I'd imagine.

[Shindig]

JP Morgan's putting up most of it, by the looks of things.

[randomlegend]

Where is the money coming from? I imagine they are hoping to secure some big TV deals with this - or maybe even just sell their own subscription package (which is what the EPL should doing already).

But who is going to buy it? Anywhere east of Thailand and the kick off times just don't work, so you are left with India basically. In the other direction, 8pm GMT is too early for US fans - they'll still be at work. So, you have European fans (who all seem to hate the idea) and the Indian fans.

JP Morgan have provided around $4bn in capital for the first season. So, let's say they sell ESL season passes for streaming at $30 a pop. That's 133million subscriptions needed to breakeven... It's not happening. Obviously, there's other revenues in tickets, additional matchday revenue etc, but is that enough.

Which reminds me... why on earth aren't the Premier League selling their own TV rights worldwide to individual subscribers. They would easily make more revenue then selling them individually. Sell a season pass for $35, and they would easily sell 100m or so a season. That would already beat the current worldwide TV deals.

Presumably because it requires quite a bit of infrastructure and expertise to actually broadcast the games, which they don't have.

[Luke Emia]

Where is the money coming from? I imagine they are hoping to secure some big TV deals with this - or maybe even just sell their own subscription package (which is what the EPL should doing already).

But who is going to buy it? Anywhere east of Thailand and the kick off times just don't work, so you are left with India basically. In the other direction, 8pm GMT is too early for US fans - they'll still be at work. So, you have European fans (who all seem to hate the idea) and the Indian fans.

JP Morgan have provided around $4bn in capital for the first season. So, let's say they sell ESL season passes for streaming at $30 a pop. That's 133million subscriptions needed to breakeven... It's not happening. Obviously, there's other revenues in tickets, additional matchday revenue etc, but is that enough.

Which reminds me... why on earth aren't the Premier League selling their own TV rights worldwide to individual subscribers. They would easily make more revenue then selling them individually. Sell a season pass for $35, and they would easily sell 100m or so a season. That would already beat the current worldwide TV deals.

The issue with selling the rights individually is that Liverpool, United & Arsenal would far outsell everyone else and make far more money from doing it that way. Hence the collective bargaining agreement in place at the minute. This sounds very similar to when the PL was set up, the politics is very similar the bigger clubs want more money and this is the way to do it. The FA should have stood up to the big clubs in the late 80's and said no not a chance or taken far more power in the running of the league but they didn't and the bigger clubs have known ever since then they can get away with what they want.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'd be willing to bet decent coin that the ultimate financial backers for this are MBS/the Saudis.

[Don]

Are we getting a decision today on UEFA's treatment of the dirty dozen still in Europe? :drool:

[John Arne]

Presumably because it requires quite a bit of infrastructure and expertise to actually broadcast the games, which they don't have.

Oh for sure there are initial capital costs for the equipment and infrastructure - but I still think the numbers work. Perhaps the only thing against it is the bigger clubs wanting a bigger slice of the pie - and this kinda of rights package would make it very easy to see those pie sizes.

[thommo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EzaCVFSXsAA6qgv?format=jpg&name=900x900

:D

[Jimmy Floyd]

Sky’s Kaveh Solhekol reports that among the six ESL clubs, there are differing opinions, with some unhappy with how this has been handled and saying “this isn’t what we signed up for”. They were expecting a controlled media policy, is “shocked and taken aback” at the lack of a media policy, and unhappy at players, managers, and some board members being kept in the dark. Clubs involved aren’t close to pulling the plan ... “not yet”.

They're in miles over their heads here, total misjudgement and they will pay with their credibility and quite possibly some seismic reforms to prevent it happening again.

The whole scene reminds me of many American foreign policy mis-steps since 1900.

[-james-]

Doing social media for a non-involved football club this week must be the easiest job in the world.

[Bernanke]

They're in miles over their heads here, total misjudgement and they will pay with their credibility and quite possibly some seismic reforms to prevent it happening again.

The whole scene reminds me of many American foreign policy mis-steps since 1900.

It's like the ultra-rich didn't get to where they're at because of business acumen and superior instincts, but rather because of systemic issues.

But you know, it's their money and they earned their billions.

