The All New Jobs Thread

[Foe]

When you actually get a job with a more normal working culture your quality life is going to explode.

You’re clearly very good at what you do, but hopefully eventually you get to put that to use in a 9-5 that doesn’t take the piss out of you.

How’s the sun tan coming? Must be summer down there (and fucking hot?)

[Offshore Toon]

In this market everybody should be going for jobs they're barely qualified for.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I don't know if this comes across in my posts (mostly I write them as a means of organising my own thoughts), but I actually enjoy aspects of this job. I mean, how many of you have been to Ecuador on company dollar?

I am also highly rated by and get along well with the guy who has just been appointed sales director, so unless things go south in the next while there's no need to go through the stress of looking elsewhere. Adult life is mainly about reducing stress where possible. There are people who thrive on spontaneity and chaos and constant change; I am not one of them.

[Baz]

Aye, if you don't hate it and the money suits, why bother doing anything else. :thbup:

[Giggles]

I don't know if this comes across in my posts (mostly I write them as a means of organising my own thoughts), but I actually enjoy aspects of this job. I mean, how many of you have been to Ecuador on company dollar?

I am also highly rated by and get along well with the guy who has just been appointed sales director, so unless things go south in the next while there's no need to go through the stress of looking elsewhere. Adult life is mainly about reducing stress where possible. There are people who thrive on spontaneity and chaos and constant change; I am not one of them.

You’ve led us to believe it’s fuck all company dollar though. Going to anywhere on company ‘dollar’ should make you money, a lot of it.

[Dquincy]

I mean, I literally am climbing the ladder. It just doesn't suit me to whinge all the time. They have 12 sales guys or something who travel weekends and aren't paid for it, why would they change it for me.

A literal ladder? You working in the warehouse.

[Jimmy Floyd]

As if to illustrate the point, I just bought 2 bottles of water and a mask in the airport while waiting for a flight to Lima, and the old fella says I won't get the expenses approved for that. Now, I am 98% sure that I will, but it shows you how the 'traditional' company man thinks. Also explains why he's only eating once a day and seething when the flight doesn't offer free food, though that could also be because he's from Yorkshire.

[Baz]

Now then, now then.

[Kikó]

How much is 2L of water anyway? 60p?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I liked Colombia and Ecuador, but Bolivia is a dump. Loads of weird communist type images of subsistence farmers everywhere, dreadful roads, and a real Papers Please vibe at the border.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This is my schedule the next few days

Tomorrow 5am: wake up some place in Bolivia
7am: flight to another place in Bolivia
10am-6pm: with customer
6pm-11pm: fuck knows
11pm: to airport
Thursday 1am: flight from Bolivia to Paraguay
3.30am: land in Paraguay
4.30am: arrive at hotel in Paraguay
8-9am: wake up
10am-5pm: with customer in Paraguay
5pm-6am: fuck knows, we don't have a hotel booked, when I questioned this he just said 'I've got it all under control mister', as he says every time I question his daft itinerary.
Friday 6am: flight from Paraguay to Uruguay
9am-5pm: with customer in Uruguay

Only then does the madness slightly abate.

[Don]

The opportunity for whorehouses on this trip sounds like it's right up your gaffer's street, surprised he's not slipping off for some of that :drool:

[Lofty]

Surely the more grandad indulges his lust the more chance Jim has flying back with his coffin.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Today we are selling a load of stuff to these lads: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonites_in_Bolivia

They're not quite as weird as the Amish but definitely in that ballpark. One of their rules is that if you have a tractor with a combustion engine, it's not allowed to use rubber tyres. Also is just plain odd to see all these blue eyed, blonde haired people in a country which is shoving indigenous rights down your throat as soon as you get into the airport.

[Baz]

Is it acceptable to work all day in a Starbucks while waiting for my car to have its service and MOT? I’ll be buying drinks, like.

[Boydy]

Yeah.

[Baz]

Cool. That’s tomorrow sorted.

[mo]

On strike again tomorrow. Joining the picket this time which will be an experience, I suppose. Don't expect it'll garner much attention.

Read the other day on Twitter that so far, primary teacher applications are down 15% on this time last year, secondary up 2%. Both horrendous figures that will lead to a crisis imminently (alternatively, will deepen the crisis that is already underway). Reason enough to strike on its own.

[randomlegend]

Teaching is absolutely fucked.

[Manc]

Has it not always been fucked?

[randomlegend]

It's just getting worse and worse. So many teachers are leaving and as Mo's stats point out, people have finally cottoned on to how shit it's got so there won't be enough fresh lambs to go to the slaughter to replace the burnt out ones.

It's a completely unmanageable and unsustainable job. My wife moved to be a teacher in a specialist school this year - which is marginally better - but she'll be out of the career within a couple more years. My auntie and uncle have both been teachers for 35+ years and are packing it in because it's by far the worst it's ever been.

[Shindig]

That's the thing that struck me. Plenty of people I went to school with went into teaching but they never, ever sounded happy with it.

[Spikey M]

My cousin was a teacher for 15 years and she left to be a private tutor a few months back. She didn't paint a pretty picture of the situation either.

good job she wasn't an Art teacher :henn0rz:

[Jimmy Floyd]

My observation of the several teachers I know is that to have any holistic satisfaction you have to go into it as a vocation (i.e. something you love beyond everything which also happens to pay you), because as a job it's fucking shit.

[Ben]

Also nursing.

A few times my wife has mentioned that some nurses on her ward are clearly there for whatever status it brings socially, because they clearly hate the job and have no intention of doing it well.

[Pepe]

The problem with teaching as a vocation is that teachers are not even allowed to teach. New requirements are shoved their way every five minutes and every ill of society is then blamed on them.

[randomlegend]

Exactly. Easily more than 50% of a teachers workload is not teaching nor anything done in aid of teaching (like planning). It's bullshit form filling and producing data for Ofsted.

[Baz]

Is it acceptable to work all day in a Starbucks while waiting for my car to have its service and MOT? I’ll be buying drinks, like.
I would not recommend this.

Starbucks is expensive and they blast the aircon so it's also cold.

[mo]

Exactly. Easily more than 50% of a teachers workload is not teaching nor anything done in aid of teaching (like planning). It's bullshit form filling and producing data for Ofsted.

We have one fire drill every term (so three a year) - we're already on five due to kids vaping in the bogs. Shit like that has been a massive drain on time because if you're mid-lesson, the rest is a write-off. Dealing with behaviour, punctuality etc takes up way too much of my time.

Good turnout for the picket today, 8 in total. 4 NEU members crossed, scabs. Couple of v signs from white van men, but more beeps/thumbs up, which was pleasing.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Got into Paraguay at 4am, got three hours's sleep, still sat in their office examining ancient John Deere spindle kits. Up at three in the morning and they're desperate to take us out for a beef dinner tonight.

Latin Americans are the most friendly and hospitable people I have ever come across. I just wish they weren't.

[Lofty]

When you call the shots can you not fiddle the itinerary to account for this?

[Lofty]

Also nursing.

A few times my wife has mentioned that some nurses on her ward are clearly there for whatever status it brings socially, because they clearly hate the job and have no intention of doing it well.

Yeah an old girlfriend of mine is a nurse but it's definitely a calling for her, every year she takes two weeks holiday and goes to Lordes to help the sick with their pilgrimage. Don't even bother asking me for a train time when I'm off the clock.


I would not recommend this.

Starbucks is expensive and they blast the aircon so it's also cold.

I assumed you knew the expensive bit, it's well known? If you go to a proper cafe (as in not a chain) they usually do half price refills etc and it's cheaper to start.

[Dquincy]

What sort of hours do teachers work? Genuinely interested if anyone is or lives with a teacher.

[Spikey M]

What sort of hours do teachers work? Genuinely interested if anyone is or lives with a teacher.

Hard to define. Their proper hours will be something like 8 - 3:30. So, what, 7 and a half hours with some breaks thrown in. But then there's lesson prep, homework marking, and bullshit forms to fill in which take as long as they take and have to be done in your own time.

The mental amout of holiday they get is the only positive.

[Manc]

Anyone working in their own time is a mug.

[Raoul Duke]

What sort of hours do teachers work? Genuinely interested if anyone is or lives with a teacher.


