The yankee mass shootings thread

[Jimmy Floyd]

How many times do I have to say this, mass shootings do not happen in suburban America, any more than they happen in Europe. An example, America's safest city over a population of 250,000 is Plano, Texas with a homicide rate of 0.4 (which is lower than the countries of Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Denmark, etc.). I'm at work so I can't be bothered to find the exact numbers, but Texas almost undoubtedly has a higher incidence of average gun ownership than the US as a whole, and the US has the highest civilian gun ownership rate out of any country in the world, by a lot.

So the main take away: there are places in America where crime is lower than nearly anywhere else on earth, where the citizenry is armed more heavily than anywhere else on earth.

Guns. Are. Not. The. Problem.

Right, and the price you pay for that is the fact that a dangerous nutcase is easily able to kill 50 people in a bar because they can easily access the weaponry needed to do so.

We have the same nutters in other western countries but they simply don't have access to that killing power.

[Davgooner]

Apparently there were armed police in the club, so I wonder how many people died in the crossfire as opposed to being directly targeted by the madman.

[phonics]

We just going to pretend deterrence doesn't exist or?

Think the Death Penalty has kinda proved that one true.

[randomlegend]

There's a difference between 'unlikely' and 'impossible'.

There is, but neither of those things are impossible.

Where exactly do you draw the line?

[Magic]

Apparently there were armed police in the club, so I wonder how many people died in the crossfire as opposed to being directly targeted by the madman.

Before the gunman attacked? Are they that afraid of gays?

[Shindig]

Ya I'm sure that the person about to murder you will wait for the police to show up to protect you before proceeding. :wall:

I'm sure every gun-carrying criminal in the US immediately jumps to murder.

[Bartholomert]

Right, and the price you pay for that is the fact that a dangerous nutcase is easily able to kill 50 people in a bar because they can easily access the weaponry needed to do so.

We have the same nutters in other western countries but they simply don't have access to that killing power.

I don't understand why you don't get this. Our gun crime levels are very similar when you compare European nations and the US along demographic lines. There is no problem.

[Bartholomert]

Apparently there were armed police in the club, so I wonder how many people died in the crossfire as opposed to being directly targeted by the madman.

Link.

Just goes to show that police men aren't sufficientnly reliable to protect citizens and that private individuals need to be armed to protect themselves.

[Bartholomert]

I'm sure every gun-carrying criminal in the US immediately jumps to murder.

The point is simple; you don't have time to wait for the police to protect you if your life or the lives of your family are in danger.

[Pepe]

'We have no crime issues, except where we do. But apart from those places, yes, no crime issues here.'

[Bartholomert]

'We have no crime issues, except where we do. But apart from those places, yes, no crime issues here.'

The point is there are areas with very high gun ownership with very low crime, lower even that of European nations with gun control. If little or no gun regulation is the independent variable responsible for higher rates of gun crime, these anomalies would not exist.

[Davgooner]

No link; heard it on the radio last night so could be bollocks. Just interested in the possibilities rather than making any specific point.

[Pepe]

The point is there are areas with very high gun ownership with very low crime, lower even that of European nations with gun control. If little or no gun regulation is the independent variable responsible for higher rates of gun crime, these anomalies would not exist.

Everyone but you is focusing on mass shootings, not general crime. While I don't think gun availability is the #1 reason for the stupidly high amount of mass shootings that occur over here, I find it hard to believe that it has nothing to do with it. Then you have to consider the number of accidental gun deaths that happen every year.

As for 'general crime,' I would think gun availability is a secondary factor and not just a matter of more guns = more crime.

I understand that (some) Americans like the feeling of self-reliability that guns give them. I just don't think that feeling is enough of a positive to balance the negatives. Still, gun control isn't one of my top priorities, there are many more issues I would prefer were tackled first and if anything, the fact that the response to every shooting (how many do we get? something like two a month?) is yet another shoutfest about gun control gets a bit boring.

[Disco]

He didn't listen 3 pages back so don't get your hopes up.

[Bartholomert]

Everyone but you is focusing on mass shootings, not general crime. While I don't think gun availability is the #1 reason for the stupidly high amount of mass shootings that occur over here, I find it hard to believe that it has nothing to do with it. Then you have to consider the number of accidental gun deaths that happen every year.

As for 'general crime,' I would think gun availability is a secondary factor and not just a matter of more guns = more crime.

I understand that (some) Americans like the feeling of self-reliability that guns give them. I just don't think that feeling is enough of a positive to balance the negatives. Still, gun control isn't one of my top priorities, there are many more issues I would prefer were tackled first and if anything, the fact that the response to every shooting (how many do we get? something like two a month?) is yet another shoutfest about gun control gets a bit boring.

Well if we're focusing on mass shootings only, there's the whole debate about how to define a "mass shooting", how the vast majority of them happen in gun-free zones, etc. It gets messy and I don't think non-Americans are really equipped to go that deep into the gun debate.

And yes, I am happy to concede that it is established beyond any reasonable doubt that higher gun ownership does correspond with higher suicide rates and accidental shootings. The morbid / dark side of me might half-jokingly respond that that's just Darwinism at work.

I would argue that even if the negatives outweigh the positives (in terms of short term safety), this does not justify taking away our freedom as individuals. Heck, you could probably argue that a society which implemented sexual segregation outside a heavily regulated / monitored mating process / IVF insemination would probably suffer from far fewer sexual assaults as a result; but what's the point of safety without the freedom to exercise your freewill? Maximum safety shouldn't even be a desired end in and of itself.

[Disco]

Four or more is the definition of 'mass' in this context.

[Bartholomert]

Four or more is the definition of 'mass' in this context.

Deaths or casualties?

[SvN]

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43004.pdf


There is no broadly agreed-to, specific conceptualization of this issue, so this report uses its own definition for public mass shootings. These are incidents occurring in relatively public places, involving four or more deaths—not ncluding the shooter(s)—and gunmen who select victims somewhat indiscriminately.

[Disco]

Sorry, it's the definition of Mass Killings initially put forward by the FBI and then re-assessed by Congress. They seem to disagree if it should be three or four so I'm taking the higher number.

[Lee]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/sky-news-homophobia-orlando-sexuality

Now I might be being thick, but my take on Jones having a mardy last night was that it was because he wanted it to only be reported as a homophobic attack. When watching I thought he was a knob and that whilst it was clearly a homophobic attack, it was also some other things too.

Now he is making the opposite argument to the one I thought he was making.

[Pepe]

I would argue that even if the negatives outweigh the positives (in terms of short term safety), this does not justify taking away our freedom as individuals.

You know, I do have some respect for the 'freedom' arguments and a few people out there do manage to show at least a degree of consistency with it. But it seems that the only 'freedom' right-wing Americans care about is the freedom to own guns. They are happy to jump aboard the 'ban abortion/gay marriage/drugs/anything-I-don't-like-train,' freedom be damned in all those cases. How about shit like, say, the speed limit? Why is no one chimping out about that clear violation of our freedom to drive as we please? Society is built on the premise of resigning some freedom in the name of stability. I don't think giving up the right to own firearms is that big of a deal. Obviously about half of the country disagrees with me, that's fine. I would gladly take something like universal healthcare over any sort of ban on guns, for example.

[Lee]

"Today, the 'we only care about LGBT rights if Muslims are involved' brigade are out in force."

Yeah, fuck off mate.

[Pepe]

"Today, the 'we only care about LGBT rights if Muslims are involved' brigade are out in force."

