2018 Oscars

[Panda Bear]

Nice touch letting Beatty and Dunaway present Best Picture again.

Frances McDormand is something else.

[Panda Bear]

"Great thread, Panda. Lots of efforts."

[Panda Bear]

Oh shit, she said "inclusion rider", not "inclusion writer".

Just found out that the former is a diversity clause for the composition of the cast and crew.

[Giggles]

Are they all in black and metoo-ing the shit out of it? I didn't think they could possibly make the Oscars more bollocks but that would manage it.

[niko_cee]

I've not seen that Shape of Water film, but every clip of it I see on the news reminds me of Bioshock.

[Magic]

I've not seen that Shape of Water film, but every clip of it I see on the news reminds me of Bioshock.

Interesting and pioneering opinion.

[phonics]

I've not seen that Shape of Water film, but every clip of it I see on the news reminds me of Bioshock.

Even nicked the font.

[Pleb]

https://youtu.be/Mzsl9hcTQkw

Highlight of the ceremony.

[phonics]

Nothing Jimmy Kimmel has ever done can be described as a highlight.

[Henry]

The MeToo stuff is tiresome, and a witchhunt.

If there's anyone suffering in chains of oppression, it isn't Hollywood actresses.

[Magic]

The MeToo stuff is tiresome, and a witchhunt.

If there's anyone suffering in chains of oppression, it isn't white women.

Rephrased for you.

[phonics]

The MeToo stuff is tiresome, and a witchhunt.

If there's anyone suffering in chains of oppression, it isn't Hollywood actresses.

Fuck off Hennorz.

[Lewis]

Rephrased for you.

I can think of one.

[Giggles]

Fuck off Hennorz.

He has it absolutely nailed.

[phonics]

He has it absolutely nailed.

Fuck off Giggles.

[Giggles]

Fuck off Giggles.

You've turned in to some fucking wet blanket. Talk about a snowflake.

[niko_cee]

Many of the me too mob (or perhaps the proto-me too mob) will be gutted when it turns out being attractive is no longer the main hiring requirement or avenue into the industry.

[phonics]

The Weinstein company, the biggest Oscar lobbyist, was arranging actresses to get raped by the boss systematically. The idea that massive amounts of sexual harassment doesn't happen in an industry primiarly fueled by the most attractive people in the world is madness.

[niko_cee]

I have no idea how those two statements are meant to relate to each other.

And have (or are) any of these rapes ever been (going to be) proved? Does it not demean the term slightly if the apparent lack of consent is doing something you don't like, but do voluntarily, albeit with an ulterior motive?

[Giggles]

A load of them rode their way to the top and now have a bandwagon to jump on to justify it, while also keeping themselves relevant.
Yes investigate the real ones but this limp 'look at my black dress' bullshit belittles anyone that did suffer abuse.

[Panda Bear]

Unlike witch hunts, some of these accused men are actually guilty of sexual harrassment, sexual assault, or rape. (Some others of these accused men are guilty of being dicks to women, which isn't a legal crime.)

The rate at which false accusations are made for sexual assault is between 2-6% across the UK, Europe, Canada and the USA. The rate at which false accusations are made for other crimes in those countries is--wait for it--between 2-6%, and yet it seems to only be victims of sexual assault who get met with so much skepticism.

Yes, it is bad that there have been instances where men have been wrongfully accused and suffered major repercussions in their lives. Yes, people should be presumed innocent in the eyes of the law.

But by and large, movements like #MeToo are good because:
1) people who have been bastards for ages are being outed for being bastards; and
2) people in positions of power are being forced to consider the consequences of their actions because there are finally consequences.

[Magic]

I can think of one.

:henn0rz:

[phonics]

A load of them rode their way to the top and now have a bandwagon to jump on to justify it, while also keeping themselves relevant.
Yes investigate the real ones but this limp 'look at my black dress' bullshit belittles anyone that did suffer abuse.

That you think most of the successful ones probably slept their way to the top to get anywhere kind of proves the point of it...

[Giggles]

That you think most of the successful ones had to sleep their way to the top to get anywhere kind of proves the point of it...

No I don't. The ones that didn't are only using it to keep their faces on screen and in magazines though.

