London High Rise Catches Fire

[7om]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40269625

This looks fucking grim. No word on casualties yet but they're saying some people are possibly trapped at the top of the building.

[Magic]

Terror?

[niko_cee]

Falling asleep while smoking more likely.

[Jimmy Floyd]

'Lives claimed at Grenfell Tower' is a fucking weird BBC headline.

Anyway, no fire alarms will mean a life sentence for the building owners.

[Dquincy]

Anyway, no fire alarms will mean a life sentence for the building owners.

Not necessarily. It will depend on their emergency escape protocol for the building; and whether it's a simultaneous evacuation or phased.

Relatively modern apartment blocks will have phased evacuation which means there are no communal fire detectors or alarms. Alternatively there would be an independent smoke detector in each flat and the residents would stay put until told to leave by the fire brigade or a fire marshall. But this is all dependant on there being sufficient fire compartments in the building and a fire risk assessment.

[Shindig]

If it's down to some Jihadi on the third floor mixing some chemicals, he might be off the hook.

[Dquincy]

Also, there should be a sprinkler system and fire fighting lift in a building of that size. Probably isn't tho.

[Bam]

Quin is some sort of health and safety officer.

[Kikó]

Tragic this. Those high rises are death traps.

[Spammer]

I've been in two minds as to whether I should bother getting my electric done in my new gaff. Might have to go or it. This has shit me up a bit and made me realise that fires are real.

[Reg]

Apparently people were instructed to stay in their flats because they were meant to be fire-proof.

[bruhnaldo]

Imagine living with that, telling people to stay in their homes and whoops now they've all died a firey, gruesome death.

Fuck.

[Lewis]

That area went Labour by twenty votes last week, and now a block a council flats burns down... Bit suspicious that.

[niko_cee]

I was wondering whether this was going to be blamed on cuts or an evil developer.

[Yevrah]

Just been listening to the Five live coverage and they keep talking about speculation on what might have caused it but won't divulge.

Any ideas TTH?

[Reg]

A cigarette like niko said. That'd be my guess anyway.

[-james-]

Twitter is split down the line. Apparently it was either Theresa May with a tank of petrol, or a dodgy fridge.

[Yevrah]

Apparently the fire spread far quicker than would have been expected, which surely points to arson.

[wullie]

They mentioned it being a fridge on the radio when I first heard about it this morning, but it was probably just stuff they read on Twitter.

[-james-]

I don't know how they could possibly have come to the conclusion that it was a fridge that quickly. If someone's seen a fridge on fire then presumably it doesn't get to the stage where it burns down a block of flats.

[Pepe]

Petrol can't melt steel.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I was wondering whether this was going to be blamed on cuts or an evil developer.

Apparently if the Tories hadn't cut the fire service they could have put it out quicker.

Pity Corbyn isn't PM really or he could have arrived on the scene and extinguished it with his magic piss.

[phonics]

Apparently the fire spread far quicker than would have been expected, which surely points to arson.

The reason for the rapid spread was a material put on the outside of the building to make it look nicer to the newly built flats in the area. Allegedly.

[Reg]

Apparently if the Tories hadn't cut the fire service they could have put it out quicker.

Pity Corbyn isn't PM really or he could have arrived on the scene and extinguished it with his magic piss.
I did have a smile at that. :D

I'm no fireman but I wouldn't think the success rate of putting out such a fire is too high. I'd try and avoid living in such a tall block if at all possible.

[bruhnaldo]

So of course talk in the office has been taken over by the resident NEW YAWKAH because everything is 9/11 and if you were in NYC at the time you were a fucking expert on building fires.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The reason for the rapid spread was a material put on the outside of the building to make it look nicer to the newly built flats in the area. Allegedly.
Yeah, and then there's the special flammable air that the Tories have installed in west London to make their Saudi friends feel more at home.

[Lewis]

The council leader did just look visibly pained referring to the eventual 'refurbishment'. The plot must be worth silly money.

[Spikey M]

No central fire alarm system. What the actual fuck? How can that be legal?

[Disco]

5 Live have had blanket coverage all day and haven't reported anything more than the fact that it burnt down and some people are probably dead. Whilst the final number is going to be quite bad they appear to be treating it like some kind of cataclysm.

[Dquincy]

Apparently people were instructed to stay in their flats because they were meant to be fire-proof.

That is the correct procedure for 'phased evacuation'. This is what all fairly modern apartment buildings have in place. But this requires 60 minute fire compartments between the flats and common areas.

[Dquincy]

Apparently the fire spread far quicker than would have been expected, which surely points to arson.

Nah, the spread of fire is more related to the surface spread of flame and fire compartments. Building Regs requires class 0 or 1 spread of flame for the installed materials and coatings. This means it will not go up like a catherine wheel in the event of a fire.

[Dquincy]

No central fire alarm system. What the actual fuck? How can that be legal?

It's actually recomended and it's a system which works very well providing there is the fire compartments. Sadly this doesn't seem the case here.

The cladding and its insulation within seems to be the main concern so far. Back in the day, cladding panels use to be insulated with polystyrene type material which was highly flammable. But this has been prohibited for years so I'd be surprised if this is the case.

[Mellberg]

Stay in your home. Fuck off. You should be listening to your survival instinct, not some shithouse telling you to duck and cover.

[Jimmy Floyd]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40280169

12 dead ain't doing the maths for me.

[Mellberg]

Still a few 'missing' aren't there? Where do they think they are? The Dog and Duck having a pint of IPA?

[GS]

Quincy's comments here certainly suggest that we're following the usual pattern. At the minute, we're in the phase where the media establish themselves on site and shove microphones in people's faces whilst internet warriors go off on rants about things they don't actually understand.

[Jimmy Floyd]

'Several hundred' in the building and 68 rescued are ominous numbers. Where are all the others.

Having said that, the Times front page that I've just seen is disgusting. Have some respect.