Yeah, fuck off mate.

That's pretty lol.

[Davgooner]

A lot of truth in that sadly.

[Disco]

'Out in force' is such a shithouse phrase.

[Lewis]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/sky-news-homophobia-orlando-sexuality

Now I might be being thick, but my take on Jones having a mardy last night was that it was because he wanted it to only be reported as a homophobic attack. When watching I thought he was a knob and that whilst it was clearly a homophobic attack, it was also some other things too.

Now he is making the opposite argument to the one I thought he was making.

It was not so much only wanting to portray it as homophobic as not making it about Muslims, which the other two were groping towards without also really wanting to say it (like this bloke (https://twitter.com/DouglasKMurray/status/742125389099761664) lives for).

[ItalAussie]

In fairness, it is morbidly interesting watching social conservative figures express their condolences while carefully tip-toeing around the LGBT component of the crime.

[Magic]

Sick bastard to get off on something like that. Mea Maxima Culpa.

[ItalAussie]

Also, this guy really does seem like the type who wouldn't be able to get a gun if they weren't easily for sale. He seems to have been a lone operator with a very short fuse. It's not like had a network of criminal contacts who could import it for him.

The "bad guys will still get guns" argument seems to collect everyone into a great big criminal bloc, with all the access that provides. The reality is that a lot of these loners are quite isolated, and would never be able to find that kind of equipment in, for example, the UK.

[Magic]

Has anyone mentioned he actually had a firearm license?

[Jimmy Floyd]

In fairness, it is morbidly interesting watching social conservative figures express their condolences while carefully tip-toeing around the LGBT component of the crime.

This sort of thing breaks various people's brains, as depending on which side of the spectrum they're on, they think Muslims and gays are both violently evil / can do no wrong (delete as appropriate) and find it difficult to add nuance.

[Bartholomert]

Also, this guy really does seem like the type who wouldn't be able to get a gun if they weren't easily for sale. He seems to have been a lone operator with a very short fuse. It's not like had a network of criminal contacts who could import it for him.

The "bad guys will still get guns" argument seems to collect everyone into a great big criminal bloc, with all the access that provides. The reality is that a lot of these loners are quite isolated, and would never be able to find that kind of equipment in, for example, the UK.

Drugs are illegal and easy to buy. Don't know why guns wouldn't be the same.

[Disco]

That's a fatuous argument because drugs are far harder to buy than normal groceries.

[Bartholomert]

That's a fatuous argument because drugs are far harder to buy than normal groceries.

Yeah but if you wanted to buy drugs you can easily do it. If you wanted to buy a gun you could easily do it. I would think that if you have the resolve to kill a bunch of people, you're not going to be deterred by having to put a little bit extra effort.

[Bartholomert]

You know, I do have some respect for the 'freedom' arguments and a few people out there do manage to show at least a degree of consistency with it. But it seems that the only 'freedom' right-wing Americans care about is the freedom to own guns. They are happy to jump aboard the 'ban abortion/gay marriage/drugs/anything-I-don't-like-train,' freedom be damned in all those cases. How about shit like, say, the speed limit? Why is no one chimping out about that clear violation of our freedom to drive as we please? Society is built on the premise of resigning some freedom in the name of stability. I don't think giving up the right to own firearms is that big of a deal. Obviously about half of the country disagrees with me, that's fine. I would gladly take something like universal healthcare over any sort of ban on guns, for example.

Those 'conservatives' are frauds; the issue isn't the ideology.

I agree there should be democratically/legislatively delineated restraints on freedom, but last time I checked the 2nd Amendment still existed.

[ItalAussie]

The lack of gun proliferation in countries with gun restrictions like Australian and the UK suggests otherwise.

However, I do agree with you on the second amendment. As much as I wouldn't write it if I were writing a constitution, it's definitely there. I mean, you could argue what constitutes a militia, etc., but it seems like the current interpretation has generally held up in court.

[Disco]

Yeah but if you wanted to buy drugs you can easily do it. If you wanted to buy a gun you could easily do it. I would think that if you have the resolve to kill a bunch of people, you're not going to be deterred by having to put a little bit extra effort.

So because people could still break the law there's no point in having one?

You're going to have a lot of spare room in your statute book if you follow that logic.

[Pepe]

The 'criminals will still get them' argument is pretty weak. At least use the 'how are we going to remove them?' one, it is a bit stronger.

[Bartholomert]

The lack of gun proliferation in countries with gun restrictions like Australian and the UK suggests otherwise.

However, I do agree with you on the second amendment. As much as I wouldn't write it if I were writing a constitution, it's definitely there. I mean, you could argue what constitutes a militia, etc., but it seems like the current interpretation has generally held up in court.

They are islands, it is much easier to control your borders.

US v. Heller (2008) :checkit:

[Bartholomert]

So because people could still break the law there's no point in having one?

You're going to have a lot of spare room in your statute book if you follow that logic.

It's about reciprocal application. If I have a traffic law, everyone is safer if most people follow that law. If I have a gun regulation, those who follow the law are less safe than those who don't.

I just made that up so it might be total bollocks.

[Bartholomert]

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43004.pdf

Okay let's go with that:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data

There have been 81 mass shooting in the last 35 years; or about 2.3 per year with an average of 17 deaths per year. Hardly an epidemic. Yes every death is a tragedy, but to put that into perspective 450 people die falling out of their bed per year in the USA; it is literally 2,600% more likely for you to die getting out of bed than you are from being a victim of a mass shooting.

[niko_cee]

Nice spoiler. Considering how many durwoods shoot themselves by accident I would imagine it is total bollocks.

[Bartholomert]

Nice spoiler. Considering how many durwoods shoot themselves by accident I would imagine it is total bollocks.

It's about safety from others, not from yourself and/or something about intent.

[niko_cee]

I'm fairly sure it's been shown that your overall 'safety' goes down if you own a gun (ie it is more likely to cause you harm than save you from harm). You can't only assess it's relative value in an armed intruder situation. Even then, seeing as I would imagine any sane individual would keep it locked away somewhere it's probably still fairly useless. You should just scatter landmines about before going to bed each night.

[Bartholomert]

I'm fairly sure it's been shown that your overall 'safety' goes down if you own a gun (ie it is more likely to cause you harm than save you from harm). You can't only assess it's relative value in an armed intruder situation. Even then, seeing as I would imagine any sane individual would keep it locked away somewhere it's probably still fairly useless. You should just scatter landmines about before going to bed each night.

Yes that's why I was precluding injury done to self and/or requiring intent.

[Shindig]

So let's spin this for a second and say that there's a mental health crisis in the United States. For the sake of that, gun restrictions seems like a good idea, right? You have to stop seeing guns as a defence weapon and see it more as a weapon that can end more lives quicker than knives or homemade explosives. I mean, look at the perps of these massacres. All headcases. Headcases with easy access to firearms.

Britain arguably has a similar issue but, without the access, our headcases maybe get away with one brutal murder, rather than 20+.

[Pepe]

The liberal media and its usual BS:

http://www.thenation.com/article/combat-vets-destroy-the-nras-heroic-gunslinger-fantasy/

I could quote half of the article, so you should read it instead. I will, however, quote this part:


 A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police say that as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

:harold:

[niko_cee]

Imagine opening fire at a petrol station. What could possibly go wrong?

[phonics]

742425614943129600

Whats the hymn/song referenced here? My ears are absolutely awful at understanding lyrics when sung by crowds.

