Patriotism

[Manc]

Do you consider yourself patriotic? Possibly an interesting topic given current circumstances. #moarfreds

London 2012 was peak imo, closely followed by 1917 and Farage in European parliament. Captain Tom doesn't even warrant a semi.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yes, but for small things, not institutions. I'll tub thump for bacon and eggs and dry humour, but not for the army or indeed the NHS.

[Spikey M]

Sport aside, not particularly. I'd leave tomorrow givenbthebchance.

[Ian]

I sometimes feel more pro-English as a gut response to Scottish people moaning about the English but broadly speaking no, not really.

Geographical coincidence doesn't give me much of a hard-on.

And overtly patriotic English / British people tend to make me cringe.

EDIT: Because those are the people I am liable to be associated with / compared to, not because our brand of patriotism is worse than anybody elses.

[Giggles]

Very. Not really sure why.

[Don]

Yeah we're one of the best at football and have a rich cultural history. Nigga that shit isn't gonna pay my bills or suck my dick so no, I don't actually care outside trolling.

[igor_balis]

London 2012 was probably the least patriotic I've ever felt, I know it's partly on me for being a cynical cunt but I fucking hate athletics anyway, and everything about it from the union jack waving to the obsessive medal counting and sebastian Coe (I HATE sebastian coe) filled me with revulsion. Oh Igor, you watching the rowing final? tarquin fetheringham-debussy has a real chance of a silver! Mate I hope he drowns.


Yet during England test matches I get horny at mostly posh cunts dispatching our old colonies to all ends of the ground so I'll admit I lack consistency.

[igor_balis]

Most patriotic I get is England at major football tournaments, and I think another key distinction (aside from football being good and all athletics being shit) is that, rightly or wrongly, I never feel there's as many annoying lay people ruining it.

Despite football being massive, aside from the odd greb at the pub doing their excellent and not annoying moss from it crowd "ooh did the football man do a kick', not-liking-football-as-personality-trait routine, we're largely left to it, whereas even people like my nan will wanna talk to me about how well we're doing it the fucking javelin or some shit. Sorry nan, can you tell me the story about accidentally getting two egg coupons in that rationing book in 1944 again instead.

[Shindig]

Not especially but I'm not a big fan of shitting on your own doorstep either. I'm down for some flag-waving when it comes to sport but little else.

[Raoul Duke]

Moving to Amsterdam in a month or so and not sure if I'll come back.

There's things I love about England (tea, innate cynicism, deadpan humour, pubs) but there's lots that gets on my nerves (Tories/Farage/Brexit, tabloids, general rejection of intelligence over crude slogans/jingoism).

[Mike]

Nope. Not at all.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm not that patriotic about sport, weirdly. Most of our national teams annoy me. I will rally for us against certain hated foes, though, like Welsh rugby or Australian/Indian cricket.

I got more into us winning the cricket World Cup last year after it happened, and Australia/India began a trail of tears that continues to this day, than I was while the World Cup was actually on.

[Baz]

Nope. Not at all.

Same.

[igor_balis]

I'm not that patriotic about sport, weirdly. Most of our national teams annoy me. I will rally for us against certain hated foes, though, like Welsh rugby or Australian/Indian cricket.

I got more into us winning the cricket World Cup last year after it happened, and Australia/India began a trail of tears that continues to this day, than I was while the World Cup was actually on.

Fuck, reading this makes me realise I'm kinda the same deep down with cricket. Love beating aus and india, but if I'm truly honest with myself, I secretly end up rooting (pun intended? Maybe) for the underdogs, especially at places like lords, and especially teams like Sri Lanka and the deshis.

[igor_balis]

Ireland bowling us out for about 90 at lords was one of my 2019 sporting highlights.

[Jimmy Floyd]

When we lost to the Netherlands at the T20 World Cup (the second time, rather than the first mad one at Lord's), I was fucking loving it. I also love it when we get beat in the Caribbean or away to Pakistan. India can go fuck themselves though.

I also fucking HATE the barmy army which doesn't help matters.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

I think more than I'd like to admit.

When it comes to sport I loathe the national football side but I'm well behind the athletics sportspeople and then it's mixed between other sports.

In other forms of entertainment I think Britain kills it (mainly humour) and I am a big fan of the NHS. I also can't see myself ever wanting to move away from England too.

[igor_balis]

I also fucking HATE the barmy army which doesn't help matters.

