Wiggins, cheat or not?

[Yevrah]

Well?

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Yep.

He should just come out and hold his hands up.

[SvN]

They're all at it.

[phonics]

He's a cyclist...

[Disco]

Technically no, morally yes. Like basically any sports person you can think of.

[-james-]

Is there any evidence to say that he is, aside from "he's a cyclist lol"?

[Byron]

When everyone cheats, no one cheats.

[Spikey M]

They all are.

[niko_cee]

Neither technically, nor morally. It's professional sport. Taking part is for amateurs.

[Kikó]

All high level sportsman or cheating to some extent. It's better that you don't be so morally twatty about it because when it comes out that the marginal gains are actually drug gains you're going to look a dick.

[Disco]

If he wasn't Paul Weller on a bike he'd have been labelled a cheating Frenchie/Iti/Spaniard long ago.

Obtaining PEDs by overplaying your 'asthma' goes against the spirit of anti-doping rules even if it is technically allowed.

[randomlegend]

The thing I find hard to understand is how asthma medications are actually performance enhancing beyond treating your asthma.

I didn't think bronchodilators did anything unless you had bronchoconstriction (maybe I'm wrong) and I definitely don't see how inhaled steroids are going to be of any benefit whatsoever. They aren't anabolic steroids, they don't big you small bits and big muscles. If anything I'd have thought they'd make you worse.

[Shindig]

As an asthmatic that's used steroid inhalers, they do have a benefit. There's not a lot of steroid to them but they sit on the lungs and, surprise, make them stronger. I used to use them before going to bed to stop me coughing during the night.

[randomlegend]

Shindig

Sorry I didn't explain myself very well.

Obviously inhaled steroids help your breathing if you actually have asthma. But they work by reducing inflammation. If your airways aren't inflamed (i.e. you don't have asthma) then I don't understand by what mechanism they are going to be beneficial. If you do, then they can only take the inflammation away and at best get you back to what you'd be like if you didn't have asthma.

[ItalAussie]

It seems like an abuse of the therapeutic usage exemptions. Dodgy as hell, but probably alright by the letter of the law (depending on the specific way in which abuse of that rule is defined).

If Sky hadn't ridden that high horse so hard, it probably wouldn't be as big a deal. But we spent half a decade watching the "plucky underdog Brits honourably sticking it to the nasty, cheating foreigners" narrative, and they got money from the UK government, so you can understand people taking some umbrage.

[Lewis]

He doesn't really have asthma, so these things help to increase airflow into (around?) his lungs, and, as an anti-inflammatory, have obvious benefits for anyone doing sustained high-intensity exercise.

[randomlegend]

He doesn't really have asthma, so these things help to increase airflow into (around?) his lungs

It doesn't work like that. If you don't have asthma, and so you don't have constricted bronchi (airways), taking a bronchodilator (like salbumatol) does absolutely nothing. It won't make your airways SUPER BIG so you can do SUPER BREATHING.

A bit of evidence to back that up:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21083771

There's some evidence that it's mildly anabolic (muscle building) in massive doses, but realistically you'd need to be taking it orally to get enough systemic absorption to have that effect. Perhaps the swindle is taking it orally and then claiming it's inhaled if you get caught out, but I would have thought the difference in levels would be fairly fucking obvious.


as an anti-inflammatory, have obvious benefits for anyone doing sustained high-intensity exercise.

If you managed to inhale enough corticosteroids to absorb enough systemically to have an effect, I'm pretty sure the negatives would massively outweigh any benefits. Corticosteroids might reduce inflammation but they have about a million other effects which you absolutely would not want as a competitive athlete.

EDIT: There seems to be some (poor quality, anecdotal) evidence that short courses of high dose steroids can be beneficial during training. If there's evidence he's taken oral steroids then yeah, probably cheating. I'd be absolutely stunned if you can get enough systemic absorption from inhaled steroids to have those effects though - I doubt you could do it if you breathed nothing else all day.

[randomlegend]

It seems like an abuse of the therapeutic usage exemptions. Dodgy as hell, but probably alright by the letter of the law (depending on the specific way in which abuse of that rule is defined).

If Sky hadn't ridden that high horse so hard, it probably wouldn't be as big a deal. But we spent half a decade watching the "honourable Brits taking on the nasty, cheating foreigners" narrative, and they got money from the UK government, so you can understand people taking some umbrage.

From what I've read you don't even need a TUE for salbutamol provided you are taking less than the dose limit they set.

[ItalAussie]

Yeah, I imagine Sky were very careful to ensure that they went right up to the line, but not across it.

[randomlegend]

Which would have absolutely no beneficial effect whatsoever, other than returning someone with actual asthma to baseline (at the absolute best).