[Gray Fox]

Bridge over troubled water. Sounds pretty clear.

[phonics]

Sounds pretty clear.

It probably does. Just been one of those things I can't hear. Failed a French exam because of it once.

[Magic]

Bridge over troubled water. Sounds pretty clear.

It couldn't be any clearer...well maybe If it had subtitles. Sake, phon.

[Disco]

It probably does. Just been one of those things I can't hear. Failed a French exam because of it once.

Group singing is an odd way to deliver an exam.

[Magic]

It was probably on how to surrender en masse.

[Lee]

742425614943129600

Whats the hymn/song referenced here? My ears are absolutely awful at understanding lyrics when sung by crowds.

I dunno. I can get on board with Corbyn leaving home and never returning because of who he is.

[Lewis]

The self-indulgence on show there. It's not nice, but - gay or not - you're not part of it. Three weeks ago ISIS blew up 184 Syrians in an afternoon. I don't remember being expected to stand in solidarity with them and the two-hundred injured.

[Lee]

That's why Owen Jones looked such a twat last night. He was more gutted not to have been in the club when it happened than anything else.

[Magic]

All my Facebook needed was another excuse for LGBTs to force themselves down my newsfeed. Bastards.

[Yevrah]

I still don't understand how the T got involved.

[Lee]

Isn't it LGBTQ now? The Q being for Queer which is apparently okay in the US.

[Magic]

Why do they need gay and queer? Surely it should be LGBTNB?

[Pepe]

Isn't it LGBTQ now? The Q being for Queer which is apparently okay in the US.

We're at LGBTQA now, actually.

[Magic]

What about FDL?

[Pepe]

What about it?

[7om]

We're at LGBTQA now, actually.

LGBTQIA, I last heard. Fucking hell.

[Magic]

I meant FDP.

[Pepe]

LGBTQIA, I last heard. Fucking hell.

You are right, my bad.

[Yevrah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/36514358

Absolutely heartbreaking stuff.

[Pepe]

Shii. :(

[Lee]

Imagine the fear. Fuck me. I don't think I'd be able to text, I'd be drenched in my own tears. Horrible cunt.

[Lewis]

Am I too distant from it to be thinking that if you've got time to text then you've got time to make a better go of escaping?

[Pepe]

You could give it a try, sure.

[randomlegend]

Am I too distant from it to be thinking that if you've got time to text then you've got time to make a better go of escaping?

What are you gonna do, just run out the cubicle past him and hope he doesn't react in time?

[Disco]

You could throw your milk in his face.

[Yevrah]

Am I too distant from it to be thinking that if you've got time to text then you've got time to make a better go of escaping?

It's a difficult one.

On the one hand there must be a part of you that's hoping beyond hope that the shooter(s) won't make it to you before the armed forces get to him/them, but on the other hand you'd obviously know that if they do and you're in a toilet cubicle you're fucked.

[Pepe]

I can't imagine many people would be going out of that room if they hear there is shooting going on outside it.

[Spoonsky]

If you want a proliferation of guns, you'll just have to accept that there will constantly be mass murders - I'm making the 488th post in this thread - and if you're fine with that, then enjoy living in America. I hope your friends and family never get caught up in one.

Yup. The chances of being killed in a mass shooting are still far less than being killed in your car on the highway. Not that the shootings aren't a problem, but they're no reason to flee the country either. I'd rather leave because of how much I have to drive everywhere.

Mert, I think you conflate gun violence with mass shootings. Gun violence is a huge problem in this country, but like you've said it's got to do with a lot more than just the 2nd Amendment (like gang violence, race, housing, the general state of society) and outside of the inner cities it's not a huge problem. These mass shootings are different though, they happen just as much in the suburbs and in affluent places, and they do happen here far more than in Europe. So yes, these shootings are fundamentally a gun problem (as well as a mental health problem); they're not gangs just shooting each other up.

[7om]

Spoon, did you choosing McGill have anything to do with a potential Trump presidency or is it just a happy coincidence?

[Spoonsky]

Probably subconsciously hearing everyone threaten to move to Canada made me want to actually do it. Certainly I admit that the rise of Trump and this presidential election in general has made me more amenable to living in a different country for a few years.

[bruhnaldo]

You guys are just wrong. Any argument you make I can very easily counter, at the end of the day it just comes down to, 'well emotionally I just feel that gun control should work, it works in the UK, and because I have an inferiority complex due to my countries relative poverty compared to the US, I will continue irrationally believing that my country is right on this issue even in the face of overwhelming logic, reason and evidence to the contrary.'

You're so fucking annoying.

[bruhnaldo]

That girl I work with just found out one of her brother's best friends passed that she hung out with all the time.

I'm not going to lie this is one of the hardest things I've had to deal with. Like I don't know what I'm supposed to even say. S

I took her outside and just kinda let her cry into my shoulder for a minute and tried to just tell her to be strong and that it's okay to be upset cause it's all so so so so fucked but we gotta be strong for the people around us and etc.

She's literally crying talking about she used to see these people all the time and now she'll go out and they just won't be there. that she spent her birthday with these people. people whose names you may not remember but faces you know. just gone.

and i'm out here trying to say some shit about well we gotta just think about the lives they DID get to lead and how we have to honor them by making sure we stay strong and just being there for our community and standing up in the face of evil.

that's the 3rd person she'd lost that she knew. i told her honey, it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. but you gotta be strong

i'm honestly not trying to attention whore i really just don't know who to talk to right now and i don'tk now if i'm doing the right thing but trying to be supportive or if i should just shut up and not take the lead.

it's going to be such a long week.

posted this on another forum just thought i'd share.

i realized that i was literally .4 miles away from this club getting tacos about the time this would've started.

I didn't hear anything and drove the opposite way home but just very surreal to think about that I might have crossed paths with this person right before he did that, considering my route of travel.

Shit is crazy right now.

[Magic]

Always had my suspicions about you, Bruhn.

[Kikó]

Can't imagine how messed up that kind of thing makes you. I suppose she's too old to start a tennis career?

[Boydy]

Apparently the shooter had previously visited the club often. Definite repression case.

[niko_cee]

He looks gay as a window in most of the pictures that have appeared.

[Disco]

Called it.

[Bernanke]

Top comment on the thread about his gayness on Reddit:

"Apparently he also claimed allegiance/membership to Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, and ISIS... despite all three organizations being enemies of each other."

:D

Edit:

"How's this: Aspiring member of Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, the NYPD, and the LGBTQ community."

:lol:

[Bartholomert]

Yup. The chances of being killed in a mass shooting are still far less than being killed in your car on the highway. Not that the shootings aren't a problem, but they're no reason to flee the country either. I'd rather leave because of how much I have to drive everywhere.

Mert, I think you conflate gun violence with mass shootings. Gun violence is a huge problem in this country, but like you've said it's got to do with a lot more than just the 2nd Amendment (like gang violence, race, housing, the general state of society) and outside of the inner cities it's not a huge problem. These mass shootings are different though, they happen just as much in the suburbs and in affluent places, and they do happen here far more than in Europe. So yes, these shootings are fundamentally a gun problem (as well as a mental health problem); they're not gangs just shooting each other up.

17 deaths a year due to mass shootings. There is more of an epidemic of people dying from fall off their beds, than from mass shootings.

[Bartholomert]

He looks gay as a window in most of the pictures that have appeared.

