Veganism

[Dquincy]

Hello.

How are you all?

My wife has recently become a vegan, in the dietary sense. What are your views on veganism? Would any of you do it?

I can see valid arguaments for becoming vegan; health reasons, animal agriculture being unsustainable, the poor welfare/killing of the animals. However, I just can't see myself doing it.

[Lewis]

I could probably ditch meat if I had to, like if I had one of those loser shitting conditions that was aggravated by it, but if I had to give up dairy products and eggs and that as well then I would just live with the pain.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Same as anything else. Good luck to you if you want to do it, but bad luck to you if you try to force it on anyone else (including your children).

It seems to be very much a theatre of war in the New Authoritarianism though so I'm preparing to make a meat'n'cheese barricade at the front door.

[Shindig]

I love meat too much but would adapt if we wound up in a Verhoeven vision of the future.

[SvN]

Go on then, what are the valid reasons for becoming a vegan? Because those that you've listed in your first post aren't really valid.

[-james-]

Being vegetarian is incredibly easy. Vegan, fuck no.

[Magic]

Even vegetarianism is hard and requires planning and effort.

[Pepe]

I can see valid arguaments for becoming vegan; health reasons, animal agriculture being unsustainable, the poor welfare/killing of the animals. However, I just can't see myself doing it.

Health reasons? Definitely not, unless your idea of not being a vegan is eating in McDonalds every day. Animal agriculture does generate more greenhouse gases than plant agriculture, so that could be a valid reason, although I doubt most vegans take other sustainable stances. Animal welfare is a lol argument. The alternative for those poor cows that you are not going to eat is mass extinction. Has anyone asked the cows what they prefer?

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Not a chance.

I doubt I could even go vegetarian.

[The Merse]

Been vegan for 6 months now. I've gradually been moving towards it over the past 4 or so years. I started consciously eating a lot more veggie meals initially, quickly moving on to never cooking with meat (only eating it out/with friends etc), then fully vegetarian about 18 months ago. Once I'd done that it made no sense to not go the next step.

As for the reason why - entirely ethical. No health reasons (indeed that's more of a ball ache in terms of micro-managing your diet), animal welfare and the environment behind it all, just as with my decisions over the years to avoid non-sustainable palm oil, reduce my paper consumption (oh how I miss physical magazines), reduce my plastic consumption. It's not a panacea for the worlds problems, but it's a step in the right direction to me.

[Magic]

Do you not find it hard to plan meals?

[The Merse]

Same as anything else. Good luck to you if you want to do it, but bad luck to you if you try to force it on anyone else (including your children).

It seems to be very much a theatre of war in the New Authoritarianism though so I'm preparing to make a meat'n'cheese barricade at the front door.

I do find this very odd. Would you level the same criticism at those in traditionally vegan/vegetarian cultures? I also don't really get the use of the word 'force' in this context... It's rather extreme a term.

[The Merse]

Do you not find it hard to plan meals?

I don't plan. I have staples in the house of course and I pick up groceries like any normal person and 99% of the time I decide what I'm eating of an evening on the way home from work/whatever I'm up to. It's not difficult. I do really enjoy cooking and being creative with cooking though, so that helps I guess? Also helps that I live in one of the hubs of vegan and vegan-friendly restaurants/takeaways/cafes etc so there doesn't need to be much planning go into that either.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I do find this very odd. Would you level the same criticism at those in traditionally vegan/vegetarian cultures? I also don't really get the use of the word 'force' in this context... It's rather extreme a term.

You can bring them up how you want, but if they then say 'I want to eat meat' and you coerce them into not doing so, that's abuse.

[-james-]

Even vegetarianism is hard and requires planning and effort.

It depends on what you're starting from. I've eaten meat twice since September but I very rarely had meat in the fridge in the first place.

[The Merse]

You can bring them up how you want, but if they then say 'I want to eat meat' and you coerce them into not doing so, that's abuse.

OK, that's understandable. For me, that's just part and parcel allowing children to develop their own morals. Of course your views will influence theirs, but they will develop their own unless they're morons.

[mugbull]

It's fine. It's definitely a trend, which is probably why a lot of you are shitting on it, but on its face I can see how it would make sense.

[phonics]

Go on then, what are the valid reasons for becoming a vegan? Because those that you've listed in your first post aren't really valid.

I'd say some of them are valid.

If I lived in India, I'd go vegetarian (not vegan) in a second. Anywhere else? Fuck that noise, the foods shit. I guess years of no access to meat give you a good grounding in how to go without it.

There's a vegetarian curry place in Walmley next to the family and I raid the place every time I check in. It looks like a greasy spoon cafe but I swear I've never had better food.

edit: I'd also say Jimmy calling it abuse is a bit much.

P.S. Bean Burgers are better than actual burgers. And cheaper.

[randomlegend]

My girlfiend is a pescetarian and I whilst I wouldn't chose to, I could do that or vegetarian fairly comfortably. I quite often cook the same for both of us when we are eating together and really enjoy a lot of it. Long-term I'd definitely miss meat, though.

Not a chance I could handle being vegan.

[The Merse]

It's fine. It's definitely a trend, which is probably why a lot of you are shitting on it, but on its face I can see how it would make sense.

There's an element of this in the past year in particular and the way that the growth of veganism has been quite exponential since 2015, where it ties into the whole 'raw' fad, but vegetarianism and veganism has been very steadily rising over the past two decades across the western world. That's a sustained trend, not a fashion/fad trend. For me, it's also symptomatic of the return of the politics of conscience.

[Yevrah]

Abuse is probably a strong word, but it's definitely shit parenting.

[Yevrah]

the return of the politics of conscience.

Er, what?

[Giggles]

Calling bean burgers better than normal burgers is the ramblings of a deviant.

Anyway, I could do vegetarian or vegan if it was for something like health reasons, but I don't think there's anything I give less of a shit about than the environment.
Anyway, the fuckers have got so militant lately that I'd probably just eat more meat as a two finger salute to them.

[John]

reduce my paper consumption (oh how I miss physical magazines)

I'm on board with veganism in general, it's not for me but I understand the arguments for it and each to their own. I don't understand depriving yourself in that way for the sake of a purely personal choice though. Those magazines are on the shelf whether you buy them or not, so if you're seriously missing them then why not?

I know you could say the same thing about chicken or shampoo or whatever, but printed media just seems different somehow.

[Baz]

How can you tell if someone is a Vegan?
Don't worry, they’ll tell you.

[Giggles]

How can you tell if someone is a Vegan?
Don't worry, they’ll tell you.

Didn't you use the exact same joke about Facebook before?

[Spikey M]

I could go vegetarian relatively easily, but anyone that can live without cheese is a pervert.

My daughter had dairy intolerance when she was born and I tried some of the vegan cheese she used to eat. Smelt like vomit, tasted worse. Thank Christ she grew out of it and can now smash down cheddar and Philadelphia like nature intended.

[Baz]

Didn't you use the exact same joke about Facebook before?It has many uses; electric car owners, rescue dog owners, grandparents with kids at Oxford, war widows, people who win on the grand national, etc.

[Dquincy]

Go on then, what are the valid reasons for becoming a vegan? Because those that you've listed in your first post aren't really valid.