Same. When I saw the last ashes test at edgbaston me and my mate ended up sat next to about 30 middle aged aussies, in the stand next to the hollies. After the painful, slow "people always ask us...who we are ...where we come from", the bloke directly next to me stood up and shouted "no they fakin dont ya boring CANTS", and I couldnt stop laughing for about 10 minutes. Noticed a few people sat near me clearly annoyed with themselves for also finding it funny .

[Disco]

I like to see British sporting bods do well but I think that's more to do with proximity/familiarity than any great patriotic fervour. You certainly wouldn't find me waving a flag and I couldn't for the life of me tell you why people turn out in their droves to look at the Queen. I think I might even lump people who claim to be patriots in with football tattoos and casual racism/sexism as those I'd just rather not be associated with.

[Lewis]

When it comes to sport I loathe the national football side but I'm well behind the athletics sportspeople and then it's mixed between other sports.

Your national team complex is the nonciest thing anyone on this board does.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Your national team complex is the nonciest thing anyone on this board does.

It's more the media and the national band that piss me off these days rather than the actual team.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Same. When I saw the last ashes test at edgbaston me and my mate ended up sat next to about 30 middle aged aussies, in the stand next to the hollies. After the painful, slow "people always ask us...who we are ...where we come from", the bloke directly next to me stood up and shouted "no they fakin dont ya boring CANTS", and I couldnt stop laughing for about 10 minutes. Noticed a few people sat near me clearly annoyed with themselves for also finding it funny .

I say this as someone who has stood in their offices (the fact that they have offices is a fucking giveaway to begin with), but it's just all wrong and far too earnest. England cricket is not something to be supported like that, trying to make it about you. They basically trail around the world, lording it over mostly poorer countries that we once colonised, and expecting them to love our cringeworthy banter.

To support English cricket properly you have to be a moaning, cynical fuck who basically hates them. The team doesn't exist to be loved. Every time that Billy the trumpeter (I've met him as well, fml) comes on those Sky retrospective things wide-eyed saying 'Oh, mate, the Aussies, they were hating it, and then Freddie and Stokesy did this, and then Jimmy bowled him out' I just think for goodness sake, you're getting cricket wrong.

[igor_balis]

Your national team complex is the nonciest thing anyone on this board does.

Yeah man, this should sort you out mahow.


https://youtu.be/fHcwa33I8UY

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Cheers Igor, I've just ordered a full kit.

Can't wait until next Summer now.

[Luca]

Moving to Amsterdam in a month or so and not sure if I'll come back.

There's things I love about England (tea, innate cynicism, deadpan humour, pubs) but there's lots that gets on my nerves (Tories/Farage/Brexit, tabloids, general rejection of intelligence over crude slogans/jingoism).

Innate cynicism is something I value deeply, and yet it is so at-odds with how things are here. I'm constantly painted as the cynic.

[Queenslander]

Not at all it is for mongs.

[mugbull]

“Innate cynicism”, lol. If you want to see actual cynicism, come to Eastern Europe. You brits are just playing at being cynical, like a quirky personality trait

[Ian]

I suppose if you're going to willy-wave over whose cynicism is better this is the thread for it.

[mugbull]

Cynicism is stupid

[Spikey M]

Well that's a bit cynical.

[niko_cee]

I've always thought the eastern bloc folk to be more fatalistic than cynical.

[mugbull]

Fatalism is cynicism that’s not a put-on

[Ian]

And has a different definition.

[mugbull]

I’d hope so, they’re 2 different words

[Ian]

Good, then I'm glad we've agreed that one is not 'the other, but-'

[igor_balis]

Wilfully misunderstanding Czech people is just bullying without class.

[Ian]

:D

[Lee]

Yes, but for small things, not institutions. I'll tub thump for bacon and eggs and dry humour, but not for the army or indeed the NHS.

This sums up my attitude. I like our culture and think we are too quick to dismiss it or, worse, refuse to accept that we even have one. The older I get the less tolerant I become of cunts doing anything English down (I am thinking in terms of England here - obviously there are strong similarities with other Brits but also important distinctions). The patronising bollocks did my head in throughout all the Brexit stuff, and I’m pretty firmly pro-European both politically and in terms of my worldview of our place (and importance) in wider European culture and history.

Anything English being seen as unsophisticated and backward in comparison to almost anybody else. Fuck off, you condescending twats. Lots of shit about how awful the Tories are (which I agree with generally) compared to European governments, half of which are also their own equivalent of Tories and even worse in the case of the likes of Poland and Hungary. But, of course, ours being from here are automatically more awful.