Hard to define. Their proper hours will be something like 8 - 3:30. So, what, 7 and a half hours with some breaks thrown in. But then there's lesson prep, homework marking, and bullshit forms to fill in which take as long as they take and have to be done in your own time.

The mental amout of holiday they get is the only positive.

My wife was a teacher for years - she'd often work until 10pm to prep stuff for lessons/marking, parents evening etc. Often a sizeable portion of the holidays would be take up by the above as well, plus they don't get paid for the holiday (I think).


Anyone working in their own time is a mug.

The unions are absolute pussies here. They should be on strike until some massive fundamental changes happen, or (like nurses) they'll just be guilted ever more into minuscule pay bumps for ridiculous hours. In any other job there would be people hired to take care of the admin guff/digitise it so the experts could focus on the thing of value

[randomlegend]

What sort of hours do teachers work? Genuinely interested if anyone is or lives with a teacher.

7:30am til 10pm with some weekend days wasn't unusual when she was in mainstream. She would also work plenty of days of her holidays. It's better now she's in specialist; probably 7:30am til 6pm or something.

They also end up having to spend loads of their own money on stuff for school as well.


Anyone working in their own time is a mug.

If public sector workers all decided tomorrow they were going to stick to that then public services would fail immediately.

[randomlegend]

some breaks thrown in.

She literally never, ever has the opportunity to take a break.

[Lewis]

Marking I can see, and keeping up with the latest Islamist sensibilities and tranny theory must take a bit of your free time up, but how much 'prep' goes into teaching kids? Surely once you're a few years into it you can recite your subject and lessons in your sleep.

[Luke Emia]

I would not recommend this.

Starbucks is expensive and they blast the aircon so it's also cold.

Had a two hour teams in Starbucks today as the office is too noisy for that kind of shit. Was absolutely fine.

[randomlegend]

Marking I can see, and keeping up with the latest Islamist sensibilities and tranny theory must take a bit of your free time up, but how much 'prep' goes into teaching kids? Surely once you're a few years into it you can recite your subject and lessons in your sleep.

Curriculum constantly gets changed, you get moved to different years, you have to supply suitable work for the various different SEN kids you might have in your class, doing displays in the classroom, writing reports, doing parents evenings, producing the mountains of data Ofsted requires, filling out EHCP applications, running after school clubs, helping at the school disco, supervising at breaktimes. It is literally endless. Surprisingly enough it's not some big conspiracy that all teachers are in on. It's just a completely unmanageable workload.

[Luke Emia]

Curriculum constantly gets changed, you get moved to different years, you have to supply suitable work for the various different SEN kids you might have in your class, doing displays in the classroom, writing reports, doing parents evenings, producing the mountains of data Ofsted requires, filling out EHCP applications, running after school clubs, helping at the school disco, supervising at breaktimes. It is literally endless. Surprisingly enough it's not some big conspiracy that all teachers are in on. It's just a completely unmanageable workload.

Yeah my ex was a teacher it was a fucking nightmare.

[Baz]

Had a two hour teams in Starbucks today as the office is too noisy for that kind of shit. Was absolutely fine.

I was in there 9-3.

Didn't mind really because a) they played Elliott Smith, b) the woman serving me was quite fit and c) the service and MOT were both free cos I'd bought my car from there.

I'll tell you what is rubbish though - Cheshire Oaks.

[Lewis]

Paperwork problems and having to bend over backwards for spastics notwithstanding (I am more than sympathetic there), I feel like if somebody knocked on my door right now and wanted some lessons covering in my particular subject (TTH History), I could do that without overly taxing myself. How much rapid curriculum change is going on to throw a teacher off a subject that they supposedly specialise in?

[Shindig]

The people coming to your door wouldn't be kids.

[randomlegend]

Paperwork problems and having to bend over backwards for spastics notwithstanding (I am more than sympathetic there), I feel like if somebody knocked on my door right now and wanted some lessons covering in my particular subject (TTH History), I could do that without overly taxing myself. How much rapid curriculum change is going on to throw a teacher off a subject that they supposedly specialise in?

Lol.

[Lewis]

Maybe the sheer breadth of my TTH knowledge is blinding me a bit here, but if I think back to GCSE English (say), the teacher would read the stuff out along with you, and then offer/ask for analysis. If I have a relevant degree and a teaching qualification, I should be able to do that off the cuff with an entirely new text to a level that keeps me ahead of fifteen year olds. If I'm teaching it regularly and know the text[s] a bit better, how hard can it be?

[randomlegend]

To expand on the frustration behind that useless post, your starting point with regards to understanding teaching is just so far divorced from reality that it's futile trying to convince you, especially given you are reluctant to being convinced. Most of the general public are the same. They genuinely want to believe teaching is an easy job they could all do and teachers en masse are just lazy and useless.

There's a similar attitude towards other public sector workers, but it's by far the worst towards teachers.

What do you think happens to the teachers who leave teaching because it's unbearable? They go and work in private sector jobs. Where they do well. Because they are drastically less demanding.

[randomlegend]

Maybe the sheer breadth of my TTH knowledge is blinding me a bit here, but if I think back to GCSE English (say), the teacher would read the stuff out along with you, and then offer/ask for analysis. If I have a relevant degree and a teaching qualification, I should be able to do that off the cuff with an entirely new text to a level that keeps me ahead of fifteen year olds. If I'm teaching it regularly and know the text[s] a bit better, how hard can it be?

I can only comment on primary school teaching, but if the lessons you are putting up are "read stuff along and ask for analysis" you'll be shitheaped pretty quickly.

Regardless, actually being a teacher (i.e planning and delivering lessons) is not what makes up the majority of the workload. If teachers were allowed to just be teachers I highly suspect the majority of them would be happy and staying in the career. But it isn't. There is basically a full time admin (+other stuff) job on top of being teacher.

[Lewis]

Right, so now you've changed your nappy, the administrative burden is clearly the problem. I'm not saying they're lazy and useless. But knowing their actual subject, that I presume they have a degree in, to a level where they should be able to impart it to kids without having to expend that much pre-class effort (compared to the other shitty burdens) seems like a pretty basic expectation. That's all I've questioned.

[randomlegend]

But knowing their actual subject, that I presume they have a degree in, to a level where they should be able to impart it to kids without having to expend that much pre-class effort (compared to the other shitty burdens) seems like a pretty basic expectation. That's all I've questioned.

No, it's still not as straightforward as that. There is an expectation that you actually deliver interesting, engaging, innovative lessons. Rocking up and reading out of a book and asking for analysis isn't deemed an acceptable standard of teaching.

Understanding something and delivering it to children in a way which is accessible and makes them actually want to learn are totally different things. You can have a PHD in rocket science and still be useless at teaching 7 year olds about gravity.

[niko_cee]

Without wanting to cast aspersions, a surprising number of primary school teachers are found to 'lack secure knowledge of x, y or z subject' by Ofsted.

I think the actual killer is the cultural obsession with inclusivity [without appropriate support being available] which just leaves them firefighting the [many] fuckheads who are all too happy being disruptive. But this is me looking at my kids' primary school education through the eyes of a 41 year old, part of the colonial patriarchy, so it's a tricky one.

[randomlegend]

Without wanting to cast aspersions, a surprising number of primary school teachers are found to 'lack secure knowledge of x, y or z subject' by Ofsted.


For all my defence of teachers, this is 100% true.

[Dquincy]

Probably be the police.

[Pepe]

Maybe the sheer breadth of my TTH knowledge is blinding me a bit here, but if I think back to GCSE English (say), the teacher would read the stuff out along with you, and then offer/ask for analysis. If I have a relevant degree and a teaching qualification, I should be able to do that off the cuff with an entirely new text to a level that keeps me ahead of fifteen year olds. If I'm teaching it regularly and know the text[s] a bit better, how hard can it be?

Nowadays my prep time for the 4-5 classes I teach goes from about zero to thirty minutes per lecture, but I am allowed to do whatever I want. Teachers are probably asked to employ specific 'inclusive pedagogies' that change every couple of years, and that must get really annoying.

[randomlegend]

Nowadays my prep time for the 4-5 classes I teach goes from about zero to thirty minutes per lecture, but I am allowed to do whatever I want. Teachers are probably asked to employ specific 'inclusive pedagogies' that change every couple of years, and that must get really annoying.

