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Magic
13-10-2015, 09:20 PM
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=a5c_1444740915

Dutch NTSB findings. Interesting 20 minutes if you've got it spare.

bruhnaldo
13-10-2015, 09:29 PM
If you don't have 20 minutes to spare...

"It was shot down by a missile in Eastern Ukraine that was made in Russia per the shrapnel found in the bodies of the deceased"

Yevrah
13-10-2015, 09:33 PM
Well I for one am staggered it was a Russian missile.

Disco
13-10-2015, 09:34 PM
That reconstruction thing is great.

And at the risk of starting something tedious those missile systems are used by both sides (which is nice work if you can get it) so that's not as conclusive as it could be.

niko_cee
13-10-2015, 10:33 PM
I didn't really get the whole story, but isn't the Russian defence on this that the newer versions of this missile wouldn't have been able to shoot this plane down, whereas the older ones that the rebels might have had would? What kind of technological advancement is that?

Jimmy Floyd
13-10-2015, 10:37 PM
If Shevchenko and Rebrov had shot it down (I assume they run everything in Ukraine), I'm pretty sure the West would blame Putin anyway, and if they were that confident it was the Ruskies, why is there not some sort of JUSTICE campaign aimed at Mad Vlad?

ItalAussie
13-10-2015, 11:49 PM
If Shevchenko and Rebrov had shot it down (I assume they run everything in Ukraine), I'm pretty sure the West would blame Putin anyway, and if they were that confident it was the Ruskies, why is there not some sort of JUSTICE campaign aimed at Mad Vlad?

Because everyone knows there's nothing anyone can do about it. I don't think anyone doubts that the Russians were supplying the rebels, and even Russia are basically denying it with a massive smirk. But what's anyone going to do? Go to war with Russia? Not going to happen.

Also, people have goldfish memories and the news cycle has moved on. It's harsh, but it's true.

Magic
14-10-2015, 06:15 AM
The Russians stopped using those S2A missiles in 2011.

Mazuuurk
14-10-2015, 07:24 AM
Well, I mean, these are rebels not directly under Russian Governmental command anyway, right? Indirectly, perhaps, it's possible yeah, but still. I mean all the military superpowers seem to find their pet rebellious organisations here and there to supply with weapons (until they become too powerful and the military superpowers need to supply the other rebels with guns).

The US are experts at this, are they not?

Niobium Knight
14-10-2015, 08:40 AM
Why do the Russian government get a kick out of winding up other countries?

Benny
14-10-2015, 09:02 AM
Shows how the missile would have damaged the plane, pretty horrific to know that the back (and partly middle) section would have had a moment where the plane was in two and they were conscious at that moment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DmraSOdTYk

phonics
14-10-2015, 09:51 AM
Well, I mean, these are rebels not directly under Russian Governmental command anyway, right? Indirectly, perhaps, it's possible yeah, but still. I mean all the military superpowers seem to find their pet rebellious organisations here and there to supply with weapons (until they become too powerful and the military superpowers need to supply the other rebels with guns).

The US are experts at this, are they not?

Nah they'll be under Russian control completely. At the end of the day most of these 'Rebels' are Russian Military out of uniform anyway. They just fucked up.

Jimmy Floyd
14-10-2015, 11:02 AM
Why do the Russian government get a kick out of winding up other countries?

They're a declining power whose only remaining clout is material, so they're needing to wave it in people's faces as the ship slowly sinks.

ItalAussie
14-10-2015, 11:08 AM
They're a declining power whose only remaining clout is material, so they're needing to wave it in people's faces as the ship slowly sinks.

There's also the fact that the country is hugely nationalistic. In that environment nothing fuels support better than galvanizing against external opposition. "Support Putin & Russia as they stand up to the world" sort of thing.

Lewis
14-10-2015, 11:43 AM
I read yesterday that tanking oil prices have finally forced Russia into thinking about developing an actual economy, rather than being dependent on fossil fuels forever, so they might just get themselves out of their decline (they won't because they have a biologically-determined commitment to corruption).

Magic
14-10-2015, 11:49 AM
There's also the fact that the country is hugely nationalistic. In that environment nothing fuels support better than galvanizing against external opposition. "Support Putin & Russia as they stand up to the world" sort of thing.

A lot of Russians hate this and wish they'd concentrate on domestic matters. They're poor as fuck.

ItalAussie
14-10-2015, 12:40 PM
A lot of Russians hate this and wish they'd concentrate on domestic matters. They're poor as fuck.It'd be interesting to see it all fall down on Putin.

Magic
14-10-2015, 01:15 PM
It'd be interesting to see it all fall down on Putin.

It would, however criminalisation and intimidation of opponents and rigged elections probably won't let us see it happen.