[Manc]

What's the latest? Has Turin been burned to the ground?

[Bernanke]

What's the latest? Has Turin been burned to the ground?

1384454232867233792

The non-American owners being upset at the lack of "media strategy" seems like the general story.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's going to be great when Chelsea, City and maybe Barcelona pull out and leave the others with their pants down.

[-james-]

It's going to be great when Chelsea, City and maybe Barcelona pull out and leave the others with their pants down.

Wouldn't be surprised if Florentino and Joel are on the phone desperately trying to convince them to stay in at the moment. They still hold a pretty strong position as long as clubs don't start bottling it.

All it's really going to take is UEFA going "lol did you guys fancy winning the Champions League this season?" though.

[Ian]

Fucking lol at anybody going along with this, being part of the whole thing and then shitting your pants at this stage when all that's happened is the immediate predictable reaction.

Lol even more when any teams who do pull out (whether it be these first ones supposedly worrying already or if the whole thing collapses) they try to take credit for having 'done the right thing' because they definitely will.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Wouldn't be surprised if Florentino and Joel are on the phone desperately trying to convince them to stay in at the moment. They still hold a pretty strong position as long as clubs don't start bottling it.

All it's really going to take is UEFA going "lol did you guys fancy winning the Champions League this season?" though.

The whole thing is such a PR disaster that I can't see any way that the line doesn't break pretty quickly. It's quite cute in a way, clearly they had no idea of the scale of shitshow they were unleashing. You wouldn't do it like this, as a rational organisation. You'd wait until the summer and have everything under control.

[Manc]

I'll be livid if no blood is spilled from this.

[Pepe]

I find it a bit lol that the ones of you in this thread ENRAGED about this happening all write 'I hardly watch any football these days, and now I will watch it any less.' Well, there is your answer.

[Pepe]

Also lol at everyone turning fully authoritarian once football as they know it is threatened.

EDIT: My prediction is that this will happen sooner or later (The Champions League is already this), old people, ie us, will moan about it (while still watching) and talk about how back in the day football was about PASSION and LOVE FOR THE SHIRT, while young people / the foreigners will love it.

[Don]

I'd assume it's not as straightforward for City or whoever to pull out at this point. I suspect the ESL lizards have protected themselves sufficiently with contracts also which could explain the delay in comments from the guilty parties as they and their legal team scramble around looking for a way out.

[Kikó]

Pepe with two spectacularly wrong posts in quick succession. Good work!

[Spikey M]

I find it a bit lol that the ones of you in this thread ENRAGED about this happening all write 'I hardly watch any football these days, and now I will watch it any less.' Well, there is your answer.

Who is enraged exactly?

[Pepe]

Who is enraged exactly?

There you go:


It's grubby and can fuck off. As if I needed more conformation that United's owners were only interested in one thing.

Dock them points, relegate them from the top leagues, do whatever it takes. Reform the league while you've got a chance (nationalise the top clubs if you want to get a fans model).


I think this is it really. Support the players/the franchise rather than have any affiliation with the club.

I feel as sick as I did at the Glazer takeover.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Shots fired.

[Ian]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/19/revealed-unpublished-super-league-document-justifying-breakaway

"an unpublished European Super League document in the hidden code of its new website"

Good work, lads.

[Spikey M]

"Talk of ‘technology-enhanced rule implementation’"

Well, I assume everyone is on board now?

[Don]

Pepe is wrong but is Kiko still bending over to take the full 8 inch girth of capitalism full-time whilst calling us out for our morals?

[Pepe]

What am I wrong about? About it happening sooner or later, about the CL being basically the same thing, that most of you will still watch, or that young people / foreigners will love it?

[Yevrah]

Pepe's pretty bang on here. The values of fairness and a level playing field have long since left the sport and ok, this is taking that to the extreme, but those getting seriously arsed about it are clinging onto a vision they have of the game that died years ago.

[Serj]

A New York Times article which I thought was a good read, along the lines of Pepe's argument:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/sports/soccer/super-league-real-madrid-liverpool.html



Outrage About European Super League Is Muffled by Our Cheers

A breakaway league would remake European soccer to benefit a few rich teams, but we will watch it anyway. The Liverpool owner John Henry has seen his team win the Champions League. Now it will walk away from the competition.