It also makes a difference teaching adults who have chosen to be there vs children who are forced to be there. I can deliver a pretty decent seminar to med students. I could not teach kids.

[Pepe]

Most don't really act like they chose to be there, but agreed.

EDIT: Then again, the material is actually complicated. Algebra is piss easy.

[Lewis]

Schools and teaching must be massively improved on when I was there if the 'expectation' is that lessons are engaging and innovative.

[phonics]

Lewis has had one job in his entire life but presumes he knows everything about everyone elses. There's legitimately no point in engaging with him.

[Lewis]

Not when you're not even capable of reading what I've put.

[Pepe]

Teachers definitely have it tougher (mainly because of all of the surrounding stuff, not the teaching itself) and get paid less than me. Then again, that is why schools get less than stellar people to fill the role.

I reckon that if Lewis and I (and Spikey) were allowed to run the TTH Academy for Quite Excellent Youths, we would create the next golden generation no problem.

[phonics]

"How hard can it be?" says man who has worked 1 job ever ignoring the multitude of other things they have to do outside the lesson that has been pointed out to him over and over again.

[Pepe]

Most jobs are not all that hard.

[randomlegend]

Hence why most people are unable to comprehend that some (like teaching) genuinely are that hard.

[phonics]

Google says 18 per hour is a decent teaching salary. I pour pints at a pub for 5 quid an hour less.

[phonics]

Google says 18 per hour is a decent teaching salary. I pour pints at a pub for 5 quid an hour less.

LOL I just realised this is for someone with multiple years of experience and an entry level teacher is making less than I do to educate 30 children than I do to make sure a Staropramen is put in the correct glass.

[Lewis]

"How hard can it be?" says man who has worked 1 job ever ignoring the multitude of other things they have to do outside the lesson that has been pointed out to him over and over again.

I asked how hard a specific part of it is whilst repeatedly acknowledging the things you claim that I have ignored. Why can't you read things properly?

[neo_hippy]

Everything RL has said is true.

The Mrs is a primary teacher. Sets off at 7-7.30 each morning and never back before 6pm. Then works at least 4 hours each weekend and spends plenty of her money on class "materials". It really is a crap job.

I've shown her how her quality of life would be able the same stacking shelves. So any decent job would be far better.

She's off on maternity leave now though. so i think shes at least got another year or so there to avoid paying anything back. I can't wait for her to decide to pack it in

[Jimmy Floyd]

Bad news: the Paraguayan hotel forgot our 3am alarm calls
Good news: my circadian rhythms are so fucked that I never got to sleep in the first place

[Giggles]

Mine is the same, she worked from the time she came home yesterday til about 8pm, and will have to at the weekend too. They'll probably rob her pension before she retires too.

[Gray Fox]

I think the actual killer is the cultural obsession with inclusivity [without appropriate support being available] which just leaves them firefighting the [many] fuckheads who are all too happy being disruptive. But this is me looking at my kids' primary school education through the eyes of a 41 year old, part of the colonial patriarchy, so it's a tricky one.

The Mrs is a TA and this is also very true. She's said it's very surprising just how hard it is to get a disruptive dickhead kid removed. That's not even taking into account the ones who have genuine issues.
Sometimes the parents will work with you on it, but others it's very clear the parents have caused the problem child and you're just their babysitter for the day.

The easiest solution is to just gather the problem kids in their own class, however with teaching numbers way down it just isn't possible.

[Dquincy]

Everything RL has said is true.

The Mrs is a primary teacher. Sets off at 7-7.30 each morning and never back before 6pm. Then works at least 4 hours each weekend and spends plenty of her money on class "materials". It really is a crap job.

I've shown her how her quality of life would be able the same stacking shelves. So any decent job would be far better.

She's off on maternity leave now though. so i think shes at least got another year or so there to avoid paying anything back. I can't wait for her to decide to pack it in

Tbf, that's not too bad. I do those hours for work. Out the house by 7am ish and leave the office around 6pm.

[neo_hippy]

Tbf, that's not too bad. I do those hours for work. Out the house by 7am ish and leave the office around 6pm.

Without knowing your salary and commute time it's hard to compare jobs.

But someone as qualified as a teacher would be can get far better terms elsewhere

[Lofty]

My ma used to work for children's services to try and tackle absentee kids and the amount of parents who were just like 'can you not just pay for a taxi to get them to school' rather than wanting to sort the issues out was unreal.

[Shindig]

Aye, the problems don't just stop at the kids.

[Spikey M]

Yeah, it's usually a drug/alcohol feuled abusive hellhole all around.

[wullie]

My wife's a teacher and the part where you're just getting to teach (the kids who aren't pricks) is the part she loves, you could parachute her in and tell her that year 9 are at whichever point in the curriculum and she could wing an hour of wo ist die bahnhof bitte with no problem. It's the constant changes and all the other stuff that grinds them all down, things like having to deal with non-caring parents who couldn't give less of a shit if their dickhead kids aren't doing any work and having a 'senior leader' team who avoid getting involved in the kind of thing that surely falls well within their remit.

[Waffdon]

That’s a lot of TTH’ers with teachers as their partners.

I think Scotland will accept the new offer that’s due to come in - 7% backdated a year, 4.5.% from January to August this year and further 2% from next year I think.

[Pen]

Interesting stuff to read as I’m in the process of quitting teaching (I’m on study leave atm and don’t intend to return). I do echo the sentiment that actual teaching is great and I loved that part, but there’s so much unnecessary and time consuming shit that comes with the job that it really ruins the overall experience. Add in the fact that the wage is pretty shit and it’s no wonder people are jumping ship.

[Lofty]

The wage is terrible, mental really. I have this argument regularly as she is in the 'teachers do fuck all' camp and I'm a militant bleeding heart leftie who's mum was a teacher etc so I naturally support the right to strike. People are so angry about teachers wanting more money as if they have to pay the increase themselves, surely you want the best candidates available due to it being an attractive job. Same as the police 'oh no it's full of fucking morons' yeah because the pay is hilariously bad for anyone with a brain.

[Foe]

My mum was a teacher and the changes drove her to retire early. She’d be coming home from work and then working until midnight. It was absolutely mental to see.

Shame really, as I can imagine actual teaching being really rewarding. Isn’t sousepig a teacher? Be interested to hear his view.

[Pepe]

Hence why most people are unable to comprehend that some (like teaching) genuinely are that hard.

Time consuming? Sure. Soul sucking? No doubt. Full of annoying as fuck tasks? Definitely. But hard, as in requiring people with high level skills and/or talent to do? I don't think so.

[SvN]

I'd pay good money to see Lewis try and teach some year 9 set 5 class.

[randomlegend]

Time consuming? Sure. Soul sucking? No doubt. Full of annoying as fuck tasks? Definitely. But hard, as in requiring people with high level skills and/or talent to do? I don't think so.

Being a good teacher definitely requires skill/talent. The difference between a teacher phoning it in and a good teacher is absolutely stark.

It's not talent for the same sorts of things as being some world class authority in an intellectual field, but that doesn't make it less valuable.

Genuinely brilliant teachers can make a lifelong positive difference to a kid's life.

[Pepe]

Of course being a good *insert profession here* requires skill/talent. But being a median teacher does not. Nobody expects Robin Williams level teaching from everyone. Saying open your book in page 54 and do the exercises does not require some elevated intellect.

Of course there is the 'if we wanted better teachers we would pay more,' which I agree with, as long as it goes together with 'fire all of the shit ones.'

[Spikey M]

Pepe teaches American 21 year olds that care about mental health and feelings. Put him in a city school made up of 14 and 15 year olds and see how easy he thinks it is.

I would have a mental breakdown / end up facing a murder charge within the first week if I was confronted with the shit my teachers had to deal with.

[randomlegend]

Saying open your book in page 54 and do the exercises does not require some elevated intellect.
'

My wife has worked in schools across the entire range of Ofsted gradings and that kind of teaching would not have been accepted in any of them. They are regularly observed by senior leadership and given feedback on their teaching.

Yes, there are shit teachers. But the idea that you'll get by fine by just turning up and telling the kids to do a worksheet whilst you mark books just isn't reality.