[Dquincy]

Stay in your home. Fuck off. You should be listening to your survival instinct, not some shithouse telling you to duck and cover.
But the problem with that is there no centralised fire alarm system for a building with a 'stay put' policy. So you might not know about the fire until it's too late.

[Dquincy]

Quincy's comments here certainly suggest that we're following the usual pattern. At the minute, we're in the phase where the media establish themselves on site and shove microphones in people's faces whilst internet warriors go off on rants about things they don't actually understand.
I understand. It's part of my job.

[GS]

I understand. It's part of my job.

You do. The vast majority don't. That's my point.

[Mellberg]

'Several hundred' in the building and 68 rescued are ominous numbers. Where are all the others.

Having said that, the Times front page that I've just seen is disgusting. Have some respect.

12 would be a miracle considering the circumstances.

Link to the front page?


But the problem with that is there no centralised fire alarm system for a building with a 'stay put' policy. So you might not know about the fire until it's too late.

Yeah, if you don't know about it until it's too late you're obviously fucked. I'm a deep sleeper so would definitely be at risk.

[Waffdon]

Ditto. I'd be fucked - especially if it's in the first few hours of me sleeping.

[Boydy]

Theresa May's chief of staff 'sat on' report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-chief-staff-sat-10620357)

Grenfell Tower residents say managers 'brushed away' fire safety concerns (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/fire-safety-concerns-raised-by-grenfell-tower-residents-in-2012)

[GS]

Theresa May's chief of staff 'sat on' report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-chief-staff-sat-10620357)

Grenfell Tower residents say managers 'brushed away' fire safety concerns (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/fire-safety-concerns-raised-by-grenfell-tower-residents-in-2012)

Entirely summing up, in one post, what I was talking about. People leaping to conclusions left, right and centre without any consideration for establishing facts.

[Yevrah]

5 Live have had blanket coverage all day and haven't reported anything more than the fact that it burnt down and some people are probably dead. Whilst the final number is going to be quite bad they appear to be treating it like some kind of cataclysm.

I heard a bit of that earlier and it was some of the most deplorable and grubby news reporting I've ever come across.

[Shindig]

Event x Importance = NEWS.

[Lewis]

The BBC news man was shoving his microphone into crying faces and going 'WHERE IS YOUR SON? HOW OLD IS HE?'

[Yevrah]

Where's the fucking link to that Times front page Jim.

We need to start dishing out warnings for prick-tease posts like that.

[Boydy]

Front pages - http://suttonnick.tumblr.com/

[Yevrah]

Thank you Boydy.

[Boydy]

Entirely summing up, in one post, what I was talking about. People leaping to conclusions left, right and centre without any consideration for establishing facts.

Yes, of course, the fact that the people who fucking lived there's concerns about fire safety were ignored, that's jumping to conclusions.

Fuck off and go suck some Tory cock, you absolute prick.

[Yevrah]

Well that escalated.

[GS]

Yes, of course, the fact that the people who fucking lived there's concerns about fire safety were ignored, that's jumping to conclusions.

Fuck off and go suck some Tory cock, you absolute prick.

Nobody knows what exactly happened, so perhaps we could wait for a spell before leaping in with the usual EVIL TORIES SIT ON REPORT or DESPICABLE LANDLORDS ALLOWED TO GET AWAY WITH IT BY TORY SCUM nonsense.

We've already had Jez trying to score political points before all of the bodies are even out of the building.

[Yevrah]

I don't really understand how the blame game works anyway.

Terrorist attacks on May's watch were meant to be good for her while fires aren't.

Faultless logic there.

[Boydy]

Oh here we go. "Don't politicise a tragedy." It's social housing. It fucking is political.

They can throw up cladding to protect the eyes of the rich cunts in the neighbourhood but that can't listen to residents' concerns about fire safety? Why not?

https://www.facebook.com/inthenow/videos/829657550517949/?autoplay_reason=gatekeeper&video_container_type=0&video_creator_product_type=2&app_id=2392950137&live_video_guests=0

[GS]

I don't really understand how the blame game works anyway.

Terrorist attacks on May's watch were meant to be good for her while fires aren't.

Faultless logic there.

The blame game is a waste of everybody's time. Something shit has clearly happened, and there needs to be an investigation into exactly why that was. If people need to be prosecuted and / or exposed for something, then fine. What I'm not having is people deciding within 24 hours of the first spark that there's some sort of cover up and / or it wouldn't have happened but for X, Y, or Z.

Nobody knows exactly what's happened, so perhaps we could wait for a bit before leaping to the same old lazy conclusions or desperately twisting stories to fit the narrative you want.

[Boydy]

Also, there's been piss all official help too:


“This has been a bottom-up effort from the community, people from the community just trying to find out where to bring stuff,” he said.

“In terms of any sort of local crisis response management, there has been no coordination at all as far as we understand. It’s been about centres like this coordinating with other centres and working out where to bring things. There has been very little top-level leadership.”

Locals’ anger and frustration spills out after Grenfell Tower fire (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/grenfell-fire-location-reaction-anger)

[Yevrah]

Who is he suggesting started the fire? Developers?

[Boydy]

Who is he suggesting started the fire? Developers?

I don't know. He's probably going a bit off the conspiracy deep end there, to be fair but he's just had his home destroyed so I can forgive him for being upset and angry. I was mainly linking to that for his point about the cladding.

[GS]

You're an expert on health and safety regulations now, are you?

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's the silhouette of the distressed person in the window (which the Sun unsurprisingly also carries) which shouldn't be out there. Total disgrace.

I can tell you for nothing (on the official help side of things) that all 'officials' will currently be devoting all their time to arse covering.

[Boydy]

Also, remember when the Tories voted against legislation to force landlords to ensure their properties were 'fit for human habitation' (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/full-list-landlord-tory-mps-130115642.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw)?

We're governed by a landlord class who see social housing as an inconvenience and who view houses as ways to further enrich themselves rather than as people's homes. Fuck them all.

[Yevrah]

It's the silhouette of the distressed person in the window (which the Sun unsurprisingly also carries) which shouldn't be out there. Total disgrace.