[Lewis]

It probably topped out with that Aziz Ansari story attempting to equate him being a whopper with violent bum rape.

[phonics]

I have no idea how those two statements are meant to relate to each other.

And have (or are) any of these rapes ever been (going to be) proved? Does it not demean the term slightly if the apparent lack of consent is doing something you don't like, but do voluntarily, albeit with an ulterior motive?

IIRC It's a mix of statutory limits due to time passed and contracts they've signed to keep schtum.

[phonics]

No I don't. The ones that didn't are only using it to keep their faces on screen and in magazines though.

Yeah where would Helen Mirren be without MeToo. Where would all the people giving speeches for winning an Oscar be without MeToo.

[Panda Bear]

niko_cee, Giggles: brush up on what "coercion" means.

[phonics]

It probably topped out with that Aziz Ansari story attempting to equate him being a whopper with violent bum rape.

That was an awful piece called out immediately by most people...

[Lewis]

I think 'most people' is overdoing it, but the fact that someone saw fit to publish it was illustrative of the climate.

[phonics]

TBH, I understand Giggles reaction as he lacks basic empathy. However, Hennorz who claims to be a man of the people and convinced systemic racism exists can get fucked.

[phonics]

I think 'most people' is overdoing it, but the fact that someone saw fit to publish it was illustrative of the climate.

That someone saw fit to publish at famous website babe.org.

[Magic]

TBH, I understand Giggles reaction as he lacks basic empathy. However, Hennorz who claims to be a man of the ethnics and convinced systemic racism exists can get fucked.

Rephrased for you.

[Magic]

let's not forget Henn0rz's deafening silence post-truth and denial pre-truth of the rape gangs. He's a fucking scumbag.

[niko_cee]

niko_cee, Giggles: brush up on what "coercion" means.

I understand the point, but I tend to think, by and large, it was the opposite of proper duress - these victims weren't being threatened with ruination (although I'm sure some were) they were being promised the earth in return for their (in)voluntary act(s). Unless the thing you are doing is actually a crime (and sex isn't) then being made a good offer to do it doesn't amount to duress in any sense of the word.

[phonics]

I think there's no many levels of sleaze I'm not sure what to point to.

I could point to the straight-up rapes, the 'i'll give you a job if...' down to the 'I've outbid everyone for your film and if you ever want to see it made, you have to put a sex scene in it and get your tits out' a la Salma Hayek.

There's literally every type of harassment, not just one and this is just ONE PERSON IN THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY. I think it was Farrow who had bags of cocaine placed into her bag (while in flight) and then customs did a 'random check' on her on the way out. She was told it could easily go away. These people are monsters.

It's well known that Brian Singer and friends take male child actors to their mansions and rape them. But nothing is done about it. It's widespread and it's fucking dangerous but no-one pays attention because its successful attractive women complaining and what have they got to moan about?

[Lewis]

'I'll give you a job if...' isn't 'straight-up rape'. You can always not be an actress if that is the cost.

[phonics]

If your parents moved across the country and have been homeschooling you since 13 while you go from audition to audition because an agent once told them you have a shot and you're 24. How much of a choice do you really have?

As many actors/actresses do it out of forceful parenting as do it for the love of the stage.

(not saying that specific example is rape in the criminal sense but you know what I'm getting at)

[Magic]

I love how phonics always tries to provide insight in to things he has no knowledge or experience of. Sweet.

[phonics]

I love how phonics always tries to provide insight in to things he has no knowledge or experience of. Sweet.

Guy on the left was in my class

https://i.imgur.com/ELGaKt5.png

Michael Douglas graduated from my school and spoke at my graduation. Most of the kids I went to school with belong to some of the most powerful families on the planet. You hear things and then your beliefs get confirmed by reports later in life. You said the same thing about the Kim Jong Un stuff that I mentioned, that was exactly on the money.

[Magic]

:D

Oh my God.

[Henry]

What rape gangs have I denied?

And what has systemic racism got to do with this?

[Magic]

"What? Lil ol' me?"

[Shindig]

Inclusion rider's a bit much. Casting's a weird mix of business and creative decisions. It should be entirely the latter.