This fella lists off a load of stats demonstrating how animal agriculture negatively impacts the environment. His stats are a little off by all accounts, but I think his points still stand.

http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/

[Mike]

They’re just king of the fussy eaters. ;)

[Giggles]

It has many uses; electric car owners, rescue dog owners, grandparents with kids at Oxford, war widows, people who win on the grand national, etc.

:D true actually.

[Disco]

I don't really buy the animal welfare bit (it's just a few animals, what else are you going to do with them) after all being tasty is about the best thing possible for any species. Does anyone believe we'd be short of, for example, tigers if they made great sausages? Plus going about your daily life impacts millions of different species, deciding not to eat three or four doesn't make a lot of sense from an 'ethical' standpoint.

[Spammer]

In an abstract moral kind of way I agree with veganism and would climb aboard the bandwagon. In practice though, I just can't be arsed. I don't know enough about food and can't cook that well, so veganism is a stretch.

Being veggie is pretty easy. Ms Hammer is veggie so I'm basically veggie myself (like this guy (https://bamfstyle.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/2013-02-26-06-27-14-pm-most3.jpg)), and with Quorn mince and sausage it's a piece of piss really. I don't like the restrictions that it places on you when at restaurants though, so I don't know if I could make a rule of it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I don't really buy the animal welfare bit (it's just a few animals, what else are you going to do with them) after all being tasty is about the best thing possible for any species. Does anyone believe we'd be short of, for example, tigers if they made great sausages? Plus going about your daily life impacts millions of different species, deciding not to eat three or four doesn't make a lot of sense from an 'ethical' standpoint.

They don't care about taxonomy though (or they would do more about species that are actually endangered, something that has gone weirdly out of fashion as far as I can see), they care about Steve the Cow's feelings. Same thing with these viral pictures you get of nasty American lawyers shooting buffaloes.

Veganism is basically narcissism meets food.

[Spammer]

How do you know what 'they' do or don't do?

Bizarre comment.

[Kikó]

I'm trying to be more vegetarian in my food choices and reduce meat intake as much as I can but I'm not militant about it. I think it's better for my well being so I'll reduce.

[Disco]

That's the bit that makes the least sense, Steve the Cow has an immeasurably better existence compared to any other non-farmed animal. If you're claiming not to eat them because you want to be nice to them then there's something wrong with your brain.

[Giggles]

Vegans: A great bunch of lads.

http://www.thatsfarming.com/news/dairy-farm-vegan-abuse

[Disco]

Look at these appalling conditions.

https://i.imgur.com/zrj1BBF.jpg

[Magic]

India is a disgrace though especially the antibiotic OF LAST RESORT saga.

[Reg]

On the morality discussion, it comes down to whether you believe the particular animals you're eating enjoy their life enough to warrant their existence for your consumption. The meat you buy varies of course, but some of the animals' lives are horrible and they couldn't possibly get any joy from them. In which case surely it is better - morally - for them to not exist at all. On the other hand, other meat comes from cows and pigs and such who roam free, joking with their bros and sises, are fed good food themselves, and don't have harmful chemicals pumped into them. In those cases, perhaps it is good that they exist so they can enjoy life (apart from the seconds or minutes they may suspect the time is nigh) and ultimately feed you?

[The Merse]

Look at these appalling conditions.

https://i.imgur.com/zrj1BBF.jpg

So, aside from the main driver for me being the environment and sustainability...

Dairy cows are made to constantly breed and then have their calves taken from them. Pretty simply, this is bare bones dairy farming - can’t get any species to lactate without a reason to do so.

So, they’re artificially inseminated as that’s the only efficient way to do it. Lovely, geezer pops his arm up the cows vag and pumps with the juices of a wanked off bull. Then when the calf comes they take it away and either cycle it into dairy production or... veal time.

Now, I’m not lecturous so this is the last statement I’ll make to this end. Once upon a time, ironically when serial dating veggies I did not give a rats ass for anything I deemed below I the food chain. I did support good conditions for the animals but that was it. At some stage doe the line, after reducing meat etc for the aforementioned concerns of sustainability, I then started to think a lot more about what I was eating and couldn’t stomach the idea of eating or exploiting animals (thy includes testing). If you can’t stomach that, then the dairy industry processes outlined above become equally unpalatable to many like myself.

[Disco]

Anthropomorphising much? The alternative is half the population starving to death, half of the rest eaten alive by predators and all of them being riddled with disease all the time. Animals on a micro and macro level are demonstrably better off if they're part of human agriculture.

Also, lol at 'being pumped full of harmful chemicals', think that one through for a minute.

[Lewis]

I post loads of bacon memes on Facebook and berate people taking the so-called 'vegetarian option' ('Eat somewhere else!') when I'm out, so I tend to sway aggressively the other way. If I could grow a proper beard I would be all over that as well.

[Pepe]

On the morality discussion, it comes down to whether you believe the particular animals you're eating enjoy their life enough to warrant their existence for your consumption. The meat you buy varies of course, but some of the animals' lives are horrible and they couldn't possibly get any joy from them. In which case surely it is better - morally - for them to not exist at all.

The main driver of, well, everything non-human species do is survival of their species. Deciding that their extinction is morally better than them having a shit life is just projecting. They don't care about the animals, they just feel bad when looking at those PETA videos so they want to stop it so that they don't feel bad.


On the other hand, other meat comes from cows and pigs and such who roam free, joking with their bros and sises, are fed good food themselves, and don't have harmful chemicals pumped into them. In those cases, perhaps it is good that they exist so they can enjoy life (apart from the seconds or minutes they may suspect the time is nigh) and ultimately feed you?

And then you're not being 'environmentally friendly' anymore.

[The Merse]

Vegans: A great bunch of lads.

http://www.thatsfarming.com/news/dairy-farm-vegan-abuse

Like any emotive cause it tends to boil over sometimes. I’m biased of course, but I’d encourage you to be more balanced in recognising/researching the instances of violence towards vegan activists.

Additionally, the so called militants aren’t representative of the whole. One of my best mates returned to Ireland to take on his dads dairy and lambing farms recently. We remain close, though he knows I’m opposed to his and his families profession.

As for the whole ‘how do you know who’s a vegan’ thing and the general attitude towards vegans as being oddball militants... it’s a six of one half a dozen case for me. From one side, of course anyone consciously objecting to a societal norm tends to be vocal on the subject, and this is true of pretty much any such cause. In tandem, those following the societal norm tend to lash out at those who object. As with many such causes I struggle to understand why it’s quite so precedent to rally against and ridicule my choices, but I do understand the (evolutionary) psychology behind it. I’m a threat because I’m different, but I also choose to believe, and have done for as long as I can remember, that a key measure of human progress is in rebuking against the more unsavoury elements of our instinctive psyche - not seeing people of another colour as threats as they’re obviously from a different tribe, not viewing those outside of societal norms as a threat due to the inherent threat of instability in a community caused by dissent, etc etc.

Going a little deep and probably talking some bollocks but fuck it, this train journey is boring.

[Pepe]

Anthropomorphising much? The alternative is half the population starving to death, half of the rest eaten alive by predators and all of them being riddled with disease all the time.