[Lewis]

I stand corrected. Still, maybe asthmatics should just get lost. Shit out, lads. Unlucky.

[randomlegend]

I'm loving how sure Ital is that British cycling are cheats after he defended this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KCTlw7CbATg/U9FMyiHT_II/AAAAAAAAANc/oo3eyLSYQas/s1600/vlcsnap-2014-07-17-18h46m19s69.png

from an Aussie.

[Yevrah]

I don't know the answer to the asthma thing either, but it sounds similar to a gluten free diet not turning you into superman if you're not a coeliac.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

It's well documented that Mark Henry was sucking inhalers dry in his WWE days.

Without them he was only above average strength.

[Shindig]

Maria Sharapova got her inhalers from a long-time family doctor.

[Mike]

They’d all be welcomed to my drugs friendly Olympic alternative.

[Giggles]

He's an upstanding British. Drugs must ave got planted by a dirty facking forrin innit. Oi oi oi oi waaaaar.

[Magic]

Hands up who went to medical college!

[Lewis]

This (https://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics/ewan-mackenna-mo-farah-has-more-questions-to-answer-than-gold-medals-and-the-facts-are-stacking-up-against-him-36712511.html) Mick puts all of Mo Farah's shite in one place, and it sounds a bit iffy.

[Kikó]

He's guilty just like Radcliffe was.

[John]

If Farah gets biffed it'll piss on so many people's chips he'll have to go into hiding.

[Yevrah]

I'm halfway through that and it's an interesting read.

If he gets done it'll either lead to an end of "our plucky boys and girls would never cheat" (which would be nice), or more likely a revisionist approach to his nationality with him being labelled as the "Somalian born athlete" from that point onward.

[Lewis]

'Mohamed - formerly "Mo" - Farah has today been stripped of his...'

[Lewis]

Yes. His council house.

[Ian]

Chris Froome awarded 2011 Vuelta a Espana as Juan Jose Cobo stripped of title (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/49026538)

"It retrospectively makes him Britain's first Grand Tour winner - Sir Bradley Wiggins had held the honour after his 2012 Tour de France victory."

Cycling. :drool:

[Spikey M]

Can't wait until they all get stripped of everything and I win all the awards retrospectively for breaking my own personal best back when I used to cycle to work. Drug free. :cool:

[Ian]

Or they just go "fuck it" and let them all take what they want and make it a proper freakshow.

You never know, that might even make it worth watching.

[Yevrah]

Why is cycling, seemingly more than any other sport, absolutely full of drug cheats? Is the testing 8 years behind the dodgy doctor curve? Do they just not care?

Or is it the other way around and drugs are just as rife everywhere else, but cycling are doing much much more to root it out?

[niko_cee]

It's both.

Cycling, historically, as a sport lends itself to chemical assistance (first booze, then amphetamines, then more modern PEDs). It is ridiculously physically demanding, so any 'marginal gains' are amplified by the intensity and duration of the events - both in terms of benefits from training and one off on the day hits (Landis, the greatest single ride of all time). It's heartland has, historically, been in nations where cheating is pretty much par for the course in everything, no offence Beneluxers. I do think they now do a lot more than most sports to try and get on top of it, but the range of things to try and cover is probably insurmountable - and the range of what is and what isn't allowed is far from simple. Spikey would probably be stripped of his titles for having taken some sudafed before riding to work one day. The biological passport is quite a good idea, I think. I don't believe Sky, as they were, were systematically cheating in the way teams did in the 1990/2000s, but they were systematically gaining advantages through legally abusive practices (TUEs etc).

[Ian]

Spikey being outed as a cheat and a disgrace before he's even been awarded his titles.

Fuck's sake.

[Spikey M]

Atleast I'm up there with the best of them.

[randomlegend]

Why is cycling, seemingly more than any other sport, absolutely full of drug cheats? Is the testing 8 years behind the dodgy doctor curve? Do they just not care?

Or is it the other way around and drugs are just as rife everywhere else, but cycling are doing much much more to root it out?



I would guess it's that cycling is almost purely a test of physical endurance/strength/speed etc. so you stand to gain a lot more from drugs than you can in sports which rely equally (or more) on tactics or technique.

You could give Marouanne Fellaini steroids til his nuts were the size of raisins but still won't be Cristiano Ronaldo.

[randomlegend]

Oh and the idea of cheating with asthma inhalers is still nonsense.

[Ian]

You could give Marouanne Fellaini steroids til his nuts were the size of raisins but still won't be Cristiano Ronaldo.

Why would he want to lessen his ability anyway? :confused:

[randomlegend]

Ah sorry, got the names the wrong way round.

:rave:

[Pepe]

Why is cycling, seemingly more than any other sport, absolutely full of drug cheats? Is the testing 8 years behind the dodgy doctor curve? Do they just not care?