[phonics]

Inclusion riders isn't just the cast, it's the crew.

[Shindig]

... oh. At that level, gender shouldn't even matter.

[phonics]

It's not just gender. And we all know your issues with certain genders anyway.

[niko_cee]

What an inclusive thing to say.

[Giggles]

It's not just gender. And we all know your issues with certain genders anyway.

:D

"YOU'RE ALL CUNTS"

Regards,
Snowflake.

[phonics]

What an inclusive thing to say.

Love this sort of stuff. Makes no sense but always comes along. It's 'So much for the tolerant left' when some racist gets told to fuck off.

[niko_cee]

It's just too easy.

And 'the left' has never been particularly tolerant, incidentally.

[phonics]

And 'the left' has never been particularly tolerant, incidentally.

No doubt. Huge swathes of them are massive idiots much like the rest of the population.

[Panda Bear]

'I'll give you a job if...' isn't 'straight-up rape'. You can always not be an actress if that is the cost.

"Hi, I have the power to destroy your dreams and career aspirations if you don't do give me a blowjob."

[niko_cee]

You can probably leave the last bit out.

Implicit abuse.

Or change destroy to make/realise/etc.

[Panda Bear]

What rape gangs have I denied?

And what has systemic racism got to do with this?Systemic racism is executed similarly to systemic sexism, and since both concern the oppression of persons, it is problematic to disavow one without disavowing the other. So Phonics is arguing that if you're against systemic racism, you're a hypocrite if you're also not against systemic sexism.

You stating that the #MeToo movement is problematic because it's "a witch hunt" implies that you prioritize protecting men from sexual assault allegations over protecting victims of sexual assault.

[Panda Bear]

You can probably leave the last bit out.

Implicit abuse.

Or change destroy to make/realise/etc.And in either case, it qualifies as coercion.

[Lewis]

"Hi, I have the power to destroy your dreams and career aspirations if you don't do give me a blowjob."

Would you suck somebody off for a good architecture role?

[Panda Bear]

It's just too easy.

And 'the left' has never been particularly tolerant, incidentally.


No doubt. Huge swathes of them are massive idiots much like the rest of the population.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism

[phonics]

Not the main argument but coercion should be spelt with an s. Coersion/Coerzion sounds nicer.

[niko_cee]

And in either case, it qualifies as coercion.

Everything's coercion. No one really wants to be doing 90% of what they have to do on a daily basis.

[Panda Bear]

Would you suck somebody off for a good architecture role?

Nope.

[niko_cee]

What about for a walk-on in the next Transformers film?

[Panda Bear]

Everything's coercion. No one really wants to be doing 90% of what they have to do on a daily basis.

90% of what you do on a daily basis is because people are either threatening you or forcing you? You spend 90% of your day under duress?

Really?

[Panda Bear]

Would you suck somebody off for a good architecture role?

I'm actually a bit mad that you asked this question.

[phonics]

I would probably suck someone off for the job of my dreams. The underlying problem is you're going to need to suck that person off anytime you want anything done for the rest of your career at which point it's not really your job is it.

[Lewis]

I'm actually a bit mad that you asked this question.

Don't you want to be an architect as much as these women wanted to be actresses?

[niko_cee]

It simply isn't duress if the promise is a benefit, however you might like to think otherwise. You don't have to participate.

It's a shitty industry. It's always been a shitty industry. Is it a bad thing all this crap is happening? Absolutely not (by that I don't mean the harassment, but rather the kickback, for clarity). Are there perhaps questions about why it has taken so long? I would say certainly. My original point was that I don't agree that your version of coercion vitiates consent in the context of rape, and that it is therefore disrespectful to actual victims of that crime to try and equate the two. Or perhaps, that none of this ever seems to be provable beyond allegation (of course this is an inherent problem in the crime itself as well).

As far is the rest of the movement is concerned, I have no great qualms with it, other than the cynical observation that the entire industry is built, to an extent, to facilitate the dreams of the beautiful people, and in an environment where sex is no longer a currency, might some of these said people, or their aspiring newgens as existing participants have already made their Faustian pact (or not), find that the industry is no longer as open to them as perhaps it once was. And will that be better, for them?