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/4nz1nb/trump_right_again_omar_mateen_sold_his_house_to/

Family members knew about impending attack and did nothing about it.

[phonics]

*links to /r/The_Donald*

lol

Christ it's even better than I thought. Here's the original source website.

https://i.imgur.com/duGvA7h.png

:D

It's like when Harold used to link to that weirdo neo-nazi site as a source.

edit: Lol people in that thread are claiming that there was multiple shooters and it was an army of muslims that did it and the media are covering it up to help muslims take over the world. These people are absolutely mental mert. Genuinely mentally deranged. Surely you have to see this? You're not so dumb.

[Disco]

17 deaths a year due to mass shootings. There is more of an epidemic of people dying from fall off their beds, than from mass shootings.

That seems low given there were 50 killed this week alone.

[Shindig]

17 deaths a year due to mass shootings. There is more of an epidemic of people dying from fall off their beds, than from mass shootings.

Fall off your fucking bed, then.

[randomlegend]

Oh god, he's just been lifting arguments from that sub for the last however long hasn't he?

What with his "I literally just made that up" edit the other day, he's not even hiding the fact that everything he posts is just copied from something he's read.

[randomlegend]

That seems low given there were 50 killed this week alone.

He's probably doing an average over the last thousand years.

EDIT: Well, some retard on r/the_donald is anyway.

[Yevrah]

17 deaths a year due to mass shootings. There is more of an epidemic of people dying from fall off their beds, than from mass shootings.

As long as you realise that your stance on guns means there will always be deaths from mass shootings.

[Bartholomert]

Oh god, he's just been lifting arguments from that sub for the last however long hasn't he?

What with his "I literally just made that up" edit the other day, he's not even hiding the fact that everything he posts is just copied from something he's read.

I found the sub like 2 days ago after the Orlando shootings got it a lot of press. I never go on reddit normally to the extent that I'm unaware that linking to that website is somehow not legitimate.

[Bartholomert]

That seems low given there were 50 killed this week alone.

Average based off of Mother Jones spreadsheet of the last 35 years I linked to on the last page which records all "mass shootings" as defined by the FBI (over 4 murders).

[Bartholomert]

As long as you realise that your stance on guns means there will always be deaths from mass shootings.

*insert Ben Franklin quote about giving up liberty to gain security means you will lose both*

[Yevrah]

*insert Ben Franklin quote about giving up liberty to gain security means you will lose both*

So you do then. That's fine.

[Shindig]

I found the sub like 2 days ago after the Orlando shootings got it a lot of press. I never go on reddit normally ....

But where else would you gather your cunning memes?

[ItalAussie]

Would the right support studies (by the CDC or otherwise) into causes and mitigation strategies for gun violence? Because arguing is all well and good, but since considering other countries is apparently off the table, nobody has anything but ideology to back themselves up.

[Lewis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIVDYJ9S7rI

Even though Harold will sign up later to post it: 'Doug-las! Doug-las! Doug-las!'

[Magic]

Imagine this being called in:

"Reports of shots fired in Pulse nightclub"
"Oh, did someone say Louboutins are out of fashion?"
"Haha, meow!"
"Hellllooooo!"
"I'll transfer you to the fashion police over"

[Lee]

Some Somali bloke has opened fire in a Texan Walmart and has taken hostages.

[niko_cee]

I hope he bought the gun there and then. Should be a test for the armed vigilante theory.

[John]

What sort of creative accounting has been applied for that seventeen a year figure? It's over a thousand in the last five years.

[niko_cee]

Did this shit happen all that much pre-Columbine? Other than Waco I can't really remember anything of the sort, and that was more just a lunatic siege.

[Shindig]

Maybe it wasn't reported as much?

[Magic]

But according to seven it's never reported at all. :(

[niko_cee]

Yeah, looking at it, apparently it did happen, although perhaps with less regularity and the death counts were usually lower. Still a few big ones in 1984 and 1991.

[Bartholomert]

Did this shit happen all that much pre-Columbine? Other than Waco I can't really remember anything of the sort, and that was more just a lunatic siege.

Peak of mass shootings in the US was in the 1920s, US is actually experiencing the lowest levels of crime in recorded history at present.

[Bartholomert]

Some Somali bloke has opened fire in a Texan Walmart and has taken hostages.

0 deaths, 0 injuries; the Texas difference.

[niko_cee]

I bet they happened more frequently in the good old days of the wild west.

[Pepe]

0 deaths, 0 injuries; the Texas difference.

They didn't even need to get the police involved or anything.

[Disco]

There was a big spike in gun violence in Europe during the early-mid forties, not sure why.

[Magic]

There was a big spike in gun violence in Europe during the early-mid forties, not sure why.

Pretty sure it was all those refugees.

[Gray Fox]

They should have held a referendum.

[Bartholomert]

There was a big spike in gun violence in Europe during the early-mid forties, not sure why.

http://i.imgur.com/meftV0q.gif?noredirect

[five time]

That gif is mesmerising. :D

[niko_cee]

They look to have stretched the "active shooter" definition a bit with this one.

[Pepe]

Someone put John McCain to sleep ffs.

[Spoonsky]

http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=7F740F35-438E-41ED-AA6E-81ECF4F608AD

John McCain is one of the most alright Republicans going.

[John]

0 deaths, 0 injuries; the Texas difference.

Are you just going to keep spouting this without ever addressing the many exceptions to this rule you seem to have invented? There was a time in the not too distant past when the worst mass shooting in US history was in Texas, and it was still the worst to have happened outside a school until that wanker the other day. Waco probably couldn't have happened anywhere but Texas. You also mentioned without evidence the other day that shootings don't happen at Texas churches, then ignored when mentioned that Texas also had the worst church shooting until Dylan Roof.

[phonics]

http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=7F740F35-438E-41ED-AA6E-81ECF4F608AD

John McCain is one of the most alright Republicans going.

What?

[Pepe]

He withdrew troops from the Middle East, so an American born citizen decided to murder some gays. Couldn't be any more straightforward.

[phonics]

And he didn't particularly withdraw them either. There's still fucking loads of them over there.

[Pepe]

Yes, but he has GUTTED the military! Moar bombs!

[Bartholomert]

Are you just going to keep spouting this without ever addressing the many exceptions to this rule you seem to have invented? There was a time in the not too distant past when the worst mass shooting in US history was in Texas, and it was still the worst to have happened outside a school until that wanker the other day. Waco probably couldn't have happened anywhere but Texas. You also mentioned without evidence the other day that shootings don't happen at Texas churches, then ignored when mentioned that Texas also had the worst church shooting until Dylan Roof.

How much time did it take you to research all that, be honest :harold:

[John]

How much time did it take you to research all that, be honest :harold:

Suddenly knowing what you're talking about is something to be scoffed at.

Maybe three minutes total, and that's being generous for the amount of time it took me to Google 'church shooting Ashbrook' to find the full name of the guy I remembered being mentioned when Roof went nuts.

Now, how about you address what was said.

[mugbull]

Johnny John John, self-proclaimed poster extraordinaire and fountain of hilarity, still determined to out Mert's bullshit. Oh you young summer child

[Bartholomert]

Suddenly knowing what you're talking about is something to be scoffed at.

Maybe three minutes total, and that's being generous for the amount of time it took me to Google 'church shooting Ashbrook' to find the full name of the guy I remembered being mentioned when Roof went nuts.

Now, how about you address what was said.

I mean what's your point, that gun crime also occurs in Texas, in particular on a few occasions 15+ years ago? Okay? I'm not sure what you think you've proven?