Published April 18, 2021Updated April 19, 2021, 11:39 a.m. ET

Real Madrid’s players pumped fists and exchanged hugs. A scoreless tie at Liverpool on Wednesday night had assured that the Spanish club had taken what it saw as its rightful place in the semifinals of the Champions League. All of a sudden, a 14th European Cup title hung tantalizingly close.

No club has quite so much of its identity bound up with the Champions League as Real Madrid. It regards the tournament as its personal fief. Its sees its pursuit of continental primacy as its central, animating force. At much the same time as Zinedine Zidane’s team was celebrating victory, though, the club’s president, Florentino Pérez, was putting the finishing touches to a plan designed, in effect, to destroy the competition forever.

Pérez spent the tail end of last week making calls and lobbying support and quieting nerves among some of European soccer’s most powerful executives for a plan years in the making.

On Sunday, the fruits of that labor were revealed: A dozen leading clubs — Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester City, Chelsea and Tottenham from the Premier League; Juventus, Inter Milan and A.C. Milan of Italy; and Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atlético from Spain — had agreed to become founding members of a breakaway superleague.

Pérez and his allies must have known what the reaction would be: a great torrent of caustic condemnations, each one flecked with scarcely concealed rage. UEFA released a statement, also signed by the Premier League, Spain’s La Liga and Italy’s Serie A, threatening the conspirators with expulsion if they continued down this dark and murky path. The Bundesliga of Germany lent its support, even though its teams had refused to sign up to the proposals. The French league did the same.

Executives from those teams that would be cut adrift spoke gravely of the need to protect soccer’s pyramid. Fan groups rejected any rupture en masse and outright. So, too, did various national associations. Gary Neville, the former Manchester United player who has become a staple of British television broadcasts, had his say.

Almost as important, Britain’s prime minister, Boris Johnson, gravely intoned that the clubs involved would have to answer to their fans. The French president, Emmanuel Macron, released a statement decrying the idea. None of his country’s teams had agreed to take part. Only Paris St.-Germain had been asked. It said no. For now.

That none of these parties can be considered truly dispassionate goes without saying. Of course UEFA does not want the Champions League to be usurped. Of course the major domestic leagues cannot countenance the idea of seeing their competitions diminished. Of course executives at those clubs who would be excluded do not want to see the gravy train they are currently riding overtaken by an express.

They are all compromised in one way or another, but that does not render their outrage unjustified. They might be no less avaricious or cynical in their thinking than the rebel clubs. Their calls to arms over the sanctity of soccer’s pyramid might ring deafeningly hollow. But the problem with the plan is not that it accentuates money; it is that it eliminates risk.

For the dozen founding members, the appeal of a Super League is that it is predictable. There would no longer be any need to worry about qualifying for the Champions League — it is possible that at least four of the signatories will miss out on next season’s edition simply through not being good enough in their domestic leagues — in order to have access to soccer’s most lucrative prize pot. The income would, instead, be guaranteed.

The problem with that, of course, is that unpredictability — what is rather grandly known in the sport’s argot as competitive balance — is at least part of the secret of soccer’s appeal. In March, F.C. Porto knocked Juventus out of the Champions League in the round of 16. Its elimination came in the same week that the Juventus president, Andrea Agnelli, had ill advisedly gone public with his latest harebrained schemes for improving the sport he purports to love.

From a business perspective, his club’s exit was bad. Juventus is the champion of Italy. It is one of the most popular teams in the world. It has far more box office appeal than Porto; the longer it stays in the Champions League, the better not only for Juventus itself, but to some extent for the competition as a whole. From a sporting perspective, though, its demise was compelling, spellbinding drama, and at the center of the plot was jeopardy: Something was riding on this. Remove the stakes, and it is highly likely that the product will suffer.

To American sensibilities, of course, none of this is alien. The major professional leagues of North America all function as closed shops, unencumbered by the specter of promotion and relegation, and they are doing quite nicely, thank you. Their example has percolated into the thinking of not only those European clubs whose owners have interests in the N.F.L. or Major League Baseball, but of those who look on enviously both at the broadcast deals they can command and the cost control measures at their disposal.