[phonics]

Don't you want to be an architect as much as these women wanted to be actresses?

There's a difference between a good architect job and the opportunity to be Frank Lloyd Wright. (I've never heard of him but he appears at the top of Google under famous architect)

[phonics]

It simply isn't duress if the promise is a benefit, however you might like to think otherwise. You don't have to participate.

It's a shitty industry. It's always been a shitty industry. Is it a bad thing all this crap is happening? Absolutely not (by that I don't mean the harassment, but rather the kickback, for clarity). Are there perhaps questions about why it has taken so long? I would say certainly. My original point was that I don't agree that your version of coercion vitiates consent in the context of rape, and that it is therefore disrespectful to actual victims of that crime to try and equate the two.

As far is the rest of the movement is concerned, I have no great qualms with it, other than the cynical observation that the entire industry is built, to an extent, to facilitate the dreams of the beautiful people, and in an environment where sex is no longer a currency, might some of these said people, or their aspiring newgens as existing participants have already made their Faustian pact (or not), find that the industry is no longer as open to them as perhaps it once was. And will that be better, for them?

Lets remind ourselves on the point this 'debate' started on


The MeToo stuff is tiresome, and a witchhunt.

If there's anyone suffering in chains of oppression, it isn't Hollywood actresses.

On your wider point: Just as many repercussions of not sleeping with someone is 'You'll never work in this town again' as it is 'I'll give you a job if...'

Weinstein would plant bad stories about those that wouldn't put out across the gossip rags. Agents were told to avoid certain 'troublesome' actresses. etc.

[Panda Bear]

Don't you want to be an architect as much as these women wanted to be actresses?Your question isn't even as horrible as it should be.

Lots of these actresses were faced with "if you don't do this, I will ruin your career" as opposed to "if you do this, I will make your career". The former is worse than the latter.

[Magic]

George Clarke? Kevin McCloud? Le Corbousier?

[niko_cee]

And in the brave new world it won't be refusing Harvey Weinstein that does for you, it'll be liking something on facebook that the Dalai Lama once glanced at or makes reference to Tibet in a way to the disliking Supreme Leader Xi.

There are may existential threats out there.

[phonics]

And in the brave new world it won't be refusing Harvey Weinstein that does for you, it'll be liking something on facebook that the Dalai Lama once glanced at or makes reference to Tibet in a way to the disliking Supreme Leader Xi.

There are may existential threats out there.

Yep and this is one of them so it's not bad for women at the top of their profession to speak out about it.

[niko_cee]

Actually, further to Panda's hypothetical situation, considering the sheer number of people who have come out and said "well, I'm not like that" I find it hard to believe that Weinstein even really wielded that sort of power, unless all the good guys were also somehow complicit, which somewhat calls their good guy status, and whether you want to be involved with any of them, into question.

It was all an exceptionally well played con.

They should make a film about it.

[phonics]

George Clarke? Kevin McCloud? Le Corbousier?

Never heard of any of them but turns out that the last one did the flats opposite my old place.

https://i.imgur.com/f9b3wNy.png
https://i.imgur.com/q7VW8wT.png

Such nice flats. Open plan duplexes. One couple had what looked to be a 30ft Christmas tree. I was so jealous.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's not the substance of #MeToo that winds people up. It's the fact that it's Hollywood trying to spin a scandal, that should have disbanded the entire concept of Hollywood, into a self-preserving positive.

Fuck off is anyone involved in the acting profession 'brave'. Brave women are women whose already abusive husbands fuck off when the third kid is born and they have to bring them up on the breadline.

[phonics]

Why not both? Bravery is a lot of things, it's not just the most extreme examples.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Because they think they matter and don't, which is never an appealing look.

[Panda Bear]

It simply isn't duress if the promise is a benefit, however you might like to think otherwise. You don't have to participate.

It's a shitty industry. It's always been a shitty industry. Is it a bad thing all this crap is happening? Absolutely not (by that I don't mean the harassment, but rather the kickback, for clarity). Are there perhaps questions about why it has taken so long? I would say certainly. My original point was that I don't agree that your version of coercion vitiates consent in the context of rape, and that it is therefore disrespectful to actual victims of that crime to try and equate the two. Or perhaps, that none of this ever seems to be provable beyond allegation (of course this is an inherent problem in the crime itself as well).