If we stopped eating cows we would just kill them all within two days. For factory ones, the equipment is already in place. Free-roaming ones would be taking precious agricultural land and thus wouldn't be allowed to stay there 'living the life.'

[The Merse]

Anthropomorphising much? The alternative is half the population starving to death, half of the rest eaten alive by predators and all of them being riddled with disease all the time. Animals on a micro and macro level are demonstrably better off if they're part of human agriculture.

Also, lol at 'being pumped full of harmful chemicals', think that one through for a minute.

Where did I talk about harmful chemicals? Edit- ah see that was Reg.

And yes, I understand. Obviously in an ideal world we’d ‘manage’ the population into something sustainable, due to the fact that we’ve inorganically created most breeds of cows now. But, basically they need to face the same challenges as other species.

Your assumption of the benefit to the animal is based on the idea that health alone is a measure of welfare. That’s bollocks as far as I’m concerned.

[Byron]

Veganism = fine

Militant Veganism can fuck off.

[Lewis]

'I’m a threat because I’m different'. Mate you've given up ham. You're not Martin Luther.

[Reg]

The main driver of, well, everything non-human species do is survival of their species. Deciding that their extinction is morally better than them having a shit life is just projecting.
In what sense? Because we know animals feel emotions, so surely not existing at all is better than having a dreadful life.


Anthropomorphising much? The alternative is half the population starving to death, half of the rest eaten alive by predators and all of them being riddled with disease all the time. Animals on a micro and macro level are demonstrably better off if they're part of human agriculture.

Also, lol at 'being pumped full of harmful chemicals', think that one through for a minute.
That's not the alternative. The alternative is that the vast majority don't exist in the first place.

[Pepe]

In what sense? Because we know animals feel emotions, so surely not existing at all is better than having a dreadful life.

Maybe for you. Has anyone asked the cows what they prefer? Is cow suicide on the rise?

[Pepe]

'I’m a threat because I’m different'. Mate you've given up ham. You're not Martin Luther.

A threat. :D

[Reg]

Maybe for you. Has anyone asked the cows what they prefer? Is cow suicide on the rise?
If they knew how to commit suicide then I'd imagine it would be in the worst cases.

You seem to be refusing to be realistic about some of the conditions and therefore lives.

[Magic]

Like any emotive cause it tends to boil over sometimes. I’m biased of course, but I’d encourage you to be more balanced in recognising/researching the instances of violence towards vegan activists.

Additionally, the so called militants aren’t representative of the whole. One of my best mates returned to Ireland to take on his dads dairy and lambing farms recently. We remain close, though he knows I’m opposed to his and his families profession.

As for the whole ‘how do you know who’s a vegan’ thing and the general attitude towards vegans as being oddball militants... it’s a six of one half a dozen case for me. From one side, of course anyone consciously objecting to a societal norm tends to be vocal on the subject, and this is true of pretty much any such cause. In tandem, those following the societal norm tend to lash out at those who object. As with many such causes I struggle to understand why it’s quite so precedent to rally against and ridicule my choices, but I do understand the (evolutionary) psychology behind it. I’m a threat because I’m different, but I also choose to believe, and have done for as long as I can remember, that a key measure of human progress is in rebuking against the more unsavoury elements of our instinctive psyche - not seeing people of another colour as threats as they’re obviously from a different tribe, not viewing those outside of societal norms as a threat due to the inherent threat of instability in a community caused by dissent, etc etc.

Going a little deep and probably talking some bollocks but fuck it, this train journey is boring.

Fucking hell. :D

[Pepe]

I know the conditions are shit. I just don't think any species would rather go extinct. Their instinct says 'survival over all,' so I assume they rather have survival over extinction. Then I again, I haven't asked the cows either.

[Magic]

Every time Merse comes back on here for a bit he seems to project an even more tragic version of himself.

[The Merse]

'I’m a threat because I’m different'. Mate you've given up ham. You're not Martin Luther.

I did mean to add a line caveating that so not to leave the door open to ridicule.

I’m not suggesting anyone is a threat. But it’s that psychology that can be attributed as the basis of the bulling of kids for wearing the wrong clothes, trans/gay-bashing, even schisms due to visible (more likely audible) accents of differing socio economic backgrounds etc.

[Reg]

I know the conditions are shit. I just don't think any species would rather go extinct. Their instinct says 'survival over all,' so I assume they rather have survival over extinction. Then I again, I haven't asked the cows either.
I kind of agree there. But again the alternative is really that they don't exist at all. So they wouldn't have the instinct in the first place.

[Pepe]

We should apply the same solution to the bottom billion then, because their life does look pretty shit.

[The Merse]

Every time Merse comes back on here for a bit he seems to project an even more tragic version of himself.

Alright mate. I might give the new missus the heave actually, as she’s cool and all that but It’s got a bit stale. Figure it best to do so before her and her family make my life a misery for 8 years and no doubt go on to weaponise my progeny to do the same thereafter...

How’s life? I’ve not been keeping up.

[Dquincy]

Where did I talk about harmful chemicals? Edit- ah see that was Reg.

And yes, I understand. Obviously in an ideal world we’d ‘manage’ the population into something sustainable, due to the fact that we’ve inorganically created most breeds of cows now. But, basically they need to face the same challenges as other species.

Your assumption of the benefit to the animal is based on the idea that health alone is a measure of welfare. That’s bollocks as far as I’m concerned.
I agree with the majority of what you’ve said in your posts; you’re pretty much spot on in my view. I think a lot of meat eaters (including me) are ignorant to animal agriculture and the potential health issues that come with it.

The population growth rate surely means something needs to give. Not in our lifetime, but certainly in the future as the demand gets even greater. That’s a shitload of cows to feed that lot.

1812 : 1.5 billion people
1912 : 2.5 billion
2012 : 7 billion

Still probably won’t become vegan however. I’m a terrible person.

[Pepe]

To reiterate, I do think that the 'environmentally friendly' argument for veganism is valid. As for animal farming, shit like silvopasture should be the way forward.

[Pepe]

As for environmentalism, it is probably better to eat locally sourced beef than quinoa, but lets not get too much into details.

[Disco]

That's not the alternative. The alternative is that the vast majority don't exist in the first place.

I mean in comparison to a wild species, for which conditions are orders of magnitude worse/'crueler'.

[Disco]

If they knew how to commit suicide then I'd imagine it would be in the worst cases.

You seem to be refusing to be realistic about some of the conditions and therefore lives.

Just out of interest, which conditions?

[Lewis]

Alright mate. I might give the new missus the heave actually, as she’s cool and all that but It’s got a bit stale. Figure it best to do so before her and her family make my life a misery for 8 years and no doubt go on to weaponise my progeny to do the same thereafter...

How’s life? I’ve not been keeping up.

Have a sausage roll lad.

[Magic]

Alright mate. I might give the new missus the heave actually, as she’s cool and all that but It’s got a bit stale. Figure it best to do so before her and her family make my life a misery for 8 years and no doubt go on to weaponise my progeny to do the same thereafter...

How’s life? I’ve not been keeping up.

If this is how bitter a veg only diet makes you I'll pass.