[phonics]

745803988503756800

Bloody hell :D

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clmxyt7XIAAN22a.jpg:large

[Dquincy]

Shoot them.

[Bartholomert]

Yes but Republican's are still the ones responsible for Congressional gridlock, right? Sorry they refuse to pass clearly unconstitutional legislation, but the headlines well play will to the uninformed base so who cares...

[phonics]

What did you think of them changing the fiduciary (sp?) rule, mert?

Surely that's promoting malpractice?

[Davgooner]

A trump supporter whining about the 'uninformed base'. :D

I read today that those wankers have voted down 100+ bills in the last five years aimed at tightening gun laws. At a time when money in politics is a big issue, that nothing can be done about this despite a huge majority of Americans wanting it, highlights quite nicely how bought their politicians are. The Democrats have not been left with much choice and fairplay to them for going in.

[Bartholomert]

A trump supporter whining about the 'uninformed base'. :D

I read today that those wankers have voted down 100+ bills in the last five years aimed at tightening gun laws. At a time when money in politics is a big issue, that nothing can be done about this despite a huge majority of Americans wanting it, highlights quite nicely how bought their politicians are. The Democrats have not been left with much choice and fairplay to them for going in.

The majority of Americans do not want more 'gun regulation' (whatever that means), what nonsense are you talking about? Support for gun rights are equal or higher among millenials (who often get even more conservative as they get older) over older generations and in general the most popular its been in decades*. And anyways, gun regulations are largely left to state legislatures anyways under their police powers, Congress is pretty limited in its enumerated powers to constitutionally act on the subject anyways.

*http://www.people-press.org/2014/12/10/growing-public-support-for-gun-rights/ and http://www.cato.org/blog/millennials-dont-love-gun-control

Trump supporters are better educated and earn more than Clinton supporters you ignorant idiot:

http://qz.com/679589/trump-voters-earn-more-and-are-better-educated-than-the-typical-american/

[Bartholomert]

Just so fucking wrong, how do you confidently state opinions when you are utterly and exhaustively uninformed? What sort of disease is liberalism where 'how I feel about the subject' is somehow akin to a legitimate opinion in any way related to reality?

[Davgooner]

The proposals Obama proposed earlier in the year were overwhelmingly backed, even amongst NRA members. Unfortunately the money the latter provides mean the argument is often seen as 50/50.

[Davgooner]

Trump supporters are better educated and earn more than Clinton supporters you ignorant idiot:

Clinton supporters are fucking drones. Trump's whole movement has been built on winning over fucking idiots.

[Dquincy]

Just so fucking wrong, how do you confidently state opinions when you are utterly and exhaustively uninformed? What sort of disease is liberalism where 'how I feel about the subject' is somehow akin to a legitimate opinion in any way related to reality?
Anyone can also grab a weblink and state it as fact or to support their argument...like you do.

For example one of your links dates back to 2014. This link is more recent (haven't read it all)
http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-poll-majority-of-americans-support-next-president-pushing-tighter-gun-laws-2016-1

[Bartholomert]

Clinton supporters are fucking drones. Trump's whole movement has been built on winning over fucking idiots.

Okay I know you keep saying "Trump's whole movement has been built over winning over idiots" but even though emotionally you REALLY BELIEVE this is true, the facts point in the opposite direction. Do you get that? What you 'feel' doesn't supersede the reality that Trump supporters are more educated and more financially successful than Hillary supporters (who by extension are bigger idiots).

Are you capable of revising your opinion when confronted with facts or are you not at this basic level of maturity / intelligence?

[Bartholomert]

Anyone can also grab a weblink and state it as fact or to support their argument...like you do.

For example one of your links dates back to 2014. This link is more recent (haven't read it all)
http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-poll-majority-of-americans-support-next-president-pushing-tighter-gun-laws-2016-1

One poll versus analysis of decades of polling trends. It's not an argument. It is a widely accepted truth that Americans of all ages are increasingly in favor of gun rights to the deeply satisfying chagrin and mystification of the "liberalism is the inevitable end point of societies!" crowd.

[Davgooner]

I've been following the election closely from the start. His rallies resembles fascist gatherings, and his policies are such that only ignorant, easy-solution-seeking wankers are going to be drawn to supporting him. Are you really arguing this, given you normally spend your time on here confirming everything I've said. Post another vaguely homoerotic endorse of your messiah.

It's hardly a secret is it.

[Davgooner]

One poll versus analysis of decades of polling trends. It's not an argument. It is a widely accepted truth that Americans of all ages are increasingly in favor of gun rights to the deeply satisfying chagrin and mystification of the "liberalism is the inevitable end point of societies!" crowd.

The right often jump to the 'they're coming for our guns!' argument as a way to energise their base, as in most issues. The reality, which is tightening laws to close some stunningly stupid and dangerous loopholes, while not touching the rights of law-abiding gun owners, isn't scary, but would cost the companies the NRA represents money, and thus must be avoided.

I think the latest polling post-Orlando had 61% in favour of banning the sale of assault weapons, for example. On the issue of the no-fly list and the background check loophole, past surveys have higher percentages still.

[Bartholomert]

I've been following the election closely from the start. His rallies resembles fascist gatherings, and his policies are such that only ignorant, easy-solution-seeking wankers are going to be drawn to supporting him. Are you really arguing this, given you normally spend your time on here confirming everything I've said. Post another vaguely homoerotic endorse of your messiah.

It's hardly a secret is it.

Okay. I'll try one more time.

I know what you described is how you feel about Trump supporters. However, how you feel is contradicted by the fact that they are MORE EDUCATED AND WEALTHIER than Hillary supporters. Ergo, they can't be more stupid now can they?

A normal mature human being, when confronted with facts that contradict his feelings, revise his feelings to reflect the facts. You are wrong. Period. You can say 'lol Trump supporters are ignorant, idiot fascists!!!' but the reality is that means Hillary supporters are more ignorant and stupid than his.

[SvN]

What confuses me about that source you linked was that every candidate had supporters with a median household income higher than the US average. Am I missing something?

[Bartholomert]

The right often jump to the 'they're coming for our guns!' argument as a way to energise their base, as in most issues. The reality, which is tightening laws to close some stunningly stupid and dangerous loopholes, while not touching the rights of law-abiding gun owners, isn't scary, but would cost the companies the NRA represents money, and thus must be avoided.

I think the latest polling post-Orlando had 61% in favour of banning the sale of assault weapons, for example. On the issue of the no-fly list and the background check loophole, past surveys have higher percentages still.

1. Let's see where polling is a few months from now; and out of curiosity what is an assault weapon? Are you aware that 'assault weapons' are only actually responsible for a minuscule of the actual violence / crime caused by guns, here is an article to educate yourself, it is an entirely empty political proposal*
2. The no-fly list regulation is 1. Unconstitutional violation of Due Process clause; 2. Would alert suspected terrorists that they are under investigation
3. There is no 'background check' loop hole; google it
4. 1 + 3 are the purview of state legislatures anyways under separation of powers

*http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/sunday-review/the-assault-weapon-myth.html?_r=0

[Bartholomert]

What confuses me about that source you linked was that every candidate had supporters with a median household income higher than the US average. Am I missing something?

And Trump's is higher than Bernie's or Hillary's. Time to work on that reading comprehension buddy.

"The median household income of a Trump voter so far in the primaries is about $72,000... higher than the median income for Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders supporters, which is around $61,000 for both."