As far is the rest of the movement is concerned, I have no great qualms with it, other than the cynical observation that the entire industry is built, to an extent, to facilitate the dreams of the beautiful people, and in an environment where sex is no longer a currency, might some of these said people, or their aspiring newgens as existing participants have already made their Faustian pact (or not), find that the industry is no longer as open to them as perhaps it once was. And will that be better, for them?Although your use of "vitiates" implies you have a good vocabulary, you do not seem to understand 'coercion'. My version of coercion is the one that gets used by legal systems in places like the United Kingdom and Canada, i.e. coercion is the practice of making someone comply with an action by means of threat or force.

In cases where a victim may appear to voluntarily agree to performing sexual acts in exchange for not having the perpetrator ruin their career (e.g. an actress and Weinstein), this apparent voluntary agreement does not qualify as 'consent' because the perpetrator is exploiting the significant asymmetry of power/influence between them. The voluntary agreement is occurring under duress, and the performed acts are occurring as a transaction whereby the victim is receiving far less benefit than the trauma induced. Had the victim genuinely consented to the act, then the act would not need to be transactional in order to occur.

Yes, there are victims of sexual assault and rape who saw absolutely no benefit to their lives whereas some of these actresses did. This does not disqualify those actresses being victims, and stating that this understanding of 'coercion' is a disservice to other persons is much the opposite: many women have been victimized by people in order to retain or gain employment, and redefining 'coercion' to disqualify actresses is the same action to disqualify these women in parallel situations.

[Panda Bear]

Actually, further to Panda's hypothetical situation, considering the sheer number of people who have come out and said "well, I'm not like that" I find it hard to believe that Weinstein even really wielded that sort of power, unless all the good guys were also somehow complicit, which somewhat calls their good guy status, and whether you want to be involved with any of them, into question.

It was all an exceptionally well played con.

They should make a film about it.
Lots of reasons.

1. "He's my friend, there's no way what they're saying is true!"
2. "He may have done it, but he's still my friend."
3. "If I say anything, he'll ruin my career."
4. "I don't know what to do in this situation, so I will ignore it."
5. "Well he didn't pin them down in a back alley, so surely that can't be rape, right?"

It's so easy to be a bystander that there's an effect named after it.

[Panda Bear]

Because they think they matter and don't, which is never an appealing look.If public figures who are able to bring mass public awareness to issues like sexual assault in a way that makes many people reconsider their actions or be brought to some form of justice doesn't matter, then surely the victims who aren't famous matter even less.

[Lewis]

What's the name for someone like Gwyneth Paltrow not bothering to say anything during the decade (at least) when she was clearly big enough not to have her career sunk?

[Panda Bear]

What's the name for someone like Gwyneth Paltrow not bothering to say anything during the decade (at least) when she was clearly big enough not to have her career sunk?Coward? Bystander?

[phonics]

Because they think they matter and don't, which is never an appealing look.

Considering I got an e-mail about sexual harassment in the work place in my 35 people organization as well as colleagues from my old place at DuPont having to go to multiple workplace trainings (employees: 52k according to google) that referenced/quoted experiences from #MeToo, I'd argue they do make it matter.

I understand that you suffered in silence in your misery for years at your job but that's not a good thing. If you had people at the top of your company that thought the same way to change processes for the better, you'd probably still be in Little Korea rather than dealing with the Irish.

[phonics]

Coward? Bystander?

Self serving. I didn't particularly like Ulma Thermans #MeToo piece where she listed several things that were massively out of line and stories that she heard from others but didn't act on yet the only thing people remember is her looking mad on the red carpet one time. Human beings are for the most part shades of grey, it's why the Good ones and the Bad ones stand out.

[Lewis]

Coward? Bystander?

Beneficiary.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If public figures who are able to bring mass public awareness to issues like sexual assault in a way that makes many people reconsider their actions or be brought to some form of justice doesn't matter, then surely the victims who aren't famous matter even less.