[Reg]

I mean in comparison to a wild species, for which conditions are orders of magnitude worse/'crueler'.
Yep, agree (in the majority of cases anyway).


Just out of interest, which conditions?
The kinds Merse spoke about. And things like this (http://naturalsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/n-FARM-ANIMAL-ABUSE-large570.jpg). There's no joy in that. (I presume. I've not researched anything that specific, and I'm not a chicken.)

[Jimmy Floyd]

Chickens don't feel fucking joy.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Being vegetarian would be bloody awful, don't even want to imagine how dull being vegan must be.

The girlfriend is vegetarian (briefly had her eating chicken and fish) and cooking meals is a pain in the ass a lot of the time.

[Reg]

Chickens don't feel fucking joy.
They may not feel joy as such but animals feel happiness, sadness, fear, grief etc.

[Dquincy]

Chickens don't feel fucking joy.

Studies have found they can feel pain, fear, and stress.

I also think it’s no coincidence that the one ‘meat’ that meat eaters often don’t enjoy is seafood, which often resembles its appearance when it was alive (still has its face, etc). You have no such issue with beef and pork dishes, and to a lesser extent poultry. We can eat those dishes without being reminded at the dinner table of what it looked like when being alive.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yeah so an absence of those things can be aimed for. Not joy.

[Magic]

Anyone watch the vids of the cow having its baby taken? You could see it was absolutely devastated. Shame.

Oh well, veal burgers for tea. :drool:

[Disco]

The kinds Merse spoke about. And things like this (http://naturalsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/n-FARM-ANIMAL-ABUSE-large570.jpg). There's no joy in that. (I presume. I've not researched anything that specific, and I'm not a chicken.)

Now are you sure you aren't a chicken? Have we ever had a mugshot? TTH deserves the truth Reg.

I think it's worth pointing out that isn't in this country, there are immensely tight rules surrounding how animals are reared (more than there are around domestic pets or children for that matter) and farms are inspected constantly. It is a myth that food animals in this country are kept in poor conditions, anyone claiming otherwise is either woefully misinformed or has an agenda of some kind.

[Disco]

Chickens don't feel fucking joy.

Have you not seen Chicken Run?

[Pepe]

Lewis, mate, I bet you couldn't look a fish in the eye and then dig in. I dare you.

[Lewis]

Less fish in the sea means lower sea levels, so I would feel compelled to eat him/her on ethical grounds.

[Reg]

I think it's worth pointing out that isn't in this country, there are immensely tight rules surrounding how animals are reared (more than there are around domestic pets or children for that matter) and farms are inspected constantly. It is a myth that food animals in this country are kept in poor conditions, anyone claiming otherwise is either woefully misinformed or has an agenda of some kind.
Yeah the UK is a lot better than America (to my knowledge) and elsewhere, but it also depends where you buy your meat / animal products and what you consider poor conditions.

[Giggles]

'I’m a threat because I’m different'. Mate you've given up ham. You're not Martin Luther.

:D which one of them said that?

I'm guessing Merse but I zoned out very early on in his waffle.

[Magic]

Has anyone ever looked at the lesbian Jack Sparrow and felt threatened?

[Giggles]

I never actually realised we had a live vegan headcase on here.

[Spikey M]

Going from ‘not all vegans are mental cases, I have a (presumably black) farmer friend’ to becoming the embodiment of Tumblr in 2 pages is good going.

[John]

Even that roasting div with the double barrelled French surname isn't as big a vegan headbanger as Merse here.

[Giggles]

It's early and I'm bored so I read back. Fucking hell Merse doesn't do anything for the whole 'vegans aren't crackpots' thing does he? I'd say he could justify any sort of dangerous behaviour towards people to himself in the name of the cause.

[Dquincy]

Plucky cow makes an escape for it.

http://news.sky.com/story/hero-cow-escapes-abattoir-in-poland-by-swimming-to-island-11255824

[Andy]

I am so far away from being a vegan or vegetarian but I am slowly cutting out meat and dairy products. I doubt I'll ever completely cut them out but small changes help.

It's mainly from a personal health view point, I'm filling meals up with less meat and more vegetables and trying to cut down on the dairy products. I've switched from milk to almond milk which lasts longer, fewer calories and tastes the same for the smoothies I make.

I've cut out 90% of the processed meat I used to eat, sausages, ham, bacon, burgers etc and that alongside the extra vegetable intake has made a real impact on my overall health.

I went from 15 stone at the end of 2016 to 12.5 stone in June last year when I made all these changes

I think a lot of people could do with thinking about what they put in their mouth, so much of the food industry is total shite.

[Giggles]

Health is the only reason for doing it.

It's actually sad to see so many fall into line with it though.




.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've gone in the opposite direction, increased the amount of meat, fish and so on, and just massively cut down on carbohydrates (to the extent that even when I go for a curry I don't want rice, naan or anything with it). I feel a lot better for it.

There is no reason for human beings in an affluent society to eat as much bread as everyone seems to.

[Dquincy]

"The meat and dairy substitutes industry could be worth $40 billion by 2020."

Not my words, Carol. The words of billionaire, Richard Branson.

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/richard-branson-30-years-shocked-by-mass-slaughter-animals

[SvN]

Artificial meet is only a few years away from hitting the shelves anyway.

[John]

Artificial meet is only a few years away from hitting the shelves anyway.

We've been having an artifical meet for years.

[Spammer]

Artificial meet is only a few years away from hitting the shelves anyway.

Yeah that's what I've thought. The way to end/reduce animals being killed will be by growing meat in a petri dish.

[Magic]

Fuck that sounds disgusting.

[Giggles]

It'll all just be like Quorn, but at about €50 for a 'steak'.

[Lewis]

According to some shit I've just Googled an average thousand pound cow will yield almost half of that in 'retail cuts'. Then you have the other by-products left over. Will it ever really become cheap enough to grow two hundred kilograms of pretend meat for less than you can raise and process a cow?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why would you want to reduce killing animals? Where else will they go? You're basically saying you want to make cows, chickens etc extinct.

If we were sniping snow leopards off clifftops for a steak then that would be one thing.

[Ian]

I'm in favour of getting rid of pandas. Useless twats.

I'd eat a pandaburger without hesitation.

[The Merse]

Why would you want to reduce killing animals? Where else will they go? You're basically saying you want to make cows, chickens etc extinct.

If we were sniping snow leopards off clifftops for a steak then that would be one thing.

Yes. Their populations need to be reduced. Of course rather than cull the fuckers you can just manage them onto sustainable population levels by leaving them to graze for years with a small population of bulls taken from those who are currently used to stud, coupling that with their natural breeding instincts (almost zero libido in the case of most bulls for instance), and that population will slowly ebb away to something more natural (not that there’s anything natural about most of the ‘breeds’).

[ItalAussie]

Like most people, I couldn't do it, but it doesn't bother me at all if other people want to. I respect people who take ethical stances, to be honest.

[Spoonsky]

My girlfriend is vegan. I think it's pretty cool for anyone to put their beliefs into practice in such a committed way (except for Neo-Nazis I guess), and I think for every loud and obnoxious vegan there are probably six quiet ones just getting on with things. I can't really fault the reasons for it either, the means of production for most of our food do seem at least a little fucked up, and the only thing that makes me okay with it is being able to ignore it. I could go vegetarian and I think I will at some point, but I'm not sure I could ever be a vegan.