I think I remember Jo Swinson (lol) at some point during the election campaign making a shit point on Twitter about Europeaness by eating a croissant for breakfast. The fucking weirdo. As if a full English/Scottish/whatever isn’t just as European, thus undermining her whole point. The thick bitch.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why the British metro left hates Britain is a bookworthy topic. I don't have the answer. I hardly think the French metro left hates France, and I'm certain that the east and west coast liberal lefts don't hate America.

[igor_balis]

Why the British metro left hates Britain is a bookworthy topic. I don't have the answer. I hardly think the French metro left hates France, and I'm certain that the east and west coast liberal lefts don't hate America.

because "Britishness" has been co-opted by twats far more decisively here than the equiv in other countries i think

[Lee]

because "Britishness" has been co-opted by twats far more decisively here than the equiv in other countries i think

All countries have nationalist wankers. I doubt we’re any worse for it. We don’t have to let them own the flag.

[Boydy]

Tbf I doubt people who hate the Tories are praising fucking Orban.

[Lee]

No but they would fawn over the likes of Merkel and Rutte who are as Tory as it gets and were quite happy fucking over the Greeks, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese and Irish in favour of the major German and French banks during the Euro crisis. For no other reason other than that they were on the opposite team to the British, it seems.

I’m no ‘let’s whitewash British history’ merchant. We’ve done plenty of shitty things. But it oughtn’t deter people from having a bit of pride in the culture which forms them and to which they contribute. It’s a reflex you see particularly in response to foreign policy events/crises of all sorts. Yer man Corbyn being a prime example in his response to things like the Russians poisoning UK residents and the Americans taking out evil shits like Soleimani.

The fucking hypocrisy of it.

[Lewis]

'Britishness' is pretend gin o'clock, Olympic opening ceremony, New Labour wank. It's England and 'Englishness' that the wankers despise.

[Lee]

Yes. Completely agree.

[Lewis]

This is why the whole 'British Values' thing is stupid. British values are the values of the British state, because they can't be anything else, which is why people who attempt to define them inevitably do so with contemporary fuzzy political balls like 'fair play' and 'tolerance' or state stuff like democracy and the rule of law. It works as a legalese catch-all for telling Muslims to get with the programme, but the idea that the rest of us are bound by our shared reluctance to cheat in a quiz get lost Gordon Brown I'll cheat to win like Robert Clive.

Why the whammerati dislike England is a good one. I suppose the individual nationalities are based primarily on ethnicity, making them exclusionary by definition, and Englishness, by virtue of England being the dominant country in the United Kingdom, is a) not as amenable to being hijacked by 'civic nationalists' who can pretend that these words mean things that they don't ('Blue Labour' lol); and b) is therefore the biggest block on the Great British Yoghurt Knit Off. Alternatively, it's just pseudo-intellectualism writ large, like when people rave about crap 'cinema', or pretend that they used to watch Serie A. The enjoyment is not to much in the product itself (and it is a product to these people) as the perceived exclusivity (https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/man-voting-to-stay-in-eu-because-he-thinks-hes-sophisticated-20160422108212) of it. Maybe both. Englishness prevents Britishness being the equal of their idealised Europeanism.

[The Merse]

Barely. I enjoy nationalist satire, and sports-wise, sure - there's plenty. But really, patriotism is something quite alien to me. There's probably a lot to that - firstly simply that I've never really felt at home, until very recently, anywhere I lived. I was raised most of my childhood 300 miles and a border from where the family considered home and didn't fell at all at home in the midlands, combined with having moved through Scotland, England, Wales, back to Scotland and then back to England.

Now, I actually do feel at home in Islington, but I still care nothing for English patriotism and also little for the Scots patriotism of my family which they pushed me to adopt. I never really liked British patriotism, as so much of that is wrapped up in Irish loyalist stuff (I'm a republican sympathiser in that sense) and the royals (I'm very much a republican in that sense). Then there's that I've almost zero time for the vast majority of 'tradition' - it's largely boring and shite - what little I might enjoy would again be in sports, I guess. As for British history - it fascinates me, but it also tells me, quite plainly that there is little to take in pride in for a commoner such as myself - the Empire was built out of the subjugation of my sorts, and there'd no doubt have been plenty of suffering at their hands too given a swathe of the family were Irish immigrants recently as the turn of the 19/20th century, with a couple of storied IRA members around that time in the family. Now, that's no different to if I'd been born in a very many other countries - pretty much any in the western world, I should think - but it remains relevant to me given that so much of the patriotism in this country harks back to the historical significance of the Empire. That and British exceptionalism, the damn myth.