The victims who aren't famous matter much more, because, like the children who were/are molested by non-celebrities, they have no mass media power to help lift themselves out of it.

[Panda Bear]

The victims who aren't famous matter much more, because, like the children who were/are molested by non-celebrities, they have no mass media power to help lift themselves out of it.So sexual assault is more acceptable if the victim gets some money or fame out of the abuse. Gotcha.

Guess we should stop talking about this then because there's no way dialogue and discussions in one subculture could possibly permeate into others.

[phonics]

The victims who aren't famous matter much more, because, like the children who were/are molested by non-celebrities, they have no mass media power to help lift themselves out of it.

So Andy Woodward is a media attention grabbing arsehole but the other 42 victims of Barry Bennell are brave?

[Henry]

So, let's have it right, motherfuckers.

Sexual assault is bad. Harvey Weinstein and whoever else is guilty of this ought to be tried and punished in a court of law.

What is also bad is the obsession with identity politics and the self-congratulatory narcissism of Hollywood - the campaign that's going on. These are some of the most privileged people on the planet parading their victimhood, cheered on by tabloid muck-rakers and a celebrity-obsessed audience wanting to vicariously wallow in the outrage. Their primary effect is to make harassment seem ubiquitous thus distorting normal sexual behaviors, promoting anxiety among women at the prospect of encountering it and anxiety among men at the prospect of being accused.

Statistics were presented earlier in the thread concerning false accusations being at around 5% for sexual assault. I suggest that this is far higher when the subjects are prominent individuals of any stripe. Add to that a bandwagon effect, trial by media and a very substantial grey area around consent when it's of the "sleeping with the boss to get a job" variety and it becomes an excuse for point scoring and self-justification.

There is a proportion of "the left", itself obsessed with identify politics - especially gender politics - which is determined to chastise men collectively for this. I was actually told in a conversation by one of these people that as a male I ought to examine my own behavior. Maybe I should, but the idea that the crimes of Hollywood film producers should occasion it is bizarre.

If this amount of effort were focused on some of the far more egregious problems in American society, who knows where we could get to?

[Magic]

It can be said that there are cultural differences with the societies that immigrants are coming from with regards to the role of women and the rule of law, which need to be addressed, and which make sexual offenses higher per head of population than in western countries. This is a problem best analysed and addressed without the hysteria and obvious alterior motives of the knuckle-draggers who are attempting to monopolise the discussion.

:harold:

Keep at it, mate. You're a cretin.

[Henry]

:harold:

Keep at it, mate. You're a cretin.

Okay, so you've dredged that I'm up and I'm not seeing an issue. The wider point - rapey people are best dealt with in an atmosphere free from hysteria.

[Magic]

Okay, so you've dredged that I'm up and I'm not seeing an issue. The wider point - rapey people are best dealt with in an atmosphere free from hysteria.

White women being systematically raped - "It's not the immigrants fault, culture you know!"
White women being systematically raped - "They should shut up, they are privileged and don't deserve a pedal stool!"

[Henry]

White women being systematically raped - "It's not the immigrants fault, culture you know!"
White women being systematically raped - "They should shut up, they are privileged and don't deserve a pedal stool!"

Your lies make Baby Jesus cry.

[John]

What is it about prominent people that makes you think the incidence of false sexual assault accusations will be 'far higher' among them than others, Henry?

You're not someone to be taken seriously in general, but that's just fucking gratuitous.

[Henry]

Accusations against, not accusations made by.

And fuck you too.

[Magic]

He's lost his mind.

Meltdown imminent.

[wullie]

Can't believe people from Hollyoaks won an Oscar on the one year I didn't put a bet on that happening.

[Lewis]

971013841395027968

Such a legend.

[Panda Bear]

Well I was coming in here expecting a chat about how Sam Rockwell deserved his best supporting actor award.Watched Three Billboards last night, and Sam Rockwell was phenomenal in it.

[ItalAussie]

Well, this Oscars seemed uneventful. Glad that the song from Coco won.

It's funny because it was probably the best film lineup in years. Three Billboards, Shape of Water, Lady Bird, and Get Out were all outstanding films.