[Pepe]

I respect people who take ethical stances, except when said stances are based on stupid premises.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Well I'll be praying for Steve the Cow as I sit at work today. May his body parts never end up in my McMuffin.

[Giggles]

Is never being born better than being killed?

[Giggles]

My girlfriend is vegan. I think it's pretty cool for anyone to put their beliefs into practice in such a committed way (except for Neo-Nazis I guess), and I think for every loud and obnoxious vegan there are probably six quiet ones just getting on with things. I can't really fault the reasons for it either, the means of production for most of our food do seem at least a little fucked up, and the only thing that makes me okay with it is being able to ignore it. I could go vegetarian and I think I will at some point, but I'm not sure I could ever be a vegan.

I'd say it's closer to 50:50.

[Dquincy]

Why would you want to reduce killing animals? Where else will they go? You're basically saying you want to make cows, chickens etc extinct.

If we were sniping snow leopards off clifftops for a steak then that would be one thing.

You're quite obtuse on this subject.

Their population would decline steeply, but that's mainly due to the fact that they're artificially overpopulated for the benefit of animal agriculture.

Add to the fact that many cows have a diet consisting of only corn and soy based food, to fatten the fuckers up. And then they're pumped* with antibiotics which studies have found directly affect your immunity to antibiotics through eating the animal.

None of that bothers you?

Edit: *fed

[Disco]

I love how medicine (when it's supposed to be bad for whatever reason) is always pumped into things, like they're Ben Johnson or something.

[Giggles]

Absolutely PUMPED into them.

[Dquincy]

Good point. It's not pumped in at all.

Still think the point stands.

To counter that argument, history has shown many doomsday predictions that have not come true. Maybe this is just one of them and none of us should be bothered.

[phonics]

Let's be real. It's not just medicine they put in there. Pump or no pump.

When working for DuPont my first week involved recording a sales pitch that would go to our various people who pitched M&S/Sainsburys/Waitrose to buy chickens from people who we provided services to. Our pitch was that our chickens would be heavier due to a patented enzyme that we inject into them that causes them to take on more water so would look heavier (and therefore cost more to the end consumer), despite all that evaporating in the oven.

It's not just medicine.

[Henry]

I completely see the ethical/moral arguments in favour of this stuff, and have difficulty in offering a rejoinder. I just like meat too much. :(

Also, if we're going to class veganism as child abuse, then many (or most) parents who feed their children absolute swill are also guilty of same.

[Giggles]

I completely see the ethical/moral arguments in favour of this stuff, and have difficulty in offering a rejoinder. I just like meat too much. :(

Also, if we're going to class veganism as child abuse, then many (or most) parents who feed their children absolute swill are also guilty of same.

I don't think anyone has ever disputed that. You regularly see criticism of people for it.

[Spammer]

Religion too. Let's not forget that.

[igor_balis]

I love ya Jimmy but any talk of parents "forcing" veganism/vegetarianism is the stupidest fucking bollocks argument ever. Especially when you're exactly the kind of pleasant One Nation Tory who'd be absolutely fine with parents enforcing other stuff on their kids in the guise of parental authority.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think there's a distinction to be made between exerting control over them for their own good (i.e. not letting them eat 100 Krispy Kremes a week) and forcing your opinions on them, whether those be diet opinions, political opinions, religious opinions, or anything else.

If moral relativism has gone so far that people refuse to make that distinction, then good luck with your shitty sprogs I guess.

[igor_balis]

I think there's a distinction to be made between exerting control over them for their own good (i.e. not letting them eat 100 Krispy Kremes a week) and forcing your opinions on them, whether those be diet opinions, political opinions, religious opinions, or anything else.

If moral relativism has gone so far that people refuse to make that distinction, then good luck with your shitty sprogs I guess.

I do see your point, but I think that it's quite a complex distinction. I also reckon that very few parents would match your own expectations - even more relaxed parents "force their opinions" upon their children, though obviously it varies between the soft power of osmosis and the hard power of strict rules. For the record I think you'd be a top, top dad, even though your kids would probably end up massive Tories. :gay:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Soft power is fine as you can't do anything about that. The worst parents in my experience are the militant ones, whether it's rich lefties refusing to send them to private schools even though it means their kids get a worse education, or the Asian you-be-doctor types refusing to allow them any freedom, or indeed the posho bastard ones buying them flats at 19 and refusing to let them experience any sort of self-making period or ever mix with the riff raff.

Well, I guess parents on drugs or who leave are worse than those, but you know what I mean.

[Spikey M]

There’s nothing quite like reading a discussion about parenting between childless people. Whatever you think it’s like, whatever you think you’ll do, bin the lot of it. I spent 20 minutes convincing my 2 year old to let me put her nappy on her at the weekend, never mind convincing her to eat her broccoli.

[igor_balis]

Yeah and I agree with all of that. I guess my perspective is that there's a grey area between hard and soft power for something like vegetarianism. I spose I think if you only serve your children vegan/vegetarian food (and like, you wouldn't ask a 5 year old what they wanted for dinner because that's mad), that's absolutely fine, but if they're like 14 and it's verboten even if they're getting lunch with their mates it's not okay.

Is refusing to sere anything other than vegetarian food / buy meat for a, I dunno, 12 year old kid who wants to eat meat exerting unacceptable force on the child? I'm not sure. What do you reckon Jimmy Floyd ?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yeah and I agree with all of that. I guess my perspective is that there's a grey area between hard and soft power for something like vegetarianism. I spose I think if you only serve your children vegan/vegetarian food (and like, you wouldn't ask a 5 year old what they wanted for dinner because that's mad), that's absolutely fine, but if they're like 14 and it's verboten even if they're getting lunch with their mates it's not okay.

Is refusing to sere anything other than vegetarian food / buy meat for a, I dunno, 12 year old kid who wants to eat meat exerting unacceptable force on the child? I'm not sure. What do you reckon Jimmy Floyd ?

I don't know what age the cut-off point is. Secondary school? I mean if vegetarian food is what is served in the house then fine, but coercing them into never going for a Maccies at the age when that becomes a thing is ridiculous.

There's a great scene in a film I watched 15 years ago and can't remember the name of in which Asian kids are rebelling and cooking bacon in the kitchen, then mum comes home and they end up concealing it about their person to avoid her wrath. That sort of fear is what needs binning.

[Spoonsky]

I'd say it's closer to 50:50.

That's because the quiet ones just get on with things.

[Panda Bear]

What the fuck is this discussion about veganism being some kind of cult diet imposed on children?

Parents moderate diets for their children. It's part of the job.

Aside from that, day-in, day-out meat eating isn't environmentally sustainable in its current form. I look forward to my meat coming from giant silos that grow meat from cultured animal cells.

[Panda Bear]

Just give me all my produce, dairy and meat from silos, cans and pods that are ten to twenty times more resource-efficient, involve almost no transportation, and don't require killing anything.

The best arguments for veganism are in animal ethics and environmental sustainability anyway.