Then, more recent feelings regarding English and Britishness are certainly the opposite of patriotic... I've never felt so detached from most of the rest of the nation as the last 6 years living in Bristol and London. It's quite clear, that save for Scotland, the rest of the UK is very differently (in significance, obvs) aligned in their political leanings and social values. That means quite a lot to me. It provokes a sense of anger and injustice at it's worst, and a feeling of disconnection at best.

TLDR; No, I'm emphatically not, but I enjoy it in sports.

[The Merse]

All countries have nationalist wankers. I doubt we’re any worse for it. We don’t have to let them own the flag.

I agree. But, there is something about what we do with the flag and national identity - particularly the English. It's always about the past, and so rarely about the present. It's 1066, the Empire and the World Wars, it's the old darlings that are backbone of Britain. In Wales and Scotland, that's less prevalent - their identities are more forged in shared social values and experience, and more timeless - particularly so in Wales. I saw this the other day, and couldn't help but feel it well articulated one aspect I've long felt very uncomfortable with - 1159065815930589185

[Giggles]

That was a good interview. I remember listening to the podcast at the time.

[hfswjyr]

No sense of patriotism at all growing up. Only in the past few years since spending some time living overseas have I become a bit more patriotic and interested in our national identity/history. I would be lying if I didn't feel a sense of pride whenever NZ gets mentioned in international media, as it's generally for nice reasons whether it be for sports, some over-achievement (our favourite phrase seems to be "punching above our weight") , or progressive/pragmatic policy. The Christchurch mass shooting is the obvious outlier, but even then I was very proud of our country's response to it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The reason we have a 'strange obsession' with WW2 is that we had a unique experience in it - bombed, starved, battered, but never conquered, and ultimately (on the back of USA/USSR) victorious - which conditioned that entire generation (and, more potently, their kids) to believe in a form of exceptionalism.

In fact, the obsession is not strange in the slightest.

The rest of western Europe were either Nazis, or were conquered/occupied by Nazis, which is a different national experience altogether and I imagine provoked a lot more humility and also shame.

[Giggles]

Plus it’s one of the only times in history where in general you’re not the “bad guys”.

[Shindig]

Russia hangs on to Soviet iconography and sensibilities just as much. Hell, America loves God and the flag.

[Kikó]

I say this as someone who has stood in their offices (the fact that they have offices is a fucking giveaway to begin with), but it's just all wrong and far too earnest. England cricket is not something to be supported like that, trying to make it about you. They basically trail around the world, lording it over mostly poorer countries that we once colonised, and expecting them to love our cringeworthy banter.

To support English cricket properly you have to be a moaning, cynical fuck who basically hates them. The team doesn't exist to be loved. Every time that Billy the trumpeter (I've met him as well, fml) comes on those Sky retrospective things wide-eyed saying 'Oh, mate, the Aussies, they were hating it, and then Freddie and Stokesy did this, and then Jimmy bowled him out' I just think for goodness sake, you're getting cricket wrong.

Those people who think cricket is about cricket ...

You're the cricket manc sean.

[Lee]

I agree. But, there is something about what we do with the flag and national identity - particularly the English. It's always about the past, and so rarely about the present. It's 1066, the Empire and the World Wars, it's the old darlings that are backbone of Britain. In Wales and Scotland, that's less prevalent - their identities are more forged in shared social values and experience, and more timeless - particularly so in Wales. I saw this the other day, and couldn't help but feel it well articulated one aspect I've long felt very uncomfortable with - 1159065815930589185

I agree with all of that. I find all sorts of things odd, like obsession with WW2 and pride in the royal family. I don’t really have any interest in those things. When I think of patriotism I think of fish and chips, cosy pubs, football, theatre. It’s about the shared cultural experience, the way we do things. It’s not a claim to be unique, or better than other countries. As Jimmy said in the post I originally responded to, it isn’t about institutions. It’s about enjoying the things we all participate in which make us slightly different, which help us form an identity. And when I say say ‘different’ I don’t mean the English are different to everybody else and somehow special. I mean it in the way that the Germans are slightly different from the French are slightly different from the Italians are slightly different from......you get the point.

You can choose not to engage with the war stuff, or people getting teary eyes at a royal wedding. That stuff does nothing for me either. You can fimd your own way of identifying with a wider community or idea in a way that feels positive to you.