[Pepe]

Put him in a city school made up of 14 and 15 year olds and see how easy he thinks it is.

I would not do it because it would be a waste of my time and actual skills/talents.

But yes lads. The wives of TTH could be finding cures for cancer right now plus solving Millennium Problems on their free time, but instead they choose to spend their time teaching rowdy toddlers how to count and where their knee is. Bless their hearts.

[Pepe]

I would have a mental breakdown / end up facing a murder charge within the first week if I was confronted with the shit my teachers had to deal with.

Sure, but then that doesn't make the teachers talented, unless 'willing to put of with shit' is the talent we're taking about here in which case they are indeed very talented.

[randomlegend]

But yes lads. The wives of TTH could be finding cures for cancer right now plus solving Millennium Problems on their free time,

You are a proper boring idiot to discuss anything with. It's amazing you're apparently some sort of academic. Or maybe it's not, actually.

[Spikey M]

I would not do it because it would be a waste of my time and actual skills/talents.

But yes lads. The wives of TTH could be finding cures for cancer right now plus solving Millennium Problems on their free time, but instead they choose to spend their time teaching rowdy toddlers how to count and where their knee is. Bless their hearts.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying their skills are wasted on teaching, I am saying their skill IS teaching. And it's a skill you are underestimating because lecturing at a University is easy. In a school, especially a rough one like I went to, you would be effectively bullied unless you can control the room. Which most of my teachers couldn't. The type of calm but menacing authority needed to do well is pretty rare.

[Spikey M]

Sure, but then that doesn't make the teachers talented, unless 'willing to put of with shit' is the talent we're taking about here in which case they are indeed very talented.

Not willing to put up with. Able to prevent.

[Pepe]

I agree that lecturing at a University is easy, very easy indeed, but I would like to see most of those quite excellent teachers try to explain the Navier-Stokes equation to a group of students. Most of them could not, since must of them couldn't even get a degree in Engineering.

As for 'controlling the room,' I agree that is not for everyone and it sucks that it is just made harder by idiot administrators.

[randomlegend]

Clueless.

[Spikey M]

Clueless.

I think the kids are just different over there. In my school the kids didn't dream of attending Uni, or becoming a doctor. Their dream was simply to make the teacher lose their shit by the end of the lesson. And then the teacher had 30 little cunts :harold:ing them for an hour and a half while they get tormented.

Maybe that happens in "I pledge allegiance to the flag" America too, I dunno. I doubt it though. I've seen Freedom Writers.

[Pepe]

This is what happens over here:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/02/06/newport-news-school-shooting-6-year-old-incidents-lawyer-teacher/11199382002/

:harold:

But then you already knew that.

[randomlegend]

It's not even just about having good behaviour management. It's about actually inspiring and engaging kids in learning, which is what good teachers can do. It's not something anyone can do, it's not something that can be easily taught and it also takes time and preparation.

"Yeah but they can't do engineering equations mate" so fucking what? Yes, a university lecturer in engineering will have knowledge and talents a primary school teacher probably doesn't. Are you that insecure that you can't deal with the fact that they will have different knowledge and talents that you don't? You have to be "above" them in some way? Such a fucking bizarre line of argument.

[Spikey M]

Yeah we get the violence too, albeit wothout the guns. This is different to that.

[Pepe]

Alright lads, got to go TEACH THE YOUTH. Behave yourselves while I am gone, alright?

[randomlegend]

I bet he's really boring lol

[Lewis]

I agree that lecturing at a University is easy, very easy indeed, but I would like to see most of those quite excellent teachers try to explain the Navier-Stokes equation to a group of students. Most of them could not, since must of them couldn't even get a degree in Engineering.

As for 'controlling the room,' I agree that is not for everyone and it sucks that it is just made harder by idiot administrators.

You could replace ninety per cent of academics with pretty much anyone with a relevant PhD, which, as I used to point out to my supervisor whenever she was complaining and striking, is why their terms and conditions will always be a bit worse than they think they deserve, because there are lots and lots of PhDs for every academic position. At the same time, producing all of those surplus post-graduate qualifications is what keeps the majority of them in work, so they end up being boxed in between their current middling terms or better conditions for the half of them that keep their jobs in a drastically reduced university sector. For all the complaints you read about the big professors on massive salaries and everyone else not, it seems like the natural result of that system.

[Lewis]

I'd pay good money to see Lewis try and teach some year 9 set 5 class.

Writing my name on the board, '...and I am the six-time "Beee-st Poooo-ster". Got it?'

[Dquincy]

That’s a lot of TTH’ers with teachers as their partners.

I think Scotland will accept the new offer that’s due to come in - 7% backdated a year, 4.5.% from January to August this year and further 2% from next year I think.
My wife teaches me all sorts of things.

[Manc]

No means no etc.

[Dquincy]

Can't say no if she's asleep.

[Dquincy]

Without knowing your salary and commute time it's hard to compare jobs.

But someone as qualified as a teacher would be can get far better terms elsewhere
All very good points. Fairs.

[Pepe]

I bet he's really boring lol

Don't make me pull out my course evaluations, mate.

[Pepe]

You could replace ninety per cent of academics with pretty much anyone with a relevant PhD, which, as I used to point out to my supervisor whenever she was complaining and striking, is why their terms and conditions will always be a bit worse than they think they deserve, because there are lots and lots of PhDs for every academic position. At the same time, producing all of those surplus post-graduate qualifications is what keeps the majority of them in work, so they end up being boxed in between their current middling terms or better conditions for the half of them that keep their jobs in a drastically reduced university sector. For all the complaints you read about the big professors on massive salaries and everyone else not, it seems like the natural result of that system.

The 'ArtSci' crowd over here has been bitching about their salaries via email lately. If any of them could find a job elsewhere, or if the university couldn't find fifty people to replace each of them within five minutes, they might have a point. As is, I just say that if they don't like their pay, they should just work less.

[Shindig]

I can't see Lewis lasting an hour without calling one of the kids a slur. It's just written in the stars.

[Foe]

Still alive, Jim? Or have the Paraguayans* got you?

Had one of those days today where something broke that’s nothing to do with me, and it’s immediately my problem to fix whilst nobody wants any of the options available. :moop: high five to the drilling engineers who broke the equipment, provided the problem for me to deal with and then are telling me they won’t take their shit back.

Had my pay review today though, 5.4% pay rise and a double digit bonus means it’s almost tolerable.

[Giggles]

Handy teaching. Lewis teaching :D

[Pepe]

Two donuts. Final offer.

[Giggles]

I’m going with one, but I’ll up it if needed.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Still alive, Jim? Or have the Paraguayans* got you?

Entered Uruguay this morning on no sleep and immediately (in the immigration queue) got the shits. Would like to think it's another dirty Luis Suarez trick but the Paraguayans (what an awful country, jeez) must be to blame via the one rodizio meal I ate there. I did what I could in the airport and then much to my horror, we aren't taking some crappy taxi into Montevideo but instead the customer has come to pick us up in his gleaming white pickup with (now formerly) white leather seats.

You can't give in to these things so after spending an hour on the toilet I went all stiff upper lip with four pairs of underwear underneath some fresh trousers. Pressed the down button on the lift and off she goes again. More new pants, more trousers, sorry I'm five minutes late gaffer and out for a steak lunch with the customer before business.

They say 'don't fill up on bread' but when that bread basket came I was going at it like a starving peasant. Mas pan señor? Sí sí por supuesto que sí.

Managed to hide it all day thanks to having mainlined some Sainsbury's tablets, got back into the hotel at 5, and ayayayay.

[Foe]

Well that sounds pleasant.

Send an angry tweet at roque Santa Cruz in retaliation.

[randomlegend]

Another things that's really been pissing me off about the coverage of the junior doctors' pay dispute is how it's reported as £X salary for "full time". But for most people (and what people will think of) full time is considered to be 35+ hours a week. For junior doctors it's 48 hours a week. A full 12 hours shift more. I work 36 hours a week and am considered 80% of fulltime with the commensurate 20% reduction in pay from the headline figures you'll have heard.

And that's before you even consider all the unpaid hours we end up doing.

I might have already moaned about this point. If I have then I don't care, I'm moaning again.

[Dquincy]

All I'm reading is you're working part time.