Or is it the other way around and drugs are just as rife everywhere else, but cycling are doing much much more to root it out?

I'd say that it is the latter.

Endurance athletes will benefit more from it, so cycling is a prime candidate, but there is no way that people running the marathon, for example, are not as likely to cheat. As for 'technique' sports like football, it might be less beneficial, but knowing the state of affairs, does anyone really think that half of those players/teams/owners/associations are not looking for any advantage they can get?

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Can we use the 'fund' to get Pepe on the gear?

Tour de France winner 2020.

[SvN]

About £440 in the kitty at the moment. What will that get us?

[Spikey M]

A decent course of roids and some Lemsip.

[Pepe]

I'm in.

[Pepe]

The US cycling federation does a little bit of testing in amateur races and 'Masters' racers are the biggest cheats by a wide margin. :harold:

[Kikó]

Cycling is just tested more than other sports. Tennis, Football, Rugby are all doping in one way or another but we don't care as much.

Or actually Federer, Nadal and Djokovic are suddenly much better at recovery now they are 38,33,32 than they were years ago.

[Lewis]

You can dope a reasonable amount and remain within the allowed limits. I suspect rugby players do that. Cycling, like Olympic weightlifting which is also absolutely laughable for people being stripped of awards, is just mentally demanding, so I think people have to take the piss or just drop out.

[Queenslander]

AFL players would still be our biggest dopers.

[niko_cee]

Will be lol beyond belief if Alaphillipe turns out to be on the juice.

[Pepe]

Sagan being caught would kill the sport, for a few years at least.

[Shindig]

20 years from now Andy Murray will be collecting his retrospective grand slams and Mahow will still be furious.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

He's Scottish...

[Pepe]

This Tour is turning out to be quite tasty. :drool:

[Lewis]

You can dope a reasonable amount and remain within the allowed limits. I suspect rugby players do that. Cycling, like Olympic weightlifting which is also absolutely laughable for people being stripped of awards, is just mentally demanding, so I think people have to take the piss or just drop out.

lol at that 94 kg field getting wiped out (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weightlifting_at_the_2012_Summer_Olympics#Notes). 2008 had similar revisions, and I imagine 2016 will at some point. Ilya Ilyin being papped was arguably the biggest sport story nobody cares about, since he was the absolute don of the sport. He's on the comeback trail now and progressing suspiciously quickly for 2020.

[Disco]

I want some of whatever Mark Cavendish must be on.

(This is now the de facto cycling thread btw, you can blame the terrible search function)

[Shindig]

Top Gear ruined his wife for me. "Peta, 23 from Essex."

[niko_cee]

Looking at Cav today, he does seem very, what's the term, hench?

I guess his legs have probably always been insane but they looked Greipel-esque.

[niko_cee]

No, not Greipel, that German track cyclist/sprinter who's name I've probably never actually known.

Google tells me Robert Forstermann.

[Boydy]

1412799126857785354

:cab:

[Shindig]

Tesco Value Tyson Fury.

[Baz]

Biggest drug cheat going is Djokovic

[Lewis]

Is it possible that this American sprinter actually failed an in-house test and they're using weed an as excuse for a shorter ban? Dead parent or not, who smokes weed a month before the Olympics?

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Add in the fact that they're not taking her to Tokyo despite the ban ending before it actually starts too.

[Pepe]

I'm surprised to see Cavendish winning races. I thought that he was done. Then again, Quickstep hired him for a reason. Also, this year's roster is weak as fuck.

[Disco]

Several sprinters went out to crashes on the first week too, or like Sagan are still in it but not able to challenge for stages.

[Don]

Is it possible that this American sprinter actually failed an in-house test and they're using weed an as excuse for a shorter ban? Dead parent or not, who smokes weed a month before the Olympics?

She looks and sounds like she was raised on pure 'erbs tbf.

[niko_cee]

I'm surprised to see Cavendish winning races. I thought that he was done. Then again, Quickstep hired him for a reason. Also, this year's roster is weak as fuck.

Yeah, he's definitely benefiting from taking over Bennett's lead-out/role and the fact that the sprint field is both a bit weak and has been decimated thus far. Still, he still has to win the races and it's impressive. Wonder if he'll call it a day if he wins in Paris?

[randomlegend]

Is it possible that this American sprinter actually failed an in-house test and they're using weed an as excuse for a shorter ban? Dead parent or not, who smokes weed a month before the Olympics?

Weren't Phelps and Lochte always at it?

[niko_cee]

Cav's picked a bad year (to the extent that's possible) to register probably one of the greatest sporting achievements ever by a Briton - what with Sir Waistcoat and Co and then all the Olympic Horse Ticklers bound to overshadow him in the wider public consciousness.