[Panda Bear]

Also, I like that Jimmy had no retort for Dquincy regarding artificially inflated populations.

[Giggles]

Environmental :sick:

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Go away you awful, awful man.

Awful.

[Pepe]

Animal ethics. :harold:

[Jimmy Floyd]

Also, I like that Jimmy had no retort for Dquincy regarding artificially inflated populations.

No such thing as an artificially inflated population. Either they're alive or they're not. They're species who have succeeded by allying with us, in the same way that lychen and trees benefit from one another.

[Pepe]

All species will gladly 'inflate' their populations. That's their number one goal.

[Pepe]

How does the 'animal ethics' crew feel about enslaving dogs? Would they be better off having their freedoms?

[Giggles]

Go away you awful, awful man.

Awful.

Awful, you say?

[Pepe]

Does anyone want to talk GMOs? :eyemouth:

[Reg]

How does the 'animal ethics' crew feel about enslaving dogs? Would they be better off having their freedoms?
An average pet dog has a much more joyful (sorry Jimmy, I mean happier, I mean better) life than a farmed chicken that can't move without slapping another chicken in the face.

They'd be better off having their freedom if their conditions were awful, just like the worst kept cow or chicken would be.

[Dquincy]

There’s nothing quite like reading a discussion about parenting between childless people. Whatever you think it’s like, whatever you think you’ll do, bin the lot of it. I spent 20 minutes convincing my 2 year old to let me put her nappy on her at the weekend, never mind convincing her to eat her broccoli.

Your first sentance. I was going to say the exact same thing. :D

He eats broccoli though, providing I refer to them as "broccotrees".

[Lewis]

I tried releasing Brock into the wild during the summer and he just fell asleep in the front garden.

[SvN]

Your first sentance. I was going to say the exact same thing. :D

He eats broccoli though, providing I refer to them as "broccotrees".

Jesus, you're a parent? Poor fucker's got no chance.

[Panda Bear]

Does anyone want to talk GMOs? :eyemouth:Food technologies are great unless they're killing loads of birds and bees. The main issue is with the business practices of major players like Monsanto. The only draw to "organic" foods is that they tend to be locally sourced.

[Pepe]

Can't wait for Monsanto to start selling their lab meat. I'm sure that vegans will love it as much as their lab vegetables. Or is the plan to support the local, small batch biotech lab?

I agree with the above, btw.

[Panda Bear]

Animal ethics. :harold:Not killing animals > killing animals
Animals not living in dire conditions > animals living in dire conditions


How does the 'animal ethics' crew feel about enslaving dogs? Would they be better off having their freedoms?Given that my dog will get to do things she enjoys like go on walks, get treats and lick my face until she dies of old age (or an accident) rather than being slaughtered once she's ripe enough, I think there might be a difference between having a pet and raising livestock.


No such thing as an artificially inflated population. Either they're alive or they're not. They're species who have succeeded by allying with us, in the same way that lychen and trees benefit from one another.Livestock exist for their meat, eggs, dairy, fur, leather, and other useful giblets. If you define human societies in their current states as 'natural', then yes, you are correct that there are no populations with artificially high numbers as their populations are as high as they are to meet our demands. If you define human societies in their current states as 'unnatural' or 'artificial' given that they tend to thrive outside of the constraints of balanced ecological systems, then no, no you are wrong that there are no populations with artificially high numbers as their populations are only so high because we have manufactured an economic system that allows for livestock to exist in numbers without competition or ecological constraints.


An average pet dog has a much more joyful (sorry Jimmy, I mean happier, I mean better) life than a farmed chicken that can't move without slapping another chicken in the face.

They'd be better off having their freedom if their conditions were awful, just like the worst kept cow or chicken would be.Yeah.

[Panda Bear]

I mean, I'm having pork tenderloin tonight that was sourced from a major farming operator in my province. I'm not a vegan.

But it'd be better if the pork were grown in a cell culture rather than the pig, and that the pig didn't have to exist just to be killed in the first place.

[Panda Bear]

People who operate inside the vegan subcultures that intersect directly with other subcultures like yogis, paleos, spiritualists and don't trust "science" are all morons. You can get better quality produce from a specially-engineered seacan with perfect growing conditions than you can on a farm. You can let the farmers transition their lands to environmental reserves to preserve regional biodiversity, and the farmers can become the people who operate the seacans. Do the same with ranchers with your specially-engineered meat silos, and the world is golden again with locally-sourced, resource-efficient, cruelty-free foods.

I understand why people choose to go vegan for animal cruelty or environmental reasons (vegan diets tend to be locally-oriented), but if those people refuse to get on board with lab-grown foods, they're idiots.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Animal cruelty meat tastes so much sweeter.

[Pepe]

Shame that all that super-efficient lab meat is still nowhere near being a reality. Well, ten years away if you trust the scientists behind it. Then again, everything is ten years away if you ask the people working on it. We'll see how it goes. The fun part will be witnessing the mass hysteria when (if) it becomes a reality and one person gets diarrhea.

[mugbull]

Pepe making the 5th grader argument about 'enslaving dogs' while lolling off animal cruelty is the stupidest thing in a thread that should act as a reminder of how the socially awkward so often also tend to be the least pleasant and un-empathetic

[The Merse]

People who operate inside the vegan subcultures that intersect directly with other subcultures like yogis, paleos, spiritualists and don't trust "science" are all morons. You can get better quality produce from a specially-engineered seacan with perfect growing conditions than you can on a farm. You can let the farmers transition their lands to environmental reserves to preserve regional biodiversity, and the farmers can become the people who operate the seacans. Do the same with ranchers with your specially-engineered meat silos, and the world is golden again with locally-sourced, resource-efficient, cruelty-free foods.

I understand why people choose to go vegan for animal cruelty or environmental reasons (vegan diets tend to be locally-oriented), but if those people refuse to get on board with lab-grown foods, they're idiots.

The hippy thing is one of the past. The majority are frankly quite plain-ish, 20-40 something’s who’ve just swapped out meat and dairy for plants. Those in the ‘RAW’ camp are more likely to make a song and dance out of it, and talk about what’s natural. For me, as Gang of Four would say, Natural’s Not In It [the argument].

The Beyond Meat stuff which is available now and gives lab grown a run for its money by stripping back plant protein constructs at a molecular level to imitate meat, and which is somewhat famous stateside due to Bill Gates investment and TGI Fridays having recently added their stuff to the menu, will likely bridge the gap until lab grown is efficient for the conscientious consumer that can’t bare to not eat meat/something very meat-like.

Many vegans aren’t even on board with that, but it tends just to be those who’ve been doing it for years or who have for a long time been actively disgusted by flesh. For me right now, I’m looking forward to trying Beyond’s bleeding burger soon. It looks fucking incredible. But I don’t see why there’s a need to chastise those that can’t stomach the idea of eating something akin to that which they’ve considered so egregious for some time.

Unless you simply mean they’re stupid to oppose the idea that lab grown would eventually take over and negate the need for veganism? In which case, I’d agree.