[Spikey M]

Jimmy? JIMMY!? (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21589933/brit-arrested-columbia-drugs/)

[Shindig]

It always weirds me out when there's barely an element of disguise to it. Hide those bricks, son.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You'd have to be thick as shit to even attempt that. Hopefully he spends the rest of his days getting buggered in a maximum security prison by gentlemen who grew up fucking pigs, as they all do here for practice.

[Ian]

I bet Colombian prisons are a right laugh.

Reminds me of this that I read the other day: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-64770716

"The jail will eventually hold more than 40,000 people." :|

[Spikey M]

Imagine all the *ahem* special treatment you'd get being a lone British bloke in there.

[Kikó]

Exactly. Another benefit of brexit.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Today (a Sunday) our customer in Chile took us out for lunch. It was a nice restaurant, but the conversation, jeez. This guy is 77 years old, his wife in her 70s too so I was giving up 40 years plus to all three of my lunch companions. It started off ok but we were right next to a massive air conditioning unit and a speaker playing crooner hits at maximum volume, which meant I had to sit through a 20 minute period where into my left ear was coming a lengthy of explanation of why General Pinochet was a great man and the best thing for Chile, while in my right ear I had a seemingly endless loop of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1needAV_NQ).

After a manzanilla on the house, I thought I'd got away with it at 3.30 but no, the geezer and his wife insist on furthering the hospitality which involves driving us up into the hills outside Santiago where he has a suspiciously nice house. More Pinochet chat followed in the garden, followed by everyone agreeing that the men should go out and work and the woman's place is in the home, and then it was inside for G&Ts - it was like living in some kind of Conservative Club nightmare, but in Santiago. I then sat there for hours while this man talked at me about topics as exciting as how they don't have wills in Chile, and the legal gymnastics involved in acquiring the plot of land to build his office back in the 80s (you guessed it, the Pinochet government loaned him loads of money). Finally at 6 it was time to leave, but even in the car there was no escape from the General as we drove past what used to be his house, a massive estate located conveniently close to where the customer lives.

Day 16 of 19 nearly over, nearly at the end of this mission.

[Spikey M]

The only South American country to back the British in the Falklands. Great man, Pinochet. RIP.

[Boydy]

I thought you'd have enjoyed the Pinochet chat tbh.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I mean it is (post Pinochet) a free country and he can stan who he likes, but jeez give it a rest. If I have someone over to my house I don't spend the entire time telling them that Thatcher was great.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Really?

[Spikey M]

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit.

[Boydy]

I tell everyone who comes to my house how great Salvador Allende was.

[Boydy]

The postman is sick of my shit.

[Shindig]

It's the only 9/11 worth talking about. :uhoh:

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Pinochet fan has done two Nazi salutes today, one when the boss asked the waiter if they had apple strudel, and another when he chose Jagermeister as an aperitif.

It's actually quite refreshing how they lack the stupid baggage around these things that we do. I have heard 'negrito' a LOT on this trip, if any Suarez fans are interested. It's literally just a physical description, nothing more.

[Don]

Jesus, utd melts taking hits everywhere.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Day 17 of this thing now and I've finally had enough. Fed up with coming back to hotels where you can't drink the water because it's unsafe or tastes like shit or both, so to get water you have to go downstairs and change your dollars into the joke local currency and buy water and then do about 3 different forms to expense it. Fed up with this old cunt extending our working days by 2 hours every day because his hands shake too much to use a laptop competently but he also won't accept my help to speed things up. Fed up with him saying 'the young man doesn't understand' when I consistently come up with correct solutions for the customer, 10 times faster than his method of using 40 year old catalogues and folk memory. Fed up with eating out with customers every single day and having to listen to dogshit anecdotes about the 1970s in Spanish all the way through meal after meal after meal (I've become amazing at picking up laughter cues even when the mind has shut down).

Also very fed up with the pricks back in the office complaining that my absence (i.e. them looking after my day to day) is making them busy. Try and do this iron man effort and not have any time off for a month, you arseholes.

Literally can't wait to get home on Wednesday night and cook scrambled eggs and you know, do the washing or something.

[Shindig]

Someone will have already kicked your door in to do the washing.

[Lofty]

At least treat yourself to a takeaway for surviving the ordeal.

[Ian]

I reckon I'd have hit the point you're at no later than the first Nazi salute, Jimmy. But possibly also as early as literally any of the other things you've described.

[phonics]

Jimmy’s optimistic to fucking hell I hate this mood for this trip has mirrored the majority of my extended business trips but exchange nazi salutes for Elton John being a prick.

On my second to last one and my final day there, I realised my refreshing Coca Cola had an ice cube in it half way through and spent the next 3 days including multi hour flight pissing out of my arse and had to justify to an attractive Swiss pharmacist why I needed anti-laxatives.

[Shindig]

This is going to lead to more South America trips, too.

[Ben]

An anal cavity search on the way home will round it off nicely.

[Spikey M]

Jimmy is going to need some deradicalisation training when he gets back. Pray he never gets sent to Afghanistan.

[Lofty]

Barney will be sabotaging Jim's promotion so he doesn't get stuck taking calls from Francois and Juan in his absence.

[Jimmy Floyd]

My main takeaway (as well as the renewed respect and love for solid turds) is that to do this regularly I really need to get paid quite a lot more than I am.

[Luke Emia]

My main takeaway (as well as the renewed respect and love for solid turds) is that to do this regularly I really need to get paid quite a lot more than I am.

100% should be minimum of £200 a day whilst you are away on top of your wage. Or double your daily wage which ever is higher.

[Mike]

Haven’t people on here been telling you that for ages?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I agree, it's quite hard to explain how out of date this industry is and how dominated by 1970s norms it is. For instance I've just performed a 2.5 week trip around South America without a company credit card.

Now going to airport, the very last chat with Pinochet man was about how Jewish financiers organised 9/11. I just smiled. What a way to finish.

[Foe]

Do you at least get a heap of commission out of the South Americans?

On the plus side you’ve many stories of extensive travels. On the downside your stories will revolve around talking about work, rather than wanky tourist photos.

Good effort though, Turkey dinosaurs and smiley faces to celebrate your return.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I am on no commission at the moment, this trip is for experience and the plan is when I get back I have a one to one with the new boss (who is my age thank fuck) telling me the terms of a new deal with salary + commission and which countries I will have to go to and how often.

Should be interesting. I would leave a biggish hole now so it's time to be more assertive.

[Foe]

Have you done much to benchmark your worth elsewhere?

Ie a 10% payrise might sound like a lot, but is it really in the grand scheme of things?

[Jimmy Floyd]

All I know is if they want me to do this sort of thing even twice a year I need to be earning (via whatever means) double what I'm currently on.

[Raoul Duke]

You should be interviewing a couple of times a year for other roles just to test the water. This place seems horrifically backwards on literally every measure

[Foe]

Yeah, that’s the advice our VP of HR told us on day 1.

I’ve never really done it, but applying for other jobs and getting internal interviews kicked the firestorm in the same way.

What sort of job do you fancy Jim? Or is this it, and they just need to pay you more?

[Ben]

Definitely. I’m not doing it currently because they’re upping my pay annually by a satisfactory amount and I can be at home every night which is a luxury in my industry. When that ends in a few years I’ll certainly be back to shopping around.

[Baz]

At least Jim doesn’t hate his job. Nothing worse than the thing you have to do everyday grinding you down and making you miserable.

The contrast in my job satisfaction between now and 5 years ago is phenomenal. :drool:

[SvN]

We hired a new developer 2 weeks ago, and he's absolutely hopeless. I really need to change how we interview and assess candidates because there's no way this idiot should've been hired.

[Lofty]

Another brutal firing by SvN :drool:

[Foe]

What’s he managed to do in 2 weeks to earn such a scathing review of internal SvN inc. policies?

[Boydy]

We hired a new developer 2 weeks ago, and he's absolutely hopeless. I really need to change how we interview and assess candidates because there's no way this idiot should've been hired.

What do you do for interviews?

[Lofty]

I imagine it's the usual 'tell me about a time when you had to do x' stuff that is useless for determining someone's suitability for a skilled post, but is the blagger's dream ticket. Our lot have been caught out by that before.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yeah, that’s the advice our VP of HR told us on day 1.