[Shindig]

Even if he won the tour, people wouldn't bat an eyelid.

You know what gets me? They never retroactively awarded Armstrong's wins to someone else.

2005: Ivan Basso
2004: Andreas Kloden
2003: Jan Ullrich
2002: Joseba Beloki
2001: Jan Ullrich
2000: Jan Ullrich
1999: Alex Zulle

Would've given Jan Ullrich four tour wins in total.


However, the race organisers ASO decided not to reallocate the titles won in those years, in recognition of the historic doping problem in the sport at that time - Ullrich himself having been banned for a doping violation. Ullrich, therefore, has a single Tour victory to his name.

Oh. :D

[Jimmy Floyd]

Cycling is a remainer sport, no chance of cutting through in the post Brexit era.

Also he's not British.

[niko_cee]

Only to the extent that it has siphoned off all the golf wankers from their Big Bertha drivers to their carbon forks and aero bars.

I suppose a certain level of europhilia is required being as everything has to be done in French (like with cheffing).

[Disco]

We're the wrong side of an Olympics for cycling to be in vogue again, and probably 5 years too late for the public to care. Did anyone care that Geraint Thomas won it or even Frome all those times?

[niko_cee]

I think Thomas registered but no one ever really liked the Kenyan, which was harsh on him, but probably down to his wife.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Only to the extent that it has siphoned off all the golf wankers from their Big Bertha drivers to their carbon forks and aero bars.

Golf is a lot more leavey, I'm not sure there's a huge amount of crossover there, even if the 'spend a living wage on equipment and you will still be shit' theme is the same.

Tennis is the real chin-stroker. If I could get into the local tennis club without being shot dead I'd love to do an anthropological study of the inhabitants.

[Lewis]

Day-to-day tennis is remain, and then the better off leavers come out of the woodwork for Wimbledon because they can frame it with reference to things they understand (like how the remain bores are doing with England now).

[Disco]

My dad is exactly like that, loves following any of the (suitably white) Brits at Wimbledon every year.

[Lofty]

Was Henman the last genuine English hope at Wimbledon? Not counting the imports, feels a bit like 'Irish' footballers.

[Shindig]

I'm going to say yes. He had a run of four semi finals in five years. Lost to Sampras twice, Ivanisevic and Hewitt. All eventual winners. Two French Open semi finals on top of that. Nobody's come close.

[niko_cee]

Golf is a lot more leavey

Aye, but only as a factor of the age of the demographic, cycling having harvested the last 10 years worth of 30-40 year olds who golf might have otherwise trapped.

[Yevrah]

Was Henman the last genuine English hope at Wimbledon? Not counting the imports, feels a bit like 'Irish' footballers.

Yeah, he would have beaten Ivanisevic too if the rain hadn't come.

[Pepe]

Cycling definitely wanker sport over here, but I am surprised to know that it is also like that in the UK. In France, it seems to be as working class as it comes.

[Spikey M]

Our roads are far more twisting, turning and narrow than yours. Cyclists are the enemy of every driver in the country.

[Disco]

Anyone else watching today? Curious to see if Pogachar has enough chamber time to claw back a couple of minutes.

[niko_cee]

I'm hoping Thomas can cling on to make the final tt interesting, but I doubt he will.

[Pepe]

Probably not today based on the route. Tomorrow more likely.

[Disco]

I'm hoping Thomas can cling on to make the final tt interesting, but I doubt he will.

He was already too far back I think and lost a bit more today. Hautacam tomorrow, it would be nice to see another 96 or 00 to make the final TT interesting but I suspect Vingegaard will have enough to shadow Pogachar until the end.

[Pepe]

Vingergaard looking like he won't falter. Summit finish tomorrow though, so that is Pogacar's last chance. My guess is that Thomas loses more time tomorrow.

[niko_cee]

Yeah, it was never likely for Thomas. Still, what looks like a solid podium finish is pretty good for him. What is Vingegard like as a time triallist? I heard some commentary the other day suggesting he was better than Pogacar, but don't know if that was accurate.

UAE/Pogacar need to pull the sort of stage Sky and Froome managed in the Giro a few years ago tomorrow.

[Disco]

If they manage that sort of preparation then at least George Bennet isn't likely to be as scathing as he was then.

[niko_cee]

Impressive ride by Vinegar'd and Jumbo Visma generally. When was the last time a team took both green and yellow jerseys?

[Disco]

I think it might go back to the very clean Telekom in 96/97. Hushovd and Evans must have been close for BMC but I think they were a year or so apart, the Lance years were all won by the various Aussies and then Sagan dominated the Sky era.

[Disco]

Fastest average speed in tour history this year apparently (previous fastest was 2005), could of course be down to the changing profile of the race but it's still pretty lol considering how they dawdled through Denmark at the start.