[Pepe]

Pepe making the 5th grader argument about 'enslaving dogs' while lolling off animal cruelty is the stupidest thing in a thread that should act as a reminder of how the socially awkward so often also tend to be the least pleasant and un-empathetic

The point, which you would never get obviously, is that applying human ethical standards to animals is stupid. More importantly, saying that their 'quality of life' is shit, therefore we should get rid of them is the slipperiest of slopes imaginable. They much rather exist than not, but seeing them 'suffer' makes us feel bad, so lets just get rid of them. For their own sake of course.

Not that I don' agree with Panda's point that


Not killing animals > killing animals
Animals not living in dire conditions > animals living in dire conditions


but then if we all stop eating meat, that will lead to more animals being killed, not less. So we then have to choose whether life or quality of life is more important, and we haven't even gotten into the human side of it. Asking for cows to be treated nicely is all well and good from your Silicon Valley loft. Ask the farmer who will need to dedicate half of his land to cow-recess what he prefers, or the person on food stamps.

[Pepe]

Many vegans aren’t even on board with that, but it tends just to be those who’ve been doing it for years or who have for a long time been actively disgusted by flesh. For me right now, I’m looking forward to trying Beyond’s bleeding burger soon. It looks fucking incredible. But I don’t see why there’s a need to chastise those that can’t stomach the idea of eating something akin to that which they’ve considered so egregious for some time.

That is the part I never understood. What is the need to quit meat, but then insist on eating something meat-like? Vegetarian food can be delicious. I eat meat for like two meals per week at most, and I don't feel it is any sort of sacrifice. If I wanted to eat even less meat I could easily do so. Even then, if one day I just craved meat, then I would just go ahead and eat a piece of fucking meat. Not everything has to be all or nothing.

[Pepe]

Brb, gonna go eat my mealsquare.

[mugbull]

The point, which you would never get obviously, is that applying human ethical standards to animals is stupid. More importantly, saying that their 'quality of life' is shit, therefore we should get rid of them is the slipperiest of slopes imaginable. They much rather exist than not, but seeing them 'suffer' makes us feel bad, so lets just get rid of them. For their own sake of course.

Not that I don' agree with Panda's point that



but then if we all stop eating meat, that will lead to more animals being killed, not less. So we then have to choose whether life or quality of life is more important, and we haven't even gotten into the human side of it. Asking for cows to be treated nicely is all well and good from your Silicon Valley loft. Ask the farmer who will need to dedicate half of his land to cow-recess what he prefers, or the person on food stamps.

You said 'Animal ethics :D' and then compared dog ownership to factory farming of cows and chickens and whatever. Clearly you don't understand animal rights concerns or give a shit about them.

"Asking for cows to be treated nicely is all well and good from your Silicon Valley loft". Lit. You could make the same argument for allowing factories to pollute at will. We haven't thought about the human side of it!

[mugbull]

By the way, it's stupid to try to say we should all stop eating meat. But going full Republican and justifying the massive exploitation of animals by appealing to the food stamp people is so disingenuous.

[Raoul Duke]

Thought experiment: if they could make genetically identical, lab-grown human meat, would you eat it?

[Giggles]

Thought experiment: if they could make genetically identical, lab-grown human meat, would you eat it?

Depends on the price. Will it be cheaper than real human?

[Dquincy]

People who operate inside the vegan subcultures that intersect directly with other subcultures like yogis, paleos, spiritualists and don't trust "science" are all morons. You can get better quality produce from a specially-engineered seacan with perfect growing conditions than you can on a farm. You can let the farmers transition their lands to environmental reserves to preserve regional biodiversity, and the farmers can become the people who operate the seacans. Do the same with ranchers with your specially-engineered meat silos, and the world is golden again with locally-sourced, resource-efficient, cruelty-free foods.

I understand why people choose to go vegan for animal cruelty or environmental reasons (vegan diets tend to be locally-oriented), but if those people refuse to get on board with lab-grown foods, they're idiots.

Why are they stupid? Vitamin B12 aside, you can get most required nutrients from plant based foods. In fact, there is more calcium in kale than there is in milk.

Is it not a bit weird that we drink cows breast milk? That stuff is for developing a 100lb calf into a 1500lb cow. Don't see many people chucking back a glass of human breast milk or horse milk.

[Dquincy]

No such thing as an artificially inflated population. Either they're alive or they're not. They're species who have succeeded by allying with us, in the same way that lychen and trees benefit from one another.
But that quantity of species is only alive due to human interruption. Those cows haven't seeked us out to survive. We artificially inseminate them to increase their breeding levels to a mass scale way above what is 'natural' for their species.

It's like when the buffalo were nearly made extinct back in the late 19th century. The settlers went through some much buffalo, but they didn't have the knowhow back then to artificially increase the bufallo population, which nearly wiped them out. Went from 30 million bufallo down to 100.

[Magic]

I'm sure you're a different species, Quince.

[Dquincy]

A handsome one.

[Panda Bear]

People are stupid to reject food technologies that have vast environmental and ethical benefits on the basis that "it's not natural ohmagawd." Each and every person who believes cultured meat is some abomination is an idiot.

Pepe, were the meat industry as it stands to be outmoded by cultured meat, then a majority of the existing animals would likely be slaughtered for no longer being necessary as opposed to merely being slaughtered for their byproducts. Sunk cost. They'll die either way, but only one way perpetuates it.

But future animals can have a happy life on a much smaller scale because they'll only be necessary for providing cell samples.

[Giggles]

People are stupid to reject food technologies that have vast environmental and ethical benefits on the basis that "it's not natural ohmagawd." Each and every person who believes cultured meat is some abomination is an idiot.

Pepe, were the meat industry as it stands to be outmoded by cultured meat, then a majority of the existing animals would likely be slaughtered for no longer being necessary as opposed to merely being slaughtered for their byproducts. Sunk cost. They'll die either way, but only one way perpetuates it.

But future animals can have a happy life on a much smaller scale because they'll only be necessary for providing cell samples.

You'll deny millions of animals any life at all because you don't agree with the one they have? Play God much?

[Mazuuurk]

This is perfect for feeding the MELTDOWN fred. Oi Merse cows are shit and should be eaten.

[Spammer]

You'll deny millions of animals any life at all because you don't agree with the one they have? Play God much?

We play God anyway though.

[Disco]

You said 'Animal ethics :D' and then compared dog ownership to factory farming of cows and chickens and whatever. Clearly you don't understand animal rights concerns or give a shit about them.

"Asking for cows to be treated nicely is all well and good from your Silicon Valley loft". Lit. You could make the same argument for allowing factories to pollute at will. We haven't thought about the human side of it!

In this country at least I can guarantee you that there are more mistreated ogs than there are mistreated cows.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

But that quantity of species is only alive due to human interruption. Those cows haven't seeked us out to survive. We artificially inseminate them to increase their breeding levels to a mass scale way above what is 'natural' for their species.

It's like when the buffalo were nearly made extinct back in the late 19th century. The settlers went through some much buffalo, but they didn't have the knowhow back then to artificially increase the bufallo population, which nearly wiped them out. Went from 30 million bufallo down to 100.

The settlers went through them to try and kill of the Indians, they wanted to effectively commit buffalo genocide as the animal was everything (food, tools, clothes etc.) to them. Kill the buffalo, kill the Indians.