I’ve never really done it, but applying for other jobs and getting internal interviews kicked the firestorm in the same way.

What sort of job do you fancy Jim? Or is this it, and they just need to pay you more?

I like this but they do need to pay me or it won't be worth the hassle going forward.

Just done a 6 hour flight from Santiago to Bogota, operated on Easyjet terms i.e. they don't give you even water or a coffee or let you recline the seat. Avianca honestly the shittest airline in the world, so it's lucky I now have another 10 hour flight with them back to London taking off in a couple of hours.

[Kikó]

It's international women's Day and the state of Berlin celebrate. Thanks for the day off.

[SvN]

What’s he managed to do in 2 weeks to earn such a scathing review of internal SvN inc. policies?

It's just the quality of his work. We've given him a really basic internal project to get started with, that hits on a few different areas (managing performance, third party API integration, database design) that make up a big part of the job. The plan was to let him do it, review and then show him what would need to change to align to our standards/practices. The problem is a 1-2 day project has taken 2 weeks (so far) and our Lead Developer's feedback yesterday was that it was just a massive shitshow.

Some of his choices are baffling even to me, who hasn't developed anything for about 5 years and was poor at best when I did.


What do you do for interviews?

An introductory 30 minute chat where we ask about their experience, technical skills, etc. Then a second interview where they prepare a technical walkthrough of a project they've worked on, where they can explain their technical decisions, we can ask questions, and generally get a feel for how competent they are. We prefer this approach over some sort of task because it means we see their approach to larger projects in terms of architecture, etc.

[Boydy]

Are you getting people to show you their code from previous jobs? Or are you expecting them all to have hobby projects too?

[SvN]

The candidates we interviewed either showed freelance projects or redacted code from previous jobs.

[Boydy]

Redacting code from most likely your current job (you're probably not going to remember or still have access to code from jobs before that) sounds like more hassle than just doing some sort of coding test.

What did this guy show in his interview?

[SvN]

Some sort of custom CRM he'd developed for his last contracting position. It was fine, but was basically a CRUD app with some simple PDF generation and automated emails. But there wasn't anything wrong with it, and so I decided to give him a shot.

We will be changing our strategy for future interviews.

[Lewis]

Can Boyd have a job?

[Spikey M]

My work has just hit the "restructure" klaxon. :moop:

[Lewis]

We have had two minor re-structures in the last twelve months, and every issue that was obvious to us but apparently not the people making it happen has come to pass. The lol thing is the latter group aren't some distant crowd who have no idea what we do and how we do it. They work very closely with us, and in some cases are still part of it; but it seems all sense and knowledge goes out the window when these things come around.

[Baz]

My work has just hit the "restructure" klaxon. :moop:

Mine went great. Happened in December, new role began in February, and will go up the pay scale in April. Madness.

[igor_balis]

A crud app? Hardly a ringing endorsement!!

[Foe]

We are overdue another rewire. I’ve seen 4 in ten years.

I’m getting binned at the next one I suspect.

[Ian]

Today I was sorting out some decades-old paperwork that came with the desk drawers I inherited at work and it was all worthwhile when I discovered somebody whose middle name on an application was He-Man.

[Raoul Duke]

Today I was sorting out some decades-old paperwork that came with the desk drawers I inherited at work and it was all worthwhile when I discovered somebody whose middle name on an application was He-Man.

You sure that wasn't their pronouns?

[Spikey M]

He's Marvels new wheelchair bound hero. "SuperInclusive".

[Jimmy Floyd]

Finally back, the final verdict.

Colombia: lovely people, clearly a bit of a shitbox in some respects and narcotraficantes are still the single defining thing about it.
Ecuador: like a more shambolic version of Colombia. Awful food, but Quito is beautiful.
Peru: so unsafe that we called off the visits. Rapidly falling into shit
Bolivia: a complete toilet, but at least they have some kind of visible national identity and believe in collective improvement. Morales has been yewtreed and exiled, so whether his dogshit socialist replacement can achieve this I don't know. Enormous signs of Chinese soft power everywhere here.
Paraguay: an unredeemable shithole that has no aspirations to improve itself and is very happy making its living off importing contraband goods from Brazil. Do not go there, it's a toilet and you'll need the toilet.
Uruguay: best country visited by a mile. Would go back on holiday if it wasn't as far away as the moon. Montevideo is beautiful and the open plains around it were a lovely break from the jungle bollocks everywhere else.
Chile: is currently quite nice, even if much of the landscape looks like Mars, but can see it very rapidly going to toilet in the next few years. They have a 36 year old socialist president and women are advised not to drive alone because of widespread carjack rapes. Good luck.

UK: you come back and you just marvel at how fucking well organised it is.

My travelling companion: old, old man who knows his stuff but is horrendous at using a computer and in the second week started belittling me quite a lot in front of the customers. I would say he felt threatened but he really shouldn't have done.

[Shindig]

Bloody Jehova's Witnesses turning up at the door as I'm about to start training someone. :moop: Also, there's a growing consensus among our HP's that Fibromyalgia is not a real disease. :uhoh:

[Lofty]

Give us a sample of his belittling japery.

[Spikey M]

Bloody Jehova's Witnesses turning up at the door as I'm about to start training someone. :moop: Also, there's a growing consensus among our HP's that Fibromyalgia is not a real disease. :uhoh:

I called that years ago. It's awfully convenient how only people that are also lazy cunts seem to have it.

[Shindig]

And yet, if a claimant has sent paperwork that moans about their pain (complete with a stairlift and bathroom hoist), I'm putting that down as the primary condition.


Currently, there are no specific laboratory or imaging tests for fibromyalgia.

Hmmmm ....

[Ian]

You sure that wasn't their pronouns?

Well this bit of paper was from 2003 and Team Twitter Mong have reliably confirmed that pronouns simply weren't invented until the woke made them up in the last few years.

[randomlegend]

What's an HP? Perhaps you have cause/effect reversed Spikey - perhaps people who have it are seen as lazy because their condition precludes them from being able to do much?

There are plenty of disease for which there is no confirmatory lab test or imaging test. Epilepsy, for example.

[Spikey M]

Nah, it's just a benefit con. Easy to fake, impossible to test. It's the same people that make Whiplash claims when the bus hits a pothole.

To clarify, I'm not saying it's entirely made up (although it might be), I'm just saying it's the leading benefit scam these days. Closely followed by depression and anxiety, but you don't get as much moolah for that.

[Shindig]

What's an HP? Perhaps you have cause/effect reversed Spikey - perhaps people who have it are seen as lazy because their condition precludes them from being able to do much?

There are plenty of disease for which there is no confirmatory lab test or imaging test. Epilepsy, for example.

Health professional. As for being easy to fake, it's an evidence based system so they need to con a handful of people. I don't doubt there's some conning going on but I also know legitimate claimants can be completely undone by the opinion of the bloke handling the assessment. Or the claimant not being able to provide great input/evidence. Or the health professional not being able to contact the specialists they need for further input.

So much of this process is in the lap of the Gods.

[Spikey M]

The number of legitimately struggling people I've seen that have been rejected is ridiculous too, granted. The problem is that the system is just so playable if you know what you're doing. Meanwhile, you get people at deaths door marked suitable for work because they play down how bad it is. It's immensely frustrating.

[Lewis]

Chile: is currently quite nice, even if much of the landscape looks like Mars, but can see it very rapidly going to toilet in the next few years. They have a 36 year old socialist president and women are advised not to drive alone because of widespread carjack rapes. Good luck.

The 77 year old was onto something.

[Kikó]

We are overdue another rewire. I’ve seen 4 in ten years.

I’m getting binned at the next one I suspect.

Have you ever felt safe at your job? Seems like you're always on one end of the scale from depression to immense pay rise?

[Ben]

That's how it works. It's similar for me, the underground workers earn well into six figures because it's in lieu of long-term (/any) job security.

[Lofty]

Has anyone been in their job/with their company long term? 15 years here, changed roles during though.

[Shindig]

Just the 10 for me.

[Spikey M]

4 for me. Planning to leave when my boy starts school and I don't need WFH and hours that revolve around the school run.

[Ben]

I'm at about 4.5 years currently, which is by far my longest tenure. I can see myself staying a lot longer unless company fortunes/attitudes drastically change.