I can tell you for nothing (on the official help side of things) that all 'officials' will currently be devoting all their time to arse covering.

When you see that, I'm with you on both counts. Shouldn't be there and how the hell have only 12 people died?

[Raoul Duke]

Yes Boydy :rasta:

[Reg]

Fight the good fight Boydy.

[Boydy]

Here are some of the people involved in their own words:

875109518107193344

874931655148023809

[Lewis]

It's probably worth noting that councils fuck literally everything up before casting the local government as a bunch of Mr. Burns figures. The silly cunts round here recently put a bench up facing the wrong way.

[Pepe]

fuck off and go suck some tory cock, you absolute prick.

:D


the silly cunts round here recently put a bench up facing the wrong way.

:D

a

[Pepe]

We're governed by a landlord class who see social housing as an inconvenience and who view houses as ways to further enrich themselves rather than as people's homes. Fuck them all.

Damn right.

[7om]

Oh here we go. "Don't politicise a tragedy." It's social housing. It fucking is political.

They can throw up cladding to protect the eyes of the rich cunts in the neighbourhood but that can't listen to residents' concerns about fire safety? Why not?

https://www.facebook.com/inthenow/videos/829657550517949/?autoplay_reason=gatekeeper&video_container_type=0&video_creator_product_type=2&app_id=2392950137&live_video_guests=0

Why did you post this Facebook video link? Are you in agreement with the guy in the video? He seems to be suggesting that the fire was started deliberately as an excuse to get the towers demolished.

[Dquincy]

Oh here we go. "Don't politicise a tragedy." It's social housing. It fucking is political.

They can throw up cladding to protect the eyes of the rich cunts in the neighbourhood but that can't listen to residents' concerns about fire safety? Why not?

https://www.facebook.com/inthenow/videos/829657550517949/?autoplay_reason=gatekeeper&video_container_type=0&video_creator_product_type=2&app_id=2392950137&live_video_guests=0

The ironic thing is that the cladding has been installed to improve the aesthetics of the building, but more importantly it's been installed to improve u-values and thus upgrade it's thermal performance in line with current Building Regulations. Therefore, the 'evil landlord' has tried to improve the building. It's just a tragic shame that it appears the materials used and fire separation has spectacularly failed.

Edit: you can bet your bottom dollar those upper floor flats were bloody cold and suffering from condensation issues before the refurb works. I note this is all consequential after what has happened. But point remains they were trying to improve the building.

[Boydy]

My point was that they spent a load of money improving the external appearance of the building to appease neighbouring rich areas but wouldn't listen to or take residents' concerns seriously at all.

[Jimmy Floyd]

My point was that they spent a load of money improving the external appearance of the building to appease neighbouring rich areas but wouldn't listen to or take residents' concerns seriously at all.

A parable of 21st century London.

[Magic]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was some leftist cunt trying to make a point about all these stupid safety complaints as an I TOLD YOU SO.

[Kikó]

The ironic thing is that the cladding has been installed to improve the aesthetics of the building, but more importantly it's been installed to improve u-values and thus upgrade it's thermal performance in line with current Building Regulations. Therefore, the 'evil landlord' has tried to improve the building. It's just a tragic shame that it appears the materials used and fire separation has spectacularly failed.

Edit: you can bet your bottom dollar those upper floor flats were bloody cold and suffering from condensation issues before the refurb works. I note this is all consequential after what has happened. But point remains they were trying to improve the building.

Certainly warmer now.

*Buys ticket to hell*

[Disco]

Those evil landlords properly insulating their buildings.

[Spikey M]

Fucking Landlords, buying property and renting it out. Am I doing this right?

[Lewis]

Has that story about making the building look better as not to offend wealthy eyes been confirmed? They might well have wanted it to look better for their own rental purposes, but it sounds a bit odd that an apparently ruthless, corner-cutting property company would spend millions of its hard pinched pennies appeasing people who don't rent any of its properties.

[Spikey M]

You could get Gucci in to decorate the gaff, there is no way to make a tower block like that look anything but depressing.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm enjoying all the luvvie hacks pretending they know what 'cladding' is.

[phonics]

You could get Gucci in to decorate the gaff, there is no way to make a tower block like that look anything but depressing.

There's a set of high rises near us that's made out of sandstone brick that has vines wrapped round the outside. Seriously one of the prettiest inner city buildings I've ever seen. I think it's one architect who did a series of apartments in the area. I haven't got a pic of the high rises but the appartment next to it is lush.

http://i.imgur.com/i7xXgv1.png

[Magic]

Looks like an abandoned building from Planet of the Apes.

Silly twat.

[Yevrah]

People really shouldn't be allowed to make money out of owning additional houses.

No idea how you'd work that in practice but it really isn't something that sits comfortably with me.

[phonics]

Has Jezza turned Yevrah into a socialist?

He'll be calling to reclaim the means of production soon enough.

Welcome to the light side.

[Pepe]

People really shouldn't be allowed to make money out of owning additional houses.

Absolutely.

[Jimmy Floyd]

People really shouldn't be allowed to make money out of owning additional houses.

No idea how you'd work that in practice but it really isn't something that sits comfortably with me.

So you want to end rental?

[Spikey M]

There's a set of high rises near us that's made out of sandstone brick that has vines wrapped round the outside. Seriously one of the prettiest inner city buildings I've ever seen. I think it's one architect who did a series of apartments in the area. I haven't got a pic of the high rises but the appartment next to it is lush.

http://i.imgur.com/i7xXgv1.png

:sick:

[Spikey M]

People really shouldn't be allowed to make money out of owning additional houses.

No idea how you'd work that in practice but it really isn't something that sits comfortably with me.

Well, you could somehow force house prices down so that the mooks could afford them, but then no fucker would sell and no fucker would build new houses.

[Spammer]

I'm going to buy another house and then rent the one I've got out once I've got enough equity.

Come at me.

[Pepe]

The governmet could both build and sell new houses.