[SvN]

And Trump's is higher than Bernie's or Hillary's. Time to work on that reading comprehension buddy.

"The median household income of a Trump voter so far in the primaries is about $72,000... higher than the median income for Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders supporters, which is around $61,000 for both."


That's not what I asked at all. I wasn't refuting your point (lol at the idea of getting involved in this debate), merely curious as to how the median income of every candidate can be higher than the US median.

[Dquincy]

Bert, I think you're missing SvN's point.

[Davgooner]

I know what you described is how you feel about Trump supporters. However, how you feel is contradicted by the fact that they are MORE EDUCATED AND WEALTHIER than Hillary supporters. Ergo, they can't be more stupid now can they?

And yet...

I fucking hate Hillary's mob for a multitude of reasons and there would be lols involved in she somehow managed to use, but at least they're not fascists. The idea we should respect the views of the latter because of their educational exploits or salary is proper Republican talk.

[Bartholomert]

That's not what I asked at all. I wasn't refuting your point (lol at the idea of getting involved in this debate), merely curious as to how the median income of every candidate can be higher than the US median.

Poor people don't vote and are more likely to ineligible due to being felons/incarcerated.

[Davgooner]

Mert, in all seriousness, you been to any of his events?

[Lewis]

You wouldn't find any 'ignorant, easy-solution-seeking wankers' at a 'Bernie' event.

[Davgooner]

You wouldn't find any 'ignorant, easy-solution-seeking wankers' at a 'Bernie' event.

You might have some on the right who wish to portray them as such though. :henn0rz:

[SvN]

Poor people don't vote and are more likely to ineligible due to being felons/incarcerated.

That's one reasonable explanation.

But that doesn't make it fact. Perhaps people were inflating their income when asked during the exit polls. Perhaps the inferred medians aren't as accurate as the author thinks they are (given that income was reported as falling within a range rather than participants giving an actual value).

[Bartholomert]

That's one reasonable explanation.

But that doesn't make it fact. Perhaps people were inflating their income when asked during the exit polls. Perhaps the inferred medians aren't as accurate as the author thinks they are (given that income was reported as falling within a range rather than participants giving an actual value).

I mean maybe, but it's a pretty well established phenomenon that poorer people vote less, and that this is exacerbated further for primaries:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/income-gap-at-the-polls-113997

"It so happens that the gap between voters and non-voters breaks down strongly along class lines. In the 2012 election, 80.2 percent of those making more than $150,000 voted, while only 46.9 percent of those making less than $10,000 voted. This “class bias,” is so strong that in the three elections (2008, 2010 and 2012) I examined, there was only one instance of a poorer income bracket turning out at a higher rate than the bracket above them. (In the 2012 election, those making less than $10,000 were slightly more likely to vote than those making between $10,000 and $14,999.) On average, each bracket turned out to vote at a rate 3.7 percentage points higher than the bracket below it."

[SvN]

Yep, not debating that specific point, just suggesting there might be other reasons for the discrepancy in the statistics. It could be all three.

[Bartholomert]

Yep, not debating that specific point, just suggesting there might be other reasons for the discrepancy in the statistics. It could be all three.

Yeah, and tbh Americans lie / exaggerate like motherfuckers when it comes to their income, I wouldn't be surprised if the figures were therefore inflated...

[SincereTheRebel]

Not really a mass shooting. but a one man execution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36721584


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOH9Ltcoqis

[Magic]

Mental. It's like a parody you'd see on Family Guy with Cleveland and racist cops except it's real life and it's funnier.

Than Family Guy I meant. Oh...oh God.

[Pepe]

I bet he gave them sass.

[Magic]

"He's got a gun!" = carte blanche.

[Pepe]

I feared for my life!

Walks free.

[Magic]

"I probably would blow up a subway if I was offered $100m"

Jailed for 35 years for conspiracy to commit terrorism.

[bruhnaldo]

Yeah, and tbh Americans lie / exaggerate like motherfuckers when it comes to their income, I wouldn't be surprised if the figures were therefore inflated...

What kinda dipshitted comment is this to make?

[Bartholomert]

Not really a mass shooting. but a one man execution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36721584


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOH9Ltcoqis

Convicted drug dealer and sex offender, resisting arrest after committing crime, had been tasered twice, yelled "I'm going to kill you", had an illegal gun on his person, was warned "don't reach for your gun", he then proceeded to reach for his gun, and got shot.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I don't know what else you want the cop to do in that situation.

[Bernanke]

Let's try this again then. Not really a mass shooting. but a one man execution.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgtvop59kRI

[Pepe]

If he had a gun then... oh wait.

It's a really tragic state of affairs and I find it really sad that there are so many people that want to pretend there is not an issue.

[Bartholomert]

I mean statistically there isn't an issue, at least a racial one.

Not sure what the relevance of him having a gun is? A gun isn't supposed to be a tool to resist lawful arrest.

[phonics]

The fact that the NRA aren't going all, all out for this guy who stated he had an open carry permit, being asked to reach for his wallet and then being shot just goes to show that actually, it's not about gun ownership in the slightest.

[Shindig]

I mean, he's pinned to the ground. Any shot's going to fuck him up at point blank. Let alone the four-ish we heard.

[phonics]

I was talking about the other guy. Phil Castille. Stopped for a broken tail light, keeps hands up, officer asks him to show registration, he informs cop he has a carry permit multiple times, reaches for his wallet, dead. From the video it sounds like the cop thought he was genuinely reaching which just goes to show how much these cops are hyped to shoot the fuck out of someone.

Who gets stopped for a broken taillight, tells the cop they have a gun and then goes 'Ya know I should kill this guy'.

[Bartholomert]

How hard is it to follow explicit instructions? Police officers have a right to protect themselves.

[phonics]

How hard is it to follow explicit instructions? Police officers have a right to protect themselves.

Which instruction would you like him to follow? License and Registration please?

[John]

How hard is it to follow explicit instructions? Police officers have a right to protect themselves.

As do citizens. If a police officer is intimidating and you see him reaching for his gun, as often seems to be the case according to the video coming out of the US just about every day, should you be able to shoot him dead?

[Bartholomert]

I mean, he's pinned to the ground. Any shot's going to fuck him up at point blank. Let alone the four-ish we heard.

He's still struggling, they have not been able to restrain him and he attempts to reach for his gun. What do you want the officer to do there?

[Bartholomert]

As do citizens. If a police officer is intimidating and you see him reaching for his gun, as often seems to be the case according to the video coming out of the US just about every day, should you be able to shoot him dead?

Police officers don't just resort to lethal force out of the blue, there is an escalating hierarchy of physical responses they're supposed to employ proportional to the threat posed by the suspect. If you're not threatening the police, you have nothing to worry about.

If the police says something, you do it. If he's overstepped his authority you can contest that in the courts. That's how a civilized society operates.

[phonics]

Police officers don't just resort to lethal force out of the blue, there is a hierarchy of physical responses they're supposed to employ before had proportional to the threat posed by the suspect.

If the police says something, you do it. If he's overstepped his authority you can contest that in the courts. That's how a civilized society operates.

You can't contest it if he's put 4 bullets in your side and you're dead because of it.

[Bartholomert]

You can't contest it if he's put 4 bullets in your side and you're dead because of it.

Which is why you don't resist arrest and follow the instructions given to you. It's not that difficult.