[Kikó]

7 months. 😎

[Jimmy Floyd]

5 years, which in theory should take my holiday from 20 up to 22 days annually but I see this hasn't yet been reflected in the HR system.

[Spikey M]

20 days of holiday :D

[Jimmy Floyd]

I moaned about it in my last review, the MD said he wanted it raised but the South Africans wouldn't agree so it was out of his hands. I said good luck as it's not even slightly competitive in the current labour market.

[Giggles]

I’m coming up on 8 years now which I think is my longest.

[Ian]

I moaned about it in my last review, the MD said he wanted it raised but the South Africans wouldn't agree so it was out of his hands. I said good luck as it's not even slightly competitive in the current labour market.

You've probably covered this before and it's probably a stupid question but do you get the/any public holidays?

[Ben]

He must do, otherwise he won't be getting the legal minimum.

[Spikey M]

I'm not sure they'd be too concerned about that.

[Jimmy Floyd]

You've probably covered this before and it's probably a stupid question but do you get the/any public holidays?

Yes, all of them.

[Ian]

Well that's something. Wouldn't have surprised me at all if they were trying to wangle their way out of that somehow.

Still, as you've said you can do better elsewhere. Get them applications going. Your haunting tale of brushes with Nazi holdouts will tug the heartstrings of any potential employer I'm sure.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The boss (European one who I went to Spain with) phoned me this morning to welcome me back and says he reckons that the old fella deliberately made our South American trip have an overly punishing schedule to try and break me and show I wasn't up to the job.

As conspiracy theories go, it's right up there.

[Mike]

Has anyone been in their job/with their company long term? 15 years here, changed roles during though.

15 years here

[Yevrah]

The boss (European one who I went to Spain with) phoned me this morning to welcome me back and says he reckons that the old fella deliberately made our South American trip have an overly punishing schedule to try and break me and show I wasn't up to the job.

As conspiracy theories go, it's right up there.

That sounds like exactly the sort of shit a 'ready for the scrap heap' tosser would pull on an up and comer in the business, so I'd be inclined to believe it.

[Baz]

What’s the Arab’s take on it all?

[Ben]

Imagine the carnage if The Arab went with them. :drool:

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Arab went on a two week trip to Iraq and is now on holiday for a week. Part timer.

[Ian]

When does Barney get his chance, that's what I want to know.

[Lofty]

Barney would go sick after a half day visit to Slough based on Jim's insights.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There was a re-allocation of markets going on while I was away which I have missed, but all indications are he's getting Ireland.

I'm rumoured to be getting Central America which would be a genuinely awful result from every conceivable angle. We'll see what happens.

[Lofty]

Wasn't that what you were promised?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I was 'promised' (as much as these things mean anything in business) succeeding old man river in Central & South America when he retires. As far as I can see he'd be keeping all the big markets for now and I'd be getting the countries that make up the bottom part of the Concacaf hexagonal.

Old fella, MD and the guy from the photo with General Pinochet are all now having a meeting to run over the trip. Should I be seething that I'm not invited? Probably.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Next trip to Belize, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua then :drool:

[Giggles]

There is no way in this world you shouldn’t be job hunting and holding them to ransom.

[Lofty]

Yeah, by all accounts they don't have anyone under 70 to do the jobs you are doing/being promised and as already said multilingual candidates will lol at them when they see what package is offered. You have the advantage.

[Gray Fox]

Jimmy doesn't like to rock the boat. Unless the boat belongs to Barney. In which case you should definitely be leading him to believe the "£44k" is a thing of the past.

[Foe]

Have you ever felt safe at your job? Seems like you're always on one end of the scale from depression to immense pay rise?

Nah. The industry is so cyclic and leadership often just pivots as a way to show they’ve done something.

Now I’ve been promoted I’m into a tier which is quite broad and has a lot of very senior engineers or team leaders, of which I am neither. Performance wise I’ve always been assured I’m well thought of but I’m much more exposed now than I have been previously.

How they treated me the last 2 years doesn’t fill me with confidence they actually care. My (new) line manager who pleaded my case told me recently he was surprised it hadn’t been done previously and how much resistance he faced making it happen.

I’m not on 100k though, so guess I should be applying for underground roles.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Old fella, MD and the guy from the photo with General Pinochet are all now having a meeting to run over the trip. Should I be seething that I'm not invited? Probably.

After an hour they called me up. 82 year old vice president, 79 year old I went round with, the MD who is 50, and the 35 year old new sales director who, I think, really likes me.

First MD asks me how it was, etc. I said the time with the customers was great and I learned a lot from it, but the rest of it was really hard - body clock, lack of sleep and all the various other issues, especially once you get towards day 12 onwards. MD says yes, well we used to have a 2 week limit on trips, but we don't anymore.

Then he asked me how we can grow business in these countries. I gave a series of well thought-out answers around marketing, product development and so on.

Then he asked me how my Spanish was. I say I think it was fine but the old man (3 of these 4 people are called John FFS) would be in a better position to judge. The old man says yes, it was perfectly good. When I think about it, this verdict in itself is a massive fucking achievement given that I have never lived in a Spanish-speaking country and have no qualification in it higher than A level which was 17 years ago. A massive fucking achievement and I'm even better at French with the same restrictions, but anyway.

Then MD wants to talk about the future. He says are you willing to travel in the future. I said yes, I am, but only to a certain extent - I have a life here and don't want it to disrupt it a huge amount or have to make sacrifices. At this he becomes instantly rather flustered, and starts going 'Well, you know, if you want to make it in this industry, this company, you're going to have to travel.' I looked around and the 82 year old was nodding sagely. I said well, I know, and as I just said, I am very happy to travel as long as it's manageable. I then started listing things - my parents are here and I want to do things with my dad before he gets old, my sister lives nearby and I spend time with her, I'm not in a relationship at the moment but I might want to be in the future. He said 'You're not married, though', and started listing things he had to give up earlier in his career to travel for work - golf club memberships and tennis club memberships. Seething to fuck inside, I said 'No, I'm not married'. What I didn't do was mention my side career as a cricket umpire, which is very important to me but I'm well aware won't play well with these types and I suspect the golf/tennis mentions were an attempt to satirise/belittle this.

MD then turned to 79 year old and asked him how many weeks a year it was to cover Latin American markets. He said ten weeks. MD turned back to me and said 'There you go, ten weeks'. Ten weeks a year sounds a fuckton to me. I said right.

Then, somewhat out of the blue, the 79 year old asked him about business class travel and got lolled out of the fucking building. Having just spent 9 hours on company time with a Colombian child clambering over my cramped airline seat as I tried to sleep, I didn't really see the funny side personally.

The MD then said right, in that case, your next trip (also with the 79 year old) will be to central America in May/June and then to Guyana and the Caribbean in September/October. I said right, ok. This all came as a shock so couldn't respond logically while taking it in.

He said you're going to get a few of 79 year old's markets, which he wouldn't specify but I suspect it will be the ones that currently perform poorly under the 79 year old i.e. Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua, possibly Jamaica if I want to complete the set of high murder rates. He said we'll make you a new contract before 1 April to put you on salary plus commission. I said ok.

I was starting to feel quite rubbish at this point but, call me weak or whatever, in front of those 4 people I couldn't stop and say 'fuck you pay me'. I just couldn't, and the MD's attitude and the fact that he insisted on doing it in front of all of these other people really put me off both him and the prospects of putting my point across. Instead, I left the room, went downstairs feeling horrible, and waited for the 35 year old sales director to come back. When he did, I went in and said to him 'I want a meeting with you on Monday, because there are quite a few things I wasn't comfortable saying up there in that environment with those people'. He said of course.

I have three options: a) meekly go along with them, b) make a bit of a fuss, c) blow the whole thing up and hold them explicitly to ransom. I am very well practised in a) but just at the moment, I don't know what it is, maybe it's the jet lag, but I'm feeling closer to c).

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Next trip to Belize, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua then :drool:

It's happening.

[Kikó]

Have a think about what you want Jimmy (salary, lifestyle etc) and think about what you would accept as a minimum. Also think about where else would benefit from your skills and put yourself out there, even if it's a feeler.

If you don't know what you want, it's much easier to be bullied out of it. You clearly have a valued skillset that they don't want to lose. I'd also demand to set the timetable next time so it's not ridiculous early morning flights.