Here too, though, there is a misunderstanding. Soccer is, as the historian David Goldblatt has written, a global cultural phenomenon of almost unparalleled scale. Cristiano Ronaldo is by some distance more famous now than the Beatles were even in their heyday. To the major clubs, this is a point in their favor; they are the teams, after all, that people across the planet pay to watch. Why should they spread the wealth they generate to everyone else?

The riposte is quite simple: They have not built their popularity alone. What soccer has become is testament to the richness of its heritage, to the stories told not by a handful of clubs but by hundreds of them.

By seeking to sever the link between the elite and the masses, the dozen rebel clubs are effectively trying to reap for themselves rewards that are due the collective at what is, effectively, an arbitrary point in history. Had this plan been stifled for another five years, would Tottenham still have been invited to join, or might its place have been taken by Leicester City? In a decade, might A.C. Milan have been replaced by Napoli?

In another light, there is nothing arbitrary at all about this moment. It is possible, of course, that all of this will come to nothing, that letters of intent will prove rather easier than actually conjuring a superleague into being. A gantlet of obstacles awaits, both from soccer’s authorities and from those that lie above them, in the form of national governments and the European Union.

But even if this plan stumbles, the concept will be back, sooner rather than later, in some vaguely modified form. A superleague is, in effect, inevitable; European soccer has been drifting, inexorably, to this point for years.

And it is here that those who hope to benefit from shutting the door, from fixing the rules of engagement, cannot take all of the blame. Many of those who spent Sunday spitting fury at the greed of the conspirators have been complicit, over the last 30 years or so, in making this — or something very much like it — the only conclusion possible.


That is true of the Premier League, which waved in money from anyone and everyone who could afford to buy a club, which took great pride in its “ownership neutral” approach, which never stopped to ask whether any of it was good for the game. It is true of the Spanish authorities, who made it clear that the rules did not really apply to Real Madrid or Barcelona.

It is true, perhaps most of all, of UEFA, which has grown fat and rich on the proceeds of the Champions League, from bowing to the demands of its most powerful constituent clubs, giving more and more power away just to keep the show on the road. It is true, even, of the rest of us in soccer’s thrall — the news media and the commentariat and the fans — who celebrated the multimillion-dollar transfers and the massive television deals and the conspicuous consumption of money and did not stop to ask where it would all go.

It is no surprise, really, that the rebels believe that their plan might work, that there is no such thing as a red line, that whatever they do, we will all keep watching and the ball will keep rolling. It is no surprise that they think they can do whatever they like. That is what they have done for years, after all, and nobody has stopped them yet.

[Spikey M]

The Village we're moving to has a Football Team with a 250 seater stadium in the Isthmian North Division. £200 for a family season ticket. I'm tempted.

[Raoul Duke]

Bayern have come out and told them to eat shit. Not very often The Empire is the good guy

[Don]

Yes the current set-up has flaws and is not a completely level playing field but the changes that escalate this further go beyond the limits that today's fans will accept.

It's obviously inevitable as time goes but they've shot their load too early by a good decade or two. They need to slowly adapt the game and condition fans to accept it. This is well on the way with increased technology use like VAR, unneccesary changes to the rules like handball and general behavioural patterns of people consumed by social media and the virtual world.

But if they think the residents of the cities would allow this shit in 2021, they're having a lol. As I keep saying, these stadiums will be burned to the ground before any ESL fixture is played. The legacy lot are too powerful still, let them age and wither a bit more and be made irrelevant by the new generation who are too busy mining cryptocoins/minecraft resources to care about real world goings on.

[Yevrah]

Yes the current set-up has flaws and is not a completely level playing field but the changes that escalate this further go beyond the limits that today's fans will accept.

There seems to be a sense of entitlement that it's the fans' game. It isn't, it hasn't been for a long time and we've all contributed towards that with our Sky subscriptions, paying £60 for what amounts to a T-shirt etc.

"Today's fans" might not accept it, but they're irrelevant. Like a jilted lover who spends their time hitting the bottle while their ex isn't giving them a second thought, it's an utterly futile mindset to be in.



The legacy lot are too powerful still

They're just not. They like to think they are as it harks back to that entitled view of it being 'their game', but in reality they are utterly irrelevant and there is nothing they nor the government can do to stop this if the clubs involved stick to their guns.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Pepe's pretty bang on here. The values of fairness and a level playing field have long since left the sport and ok, this is taking that to the extreme, but those getting seriously arsed about it are clinging onto a vision they have of the game that died years ago.