[Lewis]

Everything baldy says in that interview could be turned back on him and his fellows. If the Second World War is the foundations of English exceptionalism, then so it is with the European Union believing itself to have brought peace to the continent, making its existence and propagation an unqualified good (for itself and its core members). You might call it myth-making, and misplaced nostalgia for the enlightened federalism of previous decades. His inability to see that might be considered to be deeply psychological, even obsessive.

[Mellberg]

I agree. He's a boring cunt.

[Lewis]

Then, more recent feelings regarding English and Britishness are certainly the opposite of patriotic... I've never felt so detached from most of the rest of the nation as the last 6 years living in Bristol and London. It's quite clear, that save for Scotland, the rest of the UK is very differently (in significance, obvs) aligned in their political leanings and social values. That means quite a lot to me. It provokes a sense of anger and injustice at it's worst, and a feeling of disconnection at best.

TLDR; No, I'm emphatically not, but I enjoy it in sports.


I agree. But, there is something about what we do with the flag and national identity - particularly the English. It's always about the past, and so rarely about the present. It's 1066, the Empire and the World Wars, it's the old darlings that are backbone of Britain. In Wales and Scotland, that's less prevalent - their identities are more forged in shared social values and experience, and more timeless - particularly so in Wales.

Same with this stuff. Wales was the Brexit MVP and is increasingly Conservative-voting; one half of Scotland hates the other half (and will vote to remain in the alien United Kingdom next chance it gets); and, other than London standing out as a relative hotbed of knife crime and homophobia, every social values survey you see shows barely any difference between the nations. What 'shared social values and experience' ties that lot together, let alone makes it a preferable one? You sound like someone trying to justify wearing a kilt to a wedding.

[Spikey M]

The Scots are fond of the odd stabbing themselves.

[Lewis]

Whilst it may be superficially similar to English stabbings, they have their own distinct culture of 'chibbing'.

[The Merse]

Same with this stuff. Wales was the Brexit MVP and is increasingly Conservative-voting; one half of Scotland hates the other half (and will vote to remain in the alien United Kingdom next chance it gets); and, other than London standing out as a relative hotbed of knife crime and homophobia, every social values survey you see shows barely any difference between the nations. What 'shared social values and experience' ties that lot together, let alone makes it a preferable one? You sound like someone trying to justify wearing a kilt to a wedding.

Yes, I don’t feel any closer to Wales and what I feel for Scotland is more remote than it’s ever been (it having been a hell of a while since I spent more than 3 consecutive months there. I’d certainly include the Welsh as being those I feel extremely remote from in my values - now of course that’s a value vs volume thing - there are a small number of very very significant issues Where I find far more agreement here in London from friends, colleagues, strangers, politicians et al, than I would in the shittowns across the UK I’ve previously lived in. It’s a little less noticeable with Scotland I guess as it is a region whereby I’m most closely aligned to the political and cultural mean, I guess. But I’ve no skin in the independence game dominating things there and again, it’s more London I identify with at present really.

I just don’t really feel the need to collectively identify with 60m odd folk. I’ve plenty of collectives I identify with that I’ve chosen somewhat.

I do get you’re on about Lee - I do feel that, but probably more localised. There’s aspects of Bristol and it’s culture I miss dearly and refer to with great fondness and I certainly do for Islington/London. But I’ve never really felt that at a national level, nor that it would really constitute patriotism. I do think the institution has to come into it - that’s all a country is in my eyes.

[Kikó]

I've felt more of a connection to this part of London (Also Islington, hi neighbour) than England as a whole. I think the concept of idealism of a nation is more childish and emphasise more with Jim's proud of fish and chips and the cover drive.

[The Merse]

I can empathise with it, for sure. I just don’t think it constitutes patriotism for me, as it doesn’t go so far as make me proud to be British. Not that I can’t be n advocate for this island, I think there’s lots we do well. Perhaps it’s also a question of what patriotism means to the individual - my family are big flag waving patriot types of the kind typical of Scots and which is always more reserved in England, so perhaps that has led me to inflate the meaning somewhat.

[Spoonsky]

Echoing some of you here - patriotism for shared cultural experiences rather than symbols or history (there's plenty to be proud of and ashamed of in any country's history). I think I feel especially patriotic about things that people in other countries don't understand, like baseball or really long drives.

I also think growing up with a more 'international' outlook - due to traveling a fair amount and spending most of my time on here as an adolescent - has led me to realize that the USA is a fucked up place in many ways, and the 'American way of life' isn't something I identify with at all. On the contrary, I doubt I'll live here as an adult. But I'll always be American and I'll never hate being American, because that would mean hating myself.