[John]

Police officers don't just resort to lethal force out of the blue, there is an escalating hierarchy of physical responses they're supposed to employ proportional to the threat posed by the suspect. If you're not threatening the police, you have nothing to worry about.

If the police says something, you do it. If he's overstepped his authority you can contest that in the courts. That's how a civilized society operates.

In that second video upthread the police officer tells him to get his wallet then shoots him through the window of the car when he reaches for it. He's dead.

[phonics]

Mert, not sure if you know this but a broken tail light isn't an arrestable offence and he did follow instructions.

This is the disconnect I'm talking about, this guy is a card carrying NRA member with a completely legal open carry permit, he is in a car with his wife and daughter, he informs the police officer of the presence of a gun, he proceeds to follow the police request for registation. He's shot 4 times.

What happens there where Mert is attacking this guy. This guy is Merts dream of an American citizen using his rights, and he's shot to death in front of his family for it and Mert and co attack him. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Oh wait, he's black. I get it.

[Bartholomert]

Okay no one in this thread knows how exactly that interaction escalated. I'm pretty sure the officer would have a different version of events; believe it or not cops don't want to have their entire lives ruined either.

Also a broken taillight is an arrestable offense; see Atwater v. City of Lago Vista (2001).

[phonics]

I'm pretty sure there's a slight difference in quality of life between getting paid leave for 3 months while a grand jury fails to indite you and being dead.

PS. Lol at Mert telling us exactly how every one of these issues happened and then follows this one up with 'we can't be sure'

Fuck off you troll.

[Bartholomert]

I'm pretty sure there's a slight difference in quality of life between getting paid leave for 3 months while a grand jury fails to indite you and being dead.

His life will never be normal again because of the Internet lynch mobs. Sure it's not as bad as dying (which is why he acted the way he did in the first place), but it's definetly not an ordeal anybody would want to go through.

[Bartholomert]

I'm pretty sure there's a slight difference in quality of life between getting paid leave for 3 months while a grand jury fails to indite you and being dead.

PS. Lol at Mert telling us exactly how every one of these issues happened and then follows this one up with 'we can't be sure'

Fuck off you troll.

In the Baton Rouge video, the evidence is in the recording itself. My statements are based on evidence derived from the public record. In the second video filming only starts after the shootings; you can't claim to know the sequence of events. The timeline of these incidents often ultimately end up being very different than initial reported (see the Michael Brown 'hands up don't shoot' narrative); it is better to suspend judgment until the facts are clear.

[Pepe]

I always tell myself that you are not that stupid and that it is all this lame persona you try to carry around. But then I remember that you are American and I'm not so sure anymore, you could be this stupid, most of your compatriots are after all.

[Bartholomert]

Look shit is fucked up, police are human and make mistakes, but they are under unimaginable stress and deal with the lowest scumbags in society every day. People need to recognize this and be overly compliant and respectful to make their job easier. I have dealt with asshole Durham cops who hate Duke students many times. Regardless, I will give them the benefit of the doubt every time under these circumstances.

The reality is if you haven't committed a crime you have nothing to worry about. Your Constitutional protections will ensure that your legal liability will be aptly limited and the officer punished if he goes beyond certain relatively strict boundaries.

[Bartholomert]

I always tell myself that you are not that stupid and that it is all this lame persona you try to carry around. But then I remember that you are American and I'm not so sure anymore, you could be this stupid, most of your compatriots are after all.

How is 'being smart' working out for every other country on earth with inferior standards of living and military power?

[Bernanke]

Your Constitutional protections will ensure that your legal liability will be aptly limited and the officer punished if he goes beyond certain relatively strict boundaries.

Let's revisit this statement when the verdict comes in this latest case.

[GS]

There is a clear and institutional problem with firearm use by US police.

What there isn't is any willingness to recognise it's an issue by the people who could do something about it.

It's a country you should probably avoid at this stage, given it's completely fucking batshit.

[Bartholomert]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/datablog/2015/oct/15/how-many-police-officers-harmed-line-of-duty

"Since 2010, 11 officers of the Metropolitan police have lost their lives in the line of duty."

So about 2.2 police officers are killed per year in the UK.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/

"A total of 1,439 law enforcement officers died in the line of duty during the past 10 years, an average of one death every 61 hours or 144 per year."

Compared to an average of 144 police officers killed per year in the US.

Population of UK is roughly 60 million and the population of the US is roughly 300 million. That means that proportionally there should be about 10 deaths in the US per year if cops were killed at the same rate as in the UK. Instead it's 144; nearly FIFTEEN TIMES higher than expected.

How do you expect them to act in such an environment?

[John]

Now some wanker's been shooting police officers in Dallas.

[7om]

CNN are reporting four cops shot, one dead. Fuck me, this is mental.

[7om]

Now ten shot, three critical, three dead. A fucking sniper apparently.

I might not go outside for a while.

[John]

Beyonce paused her concert in Glasgow tonight to put up a screen full of names of American police brutality victims as well. Good timing. Get the dead policemen up there next you fucking wench.

[Magic]

The shooter will be a liberal student white apologist.

[7om]

Some nerd on reddit has been listening to the police radio and apparently the shooter is black.

Civil war :drool:

[ItalAussie]

That's horrifying. I have a friend who was going to school in DC during the Beltway sniper attacks. Apparently it's utterly nerve-racking to know that every time you step outside, you could be at risk.

[7om]

https://twitter.com/dallaspd/status/751262719584575488

[Queenslander]

Open carry. :drool:

[John]

Look a little down that conversation chain and Brian Redban has posted a photo of him. That's a serious weapon that bloke is carrying.

[Queenslander]

It's clearly a tool for hunting Elk.

[7om]

How mental is that?

A geezer is walking down the street with a massive assault rifle strapped over his shoulder and that is okay under open carry laws. Alright, a pistol for home self defense but fucking hell what has it come to that this is permissible? The U.S. States south of Virginia genuinely scare me.

[John]

Four officers dead.

[Bob Sacamano]

That dude is in this video the whole time while shots are being fired

https://twitter.com/dallasnewsphoto/status/751235966505881600

[7om]

Holy shit you're right. I wonder if there were more shots fired after this video was filmed?

[John]

Yeah that conversation chain had him convicted and exonerated within about ninety seconds. Now people are kicking off because some reports have said one of the shooters was white and they only posted a picture of a black man. This is going to get much worse before it gets better.

Doesn't seem like there are any shots being fired in that video though. The noise is just the wind hitting the phone mic.

Get John Luther in. His magic thinking sorted out someone sniping police in two hours.

[John]

751271541459984384

God help them if that bloke who's turned himself in leaves with so much as a burst lip.

[Queenslander]

Whoopsy doodle

[Spoonsky]

I'm getting the fuck outta here.

[Spikey M]

If only the policemans guns had guns.

[Shindig]

He's still struggling, they have not been able to restrain him and he attempts to reach for his gun. What do you want the officer to do there?

Taze, choke him out? Anything that doesn't involve shooting him in the head from six inches. You cannot arrest a corpse.

[Spikey M]

That 2nd Amendment must be looking pretty good to all those WASPs right now.

[Lee]

It's nice to see that the Americans can still out-retard us even after the couple of weeks we've had. Cheers, guys.

[SincereTheRebel]

The freedom fighters out there are causing chaos.

[Magic]

Really though this is shit.

[Lee]

A fifth copper has died. Looks like they're now going in on the last remaining suspect. Wonder how many times he'll fall over in custody.