[Spikey M]

The governmet could both build and sell new houses.

No, they couldn't. As they have proven for the last, what, 3 decades?

[Pepe]

That they don't do something (or don't do it well) does not mean it is impossible for them to do it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The government builds and sells houses? In what market?

Are we nationalising builders, estate agents or both?

[phonics]

Isn't that because they decided to start subsidizing private housing associations instead of committing to building them?

Private Eye did a really interesting podcast on this recently. http://www.private-eye.co.uk/eyeplayer/play-332

[Yevrah]

Has Jezza turned Yevrah into a socialist?

He'll be calling to reclaim the means of production soon enough.

Welcome to the light side.

I know I'm often painted as a Tory arse hole, but I've never actually voted for them and I hold a number of liberal views.

[Yevrah]

So you want to end rental?

Like I said, no idea how in practice, but where I live people own as many as 15-20 houses, and landlords are stuffing people into them (turning living rooms into bedrooms etc) and it really isn't on.

[Pepe]

The government builds and sells houses? In what market?

Are we nationalising builders, estate agents or both?

All I said is that it is a possibility, not that it is happening, or that it should happen, or that it would be easy, or that it would be great. Simply that they could. But do go on.

[Shindig]

Nationalised housing would be great. Imagine the litigation flung at No.10's door.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Like I said, no idea how in practice, but where I live people own as many as 15-20 houses, and landlords are stuffing people into them (turning living rooms into bedrooms etc) and it really isn't on.

So in other words demand for housing hugely exceeds supply. Best thing is to look into what is causing the high demand and/or low supply.

[Pepe]

Like I said, no idea how in practice, but where I live people own as many as 15-20 houses, and landlords are stuffing people into them (turning living rooms into bedrooms etc) and it really isn't on.

Over here the university, through its three real state agencies, has bought the whole neighborhood, changed some windows, jacked up the prices by 50% and pushed everyone who isn't a student out. All of this tax free, of course, what with them being a non profit. I'm on one of the few non-university buildings left and I pay $300 less than most.

[Yevrah]

So in other words demand for housing hugely exceeds supply. Best thing is to look into what is causing the high demand and/or low supply.

Would demand exceed supply if people only owned one house?

[Spikey M]

Less so, but almost certainly.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Would demand exceed supply if people only owned one house?

Not unless they are currently being kept empty.

[Pepe]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/21/tens-thousands-london-homes-deemed-long-term-vacant

[Spikey M]

Plus, people just don't save. That's why most people rent. You could knock them all down to £50k and most mugs would still rather get a BMW on finance than save for a house.

[GS]

Uncontrolled immigration doesn't help either, but you won't see many people prepared to acknowledge that.

[Spikey M]

Or it's just so glaringly obvious that it doesn't need stating?

[Pepe]

More people = more demand. Who would've thought so!

[GS]

The solution is to "build more houses", as if nobody had thought of that before.

[John]

Uncontrolled immigration doesn't help either, but you won't see many people prepared to acknowledge that.

Alright, Harold. What did you think of London attacks?

[Spikey M]

Or to 'go back to your own country, shut the fackin' borders' which is equally original.

[phonics]

The podcast I listed previously goes into the demand argument and why there's not enough supply. Supply has never even matched demand when the government wasn't matching what private builders were building.

[GS]

Alright, Harold. What did you think of London attacks?

I'm talking about the availability of housing - no more, no less. There's problems in both supply and demand.

[Pepe]

At least the terrorists are working on fixing the demand side.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Demand side:
- Concentration in the south east as the north is an economic backwater (sorry, but it is)
- 300,000 immigrants per year

Supply side:
- Government has to build low margin housing but doesn't have the money without cutting other things that people will also moan about
- Small island
- You can't just build over everything

Corbyn, from the safety of opposition, has granted 'government' apparent magical powers.

[GS]

Are the left still vehemently opposed to building over the green belt?

[phonics]

'The left'

[GS]

The greens tend to be so, yes.

[phonics]

The greens tend to be so, yes.

http://i.imgur.com/ENrzm7g.png

Famous lefty. Do you think farmers in the South East all vote Green? Do you think everyone that watches Countryfile goes Labour? Conservationists aren't lefties, it probably spans the gamut of partisanship more than any other topic. But yes, please carry on trying to make a crass political point, you've been so spot on with your other pronouncements lately.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The problem with just building wherever is that they won't also upgrade infrastructure, particularly roads and schools, to accommodate the population increases.

[Pepe]

Building high density is better than sprawl anyway.

[phonics]

The problem with just building wherever is that they won't also upgrade infrastructure, particularly roads and schools, to accommodate the population increases.

https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/720/media/images/80027000/jpg/_80027397_spaghetti_junction_bbc.jpg

Sex.

[phonics]

Building high density is better than sprawl anyway.

British people won't live in apartments, everyone has to have a house for some reason, it's weird.

[Pepe]

:sick:

[Pepe]

British people won't live in apartments, everyone has to have a house for some reason, it's weird.

Same thing over here, apart from a handful of cities.

[Yevrah]

Jezza appears to be nailing it again as 'Mrs May' turns what should have been a bread and butter visit into something akin to an SS officer checking on camp progress.

She really needs some (better) advisers.

[Dquincy]

Has that story about making the building look better as not to offend wealthy eyes been confirmed? They might well have wanted it to look better for their own rental purposes, but it sounds a bit odd that an apparently ruthless, corner-cutting property company would spend millions of its hard pinched pennies appeasing people who don't rent any of its properties.

It's 100% bollocks, in my opinion. I work with several landlords of commercial buildings and apartment blocks. Not one of them would outlay CapEx unless it improved their own yield or rental. They could not give a fuck what the neighbours thought of it as long as there were no issues and the rent was being paid.

[Lewis]

There will never be 'enough' housing (where it is needed) because when there is an awful lot of people stand to lose an awful lot of money, and even Joseph Stalin's Labour Party recently kicked up a giant fucking stink about the prospect of wealthy homeowners having to pay for their own old age care, so don't expect that to change.