It's not an all or nothing situation. No one involved is morally pure and nor would they ever be. Status quo is creeping ultra-capitalism but ultimately everything still decided by sporting contests. Super league proposal consigns the importance of sporting contests to the dustbin of history. You don't have to be Che Guevara to oppose that move.

[phonics]

People like Yev who go 'What are you so mad about, football was already money oriented' is as fucking dumb as the people who think 'but you own an iPhone' is a good argument.

Just absolute guff.

[Lewis]

Pepe is wrong but is Kiko still bending over to take the full 8 inch girth of capitalism full-time whilst calling us out for our morals?

Not to mention his gay little 'Forum Super League' on WhatsApp.

[Yevrah]

People like Yev who go 'What are you so mad about, football was already money oriented' is as fucking dumb as the people who think 'but you own an iPhone' is a good argument.

Just absolute guff.

I understand why people are mad, I'm just saying it's utterly pointless to be. The game is not what it was and nor will it probably be in our lifetimes and anyone who thinks they're going to change that by hanging a banner from a plane or standing outside a stadium is deluded beyond belief. The clubs have all of the power. Every last bit of it.

[Yevrah]

It's not an all or nothing situation. No one involved is morally pure and nor would they ever be. Status quo is creeping ultra-capitalism but ultimately everything still decided by sporting contests. Super league proposal consigns the importance of sporting contests to the dustbin of history. You don't have to be Che Guevara to oppose that move.

It's the hypocrisy I struggle with. Red Nev is there at the barracades claiming he supports a free market, when what he actually means is he only supports it as long as it doesn't do something he disagrees with.

And I genuinely don't see how this is much worse than the shower of shit UEFA had implemented for 2024 onwards or what they've already done to the Euros.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's the hypocrisy I struggle with. Red Nev is there at the barracades claiming he supports a free market, when what he actually means is he only supports it as long as it doesn't do something he disagrees with.

And I genuinely don't see how this is much worse than the shower of shit UEFA had implemented for 2024 onwards or what they've already done to the Euros.

So what? Everyone acts in their own interests. If it takes a coalition of diverse hypocrites to take down the most damaging possible outcome for the sport, then so be it.

[Kikó]

Having an enforced closed shop at the top of the game which nullifies competition is a massive change to the current status quo. Yeah it's currently unfair (top 4 guaranteed from each major league for example) and it's a long way from the 70s but we still have a semi competitive football environment across Europe. This is a clear move to superbowling it and destroying football heritage across the UK and Europe. If you don't get annoyed by this then when will you? Reinvent the game with the momentum and bring the fans back into club ownership.

[phonics]

Yev was the guy in 1902 saying 'The Games Gone'

[Yevrah]

Reinvent the game with the momentum and bring the fans back into club ownership.

How do you actually do that though?

[Lewis]

Have fans ever had any serious club ownership here?

[Kikó]

There are a number of clubs with fan ownership.

[Kikó]

How do you actually do that though?

Government.

[Ian]

Hasn't the horse bolted in the case of most English clubs? Surely you can't just tell a club owner "Oh by the way you only own 49% of this now"? Because presumably if you're wanting fan ownership there's not that much point unless you're going full German model?

[Spoonsky]

It's the hypocrisy I struggle with. Red Nev is there at the barracades claiming he supports a free market, when what he actually means is he only supports it as long as it doesn't do something he disagrees with.

And I genuinely don't see how this is much worse than the shower of shit UEFA had implemented for 2024 onwards or what they've already done to the Euros.

There's no way you can't see the difference between the Champions League (as unequal as it is, and will be even more so from 2024) and this.

Have PSG made a statement? Bizarre to see them and Bayern emerge as the good guys in this.

[Yevrah]

There's no way you can't see the difference between the Champions League (as unequal as it is, and will be even more so from 2024) and this.

I can see the difference hence why I said it isn't much worse. UEFA might come out moralising about greed and being screwed (oh the lols), but their Swiss abomination had qualification protection based on historic performance and was a truly dreadful format. They're only annoyed someone's beaten them to it.