[Raoul Duke]

It's basically at the point now where it resembles a 3rd-world country in some parts

[Byron]

A fifth copper has died. Looks like they're now going in on the last remaining suspect. Wonder how many times he'll fall over in custody.

Those flights of stairs can be tricky I hear.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This seems a great example of why the state shouldn't have a monopoly of lethal force. Any American can have a dream that through hard work and talent, they too might gun down a series of innocent people.

[GS]

Just close that country down, for fuck sake. Horrible place.

[phonics]

Just close that country down, for fuck sake. Horrible place.

Oh shut up.

[GS]

What's wrong now? :harold:

[phonics]

What makes it a horrible place that needs shutting down?

[Jimmy Floyd]

We should be shutting down China first, among others.

[Bartholomert]

Fucking animals. Officers getting shot at while trying to protect the people protesting them.

But yes let's keep irresponsibly promoting false narratives and villifying the police, what could possibly go wrong? Obamas America in full display folks, Trump needs to be president.

There is a lot more I would like to say but won't because I would immediately be banned. There is clearly a side of good and reason and a side of evil and irrationality; I'll leave it at that.

[SincereTheRebel]

Civilians feel police are shooting them unfairly. Now the police feel civilians are shooting at them unfairly. Sounds fair if you ask me.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Doesn't help when you spend 250 years promoting such a divide, the first 100 through enforced subservience.

[GS]

What makes it a horrible place that needs shutting down?

For fuck sake.

[phonics]

For fuck sake.

My turn. What's wrong now?

[GS]

You don't have to take everything literally, you know.

[phonics]

More the 'Horrible Country' bit which I legitimately cannot understand.

[GS]

You can buy a gun with the weekly shopping - and the legislative bodies aren't prepared to do anything to stop it - and the state routinely put people to death. That there's a thoroughly unpleasant current of racism running through certain sections of the country is also evident.

[Queenslander]

Fucking animals. Officers getting shot at while trying to protect the people protesting them.

But yes let's keep irresponsibly promoting false narratives and villifying the police, what could possibly go wrong? Obamas America in full display folks, Trump needs to be president.

There is a lot more I would like to say but won't because I would immediately be banned. There is clearly a side of good and reason and a side of evil and irrationality; I'll leave it at that.

I here ya mate, fucking black cunts and their savagery.

[Bartholomert]

Civilians feel police are shooting them unfairly. Now the police feel civilians are shooting at them unfairly. Sounds fair if you ask me.

You're a fucking savage, this is exactly the attitude I'm referring to above.

Those cops were INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS TASKED TO PROTECT THE CITIZENRY. The people shot by the cops were CRIMINALS RESISTING ARREST AND REFUSING TO COMPLY WITH LAWFUL ORDERS.

If you can't tell the difference, stay out of my country.

[Shindig]

Broken taill lights do not warrant a gunshot.

[Bartholomert]

You can buy a gun with the weekly shopping - and the legislative bodies aren't prepared to do anything to stop it - and the state routinely put people to death. That there's a thoroughly unpleasant current of racism running through certain sections of the country is also evident.

It's the entire country, some regions are simply more politically correct in their public speech than others, and it goes both ways. I don't know what the solution is or if it's a problem that can ever be fixed

[ItalAussie]

Nobody is condoning lethal force being used against the police, just like nobody is condoning the police use of lethal force in situations that aren't explicitly life-threatening.

Both sides should stop painting the other as their worst proponents.

[Bartholomert]

Broken taill lights do not warrant a gunshot.

Do mistakes happen; YES. Do they happen statistically to both races in a roughly comparable fashion; YES. Do we know the details of that particular interaction; NO!!!!

Second Amendment groups are already calling for an independent investigation:

https://reason.com/blog/2016/07/07/second-amendment-foundation-calls-for-in?platform=hootsuite

[SincereTheRebel]

If the law feels it is justified doing what they do over and over again. They have to answer to the freedom fighters who feel otherwise.

That is purely the reason the decision was made to live in england, instead of america.

[phonics]

NRA still silent.

[ItalAussie]

Do they happen statistically to both races in a roughly comparable fashion; YES.
I could believe that, but I'd like to see the numbers first.

There's also the issue that laws aren't always enforced identically. Marijuana use is the typical case:

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/marijuana_use_rate_by_race_year.pnghttps://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/marijuana_arrest_rates_by_race_year.png

(source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/)

It doesn't matter which way you cut those numbers, the massive disproportion suggests that there's inaccurate profiling going on in enforcement, which means that even if lethal accidents occur with equal probability in every case, it will naturally follow that it occurs in a racially disproportionate fashion.

EDIT: I'm not claiming that the profiling consists of deliberate acts of racism, incidentally.

[Bartholomert]

NRA still silent.

NRA as policy doesn't comment on incidents until the facts come out. Black or white.

[Bartholomert]

I could believe that, but I'd like to see the numbers first.

There's also the issue that laws aren't always enforced identically. Marijuana use is the typical case:

https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/marijuana_use_rate_by_race_year.pnghttps://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/06/marijuana_arrest_rates_by_race_year.png

(source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/)

It doesn't matter which way you cut those numbers, the massive disproportion suggests that there's inaccurate profiling going on in enforcement, which means that even if lethal accidents occur with equal probability in every case, it will naturally follow that it occurs in a racially disproportionate fashion.

Drug dealers vs. recreational users.

And I'm at work so don't have time to really find the sources but the short version:

2x more white people than AA killed by cops per year, 4x more white people in America, white people commit per capita 1/2x the crime, per police interaction roughly comparable rate of lethal interaction.

[SvN]

You're a fucking savage, this is exactly the attitude I'm referring to above.

Those cops were INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS TASKED TO PROTECT THE CITIZENRY. The people shot by the cops were CRIMINALS RESISTING ARREST AND REFUSING TO COMPLY WITH LAWFUL ORDERS.

If you can't tell the difference, stay out of my country.

Ignoring the insults, I'm in agreement with Mert here. The "they shot us, so we're shooting them" mentality is no different to terrorism.

[ItalAussie]

Drug dealers vs. recreational users.

And I'm at work so don't have time to really find the sources but the short version:

2x more white people than AA killed by cops per year, 4x more white people in America, white people commit per capita 1/2x the crime, per police interaction roughly comparable rate of lethal interaction.
I don't see how dealers verses recreational users affects those numbers? I'm open to an explanation though.

As for the rest, I'm going to have to see the numbers before I take your word on the details. I believe the first two points you made, but I'd like to see the precise wording on "committing the crime" as opposed to "number of police interactions". As well as the racial spread on crimes verses arrests, like the numbers above.

I'd really like to see racial disparity on actually committing the crime, as opposed to being charged for it, for a range of crimes. Like the figures above. Because that's where I'd suspect the real problem is. Those numbers above are undeniably a problem, whatever their cause happens to be.

[ItalAussie]

Another problem that seems to occur in the US system is that police get an easier run through the justice system when charges are brought. Police officers have built-in protections within the system, and the conviction rate is known to be particularly low even when that is taken into consideration.

To be honest, I think it should go the other way. If you are in a position of authority and you abuse that position, you should face harsher consequences. Not only have you committed a crime, but you've done it from a position of power which is required for society to function. Orderly society needs us to trust police to act appropriately, and eroding that trust has to be treated as a serious issue.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There are so many grey areas though. Maybe less so in America where they are more trigger happy than elsewhere, and I'm not saying that as a piss take, they just are.