It's all about planning and perverse incentives towards under-using land (and the fact that you only get shit returns on every other kind of investment, but that won't be such an easy fix). You could build a million houses on something like three per cent of the London Green Belt, and anyone who has ever been on a train will know that five minutes out of any city station is all the land you could ever need; but between the landowners having no incentive to utilise what they have (land value tax mate), planning laws being a joke, and whatever else goes into it, nothing gets done.

[phonics]

Jezza appears to be nailing it again as 'Mrs May' turns what should have been a bread and butter visit into something akin to an SS officer checking on camp progress.

She really needs some (better) advisers.

875311424444260352

It's the political own goal equivalent of that one where the guy smashes the ball in off his own face.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm sure the distraught woman resident was a dyed in the wool true blue Tory before today.

[GS]

Jez has never been responsible for anything in his entire life, so it's easy to turn up and continue raging against the machine.

It'll be different in the third year of his premiership when we've introduced currency controls and the electricity supply only works from 10-6.

[Lewis]

It struck me during those floods a while back that they shouldn't even turn up to these things. They're not helping, they're in the way, and who actually wants to see fucking Jeremy Corbyn when their house has just gone up?

[Jimmy Floyd]

It struck me during those floods a while back that they shouldn't even turn up to these things. They're not helping, they're in the way, and who actually wants to see fucking Jeremy Corbyn when their house has just gone up?

The West Wing covers this (as it covers more or less any conceivable political leader scenario) when President Josiah Bartlet-Christ-Obama sneaks into some disaster relief centre in the middle of the night to help with the washing up, only for one of his aides (CJ I think) to appear and physically drag him away crying YOU ARE NO HELP HERE MISTER PRESIDENT.

[GS]

The logic of it doesn't matter. It's perception. May looks like distant and aloof, and this is an age where we shove microphones in distressed people's faces because it's a human interest story and it'll be "moving" and "powerful".

There are calls from certain nutjobs that we should start requisitioning 'empty' houses in the area for them. Yeah, because that's not the type of thing the Soviets would get up to.

[McAvennie]

Don't know which is worse, Maybot or Corbyn blurting accusations before anyone knows what's occurred in an attempt to score political points.

shambles

[Spikey M]

British people won't live in apartments, everyone has to have a house for some reason, it's weird.



I mean, who wouldn't want to live below some fat flat footed cunt in a place with no garden?

[7om]

It's the political own goal equivalent of that one where the guy smashes the ball in off his own face.

I bet old man Jeremy would've spoken to them. Every last one. And it would've made them feel a lot better about the situation as well.

[Disco]

I mean, who wouldn't want to live below some fat flat footed cunt in a place with no garden?

Yeah but every now and again he brings you a shoebox full of thoughtful gifts and pubic hair.

[phonics]

I bet old man Jeremy would've spoken to them. Every last one. And it would've made them feel a lot better about the situation as well.

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-06/15/9/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-03/sub-buzz-12503-1497533834-2.jpg


Alia Al-Ghabbom, who lives on the estate and is helping her friend search for his missing niece Jessica Urbano, met Corbyn inside the church. She told BuzzFeed News: "I live in the block next door. I just said, 'Thank you for being here, it really means a lot to us,' he was really emotional.

[Disco]

The West Wing covers this (as it covers more or less any conceivable political leader scenario) when President Josiah Bartlet-Christ-Obama sneaks into some disaster relief centre in the middle of the night to help with the washing up, only for one of his aides (CJ I think) to appear and physically drag him away crying YOU ARE NO HELP HERE MISTER PRESIDENT.

A tornado, and it was indeed CJ. I think he was trying to assuage the guilt of having a naughty terrorist man murdered.

[Lewis]

There are calls from certain nutjobs that we should start requisitioning 'empty' houses in the area for them. Yeah, because that's not the type of thing the Soviets would get up to.

Now including Jezza himself. Christ. What a twat.

[7om]

Alia Al-Ghabbom, who lives on the estate and is helping her friend search for his missing niece Jessica Urbano, met Corbyn inside the church. She told BuzzFeed News: "I live in the block next door. I just said, 'Thank you for being here, it really means a lot to us,' he was really emotional.

Is this the narrative you've stooped to now? Come on.

[phonics]

I had just read the article as I saw the post and I thought the irony was too good to miss up. I'm with Jim Waterson on this, I don't particularly care it just looks terrible. Compounded by the fact that she almost lost an election due to coming across as a robot with no emotions. It's really easy politics.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If Theresa did the same thing as Jeremy is doing there, she'd be accused of all sorts of vile things.

[John]

The logic of it doesn't matter. It's perception. May looks like distant and aloof, and this is an age where we shove microphones in distressed people's faces because it's a human interest story and it'll be "moving" and "powerful".

There are calls from certain nutjobs that we should start requisitioning 'empty' houses in the area for them. Yeah, because that's not the type of thing the Soviets would get up to.

The only time that approach has ever been justified was when that woman's little dog emerged from the wreckage after a tornado, and even then the camera crew looked like wankers for making sure they were getting a good angle on the struggling dog rather than helping it.

[Spikey M]

If Theresa did the same thing as Jeremy is doing there, she'd be accused of all sorts of vile things.

I bet she looks a right dick eating a sandwich.

[phonics]

If Theresa did the same thing as Jeremy is doing there, she'd be accused of all sorts of vile things.

Sounds like a win/win situation to me.

[Jimmy Floyd]

In fairness to Corbyn, a deadly tower block fire in a poor corner of otherwise rich west London, packed with ethnic minority and immigrant tenants, and caused in all probability by some form of evil building owner/Tory council not having put the right checks in place - all just after an election in which he gained seats - is as close to his ideal political scenario as you could possibly get. He's never going to not cash in on such an opportunity.