[Ian]

Definitely don't do a) Jimmy, for fuck's sake, they're clearly taking the piss. They might genuinely not think they are, because they're thick and clearly indoctrinated by what they think the job requires, but they are. 'Well, you know, if you want to make it in this industry, this company' is a massive red flag and a phrase clearly designed to make you feel like you're at fault for not wanting to bin off a fifth of your year for not enough reward. At least have a look at what you might get elsewhere, and even if you'd rather stay where you are for whatever the reasons may be at least use that (plus the fact that you know the company, the customers, etc) to wangle yourself a better deal.

They're taking you for a ride.

And 'You're not married, though', this attitude just winds me up whenever people use their families/your lack of one to wheedle you into or themselves out of doing something.

[Spikey M]

Jimmy, my wife's Uncle - another one, not Keith - used to work for a pharmaceutical company selling drugs to new markets and regularly traveled to Asia and the Middle East. Doesn't speak a word of the lingo. I don't know what he was earning, but he retired at 50, has bought his 3 children a house each and drives a top-spec BMW.

Obviously a different market, but I think it highlights quite how majorly you are being "mugged off" here.

[Giggles]

You’ve a lot to offer by the sounds of all you’ve said here. I’d do any of them and start looking.

[Jimmy Floyd]

And 'You're not married, though', this attitude just winds me up whenever people use their families/your lack of one to wheedle you into or themselves out of doing something.

Yeah, this really winds me up too, and possibly has an extra needle of irritation in my case.

Thanks for the advice all, posting on here really helps sometimes.

[Giggles]

Biggest cliche of all time but ‘work to live, not live to work’ is correct all the same. It’s no business of theirs if you’re single, married, or whatever. No job should rely heavily on any home situation.

[randomlegend]

Jimmy, my wife's Uncle - another one, not Keith - used to work for a pharmaceutical company selling drugs to new markets and regularly traveled to Asia and the Middle East. Doesn't speak a word of the lingo. I don't know what he was earning, but he retired at 50, has bought his 3 children a house each and drives a top-spec BMW.

Obviously a different market, but I think it highlights quite how majorly you are being "mugged off" here.

One of my uncles used to commute weekly to Abu Dhabi. Night flight Sunday night, work through the week, night flight back Friday night. Some sort of engineering consultancy work or something.

[Raoul Duke]

There's no way this doesn't end up with you somehow ending up managing Paraguay for an unlikely tilt at the 2034 World Cup :drool:

My advice would be to make sure you know what your number is - make sure you don't blink first in the negotiation (get used to some uncountable silences). Whoever says a number first loses. You clearly passed the "interview" and it's now down to the details. It sounds like you hold a lot of cards as they're clearly succession planning (20 years too late).

[Jimmy Floyd]

The problem is, without wanting to appall my mother by talking about money, I'm currently on £35k. To do three of this kind of trip a year I'd want minimum £50k plus commission. Even that might be low, I don't know. The chances of them putting me on that are, I reckon, fucking zero.

I'd be perfectly happy carrying on as I am as basically an account manager for what I'm on now, but under the South Africans that doesn't seem to be on the table, I think if you start introducing this kind of long range travel to shithole countries it turns into a completely different gig.

[Baz]

Anyway of finding out what the 2 people you travelled with are on?

[Giggles]

No matter what they offer you, get another job.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The European sales manager brings in around £8k a month, as far as my best intelligence has it. Not sure what this old fella is on but I bet he's underpaid as he's an old Yorkshireman with a frugal attitude to expenses. The Arab's dad, who does the MENA countries, is said to bring in about £25k a month. These are all mostly commission - somehow I doubt El Salvador is going to generate the kind of commission that Spain, France and Germany do.

The Arab is on only very slightly more than me (no commission) for managing a market that makes £1 million a year in sales, or about 5% of our turnover, and spending 6 weeks a year bumming round Iraq. He's very unhappy about this but has no choice until he's served out his 5 year British visa tied to the company, they have him utterly over a barrel until that point.

[Shindig]

Couldn't he just elbow them to death?

[Lofty]

Do you want to earn more money Jim or is it more that you feel you should be paid more for the shit show they want you to do? You'd breeze into plenty of 35-40k roles with less hassle and proper fluffy modern corporate cultures.

[Raoul Duke]

The problem is, without wanting to appall my mother by talking about money, I'm currently on £35k. To do three of this kind of trip a year I'd want minimum £50k plus commission. Even that might be low, I don't know. The chances of them putting me on that are, I reckon, fucking zero.

I'd be perfectly happy carrying on as I am as basically an account manager for what I'm on now, but under the South Africans that doesn't seem to be on the table, I think if you start introducing this kind of long range travel to shithole countries it turns into a completely different gig.

Sounds quite similar to Magic's job in that he's a sales guy who has to travel around shithole countries. But he's paid (a lot?) more than that from what I remember.

£35k in London for that level of work, plus language skills, is absolute banter money though

[Ben]

£50k + commission sounds low as fuck for that travel itinerary to me, unless the percentage is good enough to net you at least a few more grand a month.

Travelling might look cool on Instagram but travelling to work is a right cunt on.

[Shindig]

He might enjoy it more if he goes solo but his bosses love to tag along.

[Ben]

I suppose you could take a camera with you and be a more sophisticated and less pervy version of Bald and Bankrupt and make millions as an unlikely YouTube star.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Do you want to earn more money Jim or is it more that you feel you should be paid more for the shit show they want you to do? You'd breeze into plenty of 35-40k roles with less hassle and proper fluffy modern corporate cultures.

I value a work-life balance, so it's basically being bought off to do all that shit.

[Foe]

You definitely need to do some research.

An extra 3-5k to go travelling around the world without any time in lieu to pretty tough countries seems completely out of touch with reality.

I’d get yourself on indeed or wherever and start seeing what other jobs you’ve got transferable skills for. Sounds like you’d be suited to procurement or contract management roles in BIG INDUSTRY.

[Yevrah]

I'm not in Jim's industry, but you could come and work for my company as almost anything in sales for more than £35k, you wouldn't have to travel half way around the World to earn it either.

In my experience there are two types of employers when it comes to the package, those that are reasonable and even proactive about salary and those that are not. Your lot seem to fall squarely in the latter camp and if they do, they won't change.

[Boydy]

Get the old CV/linkedin dusted off and start firing off a few applications and having some conversations with recruiters. Even if not to actually move on but just to get an idea of the market and what you could be getting.

[Lofty]

I value a work-life balance, so it's basically being bought off to do all that shit.

Change jobs then. You would get a far better work life balance for the same if not better renumeration elsewhere, I guarantee it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Barely slept last night, whether because of jet lag or stress or both I don't know, but it's a bad way to start my 27th consecutive working day. I think the boat is going to have to be rocked at last.

[Luke Emia]

Barely slept last night, whether because of jet lag or stress or both I don't know, but it's a bad way to start my 27th consecutive working day. I think the boat is going to have to be rocked at last.

The wage you are on for London surprises me to be honest. Effectively working in a sale type role I can’t see that anything less than 50/60k should be acceptable and if you went elsewhere I’d expect something in that line. Hell you can earn that in Norfolk as an employee mortgage broker so fuck knows what they earn in London.

What I would say is that I worked for a firm very similar to the one you currently work for. It was all about doing free overtime, wages were screwed down as much as possible and everything was always done with a nod and a wink. “Next year will be your year.” It never fucking was.

[Shindig]

And you can tell the old bastards are cooking the books. That little industry under the radar with all that money getting pocketed. The backhanders being a cheap alternative to paying you every week.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Had a chat with the Indian guy in the office, he thinks exactly the same as me about all this but god bless him he's even more of a doormat than me. He recalled the time when he was on a work trip in India over a British bank holiday weekend (which wasn't a BH in India), came back and asked for the bank holiday back which he'd been working through. The company said sorry no, bank holidays apply in the country you're working in at the time.

He also revealed that he'd once been in a meeting where bosses had repeatedly cited my unmarried status as a good opportunity to get me on the road. I mean, lol.

[Shindig]

Sounds like you're in the market for a sham marriage.

[Kikó]

:D that's fucking cheeky.

They're proper pisstakers.