[Pepe]

Clearly you don't understand animal rights concerns or give a shit about them.

I do both understand them and give a shit about them. I just don't think that not eating meat for 'animal welfare' purposes is a particularly strong argument.


You could make the same argument for allowing factories to pollute at will. We haven't thought about the human side of it!

Except that we have thought about it. A lot. I think about it all the time. I have even written articles on it and plan to teach a course on it.


Pepe, were the meat industry as it stands to be outmoded by cultured meat, then a majority of the existing animals would likely be slaughtered for no longer being necessary as opposed to merely being slaughtered for their byproducts. Sunk cost. They'll die either way, but only one way perpetuates it.

I agree with that, if cultured meat ever becomes a thing, mass extinction of farm cows will ensue. I'm ok with it. I wonder if the animals rights crew will be.

[Spammer]

I imagine it'd be more of a gradual thing where it's either phased out and the cows are just prevented from breeding, rather than the farmer waking up one day and being like 'alright cows you're not needed no more so get in the furnace lol'

[Giggles]

I agree with that, if cultured meat ever becomes a thing, mass extinction of farm cows will ensue. I'm ok with it. I wonder if the animals rights crew will be.

I'd say the headcases have some grand idea that they'll live among us and roam free.

[Pepe]

The real question is: Why do we eat so much chicken when duck is way better?

[Disco]

Because they're easier to rear and have higher yields per animal.

[phonics]

And you get a secondary product from them.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Yeah because ducks don't lay eggs.

[Disco]

No you don't, egg and meat birds are seperate. Egg layers tend to go into animal foods once they 'retire'.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Duck feathers/down though.

1-0 ducks?

[Disco]

Sorry, mainly geese.

[Giggles]

Duck eggs are class.

[Dquincy]

The real question is: Why do we eat so much chicken when duck is way better?

Love a bit of crispy peking duck in a pancake roll. :drool:

[mikem]

The entire debate over unconscious biological imperatives (sorry, desires) vs conditions animal groups adopt in the absence of humans is anthropomorphic. The two are intertwined and humans are the only group implying the former from the latter. Animals are just acting on the immediacy of the latter. Unless I’ve missed the Revolutionary Fowl Biological Imperatives Council where they register volunteers for poussin duty and hold struggle sessions for those birds hanging on past six years old. It is all an x/y axis of human opinion.

[Mazuuurk]

Those are some nice words mate.

[Kikó]

That's Clarksonism.

[Giggles]

The bots normally post about logging into Gmail.

[Disco]

I'm pretty sure his name is Parkinson.

[Panda Bear]

Well, yeah. We're already playing God by making these animals breed on a mass scale so that we can harvest their byproducts.

My major concern with raising livestock is that it is a resource-intensive process. Factory farming/intensive animal farming may be more efficient than traditional ranching, but their animal welfare regime is far worse. Chickens may be stupid, but they still experience their version of emotions like "joy", "fear", and "stress". I would rather see factory farming become cultured meat production. There's no point for millions of animals to be born, ingest resources that could be better used, and be slaughtered when there's a more resource-efficient, cruelty-free process available. As Pepe mentions, the big problem is scaling the technology over the coming years.

Were cultured meat to be the norm, then the vast majority of meat would come from these facilities. Traditional ranching would become a boutique industry, and I am okay with this because it is likely that these animals will have high standards of living.

[Magic]

I don't mind vegetarian stuff. I aim to eat less meat. Had a clotted cream pasta dish with mushrooms and parsley tonight. It was good, but was crying out for some panchetta.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

Clotted cream in a pasta sauce?

Was it not heavy as fuck?

[Magic]

No, not really. Had 100g of Parmesan, bit of the pasta water, mushrooms, cornflour and butter.

[The Merse]

That is the part I never understood. What is the need to quit meat, but then insist on eating something meat-like? Vegetarian food can be delicious. I eat meat for like two meals per week at most, and I don't feel it is any sort of sacrifice. If I wanted to eat even less meat I could easily do so. Even then, if one day I just craved meat, then I would just go ahead and eat a piece of fucking meat. Not everything has to be all or nothing.

I don’t insist on it. Most of what I eat accentuates the veg. A small amount imitates meat to lesser or greater extent. But there’s a reason why. The food stuffs in the mock meat market are full of protein for a start, and as for those such as the Beyond Meat burger I mentioned, well, meat is fucking tasty and if you get close to it with plants then why wouldn’t you eat it? It’s not some kind of culinary role playing exercise, it’s just about taking a good formula for taste and texture and applying it with a different raw material.

[The Merse]

I agree with that, if cultured meat ever becomes a thing, mass extinction of farm cows will ensue. I'm ok with it. I wonder if the animals rights crew will be.

Again, why suggest a view that if you did any research into it, you would see is not apparent?

It’s well accepted amongst vegans that agricultural livestock will almost vanish. Save for a few grazing herds across moorland. Of course no one is up for mass starvation but no one is suggesting that - no one is yet even proposing managing the population into a decline yet, because it’s still too unrealistic an aim across the western world. There’s plenty of suggestion on the ‘how’ though, and that will become a proposal when a realistic view of the ‘when’ becomes clear.

[Pepe]

If it ever becomes clear.

As usual, I know that there are sensible people out there. Those won't be the ones shouting the loudest. Not that we'll get to see any of it, which is a shame.

[Panda Bear]

One thing I don't quite get. If everyone turned vegan, the farmers would need the land for veggies etc. If we released a shit ton of stupid fucking cows that eat the veggies. Surely the farmers are going to have to kill them right?

I tell you what, I proper hate cows. Got "attacked" by one once. Always smile when I eat a steak.

As I said previously, I don't really care if someone wants to go vegan. The thing is, you already know the people who are going to go vegan, because they get involved with whatever the "in" thing is at the time. Everything they say thereafter I struggle to find remotely interesting as you know it's just a bull shit story to fit the narrative.If everyone were to go vegan, then the animals either live out their lives or people commit mass euthanasia.* That's unlikely as meat consumption is rising around the world as it becomes available to emerging middle classes in countries like China and India.

If the world were to shift towards plant proteins and cultured meat, then cows and livestock would be phased out over time. Producers, large and small, would scale down "production" of live animals (e.g. increased sterilization, fewer opportunities to breed) in relation to their capacities to produce plant proteins and cultured meat.



* euthanasia is the practice of killing to relieve suffering--voluntary euthanasia takes the form of suicide or assisted death

[Disco]

I'm not sure it would be quite that simple, whoever perfects cultured meat it's unlikely to be cattle farmers. They'd go on for a good while selling into other markets and being propped up by subsidies (because farming) before declining or carving out different sectors of the market for themselves.

[Raoul Duke]

You'd probably get things going more organic/artisanal than now, where people would pay a premium for "real" meat.

I went to a place in Amsterdam the other day that offered "bugs" (I think it was something like crickets and larvae) as an optional bagel topping :|

[Panda Bear]

You'd probably get things going more organic/artisanal than now, where people would pay a premium for "real" meat.

I went to a place in Amsterdam the other day that offered "bugs" (I think it was something like crickets and larvae) as an optional bagel topping :|Absolutely this.

The more resource-intensive something is, the higher the price should be.