[Reg]

While it leaves a bitter taste for politicians to talk about cuts etc so soon and as ugly as it sounds, it's the best way to get people to notice. I'm not saying they should do it, they should put politics to one side, but if people heard Corbyn mention the fire two months from now would they have the same response?

Time for anecdotal evidence of the cuts' harm... An ex-fireman who's a distant relative of mine said the fire brigade have long been saying a disaster is waiting to happen, because the cuts meant that buildings didn't have firemen inspecting them - but their own inspectors or the council's.

[Dquincy]

It's not inspectors or the council that manage a commercial building's fire risk. The RRFSO (Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order 2005) states that a 'responsible person' shall be in charge to ensure the building's fire risk is assessed and managed by a suitably qualified person.

It used to be the fire brigade, but the above Order was issued over 10 yrs ago. Therefore, whenever you have an office building or a multi tenanted block of flats, the owner should have a designated person managing the fire risk. In my experience, this is not a high priority for them and in some circumstances, they are unaware that they have this responsibility. Which is very worrying.

[Disco]

It's not inspectors or the council that manage a commercial building's fire risk. The RRFSO (Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order 2005) states that a 'responsible person' shall be in charge to ensure the building's fire risk is assessed and managed by a suitably qualified person.

It used to be the fire brigade, but the above Order was issued over 10 yrs ago. Therefore, whenever you have an office building or a multi tenanted block of flats, the owner should have a designated person managing the fire risk. In my experience, this is not a high priority for them and in some circumstances, they are unaware that they have this responsibility. Which is very worrying.

Aha! So Labour killed all those people.

[Pepe]

Yeah but every now and again he brings you a shoebox full of thoughtful gifts and pubic hair.

:D

a

[Dquincy]

Aha! So Labour killed all those people.

Well played.

[John]

'Several hundred' in the building and 68 rescued are ominous numbers. Where are all the others.

Having said that, the Times front page that I've just seen is disgusting. Have some respect.

The Daily Record have one upped them by releasing what's thought to be that same man's final fucking phone call.

[GS]

Now including Jezza himself. Christ. What a twat.

He's basically advocating the abolition of property right. From the man who 'could' be Prime Minister, if the country suffers some sort of collective mass convulsion. It's absolutely laughable - student union shite.

[Yevrah]

If the official death toll stays at 17 for much longer I'm calling shenanigans.

[Lewis]

They have to get in there and start counting first.

[Yevrah]

There are pictures all over the news of them being in there - but fair point, that can't be a quick thing to do.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Counting ash can't be easy.

[Lewis]

Lily Allen was on the news earlier (obviously) claiming that police and firemen had told her (obviously) that anywhere up to 150 were dead, and accusing the government of officially playing it down to stop everyone kicking off. Jon Snow of all people had to explain to her how it works.

[7om]

Lily Allen has been embarrassing herself on Twitter for ages now.

[Lewis]

She does seem a bit dense, but I always lol at idiots telling her to 'stick to music' as they clear the way for their own top notch analysis.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Between Adele, Jeremy Corbyn and Lily Allen pitching up on the scene it's a surprise most of the dead haven't yet been resurrected. Taking their sweet time about it.

It'll be approx 100 but they're not saying that or you'll get some sort of Broadwater Farm riot scenario breaking out.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Jesus, this requisitioning private houses stuff is terrifying. There are probably 120 families (minus the dead ones) that need rehousing, there is literally a 0% chance that Kensington & Chelsea don't have that sort of housing stock available, and even if they somehow don't then neighbouring boroughs will.

The state deciding on a whim that it can seize private property is a very slippery slope and yet Corbyn is aboard that bandwagon with utter glee.

[GS]

You're on very, very sketchy ground with it.

You expect it from David Lammy, but you can't have the leader of the opposition wandering about demanding the arbitrary abolition of property right when the state fancies it.

[phonics]

How about charging them lots and lots and lots and lots of tax if they say, had an empty bedroom? Something around 14% of their weekly rent?

[GS]

There's a difference in law, as you well know.

[phonics]

There's a difference in law, as you well know.

In these austere times, we all have to chip in together as part of the bigger society. Give me your house.

[GS]

You can't have the state requisitioning houses. You can't have prominent politicians advocating it as a serious solution.

He's fucking mental.

[phonics]

Give me your house.

[Yevrah]

Requisitioning houses is mental and presumably also totally unnecessary.

[phonics]

Swear down listen to that podcast I linked earlier up. The state of the homeless is properly depressingly fucked.

[Yeldoow]

I think it depends a lot on the detail whether this could be acceptable.

First it's worth noting that they are talking about empty properties, no-one is suggesting chucking "rich" people out of their homes.

I don't think that it could ever be acceptable for the government to seize private property just because they want to use it for something else, no matter how noble their intentions may be. If the plans were that the flats/houses would remain the property of their owners but that they would be required to allow the government/council to use them to temporarily house these people that would be a different thing.

If moving forward they want to bring in some new law/regulation/tax/other to prevent/discourage people from owning and keeping homes empty I think a good case could be made for that.

It would of course be far better if the council just had sufficient housing stock that they could re-home these people without resorting to anything like this.

[Disco]

I don't think anyone has remotely thought it through, it's a soundbite for the news (and the credulous) nothing more.

[Boydy]

Compulsory purchase orders are being used all the time in London to essentially clear out old social housing estates (and some people own their homes within those) to make way for 'regeneration' which just results in expensive flats that the people who lived there before could never afford.

If it's okay to do it to the poor, we can sure as fuck do it to the rich to provide accommodation for people whose lives have been devastated.

[Jimmy Floyd]

That's a massive non-sequitur (why can't one oppose both?). Corbyn-style arguments seem to be driven by pure emotion.

[GS]

Compulsory purchase orders are being used all the time in London to essentially clear out old social housing estates (and some people own their homes within those) to make way for 'regeneration' which just results in expensive flats that the people who lived there before could never afford.

If it's okay to do it to the poor, we can sure as fuck do it to the rich to provide accommodation for people whose lives have been devastated.

This is just stupid.