[Yevrah]

Hasn't the horse bolted in the case of most English clubs? Surely you can't just tell a club owner "Oh by the way you only own 49% of this now"? Because presumably if you're wanting fan ownership there's not that much point unless you're going full German model?

We could dig up Corbyn and get him to do the honours I guess.

[Kikó]

Hasn't the horse bolted in the case of most English clubs? Surely you can't just tell a club owner "Oh by the way you only own 49% of this now"? Because presumably if you're wanting fan ownership there's not that much point unless you're going full German model?

They're small enterprises - the government could afford to nationalise them/impose a model of fan majority ownership.

[Lewis]

There could be downsides to setting business/foreign investment confidence back fifty years though.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They won't nationalise football clubs, but they might do a bunch of things that prevents any hope of any future Super League breakaway.

[Don]

The UEFA CL revamp is dogshit but it's not in the same stratosphere.

Qualification for the UEFA Champions League will continue to be open and earned through a team’s performance in domestic competitions.

One of the additional places will go to the club ranked third in the championship of the association in fifth position in the UEFA national association ranking. Another will be awarded to a domestic champion by extending from four to five the number of clubs qualifying via the so-called “Champions Path”.

The final two places will go to the clubs with the highest club coefficient over the last five years that have not qualified for the Champions League group stage but have qualified either for the Champions League qualification phase, the Europa League or the Europa Conference League.

[Kikó]

There could be downsides to setting business/foreign investment confidence back fifty years though.

:***( how will we cope without leveraged buyouts of our sporting institutions.

[Lewis]

I bet it would be amazing being the first team to win it after only getting in on a coefficient place.

[Manc]

Yev siding with a lad who's probably never seen the sport. Have a day off.

[Yevrah]

The UEFA CL revamp is dogshit but it's not in the same stratosphere.

Qualification for the UEFA Champions League will continue to be open and earned through a team’s performance in domestic competitions.

One of the additional places will go to the club ranked third in the championship of the association in fifth position in the UEFA national association ranking. Another will be awarded to a domestic champion by extending from four to five the number of clubs qualifying via the so-called “Champions Path”.

The final two places will go to the clubs with the highest club coefficient over the last five years that have not qualified for the Champions League group stage but have qualified either for the Champions League qualification phase, the Europa League or the Europa Conference League.

Reading that has hut my head. What the bollocks is this shit?


the club ranked third in the championship of the association in fifth position in the UEFA national association ranking

Qualifying for the damn thing makes about as much sense as the group stage league table will come December 24.

[Yevrah]

Just as a reminder:


Taking the total number of teams from 32 to 36 in the UEFA Champions League, the biggest change will see a transformation from the traditional group stage to a single league stage including all participating teams. Every club will now be guaranteed a minimum of 10 league stage games against 10 different opponents (five home games, five away) rather than the previous six matches against three teams, played on a home and away basis.

The top eight sides in the league will qualify automatically for the knockout stage, while the teams finishing in ninth to 24th place will compete in a two-legged play-off to secure their path to the last 16 of the competition.

I genuinely don't think I could have come up with anything worse if I'd tried. The amount of dead rubbers and generally shit games is going to be obscene.

[Lewis]

Which is what this is a reaction to. More games, but not necessarily more money for the clubs who consider them a ballache. I think the eventual climbdown will see those proposals canned.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If there's a climbdown now, it won't be on terms beneficial to the rebels. They've shot their load. Which is why I don't think there will be a climbdown per se, but the grind of hatred towards them will eventually wear down the less evangelical clubs and leave the others high and dry.

[Lewis]

1384486428638203907

I've just spent a grand on United merchandise to cancel him out.

[Spikey M]

Imagine filming that, watching it back and thinking "yep... let's go".

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I bet he'll be down there at the Emirates to see them get twatted by Barcelona.

[Kikó]

Just as a reminder:



I genuinely don't think I could have come up with anything worse if I'd tried. The amount of dead rubbers and generally shit games is going to be obscene.

You know all those ESL clubs will have been involved in the discussions and bringing this live/signing it off. It's not like it happened in a bubble.

[Pepe]

Not to mention his gay little 'Forum Super League' on WhatsApp.

:D