First thing's first, there would be a considerable notice period for the owners to object to any CPO process. Assuming you managed to get through that process (you wouldn't), they're multi million pound properties. They'd get market value, so the council would have to pay tens of millions of pounds.

You can't just take the houses, because it's against the HRA and the home owners would sue. They'd sue, they'd win, and they'd clean the council out for millions in compensation.

This sort of thinking is why the Corbyn nutter fringe is dangerous.

[phonics]

http://i.imgur.com/9i7gCdw.png
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital?CMP=twt_a-media_b-gdnmedia

Scum. Leveson Part 7 million the fuck out of them.

[GS]

http://i.imgur.com/9i7gCdw.png
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital?CMP=twt_a-media_b-gdnmedia

Scum. Leveson Part 7 million the fuck out of them.

Your solution is to limit the free press?

[Lewis]

Those hyper-capitalists at the London School of Economics published a report on overseas buyers the other week, and they found that less than one per cent of new housing is bought and left empty by foreigners, and that that is more than out-weighed by the investment that these developments attract from abroad. Personally I find blaming foreigners for under-investment in our public services and infrastructure quite distasteful, but each to their own.

[Spammer]

Your solution is to limit the free press?

They're already limited. People just disagree on where the line should be drawn.

[phonics]

Your solution is to limit the free press?

That's a laughable response.

[Henry]

That's a massive non-sequitur (why can't one oppose both?).

Why don't you then? If this suggestion signals the collapse of western civilisation as is being implied, then surely you're up in arms about what's already going on?

[Magic]

Confirmed as 30 deaths so far.

Number expected to rise, in line with Yevrah's erection.

[GS]

They're already limited. People just disagree on where the line should be drawn.

Did I say this wasn't the case?

[Henry]

Confirmed as 30 deaths so far.

Number expected to rise, in line with Yevrah's erection.

I know it's no laughing matter but :D

We need a TTH quotes thread...

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why don't you then? If this suggestion signals the collapse of western civilisation as is being implied, then surely you're up in arms about what's already going on?

There's only so much one man can do, Henners.

[GS]

"Peston" has decided that the fire "shames us all". Because reasons.

[John]

Lol at Magic making jokes about someone else being aroused by tragedy.

Lilly Allen doesn't seem to understand how anything works. Is she eager to write those unaccounted for off as dead? Does she want counting the dead and getting a number out to take precedence over all else?

[Jimmy Floyd]

"Peston" has decided that the fire "shames us all". Because reasons.

I preferred the 'let's lynch the nearest Frenchman' response to the 1666 fire.

[Disco]

If that turned out to Arsene Wenger there might be some mileage in that.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've just seen a 'thread' (ugh) on twitter which reaches its climax with: 'That black husk is a monument to our apathy to inequality, our othering of poor people'.

[bruhnaldo]

Lily Allen will do literally anything for attention it seems.

I still can't get over the "Hard Out Here" song she put out where she tried to lump herself in with basically every still relevant female singer on the planet 8 years after anyone outside of England gave a single fuck about her.

[Spammer]

Did I say this wasn't the case?

The sentence 'So your solution is to limit the free press?' suggests that you felt that it wasn't already limited.

[GS]

Further limit. Your inference was incorrect.

The Sun have gone big on denial, however. Perhaps people have been making stuff up in the rush to be outraged.

[phonics]

Yeah, it would be really out of character of The Sun to lie about such a thing. Better to blame hospital workers.

[Spammer]

Yes ok, further limit. You didn't say that though.

[GS]

Yes ok, further limit. You didn't say that though.

I think we all have to assume a very basic level of understanding on such things.

[Spammer]

I think we all have to assume a very basic level of understanding on such things.

How about just saying what you actually mean in an unambiguous way? I responded to the words that you actually wrote, and I'm afraid that's all anyone can do.

My hunch remains that you want to remain ambiguous because being obfuscating and imprecise with meaning gives you something to hide behind. I'm only guessing though, I don't know. You seem pretty intelligent so I don't believe that can't express yourself better. Maybe It's basic snobbery as you can try to convince yourself that people don't understand you because you're so much better than them, rather than it being due to your own inability to express yourself clearly. You show this sentiment almost constantly, but I can't know if that's it. It's a bit daft though if a dialogue is actually what you want, which is why I'm a little confused by it all and why I think you're not actually interested in a dialogue but your own pompous ego.

[GS]

Fucking hell.

[7om]

Dat amateur psychology.

[Henry]

It isn't limiting the free press to stop scumbags like Sun reporters from impersonating people to gain access to things they shouldn't. Surely that's illegal anyway?

[phonics]

He's nailed you there tbf.

[Spikey M]

How about just saying what you actually mean in an unambiguous way? I responded to the words that you actually wrote, and I'm afraid that's all anyone can do.

My hunch remains that you want to remain ambiguous because being obfuscating and imprecise with meaning gives you something to hide behind. I'm only guessing though, I don't know. You seem pretty intelligent so I don't believe that can't express yourself better. Maybe It's basic snobbery as you can try to convince yourself that people don't understand you because you're so much better than them, rather than it being due to your own inability to express yourself clearly. You show this sentiment almost constantly, but I can't know if that's it. It's a bit daft though if a dialogue is actually what you want, which is why I'm a little confused by it all and why I think you're not actually interested in a dialogue but your own pompous ego.

Hi Smiff

[GS]

He's nailed you there tbf.

Hardly. He's prone to going off the deep end in such fashion. It's bizarre, but no more so than some of his other disclosures on here.

[Spammer]

Fucking hell.

Just saying it how I see it. You seem really desperate to talk down to everyone rather than engage in a proper dialogue, and I think you deliberaitely talk in such a way that brings about more opportunities for doing that. It's the internet that enables it if that is it, as I'm sure you wouldn't do that to people in person because you'd get found out immediately.


Dat amateur psychology.

I get paid for my counselling, if that's anything.

[Spammer]

Hardly.

It's a matter of opinion, I suppose. He thinks I have.

[John]

I get paid for my counselling, if that's anything.

It isn't.

[Spikey M]

Hammer, after Bruhnaldo you are the most unstable member we have left. That said, Hannibal was also a counsellor so I guess it makes sense.

[Spammer]

Hammer, after Bruhnaldo you are the most unstable member we have left. That said, Hannibal was also a counsellor so I guess it makes sense.

Hannibal was a psychiatrist, and the novel is a commentary on psychiatry as a profession as much as anything else. Psychiatry and counselling are at different ends of the spectrum.

What do you mean by unstable? I'm calm and feeling fine. Are you stable? How do you know?

[Spammer]

It isn't.

I was mentioning it just in case. It might be, you know. We'll have to wait and see what he thinks.

[Spikey M]

And how does that make you feel?

[Spammer]

And how does that make you feel?

Hang on, you're avoiding the question.

How do you know that you're stable?

[Spikey M]

Mainly because I don't go on uninvited protracted rants on forums.

[Pepe]

Someone burn this thread with fire.

[Spikey M]

Pepe isn't stable. :(

[Spammer]

Mainly because I don't go on uninvited protracted rants on forums.

That's a negative; you're still avoiding the question, because people can go on rants for all kinds of reasons without it suggesting anything about them in general. It's just shitty reasoning, really.

What positive characteristic about yourself makes you so certain that you're stable?

[Spikey M]

Do you reckon I might be avoiding the question because I'm not interested in having a mentalist judge me?

[Spammer]

And yet you're perfectly interested in judging them?

Hypocrisy.

[Lewis]

GS is about the least ambiguous poster here. You're just daft.

[bruhnaldo]

Unstable. I see.

[Spammer]

GS is about the least ambiguous poster here. You're just daft.

That clears that one up. Thanks.

Edit: My responding to what he said and him being condescending because he actually meant something that he didn't actually say, kinda sums up my whole point really.

[Spammer]

I still feel like Orwell nailed it in his essay 'Politics and the English Language'.

http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit

[Disco]

Hammer doesn't seem unstable.

[Disco]

Also lol at the reference to 'other disclosures', as if that makes any difference.

[phonics]

Watching what's happening on the ground, have a feeling this is going to properly bubble over.

[Spikey M]

Riots? :drool:

[Boydy]

The revolution is beginning.

[Disco]

Bugger that, I'm not doing any rebellion until Monday at least.

[John]

I'm surprised it's taken this long, there were five days of looting when the police shot some whopper in a taxi. It'll be good when someone inevitably sets a furniture shop on fire and a pundit tries to ascribe symbolic intent to a kid with a stolen bike and a Zippo.

[niko_cee]

I see the queen was mooching around there today. Why don't they all just go and live in her house for a while?

[Dark Soldier]

https://i.imgur.com/8r8LEbsl.jpg

Can someone end Boris please.

[Lewis]

That clears that one up. Thanks.

Edit: My responding to what he said and him being condescending because he actually meant something that he didn't actually say, kinda sums up my whole point really.

Like he said, 'we all have to assume a very basic level of understanding on such things'. It's like somebody saying they think drugs should be legal, and you pointing out that paracetamols already are.

[GS]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCdHCuCWsAAG9Kw.jpg

:harold:

They're going to be gutted when they realise there are actual laws against it.

[Dark Soldier]

Fucking hilarious innit!

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'd almost like to see Corbyn and McDonnell get a go at government. Not so easy now, is it lads.

[Magic]

What a weird stance GS has on this. Let's hope his house burns down.

[randomlegend]

Stupid idiots with their burnt down homes and lives destroyed.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

[7om]

It is actually, A ludicrous idea.

[Dark Soldier]

What a weird stance GS has on this. Let's hope his house burns down.

I genuinely used to like the geezer but he's a fucking bellend. Fair fucks though he's consistent.

[John]

Right, the 'they' GS was talking about was obviously the victims of the fire who are sleeping in a leisure centre, and not the twonks voting in that Twitter poll or Corbyn and his mates.

[Magic]

The Syrian refugee dude dying was a genuine fuck life moment.

[7om]

Stupid idiots with their burnt down homes and lives destroyed.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

If that was aimed at GS you've missed his point spectacularly.

[Dark Soldier]

Right, the 'they' GS was talking about was obviously the victims of the fire who are sleeping in a leisure centre, and not the twonks voting in that Twitter poll or Corbyn and his mates.

I think that was fairly obvious. A lot of it just reads like he's lubing up at the whole situation, getting to hammer home the real truth.

[phonics]

Bloomberg has just posted one of the most hilariously tone deaf articles I've ever seen called 'Beware Blaming Government for London Tower Fire'.

It's not a repudiation of the argument that the regulations in place were fit to purpose.

Instead, it includes a section saying that appropriate fire safety regulations would result in more expensive housing forcing people to live further out and therefore making them more likely to have to commute to work via car and therefore more likely to die in a car accident.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-16/beware-of-blaming-government-for-london-tower-fire

[GS]

I think that was fairly obvious. A lot of it just reads like he's lubing up at the whole situation, getting to hammer home the real truth.

I'm really not. However, I've just about had my fill of very angry people making absolutely no effort to be informed. Why are YouGov asking such a pointedly stupid question? How can you possibly have 59% of respondents 'support' the idea that the state should be able to requisition homes on a whim when they fancy it, even though it would be illegal? How can you have a leader of the opposition advocating actions that are (a) against existing law and (b) would represent the effective abolition of property right?

He should have been torn apart for even suggesting it - instead we appear to have infantilised the electorate to such an extent they don't even have it in them to question its legality, never mind its fairness.

[Lewis]

And there is still the fucking charity single to come.

[Lewis]

'And there won't be homes in Kensington this Christmas time...'

[John]

'And there won't be homes in Kensington this Christmas time...'

:D

Any word on what they're actually doing? Hopefully Talking Heads gets involved.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Anarchists tooling up apparently. How to be counter productive.